1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Warrior Cops Versus Responsible Policing. 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: Tyree Nichols died on January ten, three days after being 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: arrested unarmed while stopped at a traffic light in Memphis. 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: Footage of the arrest showed five police officers repeatedly punching 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: and kicking Nickels in the head and beating him with 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: a baton even after he had been subdued. Investigations of 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: Nichols's death are ongoing, but the officers have been fired 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: from their jobs and charged with second degree murder. US 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: police officers shoot and kill more than one thousand people annually, 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: according to a Washington Post study. Half of these people 13 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: are white, but blacks are shot at more frequently, even 14 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: though they represent just four of the population, and are 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: killed at more than twice the rate of whites. The 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: same is true of Hispanic Americans and Latinos. This is 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: a collision of the rost and most brutal sort, and 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: it raises myriad questions about safe streets and public safety, crime, racism, 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: and institutional violence, as well as police training and the 20 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: increased militarization of US police forces. I want to try 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: something new today and bring on two different guests. First, 22 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: I'll talk to Radley Balco, a journalist and the author 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: of the Rise of the Warrior Cop. Then we'll switch 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: gears and I'll speak with Lawrence Ralph, and anthropology professor 25 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: at Princeton University and the director of the Center on 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: Transnational Policing. Let's start with Radley. Greetings, Radley, A good 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: to be here. Thank you for joining us. So. Tyree 28 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: Nichols death is the latest in a long line of 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: tragic police encounters with the Blick. Let's explore some of 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: that contacts before we examine what happened in Memphis. You know, 31 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: there was Rodney King in l a In Ahmadudalo in 32 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: New York, in Shawn Bell in New York in two 33 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: thousand and six, Michael Brown and Ferguson Missouri, and Freddie 34 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: Gray and Baltimore, and Philandro Castile in St. Paul In 35 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: and George Floyd in Minneapolis, and many many more. What 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: does that timeline say to you, Radley, when when you 37 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: think about it in that context, Well, it says to 38 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: me that we're continuing to make a lot of the 39 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: same mistakes. You know, I think that we are an 40 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: inherently violent country or a country that has a lot 41 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: of guns, so inevitably there are going to be encounters 42 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: dangerous and counters between police and armed and dangerous people 43 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: in the community. So I feel like we have to 44 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: sort of accept that there are going to be some 45 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: violent outcomes. However, we should do what we can to 46 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: minimu ees them. We should do what we can to 47 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: ensure that police are using tactics that keep community safe 48 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: while prioritizing constitutional rights. And I think and we can 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: go back even before Rodney King, go back to kind 50 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: of the early days of US policing, but certainly since 51 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: say the Civil rights movement, there has been this kind 52 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: of false choice presented that you can either have constitutional 53 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: rights or you can have say communities, that you can't 54 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: have both. And I think there's quite a bit of 55 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: convincing data that says that's just not true, that is 56 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: a false choice that in fact, when police serve their 57 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: communities in a way that is consistent with the Constitution, 58 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: that's consistent with the model of protect and serves opposed 59 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: to say you know, US versus them. Those communities are 60 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: saver because there's more trust and police can't solve crimes 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: without cooperation and communication with the neighborhoods and the communities 62 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: they're serving. And when there's no trust, there's no communication, 63 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: people stop calling the police, they stop calling nine on one, 64 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: they stop cooperating. And I don't think those two things 65 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: are coincidental. The other thing I think going on here. 66 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: You know, you raised this issue that violence is inevitable, 67 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: and we're always trying to strike a balance between a 68 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: necessary use of force to stop crimes and people's constitutional 69 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: rights and people's civil rights. But we're actually I also 70 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: think talking today about something that's an even in order 71 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: of magnitude larger than that, which is the militarization of 72 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: US police forces and what that's done to the nature 73 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: of the encounters the police have with communities and the 74 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: kind of violence that can occur. And I wanted to 75 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: talk to you a little bit about that. Do you 76 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: have a kind of thirty five thousand foot view of 77 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: how we should think about the militarization of the U. 78 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: S Police. Yeah, So there's a tradition in this country, 79 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: and I think a very justifiable one of keeping the 80 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: military out of domestic policing. I mean it goes back 81 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: to the Founding when the founders saw what happens when 82 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 1: you ask soldiers to do sort of routine day to 83 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: day policing. In that case, it was you know, British 84 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: soldiers enforcing tax and import laws, and it led to 85 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: a lot of unnecessary violence and anger and resentment. And 86 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: so there's always been this sort of concept or general 87 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: kind of principle that we don't want the military to 88 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: be doing domestic day to day policing. And it makes sense, right. 89 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: A soldier's job is to kill people and break things 90 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: into annihilated foreign enemy. A police officers job is to 91 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: protect and serve. You know that they're supposed to serve 92 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: a community, not see a community as the enemy. And so, 93 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: while we've done a good job of keeping the military 94 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: out of domestic policing, what we haven't done a good 95 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: job with and what we've actively encouraged through various public 96 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: policies of a last generation or two, as we turned 97 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: our cops into soldiers, and we've armed them like police, 98 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: we trained them like police, we have dressed them like police. 99 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: We've encouraged them to use sort of militaristic martial rhetoric. 100 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: And then we told them they're fighting a war. Whether 101 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: it's a war on drugs or a war on crime, 102 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: or you know, a war on terrorism. Pick your war, 103 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: and so let's slow down on that for a minute. 104 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: How did that come to be that decided it was 105 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: a good idea to militarize the US police. I think 106 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: politicians decided that the way you show you're tough on 107 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: something as you declare war on it. And you know, 108 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: we've had war on all sorts of ambiguous concepts and ideas, 109 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: from poverty to cancer, to drugs to terrorism to crime 110 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: in general. In many of those cases it is strictly rhetorical. 111 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: But we saw starting really during the nixt administration, is 112 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: to take that metaphor and make it quite literal by 113 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: getting police new powers, for example, the power to conduct 114 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: no knock grades basically get prior permission from a judge 115 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: to kick down the door and raid a home somebody 116 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: suspected of drug crimes. We really see it then ramped 117 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: up during the Reagan administration, where Reagan starts making surplus 118 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: military equipment from the Pentagon available to police departments, across 119 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: the country on a deeper level kind of reveals this 120 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: idea again that police and soldiers are interchangeable, that they're 121 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: similar jobs with similar skill sets, and they aren't. They're 122 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: very different jobs with very different skill sets. But this 123 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: idea that an m WRAP, which is a armored truck 124 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: that was built to resist land mines on convoys interact 125 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, that we're going to give those hundreds of 126 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: those police departments across the country because we're not using 127 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: them anymore. What kind of message does that send to 128 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: the communities where these are driving around and it's making 129 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: them feel like they're occupied, not that their democracies or 130 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: free societies. I think that this program really reveals kind 131 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: of just how shortsighted and how really lazy politicians are 132 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: when they think about policing. There is just this knee 133 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: jerk reaction to think more force, more aggression, more confrontation, 134 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: that's how you fight crime. And you know, all the 135 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: data we have show that that just isn't true, and 136 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: it is indeed a program. Right talk a little bit 137 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: about the Tree program and the Defense Department's role in 138 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: all of this. So, yeah, so the Reagan administration does 139 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: this kind of been on an informal basis, But then 140 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: in the late nineties, Congress passes the ten thirty three program, 141 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: which formalizes this in federal law of this giving a 142 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: way of surplus equipment. And for the vast majority city 143 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: of the tenorty three programs existence, there has never been 144 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: any effort to sort of gauge whether a particular piece 145 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: of equipment is appropriate for domestic policing. So literally millions 146 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: of pieces of military equipment have been transferred to local police. 147 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: This is stuff that was designed for use on the battlefield. 148 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: So you've got that going on. And then after the 149 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: attack September eleven, do you get a whole new source 150 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: of militarization, which is the Protment Hollman Security, which starts 151 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: giving out grants to police departments across the country to 152 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: buy new gear. So this isn't circlus anymore. Now you 153 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: get this cottage industry that's sprung up to cash these 154 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: DHS grants in exchange for new armored personnel carriers and 155 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: big guns and bayonets and helicopters and everything else. And 156 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: so now you've created this industry that thrives on these grants. 157 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: That industry of course, is going to lobby to continue 158 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: this program, and definitely and the DHS program eventually dwarfs 159 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: the Tenderty three program and now we're kind of at 160 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 1: the point of no return. Earn the Tentorary three programs 161 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: legacy is really that it kind of ushered us into 162 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: this age of militarization by providing all this gear. And 163 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: I mean, there there are two sides the police militarization. 164 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: One is the stuff, right, the gear, the camouflage, hants 165 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: and jackets that they get, which you know, there's really 166 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: no reason to wear camouflage if you're a police officer 167 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: in the United States, you know, unless you're patrolling a forest, 168 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: I guess, and you want to remain hidden. But that's 169 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: pretty rare. But it makes you look and think like 170 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: a soldier. It makes you think you are a soldier. 171 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: And for the people you're supposed to be serving, you know, 172 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: you look like a soldier. So it looks to them 173 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: like you're not a peace officer who's there to protect them. 174 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: It's you're an occupying force. It's there to intimidate them. 175 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: And that is the other side of police militarization. It's 176 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: the mindset that comes with all of this this US 177 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: versus them kind of battlefield mentality. One common phrase you'll 178 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: hear a lot in policing today is whatever I have 179 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: to do to get home at night, you know. And 180 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: that's the mentality of a soldier, right, That's not the 181 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: mentality of somebody who's supposed to be a part of, 182 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: a contributor to and you know, a resident of communities 183 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: that they serve. I still have a strong memory of Ferguson, Missouri, 184 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: in when armored personnel carriers rolled down the middle of 185 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: the street in response to the protests about Michael Brown's death. 186 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: And I think that that moment, it was such a 187 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: revelation I think for a lot of Americans to see 188 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: the degree to which militarization had really come into these 189 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: local police forces. Do you see that as a seminal 190 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: moment or was I just late to the awareness game. 191 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: I think it was so in a moment, and that 192 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 1: it brought it to much wider public attention. But a 193 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: couple of things about Ferguson that I think made it 194 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: more important than other protests and other events like that. 195 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: First is, you know, the initial image when you had 196 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: people protesting Michael Brown's death peacefully on the very first night, 197 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: and the police responded with full riot gear. And there's 198 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: a famous photo of literally a sniper on top of 199 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: the truck pointing his gun at the protesters. And one 200 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: reaction that I remember people who had serve of the 201 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: Iraq and Afghanistan. We're looking at these photos and looking 202 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: at these cops, and they were saying, you know what, 203 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: these guys are better equipped than we were when we've 204 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: heard in our Iraq and Afghanistan and moreover, a lot 205 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: of them were objecting to the term police militarization, not 206 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: because they didn't think it was a problem, but because 207 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: they said, you know, in the military, we have clear 208 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: rules of engagement, which a lot of police departments don't 209 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: have in the US. The first thing you're taught in 210 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: the military that you don't put your gun at anything 211 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: you don't intend to destroy. And these officers for pointing 212 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: their guns at unarmed, peaceful protesters, I mean military people 213 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 1: were angry by what they saw, which I thought was 214 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: a pretty telling moment that offers a nice segue, because 215 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: the other thing that occurs to me is that militarization 216 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: isn't just about hardware. It's also about tactics and tactical training. 217 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: In Memphis, Tyree Nichols was dragged out of his car, 218 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: chased down, and then beaten by a special tactical unit 219 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: known as Scorpion. Do you see these as as a 220 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: different issue than heavy weaponry or as a related issue, 221 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: and what is the role for these special tactical units 222 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: in police? You know, I think these are both different 223 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: and related. I think they're different in the sense that 224 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: the Scorpion units were not swat teams. They didn't get 225 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: specialized tactical training. I think they had a three day 226 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: course that included like a power point presentation and some 227 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: time on the shooting range and training on how to 228 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: take a suspect down. So look, I think swat teams 229 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: are overused. But I also think that if you're going 230 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: to use dynamic entry, if you're going to kick somebody's 231 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: door down, it's much better to have a well trained, 232 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: full time swat team who knows how to do that 233 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: in a way that minimizes the risk than to have 234 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: just five random cops kicking down the door. What happened 235 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: in Memphis, by all accounts, I mean, is what happens 236 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: a lot of times when crime goes up. You know, 237 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,599 Speaker 1: homicides were staring in Memphis and they're really part of 238 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: the pandemic. Politicians had to show that they cared and 239 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: that they were going to do something about crime. And 240 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: so they did what they often do, which is they 241 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: fell back to this false choice of well, we can 242 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: have safety or constitutional rights. And because safety is an 243 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: issue right now, we're going to have to create these 244 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: teams are going to be aggressive, they're going to saturate 245 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: these hotspot areas, and they're just going to kick ass 246 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: and take names. Basically, you know, I don't know the 247 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: politicians would actually put it in those terms, but that's 248 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: certainly the way these units get introduced. In this case, 249 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: these officers had very little experience, the ones who killed 250 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: Tyry Nichols, they were all I think the most had 251 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: maybe five or six years in the department. A couple 252 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: had just been hired recently, like maybe Yeah. They had 253 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: a lot of them at very little sort of street 254 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: experience relative other officers, right, And you know, part of 255 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: that is that the department was short on staff, and 256 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: so you have to fill out these units that the 257 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: mayor promised, and so you fill them out the best 258 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: you can. But you know the problem is you create 259 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: these units of officers and you give them less supervision, 260 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: more authority, sort of vague mandate to just suppress crime. 261 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: And so you know, from their perspective, their job is 262 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: to just kind of go out and do what they 263 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: have to do. Nobody's going to be looking over their 264 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: shoulder because the idea is to fight crime. Fighting crime 265 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 1: takes priority over procedures and rights and the respect of 266 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: the community, and so you know, before are tyrannicals. I mean, 267 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: there were lots of reports of these units pulling people 268 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: over traffic stops, screaming at them, pointing their guns at them, 269 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: swearing at them, threatening them. Now, we'll say it's true 270 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: that crime went down in Memphis after they created these units, 271 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: but crime also went down in every other large city 272 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: in the country in two after a spike in one, 273 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: so it's not clear at all that these units had 274 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: anything to do with that. I think more generally, we're 275 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: coming out of the pandemic and a lot of the 276 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: upheaval and economic distress, social isolation, exactly all of that. 277 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: So again, I think it's similar to the use of 278 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: swap teams. It's similar to our general approach to policing 279 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: when crime goes up, which is it's this kind of 280 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: lazy thinking that we get from politicians that the only 281 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: way to fight crimes to be more aggressive and to 282 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: be more proactive and to kind of take it to 283 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: these communities. And one thing that always gives a game 284 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: away when politicians are defending these units, they don't necessarily 285 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: defend them by saying crime went down in this particular neighborhood. 286 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: The first thing we always talk about it how many 287 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: the rest they made, how many guns they confiscated. And 288 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: you cannot arrest your way out of a crime wave. 289 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: It just doesn't work. When you measure success a police 290 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: option success by how many arrests you make. You encourage 291 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: them to do what we see in the Tyree Nicols videos, 292 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: which is just pull people over in random areas on 293 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: hunches more than anything else, harass them, intimidated them into 294 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: letting you search their car, and maybe four or five 295 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: or six of them are innocent, but you're gonna get 296 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: two or three or four that have something in the 297 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: car that you can arrest them for. And then that 298 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: looks good because you've made these arrests, and you know 299 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: you really haven't made the community safer, and you've probably 300 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: undermined a lot of trust in the community and respect 301 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: for the police, and that's going to make it more 302 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: difficult to do your job and you have actual murders 303 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: to solve because the people you're supposed to be protecting 304 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: are going to be afraid of you. And I just 305 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: point out, I mean, there's polling showing now that black 306 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: Americans are more fearful of the police than they are 307 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: of being a victim of crime. And that's really damning 308 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: and really telling about where we are right now. It 309 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: is extremely telling. And and I've wondered, is are there 310 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: regional and local patterns that are equally telling in all 311 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: of this. Is the militarization of police a national phenomenon 312 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: or is it? Are there sort of regional characteristics to it. 313 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: It's pretty national at this point. And you know, the 314 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: thing is, again, I think swat teams are ever used. 315 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: I think if you're going to have them, they need 316 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: to be well trained in full time. What we see 317 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: in most parts of the country outside of relatively large 318 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: sized cities is that the SWAT teams are part time, 319 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: and they tend to be officers who are doing other 320 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: things during the day and we're on the SWAT team 321 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: and on the weekends, and they don't get the right 322 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: amount of training, and they're probably on the SWAT team 323 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: because the adrenaline rush and because it's frankly, you know, 324 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: a thrill to kind of kick down doors. I'm speaking 325 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: very generally here, but I mean this is a common problem. 326 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: But you know, I don't think we pay enough attention 327 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: to the larger kind of cultural issues in policing right now, 328 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: particularly with a lot of these units have patches or 329 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: challenge coins or T shirts that they issue with like 330 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: their motto or their logo on it, and typically the 331 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: logo is something with like a skull and crossbones or 332 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: or a grim reaper, some sort of depiction of death. 333 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: I mean, this unit itself is called Scorpion, which you 334 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: don't call one of these units Scorpion unless your goal 335 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: is to instill fear in the community. And when you 336 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: do call it Scorpion, the kind of officer you're going 337 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: to attract as the kind of officer who wants to 338 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: be fear. That is not a name you give to 339 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: a unit that you want to serve the community. It's 340 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: a name you get to unit you want to attack 341 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: the community. But we've seen this over and over again. 342 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: There's a study. BuzzFeed published a study with an interest 343 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: group about four or five years ago that looked at 344 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: social media posts by police and I don't remember what 345 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: the exact figures are, but a disturbingly high percentage of 346 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: the departments they looked at the officers and those apartments 347 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: had posted something on social media that is either racist, sexist, 348 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: or sort of glorified police violence in some way. And 349 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: it was a disturbingly high percentage. And I think policing 350 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: culture has become very isolated, it's become very defensive, and 351 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: it has become very unaccountable, in part I think because 352 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: of the Royal police unions. Well the role of police unions. 353 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: I want to get into that as well. But let's 354 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: take a break and then we'll be right back. We're 355 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: back with Radley belco author of The Rise of the 356 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: Warrior Coup. Radley, we were just talking about police culture 357 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: and how broad based some of these problems have become. 358 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you in that context, are cops 359 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: like the five who have been charged with manslaughter in 360 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: Memphis outliers in your mind? Or are they representative in 361 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: other words, how deep and pernicious is this problem? I mean, 362 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: I think there are outliers in the sense that, you know, 363 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: what we saw in those videos was I mean, I 364 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: was shocked by them, and it takes a lot to 365 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: shock me these days. And I think the thing that 366 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: shocked me about them is, you know, we've seen a 367 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: lot of other videos where a police officer, multiple officers 368 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: will get sort of caught up in the moment and 369 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: the adrenaline. They'll be angry at somebody and you know, 370 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: a niche some nasty and brutal violence on someone. The 371 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: thing about the Tyree Nichols video that really kind of 372 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: chilled me is that it's the extended kind of beating 373 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: that you see. I mean, these officers. At one point, 374 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: one officer stops to tie his shoes and then goes 375 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: back to beating, and another point of officer helps another 376 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: officer find his glasses. They stopped to catch their breath, 377 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: you know, and it goes on for I think five 378 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: or six seven minutes in total. So it's the extent, 379 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: I mean, just the level of inhumanity that they showed him, 380 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: their inability to sort of see him as a human being, 381 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: that really I found pretty shocking. But yeah, I will 382 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: say it's not particularly unusual. I mean, I'm not going 383 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: to say it's every police officers like that, or even 384 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: a lot of them are. But we have seen lots 385 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: of other incidents like that, they just weren't on video. 386 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: But it says is that a small percentage of the 387 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: police force or is it brodder than that? Well, I 388 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: think it's a small percentage of the overall police force. 389 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: But here's the problem. I mean, the problem is that 390 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: these are supposed to be the elite units, right, These 391 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 1: are supposed to be the best of the best. I've 392 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: written a lot about recruiting videos that police departments send 393 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: out to high schools and colleges across the country. A 394 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: lot of these recruiting videos are blaring guitars, two police 395 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: officers kicking down door, seeking dogs on people, shooting, subduing 396 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: a suspect. They're all about attacking and aggression and testosterone action, right, 397 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: and there's very little about helping people and serving and 398 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: giving back to your community. They're emphasizing all the wrong 399 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: things about policing, so they're attracting all the wrong people. 400 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: So then you take a population of people who go 401 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: into policing for those reasons, and you select the ones 402 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: who are most attracted to the idea of working for 403 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: a unit called scorpion, and who are attracted to the 404 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: idea of working with less supervision, more oversight, and a 405 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: sort of generalized mandate to do whatever you have to 406 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: do to spress crime. And so I think what you 407 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: get with these units a lot of times it's just 408 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: a super concentration of the worst problems in policing into 409 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: one small unit. And unfortunately, those units again are given 410 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: sort of the most leeway to do damage on these communities. 411 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier the role that unions play in all 412 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: of this. You know, as I understand it, union rules 413 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: and the legal strategy that are upanies them when cops 414 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: get accused of malfeasance or worse, is that they tend 415 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: to protect bad cops, often to the consternation of good 416 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: cops who feel smeared by bad cops. To unions let 417 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: go of knee jerk defenses of cops, and what other 418 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: steps could they take to really play a more active 419 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: role in suppressing the kind of violence that is concerning people. 420 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure they can. You know, the 421 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: purpose of a union is protect its members. And if 422 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: you start saying we're not going to protect officers who 423 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: we think are the wrong kind of police officer, it 424 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 1: gets very difficult. I'm not defending the fact that they 425 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: defend bad officers here, but yeah, one thing that is 426 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: telling is that I've written about lots of cases over 427 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: the years where a police officer was punished or retaliated 428 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: against for giving up other officers, for reporting misconduct, or 429 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: abused by other officers. In those cases, the unions much 430 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: less likely to support them and protect them. Unions also 431 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: tend to reinforce existing power structures. So so where do 432 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: we go from here? You know, what, what do you 433 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: think are the most productive measures that community should take 434 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: to address escalating police violence and militarization. So I think 435 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: the most important thing we can do right now is 436 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: to what we can to shrink policing's footprint. I'm not 437 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: an abolitionist. I do think we need police, but I 438 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: think we asked them to do way too much. I 439 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: think we asked them to do things that we don't 440 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: train them for. And that very broadly speaking, and again 441 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: this is a generalization, but that people who go into 442 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: policing may not have the temperament for so the idea 443 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: that you know, in a lot of cities police are 444 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: our first responders to people who are having a mental 445 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: health crisis is absolutely absurd to me. And this is 446 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: something that's just bug the hell out of me since 447 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: I've started covering this issue, which is that, you know, 448 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: some kid expresses thoughts of hurting himself, and so his 449 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: parents called the police, and so the police and the 450 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: swat team, and now this kid who is a little 451 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: mentally unstable might be in the midst of a crisis. 452 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: Now he's the focus of the entire neighborhood because there's 453 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: a swat team out on the lawn and there, you know, 454 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: irons And it's the absolute worst way you can respond 455 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: to all of these situations, and yet that is the 456 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: default response still in a lot of cities in this country. 457 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: And we ask the police to be the first to 458 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: respond to the homeless, right it's the police who have 459 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: to try to figure out whether there's an available shelter 460 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: for a homeless person. A lot of cities that's the case. 461 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: You know, there's no evidence that putting police in schools 462 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: makes school safer. There is a lot of evidence that 463 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: they end up arresting kids who wouldn't have otherwise been arrested. 464 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: I think we get police out of all those things. 465 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: We can get police out of traffic enforcement. Police officers 466 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: are told from early on in the academy they're shown 467 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: these horrific videos of police officers getting ambushed during a 468 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: traffic stop and shot and kill. And you know, I'm 469 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: not going to say that that doesn't happen. It does 470 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: happen probably five or six times a year out of 471 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 1: you know, six or seven hundred thousand at least traffic 472 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: stops a year. So the odds of that happening to 473 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: a given police officer are are vanishingly rare. Yet it's 474 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: kind of drummed into them that this could happen to 475 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: them at any time, at any traffic stop. On the 476 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: flip side of that, I can Latino people see videos 477 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: like the one from Memphis, and they see lots of 478 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: other videos, and so they have their own experiences of 479 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: being racially profiled or police who are sort of rude 480 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: or aggressive with them during a stop. And so you 481 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: have this incredibly fraught situation all to enforce a law 482 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: against broken turn signals or unregistered plates, or speeding or 483 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: putting in terms in a lot at the wrong time. 484 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: All this stuff could be enforced in other, less confrontational, 485 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: less fraught ways, and I think, you know, that would 486 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: go a long way towards alleviating some of the stress 487 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: between the police and these communities, but also free up 488 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: a lot of police resources to do things like solving 489 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: violent crimes. In cities where we've seen consistently high rates 490 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: of violent crime, we've also seen consistently high rates of 491 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: police abuse and police corruption. We also see very low 492 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: rates of police solving crimes in those communities, solving murder, 493 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: solving rapes. Memphis has a massive back law of untested 494 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: rape kits, but yet they have the money to start 495 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: these sort of elite units on babies. Officers more to 496 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: be part of these units. Some federal legislators have suggested 497 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: creating a national database to track bad cops so they 498 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: can't just be shuffled to another precinct and to ensure 499 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: that their excise from the force. What do you think 500 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: of tools that allow greater transparency for average citizens to 501 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: be able to have a visible kind of window onto 502 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: police behavior. I think it's a great idea I wrote 503 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: about the last two police reform bills we had. I 504 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: think the Democrats bill was much stronger, but I think 505 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: they were both largely sort of symbolic. So, if I 506 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: remember correctly, the Republicans wanted to sort of fund a 507 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: study to look in the possibility of a database of 508 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: bad cops. The Democrats wanted to actually create a database, 509 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: but they didn't want it to be publicly accessible. And 510 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, if you're gonna have a database of bad 511 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: police officers, there needs to be a reason that you 512 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: have it in the first place, right, So, either officers 513 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: who were in that database should be ineligible become police officers, 514 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: or departments who hire somebody's in that database need to 515 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: be held accountable in some way. If those officers go 516 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: on to commit morm asconduct. You know, that means it 517 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: becomes easier to sue a police agency or city for 518 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: hiring one of those officers. Or you know, this database 519 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: is over the public and one of these officers is hired, 520 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: local media will be able to access that information and 521 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: can let people know that this is how they're choosing 522 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: to spend taxpayer money. You've analyzed and covered all of 523 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,959 Speaker 1: this so extensively, and I wondered. I always like to 524 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: ask guests what they've learned around the topic that we're discussing. 525 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: Is there anything that's new for you looking at the 526 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: death of Tyree Nichols. I mean, I think the main 527 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: thing for me was just the utter depravity that you 528 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: see in that video. You know, the fact of these officers, 529 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, they didn't see a human being. On the 530 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: other end of that, you know, a lot of times 531 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: officers will rough up a guy like this because they've 532 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: restaurant before. They know, I like people, he's harmed or hurt, 533 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: and so there's this, you know, instinct to kind of 534 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: punish him for transgressions that have nothing to do with 535 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: why they ran into him that night. There's none of 536 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 1: that with it. There's no evidence that he had done 537 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: anything wrong. The Memphis police you have even said, there's 538 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: no evidence that he was actually driving recklessly, which is 539 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: the reason why they pulled him over in the first place. 540 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: You know, they just didn't see him as a human being. 541 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: And it's really shocking and kind of hard to grasp 542 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: how someone could do that to somebody else. And you know, 543 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of psychiatric studies over the years 544 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: on how corrupting giving someone unlimited power over other people 545 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: can be and can make us sort of see the 546 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: people we have power over is something listen, human and 547 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: that's really on display in this video and I've never 548 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: seen it fight so starkly and it's hard to watch. 549 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: And on that sad note, i'd like to thank you 550 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: Radley for joining us today. You can find Radley's newsletter 551 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: The Watch on sub stack and his book The Rise 552 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: of the Warrior Cop wherever books are sold. Thanks again, Radley, 553 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: thanks for having on. We'll take another quick break. When 554 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: we return, we'll continue to talk about policing, but in 555 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: an international context with Lawrence Ralph, director of the Center 556 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: on Transnational Policing at Princeton University. I'm back with Lawrence Ralph. 557 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: He's an anthropology professor at Princeton and the director of 558 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: the Center on Transnational Policing there. Lawrence, it's great to 559 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: have you here and thanks for joining us. Thank you 560 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: for having me, Lawrence. I wish we're meeting under different 561 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: circumstances today. In some ways, is this a particularly American phenomenon? Militarization, 562 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: tactical units and these types of violent encounters we're seeing 563 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: between the police and some victims. Well, there's definitely American 564 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: aspects to it, particularly when we think about just the 565 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: prevalence of guns in our society and the way in 566 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: which people can get access to guns in a relatively 567 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: easy fashion. If you think about countries who we would 568 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: compare ourselves to in terms of democratization and things like this, 569 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: countries in Europe, there's not just the same level of 570 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: guns on the streets, and so what that does, particularly 571 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: when it comes to policing, is to make the police 572 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: believe that they need to have more guns, and better guns, 573 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: and more access to guns than the people who they 574 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: imagine are endangerous ones, which then creates a psycle where 575 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: there's just more guns circulating in society. So you would 576 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: pin this in part just simply to gun proliferation. That 577 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: is a very American phenomenon in that context, isn't it right. 578 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of the story. Again, 579 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: when you compare to countries where we say, oh, or 580 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: what's the safest country in the world, right, or countries 581 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: where you have the least incidents of police violence and 582 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: things like that, you find that uncincidentally, those countries do 583 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: not have the same level of guns proliferating and society. 584 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: Germany and France, maybe we could talk about both of 585 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: those countries. They do have heavily armored police forces that 586 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: they use for certain kinds of enforcement. If I'm maybe 587 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: I'm wrong on that, but that was my understanding. They do, 588 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: and those countries are adopting a lot of the same 589 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: tactics as the US as well and seeing increases in 590 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: incidents of police violence. And you know, there were the 591 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: French riots and the not too distant past, and they 592 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: have different histories in terms of the populations who are 593 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: the subject of assault, but they are using some of 594 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: the same tactics. And so in France, for example, a 595 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: lot of it has to do with migrant populations, populations 596 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,239 Speaker 1: of Algerians Malians who have come to the country and 597 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: are either first or second generations, and kind of in 598 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: response to dealing with the immigrant problem, some of the 599 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: same things are happening where you have these task force 600 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: that are formed just to deal with that issue, and 601 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: you have a disproportionate amount of people from that background 602 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: being subject to police violence and being harassed, stopped and 603 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: frists and things like this because they're quote unquote the 604 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: other exactly, not necessarily because they're a criminal threat, but 605 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: just they're a population of people deemed as outsiders and 606 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: the other, and then the police become this wedge to 607 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: keep them in place exactly exactly, so they're citizens, but 608 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: not the ideal French citizen from the country's perspective. There's 609 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: anthropologists did a Fascan who writes about this in a 610 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: book called Enforcing Order, and when he's talking about the 611 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: immigrant populations of color hate talks about how in French 612 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: society they're often considered quote unquote kind of bastards of 613 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: the nation and the sense that they belong, but they 614 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: don't quite belong in the naturalized way, and it affects 615 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: the way that their police in the communities in which 616 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: they live. And is there a similar dynamic in Germany 617 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: and in the UK there is a similar dynamic and 618 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: that there's a similar kind of rhetoric of who belongs 619 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: and who doesn't belong. In the UK, of course we 620 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: have Brexit as part of this kind of resurgent nationalism. 621 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: We see similar things in Germany and so I think 622 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: part of the issues we cannot disentangle the issue of 623 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: policing from the wider political context and acted if oh, 624 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: the police are just a separate entity who are just 625 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: enforcing the law, whereas politics is a different animal. Well, 626 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: they're all interrelated and connected, and so oftentimes you have 627 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: new policing tactics that are adapted to deal with the 628 00:32:53,360 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: political climate, and legislation justifies expenditure for policing, which also 629 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: impacts just the physical reality of police. How many are 630 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: on the streets, what they are equipped with when they're 631 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: on the streets, what kind of policing that they're engaged in. 632 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: You know, you said such an interesting thing earlier about 633 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: some of these other countries have actually absorbed and adopted 634 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: US policing tactics and a militarized approach to policing. However, 635 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: they don't seem to be having the same kind of 636 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: violent encounters. Are they managing those police units in a 637 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: different way than we do in the United States? No. 638 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: I think increasingly they are having this similar kind of encounters, 639 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: but it's just not at the same scale or it's 640 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: not publicized in the same way. But I think the 641 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: way that the police are operating is very similar, and 642 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: the solutions to crime are presumed to be very similar 643 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: in terms of blocking people up, getting people off the streets, 644 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: the kind of ideologies that led to mass incarceration in 645 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: the US, and what was the trigger for those countries 646 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: adopting those strategies. Given that we've wrestled with them so 647 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: heavily here in the US, it's had momentum of its own. 648 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: I think that's increased since the ninety nineties, you know, 649 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: and we've had a string of increasingly I think distressing 650 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: and violent encounters between the police, and primarily I think 651 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: the most troubling ones are with people of color, and 652 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: you can chart that safe from Rodney King all the 653 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: way to George Floyd and now with Tyree Nichols are 654 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: other Western democracy is not seeing the problematic pieces of 655 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: this and sort of entranced by the I don't know, 656 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: the glamorous display of power and force. Well. I think 657 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: one of the biggest issues is that it's politically valuable 658 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: to be tough on crime, and so that everywhere everywhere, 659 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: right in the context of democracy and the context of 660 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: elected officials being elected, keeping themselves an office, and even 661 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 1: moving to kind of higher pastures within the political landscape, right, 662 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: And so that is not just a rhetoric, but it 663 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: also comes with certain obligations to constituencies, law enforcement constituencies, 664 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: but it also comes with laws that have a raal 665 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: material impact. There's also a public will because it's in 666 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: one sense, it's low hanging fruit to say, you know, 667 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: we need to do something about the drug problem or 668 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: a problem that everyone knows is there, and oftentimes as 669 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: a citizenry, we lack the imagination of what else to do, 670 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: like what else can we do? And it's a it's 671 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: a blunt force solution to problems that have roots that 672 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: sometimes are apart from policing entirely and may not be 673 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: solved by that kind of an approach right exactly. And 674 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: so I think there is now more, at least in 675 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: the US, a greater public awareness of just the need 676 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: for an imagination of what else can we do? And 677 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: people are starting to think through Okay, mental health training 678 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: needs to be involved, We need to find different solutions. 679 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 1: But it is a slow process and it's not clear 680 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: exactly how it is going to happen, because the police 681 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,479 Speaker 1: don't want to lose their budget, you know, and so 682 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: they want to incorporate any solution into policing itself, where 683 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are against the idea of 684 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: giving more resources to the police want to see those 685 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: funds diverted to other social service initiatives, right, And so 686 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: there's even attention when people agree on the problem, there's 687 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: still not an agreement on how we're actually going to 688 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: get there. You know, the context of how we're actually 689 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: going to get there. You've closely examined New Orleans and 690 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: the use of police source there, and uh, I think 691 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: until recently, New Orleans had the highest per capita rate 692 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: of incarceration of any city in the world, I think, 693 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: not just the United States, but the world. And New 694 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: Orleans entered into a consent decree with the federal government 695 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: in twelve that called for monitoring of its police department. 696 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: How did that play out? How do you look at 697 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: New Orleans as a sort of test case of police oversight? Well, 698 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: I think studying the consent to create was very informative 699 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: because they basically tried to implement a lot of the 700 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: current solutions that are being advocated for, especially around the 701 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: use of force. And so they had community oversight and 702 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: their use of force hearings and which community members could 703 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: talk about what they felt, what they saw when they 704 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: watched these body cam videos that the police might not see. 705 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: They were trying to engage the community on anything from 706 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: what it looks like when they pull over a citizen 707 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: and why the interactions and might not go in the 708 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: way they anticipated, to outfitting everyone with body cams, to 709 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: thinking about mental health training within the police force, to 710 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: thinking about training for police officers to administer treatment for 711 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: drug addicts if they find somebody overdosing, right, And so 712 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: it was an interesting time to see where the pushback 713 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: was and the possibility of what was working. And part 714 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: of what we saw was it was hard for the 715 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: police to get past this idea of US versus them 716 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: that's very instilled within I think police officers since before 717 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: they joined the force, but definitely when they joined the 718 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: forces and reinscribed into them and frankly in American society 719 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: as a whole, not just the police force. Right. We're 720 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: in a profound US versus them Europe right now, right, 721 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: And so it really influences every thing from how you 722 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: perceived someone you know, whether they're a threat to you, 723 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: whether they're in need of help, whether they're engaged in 724 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: something that they should be locked up for, should warrant 725 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 1: drug rehabilitation for it, really affects the way in which 726 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 1: the police interact in every situation, and so I think 727 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: that kind of colored all of the interventions that were 728 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: taking place. They can look one way idealistically, but when 729 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: you get into the moment of encounter, into the moment 730 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: of conflict, there's a lot of area for things to 731 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: go awry, especially because there's so much police discretion in 732 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: a moment, right, There's such a difference between what is 733 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: supposed to happen, but what the police officer in the 734 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: moment has the latitude to do based on how they feel. 735 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: So if oversight was more authentically robust and had longer 736 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: and more lasting staying power, do you think that that 737 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: would help blunt the force of the cultural us versus 738 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: them mentality or do you feel hopeless about all that? No, 739 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: I think that would help in the same way that 740 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,240 Speaker 1: I think it helps that these officers are getting charged 741 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: in the Tyring Nichols case, Right, it helps in that sense. 742 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 1: But that's like an extreme version of oversight, right where 743 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,720 Speaker 1: it's it has to be the case where somebody's dying. 744 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: To get true oversight, it has to be a murder 745 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: charge for the police to get through oversight, where if 746 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: just a use of force incident, where like even if 747 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: Tyree Nichols didn't die or something like that, then what 748 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: would have been the oversight in that case? Right, It's 749 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: very likely that it would have been internal within the 750 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: police and it wouldn't an evolved the court or anything 751 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: like that, and the Union would have sat on it 752 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 1: exactly right. I was looking at some of your course 753 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: descriptions at Princeton, and any time I do this, it 754 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: makes me profoundly miss college again. You teach a class 755 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: at Princeton Policing and Militarization today, and in the course 756 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: description you say that you and your code teacher, quote 757 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 1: unquote aim neither to vindicate nor contest the police's right 758 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: to use force, whether a particular instance was a violation 759 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: of law, but instead to contribute to the understanding of force, 760 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:27,240 Speaker 1: its forms, justifications, interpretations. Can you talk a bit about 761 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: that with me and tell me what your goals are 762 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 1: for that class. Yeah, I mean this actually came out 763 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 1: of the New Orleans research when we realized that when 764 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: people are talking about police force, they actually didn't mean 765 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: the same things. Like there's a vast discrepancy in what 766 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: people think is forceful and what people think is violent 767 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: that we try to understand in the class and try 768 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: to unpack it, And a lot of it boils down 769 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: to safety, like what makes you feel safe and why? 770 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: And how does that have to do with policing and 771 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: why is it like that? You know, the incentive structure 772 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: for policing is a big part of it, and what 773 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: counts and what doesn't count is a big part of it. 774 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: How do you respond to people who say that police 775 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,479 Speaker 1: militarization and violence are the price of public safety? You know, yes, 776 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: I'm disturbed by these incidents, but they're rare, and I 777 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: just want to feel safe when I go out in 778 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: my front door. Yeah, I mean, I think it's the 779 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: question of what makes us feel safe and why, And 780 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: I think we need to constantly question that because oftentimes 781 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: our safety, what we think makes us safe, is at 782 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: the expense of other people who feel profoundly unsafe by 783 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: what we're pursuing and what we're doing, and so we 784 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: always have to think about those into relations and what 785 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: led to that. I mean, it's shocking to my students 786 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: that I remember a time where airports were hardened and 787 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: you could just walk walk right up to the gate. 788 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: You could walk right up to the gate, no problem. 789 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,439 Speaker 1: And I remember a time in which schools weren't hardened, right, 790 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: And like, these things happened because of very particular events. 791 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: Happened because nine of eleven happened because of the phenomenon 792 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:28,800 Speaker 1: of mass shootings, which drastically changed our perception of what's safety, 793 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: what it means to feel safe, what's threatening, what's threatening, 794 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: who's the threat, where's the threat coming from? Exactly So 795 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: I think that we need to we always need to 796 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: constantly think about what is shaping our perception of safety 797 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: and how might it change, and are those threats real? 798 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: And then why are we perceiving them as threats? Exactly right? 799 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 1: Because oftentimes, in terms of statistical argument, there are a 800 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,800 Speaker 1: lot of things that are more likely than a mass 801 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,879 Speaker 1: shooting or something like that, but we see it as 802 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: something that can always happen, and that's always happening. Right. 803 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,280 Speaker 1: What is unusual or instructive to you about Tyree Nichols death? 804 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: What what jumps out to you as a learning moment 805 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: for someone like yourself who's looked at this so deeply 806 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,879 Speaker 1: and thought about it for so long. Well, I think 807 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: we circled around this a lot in this podcast today. 808 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,359 Speaker 1: But I think what strikes me most is just the 809 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: idea of why someone wants to be a police officer. 810 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,800 Speaker 1: When I look at that incident, I don't actually see 811 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: people preoccupied with safety. I see people who are kind 812 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: of searching for a thrill, pursuing somebody as a kind 813 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: of hunt. I see the hunt as a kind of entertainment. 814 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: And I see police officers congratulating themselves for inflicting violence, 815 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: taking turns inflicting violence, bragging about what they've done. It 816 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: seems like they enjoy the themselves. And I think it's 817 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: a really exaggerated version of the kind of thing that 818 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: I've encountered when I've interviewed police officers in which a 819 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 1: lot of them mentioned TV shows, a lot of them 820 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: mentioned movies as the reason they got into policing. They 821 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,239 Speaker 1: mentioned a kind of identity that they wanted to have 822 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: as a young person and fulfilling that through policing. Some 823 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: people are then disenchanted when they get there and realize that, oh, 824 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: that's actually not what they're doing. But some people constantly 825 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: seek that out and want that, And especially when he 826 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: comes to these units like the Scorpion Unit or these 827 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: elite units, You're particularly more likely to get the kind 828 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: of officer who is in it for the thrill of it. 829 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: And that's what really really troubled me and jumped out 830 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: when I saw the Tyree Nichols just kind of unbridled 831 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: enthusiasm about they were enjoying it. Yeah, and where does 832 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: that come from? And how can we stop that? Then 833 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: becomes the question. I hope we can come back to 834 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: this together at some point. It's an important discussion. I 835 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: really thank you for joining us today, Lawrence. You can 836 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,760 Speaker 1: find Lawrence Ralph's book The Torture Letters, Reckoning with Police 837 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 1: Violence wherever books are sold here at crash Course. We 838 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: believe the collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and 839 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned that the 840 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,879 Speaker 1: culture of policing and in us versus that mentality may 841 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,680 Speaker 1: be so deeply baked into police culture that oversight is 842 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: only a first step, but not a last step, to 843 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: providing for better public safety. What did you learn? We'd 844 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,320 Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can tweet at the 845 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien 846 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also ascribed 847 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: to our show wherever you're listening right now and leave 848 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: us a review. It helps more people find the show. 849 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by the indispensable Anamazarakis and me. 850 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we had editing 851 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: help from Katie Boys, Jeff Grocott, Mike Nietza and Christine 852 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: van den Biler. Blake Maples does our sound engineering and 853 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: our original theme song was composed by Luis Gara. I'm 854 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week with another Crash Course.