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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 2: your weekly podcast about cool people who did the cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: One of the people who did cool stuff is doctor

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Speaker 2: kavejda House of pod. Some of the cool stuff you've

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Speaker 2: done in clothes, saving people's lives with medicine and entertaining

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Speaker 2: people with podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I like to think that I'm saving people

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Speaker 3: with my podcasts, saving them from boring medical podcasts. That's

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Speaker 3: what I feel like I'm saving them from.

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Speaker 2: But I have a question, because like I have to

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Speaker 2: kind of gas myself up to think that what I

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Speaker 2: do is meaningful and impactful. How does it feel to

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Speaker 2: be both like, Oh, I do this thing that's a

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Speaker 2: little bit more direct, and then I do this other

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Speaker 2: thing that's a little bit more ephemeral.

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Speaker 3: Uh. I'll tell you that's a really good question. First

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Speaker 3: of all, do not downplay what you do, Margaret. I

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Speaker 3: feel like your sphere of influence is bigger than even you,

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Speaker 3: you know, And so I think that your show is

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Speaker 3: really great. And I'm not just saying that because I'm

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Speaker 3: on it now. Although it helps, but there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of times in medicine where when you're doing things

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Speaker 3: to help somebody, it's not so obvious, like sometimes it's

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Speaker 3: really obvious, like if someone is having an emergency and

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Speaker 3: I fix it for them, that's great, it's super satisfying.

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Speaker 3: A lot of what you do is stuff where if

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Speaker 3: you're doing it right, the patient doesn't even notice it

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Speaker 3: doesn't and doesn't even like you don't get that immediate satisfaction.

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Speaker 3: That's a lot of what you do, and so you

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Speaker 3: kind of it's almost like you know, when you're talking

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Speaker 3: into this microphone and you know that you're doing you're

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Speaker 3: reaching people, but you can't see them. So it's a

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Speaker 3: little bit of a different feeling. It's kind of like

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Speaker 3: that in medicine a lot too. Or it's like I

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Speaker 3: know a lot of what I'm doing is very important

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Speaker 3: in helping somebody, but it won't show for many years

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Speaker 3: or maybe they'll never notice it all. That's how I

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Speaker 3: know I did a good job. So it's actually kind

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Speaker 3: of similar, I guess, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: No, that actually that actually makes a lot of sense

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Speaker 2: to me. Yeah, today we're going to talk about someone

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Speaker 2: who both directly and indirectly, like did both things right,

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Speaker 2: and in this case, it was fighting fascism and totalitarianism.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait, Cave, have you ever heard of books?

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Speaker 3: But I've seen them. I've seen them. I had a

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Speaker 3: couple when I was younger. I experimented a little bit,

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Speaker 3: if I'm being honest, in college.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and well.

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Speaker 3: Now I don't have so many of them because it's

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Speaker 3: all in the interwebs. But yeah, I'm familiar with the concept.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Kave is wearing a book shirt right now, just

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Speaker 2: to H.

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Speaker 3: Powell's City of Books.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just amazing bookstore.

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Speaker 4: Ah my peoples.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, today, you guys, we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 2: guy who made some books, some of which readers have

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Speaker 2: probably readers listeners have probably read.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's probably people reading this podcast, so I'm sure

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Speaker 3: that there's people just doing the conscriptions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. A couple months ago, I talked about

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Speaker 2: one of the people who is the most commonly misquoted,

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Speaker 2: constantly misunderstood writer with way better politics than anyone realized.

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Speaker 2: His name was Oscar Wilde. Oh, and this week we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about another constantly misquoted, constantly misunderstood writer

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Speaker 2: who had way better politics than anyone realized. This guy

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Speaker 2: was a big fan of Oscar Wilde. Wild was a

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Speaker 2: major political influence on him. His name you might have

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Speaker 2: heard of before is George Orwell.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, oh yeah, I've heard I've heard of George orwell, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's how you know he's big.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like most people who h read in

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Speaker 2: English have heard of George Orwell. That is my hypothesis here.

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Speaker 3: That's a fair.

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Speaker 2: That's fair, And I'm going to make a bunch of

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Speaker 2: claims about him. One of is that some people hate him,

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Speaker 2: and they usually hate him for the wrong reasons. There

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Speaker 2: are reasons to hate him, but I don't, and we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about that.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait. I have to admit I don't know

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Speaker 3: a ton. I know like nineteen eighty four in Animal Form,

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Speaker 3: and when I was very very young the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: four movie came out. I think it came out like

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Speaker 3: I was too young to watch it, but I remember

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Speaker 3: seeing it on like HBO once when I was like

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Speaker 3: way too young, and it traumatized me in a deep,

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Speaker 3: deep way.

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Speaker 2: So I just rat on his face or whatever.

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Speaker 3: He's a broke I remember him just being totally broken

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Speaker 3: at the end of it, and so that affected me deeply, deeply,

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Speaker 3: So I Yes, I'm very excited to learn more about him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's an emotionally effective writer, which is interesting because

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Speaker 2: he's not an emotionally expressive person. And we'll talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Some of his biggest sort of some of the misunderstandings

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Speaker 2: or correct understandings of him are around the fact that

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Speaker 2: he did not express much emotion. George Orrell was a

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Speaker 2: man who went from privileged son of the empire to

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Speaker 2: colonial cop to anti fascist fighter who took a bullet

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Speaker 2: to the neck fighting Franco in Spain, to going on

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Speaker 2: to write some of the best English language commentary on

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Speaker 2: totalitarianism and being a major anti imperialist writer at the time.

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Speaker 2: This was a man whose sole guiding principle was he

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Speaker 2: believed in what he called common decency. And while he's

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Speaker 2: often painted as an anti socialist because his works are

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Speaker 2: critical of the USSR, he was very explicitly a democratic

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Speaker 2: socialist to the end of his days. He was absolutely

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Speaker 2: on the left, and he put all of his money

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Speaker 2: towards making the world a better place, and he lived

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Speaker 2: really modestly, and he also put a lot of money

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Speaker 2: towards his son. So that's like what he did with

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Speaker 2: his money. So far liking it, unliking where this is headed.

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Speaker 2: He's a complicated figure. His homophobia and unaddressed misogyny are

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Speaker 2: woven throughout his writings. However, I'm going to complicate especially

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Speaker 2: his misogyny, in a minute. His actions did not always

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Speaker 2: live up to his lofty ideals, especially when he was younger.

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Speaker 2: He is my problematic fave. He's just problematic for different

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Speaker 2: reasons than some of the listeners who are already mad

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Speaker 2: at me for talking about him. Assume, huh, so.

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Speaker 3: It's people that are mad about this already.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, authoritarian communists hate him. Everyone else wants to claim him.

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Speaker 2: The right wing wants to claim him, the center left,

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Speaker 2: the anarchists, everyone is like, he's our guy, right except

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Speaker 2: the authoritarian left, who are like, we hate this man

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Speaker 2: with the burning heat of a thousand sons.

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Speaker 3: Okay, all right, Can I ask a question. Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: hear the term tanky used a lot.

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Speaker 2: So yes, tankies hate him. Okay, I'm using the term correctly. Yes,

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Speaker 2: minitarian socialists specifically who are like totally fine with the

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Speaker 2: worst excesses of the USSR.

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Speaker 3: Okay. I apologize to your listeners in advance because I

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Speaker 3: asked some very stupid questions. No, very actively pro those

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Speaker 3: kinds of questions being esca and Orwell would be very

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Speaker 3: happy that you were asking these questions too, because one

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Speaker 3: of Orwell's whole things was fuck jargon. He was like,

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Speaker 3: if you are writing, I'm going to get to it later.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna talk about rules of writing. He's like, only

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Speaker 3: used jargon if it is the only word to describe

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Speaker 3: what you're saying. Got it.

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Speaker 2: A million books have been written about George Orwell, and

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Speaker 2: I haven't read them all. An awful lot of books

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Speaker 2: were written by George Orwell, and I've read a lot

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Speaker 2: of them, but I haven't read all of them. Some

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Speaker 2: of the books I haven't read are the ones he

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Speaker 2: says he wished he hadn't written, So I feel fine.

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Speaker 2: He's not a fan of his early work. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: read read one of his books that he says he

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Speaker 2: didn't wish he hadn't read, and that actually was a

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Speaker 2: kind of an interesting book. It's called Keith the Asperdistra Flying,

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Speaker 2: and it's about a middle class guy who wants to

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Speaker 2: be poor in this slumming it and ends up therefore

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Speaker 2: just sort of taking advantage of his girlfriend because she

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Speaker 2: has a middle class job, and he refuses to have

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Speaker 2: a middle class job. And it was actually like probably

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Speaker 2: useful to me for me to read as like a

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Speaker 2: squatter who often stayed with partners, you know.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, Yeah, that's an interesting I'm sure there's an interesting

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Speaker 3: insight into that, Like I could see also why people

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Speaker 3: from the right try to claim him and anything they

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Speaker 3: don't like that seems kind of like weirdly authoritarian. They'll

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Speaker 3: like reference like nineteen eighty four. I've seen both sides reference.

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Speaker 3: This is like nineteen eighty four. This is like thought

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Speaker 3: police nineteen eighty four, you know, on both sides, the

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Speaker 3: right in particular, I see using it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And he was Georgi Ro was incredibly critical of

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Speaker 2: the left. He was critical of the authoritarian left, and

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Speaker 2: he loved the democratic left and he loved the anarchist

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Speaker 2: left and more the democratic left is how he fully aligned.

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Speaker 2: But we're going to talk about later about how at

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Speaker 2: the end of his life he was like everyone who's

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Speaker 2: fighting for socialism, who isn't fighting for stalin, I'm I'm your.

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Speaker 3: Guy, bored with them, common decency, anti jargon. So far

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Speaker 3: I'm on board with this guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, no, especially end of his life or will.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, this man is more fave less problematic,

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Speaker 2: and actually some of the ways he develops through is

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Speaker 2: kind of okay, well, we'll get to it, Okay. So

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to talk about his life and his

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Speaker 2: adventures and especially how was thinking developed and how he

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Speaker 2: always worked to improve himself and become less of an asshole.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to focus more on the parts of

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Speaker 2: his life that are interesting to me, because there's also

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Speaker 2: I feel a bit dirty doing anything that presents it

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Speaker 2: as like the biographical sketch of this man, because in

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Speaker 2: his will, he was like, please don't write biographies about me.

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Speaker 3: He was I'm sure nobody listened.

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Speaker 2: Nobody listened. Actually, one of the sort of some of

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Speaker 2: the books, some of the books that came out kind

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Speaker 2: of right away after he died, were a little bit

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Speaker 2: more like we're auctions on his life and writing that

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Speaker 2: were a little bit like, hey, I knew the guy,

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Speaker 2: and I swear this isn't a biography.

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Speaker 3: He'd be cool with this. He'd be cool with this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Like and it's like or it's even kind

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Speaker 2: of a like, hey, sorry, man, you know, like, don't worry,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to get into everything. I just want

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Speaker 2: to talk You're important and we got to talk about you.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: Why Why didn't he want this? Because he didn't want

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Speaker 3: people to focus on him and his story they want

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Speaker 3: he want people to focus on his works, or because

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Speaker 3: there's things in his past he didn't want people like

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Speaker 3: so talking about.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a combo a little bit of those.

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Speaker 2: He was deeply private, right, and so he really compartmentalized

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Speaker 2: what he wrote about and like what he lived, which

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Speaker 2: is interesting because a lot of his books, especially as

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Speaker 2: early books, are autobiographical. He writes these books about like slumming, right.

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Speaker 2: That's like kind of how he makes his name is

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Speaker 2: that he like literally dresses up as a tramp and

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Speaker 2: goes around and like lives as a hobo and for

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Speaker 2: a while when he's young and he's like from the

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Speaker 2: middle class, right, but he like still compartmentalizes out certain

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Speaker 2: parts of his life, especially like his intimate life, Like

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Speaker 2: he doesn't talk about his wife where you talk about

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Speaker 2: a bunch Like some people have been like, oh, because

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Speaker 2: he's a misogynist. I honestly, as best as I can tell,

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Speaker 2: I think it's because they had an agreement where it

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Speaker 2: was like, no, leave me out of your writing. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, and so he compartmentalized, like hell he also

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about some of the there's two bad things

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Speaker 2: he did too, like big.

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Speaker 4: Could he also be a guy with imposter syndrome?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Interesting?

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Speaker 4: That was my first thought.

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Speaker 2: I think. I think eventually he kind of came into

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Speaker 2: being like I am who I am? But he actually

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Speaker 2: I have read a bunch about how he he had

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Speaker 2: sort of imposter syndrome in that he didn't under he

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Speaker 2: like because he was so used to people kind of

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Speaker 2: shitting on him that once he like kind of came

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Speaker 2: into his power, he wasn't always totally aware of it.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting.

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Speaker 4: Is there two types of people that are like extreme

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Speaker 4: like of Orwellian success, that are like either like yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's me, or they have major imposter syndrome?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? No, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, something I'm very familiar with the medicine. It

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Speaker 3: was literally just talking to a group of medical students

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Speaker 3: just yesterday about this, and I prepared them and I said, listen,

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Speaker 3: you're going to have imposter syndrome, and you're going to

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Speaker 3: have it for probably the next thirty to forty years.

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Speaker 3: It's never going to go away.

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Speaker 2: I get told, well, then you're going to turn into

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Speaker 2: an assholeho thinks you know have better than all the

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Speaker 2: people who actually have been to med school more recently,

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Speaker 2: no more recent stuff.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, or you find a way to have both, which

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Speaker 3: is what a lot of doctors do. Okay, to be

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Speaker 3: assholes with imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So for anyone who's unfamiliar with this man, which

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Speaker 2: is totally fair. The short version is that there was

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Speaker 2: an english Man who first wrote under and then lived

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Speaker 2: under the name George Orwell, but that wasn't his birthname.

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Speaker 2: He fought in the Spanish Civil War, where he was

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Speaker 2: soured on authoritarian leftism because of what he saw there.

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Speaker 2: He almost was killed by He stayed committed to democratic socialism,

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Speaker 2: but he wrote two of the most famous books ever

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Speaker 2: written against totalitarianism, the book Animal Farm, about a bunch

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Speaker 2: of farmyard animals that have a revolution, only to have

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Speaker 2: one group of those animals decide that they are more

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Speaker 2: deserving than the other animals, and the book nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 2: about a totalitarian society that tries to control how everyone

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Speaker 2: thinks and how much that sucks. And he is famously

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Speaker 2: quoted by all kinds of people, including the kinds of

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Speaker 2: people that he actually threw grenades at fascists, and so

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Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about him. George Orwell was born Eric

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Speaker 2: Arthur Blair on June twenty fifth, nineteen oh three. People

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Speaker 2: often say George Orwell was a pen name, and you'll

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Speaker 2: kind of run across people and like, ah, I know

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Speaker 2: his real name. It's Eric Blair. It was a chosen name.

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Speaker 2: By the end of his life, the only people called

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Speaker 2: him Eric were like bank managers and shit, like you

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Speaker 2: saw Eric when he signed the checks, because he never

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Speaker 2: changed the paperwork on his name. I'm a fan of

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Speaker 2: choosing your owname. So I'm going to go with George throughout,

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Speaker 2: not because it's like a dead name to call him Erica,

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Speaker 2: but just you know, it's what I mean.

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Speaker 3: My only question is like, it's not I don't like

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Speaker 3: why why?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a horizontal move. It's like, yeah, this man

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Speaker 2: name is this man named?

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Speaker 3: I mean, Eric Arthur Blair also sounds like a pretty

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Speaker 3: cool author name, like why why not?

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Speaker 2: Okay, George is a more working class name. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of like going by Joe in America, liking Joe the

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Speaker 2: Plumber or whatever. You know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still like.

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Speaker 2: Every man name, and he wants an every man name

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Speaker 2: because he's a middle class dude. Wo has imposter syndrome

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Speaker 2: as a working class person, right, because he wants to

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Speaker 2: be working classes. It's like his whole thing. It's in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four too.

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Speaker 4: I just think his entire like ethosis imposter syndrome. That's

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Speaker 4: my Yeah, no's my theory going in.

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Speaker 2: I I actually and I want to see whether you

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Speaker 2: readdress it at the end, but I think it's just

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Speaker 2: going to get reinforced and orwell. Is the name of

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Speaker 2: a river that he lived in?

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Speaker 4: That's nice?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's I think it's perfectly sweet. He was

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Speaker 2: born in Motihari, India, into not money but like English

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Speaker 2: fanciness and colonial evil.

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Speaker 3: He is his.

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Speaker 2: Great grandfather Charles Blair. His great great grandfather, Charles Blair

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Speaker 2: was a rich and powerful slaver who made his money

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Speaker 2: owning people in Jamaica and married the daughter of an earl.

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Speaker 2: George's dad, Richard Blair, worked in the Opium Department and

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Speaker 2: the British Colonial Project in India, overseeing the growth of

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Speaker 2: opium and its sale to China.

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Speaker 3: So not good, Yeah, that this is This is a

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Speaker 3: more interesting start than I expected. I was expecting something

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Speaker 3: a lot more like, you know, uh, English downtrodden, like

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Speaker 3: industrial revolutionary sort of vibe. Yeah, it's worldly. I'll give

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Speaker 3: him that. It's worldly.

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Speaker 2: And what's interesting too is that his like the way

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Speaker 2: he says middle class, I'm like, is different than what

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Speaker 2: America thinks of his middle class, because middle class in

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Speaker 2: America is like a working class thing on some level.

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Speaker 2: England is fucking weird about class. Orwell described his upbringing

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Speaker 2: as lower upper middle class, which meant that they had

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Speaker 2: the prestige and thought well of themselves of the upper

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Speaker 2: middle class, but they had no money, so they were

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Speaker 2: lower middle class. So they were a lower upper middle class.

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Speaker 3: Right, very showy, but didn't have a lot of maybe

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Speaker 3: like house rich, but like not otherwise.

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Speaker 2: With yeah, and like position of power in evil colonial

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Speaker 2: government rich right right when he was one, his mom,

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Speaker 2: who was a feminist and a suffragette and an activist,

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Speaker 2: we I don't know as much about us. I kind

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Speaker 2: of wish I had. It's only there's so much written

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Speaker 2: about this man. His mom packed him up and moved

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Speaker 2: him back to England, whereupon he had a childhood that

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Speaker 2: he relentlessly described as miserable, and all of his childhood

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Speaker 2: friends are like that boy was happy, life was good.

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Speaker 2: He's just being dramatic. It's like consistent. There's like multiple

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Speaker 2: times through this period where he's like, he writes these

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Speaker 2: essays about what a fucking miserable life he had, and

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Speaker 2: he's like kind of a poser about being miserable in

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Speaker 2: some ways, although he is a he has a hard life.

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Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong. He's gonna die at forty six.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, he survives getting shot through the neck. I

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Speaker 2: already spoiled that part. Like he's a he's an interesting life.

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Speaker 2: He did some British people shit, like he went off

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Speaker 2: to boarding school. He went to a place called Eton

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Speaker 2: that is fancy as hell.

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Speaker 4: Oh fuck yeah, you ever heard of it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's what's called public school. And because British

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Speaker 2: people have everything backwards, because it's a private school, I

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Speaker 2: finally for this episode looked up what the fuck that means.

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Speaker 2: I've known this for a long time that public school

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Speaker 2: means private school if you're in England, and it means

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Speaker 2: like fancy ass shit. Right, it's called public school. This's

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Speaker 2: got its name because even though it's a private school.

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Speaker 2: As long as your parents could pay your tuition, you

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Speaker 2: could go regardless of like where your parents lived or

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Speaker 2: what they did for a living. But it's where the

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Speaker 2: rulers of the empire and shit go right.

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Speaker 3: Very confusing.

361
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Speaker 2: England is a weird, complicated class night Maryland where there's

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Speaker 2: an Eaten accent. I didn't know that, and so you'll

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Speaker 2: be judged your entire life, like positively or negatively because

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Speaker 2: you have an Eton accent.

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Speaker 3: It's like the Ivy League sort of accent.

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Speaker 4: Sort of Okay, Hugh Laurie played House MD. You want

367
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Speaker 4: to eat in? And I just think that's fun to

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Speaker 4: tell my friend doctor Phota.

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Speaker 2: Of the House of Pod.

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Speaker 3: True, we're not named after that, no, I must say,

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Speaker 3: but I love to tell you that. Yeah, No, I went.

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Speaker 2: To eaton right, Yeah, of course we all went to

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Speaker 2: eat in here.

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Speaker 3: Listen to me. You can hear it in my voice.

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Speaker 4: It's like a very popular school for politicians and like

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Speaker 4: nepotism and miss actors. Yeah, it's yeah. Josh James stout

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Speaker 4: what he thinks of Eden.

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Speaker 2: I will he George or what was a scholarship boy

379
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Speaker 2: at Eton because his parents didn't have any money, and

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Speaker 2: he had, like, did well enough at prep school to

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Speaker 2: get scholar I.

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Speaker 4: Imposter syndrome with theory is just getting because they were

383
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Speaker 4: they were so mean to him, were they they were horrible?

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Speaker 2: Well, he wrote that they were incredibly mean to him

385
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Speaker 2: constantly for being a scholarship boy.

386
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

387
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Speaker 2: Everyone else from that time in that school is like,

388
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Speaker 2: what are you talking about? He played sports with us,

389
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Speaker 2: We liked him.

390
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Speaker 3: He might just be a sensitive guy.

391
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Speaker 2: He is super sensitive, but makes a good artist.

392
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel that.

393
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Speaker 2: Like, honestly, he's into sports. He grows up to be

394
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Speaker 2: not a small person. More academic sources he's six foot two.

395
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,880
Speaker 2: More personal sources he's six foot four, So no one's

396
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Speaker 2: arguing yet he is small.

397
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

398
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Speaker 2: He's also sickly his entire life. He has two intense

399
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 2: spouts of pneumonia as a kid, and he never fully

400
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 2: re covered. He finishes school. Everyone else is off to university.

401
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 2: George wants to be different. He wants adventure. He wanted orientalism.

402
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 2: He wanted to go become a cop in Burma. Oh well,

403
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 2: what a choice. I know. The two worst things he

404
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 2: did he did when he was eighteen years old. One

405
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 2: of them was going to be a cop in Burma.

406
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Speaker 2: He's a sensitive guy, and now I'm gonna talk about

407
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Speaker 2: the other worst thing he did. Sensive guy trying to

408
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,200
Speaker 2: fight it. He was trying to fight his sensitive nature.

409
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Speaker 2: That's what's happening. That's how I'm putting this together in

410
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 2: my home. I know, and I think he wants orientalism.

411
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Speaker 2: He wants like adventure and shit. And he also doesn't

412
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Speaker 2: have a critique of the colonial project. Yet he's going

413
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Speaker 2: to get one by becoming a colonial cop like he

414
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: does the best case what all cops should do, which

415
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: is quit, is what he does, and then spend the

416
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Speaker 2: rest of his life writing against the system that he

417
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Speaker 2: was a part of.

418
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

419
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 2: But the other thing that he's going to spend the

420
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Speaker 2: rest of his life regretting. If you read between the

421
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Speaker 2: lines in one direction and then completely ignore that he

422
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 2: did if you read between the lines and the other direction.

423
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 2: Is the reason that I wrote off George Orwell for

424
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Speaker 2: a long time, because I knew this, even though it

425
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 2: only kind of came out more recently. Most overviews of

426
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 2: his life glide right past this. He tried to rape

427
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Speaker 2: his best friend after she friend zoned him when he

428
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Speaker 2: was eighteen, years old, and people who don't talk about it.

429
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 2: To be fair, no one talked about it at all.

430
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 2: Didn't No one learned this until he'd been dead for

431
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 2: about fifty years. Historians like to quabble, quibble whatever about

432
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: how to characterize it. Sometimes they call it assault or

433
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 2: attempted rape. Wikipedia called it, calls it a botched seduction.

434
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Speaker 2: His friend that this happened to, by the end of

435
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 2: her life is not mad about it and saw him

436
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 2: as the one who got away and wished she'd married him.

437
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,719
Speaker 2: It is complicated. What he did is not complicated. The

438
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 2: long term impact, the way that that move, other parts

439
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 2: of it are complicated. When he was a kid, he

440
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: became super close friends with the family, two sisters and

441
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 2: a brother. When he's like eleven or whatever. The sister

442
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 2: is about two years older than him, and his name

443
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: Jacyntha Buddhicum, and the story of how they met sounds

444
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 2: like a twee British novel. This thirteen year old girl

445
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 2: goes out into her family's garden and there's this eleven

446
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 2: year old boy standing on his head. She says, what

447
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 2: are you doing? And I've read two versions of this.

448
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: He either says, quote you are noticed more if you

449
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: stand on your head than if you're a right way up.

450
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: I've also read you notice more if you stand on

451
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: your head then either way. Fucking twee novel. Shit, it's

452
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 2: real cheshire Cat like Alice in Wonderland.

453
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 3: Have you ever stood on your head? Yeah?

454
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 1: I have?

455
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. They become friends young George while he's

456
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: Eric at this point. They become close friends and they

457
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 2: hang out all the time, talking about poetry and books

458
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: and how they're going to become great writers together and shit.

459
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 2: And she becomes a poet and he becomes a famous writer.

460
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 2: He thought they would be more than friends and she didn't.

461
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 2: And it gets really kind of into in cul territory

462
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: before the assault. It's almost kind of funny. His first

463
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: love poem probably was to her when he was about

464
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 2: fifteen years old. It's called the Pagan because the Buddhicoms

465
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: were agnostics and their school was like being weird them

466
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 2: about it, like we might kick out your whole family

467
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 2: because you don't believe in God or whatever you know.

468
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 2: And the poem starts, and to be clear, he's fifteen

469
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 2: when he writes this, So here are you? And here

470
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: am I? Where we may thank our gods to be

471
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: above the earth, beneath the sky, naked souls, alive and free.

472
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: And she writes back this critique, so she's like trying

473
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: to cleverly just friendz him. She's like, hey, maybe change

474
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: naked to unarmored. Oh yeah, that's a much better choice,

475
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 2: I know. So he wrote back her another. He wrote

476
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: her another poem, Friendship and love are closely intertwined. My

477
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 2: heart belongs to your befriending mind, but chilling sunlit fields,

478
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: cloud shadows fall, my love can't reach your heedless heart

479
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: at all.

480
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 3: Great, that's I mean, that is pure cringe low. Yeah,

481
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 3: young teenager. I feel the discomfort in my stomach. I

482
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 3: get the clamps. You think about something you did that

483
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: was really embarrassing. That's what's happening to me hearing this.

484
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: She writes back. By light too bright, our dazzled eyes betrayed.

485
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,479
Speaker 2: It's best to rest content and tranquil shade.

486
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 3: So I'm not as literary as you, because you're an

487
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 3: excellent writer, and I write basically progress notes on patients.

488
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 3: But it sounds very much so that He's like, I'm

489
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 3: so into you, And she is very deafly and artfully

490
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 3: being like, I'm going to have a little fun with

491
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 3: this game, but also make it clear that it's not

492
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 3: going anywhere and that you need to chill.

493
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what he should have done is chill out

494
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: by listening to advertisements in the middle of an anti

495
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 2: capitalist podcast.

496
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 3: Works for me.

497
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: And we're back. Yeah, no, exactly. It's a he's writing

498
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: love poetry and she's writing just friends poetry, right, you know,

499
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: just friend's poetry. Yeah, this genre, I know. They go

500
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: on walks daily. Then one day, when he was eighteen,

501
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: as recounted by a family friend quote, he had attempted

502
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 2: to take things further and make serious love to Jacyntha.

503
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: He had held her down. By that time, he was

504
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: six foot four and she was under still under five

505
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: feet and though she struggled yelling at him to stop,

506
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: he had torn her skirt and badly bruised a shoulder

507
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 2: and her left hip. When Jacynthia yelled to stop, Eric

508
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: let her go. Jacyntha ran home crying. They never saw

509
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 2: each other again.

510
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 4: Oh, he's a best he's a piece of shit.

511
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: This is yeah, this is the like people are mad

512
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: at orwell for the wrong reasons. This is an understanding.

513
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 2: This is why I completely wrote off Orwell for years. Honestly,

514
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: it's because I knew this part of the story, and

515
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: to skip around in this timeline, the timeline of his

516
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: life a little bit, just to finish out her story. Okay,

517
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: So Orwell comes home from Burma five years later, and

518
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 2: he had a ring ready to propose because he's still

519
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: in love with her and whatever, this is an insult.

520
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: He stays at her aunt's house and Orwell called her

521
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 2: in London, begging her to come visit, and she refused,

522
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: and he never found out why. He assumed, and this

523
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 2: would be a perfectly legitimate assumption that this was because

524
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: she was mad about what he'd done. It actually wasn't.

525
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: She refused to come visit because she had just had

526
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 2: a kid with some random dude and who had then

527
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: ditched her, and then she was trying to put the

528
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 2: kid up for adoption and she was busy. Decades later,

529
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: as he's on his deathbed, they reconnected through letters, and

530
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: he to her he was the one who got away.

531
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: Decades later, in the nineteen seventies, she wrote a memoir

532
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: called Eric and Me about their time together, and she

533
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 2: did so after quote a lifetime of ghosts and regrets

534
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: at turning away the only man who ever appealed on

535
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 2: all levels. How I wish I had been ready for

536
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 2: betrothal when Eric asked me to marry him on his

537
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: return from Burma. It took me literally years to realize

538
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: that we are all imperfect creatures, but that Eric was

539
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: less imperfect than anyone else I'd ever met. And this

540
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: is so interesting to me, because fuck, what a bar

541
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: The bar that the other men aren't passing is to

542
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: be better than the man who assaulted her.

543
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, did she address it in that book?

544
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. I haven't read that book. I think

545
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: I read about how the story of it came up,

546
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: and like there's a lot of like it's all little

547
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: bit third hand about what happened. Like literally, the quote

548
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: that I read about what happened is the most direct

549
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: retelling in print of what happened. And it was her

550
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: sister's friend recounting it and none of this, like and

551
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: the fact that she then is like, oh, he's the

552
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: one who got away, none of that because she kind

553
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: of had a pretty sad life. I think this doesn't

554
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: excuse what he did, But I I think that you

555
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: end up with this thing that informs his writing where

556
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 2: he sees men as monstrous because he sees himself as

557
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: monstrous because of what he had done. And it's interesting,

558
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: it's not I don't.

559
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, that's that's that is such a tough situation.

560
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: I mean, clearly there's some real trauma there for both

561
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: of them.

562
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: And and way more for her obviously.

563
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously way more for her. And it made it

564
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: even worse by the fact that, like comparatively, she still

565
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 3: holds him on a pedestal, you know. Yeah, that's it

566
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: really just goes to show like how bad the interactions

567
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: with these other men in her life must have been,

568
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 3: including probably this guy that she had had the kid

569
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: with who knows. Yeah, I mean sounds terrible on all lands.

570
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: No, I know, and it yeah, And so now I'm

571
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: just going to get into all the stuff that the

572
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: bad stuff about orwell that.

573
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: People talk about, just to do it. Let's get into it.

574
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: Before we talk more about his life. There's an awful

575
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: lot of arguments about whether or not Orwell was a

576
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: misogynist or a feminist or sort of neither. His writing

577
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: is like the Bible, there's so much of it written

578
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: at such different times that it's really easy to take

579
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: quotes out of context and paint whatever picture you want.

580
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: His male protagonists are almost universally misogynistic. The protagonist of

581
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four is violent fantasies. For example. The only

582
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: female protagonist he ever wrote was in a book called

583
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: A Clergyman's Daughter, which is one of these books that

584
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: I haven't read, but he also wishes he hadn't published.

585
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: In that the protagonist is by an older man, and

586
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: then they become friends, and it is generally considered his

587
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: worst book, including by him. He does not know how

588
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: to write women well. He also hated this book and

589
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: in his will asked for it to not be reprinted.

590
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 2: He told his friend it was the worst book he

591
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: ever wrote, and he'd only published it because he'd been

592
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: so hard up for money and then for fun. Counterexamples

593
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: to his misogyny later in life. There's this story recounted

594
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: by a different man who doesn't use the name of

595
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: the woman involved. There's this like they're in this literary

596
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: scene together, all these mostly men, and there's this young

597
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: ha woman in the literary scene, and you know it's

598
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: like written as like, oh, every head turned when she

599
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: walked by, et cetera. Later, that woman complains about all

600
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: of the men in the literary circle on how they

601
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: objectifire except or Well, the only person who didn't creep

602
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: on her and didn't treat her as a woman, but

603
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: as a person. I have read so many interpretations of

604
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: Orwell and misogyny, like I wish this hadn't been such.

605
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: I understand why I had to be such an large

606
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 2: part of my research for this because of this that

607
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: he had done. You know, Yeah, there's a lot of

608
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: convincing arguments from every position I leaned towards sort of

609
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: that he portrayed more misogynist men, not out of unconscious misogyny,

610
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: but out of attempting to draw attention to his own misogyny,

611
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,959
Speaker 2: at least later in life. I think his earlier writing

612
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: is unaddressed misogyny.

613
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 3: I can I ask a question about that, And this

614
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: is I guess, a bigger question on writing. Like the

615
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: fact that his characters are misogynistic, it doesn't necessarily mean

616
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 3: that he was embracing that, right. I mean, because I

617
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 3: always felt like his characters were all flawed, and he

618
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: wanted to show that they were all deeply flawed, and

619
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: like the fact that they were misogynistic feels like him

620
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: critiquing it. It feels like he did that on purpose,

621
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: to be like, this is a bad trait.

622
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think overall that's true, And yes, absolutely, we're

623
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: actually currently in an era where people are having a

624
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: little bit of a hard time separating a care character

625
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: from the author. On the other hand, we're also in

626
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: a time where people are getting better at not letting

627
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: misogynist male writers get away with being like, no, it's

628
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: just my character, because there are absolutely people who are

629
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: just like, oh, it's just my characters who are all

630
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: racist pieces of shit. I'm totally great, you know.

631
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I.

632
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: Think that there are people who do a better job

633
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: of it than or well of like making it clear,

634
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: because he believed in very clear writing, right, and so

635
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 2: I think this is an actual weak spot of his

636
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: because I don't think he successfully always addressed this. But

637
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: it is a little bit my impression because keep the

638
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: aspertise for flying, for example, seems like a critique of

639
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: the We call them googles in my scene, and this

640
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,959
Speaker 2: is like not a word that anyone else uses. Okay, googles,

641
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to learn there's a word called Google. An

642
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: oogle is a crusspunk who like lives out of a

643
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: backpack and travels around and eats trash and lives in squats.

644
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: I was an oogle for a very long time. It's

645
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: a slightly pejorative word, but but it's a very reclaimed

646
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: one and it only exists in this tiny, weird subculture. Okay,

647
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: So from there we get other words, like a Google

648
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: is a dog. Google, it's the dog that lives with

649
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: the yougle Okay, right, a Google is a boo, that's

650
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: an oogle. So if you live on your if instead

651
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: of living on someone's couch, which would be googling, you

652
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: live in someone's bed and your partner pays rent and

653
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: you don't, that's called googling googling.

654
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: Wow.

655
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: And I think he's critiquing that. It's possible he wasn't.

656
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: It's possible he was just unconsciously so lost in his

657
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: own character's head.

658
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 3: Right.

659
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: But when I read that when I was like twenty,

660
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: I thought he was critiquing it, and I was not

661
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: in a particularly good I was, so I that's my read.

662
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 2: My read is that he is on some level trying

663
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: to critique misogyny but not doing a particularly adepth job

664
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: at it and sometimes falling into it.

665
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 3: Let me ask a super naive question, and I don't

666
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 3: ask this to justify.

667
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: I don't know gennology of Google, right, No, no, no.

668
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm gonna google that later.

669
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: Oh it's not it doesn't exist. No one knows it.

670
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: Oh anyway, Okay, Well, I have a friend who is

671
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: like a master's degree who used to be a no Google,

672
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: who tried to figure it out.

673
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: Probably continue on it. Okay, So I don't ask this

674
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 3: question to join to justify in any way misogynistic writing.

675
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: But were there writers of his time? I'm assuming there

676
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: are that you felt did a better job of writing

677
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: women's voices male writers, I mean, or were they all

678
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: pretty terrible at this point? I mean, I don't know

679
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 3: if they're better now, honestly, and I feel like I

680
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 3: should read more, but like especially.

681
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 2: At the time, I am not certain, which is funny

682
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 2: because this is the era I used to like read

683
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 2: a lot, you know, when I was like a young,

684
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: pretentious teenager, I read an awful lot of like Turn

685
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: of the Century up to about nineteen fifty, like good literature.

686
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 2: I liked all the literature. I don't have an immediate

687
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: answer for you. I think that overall that that cadre

688
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: of writers tended to be pretty bad at it. But

689
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's exceptions that I'm not thinking of right now.

690
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: And obviously there were women writing too, but they were

691
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: generally not held up.

692
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 3: I'll wait for reddit.

693
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think he never really understood women, and

694
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: he sometimes tried. That's how I feel. He was also

695
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: casually homophobic his entire life, and this was never really addressed.

696
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: People like to argue about this one. He absolutely used

697
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: anti gay slers a bunch, and he tended to look

698
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: down on homosexuality. He also and I haven't found the

699
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: source on this, I found someone talking about it. He

700
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: wrote how there was a bunch of homosexuality and all

701
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: boy boarding schools and how that was a positive thing overall.

702
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: How So, he wasn't like I hate the gaze. He

703
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 2: never wrote like I hate the gaze. He just like

704
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: was casually like, oh that nancy over there.

705
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: You know?

706
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: Did he actually use that term?

707
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? He used nancies and like fancy boys and stuff.

708
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: I think a bunch or like he's nancy boys and

709
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: pansies I think is what he used.

710
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: Kind of disappointed kind of feel like he as a

711
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 3: literary guy, he could have come up with something better.

712
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. Actually, one of his rules

713
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: of writing is don't use the same cliches very jargony. Yeah, no, totally.

714
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: He was also a huge admirer of Oscar Wilde, who

715
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 2: was famously gay in prison for being gay, and Oscar

716
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: Wilde was one of his first major political influences, and

717
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 2: he was very supportive when his friend, the anarchist historian

718
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 2: George Woodcock wrote a history of wild One. Author Anna

719
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 2: Funder connects misogyny and homophobia when she says that she

720
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: writes about how one of Orwell's wives is like main wife.

721
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: He has one wife that he married like two months

722
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 2: before he died, but Eileen was his main wife for

723
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: many years. She's generally erase from his history, and I

724
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: hold by the that was a conscious choice, but I

725
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: could be wrong. She claims. This author claims that Orwell

726
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: had no sexual interest in women and would have been

727
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 2: happier in a time when homosexuality was more I don't

728
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: buy this. I haven't seen all of our evidence, but

729
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: I don't buy it. I have not seen any I

730
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: would be the first to believe and want to believe

731
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: that he was gay, right, like all super into claiming

732
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 2: as many of our heroes as queer as possible. Right,

733
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: he spent a while fighting in Spain and the Revolution,

734
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: where there was like a ton of out gay officers

735
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: and soldiers, and he would have had every opportunity to

736
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: be in gay relationships, and this and that. I don't know,

737
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: so people like to argue all of these things. Then finally,

738
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: of the of his big blind spots, there's this early

739
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 2: anti semitism, And this one's the easiest. I can like

740
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: this one, I have like I can tell you the

741
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: story of it. His earliest writings were explicitly and grossly

742
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: anti semitic. He talked about Jews having brought on their

743
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: own treatment on themselves. His characters were anti Semitic, But

744
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 2: so was he right, and everyone kind of knew it.

745
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: Throughout the nineteen thirties, this is really present in his writing.

746
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: He has a ton of friends who are Jewish. This

747
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: doesn't fix it until one day it does. One of

748
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 2: his Jewish friends in about nineteen forty challenges him on

749
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: all of it, and Orwell changes his mind. He is

750
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 2: presented with evidence, he changes his mind, he's always attached

751
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: to common decency instead of ideology, right, and he believes

752
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: that it's good to change your mind. He wrote, anti

753
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: Semitism is simply not the doctrine of a grown up person.

754
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: People who go in for that sort of thing must

755
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 2: take the consequences, and he means social consequences. He's a

756
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 2: very big free speech guy, but he's a very big

757
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: shame people for being fucked up. Yeah, and he went

758
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: on to write an essay called Anti Semitism Britain, exploring

759
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: this problem at great length to a very wide audience.

760
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: But it's funny because I now run across essays that

761
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: I claim he was anti Semitica's whole life, even during

762
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: this period, and I was like, oh fuck, reading all

763
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: these and reading it was like one that definitely says this,

764
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: and one that kind of says it, and they're The

765
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: main claim is because at the end of his life

766
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: he was like, I hate anti Semitism. I'm still anti Zionist.

767
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 2: Zionism is nationalism and bad and colonialism is bad. And

768
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: because he said that in the nineteen forties, this is

769
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 2: why some Zionist people still find it it's anti Semitic.

770
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: He's man in some ways he's he's cutting edge, like

771
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: he is. Yeah, this is he's winning me back a

772
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 3: little bit. Now that's back.

773
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where I was. I was like, I don't

774
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: know if I'm ever going to do an Orwell episode

775
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: because I loved his books as a kid, right and

776
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: I knew about the fighting in Spain thing, But I

777
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: keep seeing right wing people posting about him. Yeah, and

778
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, if nothing else, he was a democratic socialist.

779
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: He was just kind of shitty to women, you know,

780
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: And so then I like, I was like, all, I'm

781
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: gonna do an episode about him, and then he he

782
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: kind of won me back while I was doing the episode.

783
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's winning me. Now you're taking me on a

784
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 3: journe on this one.

785
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: And he had his life was a journey. You know.

786
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: It's like if there's a like, there's a reason we

787
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: try as a society not to always hold people to

788
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: the single worst thing that they did when they were

789
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 2: eighteen years old, you know, and what they do about

790
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: it later is what is the most impactful. Obviously his

791
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 2: actions still had impact, and I'm not trying to deny that.

792
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 2: But so the other worst thing he did is he

793
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: went to Burma. Let's go back to that. Well, actually,

794
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 2: first he went on to a journey into the land

795
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: of advertisement. Well, actually, eventually it's gonna come up war

796
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 2: propagandas that's kind of the same, here's some ads. We're

797
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: back so young George still Eric. At this point, he

798
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: goes to Burma and he becomes a colonial cop. Burma

799
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: at this part was part of British India. And one

800
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 2: good thing that happened came out of this. When he

801
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: went to India, he had had a mustache that was

802
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: a style at the time. You might know it is

803
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: the toothbrush mustache. You more likely know it as the hitler.

804
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

805
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: Fortunately, chaplain, Yeah, he had a chaplain. Fortunately, the style

806
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 2: at the time for colonial officials over there was a

807
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 2: pencil mustache. So he switched to a pencil mustache and

808
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: then kept that the rest of his life and always

809
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 2: the like kind of the slum in it, like I

810
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: want to be with the locals.

811
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 4: Guy.

812
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: He gets sick hand tattoos in the local style on

813
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 2: his fingers. Nice and he realizes really quickly that a

814
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: lot of the Burmese people don't like him at all,

815
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: And soon he realizes that the Empire is fucking evil.

816
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: He got sick there while he was there, because he

817
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: did that a lot, and that was one of his

818
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: past times, was getting sick and.

819
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, getting sick.

820
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in nineteen twenty seven he goes back to England.

821
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: He goes back a little bit early on, like sick leave,

822
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: and he's like, man, fuck being a colonial cop. I

823
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 2: am fucking done. I am never doing that again. And

824
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: he never did it again. When he left for Burma,

825
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: he had no politics. He came back first and foremost

826
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: anti colonial. At this point he also became a socialist,

827
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: starting off as an anarchist. Soon he's gonna end up

828
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: a democratic socialist with close friends who are anarchists. He

829
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 2: wrote about it that he had developed quote an anarchistic

830
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: theory that all government is evil, that the punishment always

831
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: does more harm than the crime, and that people can

832
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 2: be trusted to behave decently if only we let them alone.

833
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 2: And this probably comes kind of almost word for word

834
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: from Oscar wild because Wilde's essay the Soul of Man

835
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: under Socialism is basically what Orwell just said. So he's

836
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: back from Burma and now he starts doing his like

837
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: slum in it. He's like all right, well I can't.

838
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 2: I shouldn't go explore exotic locales overseas. That was kind

839
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: of fucked up. I'm going to do it at home.

840
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: So he dresses up as a tramp. He starts wandering

841
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: around and he puts together one of his first books

842
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: that people read. It's called Down and Out in Paris

843
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: in London, and he gets sick of bunch doing that,

844
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 2: and he starts writing a bunch and then he kind

845
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: of like, if you pretend to be poor long enough,

846
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 2: you kind of end up poor.

847
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: Dressed for the job you want.

848
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, and somebody's like sick, he's staying in

849
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 2: shitty hospitals and stuff, and it's like fox his health up.

850
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: You know.

851
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: He's like committed to the bit committed. Yeah, until eventually

852
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: he's he realizes he's middle class and he moves back

853
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: to his parents' house.

854
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was gonna ask.

855
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask when that part of the story

856
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: arc happened. Yeah. Eventually he's like, all right, that's enough

857
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: of that.

858
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 3: Is there an oogling term for someone that does that,

859
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 3: that moves back in with their parents?

860
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so it's kind of funny. Is that the

861
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: word oogle used to mean a poser street kid, so

862
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 2: like originally in like the early aughts, and Google was

863
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,439
Speaker 2: or well, right, like someone who's a fake Oogle who's

864
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: going to move back with his parents. But those of

865
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 2: us middle class dropouts fake Googles like me, we tended

866
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,760
Speaker 2: to call the oogle meant more of the like fighty shitty,

867
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: like stabby guy right who's like drunk all the time

868
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: or whatever. So to some people the oogle thing is

869
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 2: to be the middle class kid, and to other people

870
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: the Google is like the more real anyway.

871
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 3: I'm so I feel I'm going to I can't wait

872
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 3: to use this knowledge. I don't know how or when,

873
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 3: but I am going to drop this at some point

874
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: in the near future.

875
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: I have never found a word that is more completely

876
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: suffused within a scene and completely opaque to people outside

877
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 2: the scene. Yeah, Like, I have never used this word

878
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: in like company that isn't punks, like especially street punks,

879
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: and had anyone know what I'm talking about. But this

880
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: is a word that is.

881
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 3: Like now and me. Now you can use it with me.

882
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 2: I'm cool exactly. Yeah, you can call me an Google

883
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 2: or when I'm acting like an oogle. Okay, let's get

884
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: the Jordan. But it's it's fine. So and then he

885
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: moves back with his parents and he does stuff that

886
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: totally matters, and I'm not as interested in this week's story.

887
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: He writes a bunch of books, including the ones he

888
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: later rejected entirely in which he hadn't written. He took

889
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 2: on the name George Orwell at this time, and it's

890
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: also kind of partly a way to leave his childhood

891
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 2: behind and make a clean break for who he wants

892
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: to become. In nineteen thirty five, he meets his wife

893
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 2: to be Eileen O'Shaughnessy, and before they get married, he

894
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: goes off slumming again up north and he writes The

895
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 2: Road to Wigan Peer, and he actually does really good

896
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: stuff with his slumming it. The Road to Wigan Peer

897
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 2: is this like, look at the conditions that the working

898
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 2: class and the north live in because people don't know it.

899
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 2: And it's basically a call for a socialism that isn't

900
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: caught up in like intellectual bullshit in jargon. He's like,

901
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: if we can't talk about socialism in a way that

902
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 2: matters to the miners, why are we doing it? This

903
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 2: gets him put under state surveillance, where he remains until

904
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 2: he dies.

905
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 3: Oh wow, it's real nineteen eighty I know.

906
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: But he's also part of the propaganda machine in the government.

907
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: It's he's woven in. It's interesting he gets married nineteen

908
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: thirty six. In nineteen thirty six, Franco staged a coup

909
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: in I wrote into this script France, which would be

910
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 2: a whole different story. He staged a coup in Spain,

911
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: and the Blairs are like, what, we gotta go fucking

912
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,959
Speaker 2: do something about that, don't we. And the short version

913
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 2: of the Spanish Civil War you can get the long

914
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: version from like half the episodes I've ever done, is

915
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: that Spain finally managed to get itself into being a republic,

916
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 2: but then Franco, a fascist, invaded his own country and tried,

917
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 2: after he tried to stage a coup, and then it

918
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: failed because republican troops and anarchist militias threw down to

919
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: stop it. Militias ran to the front to hold back fascism,

920
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: while meanwhile, social revolution spread across the country and in

921
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: Barcelona and Catalonia. More broadly, millions of people started living

922
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: in an anti state, socialist life. People thought the Western

923
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: powers like France, UK and the US would help them

924
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 2: out because after all, they are committed to the democracy

925
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: and the republic and blah blah blah. Right, Yeah, the

926
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 2: Western governments turned their back on Spain completely. They not

927
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: only did they not show up, they blockaded aid into

928
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: the country. Only Stalin showed up to help, but there

929
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: were serious strings attached. Communists as in loyal to the USSR.

930
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 2: Folks were a distinct minority like politically, they were a

931
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 2: tiny fraction of the left in Spain at the time,

932
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 2: but if you wanted Daddy Stalin's help, you gotta let

933
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: them be in charge. And that soon turned out very badly,

934
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 2: with the communists going to literal war against the Republic

935
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: and the anarchists, and it's messy and bad. But this

936
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: hasn't happened yet. When the Blairs go down, well, the

937
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: Orwell if she never changes her name to Orwell, Eileen

938
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 2: goes with him. Yeah. A few months later, the Republic

939
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: is in danger and the governments of the western countries

940
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: aren't helping. But people from those countries and from other

941
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: countries around the world. Mexico shows up really hard. I

942
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 2: can't remember all of the countries. An awful lot of

943
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: leftists from around the world are like, we're going to

944
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: go fight fascism. George and Eileen are among them. On

945
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 2: December twenty third, nineteen thirty six, George Orwell sets off

946
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: to Spain. At first, he's like, I'm going to go

947
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 2: be a journalist, but as soon as he gets there,

948
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: he sees the revolution and he's like, all right, sign

949
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: me up, let's go. He actually has a good quote

950
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 2: that I didn't include in here for some reason, where

951
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: he's like, look, I don't understand it all. There's like

952
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: anarchist banners everywhere and hammers and sickles and shit, but

953
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: everyone's like in charge of themselves and that's pretty cool

954
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 2: and I don't need to and some of this scares me,

955
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: but this seems like something worth defending. And that's my

956
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 2: paraphrase of him. Yeah, but I will give his direct

957
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: quote quote. When I joined the militia, I had promised

958
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: myself to kill one fascist. After all, if each of

959
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: us killed one, they would soon be extinct.

960
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: It's beautiful and simple.

961
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: I know, I know that's lovely. Anyway, we're not sure

962
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 2: if he killed anyone or not. Firefights and bomb fights

963
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 2: are like that. He absolutely shot at fascists, and he

964
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 2: also fought. He gotten like a bayonet fight with a

965
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 2: fascist who ran away. No, that's pretty that counts for something.

966
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, no, I give him credit more than

967
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: I have ever done. Yeah, and how all that went,

968
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: we'll talk about on Wednesday.

969
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 3: Oh, that'll wait until I don't know.

970
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: You totally have to wait till Wednesday. Five minutes breaks

971
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: a week on all go to the bathroom before we record.

972
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm a pick and be right back.

973
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, no, So, so how's orwell, how how are

974
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 2: you feeling about this man?

975
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 3: You kind of laid out the grand work perfectly, like

976
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 3: I understood there's gonna be some deeply problematic parts. It

977
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 3: was a little bit of a dip from me emotionally.

978
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 3: I'm on my way back up. I think he's I

979
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 3: think it's very interesting. I'm a little disappointed I didn't

980
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 3: work in a Dexy's Midnight Runners reference with Eileen oh Bo.

981
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 3: But maybe I'll get to it in the second episode.

982
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 3: And I'm really I'm loving it. This is great, Like,

983
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 3: this is an amazing interesting character, and he's so I mean,

984
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 3: I don't know if he's misunderstood just because I don't

985
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 3: know enough about him, but I you're what you said

986
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,760
Speaker 3: is exactly right. He is just so woven into pop

987
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 3: culture and references from everything from like stuff we watched

988
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 3: when I was growing up to like the Boys now

989
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 3: on TV. Everything is woven in this just Orwellian these

990
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 3: Orwellian ideas. So to learn more about him, I think

991
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: is really important. So, yeah, no, it's great.

992
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 2: I more and more as I was like reading all

993
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: this stuff, I was like, Oh, this man fundamentally changed

994
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: the world, and we don't know what the world would

995
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: be like without him. And there are some ways in which,

996
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 2: because of how grossly misused he has been, there's some

997
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 2: ways in which it got worse right in other ways,

998
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: And I think overall, I think in broad strokes, I

999
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 2: think he did maybe more to combat the spread of

1000
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 2: totalitarian ideology through his writing than anyone in the English language.

1001
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:23,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1002
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 2: Huge, Yeah, And and we'll talk more about that on Wednesday,

1003
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: But first we'll talk about your podcast and anything else

1004
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: you want to talk about.

1005
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 3: I have a podcast is called The House of Pod.

1006
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 3: It is a humor adjacent medical podcast. We will look

1007
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: at the intersections of public health and pop culture and

1008
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 3: social inequities and cover some pretty fun topics with great guests,

1009
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 3: a lot of people that you'll already know from listening

1010
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 3: to this podcast. And it's a ton of fun. And

1011
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 3: I know you might not think that it would be

1012
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: because you're like, I don't want to It sounds a

1013
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: little bit medically and nerdy and sciencey, and it's not

1014
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 3: that much. It's because we are kind of anti jargon.

1015
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: So you will like it. I think if you don't,

1016
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 3: you know, we'll send you a nicol.

1017
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: It took me like three times to finally figure out

1018
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: because House of Pod makes so much sense obviously as

1019
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: a play on House of God. Ah, it took me

1020
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 2: so long to figure that out.

1021
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you're not the target audience for that book.

1022
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean I'm glad. Did you read it?

1023
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 2: No?

1024
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 3: No?

1025
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 2: Wait wait wait does a book or House of God?

1026
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: No? I don't know how god. So the House of

1027
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 3: God is a book that was ranked one of the

1028
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 3: best satires of all time. It's a medical book that

1029
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 3: was one of the first books about like medicine that

1030
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 3: showed medicine in a realistic light. It came out like

1031
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 3: forty five years ago or something. I have the author

1032
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 3: on the show Actually it's a problematic book and some

1033
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 3: very serious ways in this depiction of minorities in particular

1034
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 3: and misogyny. But it was the first book to really

1035
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 3: kind of show the world of medicine in a realistic way,

1036
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 3: and it is like a satire and it's actually, you know,

1037
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 3: pretty brilliantly written overall by this guy who was a doctor,

1038
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 3: and it's that's kind of what we're trying to do

1039
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 3: with the show is kind of peel back the curtain

1040
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 3: on the world of medicine and show you like, this

1041
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 3: is kind of what it's really like. This is what

1042
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,919
Speaker 3: doctors are actually like when they're talking to them each other,

1043
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 3: and you know, they're not trying to put up a

1044
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 3: fake front. And I hope through the whole process that

1045
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 3: we kind of, you know, break down people's anxiety about

1046
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 3: medicine or make medicine more approachable to people.

1047
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: That's kind of the overall goal of it. So but yeah,

1048
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: it's based on a book called The House of God. Okay,

1049
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,479
Speaker 2: that makes so much sense. Yeah, I knew that House

1050
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: of God was sometimes a word that people use for

1051
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 2: like hospitals and stuff, but I don't thah totally. And

1052
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: so that was like Oh, I get it, and I

1053
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 2: felt so clever, But now I get it actually, and uh,

1054
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: totally glad I learned it on air or whatever. I

1055
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 2: guess my whole thing with my podcast is I make

1056
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: guests come on and talk about things they don't know.

1057
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 3: Oh, but I'm so good. Listen again, I have to

1058
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 3: apologize to your listeners. I'm so sorry you have. You're

1059
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 3: all listening right now and being like what These are

1060
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 3: the most basic questions. Why isn't he asking?

1061
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 2: No?

1062
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 3: And I'm sorry, I hear you, I hear you. I

1063
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:23,720
Speaker 3: know I understand listeners. I'm sorry.

1064
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 2: Sorry, some of those listeners have those questions. I love.

1065
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 2: One of the favorite tricks I've ever learned to get

1066
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 2: over imposter syndrome actually in some ways is when I'm

1067
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: in a crowd and someone's like, especially if I'm kind

1068
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: of in like if I am like at like a

1069
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 2: like a political thing, right. I have enough cred at

1070
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 2: this point that if I'm in a political space or whatever,

1071
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: like enough people kind of know who I am or whatever,

1072
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 2: because I've been doing this for twenty years. So if

1073
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 2: someone uses jargon, I sometimes I'm like, hey, what does

1074
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 2: that mean? Because no one thinks I don't know what

1075
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: it means, right, and so I'm like, I'm safe to

1076
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: ask ask the question, you know, but someone needs to

1077
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: someone needs to say like because like unless it's a

1078
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 2: closed space, like people need to be able to understand

1079
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: what's happening, you know, agreed, I agreed. But if you

1080
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,479
Speaker 2: want to hear what's happening in Spain of eighty years ago,

1081
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 2: then you got a way till Wednesday. Uh oh, I

1082
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 2: have a book. It's this God, it's like one of

1083
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: your last few days. You can kickstart it. What are

1084
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 2: you doing? Why haven't you kickstarted yet? Don't you want

1085
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 2: to sign? Copy The Sapling Cage, my young adult book.

1086
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,439
Speaker 2: I actually realized more than I when I'm going through

1087
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 2: this or what was actually a more important literary influence

1088
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: on me than I'd recognize because I was thinking about

1089
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 2: how a lot of like my actual the literary here

1090
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 2: is that I like read more recently and I care

1091
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 2: more about tend to write. I try to write plainly.

1092
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:53,439
Speaker 2: I try to write at a fairly like low reading level,

1093
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: because I think the lowest reading level that you can

1094
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 2: say the things that you need to say in as

1095
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 2: complicated and nuanced ways as you can or need to

1096
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: is the goal. I don't want things to be complicated

1097
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 2: for the sake of complicated. And actually, upon looking back,

1098
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, reading Orwell's stuff on writing was

1099
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: what I was doing when I first started writing, and

1100
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 2: I'm very excited to read the book, so clearly I'm

1101
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 2: writing the next nineteen eighty four is my book is

1102
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,919
Speaker 2: nothing like It's a fantasy book about a witch who

1103
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 2: saves the world.

1104
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:26,919
Speaker 3: That's yeah, I can't wait.

1105
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Well, let's see you all Wednesday.

1106
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1107
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1108
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,479
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1109
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1110
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 4: You get your podcasts.