WEBVTT - Lorne Michaels and Erica and Molly Jong 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.320 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to. Here's the thing, 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:10.160 My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:14.160 hear their stories. What inspired their creations, what decisions changed 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:18.959 their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Both of my 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:23.759 guests today are pioneers. In nineteen seventy three, Erica John's 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.840 frank treatment of women's sexual desires in her novel Theory 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:31.680 of Flying was as controversial as it was revolutionary. Two 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:35.360 years later, in nineteen seventy five, Lauren Michaels created Saturday 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.120 Night Live, a television show that was and still is 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.760 the biggest influence on American comedy today. Here it is, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.559 as you can see verifiably, it is a check made 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:49.840 out to you the Beatles for three thousand dollars. All 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:54.040 you have to do is sing three Beatle tunes She 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.040 loves You, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. That's a thousand dollars right there. 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.160 Lauren Michaels has launched the careers of John Blue, She 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.320 Dan Ackroyd, Gilda Radner, and Bill Murray. Then there's Chris Farley, 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:08.479 Will Farrell, Tina Fey, Kristin Wigg and Chris Rock Always 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.960 I haven't been you, havn't been poor day since I 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.679 met Lauren Michaels, and I never been broke since I met. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.200 Both on television and in film, Michael's is the kingmaker 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.399 of comic actors. He's also a rare producer and that 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.720 he's truly involved in all aspects of production. Yet he 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.360 says when he does his job right, he leaves no 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:35.200 fingerprints behind Lauren. Michael's life in comedy began in the 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.760 late nineteen sixties when he worked at the Canadian Broadcasting 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:44.320 Corporation in Toronto, alongside his writing and performing partner Heart Pomerats. 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.640 But it wasn't television. Lord Michaels started out in radio. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.040 There's a show called five Nights a week at this time, 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.800 and we did political satire every week. We thought we 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.960 were potentially bringing down the government, and the fact that 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:03.920 no one was listening didn't occur to us for at 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.800 least the first year. But we loved doing it. It 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.359 was just a chance to write and perform every week. Now, 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.120 where did that begin though? For you? Did you go 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.080 to school for that or did you? No, no, no, no. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.080 I went when I graduated from University of Toronto, I 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:21.600 had taken nothing that was of any drama theater. I'd 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.440 worked in the theater there, but it was more. There 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:29.680 was a review that University College u S Follies, which 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:34.520 was a satirical review music and comedy, and I co 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.720 wrote that and directed it. So so from the beginning, 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:42.960 I mean, even before you go into CBC radio and 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.279 before Hart pomerants there, even in college what you characterize 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:51.119 a satiric review comedy review, that was your Bailey Wick 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:52.760 from the beginning. I think it was what was in 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.760 the air at the time. It was just the beginning 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.600 of the questioning of authority, which was the year I 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.680 didn't four. We were no longer talking about World War Two, 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.840 the first part of my childhood. That's all anyone talked 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:09.160 about it. It was pretty much the gloom of that 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:13.239 hung over most of the fifties. Sur Yeah, and then 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:17.440 we television came into our lives and and everything changed. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.760 So with a CBC how long are the radio years? 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:25.200 The radio years think three years? And then we began 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.600 writing for comedians Woody Allen and John Rivers and a 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.000 little bit Dick Cabot. How do you get into that door? 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.560 Heart Heart did that. He was very good at approaching people. 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.680 We would come down to New York to write for 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:44.480 people and Wood he who was incredibly generous and encouraging, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.560 and we had no impact at all on his career, 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.160 but he was very helpful. Then we got hired on 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:56.000 a television show in night as writers called The Beautiful 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.760 Phillis Dealers Show and which was a variety show at 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.200 him See in Burbank. And then from there, when that 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.120 was canceled, we were hired on lap In, which was 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.080 in its first season for George for George Slaughter. Yeah, 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.520 what was the dynamic when you go to Los Angeles 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.600 in the late sixties and you're writing for network television. 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.760 Did you feel like that was It wasn't at all. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.520 The romantic idea of what I thought behind show business 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.200 would be well on lap In. The writers would write 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.000 and then it would be edited by a head writer, 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.920 and then we did not go to the read through. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.440 We were at at a motel in Burbank, uh and 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:36.440 we would all have lunch together and that was fun 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.360 and didn't even have to have offices. No, we had offices, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:43.400 but they were in a motel, which was you know, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.679 it was the boom period of Burbank and so it 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:52.040 was the number one show and on one level it 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.839 was like the greatest credit you could have, and it 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:59.480 certainly did wonders for you know, like self image and career, 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.960 but it wasn't fun. You'd write, you know, monologues for 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.920 Dan and Dick, who were really nice to us. Did 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:08.200 you get to go to the tapings of the show. 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.440 We'd go to the studio if they were doing the monologues, 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.560 and they would read it from the cards. They would 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:16.200 see it for the first They were some of the 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.640 most famous card readers, remember that also just they would 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.280 just see it for the first time on the cart. 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.520 They did not want their work in any way interfere 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.920 with their life. And we worked there for a year 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.880 and then I got a call from the head of 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.400 the CBC asking what it would take to bring us 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.480 back to do shows. We're still hard on television. Yeah, 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:40.880 and that's where I learned how to do television. Why 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.239 do you say that, because I spent a huge chunk 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.479 of my twenties, you know, in an editing room. We 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.800 would shoot in the studio, we'd be in front of 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:52.919 an audience and then what were you doing? It was 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:59.680 called the heart and Louren terrific Hour and the Stars. Yeah, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.520 and there was you know, one ensemble and a musical guest. 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:08.280 James Taylor was on one. Cat Stevens Birth the idea 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:10.120 for the other show that you eventually wound up doing. 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.080 I don't know whether you know. There was a real 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.240 form then called Variety, and it was comedy variety and 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.880 it had you know, music and comedy, and we would 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.240 perform in front of an audience, but mostly it was 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.240 built in the editing room. And the way that laughed 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.839 in was I remember that we came out of the 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.400 first show with like sixteen hours worth of tape and 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.360 I met with the editor. He said, why don't we 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.960 just watch it? So we watched the first four hours. 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.360 We were discussing a sketch. He said, I think in 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.200 that piece we could pull out that part. And I 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.920 was still thinking script. I wasn't in any way thinking visually, 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.800 and he said, no, your arm there is is by 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.640 your temple and then you put it down. He was 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.960 looking for continuity. He was an editor. He actually saw it. 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.239 I said, how did you do that? And he said, 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.360 I can teach your eye to see and he did. 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.760 I learned how things are put together, and how what 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:13.000 to look for in composition and how to make something work, 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.520 and the role that sound played because it's all radio 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.520 with pictures. Nobody cared about sound then when we first 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.920 did SNL the first five years, it was a boom. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.240 When you see Elvis Son, ed Sullivan, him and the 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.840 Jordan Eires, it's just a boom. They got what they got. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.520 We have better sound on this interview than I had 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.360 in the first twenty years of my career. And what 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:40.200 I realized then about myself is that I'm much more 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:45.600 interested in the production that I am in performing. What 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.960 changed for you? I saw it in the editing room 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:54.160 one night. I looked at myself before a take. I 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.320 see my eyes checking the lighting, seeing where the cameras 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.240 are in terms of their angles, and you're seeing a 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.480 guy who all his instincts are technical and director and 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:08.080 just kind of look. Yeah, I'm seeing a guy who's preoccupied. 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.000 And then the slate happens and then there's this smiling 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:17.200 artificial Yeah, snapped artificial. I'm sure I was sincere. Yeah, yeah, 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.760 in my opinion, speaking for myself as all artificial, yes, exactly. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.560 We had the same experience when I was on stage. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.200 When I was at University of Toronto in the theater there, 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:32.400 I was in the middle of a scene with an 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.559 actor and it was exciting to be on stage and 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:40.240 all that. But I looked in his eyes and I realized, Oh, 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.760 he's actually that guy. You know. I knew he had 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.679 to my lines with some charm, but he actually had 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:50.120 become more character. Yeah, which I thought, Oh, I see, 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.040 that's what actors are. They actually can do that, you know. 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.920 Whereas I was Yes, for me, it was like it 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.000 was fun to be in shows and I've done them 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.400 at summer camp, and I've done them in high school 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.240 and and uh, but you had a pure instinct at 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.200 that time, but you just said there's this other thing 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.320 I'd rather be doing that. I was more and you 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.800 walked away. So so you So you ended that situation there. Yeah, Well, 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:18.000 in Canada there was still a kind of national self loading, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.280 best expressed by the then head of the CBC. We 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.480 were slow in getting our start dates for production for 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:31.560 the next season, and I had been offered by Sandy 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.240 Warnick and Burney Brulstein, who I had met when I 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.720 was working in California, agent and manager respectively. They said, 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:40.720 you want to come back and work on a Burnston 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:45.440 Shreiver summer show for like, Yeah, they were and they 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.920 were funny and it was like smart shows. In ten weeks, 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.040 I went to the the head of the department at 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.720 the CBC and I said, I have this other offer, 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.560 but I will stay here. At the time, I was 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.199 caught up in the idea that I would be of 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.120 the first generation of Canadian artists who would be able 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.719 to stay in Canada. And why is that? Why did 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.720 you feel that because everyone had always left and the 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.120 moment that you left in Canada, people started to treat 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:17.520 you differently, And I thought, well, that's idiotic. We should 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.520 be We're involved enough, we should be able to stay 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.320 here and work here. They had the CBC that I 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.520 was working for, said, I said, I had this offer 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.640 and it's just for you know, ten weeks. He said, well, 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.920 if you're that good, why are you here? And I thought, 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:37.520 I want to be here that you know, And then 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.200 I realized you could never fight against yeah. And also 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.959 I realized is van Gogh a Dutch painter. He really 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.920 painted in France, And I thought, oh, I see, so 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.320 nationalism isn't the best way to you know, you go 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.440 where the work is. So I went out and I 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.040 did that, and then I came back. Even as we're 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.079 talking about Canada, your accent just came back. You just 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:04.520 said I went out. Yeah, I realized I'd come to 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.200 the end of that period and I moved back to 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:14.080 California nineteen seventy two, and I lived at the Chateau 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.000 Marmont until I moved here, which is seventy five. I 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.679 had my thirtieth birthday in the lobby the Chateau Marmont, 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.400 which hadn't had a party then, I believe since Dorry 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.680 lived there. Yeah. So um, you have a real fondness 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.720 from Los Angeles. Yeah, I love you have a Yeah, 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:33.960 you have a very very warm spot for Los Angeles 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.600 and you who are for London order. Yes. The nice 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:39.920 part about being Canadian is you don't have to make 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.240 that decision. You know, you're in California and it's there's 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.640 grass in February and the sun is shining. You know, 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.240 this is fantastic. But if you're from New York, then 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:51.960 l A becomes like, well know, you know, it becomes 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:55.000 that it's a lot of people get an entire career. Well, 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.760 I think different. That's true, and I've been very guilty 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.720 of that myself. The thing about Los Angeles, if you 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:06.239 do it in your twenties, you can find and understand sepulvida, 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.000 which is if you grew up in a city with 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.679 a grid, you're going, well, so what do you mean 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.719 this crosses Wilshire And then if you're on that set 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:20.760 off Robertson and you think you're up exactly, yes, exactly. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:23.920 But when you're in your twenties, you're going to a 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.839 lot of parties where you're just following somebody or somebody 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:29.840 gives you directions. And this is at a time it's 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.000 hard to recall, but it's pre GPS. No. No one 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.800 wants to learn where they're going now. But anyway, I 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.800 had a very happy time there and I worked for 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.760 Lily Tomlin and I wrote on her show, which was 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.400 like ten or twelve weeks, and at the end of 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.560 it it was time to go back to Canada and 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:52.640 I realized I wasn't visa wise, I wasn't going back. No, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.720 it wasn't that. It was that the CBC wanted me 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.040 to do something, but they want to be back six 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.560 months in advance of that. Naggie I'm gonna be the 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.360 normal leader of Canada or no, not even normally. I 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.040 think it was just that you would be able to 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.720 work there. But here's what I realized, without Malcolm Gladibell, 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.560 who's also a Canadian articulating it, because we didn't have 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.000 the benefit of that, then it's the ten thousand hours 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:19.560 in doing twelve shows in ten weeks. Working at that pace, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.000 you get better. In Canada, working on a show every 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:27.199 four months or five months, you overthink everything. There's so 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.000 much at stake, and there was something about working at 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.480 that pace and working in a system that was really 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.600 clear cut, like if the numbers were there and you 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.120 had ratings, then you were hit, and they weren't there, 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.360 then you were a PLoP. And at that point in 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.840 my life I kind of needed clarity of which is 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.719 one of the reasons I'm drawn to comedy, because you're 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.760 trying really hard to make people laugh. If they don't laugh, 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:56.720 it's really it doesn't work. So I do. Lily Thomas 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.640 show gets nominated for an Emmy. It was a pilot 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:04.120 special four series and I am co producing with Jane Wagner. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.280 We spent forever on it and then at the end 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.120 it didn't get picked up. But Dick Eversoul, who was 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.400 the new newly appointed head of late night, had come 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:18.400 from ABC Sports and had meant Herbschlosser on a plane 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.520 and by the time they landed he was the director 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.720 of late night Television and he had this idea of 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:29.240 doing many pilots in late night, using late night to 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.240 be a testing ground for prime time. I agreed to 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.880 do one for Dick. And I was, as I said, 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.040 living at the Marmont and I came home one night 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.400 two o'clock in the morning, which was not unusual for me, 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:46.200 and uh, there was a message from Dick. Could you 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.400 be at the poll Lounge at seven o'clock in the 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.880 morning for breakfast? No better for me then than it 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.560 is now. And I went, um, okay, what's it about it? 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:01.000 And he said they decided to do one show as 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:05.400 opposed to twenty pilots, and yours is one of the 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.760 ones that there, and they all want to meet you. 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.600 So I came and it was Dick and the head 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.480 of programming, the head of research, and the head of talent. 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.520 I could kind of tell that they were like tribal 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.600 elders in a way. They were just sort of looking 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.280 at me like is he all right? You know? It 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.680 was just basically an approval process. But I seem normal enough, 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.360 and was I, you know, trouble I had long That's 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.640 the interesting because because that's was ever thus in the 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.000 business where I mean, talent is not the only coin 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.440 of the realm. They want to realize can we hand 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.360 you a lot of money? And will it does seem 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.760 like a plaque or whatever? And I and I was 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.080 just turned thirty, but I did have credits and I 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.280 hadn't been nominated for stuff. And Dick called me and 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.560 he said it went well, and then they wanted me 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.520 to fly to New York and to how do you 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.440 feel about that? I was excited by it. But Herb Schlauser, 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:03.360 who had a very romantic notion of production in New York, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:09.240 I thought it should be live. Well, I've never done 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.320 live except for radio. And I said, was everybody else 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.280 in the processing? Was he the lone voice? He was 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.080 the lone voice. He decided that it should be an 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.920 eight age because eight h was the big NBC studio 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.800 and it was lying vacant, and all of the production 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.040 moved to l A. All variety was in l All 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.240 of that crap music hall, all of those variety series 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.160 which were done in New York in this building was 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:36.640 all in everything as yeah, exactly for me, Live meant 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:43.440 this no pilot, having done three pilots that everybody thought 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.800 were great. But then somewhere in the process of making 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.240 a pilot all your most conservative instincts come out and 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.600 you find yourself doing the thing that you think is 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.400 going to be It's like a college essay. Is what 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.400 you really think or feel, it's what you think we'll 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.640 get you in or get you on the air. So 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.960 the idea that I could do a show in which 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.679 the audience would see it at the same time as 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.800 the network was trily and also I was at a 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.760 point in my career where I really thought I had 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.440 nothing to lose, so I was gonna take one more 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.480 shot at television. I was gonna see if I could 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.080 do it the way I wanted to do it, and 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:27.040 I pretty much did. The very first broadcast of the 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:35.000 show Live was when October. October oct n is the 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.520 first broadcast of the show, and was the structure virtually 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.880 the same it is now. Yeah, that part was all 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:44.960 the same, although I think for the first show we 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.840 did address rehearsal with the audience on Friday night, just 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.040 so that we'd have an extra one because we've never 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.639 actually done anything. The crew was like an original old 0:17:55.680 --> 0:18:00.600 New York crew. They were all mildly overweight. They had donuts. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:06.120 We had crewe Detey because we were from California. Jet yeah, 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:10.760 and until we saw the move the cameras around in 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:14.159 the way that they could because they knew that that world. 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.240 I once did a show at CBS in their big 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.040 studio and they have no tradition of this over at CBS, 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.040 and I realized when I had taken the tour that 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.119 all the cameras had stools beside them. It was only 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:36.000 later when I realized the show was a complete mess. Right, 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.760 They haven't moved cameras there, They just sort of aimed 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.400 it at Cronkite for the last forty years. They set 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.240 up their camera and then they sit on their stool. 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.800 The eight ah crew that crane flew around the studio. 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:51.199 They learned that we knew what we were doing in 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:56.399 terms of the content, and this is gonna be interesting 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.720 for them as well. Wasn't a desk and was coming 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.120 back to New York. There's a wonderful story. When Eugene Lee, 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.400 who's the designer I hired, who had just done Candide 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:11.040 on Broadway, we did the very first set, you know, 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.119 and it was like a two thousand dollars set. I 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.240 couldn't get approval, like they wouldn't authorize the budget for it. 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.520 I went up to Herb Schlaster's office. I just assumed, 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.520 being Canadian, that I was just supposed to do the 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.439 right thing and make a show that he would be 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.720 proud of since he had authorized it. So we took 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.480 it to his office. It was a little model and 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:34.400 I don't think you've ever seen a model, and suddenly 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.520 we're moving little cameras around and all that, and he said, well, 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:39.560 what's the problem. I said, well, they it's expensive, and they, 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.879 oh fine, And we got the approval and it was 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.240 very paternal in the best sense of it. But Eugene 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.680 had a very clear sense of what he wanted. We 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.880 were showing New York City as it then was, which 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:56.359 was kind of in decay and crumbleds So when Herb 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.160 came down to the studio the first time to see 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.680 it and looked at the cracked paint, you know, the 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:04.879 thing which was where all the money was, of course, 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.880 in terms of getting that exactly right. He said, I can't. 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:09.560 I don't know why, you know, I don't know what 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.720 I was thinking that. I just thought the shop did this, 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.600 you know, because he just said it was a really 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.880 bad and yeah, no, it was just that nobody knew 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.399 whether production could gear up again in New York, and 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:26.879 of course it did and still does. So when you 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:32.640 do the show October eleven, the first show is broadcast 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.080 live in years and when it's over, describe how you 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.520 feel after the very first show. I was the same 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.040 way then that I am now. I only see the mistakes, 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.159 and I tend to wear that up until about the 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.560 second drink at the party. Even last week's show. It 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:53.040 takes me really through midway through Sunday. You just take 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:54.560 me a couple of days. I can get over it 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.720 now in a day. Because you're always hoping that everything's 0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:59.800 gonna work the way you were hoping it was gonna work. 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.680 You know, you see of something, Yeah, and you see 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.399 somebody enters, you know, on the left foot instead of 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.320 the right foot, or the camera cut is late, or 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.240 that Q gets screwed up, or that or somebody stuff 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.920 right before the slate was not looking at things. Yeah. Never, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:21.680 he's still here. He's not going to coming up. Lauren 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.280 Michael's learns to fire people. I had to accept that 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:27.560 some people were not going to make it and that 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.400 I had better deal with that when it happened, as 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.040 opposed to just pretending painful but unavoidable yes. And so 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.520 I learned how to be a boss. This is Alec 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:48.280 Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. This is 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.280 here's the thing. I'm Alec Baldwin back with Lauren Michael's 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:55.600 in his corner office at Rockefeller Center, seventeen floors above 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.800 the ice skating rink. He moved into this office when 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:03.240 Saturday Night Live mirrored in n and most of the 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.280 furniture is exactly most of their exactly the same. The 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:08.399 joke is we hope that the people who run the 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.280 network never really find out that where your this office is, 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:13.200 and how could you have it here? You know this desk. 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:15.560 We didn't have budget for that, so we there was 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:18.560 a maintenance guy here who said, well, there's a lot 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.560 of furniture you know that's in storage, So we said, 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:23.320 can we see it? So it was all the stuff 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.600 in the thirties and forties, and this box of batons 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:30.959 for Toscanini to the then head of programming, and in 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.040 the desk was a couple of copies of like the 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:37.320 Racing Form and Jelu Sill and Maylox, and I thought, 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.199 what am I getting myself into? It was so it 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.240 was the reverse of kind of holistic view of California 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.439 which I'd come here with you. Now you look at 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:49.240 the board for those people who don't know, the arc 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.399 of the whole season is on this infamous but corkboard 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:55.439 on the wall, and they are the dates of each broadcast, 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.760 the names of the confirmed hosts, some prospective hosts, and 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.000 the musical guests and so forth, and the names of 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:06.040 the people are still not all of them, but many 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.640 of them. The biggest names in the business. The biggest 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.760 names in the business are coming here thirty something years 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:18.640 later to host the show. Ben Stiller and Melissa McCarthy 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:22.199 won the Emmy Award, and Katie Perry is coming, and 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:26.880 Jimmy Fallon, who's obviously double dipping on your payroll, Jonah Hill. 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:29.000 I mean, the people that are the biggest names in 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.760 the business are still coming here to host the show. 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:34.640 Why do you think that that stayed that way? What? Well, 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:36.800 I think, first of all, the best part is host. 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:39.960 You get the best parts in most scenes, and we 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:44.320 work really really hard tonight because it's Tuesday. I will 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:49.399 leave here probably around three. I used to do what 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:51.680 the younger ones do, which was pretty much go through 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:55.000 the night. But I don't anymore, you know. And and 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.119 I say it with Smigle until three in the morning 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:01.399 exactly with those and I go right, okay, and I 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:03.400 look at you good. They're like yeah, I'm like, I'm good. 0:24:03.400 --> 0:24:08.000 And that's the commitment to it being the best it 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:11.919 possibly can be. But I think also to inject my 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:14.919 own perspective, having done it many times, many many times, 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:19.280 many many times too many times past year, there is 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:21.600 that's out there people. People do feel them well, but 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:26.560 it was just tweeting. This reekplaces a live component that 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.160 is missing in most people's careers. They don't do theater 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:30.760 a lot of them. This is a chance for them 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.000 to have a kind of a it's it's much more 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.399 loose and kind of deconstructed, and it can get a 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:38.000 little sloppy if they're not like spot On and it 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:39.879 doesn't have that, it doesn't have the kind of the 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:44.640 gleaming perfection of movie making. And also Seth Meyers Norm 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:47.760 McDonald was at the show on Saturday, was and so 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:50.240 we were sitting at the party and and Seth pointed 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:53.560 out that Norman had given an interview somewhere recently where 0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:55.760 he's talking about the show, and he said, in what 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:59.120 I thought was a nice way, it's now the only 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:02.720 place left where you can be bad. You know, there's 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:05.439 no lap track when something doesn't work, it's such a 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:10.400 clear silence. And whereas you walk out of a situation 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:12.919 comedy in front of a live audience, they're already cheering. 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:18.199 You know, even the theater. The theater people stand the 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:23.080 audience thinks they're supposed to do with standing incovation, you know. Yeah, 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:25.880 for a stand up comic talent like Norm, I think 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:28.439 one thing he might be reacting to is it gives people, 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:31.720 the hosts, whether they are comic performance or not, it 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:33.719 gives them the recreation of like a club being at 0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:37.520 a club, and it's stripped down so that it's only 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:42.719 at the end talent writing into the lens. There's no spectacle. 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:45.240 We don't have, you know, much of a wide shot. 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:49.360 You're watching pure performance and for people to be able 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:52.760 to soar like that, and when you see it happen, 0:25:52.960 --> 0:25:57.159 it is always amazing, you know, amazing to be standing 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:00.359 there being me having seen it as many times I have, 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:03.120 and the fact that every week we don't know how 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:04.760 it's going to turn out, and the fact that I 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:09.000 am still as scared as I am every dress rehearsal. 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.600 And honestly, I don't mean like we'll be drummed out 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:16.120 of the business. I just mean that it is part 0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:18.520 of the process that people have to be bad before 0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:21.720 they can be good. When we have a great dress rehearsal, 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:25.320 when the audience is way too hot, invariably something gets 0:26:25.359 --> 0:26:30.160 lost on air when you come and do the show. Um, 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:36.000 I've never felt more violated. I've come on here, you know, 0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:40.480 seemingly weeks after I got divorced, and Bill Clinton a 0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:42.920 k a. Darryl Hammond is working out telling me to 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:44.800 put my oars in the water and set sailf of 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:47.960 the island of Ponani with him. Yes, and yeah, So 0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:50.119 I'm just wondering, I mean, do you do you find 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:53.120 that that's a big part of their creative successes there 0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:56.359 as you're complete, Yeah, I think there's something. They expect 0:26:56.480 --> 0:27:00.240 us to be honest, They expected us to say what 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.760 what's actually happening? There's very little protection. Have you always 0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:07.040 been this year? Reverence your whole life? So this was 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:13.320 really just meant to bit what's the first movie you made? Post? 0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:17.639 I guess Wayne's World? You know wasn't the first? Sorry, 0:27:17.640 --> 0:27:22.760 three amigos. I wrote with Randy Newman and Steve Martin. 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:24.680 I have a copy of your IMDb if you'd like 0:27:24.720 --> 0:27:27.680 to consult at thee No, no, but I uh that 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:31.360 you wrote. Yes. We'd go to Steve's house every day, 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:34.560 Randy and I. We'd meet for lunch, talk it down, 0:27:34.640 --> 0:27:36.720 and then we'd spend the afternoon writing and it was 0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:39.199 very happy time for me. And what about after that? 0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:40.760 Was the next time a minute. Then I came back 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:44.480 to the show I had left s in and then 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:48.520 Brandon was threatening to cancel it and he called me, 0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:51.679 how many years were you gone? Five years? You were 0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:55.920 gone for five years. I left with the original group, 0:27:56.280 --> 0:28:00.040 designers and musicians, the cast, the writers. Listen. In the 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:04.040 first five years, I didn't fire one person. So when 0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:08.000 I came back I was sort of more psychologically built 0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:12.000 for that that it wasn't family in that sense that 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:16.879 the what William Seawan once called my pseudo egalitarianism was 0:28:16.920 --> 0:28:20.440 not healthy. I had to accept that some people were 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:22.639 not going to make it and that I had better 0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:25.320 deal with that when it happened, as opposed to just 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:29.159 pretending paid yes. And so I learned how to be 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:32.040 a boss, which I I think I'd learned how to 0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:34.920 how to lead on some level, but I never learned 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:36.679 how to be a boss. And I think when I 0:28:36.720 --> 0:28:40.920 came back, um where you know, less of a peer 0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:43.400 and more of a boss. Yes, And at some point 0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:46.680 are you tempted to stop again and just go make films? 0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:50.960 It is what I do. It's the thing that but 0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.120 it also became and I don't mean to be, you know, 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:56.280 glib about it, but it also became like the aircraft 0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:59.360 carrier that you launched many planes off. This is a 0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:02.840 power bay for you as an entertainment producer. Question. Wayne's 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:06.680 World was the first of those. With Wayne's World, I 0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:11.080 think what I wanted to prove was that I could 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:13.760 do a movie in the same way that sort of 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:16.560 the Marx Brothers used to do their movies. They tour 0:29:16.680 --> 0:29:19.600 them first, so they knew where all the laughs were 0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:22.440 and then they could go film them quickly to test. Yeah, 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:26.000 no one believes that we do what we do here 0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:29.760 in six days because there's not much of an approval process. 0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:33.920 It just heads to eleven thirty, whereas in l that 0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:37.040 was my experience when I first did the show. Yeah, yeah, 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:40.840 there's so much money and habitat for humanity building a 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:44.280 house exactly. But the movie business because it's way better 0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:48.520 run as his prime time television. Every paragraph is scrutinized 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:51.640 and reviewed. And I say it every week. We don't 0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:54.240 go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 0:29:55.400 --> 0:30:00.360 and that's just it's somehow focuses people, and I trust 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:02.800 that process. And so with Wayne's World, I think we 0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:05.280 had I can't remember how many days when it was 0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:08.600 like twenty seven or something like that. But towards the 0:30:08.760 --> 0:30:13.240 end there was a plot with a father son which 0:30:13.320 --> 0:30:15.440 Roblo was to be the son, and I was hoping 0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.640 for Dennis Hopper to be the father. And as we 0:30:18.760 --> 0:30:22.400 got close to shooting, which we were like three weeks away, 0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.400 we went, oh, so we just made it one person. 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:27.960 We just made it Rob. You could make that kind 0:30:27.960 --> 0:30:31.680 of decision quickly. The pace of ESNL was like, think 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:35.160 of it, do it, and then think of something else. 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:38.680 Tina's is the same thing about thirty rock television conditions, 0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:41.640 those muscles where you have to make fast decision, and 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:45.000 that puts the creative people in charge. I did a 0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:47.200 movie with Mick Jagger based on a book we both 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:50.600 liked called Enigma, which is about code breaking in World 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:55.160 War Two, and michaelapp had directed it and it was 0:30:55.200 --> 0:30:58.040 an independent film. It took us six years to get 0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:01.640 it made, which was longer in World War Two, and 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:04.640 I and I realized worked on pretty hard. But when 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:07.480 I finally saw it, because there was German money in 0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:10.920 it and there was I think Japanese. I'm looking at 0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:12.880 the start of the movie, at the premiere, and all 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:15.520 of a sudden there's like all these names are there 0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:19.040 as producers, you know, and I go, well, hey, excuse me. 0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:23.800 I was like, And then I realized, in movies, the 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:26.400 person who does what I do isn't at the center. 0:31:26.800 --> 0:31:31.000 Right here I am, and that's fulfilling. In movies. What 0:31:31.160 --> 0:31:34.520 I like doing is the script, which I get obsessive 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:39.600 about a yeah, and then casting and then editing, and 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:41.880 then how to present it to the public. In the 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:47.160 sense of marketing. Now you have this great success in 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:52.160 you have the great success in late night television, and 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:56.040 then you have success in prime time television. You produce 0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:58.760 TV shows, particularly now that I've done how and you 0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:00.880 have great success in film. But you never worked in 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:05.560 cable and with your career, I mean you never worked 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:07.880 with I did with Kids in the Hall and I 0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:10.400 did with now with Fred in portlanda which is on 0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:12.320 I f C. Do you feel that you haven't been 0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:14.280 as aggressive and cable as you might have been. I 0:32:14.280 --> 0:32:16.560 think that at the end of the day, you know 0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:20.200 they're more comfortable with network because I've grown to prefer 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:22.520 network because you've got to walk that tight up and 0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:26.000 you can't just go blue. With me, there's no creativity 0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:28.640 without boundaries. If you're going to write a sonnet, it's 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:32.520 fourteen lines, so it's solving the problem within the container. 0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:37.680 And I think for me, commercial television and those boundaries, 0:32:37.800 --> 0:32:39.840 I like it. I like that you can't use a 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:42.160 certain language. I like that you have to be bright 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.680 enough to figure out how to get your ideas across 0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:50.000 in that amount of time, with intelligence being the thing 0:32:50.040 --> 0:32:53.800 that you're you hope is showing, not officially but you 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:57.200 wanted to be Oh, that was kind of bright. We 0:32:57.280 --> 0:33:00.920 have really good writers here. I think I can safely 0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:03.760 say that a lot of people in comedy did their 0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:06.760 best work here, even though there might be more successful 0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:11.760 in the things they did, Apple more commercially successful. And also, 0:33:12.000 --> 0:33:14.920 I really believe that if you're going to stay chap, 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:18.840 you have to take fights. And that means there's always 0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:22.840 young people, there's always people who are hungrier and more 0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:27.480 ambitious coming in, and you're working with people at the 0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:30.520 point of their career when nothing matters but the work, 0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:33.280 how they live, how they perceived. Most of the people 0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:37.920 arrive here, their office is nicer than their apartment, you know, 0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:41.680 and that's sort of what it's always been. And people 0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:46.440 just completely devote themselves to the show. And I think 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:49.760 you can't do that past a certain age. You know, 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:54.360 you have become someone who when you genuinely talk to 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:59.320 people about what a producer does in a constructive sense 0:33:59.320 --> 0:34:00.760 and you're not trying to be have a kind of 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:04.360 pejorative about, you know, meddlesome and kind of attention seeking 0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:07.600 and credit seeking producers, you have become, you know, like 0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:10.160 one of the most important producers in the history of television, 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.880 and a lot of that comes from in the history 0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:18.960 of the world, in all other universes and all other galaxies. Yeah, wherever, 0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:24.160 wherever product is consumed around the capsy. But you have 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:27.399 become uh, you just ruined my whole I was trying 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:29.919 to be so heartfelt here, but you know it's okay, 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:34.560 you're not um well, but you have become someone who 0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:37.640 embodies to me what a great producer really really is, 0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:41.719 and that is someone who you know everyone's job and 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:44.960 you know when what they're doing, even in the smallest detail, 0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:47.959 when it's working and when it's not working. I think 0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:51.120 that what I liked, and maybe it's growing up in Canada. 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:55.000 But the actor manager, you know, I know with Shakespeare 0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:57.399 not to put myself in the same category. That's really 0:34:57.400 --> 0:35:00.600 for others to do. But the I know that he 0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:04.000 had to have a guy like Farley and Blushi that 0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:07.640 the audience loved, and Falstaff ends up in play that 0:35:08.200 --> 0:35:10.560 really did it doesn't, but you know he was brought 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.640 back by popular demand. And I think that when you're 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:18.120 dealing with actors and writing and costume people and an 0:35:18.120 --> 0:35:21.000 audience and how you're going to get people into the globe, theater. 0:35:21.160 --> 0:35:25.120 It's not much different. And the fact that there's the 0:35:25.480 --> 0:35:28.680 greatest poetry probably ever written in the English language is 0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:33.440 also in there. That wasn't what he was advertising. Producing 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:37.480 for me anyway, is like an invisible art. If you're 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:40.719 any good at it, you leave no fingerprints. The writer 0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:43.320 wrote it, you always say that was so and so script, 0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:46.880 the director directed it. The star had the idea in 0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:50.040 high school. And that's kind of what it is. And 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:53.439 the only way you prove your worth is you leave 0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:55.560 a body of work and people go, oh, that accident 0:35:55.719 --> 0:36:00.279 happened there again that oh, I see. So you know, 0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:03.120 you try and get the best out of people. If 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:06.200 you look around the room and you're the smartest person 0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:09.239 in the room, then you're in the wrong room. You know, 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:11.799 you want to get the most talented people you can 0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:15.440 find and then UMU the best of them. But you 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:18.279 also have, if I may say so, a kind of 0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:20.520 Darwinnian approach to this. In the years I've been here, 0:36:20.560 --> 0:36:23.319 where you're not someone who's sitting down. I mean you've 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:28.080 had close personal relationships and you've developed lifelong or career 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:30.439 long friendships with some of the most important people you've 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:33.360 worked with. But as a rule. I don't see you 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:35.879 sitting down like a father figure to the people here. 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:38.640 You tend to let them slug it out and let 0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:42.440 the cream rise to the top. Correct somebody's in trouble. 0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:48.120 But talking about in the creative process, I think that 0:36:48.320 --> 0:36:51.839 you kind of guide it, you don't make it. Yeah, 0:36:51.920 --> 0:36:56.040 the only way you can manage creative people's very loose reigns. 0:36:56.480 --> 0:37:00.440 I think if you're all over everything between us in there, 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:02.560 you know what that meeting was like, and it's just 0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:04.839 there's no more appeal, then this is what we're doing, 0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:08.120 this is how we're doing it, and and everyone falls 0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:11.560 into place. But up to that point, it's kind of fractious, 0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:14.520 and everybody's got an opinion and nobody likes anybody else's work. 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:18.279 The idea that it's a variety show. By that, I 0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:21.400 mean that there's a variety of styles and tastes, that 0:37:21.480 --> 0:37:24.719 there's the lowest comedy and and the brightest comedy, and 0:37:24.760 --> 0:37:28.000 that they all coexist. Or that this group doesn't like 0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:31.440 that musical act and that group thinks that the joke's 0:37:31.440 --> 0:37:33.839 on updated they don't agree with the politics of it. 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:38.880 That's kind of the community of it, and that's Lord Michaels. 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:42.440 He says he picked up his value system at summer camp. 0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:45.560 I wanted to make fair. What is never a fair thing? 0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:51.759 He said? Show business we were a community. It was 0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:55.799 just set up. What was a value system? Do you 0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:58.160 know what I mean? It was not driven by economics. 0:37:58.200 --> 0:38:01.399 It was driven by if it's successful, will be more 0:38:01.440 --> 0:38:04.640 than enough money. Uh. Are you're saying you're disappointed in 0:38:04.719 --> 0:38:07.000 how you've done No, I'm saying I would do it 0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:13.080 exactly the same way. Now. Yeah, I'm Alec Baldwin and 0:38:13.080 --> 0:38:17.480 this is here's the thing in depth conversations with artists, writers, 0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:21.240 policymakers and performers. Well, I have a half a bagel 0:38:21.280 --> 0:38:23.960 in the morning with cheese. That's sort of my standard breakfast, 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.440 and my wife gets on me for that. You can 0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:31.040 listen to past episodes and here's the thing. Dot Org. 0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:48.319 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. 0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:53.960 Divorce is terrible. Divorce is difficult. It's a chaos. We 0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:58.480 have no rules for it. It's so incredibly painful. I 0:38:58.560 --> 0:39:01.399 think about the impact of worse on children a lot 0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:05.080 because I'm divorced and have a daughter. Erica Young knows 0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:08.600 a lot about divorce. She's been married four times. Divorce 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:11.040 was the hardest thing I ever went through. I have 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:13.360 a friend who said to me once when he was 0:39:13.360 --> 0:39:16.800 getting divorced from his wife, who could believe that after 0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:20.440 we were in the delivering room together, after I watched 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:24.279 that baby come out, who could believe we'd ever be 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:28.440 a part? Both Erica and her daughter, Molly young Fast 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:32.760 are writers. Erica is best known for her nineteen seventy 0:39:32.840 --> 0:39:35.960 three book Fear of Flying, which ushered in the second 0:39:36.000 --> 0:39:40.400 wave of feminism. Molly, a mother of three kids herself, 0:39:40.719 --> 0:39:44.680 published her second novel, The Social Climber's Handbook last year. 0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:47.800 What did you learn about marriage from your parents? Mom? 0:39:47.840 --> 0:39:52.360 Can I answer that question honestly? Honestly is the only way? Well? 0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:56.319 I would say, have you seen Kramer versus Kramer? That 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:59.840 was my general impression of marriage from my upbringing. But 0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:04.840 you know, my mom had some good, useful suggestions, but 0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:08.000 ultimately I sort of had to find my own way, 0:40:08.040 --> 0:40:10.880 though she did eventually marry a really great guy and 0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:13.759 they've been married for twenty one years. And he's a 0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:17.080 divorce lawyer. He's a practicing divorce Yeah, he is. And 0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:19.479 Molly used to say, when I married him and then 0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:22.400 she married the one you can never divorce the divorce. 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:26.160 Is he a good guy. He's a really good guy. 0:40:26.200 --> 0:40:30.640 He's a totally menchi person and I like him better 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:33.080 than when I married him. What was it like for 0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:36.640 you to deal with your parents divorce? Your parents divorce 0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:39.879 as an only child? Who did you talk to? Who 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:45.480 did you do? Obese nanny from Trumbull, Connecticut And she 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:56.520 was my confidence, like crumpets, those tasty cake ring everything. Um, 0:40:56.560 --> 0:40:59.160 I think I mean Cramer Versus Kramer was a great 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:01.319 movie because that was my story and it was a 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:05.160 lot of kids. It was just a really gruesome seventies 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:08.000 divorce and that's what they had during that time. Divorce 0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:09.920 wasn't set up the way it is now now. If 0:41:09.960 --> 0:41:12.080 you have a divorce, there's no way that a mother 0:41:12.160 --> 0:41:14.879 is going to lose custody. Certain things are known. Back then, 0:41:14.920 --> 0:41:17.719 it was a totally unknown world of divorce. Let me 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:21.360 just I don't want to get carried away by divorce 0:41:21.400 --> 0:41:24.600 being different in different decades, because I'm not sure that's true. 0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:27.240 I think it may look that way to you, Molly, 0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:31.840 but I think divorce is a catastrophic event for children 0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:36.400 for women from men. It's very, very difficult to go through. 0:41:36.719 --> 0:41:39.839 It is traumatic. When you come to the other side 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:42.600 of it, you say, I will never do that again, 0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:45.840 which is why I was single for nearly a decade 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:49.920 between Molly's dad and Ken, because I wanted to make 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:52.759 sure I would never make them. But after you have 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:59.000 three divorces, Yeah, you were divorced. What made you believe 0:41:59.160 --> 0:42:01.759 success was a waiting you with your current husband? What 0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:04.799 gave you the We stamped on our wedding invitation a 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:08.120 triumph of hope over experience, which came as the result 0:42:08.160 --> 0:42:11.080 of what how did you triumph? Ken had been married 0:42:11.120 --> 0:42:13.319 three times. I had been married three times. We were 0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:16.520 very cautious about tying the non you were not that 0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:19.120 cautious because you've only been together for three months. When 0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:24.880 you go, that's right? Am I right? Is she right? 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:28.160 We married after we knew each other three months. But 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:31.560 this isn't an amazing and it's been most successful with him. Yeah, 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:35.359 but there are certain things about me and Ken. We 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:41.520 grew up in similar circumstances. Our parents were Depression era people. 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:45.960 We knew that you couldn't be married and fool around. 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:50.719 You couldn't be married. Secrets to their marriage. They have 0:42:51.120 --> 0:42:54.360 different bathrooms, right, They each of their own bath critical, 0:42:54.520 --> 0:42:58.239 and they're tired. They're too tired to to do new 0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:01.520 curtains and bookshelves. The reason why we got married rather 0:43:01.560 --> 0:43:04.400 than lived together was because he said to me, if 0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:06.919 we just lived together, one day, we'll have a fight 0:43:06.960 --> 0:43:10.360 and you'll say I'm leaving or I will. We have 0:43:10.480 --> 0:43:14.439 a bad record. If we get married, we know we're 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:18.959 going to make it work. Marvin Worth, Marvin Great Marvin Worth. 0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:21.480 He was Lenny Bruce's manager, then went on to become 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:23.960 a famous movie producer. Produced Malcolm X, the movie with 0:43:24.000 --> 0:43:26.440 Spike Lee. Famous movie producer. He was from Brooklyn. He 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:28.120 had the heaviest New York accent of any man I've 0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:29.920 ever heard of my life. And I said to him, 0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:31.279 how did you and Joan do it? How have you 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:34.000 and John been married for for forty years? Like it 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:37.040 was you don't fight? And he said to me, uh do, 0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:39.719 Joan and I fight? We fight every day. We fight 0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:42.640 all day. What we do is fight, he said, But 0:43:42.680 --> 0:43:45.839 then we after we're done fighting. I say, Joan, I'm 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.840 not going anywhere, and you're not going anywhere, So what 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:51.640 are we gonna do about this problem. I'm not going anywhere. 0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:54.040 That's what Ken and I wanted, Like leaving is not 0:43:54.160 --> 0:43:56.759 an option. And actually this is very funny because he 0:43:56.840 --> 0:44:01.000 says I'm not going anywhere, just what Rvin said, and 0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:04.560 I say I couldn't stand anywhere else. And part of 0:44:04.600 --> 0:44:07.840 it is we really make each other laugh all the time. 0:44:08.640 --> 0:44:11.959 When we have a disagreement. We always get it out there. 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:15.440 We don't hold it in. Now that I have kids, 0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:18.600 I feel like what they don't tell you about marriage 0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:22.080 is that marriage is incredibly hard work. Molly got married 0:44:22.080 --> 0:44:30.360 at but Molly's whole childhood and upbringing had been different 0:44:30.400 --> 0:44:35.120 from mine. I married my first lover, my college sweetheart. 0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:38.600 I had no experience with anybody else when I married him. 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:42.640 That was very much my generation. Molly sewed her wild 0:44:42.680 --> 0:44:46.000 oats during college, and when she met Matt, she knew 0:44:46.040 --> 0:44:48.160 this was the man she wanted to be with. It 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:50.600 was a totally different pattern. But I think how much 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:53.880 wild else did? So what did you travel with the stones? 0:44:54.600 --> 0:44:57.719 I think I um, I really grew up because I 0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:00.239 got sober when I was nineteen, So I went to 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:02.600 rehab when I was a teenager, so that I was 0:45:02.840 --> 0:45:05.520 until I went to we have very crazy. But then 0:45:05.680 --> 0:45:10.200 once that happened, I then started to focus on, you know, 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.960 what was important. So by the time I got married, 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:16.160 I was already, you know, sober a long time. My 0:45:16.239 --> 0:45:20.800 grandmother was very bohemian, and my mother was very bohemian. Yeah, 0:45:20.880 --> 0:45:24.399 and they all my grandparents had open marriages. I also 0:45:24.520 --> 0:45:27.360 wanted a bourgeois life, Like I didn't want to be bohemian. 0:45:27.400 --> 0:45:30.080 I don't want to be single and have a boyfriend 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:32.920 who had a motorcycle and cowboy boots. None of that 0:45:32.960 --> 0:45:35.880 appealed to me. What effect, if any, did it have 0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:38.160 on you that your mother was viewed as and I'll 0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:40.040 let you put in the words, you know, your mother's 0:45:40.239 --> 0:45:43.719 expertise and female sexuality. What impact did that have on 0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:48.399 you when you were growing up? Um? I think more 0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:51.520 having a mother who was very successful in working a 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:55.120 lot at more of an effect on growing because she 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:57.279 just traveled a lot and worked a lot and felt 0:45:57.400 --> 0:45:59.279 very stressed a lot. I think that had more of 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:01.680 an effect on me. Then. I didn't particularly know what 0:46:01.840 --> 0:46:05.680 she did until when I was in sixth grade. I 0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:08.600 went to this very progressive school and a little boy 0:46:08.680 --> 0:46:10.920 was like your mom writes dirty books. I went to 0:46:10.960 --> 0:46:12.400 science teacher and I was like, he's not allowed to 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:13.959 say that to me, and she was like, but she does. 0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:17.000 And I was like, oh my god, she does. But 0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:18.799 the fact that we grew up in a townhouse with 0:46:18.800 --> 0:46:24.400 a hot pink door and then it was purpose, it 0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:28.600 was right. We had paintings of naked lesbians having sex 0:46:28.640 --> 0:46:35.080 on the walls. Yes, why because no they're not famous. 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:40.239 Ladder Sladder. I have a schlatterer, but I keep it 0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:42.600 under my bed. When I want to get things going, 0:46:42.840 --> 0:46:46.200 I want to I want to pick it up. Would 0:46:45.760 --> 0:46:50.439 you like to? Relating to the erotic art I had 0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:53.760 lived in house guests. They had lived with Shirley McClain. 0:46:54.160 --> 0:46:56.680 Sureley finally threw the map. They were about a hundred 0:46:56.760 --> 0:46:59.000 years old at that point when Shirley threw them out. 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:01.759 They came to live with me and they gave me 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:10.040 erotic artists. Thank you can't imagine the Slatter sisters. They 0:47:10.040 --> 0:47:15.360 were really old fashioned bohemians like Henry Miller. In the sixties. 0:47:15.400 --> 0:47:18.120 They had lived in Paris on the Boulevard Reastpy and 0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:22.359 had orgies that was all over. In the seventies they 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:25.359 went to India with Shirley and wrote about past life 0:47:25.360 --> 0:47:29.560 regression in the eighties. They got into antioxidants before anybody 0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:32.360 knew about it. They were at the head of every curve. 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:36.160 They were not just about and they invented the iPad. 0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:42.760 They did not I admire them because they were true 0:47:42.800 --> 0:47:46.080 bohemian to me. If they ever, don't comment on this 0:47:46.080 --> 0:47:49.279 sho until she finishes. Describe your relationship with your mother, 0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:58.160 Donick pleasant. She's very supportive, are you talking about She's 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:00.520 very supportive and she talking about you like she's your 0:48:00.600 --> 0:48:08.080 husband's ex. Pleasant, Judy and I have a very pleasant relationship, affable, Charving. No, 0:48:08.480 --> 0:48:11.160 my mother has always been phenomenal with me, so supportive. 0:48:11.160 --> 0:48:12.879 I don't give her things to read because she says 0:48:12.920 --> 0:48:14.680 to me, she calls me if it says, how much 0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:17.640 of a genius are you? She's very supportive. How would 0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:23.240 you describe your relationship with Molly? I absolutely adore her 0:48:23.520 --> 0:48:27.520 beyond that though, beyond that, I think she's I think 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:29.560 she's smart, I think she's funny. I think she has 0:48:29.600 --> 0:48:37.319 incredibly good judgment. I've watched her grow and emotionally, and 0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:41.920 she has bearded some dragons that were very hard. What 0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:47.239 do you disagree about everything, everything, something, Give me something primary, 0:48:48.000 --> 0:48:51.600 what's consistent? I think of her? It is very reactionary liberal, 0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:55.319 and I'm much more conservative in certain ways politically. Yeah, 0:48:55.440 --> 0:48:58.680 do you think that some of your conservatism stems from 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:01.759 your reaction to her? The kind of sexual drum she 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:09.520 was beating throughout her I take it was con I 0:49:09.560 --> 0:49:11.879 was not beating a sexual drum. What were you doing. 0:49:12.719 --> 0:49:15.520 I was trying to write honestly about the way and 0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:19.360 a young woman thinks and feels. And because our society 0:49:19.400 --> 0:49:25.439 is so curiously puritanic, people took that honest book, which 0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:29.360 got inside a women's fantasy life, her marrital life and 0:49:29.400 --> 0:49:32.080 so and they took it as a horny book. And 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:35.759 I am truly disappointed that the closest person in the 0:49:35.800 --> 0:49:39.400 world to me has bought into that view. But okay, 0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:42.840 she doesn't have to be my literary critic. She's my daughter, 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:45.920 and I love her, and she can do no wrong. 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:49.960 I hope that someday she will read my work and 0:49:50.040 --> 0:49:52.320 see that that was not what I was doing. Daughters 0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:54.960 do torture you in a way that I mean that 0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:57.960 sons are not capable of, in my opinion, But I 0:49:57.960 --> 0:49:59.880 also think that my mom's legacy to me was a 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:02.280 up being honest and how important it is to be honest. 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:04.640 And I do really hate you know, that kind of 0:50:04.640 --> 0:50:08.080 pretension or falseness, and that is something that really has 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:14.080 been your legacy. Um, this is obviously an important subject 0:50:14.680 --> 0:50:17.319 for me because I have a daughter, and that is 0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:22.000 What do you think of the state of female sexuality 0:50:22.120 --> 0:50:25.960 in the culture today. I think they're overwhelmed with a 0:50:25.960 --> 0:50:30.840 false image of sexuality before specific before they're emotionally ready 0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:34.680 to deal with it. I think they use their manipulation 0:50:34.719 --> 0:50:38.359 of boy's sexuality as a power trip to get even 0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:41.399 with men for the other power men have. But I 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:43.680 think to be a young woman today of the of 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:49.680 your daughter's age is a very sticky wicket, and I 0:50:49.719 --> 0:50:54.719 think that you really need a parent who can guide you. 0:50:55.200 --> 0:50:57.239 How would they guide them to tell them that what 0:50:57.320 --> 0:50:59.960 they see around them in the media is not true, 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:02.400 because I try to do that. If I were dealing 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:05.799 with your daughter, I would try to reassure her that 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:09.000 this is a very confusing time of life. I don't 0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:12.439 and that what she sees around her as incredibly confusing. 0:51:12.920 --> 0:51:16.080 Most of the women, the young women are as confused 0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:20.239 as she and are showing off by pretending to not 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:23.759 be confused, and I would try to convey to her 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:28.160 how difficult adolescence is, how many messages are coming at 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:30.919 her at once, and how hard it is to make 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:34.319 sense of it. That's what I would do. I plan 0:51:34.480 --> 0:51:37.560 to do that with my granddaughter, who I'm sure we'll 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:40.840 say something cynical to me. But I also think some 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:42.960 of it is you, just as you can't hear that 0:51:43.040 --> 0:51:45.479 kind of thing from a parent at I mean, maybe 0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:49.000 there are some kids who can. I never could, you know. 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:53.680 I'm not entirely sure. I had a beloved child psychiatrist 0:51:53.800 --> 0:51:57.040 growing up who I really liked a lot, and I 0:51:57.080 --> 0:52:02.120 think maybe that's possible, or teacher or school, so maybe 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:05.480 the parent can't really say those things. I think it's right, 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:09.000 and I also think we don't automatically know how to be. 0:52:09.320 --> 0:52:11.759 I think it's primarily different from when you wrote your 0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:14.520 earlier books. What's changed for when the media is more 0:52:14.760 --> 0:52:18.600 all pervasive and the image of women is even more 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:22.759 confusing than it's ever been. I believe that's true. On 0:52:22.800 --> 0:52:25.240 the one hand, you're supposed to look like a fashion 0:52:25.320 --> 0:52:30.200 model retouched, and on the other hand, you're supposed to 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:34.560 claim to a sophistication you don't and cannot have at 0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:37.600 that age. And I think that women who are fourteen 0:52:37.760 --> 0:52:41.840 fifteen are in the most difficult position they have ever 0:52:41.960 --> 0:52:44.480 been in modern society. What do you think about that? 0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:47.359 I mean, I agree, I think there's a lot of sexuality. 0:52:47.400 --> 0:52:50.719 I think it's not explained to young girls in a 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:54.600 way very confusing, Molly. But I think that's a legacy 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:56.879 of the feminist movement. I mean, we said we want 0:52:57.200 --> 0:53:00.600 a legacy on the feminist movement. It is the legacy. 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:03.680 And here I really feel fierce. It is the legacy 0:53:03.880 --> 0:53:09.040 of a distortion of women's desire for equal rights. Equal 0:53:09.200 --> 0:53:13.759 rights are not platforms, shooting and naked clothes equal right. 0:53:13.880 --> 0:53:15.960 But you can't blow up an atom bomb and then 0:53:16.040 --> 0:53:19.520 choose how it's going to go. But we we did 0:53:19.520 --> 0:53:22.920 not blow up that atom bomb. The media took our 0:53:23.040 --> 0:53:28.000 legitimate desire for equality and turned it into garbage. But 0:53:28.080 --> 0:53:30.400 they turned it into what the people wanted. First of all, 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:36.640 I don't think they wouldn't exist. It wouldn't exist people want. 0:53:36.880 --> 0:53:39.319 We'll be back in a moment after a word from 0:53:39.320 --> 0:53:44.000 our sponsored Victoria's secret. I disagree think, first of all, 0:53:44.040 --> 0:53:46.600 this is what the people want. People buy Britney Specs 0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:49.400 because no, no, no, no, did he. This is what 0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:51.759 I disagree. I blame the media, and I blame the 0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:54.160 entertainment industry, and I blame that whole matrix for all 0:53:54.200 --> 0:53:57.600 of it. I think of the most absurd person from 0:53:57.760 --> 0:54:01.520 the past, if you took content loss and put him 0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:05.520 on Glee, he'd become a gay icon today, content Flass. 0:54:05.800 --> 0:54:09.279 I think it's brilliant. If the Internet had existed when 0:54:09.320 --> 0:54:13.240 content Flass was here, everybody would be worshiping Canton Flows. 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:17.440 You can't and it has nothing to do with you. 0:54:19.719 --> 0:54:23.080 You can't control what people are going to But this 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:26.960 is what people want, this is what is thrust upon them, 0:54:27.280 --> 0:54:30.080 and it has nothing to do with First of all, 0:54:30.239 --> 0:54:32.160 you are the media, and you are the media, and 0:54:32.320 --> 0:54:36.400 I am in some effect of the media, So I 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:38.680 disagree with you. I mean, I take a paycheck from 0:54:38.719 --> 0:54:41.160 media companies to do what they pay me to do, 0:54:41.200 --> 0:54:43.759 but I'm not responsible for everything else they do. Let's 0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:46.759 just say this. You take the top women in entertainment, 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:49.920 and I'm gonna be generous. I'll say half one half 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:53.800 of them really have talent. Mariah Carey really can sing. 0:54:54.280 --> 0:54:57.880 Beyonce Knowles really can sing. But then there's the other half. 0:54:58.040 --> 0:55:00.919 They have no talent. It's all electronic, le enhanced. It's 0:55:00.960 --> 0:55:04.719 all about many people who are talentless. But I think 0:55:04.719 --> 0:55:09.640 the interpretation of of our of sexuality and our culture 0:55:09.760 --> 0:55:17.239 is so twisted. Sexuality is and lubricant is true intimacy 0:55:17.320 --> 0:55:24.480 with another person that sometimes results and genitals getting together 0:55:24.600 --> 0:55:28.120 and sometimes does not. Why are you so cynical? Why 0:55:28.160 --> 0:55:37.200 are you so cynical that awful? You're the one saying 0:55:37.320 --> 0:55:41.200 lubricants and dolls. I don't even think that's sex. I 0:55:41.239 --> 0:55:44.200 think that if you have real intimacy with somebody, he 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:47.600 can touch you here and you get excited. He can 0:55:47.640 --> 0:55:50.359 touch you on your neck, he can hold your hand 0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:52.160 in the movies later on. I'll show you the spot 0:55:52.200 --> 0:55:56.759 I touch. It never fails. People have no idea what 0:55:56.880 --> 0:56:00.799 sexuality really is. I can talk with you about for 0:56:00.800 --> 0:56:06.479 a couple more hours. Let's do it next time. Erica 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:09.960 Jong and Molly young Fast. They say they've toyed with 0:56:10.000 --> 0:56:14.239 the idea of writing something together many times, but both 0:56:14.280 --> 0:56:18.560 agree they never ever will. It would be just the 0:56:18.719 --> 0:56:22.400 end of our relationship. Here's the thing is produced by 0:56:22.440 --> 0:56:26.360 Emily Boutine and Cathy Russo, with support from Jim Briggs, 0:56:26.560 --> 0:56:30.879 ed Herbstman, Melanie Hoops and Monica Hopkins. Thanks to Trey 0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:35.480 Ka and Lou Okowski. This is Alec Baldwin and you're 0:56:35.480 --> 0:56:36.919 listening to here's the Thing.