1 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: What do you remember about the movie chap Aquatic. 2 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: Well, it took me right back to the event itself. 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: I remember the breaking news. I remember my mother saying, 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: of course he killed that girl. I remember the actor 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: portraying Ted Kennedy, how he was doing all the things 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: that he did, and he was able to get away 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: with the doll. Everybody accepted his cover up. 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 3: Which I wasn't surprised by the power that the wealthy 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 3: people have and that people in power have over to citizens. 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: I remember how insane it seemed that he could just 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 3: go to a motel and then just walk out of 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 3: there and go have breakfast and be on the phone 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 3: things like that. 14 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 4: I'm George Severis, I'm Lyarra Smith, and this. 15 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 5: Is United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 5: fascination with the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into 17 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 5: one aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 5: talking about the twenty eighteen movie chap Equittic. So you 19 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 5: might be familiar with the events that happened on chap 20 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 5: Equittic Island, which we covered in our second episode. So 21 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 5: if you haven't listened, you can go back and listen 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 5: to that first because the events are complicated, and I'm 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 5: not even going into the various conspiracy theories. But today 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 5: we are talking about the movie. The twenty eighteen movie chap. 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: Equittic, directed by John Curran, starring Jason Clark and Kate Mara. 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: Chap Equittick depicts the most popular version of the events 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: of July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, when Ted Kennedy drove 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: his car into poach Upon and left Marry Joe Kopecne 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: in the submerged car. He never alerted authorities, and her 30 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: body was found in the car the following morning. 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 5: Jason Clark as Ted Kennedy spends the rest of the 32 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 5: movie trying to save his political career, while the death 33 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 5: of Mary Jokopecne quickly becomes just another Kennedy crisis to 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 5: be solved by a team of fixers. 35 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: And spoiler alert of sorts. We did not love this movie. 36 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 5: One thing I will say about this movie is that 37 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 5: there are actors in it and they are saying lines 38 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 5: and no one can ever take that away from them. 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 5: It was a movie that has a beginning, a middle, 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 5: and an end, and Kate Mara is phenomenal in it. 41 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: And so is it helms that's true. Helping us dissect 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: the movie today is Jason Concepcion, writer, critic, and host 43 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: of the podcast X ray Vision. Jason, thanks for joining 44 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: us today. 45 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. 46 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: We are really excited to talk about the movie chap 47 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: Equittic with you. 48 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 5: What an uplifting film, Yes, an uplifting film. It maybe 49 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 5: believe most of all in the power of the movies. 50 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 5: I do want to get into the movie because at 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 5: first I thought I would have nothing to say about it, 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 5: and I really struggled to come up with cohering questions 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 5: because the experience of watching this movie feel is like 54 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 5: you are in the process of watching it and you're like, 55 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 5: should we put a movie on you? Forget that you're 56 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 5: actually watching a movie. Yeah. So I want to get 57 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 5: into that, but before we do, I want to first 58 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 5: talk about the relationship of the film and the real 59 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 5: world events of chap Equittic. So Larry and I a 60 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 5: few months ago did an episode on the actual events 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 5: of Chepiquittic. We had an expert on we like did 62 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 5: all our research. I would say it's one of those 63 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 5: events where the more you read about it, the less 64 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 5: sure you are what happened, and so this movie is 65 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 5: as good a take as any. But I'm wondering, like, 66 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 5: what did you think of the adaptation of real life 67 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 5: events as an adaptation? 68 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 4: You know, I found it to kind of briefly touch 69 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 4: on your comments about being the type of movie where 70 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 4: you're watching it and want to put a movie on. 71 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 4: I thought it interesting the choices that the filmmaker decided 72 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 4: to make with regards to depicting the death of Mary 73 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 4: Jo Kopecney by drowning in this vehicle driven by Ted 74 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 4: Theodore Kennedy, and the kind of unwillingness to make decisions 75 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 4: about anything else that I think would be kind of interesting. 76 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 4: You know, I don't know. I think the Kennedy's are 77 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 4: really interesting. If you know nothing about Chapiquittic, this could 78 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 4: have been any guy. He could be a banker, he 79 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 4: could be a famous film director, he could be just 80 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 4: any rich guy. And so I guess I think that 81 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 4: this was as good a take as any, And I 82 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 4: agree with you. It's one of those things where it's 83 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 4: Ted and her. She died in the incident and Ted 84 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 4: was shitfaced, So what do you really know? And so 85 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 4: I thought the scenes depicting Mary Joe's tragic death were 86 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 4: I felt probably the most affecting stuff actually in the movie, 87 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 4: the only thing that I was responding to. I'm not 88 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 4: going to say I responded positively to the emotional impact 89 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 4: of it, but it was the only thing where I'm 90 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 4: leaning in and going Okay, maybe that's the way it happened. Yeah. 91 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: One of my questions for the group is going to 92 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: be is the filmmaker making a point? What point is 93 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: he making? 94 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 4: I don't know. I think if mister Kurran had a point, 95 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 4: he might have forgotten what it was, or it might 96 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 4: have gotten so lost in the Don't piss Off Anybody 97 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 4: instincts from the studio and others that it got lost. 98 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 4: I'm not sure what the point is. I guess the 99 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 4: point was here is a talented guy who killed someone 100 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 4: and then ruined his career in the process. But which 101 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 4: is interesting about the Kennedys is why we know all 102 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 4: the stuff about the dad and him being a bootlegger 103 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,799 Speaker 4: and John F. Kennedy and the mistresses and the drinking 104 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 4: and YadA, YadA YadA. Why do they want to be 105 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 4: in public life? Like? Why do they Is he good 106 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 4: at it? Did he have some kind of greater beliefs 107 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 4: in democracy in the United State. YadA, YadA, YadA. 108 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: You never get that. 109 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 4: I don't know anything about this guy, and so well, 110 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 4: I don't know. I left this movie confused about what 111 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 4: we just did. 112 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, just to summarize, really, because we've talked about Chepiquitic 113 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: on a previous episode, we got a new to me 114 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: at the time theory or presentation of the series of events. 115 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: But just so you know, anyone who hasn't seen this movie, 116 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: what is depicted in the movie is they're having the party, 117 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: Ted and Mary Joe leave to go talk, and then 118 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: they're in a car and then he's driving really fast. 119 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: It's not even super clear as to why he's driving 120 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: really fast. They're spotted by a cop, but there isn't 121 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: a problem. He just starts driving like a bat out 122 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: of hell, crashes into the pond, and then leaves her there, 123 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: goes back to the party, gets his cousin slash lawyer, 124 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: gets his friend, They try to get her out, it 125 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: doesn't happen, and then Ted walks through the next few hours. 126 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: Well. 127 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 5: They tell him that he should report it to the police. 128 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 5: He tells them he will, but doesn't. 129 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 4: Take and then eight or nine hours for him, and. 130 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 5: Then the body is discovered by passers by, and then 131 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 5: they discover that the car is registered under Ted Kennedy's name. 132 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: So that's the version of events that is being portrayed 133 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: in this movie is kind of the classic story of chepiquidit. 134 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: We've heard some other versions, just so anybody who hasn't 135 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: seen it knows that's what. 136 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 5: And also it endorses the idea that she maybe didn't 137 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 5: drown but in fact in the air bubble. Yes, because 138 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 5: there was an air bubble and she theoretically there's a 139 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 5: chance she could have been saved if Ted had gone 140 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 5: and sought help earlier, which is of course people that 141 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 5: are mad at Ted Kennedy say that he was responsible 142 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 5: for her death two times over, once for crashing the 143 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 5: car and twice for What. 144 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 4: Are your thoughts on that? From my perspective, whether she 145 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 4: died in the air bubble or she died by drowning, 146 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 4: we're thin slicing it. Now. It's like his fault. 147 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 5: I mean, he was drunk driving and drove a car 148 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 5: off a bridge, So it's sort of. 149 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: Like it's involuntary manslaughter. 150 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 5: For sure, it's so, but reading engages what's interesting about 151 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 5: this movie. One of our last movie episodes was about 152 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 5: Oliver Stone's JFK, and Oliver Stones JFK does something very different, 153 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 5: which is that it really goes all in on the 154 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 5: conspiracy theorizing, which is like enjoyable and thrilling to watch 155 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 5: even if you don't buy the conspiracy theory because it's 156 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 5: just made in this coked out crazy way. This movie 157 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 5: is almost the opposite, where it is very careful not 158 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 5: to go into conspiracy theorizing, so much so that it 159 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 5: ends up being like a straightforward chronological account of events. 160 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 5: And I wish this filmmaker was crazier. I wish she 161 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 5: had some crazy theory. 162 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: Literally thought to myself, I wish Oliver Stone had directed this. 163 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 5: But I do want to go back to your point, Jason, 164 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 5: about the mystery at the core of who Ted Kennedy is. 165 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 5: Because we know that this fan is committed to being 166 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 5: public servants, is committed to politics, So why what is 167 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 5: the reason why? And I actually think on paper, the 168 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 5: portrayal of Ted Kennedy is interesting in terms of those 169 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 5: questions because he basically says I was not the chosen son, 170 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 5: which was Joe Kennedy. Junior. I was not the charismatic one, 171 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 5: which was Jack, but I'm the only one you have, 172 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 5: and so this is the best you're going to get. 173 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 5: And there is something just cinematic and tragic about that. 174 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 5: If done well, somehow, it doesn't quite land. 175 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: I agree with you. That's a scene of him just 176 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 4: saying who he is. It would have been nice to 177 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 4: see that played out in some sort of scene where 178 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 4: get an understanding of him, but that never appears. 179 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 5: No, the closest we get is the fact that he 180 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 5: is just passive and not canny the entire time. You 181 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 5: do get the sense that he's not a good politician, 182 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 5: so to speak. And I think what makes the whole 183 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 5: thing even more interesting, and this is not the movie 184 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 5: just Ted Kennedy as a person, is that he's portray 185 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 5: is the least charismatic and the least talented of the bunch, 186 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 5: and yet he is the one that had the longest 187 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 5: and most consequential political career, like sure, undoubtedly the fourth 188 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,359 Speaker 5: longest serving member of the Senate, as we were informed 189 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 5: by the end credits. So there is something interesting about that, 190 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 5: And you're like, just give me something. 191 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 4: I kept coming back to it. My first note was 192 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: so who are then? Who are they? Again? This could 193 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 4: have been a story about any person, any powerful person. 194 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 4: And by the way, have you done Thirteen Days yet? 195 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 5: No? No, but it is on our list. 196 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 4: I think Thirteen Days might be the one because you 197 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 4: know it's jfk and Roberts, so he's the Attorney General 198 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 4: at the time, so you get an idea of what 199 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 4: they're like together. But I think it's the only one 200 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 4: where you get the sense of who they are, And 201 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 4: that's the only thing that's interesting to me, the only 202 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 4: real mystery about the Kennedys. Who the fuck are these weirdos? 203 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 4: What drives them? They've been around for so long? Why 204 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 4: do they want to serve the pub Do they have 205 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 4: any beliefs that they actually hold on to dearly? And 206 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 4: you get that they're ambitious, and in this movie, he's 207 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 4: telling you that he's ambitious and that people have a 208 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 4: lot invested in his success. But you never get into 209 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 4: the interior of the person. And that's the same with 210 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 4: every single Kennedy film depiction on film, and it's very 211 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 4: frustrating to me. 212 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just so many scenes that are him silently 213 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: alone thinking maybe, yeah. 214 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 5: Well he loves burying his head in his hands. That's 215 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 5: sort of this classic signature move. 216 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 6: We're going to take a short break, stay with. 217 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: Us, and we're back with the United States of Kennedy. 218 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 5: It's funny because, again, a lot of what we're describing 219 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 5: is by design. It just doesn't land like. It is 220 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 5: true that he's meant to be this cowardly, tragic figure. 221 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 5: It is true that he is indecisive, he doesn't stand 222 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 5: for anything. He is, as we learn in the very 223 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 5: first scene of him being interviewed, he's in the shadow 224 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 5: of his brother. He's not meant to be a hero 225 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 5: we're rooting for, but then he's not quite the villain, 226 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 5: and so you're like, okay, well, if just narratively speaking, 227 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 5: if he's not our hero or our villain, then we 228 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 5: need some other big, bombastic personality, Like we need someone 229 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 5: like Joe Peshi and JFK that comes in and does 230 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 5: something that we can sort of like grasp onto. 231 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: At one point I wrote down, who is the protagonist? Yes, 232 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: it's like such a silly question, but I did feel 233 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: that way watching it. It's so dryly depicted that he 234 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: is the bad guy. He's greedy. I mean, I don't 235 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: know if greedy is exactly the right word, but ambitious 236 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: to the point of just wanting power without caring about 237 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: other people. I mean, this is how he's being pretty 238 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: presented based on his reaction to killing someone. 239 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 5: But I also think he's being presented as a son 240 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 5: trying to please his dad, Like I don't think he's 241 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 5: some ambition. 242 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: Well, as I'm saying, it's like, this is what it's 243 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: supposed to be, I believe portraying in all of the 244 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: second half of the movie, while his focus just becomes 245 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: how do I get out of this? How do I 246 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: just save my political career? And then you see him 247 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: losing all of his emotional and familial connections to anyone 248 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: else around him that he had in the beginning. But 249 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: it's just so neutral on it. 250 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 4: I completely back to the point about there being no stance. 251 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 4: Here's a stance. I think Ted Kennedy had a uplifting 252 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 4: vision for the United States that he really cared about, 253 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 4: and when he was going to be present, he was 254 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 4: going to pull set of it whatever and make the 255 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 4: country better. And the tragedy, in addition to the death 256 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 4: of Mary Joe, is that he threw that all away 257 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 4: on this drunken evening. That's a take. Another take is 258 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 4: Ted Kennedy was a piece of shit who we dodged 259 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 4: one with Chap equittic because he would have been a 260 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 4: piece of shit president. But instead we don't know, like 261 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 4: there is no stance in that regard, and it does 262 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 4: feel to me as if, shockingly in the middle of 263 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 4: the film they want to make it about fathers and 264 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 4: sons and pleasing Dad. And that is the point where 265 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 4: the movie veers dangerously towards comedy, the reveal of Bruce 266 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 4: Dern when they wheel him out. I'm sorry, but I 267 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 4: was laughing. 268 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, I know. It's tough because there's also so many 269 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 5: opportunities to have other slightly comedic or humorous elements. I mean, 270 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 5: you have Ed Helms and Jim Gaffigan, like ratchet up 271 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 5: those performances and have the various goons, the various Kennedy 272 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 5: hanger ons be more big and campy and interesting. You 273 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 5: can have one person telling Tim to do this thing 274 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 5: and the other person telling him to do this thing, 275 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 5: and they're both kind of stereotypical Boston guys or something, 276 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 5: but they're actually all giving pretty grounded performances for what 277 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 5: they are. So then when you get Bruce Derton drooling, 278 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 5: you can't help but be like, finally someone's committing. 279 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 4: What's going for it? Yeah? 280 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, But yet it doesn't land as the dramatic moment 281 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 5: that it's supposed to be. 282 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: I did think ed Helms was really good. 283 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 5: I thought I thought all the actors were perfectly competent. 284 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 5: What frustrated me about this movie is that there's an 285 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 5: uncanny Valley like quality to it, because everything is almost good. 286 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 5: The main guy looks like he almost is a famous actor. 287 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 5: It's shot in a way that implies it could be 288 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 5: a big Oscar movie. There are stakes, it's about historical figures. 289 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 5: It's competently made, it's competently acted, and yet at every 290 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 5: point you're like, oh, give me thirty percent more. 291 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: The way that it is shot, the way that it 292 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: is framed in most scenes, was confusing to me. It's 293 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: a shot that I think is supposed to mean something, 294 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: but I couldn't understand what it is. The camera it's 295 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: almost like everyone's chest is the bottom of the frame 296 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: and the camera is at a bit of an angle, 297 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: tilted back, and they do it over and over and 298 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: over again. Anytime there's an individual just delivering a line 299 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: to a group of people, which happens like every other 300 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: scene the police chief ted ed Helms. It happens over 301 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: and over again, and the way that it's shot, I 302 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: kept thinking, why, what does that mean? What am I 303 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: supposed to think? And I'm still lost on what that 304 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: choice was. 305 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 5: I think it goes back to what both of you 306 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 5: were saying about the lack of commitment to a vision 307 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 5: like this movie almost feels like it was made to 308 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 5: be shown in schools to teach kids about historical creth. 309 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,119 Speaker 4: That's a great comp. 310 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 5: To what end, because it's not like, Oh, they sanitize 311 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 5: it because they didn't want to upset the Kennedy's. The 312 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 5: Kennedy family was upset. The right wing commentators did embrace 313 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 5: the movie like anything you would try to change it 314 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 5: to avoid did happen. So the only thing that the 315 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 5: tampering of the drama did was make sure that the 316 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 5: movie bombed. 317 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: The first thing that I do after every movie that 318 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: I watch is go to Reddit and just see what 319 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: people thought. And what was interesting about this was that 320 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: I could find so few posts about it, and all 321 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 1: of them, except for one or two, was a conservative group, 322 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: like some conservative subreddit, and They all were saying, finally 323 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: Hollywood goes after the Democrats for once. 324 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: You know. 325 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: It was like this weird triumphant thing to them, that 326 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: this true story was told, as if that's not what 327 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: happens in historical dramas. 328 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 4: Everything. 329 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, but the response to this movie was that it 330 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 5: was embraced by a certain right wing people like Rush 331 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 5: Limbaugh talked about it a lot, whatever. And then as 332 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 5: a response to that, there was some sort of finger 333 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 5: wagging on the left where there was an op ed 334 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 5: in the Times by Neil Gabbler, who wrote a biography 335 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 5: of Ted Kennedy, and he was like, this movie is 336 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 5: sensationalist and it spreads these lies and conspiracy theories. And 337 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 5: I read that this morning. I was like, if only, yeah, 338 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 5: I wish, you know, we would it was age. Yeah, 339 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 5: So it's this funny thing where the right wing commentators 340 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 5: just will latch onto anything that seems like it's for 341 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 5: their cause. And then a couple of people basically fell 342 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 5: for the bait and felt the needs of disown the 343 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 5: film or defend it or whatever. And then meanwhile audiences 344 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 5: didn't care. 345 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not worth it. 346 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 4: It's a boring movie that repeats three core scenes again 347 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 4: and again, Ted alone sitting with his head in his 348 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 4: hands or staring at something and you don't know what 349 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 4: he's thinking. Ted addressing the room full of guys who 350 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 4: he's like, how do I get out of this one 351 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 4: guys and they're pitching him ideas, and then they're outside 352 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 4: around where the accident is. That's basically every scene in 353 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 4: this movie, to the point that if you look away 354 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 4: and come back, you're like, do we go somewhere else 355 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 4: and come back to this or is this still going? 356 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 4: I came away feeling the chronological decision is really strange 357 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 4: to me. I came away feeling like they should have 358 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 4: Birdman this movie one shot from the evening and the 359 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 4: accident all the way through, right, So I am arguing 360 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 4: with the people now. The tension is building just by 361 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 4: the fact that you're watching this without any cuts, but 362 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 4: the fact that they cut but still went chronologically. It 363 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 4: gives you this formless, void of a feeling of a 364 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: movie with no acts and no beginning and no end 365 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 4: that just keeps. 366 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 5: Going totally No. It felt like it was honestly trying 367 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 5: to avoid cliches and sensationalism to a fault, because there 368 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 5: are many sort of cliche ways you could frame it. There's, 369 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 5: for example, a very obvious one is to do an 370 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 5: interview with Ted Kennedy and then flashbacks as he's doing 371 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 5: the interview. That's actually what they did for Pablo Laurian's Jackie, 372 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 5: which we just discussed a couple of weeks ago. You 373 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 5: could have it be jumping back and forth and play 374 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 5: with time. Could have it told from different perspectives and 375 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 5: have the cliche be that everyone had a different experience 376 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 5: of this event. You could do Marry Joe's perspective and 377 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 5: test pro secutor. They were trying to avoid formal cliches 378 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 5: to such an extent that they ended up just presenting 379 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 5: everything in the most straightforward way, and I honestly think 380 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 5: that also happened with the performances, and and that's why 381 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 5: there are no interest, because they were like, we don't 382 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 5: want it to be a giant speech that feels too 383 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 5: cliche or to oscary, so instead we're going to have 384 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 5: everyone talk in hi monotone and not really say anything 385 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 5: that dramatic, which, as we said, made the Bruce Den 386 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 5: thing even more ridiculous because when you have him being 387 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 5: like Alibi, like right within a movie that makes no 388 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 5: other no other big decisions like that, Like it's gonna 389 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 5: sound ridiculous. The alibi think would have not sounded ridiculous 390 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 5: if you had a bunch of people, you know, Grant 391 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 5: standing in every scene. 392 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Because also that is one of the fabrications 393 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: of this movie, is that at this point in time, 394 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: Joe Kennedy Senior, he couldn't speak anymore. He was not 395 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: able to be a part of the decision making here. 396 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: He'd had a stroke and he was just a couple 397 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: months away from passing away. So to make that one 398 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: big decision to fabricate his involvement and then have it 399 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: be his Rosebud, his reverse Rosebud, I guesst or whatever 400 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: is alibi, and then not even exploring that. Then Ted's 401 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: big attempt to get an alibi is he asks somebody 402 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: what time it is. 403 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 6: That's a really funny way to get. 404 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 4: Out assembles the brain trust and it's just bad. Guys. 405 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 4: How do I get out of this one? Guys? 406 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 5: I know, all right, I'm very aware of the fact 407 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 5: that we're all sort of piling on this movie. So 408 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 5: I want to give us a challenge, and I have 409 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 5: an answer for myself Is there anything we liked about 410 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 5: this movie? What did we appreciate? 411 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: I liked that Elliott Page's two ex girlfriends were in 412 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: it together, and I thought about that though. 413 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 5: Oh my god, that's true. Yet Wow, Yes, it was 414 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 5: nice to see Olivia Thurlby, someone I only associate with Dreuneau. 415 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 5: So I would say mine is that. I actually felt 416 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 5: that the portrayal of Mary Joe was one of the 417 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 5: stronger parts of the movie, and I thought there was 418 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 5: a very conscious decision to give her personality when we 419 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 5: saw her on screen, which then made the Kennedy's dealings 420 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 5: with her after the fact seem even more evil because 421 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 5: they are just treating her as like a problem to 422 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 5: be solved. Not a single one of them is speaking 423 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 5: about her as though she's an individual with a personality, 424 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,239 Speaker 5: with a history. All of them allegedly were friendly with her, 425 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 5: she worked for Bobby, and they're speaking about her in 426 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 5: such a cold, distant way, And I think that really 427 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 5: does land you, know at times, because you have experienced 428 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 5: her in the beginning of someone with a complicated relationship 429 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 5: to her job and to this family and to politics. Talented, Yes, 430 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 5: if anything, she's like not after yeah, yeah, job in 431 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 5: her few scenes, she is in a weird way, the 432 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 5: most complex character, which, to be clear, is not saying 433 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 5: a lot in this movie, but she is someone who 434 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 5: is wrestling with a lot. She's not just a symbol 435 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 5: of innocent, beautiful brunette. 436 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 6: Yeah. 437 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: Well, Also, the first conversation about the evening is there 438 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: is no party without the girls, and Ted is very 439 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: concerned about making sure that they have a way onto 440 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: the island, and someone's making sure that they get settled. 441 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: And then the party is supposed to be thinking them 442 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: a bit. I mean, that's the way it's presented. His 443 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: speech is just saying we're all family now, which is, 444 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, they were very important to him when they 445 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: were working for his family. And then the second that, yeah, 446 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: he murdered one of them, they're not any cause the 447 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: DEATHA yeah, cause the DEATHA sure, I know it's not murder. 448 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: It certainly feels murderish. 449 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 4: Oh sure. 450 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 3: You know. 451 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 4: There's a level of cowardice to the whole affair that 452 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 4: is unseemly for anyone, and certainly for someone who deems 453 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 4: to be in a leadership position at that level or 454 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 4: at any level. It's cowardly in a way that I 455 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 4: think is existentially disgusting. I think the performances were good. 456 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 4: I do agree that I think that everybody performed competentently. 457 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 4: I agree with you that you get the sense that 458 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 4: they never really let anybody off the reins like you wanted, 459 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 4: like do I want to see ed Helms playing it 460 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 4: straight and going yad every like other the habit you know, 461 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 4: every couple of lines of dialogue. I will say that 462 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 4: that beginning seeing the party because a good job of 463 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 4: giving you a sense of why you would attach yourselves 464 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 4: to this family. You know of how a person's ambitions 465 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 4: might lead you to a position like that, and the 466 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 4: sense of playing a larger political game by being associated 467 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 4: with them, And you never get the same to your 468 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 4: point about like, she's not the kind of like innocent, 469 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 4: wide eyed person. You get the sense that she understands 470 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 4: who they are's clear eyed about what her job is, 471 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 4: and she's trying to get the most out of it 472 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 4: by playing this game. And so that I thought was 473 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 4: probably the most interesting part of the film. 474 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 5: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 475 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 5: this break. 476 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 6: And we're back with the United States of Kennedy. 477 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 5: I think the idealism of the Kennedys seems to have 478 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 5: died with Jack and Bobby, and this movie is a 479 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 5: depiction of what's left. Everything just seems like everyone's running 480 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 5: on fumes, and I think you sort of get that 481 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 5: at the party, like they're all happy to be with 482 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 5: one another, but it also has a mournful undercurrent. 483 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: The other thing about the party that nobody mentions in 484 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: this movie that I wish they had because it would 485 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: have been more interesting, is that every single man there 486 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: is married. 487 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 5: There is another way where this filmmaker was trying to 488 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 5: be even keeled and not be unfair to anyone, because 489 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 5: there's a world where you shoot that party as like 490 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 5: a debaucherous, sure crazy event where all these men or 491 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 5: hitting a drunk men or hitting on these young women, 492 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 5: and they don't do that, and you're sort of like, okay, well, 493 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 5: at least paint a picture. 494 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have been something to watch. This is 495 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: what I was saying before we started recording. You know, 496 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: this movie is not terrible, and that is almost worse. 497 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 4: Yes, I agree, it's really bad. Yeah, there's nothing worse 498 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 4: than a safe movie. Yeah, particularly a safe movie about 499 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 4: something where somebody died and a ascendant political career that 500 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 4: had the I mean, you could, I think, reasonably make 501 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 4: the case that this event changed the course of history, right, 502 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 4: and then to make a safe movie about that is like, 503 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 4: why what are we doing? 504 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 2: Well? 505 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 4: Any episode of mad Men is better than this. 506 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 5: It could have used a little more mad Men. Yes, 507 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 5: it could have really leaned into the period piece drama 508 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 5: camp of it all. 509 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 2: Well. 510 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: I was kept thinking because at first I did not 511 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: think they were going to show her in the car. 512 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: That doesn't happen for a little while after the accident, 513 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: and I thought that was it. They were going to 514 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: explore that theory that she was alive in the car 515 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: for a while. But then when they started showing it, 516 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: I was thinking about how Joyce Carol Oates wrote a 517 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: short story that was inspired by chap Equittic that some 518 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: people say was the thing that brought it back into 519 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: the collective memory. And that entire story takes place in 520 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,959 Speaker 1: the time that she's drowning. Yeah, and it's flashbacks and 521 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: it's her thought and it's all of her thoughts leading 522 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: up to the accident and where she's going. You know, 523 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: the whole story takes place in that time that she's 524 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: drowning in the car, and that's so cinematic, and that's 525 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: a you know, a short story, you know, but then 526 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: to watch the movie and it have it be so 527 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: not cinematic. 528 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, and the story is called Blackwater. It's a novella. 529 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 4: You know what I thought they were going to do 530 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 4: when they because I agree with you, that was that 531 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 4: was gripping stuff to watch. It really really harrowing. I 532 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 4: thought what they were gonna do was, Okay, we've shown 533 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 4: you this horrendous way, this drawn out way, where you understand, 534 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 4: she understands what's happening, what's going to happen, and she's 535 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 4: so afraid. And then I thought they were going to 536 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 4: mirror that with Kennedy looking for exits. I'm looking for 537 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 4: a way out of this, but the walls are closing 538 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 4: in and it's all constricting on me, and in the end, 539 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 4: I'm trapped in this isolated bubble by myself. And instead 540 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 4: the movie just kind of lets go of you after 541 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 4: this drawn out death scene and then when they show 542 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 4: you the body again as if to say, don't forget 543 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 4: this happened. And then I thought, Okay, well they're not 544 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 4: going to do that, but they're going to have these flashbacks, 545 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 4: so you understand the guilt is weighing on him. 546 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: And then they let go of that too. 547 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 5: No, but it was. 548 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 4: But there's a moment in that first quarter of a 549 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 4: movie where you're thinking, Oh, there's interesting avenues that this 550 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 4: can go. 551 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: I also going back to my question of who's the protagonist. 552 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: At one point I wrote down what's the climax? 553 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 5: I would say, maybe they want the climax to be 554 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 5: Joe slapping ted in a way I. 555 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: Felt like maybe it was very Yet when he's deciding 556 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: which speech the King's speech, it, Yeah, it felt like 557 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: they had. 558 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 4: Three choices, and the three choices were confrontation with Dad, 559 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 4: and it felt like, oh, it could be this, but 560 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 4: then they chickened out, and then it was gonna be 561 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 4: King's speech. Can he select the correct truth telling speech? Right? 562 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 4: And then it was gonna be reunion with Dad, not 563 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 4: the confrontation, but like I've got his love back and 564 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 4: I understand why he sent me on this path. And 565 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 4: then it's it's like none of those, Yeah, what was it? 566 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 5: Yeah? The way to combine all of those is to 567 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 5: make it almost like a systems movie, which is sort 568 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 5: of what JFK was. It's about a network of different 569 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 5: people that each have different motives and are each lying 570 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 5: to some extent to further their own agendas whatever. But 571 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 5: the different people don't really connect, and it all feels 572 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 5: very disjointed. And there are parts when all of the 573 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 5: brain trust, as you say, are in the war room 574 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 5: and you're like, Okay, let's get this going. Let's get 575 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 5: a conversation going where everyone's talking over one another and 576 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 5: one person is yelling at this person, the other person's 577 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 5: accusing them, and it just ends. And then you go 578 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 5: to Joe and he's drooling and he's slapping his son. Okay, 579 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 5: all right, So I want to talk a little bit, 580 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 5: and especially with you, because I feel like you will 581 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 5: have a good take on the industry side of this. 582 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 5: I want to talk about the fallout and the legacy 583 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 5: of this movie, because this is a movie that really 584 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 5: affected the careers of its writers and its director, and 585 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 5: arguably its lead actor in a pretty severe way. Because 586 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 5: there is a world in which this movie was a success, 587 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 5: and these writers went on to write a bunch of 588 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 5: other political thrillers. The director went on to direct more 589 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 5: high profile projects. Jason Clark is that his name? The 590 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 5: lead like Jason Clark went because he's a clearly he's 591 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 5: in a lot of stuff, but he's like a working 592 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 5: character actor in B plus rate movies. But the writers 593 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 5: have not gotten another film produced since then. The director 594 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 5: hasn't done much. One of the things that I wrote 595 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 5: down because of added to the weird uncanny equality of it, 596 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 5: is that the production company is called Entertainment Studios Motion Pictures, 597 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 5: and I looked them up and they also have only 598 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 5: produced weird movies no one has ever heard of. 599 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: Also, the logo of Yes in the opening, it's like 600 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: from I. 601 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 5: Don't know's ting to video? 602 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: Microsoft were default, like in nineteen ninety eight. You opened 603 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: it up and you're like, you need a logo for 604 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: a movie studio? Here you go, this is it. 605 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, So what is your take on these filmmakers. I 606 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 5: don't think that. 607 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 4: The downswing in the careers of the various people associated 608 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 4: with this is necessarily due to anything more complex than 609 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: they made a very high profile bad movie. 610 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, you can. 611 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 4: Make a regular bad but if you're going to make 612 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 4: a bad, boring movie and you're taking a huge shot 613 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 4: with chap equittic, then you do run the risk of 614 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 4: movie jail. Now, I will say just looking at it, 615 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 4: you see the red flags in retrospect. I don't know 616 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 4: that this director was clearly the right guy for this. 617 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 4: I don't know that Jason Clark is you know, Ed 618 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 4: Helm's probably more famous than him. I think it's really 619 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 4: as simple as they made a bad, boring film that 620 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 4: caused a lot of controversy, and that is kind of 621 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 4: a recipe for career jail. I think in the entertainment industry, 622 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 4: or at least you know, people in this have worked again. 623 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 4: But I think it's as simple as that they made 624 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 4: a bad, high profile film that was controversial. 625 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, because I remember it being controversial, and then I 626 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 5: was trying to find proof that it was controversial other 627 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 5: than the right wing fear mongering and the opit and whatever. 628 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 5: I could have sworn that this movie was like a 629 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 5: punchline like online, and I was trying to find proof 630 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 5: of it, and I couldn't. It's almost like it never existed, 631 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 5: and I incepted myself. I know it was a moderate flop, 632 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 5: like it was I'm seeing here now. It had a 633 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 5: budget of thirty four million in the box office was 634 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 5: eighteen million. That is that's obviously not great, but it's 635 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 5: not the biggest flop in the history of film. It 636 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 5: almost I think maybe it was controversial if you were 637 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 5: in the industry and knew what was going on, and 638 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 5: then for everyone else that just like didn't make an impact, 639 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 5: Like it is a completely forgotten movie. 640 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. And I also think, you know what was this twenty. 641 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 5: It was May and twenty seventeen, and then we found 642 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 5: out it was supposed to be released for Oscar season, 643 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 5: and then it got pushed to twenty eighteen, so it 644 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 5: actually is technically a twenty eighteen release. 645 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 646 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 4: I think it's several things. I think people, certainly by 647 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen and continuing today, are like, can I just 648 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 4: go to the movies and not do politics? 649 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 5: Yes? 650 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 4: I think you're also talking about the last crusting of 651 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 4: the comic book movie Waves, so nobody fucking gave a 652 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 4: shit about this adult, mid budget historical drama. 653 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 2: Uh. 654 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 4: I agree with you. I understand it was controversial, and 655 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 4: I understand that a lot of right wing ideologues were 656 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 4: really crowing about this movie. I also remember not thinking 657 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 4: about this movie at all. 658 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 5: Yeah. I had sort of an aha moment when you 659 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 5: were just saying that people didn't want politics on screen, 660 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 5: because I think, on the one hand, you are obviously 661 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 5: right that there was a politics fatigue, but on the 662 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 5: other hand, almost the opposite was also true, in that 663 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 5: with the first years of the first Trump administration, people 664 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 5: did want a certain kind of political media, but they 665 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 5: wanted it to be really preachy and either angry or 666 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 5: super inspirational. They wanted the black and white narrative that 667 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 5: made you stand up and say, we're not going to 668 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 5: take this anymore. Like I think a movie that villainized 669 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 5: Ronald Reagan and the Republican Party has always been this 670 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 5: way in Trump, you know, I think the major flaw 671 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 5: of this movie in terms of the timing, was that 672 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 5: it didn't take any big stance in an era when 673 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 5: all people wanted was to be angry about try. 674 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: One might call that a point of view, yes exactly, Yeah, 675 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: you know, perspective, a point of view, a take. 676 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 4: I completely agree. You know. I think Thirteen Hours in 677 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 4: Benghazi came out before the Michael Bay, yes propagandistic action 678 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 4: movie about the events in Benghazi during the lad Obama administration, 679 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 4: and I will say, politically terrible, like all Michael Bay films, 680 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 4: very watchable and exciting film, and you wish they would 681 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 4: have just like drizzled some hot sauce into this film 682 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 4: and give us something man, make it like from the 683 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 4: perspective of Mary Joe, she's a ghost, do something crazy, man, 684 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 4: piss me off. Yeah, other than looking at my watch. 685 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 5: And even the Mary Joe element of it, it's funny 686 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 5: like these were very black and white political times, like 687 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 5: the early Trump earrat. Truly, you look back on it 688 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 5: now and you cannot believe that it was so recent. 689 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 5: But the two things that were very much, especially for 690 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 5: left of center liberal audience, the two things they cared 691 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 5: about politically were Trump and the Me Too movement. This 692 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 5: actually has the potential to touch on both of those things. 693 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 5: It's about political corruption. It's about a woman that was 694 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 5: discarded and not for dead and literally laftford head by 695 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 5: a man in power. I'm not saying I would have 696 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 5: loved it if it was a movie that was super 697 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 5: preachy and black and white. But I'm like, I don't know. 698 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 4: I think that I think we keep selecting the wrong protagonist. 699 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 4: This movie should have been about Mary Joe. You follow 700 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 4: her throughout the day. She's talking about her aspirations, what 701 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 4: she's hoping to do in her career, in her life 702 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 4: and then it's tragically cut short. I just recently read 703 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 4: a book about one of the diplomats that his name 704 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 4: is tally Rand. He worked for the French government under 705 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 4: the Late Revolution, Napoleon when the king came back, and 706 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 4: then the government after they deposed the king, and the 707 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 4: whole time it was because everybody hated him he was corrupt, 708 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 4: but they also were like, fuck, we need to get 709 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 4: this guy back. And I kept going like, why don't 710 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 4: we make a movie about this guy and not Napoleon? 711 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 4: And I feel the same way about this, like this 712 00:36:58,800 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 4: should be her movie. 713 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, to that exact point, it made me appreciate the 714 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 5: movie Jackie more than I did when we first saw 715 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 5: a couple of weeks ago, because that's exactly what they 716 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 5: did there. I mean, obviously, Jackie Oh is a much 717 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 5: more well known figure than Mary Joe Kopecnie. But they 718 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 5: took this event whose protagonist is undoubtedly John F. Kennedy, 719 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 5: not Jackie, and they told it through a different perspective, 720 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 5: through this technically passive viewer of the events that were happening, 721 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 5: and put her front and center. 722 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: There's a really strong voice to it. It's very recognizable 723 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: as Pablo Loraine. A person could not like it, a 724 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: person could have a criticism of it, but that criticism 725 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 1: would be because of choices that were made, like strong choices. 726 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 5: And this is exactly why I think both of us 727 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 5: were struggling to come up with questions. And it's like, 728 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 5: you don't know what your reaction is to something that 729 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 5: isn't positing something. 730 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 4: Yes, it's just kind of like, here's what happened, I 731 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 4: have no thoughts on it, and then we walk away. 732 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 4: I will say that I think that to your question 733 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 4: about industry reactions, I think probably this movie doesn't get 734 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 4: made if you write a script about Mary jer Kopecney. Right, 735 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 4: you know, like whatever the name of the studio is, 736 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 4: I forget. 737 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: Movie Picture entertain Studios Pictures. 738 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 4: They're gonna go, I'm going to give you thirty million 739 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 4: dollars to make a movie about No, you got to 740 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 4: make it about Ted, because nobody knows who married your 741 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 4: like the Ted Kennedy, the Kennedy's and all of those things. 742 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 4: I think here the a boring movie. 743 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: I feel like we've ragged on it so much that 744 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: the three of us need to write the married Joe 745 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: Kopecne version of chepi quick. I know, I mean, and 746 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: get on that blacklist. 747 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 5: Yes, just like these two writers are on the blacklist 748 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 5: and now they haven't made a movie in ten years. 749 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 1: Jason, thank you so much. 750 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 5: Jason, thank you so much. This was so much fun. 751 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 5: And thank you for humoring us and rewatching one of 752 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 5: the most weird movies of the last ten years. 753 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 4: I excited to get your reactions, to hear your reactions 754 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 4: to thirteen Days. 755 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 5: Oh my god, we can't wait. Maybe we'll have you back. 756 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: The United States of Kennedy is hosted by me Lyra 757 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: Smith and George Severes. Original music by Joshua Tepalski, mixing 758 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: and mastering by Graham Gibson and Doug Bame. 759 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 5: Research by Dave Rus and Austin Thompson. Our executive producer 760 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 5: is Jenna Cagele. United States of Kennedy is a production 761 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 5: of iHeart Podcasts. Next week we're talking about the criminal 762 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 5: trial of William Kennedy Smith and its NonStop coverage on 763 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 5: Core TV that changed the media landscape forever. 764 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all 765 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: things Kennedy every week