Speaker 1: Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Tabletop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the Facebook
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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts. Narcissism. Everybody is using this word. Narcissism is
Speaker 1: at the core of every debutive relationship. The only thing
Speaker 1: you've done without my help is get sick. I've seen it.
Speaker 1: It's awful. Gas Lighting is like a main narcissistic trait.
Speaker 1: You are so confused. Don't act crazy, Da. It could
Speaker 1: be your parents, your adult child, your spouse. It could
Speaker 1: be a boss in a job you need to keep
Speaker 1: you were hurting them. Possible not possible death, our r
Speaker 1: T T family, You ask for it, and here it
Speaker 1: is backed by popular demand. Is one of our favorites.
Speaker 1: World's leading expert on narcissism and author of two books
Speaker 1: on the topic, Dr Romney. You bring the fire every time,
Speaker 1: and you really hit it on the head. And we
Speaker 1: have so many people and even in our personal lives,
Speaker 1: asking how the hell do we survive the narcissist in
Speaker 1: our lives? Right? Because this could be your mother, your father,
Speaker 1: your adult childs, your spouse, it could be a boss
Speaker 1: in a job you need to keep. It's a topic
Speaker 1: that is kind of trending, narcissism, and so I think
Speaker 1: it would be really cool if you could just remind
Speaker 1: us what the definition is. You're right, everybody is using
Speaker 1: this word right now. So let's start with the core
Speaker 1: of it and build out. People who are narcissistic are
Speaker 1: deeply insecure, and we don't see that part of it.
Speaker 1: Deeply insecure because they're so insecure and they don't want
Speaker 1: to be found out. They cover themselves and all of
Speaker 1: this grandiosity, entitlement, arrogance. But then there is this lack
Speaker 1: of empathy, in which, to me is the most lethal
Speaker 1: part of this. They don't care. These are folks who
Speaker 1: are very controlling. Sometimes they're downright paranoid. They think people
Speaker 1: are out to get them all the time. I'm talking
Speaker 1: to quite a few people. Narcissists tend to be very charming.
Speaker 1: What they portray with family and friends versus what's happening
Speaker 1: behind closed doors is so drastically different. They're building a
Speaker 1: perfect suit of armor because there's all this insecurity to
Speaker 1: be protected, So they work on their outsides so nobody
Speaker 1: will notice the inside and that charm, charisma, confidence are
Speaker 1: the front game for a person who's narcissistic, to the
Speaker 1: point where I mean someone charismatic, I'm terrified. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I got oh right, they're too nice. How do we
Speaker 1: interact with narcissists in our lives when we can't necessarily
Speaker 1: walk away from them? People are watching this saying, Okay,
Speaker 1: obviously I know what I should do. I should walk,
Speaker 1: But we don't have the luxury of just walking away
Speaker 1: from everyone, And so then people feel like, what do
Speaker 1: I just need to keep things the way they are? No,
Speaker 1: you don't. This is really a game of number one
Speaker 1: and above all else, radical acceptance. Radical acceptance is understanding
Speaker 1: this is not going to change. Personality styles do not change. Okay,
Speaker 1: So the only thing you can do is work on
Speaker 1: your approach to this and your expectations. Those expectations need
Speaker 1: to be realistic, even if it's just like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: going through the same cycle, but now I'm protecting myself
Speaker 1: emotionally because I know what's actually going on, recognizing what
Speaker 1: you're dealing with. So how does one do that? There's
Speaker 1: a technique I use. I call it the deep technique
Speaker 1: because you remember it. Deep stands for don't defend, don't engage,
Speaker 1: don't explain, and don't personalize this. Okay, so you think
Speaker 1: about how many times you go deeper in with some one.
Speaker 1: That's why I say deep, like like no, no, I
Speaker 1: never said that or didn't happen that way, almost detached completely.
Speaker 1: In fact, there's a name for that disengagement. It's called
Speaker 1: gray rocking beings boring. As a gray rock, you become
Speaker 1: almost inert, right, you're like completely uninteresting. You're like so
Speaker 1: they have nothing to feed off, So they have nothing
Speaker 1: to feed off. And now, initially, and this is one
Speaker 1: thing I want to warn everyone watching this, Initially, when
Speaker 1: you go gray rock on a narcissist, they get really mad.
Speaker 1: That makes you look like almost like you're being condescending, Like,
Speaker 1: but you can rock because you're not feeding them with
Speaker 1: something we call narcissistic supply, feeding their ego, whether it's
Speaker 1: with validation or with arguments. Because for narcissistic people, winning
Speaker 1: is everything. So if you don't give them the argument,
Speaker 1: they're going to lose interest in you and move to
Speaker 1: the person they can have the argument with. That's it.
Speaker 1: It's also about no longer share ring of yourself with them.
Speaker 1: You don't tell them the good things that happen in
Speaker 1: your life. You don't tell them about the bad things
Speaker 1: that happen in your life, because they're either going to
Speaker 1: make fun of the good things and they're going to
Speaker 1: criticize you even more for the bad things. They don't
Speaker 1: want people to watch this thing. I'm going to try
Speaker 1: these techniques and then maybe I'm going to get through
Speaker 1: the narcissists. That's not going to happen. You're doing this
Speaker 1: for you. This is to protect yourself. So a narcissist
Speaker 1: is never They're not going to change because they don't
Speaker 1: think there's anything wrong with how they're behaving. And there's
Speaker 1: not something that you can do to break that only
Speaker 1: on your side of the street, only on your side.
Speaker 1: Even if they have like little tiny breakthroughs, there will
Speaker 1: be something that happens that will trigger them to go
Speaker 1: right back into the mechanism that they know and they're
Speaker 1: just unaware. They're unaware, and that that unawareness is what
Speaker 1: throws people up. People say, are they like rubbing their
Speaker 1: hands together in the back room saying I'm going ready,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go gas like Jade they're not doing that.
Speaker 1: They're constantly protecting themselves. Everything they do is self protection.
Speaker 1: So we put together some scenarios with Dr Rominey and
Speaker 1: first the malignant narcissists. That sounds dangerous, right, This is
Speaker 1: very psychologically dangerous at times, can actually literally be physically dangerous.
Speaker 1: This is the form of narcissism that's actually closest to psychopathy.
Speaker 1: Someone who will lie, cheat, harm you to your face
Speaker 1: and feel no remorse. Pay attention to this scenario. It's
Speaker 1: a pattern you sometimes see in relationships that last a really,
Speaker 1: really long time. These are people who have been married
Speaker 1: for fifteen years and they have three kids. This scene
Speaker 1: you're going to see here is a really good glimpse
Speaker 1: at what malignant narcissism can look like. Hey, babe, what
Speaker 1: are you watching? I don't know something. You just ruined
Speaker 1: by walking in front. Sorry, don't forget. I have that
Speaker 1: procedure on Monday. Yeah, will you come with me? Do
Speaker 1: you really need someone to go with you that? I'm
Speaker 1: pretty scared. I don't know what to tell you. You
Speaker 1: already know I don't like hospitals. Isn't it enough I'm
Speaker 1: already paying for your health insurance? Of course, I wish
Speaker 1: my husband was jumping at the chance to take care
Speaker 1: of me, but you know he doesn't really like hospitals.
Speaker 1: Here we go with the guilt trip. It's you, you,
Speaker 1: you you. I mean, the only thing you've done without
Speaker 1: my help is get sick, and honestly, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: I can really do this anymore. Okay, I'm sorry, and
Speaker 1: pretend I didn't say anything. He does pay all the
Speaker 1: bills and the insurance, and I am sick a lot.
Speaker 1: I really shouldn't complain. M. Wow, when I tell you
Speaker 1: I have seen that one that just seems blatantly abusive,
Speaker 1: but it's it's awful, right, narcissistic people of you sick
Speaker 1: people as inconveniences. They're like, you just made my life harder.
Speaker 1: I don't want to go at the hospital and now
Speaker 1: they have to feel bad for the sick person. That's
Speaker 1: too much empathy for them. M that's too much empathy.
Speaker 1: And I have heard that story so many times I
Speaker 1: can't count it. It is utter devastation, and it threatened
Speaker 1: things like leaving, and threatening leaving is the ultimate power play, right.
Speaker 1: I'm just confused as to how they can look at
Speaker 1: themselves and think that's okay, because they're not thinking. There's
Speaker 1: no self reflective capacity. Whelow. They do not look in words.
Speaker 1: You know how you're constantly looking inward and saying did
Speaker 1: I do self analyzation? But that ability to look in
Speaker 1: words and say, how am I affecting another person through
Speaker 1: my words, through my actions? That's empathy. We're always talking
Speaker 1: about empathy of like do I get your feelings? Empathy
Speaker 1: is paying attention to how I talk, carry myself and
Speaker 1: how it might impact someone else. And you've got to
Speaker 1: remember too, you look at a story like this, why
Speaker 1: did she marry him? They don't act like that? And
Speaker 1: let me tell you that's lightweight. What we just saw
Speaker 1: right there, that is light weight. And you said, you've
Speaker 1: seen this what happened? Unfortunately, I had to distance myself
Speaker 1: from my my girlfriend and her husband because it was
Speaker 1: I it was just too brutal to watch. That's why
Speaker 1: it's so upsetting, because you know, I've seen it. It's
Speaker 1: awful and it can be so insidious. And I think
Speaker 1: narcissism is at the core of every domestically abusive relationship,
Speaker 1: emotionally abusive relationships, and physically abusive relationships. I have to
Speaker 1: agree with you that makes total sense. I never even
Speaker 1: I thought about because even that lack of empathy, like
Speaker 1: to see someone being so physically hurt and to keep
Speaker 1: killing them all. Then domestic violence folks say, instead of
Speaker 1: asking why she's not leaving, let's question his behavior because
Speaker 1: that's the problem. Right, So what do you do in
Speaker 1: the scenario like this? So remember we've talked about this
Speaker 1: idea about going deep, right, not defending, not engaging, not explaining,
Speaker 1: not personalizing. The not personalizing is really a important here
Speaker 1: because people say, well, this is personal, right, There's a
Speaker 1: difference between something being personal it's very personal, and not
Speaker 1: personalizing it. She's not responsible for his conduct. His behavior
Speaker 1: is bad. I just can't imagine staying in a relationship
Speaker 1: like that for so, but there's so many people, so
Speaker 1: many people, So show us how to handle this. Don't forget.
Speaker 1: I have that procedure on Monday. Do you really need
Speaker 1: someone to go with you that? My sister will take me, right,
Speaker 1: cool day, it's it, so your your sister will take me,
Speaker 1: and I'll be sending your ass divorce bill. So, but
Speaker 1: you see what happens. People are saying, what is she doing?
Speaker 1: So she's just rolling over? She started rolling over. She
Speaker 1: is trying to survive. When people stay in these relationships,
Speaker 1: I often think of it in two ways. One is
Speaker 1: practical money children, they're gonna she's gonna sher costs. She
Speaker 1: didn't want to, she doesn't want to do that. Then
Speaker 1: there's the other piece, where people in these relationships already
Speaker 1: blame themselves. I'm not working, he makes the money. Maybe
Speaker 1: I'm asking too much. Maybe I'm the one who's being difficult.
Speaker 1: That justifying is actually at the core of something we
Speaker 1: call the trauma bond. That when a person is in
Speaker 1: a relationship with a narcissist, it's it's this old pattern,
Speaker 1: usually from childhood, where they've learned to justify another person's
Speaker 1: bad behavior, and over time, justification equals love. WHOA, that's
Speaker 1: the pattern. You know what, Dr Romney, You really hit
Speaker 1: on something there. That's Narcissist relationships are tough. So next
Speaker 1: is a very common but very misunderstood type of narcissists,
Speaker 1: which is a covert. What you're about to see is
Speaker 1: a really typical sort of covert narcissistic interaction. This is
Speaker 1: a form of narcissism, and if I was to put
Speaker 1: it in a word, it's victimized. They're always the d them,
Speaker 1: They're always blaming everyone else. They do not take responsibility.
Speaker 1: Their entitlement is more quiet, and in this scene it's
Speaker 1: between two sisters in law. So how's where it gone? Oh?
Speaker 1: Not good? So unfair. Mary got the promotion. I mean,
Speaker 1: of course she did. You know, my boss knows her dad,
Speaker 1: so everything always goes her way. I thought Mary was
Speaker 1: the one who brought him that big account last year,
Speaker 1: and everyone thinks she's great. So what I made it
Speaker 1: on my own. I didn't have any connections. I work
Speaker 1: harder than everyone else, and I never get it my way.
Speaker 1: I just have a dumb boss. I mean, I'm so
Speaker 1: much smarter than her, but no one has given me
Speaker 1: a chance to prove that. Sarah, I think you're great.
Speaker 1: It's just that it seems like maybe Mary deserves it.
Speaker 1: You don't get it. You don't and you never support me,
Speaker 1: how consciously I'm not supportive. That really hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1: I feel like I spent nine of my time listening
Speaker 1: to her complaint and honestly, you're starting to sound like
Speaker 1: everyone else. I don't even think I'm going to go
Speaker 1: into work tomorrow. Then everyone can see how valuable. I
Speaker 1: am who else would be her friend? I don't want
Speaker 1: to be all alone. I guess she's not that bad.
Speaker 1: Oh that person who's in constant victims speak. No one
Speaker 1: ever gives me a chance, nothing ever goes my way.
Speaker 1: You know, some days people are going to see how
Speaker 1: great I am, and boy, you'll all be sorry. It's
Speaker 1: always very negative. They're constant malcontents. They're never happy right now.
Speaker 1: I know some mal contents yeah, and a lot of
Speaker 1: malcontents are covert narcissays. This restaurants too crowded, This restaurants
Speaker 1: too empty, This view is terrible. Nothing nothing ever makes
Speaker 1: them happy? Wow? So what are we supposed to do?
Speaker 1: And the number one thing you should do is really
Speaker 1: avoid the temptation to rescue them because a lot of
Speaker 1: people almost want to jump into shrink mode with them. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: you like you're really great, or oh let me see
Speaker 1: if I can fix this. You don't like this restaurant,
Speaker 1: We could will find another. See what I'm saying a
Speaker 1: lot of people fall into that rescuely place. That's what
Speaker 1: I was. I was about to be like that to me,
Speaker 1: But it's not fairly. Remember you feel like you have
Speaker 1: a responsibility, rescue the right. But here's the thing, you
Speaker 1: never can right because you're gonna keep trying it. There
Speaker 1: never stops. You rescue them this one time, and then
Speaker 1: it happens again. She's in a situation right now. So
Speaker 1: this might break you of the cycle because it's gonna
Speaker 1: get you nowhere. You see what cycle you've been in
Speaker 1: and how it's been frustrating, how it's taken up so
Speaker 1: much of your time when that person is just lil.
Speaker 1: When I was watching that, in my mind, I'm going
Speaker 1: just you know, be compassionate because you know she's going
Speaker 1: through something. Let's see what the sister in law was
Speaker 1: saying at the end. She's saying of the time, it's
Speaker 1: me listening to her stuff. So never ends. When you
Speaker 1: fix one mess, it's always the next mess because they
Speaker 1: always field life is unfair to them, only them, And
Speaker 1: then like they enjoyed being in that yeah, yea yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how they get validation. Get me because like you've
Speaker 1: been through so much, so that's validation you really you're
Speaker 1: a fighter. So let's take a look at a strategy
Speaker 1: for this. Sow's where it gone. Oh not good? So unfair?
Speaker 1: Mary got the promotion I mean, of course she did.
Speaker 1: You know, my boss knows her dad, so everything always
Speaker 1: goes her way. I made it at my own. I
Speaker 1: didn't have any connections. I work harder than everyone else.
Speaker 1: I never get in my way. I just haven't done boss.
Speaker 1: I'm so much smarter than her, but no one has
Speaker 1: ever given me the chance to prove it. I hear
Speaker 1: you by me disengaging. I feel so good that I
Speaker 1: don't have to fall down that rabid hole of a spiral,
Speaker 1: because that was gonna cost me several hours. She really did.
Speaker 1: She didn't even respond. That's it. And that's her sister
Speaker 1: in law. So maybe, oh, maybe she's tight with her
Speaker 1: brother or whatever. But I know people are saying, well,
Speaker 1: aren't you just enabling her. She's not a therapist. That's
Speaker 1: not her job to fix her. I say, when you
Speaker 1: have someone like this, don't go on vacation with this person.
Speaker 1: They're gonna be the most miserable week of your life.
Speaker 1: And I say, people said a timer and say, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, I gotta go. Can you change the subject?
Speaker 1: Like if she was there was like, girl, you had
Speaker 1: those stretches, You really can get tried that again either,
Speaker 1: all you see how they're all short term strategies, right,
Speaker 1: how many times you going to change the subject. Her
Speaker 1: sister in law is just going to keep in that
Speaker 1: negative spin. Yes, it seems like gas lighting is like
Speaker 1: a main narcissistic trait. So let's talk about what that
Speaker 1: is actually gas lighting. It's there's the other hot word
Speaker 1: of the Gaslighting is a form of manipulation where you
Speaker 1: really kind of get power over a person by doubting
Speaker 1: and invalidating their reality. You deny their reality. And when
Speaker 1: you deny someone's reality, ninety sign of people are like,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe they're right, maybe I didn't say that. We
Speaker 1: doubt ourselves. When it happens repeatedly, you feel like you're
Speaker 1: literally going crazy, but you no longer believe yourself. The
Speaker 1: only person you can really gaslight you is someone who
Speaker 1: either has some power or who you already trust a
Speaker 1: little already. That's why family members gas flight, That's why
Speaker 1: partners gaslight. So it's not just that gaslighting is not
Speaker 1: just lying. Gaslighting is lying and then twisting the knife
Speaker 1: further so you feel crazy. Could it also be in
Speaker 1: a form of like you're in an argument and they're like,
Speaker 1: I never said that, that's a gaslighting. Do I need
Speaker 1: to be recording? That's there? It is the first time
Speaker 1: someone says to me, I'm gonna start recording my conversation. Like,
Speaker 1: you're being gaslighted. It's that simple. Or when you feel
Speaker 1: they need to show someone like there's the text, You're
Speaker 1: being gaslighted because you feel like you need proof. When
Speaker 1: you feel like you need to bring an evidence base
Speaker 1: for your feelings, you're being gaslighted. Right. Well, we also
Speaker 1: have an example of gas lighting. The chicken is good? Right?
Speaker 1: Who is that? Oh? One of the guys from my
Speaker 1: fantasy lader. It looked like it said Melissa, and the
Speaker 1: message was too hearts. Wow you always go there? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I do always go there, especially given our track record. Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: it was Melissa Gregg's wife planning a surprise golf trip
Speaker 1: for him. Can we just get through one meal without
Speaker 1: your accusing me or something? Your way too sensitive? If
Speaker 1: I was getting heart text from another woman, do you
Speaker 1: think I would have my phone on the table for
Speaker 1: you to see it. You are so confused, don't act crazy. Look,
Speaker 1: I'm leaving out of town soon. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: have a good night us chilling, no drama. You don't
Speaker 1: want me going out of town not feeling you. Right,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid that Brian is going to cheat on me again,
Speaker 1: and I just need to get ahold of myself with
Speaker 1: all the wild accusations. You know, baby, I'm sorry, You're right, Okay?
Speaker 1: Do you see what I'm saying. She's almost like trying
Speaker 1: to win him back over again. He keeps the power. Wow.
Speaker 1: So a big way we get people gaslight each other
Speaker 1: as they say things like that never happened. You always
Speaker 1: do that. There's no nevers and always is in relationships. Right,
Speaker 1: that's a gaslight. I tell people, I need you to
Speaker 1: write down all this icky stuff that's happening in the
Speaker 1: relationship every time that they've doubted your reality, so you
Speaker 1: can see it's a pattern. There's no possibility of a
Speaker 1: long term, healthy relationship with somebody who's a chronic gas lighter.
Speaker 1: It's just not possible, all right. So as we were
Speaker 1: putting together this table, Alex, a thirty six year old,
Speaker 1: reached out and said he was worried he was a narcissist.
Speaker 1: So Dr Romney sat down with him for a one
Speaker 1: on one session. This is very rare for this to happen.
Speaker 1: A narcissist asking for help. Yeah, because they don't typically
Speaker 1: recognize that. They don't, but you know when they do
Speaker 1: start recognizing it, gamm me, when everything starts falling apart
Speaker 1: in their life. I'm here today because my dad is
Speaker 1: an artist. I've been suspected I might be one too,
Speaker 1: And having heard some people I loved in my life recently,
Speaker 1: I'm being really scared that I will only get worse
Speaker 1: as life goes on. The way I would describe my
Speaker 1: life now is depressing, dark, confusing, lonely. I've sort of
Speaker 1: had a generally lucky life, I would say, in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, school being easy for me and getting straight
Speaker 1: a's and all of that. You know, valedictorian, and I
Speaker 1: had a good job and you know, making decent money
Speaker 1: and and so things are just smooth. But always told me,
Speaker 1: don't feel like you're inadequate. It sounds like you never
Speaker 1: did feel inadequate. Never when you also have the best
Speaker 1: grades of being hired out of college for to a
Speaker 1: six figure salary. Sort of combination of that becomes off.
Speaker 1: I am really good, right, I'm special? Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: I am I know better than others in some way. Okay, so,
Speaker 1: according to my dad. Of course, I own him for
Speaker 1: every little thing in my achievement. Okay, everything that's good,
Speaker 1: we all to him. Everything as bad as com is
Speaker 1: from somewhere else. Okay. My dad and I've worked together,
Speaker 1: we argue a lot. The arguments became so unhealthy right
Speaker 1: over the little things, and I felt none of my
Speaker 1: ideas were meaningful to my dad. I said that I
Speaker 1: just don't think we worked together well. He dis owned
Speaker 1: me as a son. He disowned you. I clearly remember
Speaker 1: sitting on a couch and he said, you're you're no
Speaker 1: longer my son. Oh. I didn't know anything about narcisism
Speaker 1: at the time, but what I understood is that my
Speaker 1: dad can be extremely cruel on a dime. You pushed
Speaker 1: back on what your father wanted, you said first time ever,
Speaker 1: and he abandoned you. He rejected you. I think he
Speaker 1: wanted me to feel very guilty. He wanted to control
Speaker 1: you again. That's when I sort of sort of seeing
Speaker 1: some signs of how do I say, like the the
Speaker 1: the after effects of growing up in an environment like I.
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to tolerate bureaucracy. It's hard for
Speaker 1: me to tolerate incompetence. I get hired to a corporation
Speaker 1: that has a big structure, working for this fortune company,
Speaker 1: I feel like a number. And to me it's like,
Speaker 1: this is stupid, this is wrong, and it's really I'm
Speaker 1: very impatient. Yes, we're all. Everyone you encounter every day
Speaker 1: of your life was shaped by their parents. You so
Speaker 1: far laid out entitlement. I'm special, arrogance, I'm better than
Speaker 1: this and contempt. This is stupid, Like, there's no I
Speaker 1: don't see the point in this, right, So you're stacking
Speaker 1: up the lugs, it's right, yes, So I think at
Speaker 1: some point I got five from five jobs in a row.
Speaker 1: Why would you get fired? Uh, insubordination, want into things
Speaker 1: my way? Only um, one time I try to get
Speaker 1: up my boss fired. All those jobs you were at
Speaker 1: where you were insubordinating to people are mistreating them, you
Speaker 1: were hurting them. They went home, some of them cried,
Speaker 1: some of them couldn't sleep, some of them couldn't function,
Speaker 1: couldn't pay attention to are kids because they were thinking
Speaker 1: about how you behave no possible I would say death.
Speaker 1: And I never had a single remorse about okay, and
Speaker 1: that's okay. So I had no remorse about the fact
Speaker 1: that I was ruining people's days with my conduct, and honestly,
Speaker 1: no empathy for how your conduct affected those people in
Speaker 1: those jobs. I'm sorry, some emotion about Yeah, he cares
Speaker 1: about a little bit. Well, it seems like he cares
Speaker 1: about his his behavior, or maybe he's being perceived about
Speaker 1: Was he worrying about those people about having to hear
Speaker 1: about how you were perceiving his actions? Is it some
Speaker 1: of that insecurity coming out though, because even the way
Speaker 1: that you're describing it, it seems more of an anger
Speaker 1: and less of a sadness. When I looked at his eyes,
Speaker 1: he looked like he was about to cry. Yes, yes
Speaker 1: he was. I was there. He was absolutely. Alex's life
Speaker 1: continued to unravel. And so here's more, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean the person of love my life, and you know,
Speaker 1: everything's going great, and then I think three and a
Speaker 1: half years down the road, you know, she started having
Speaker 1: a conversation with me. She feels abandoned, she feels like
Speaker 1: I don't pay attention to her. We were considering marrying.
Speaker 1: We lived together for a long time, we got a
Speaker 1: dog together, and she was very caringus. She's very empathetic.
Speaker 1: You said she showed you a lot of empathy. Did
Speaker 1: you show her empathy? M oh, I showed her love
Speaker 1: at the times when I wasn't there, But the amount
Speaker 1: of times I was present, it was not a lot. Right,
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you showed her love and it
Speaker 1: was convenient for you, Damn I would yes, So, yes,
Speaker 1: I think. I think that's the the ugly truth of it.
Speaker 1: So in essence, you were the one who got to
Speaker 1: eat all the time, and she was starving to death
Speaker 1: whom there was embarrasatific moment where we went to bed
Speaker 1: and she was crying next to me, and she cried
Speaker 1: herself to sleep, and I was next to her, feeling horrible,
Speaker 1: absolutely terrified. I could feel the pain, but I had
Speaker 1: no clue one to do about it. Aren't you terrified
Speaker 1: that this most beautiful thing in your world you didn't
Speaker 1: know how to take care of it? I'm absolutely terrified
Speaker 1: for two reasons, One, who am I going to hurt next?
Speaker 1: And to how am I going to hurt myself next?
Speaker 1: Through that? Will I even survive that? Did you not
Speaker 1: almost survive? This? One? Correct a little in the high
Speaker 1: rise and I was at a point I was on
Speaker 1: a balcony and I was thinking of I'm going to jump.
Speaker 1: Do you want to reconcile with her? Oh my god? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Do you have contact with her? Um? She changed her number?
Speaker 1: An email for someone to change their number and email
Speaker 1: after breakup is not a good breakup. You may have
Speaker 1: hit what I call that proverbial narcissistic rock bottom where
Speaker 1: nothing ended up working out. And I have to tell you,
Speaker 1: this is a very perilous space. And you've already walked
Speaker 1: one of those paths. You almost thought that this was
Speaker 1: over for you. Yea. In listening to you talk what
Speaker 1: I've I've sort of observed there is certainly it's a
Speaker 1: pull to seek out validation, to be recognized for what
Speaker 1: you've done. You want that. I've got to say, if
Speaker 1: I worked with you, the irony is I'm blame. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't trust this guy. I don't like
Speaker 1: this guy. But the overall feeling I was having for
Speaker 1: you is pity. I feel sad for you. I feel
Speaker 1: sorry for you, and that to me is dangerous, And
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. Let's say I'm a woman who
Speaker 1: meets you, I might say, like, Okay, there's something really
Speaker 1: uncomfortable here. This person's quite egocentric there, very arrogant. But
Speaker 1: I feel for him, and they're gonna want to rescue you.
Speaker 1: And that Alex is the ultimate manipulation. Wow, I was
Speaker 1: having a day. Yeah, it's just so hard to because
Speaker 1: I see the pain in his eyes, like I see
Speaker 1: that he's actually struggling. But he's a rare one because
Speaker 1: at least this is this is a narcissist at a
Speaker 1: rock bottom because he has to me a lot more
Speaker 1: self awareness than what I've seen. That's right, and probably
Speaker 1: because he lived it. He lived he went through it
Speaker 1: with his father. Yes, but usually many many people who
Speaker 1: are narcissistic had narcissistic parents. That's not unusual. That's very interesting.
Speaker 1: You can see that he's just disconnected in a way
Speaker 1: that he can't understand how to connect. And I kept
Speaker 1: going and going until it blew up for him. Do
Speaker 1: you have any other questions for me as we come
Speaker 1: to the end of this. Do you feel there's hope?
Speaker 1: You know, I actually feel that there's I'm going to
Speaker 1: say there's conservative hope. And here's what I mean by that.
Speaker 1: I am not a big believer people change much from
Speaker 1: these patterns. I'm going to be frank with you. It's
Speaker 1: it's like literally climbing up a graceful It really really is.
Speaker 1: You have to every time you speak, every time you're
Speaker 1: with another person, you have to be mindful. You have
Speaker 1: to be aware. You have to be empathic, compassionate, respectful, reciprocal,
Speaker 1: pay attention to how you're affecting them, genuinely care about
Speaker 1: what they're going through. There can be no more of
Speaker 1: those sloppy days. There can't be the days where you
Speaker 1: are literally not paying attention to a partner who's crying
Speaker 1: next to you in bed. Do you really think you
Speaker 1: can do that? I don't think I can. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've worked with people who have been where you are,
Speaker 1: and I have to tell you this, It's always been
Speaker 1: three steps up and two steps back. Three steps up,
Speaker 1: two steps back. They make progress, but it's slow and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of frustration, and people as smart as
Speaker 1: you who get away with it don't do frustration well.
Speaker 1: And what it means, though, Alex, it means that when
Speaker 1: the big, fat, grandiose opportunity is put in front of you,
Speaker 1: and the beautiful woman who's empathic is there, and you've
Speaker 1: got these two things on either side of the field.
Speaker 1: Only you know what the healthy man is going to choose,
Speaker 1: and I can't predict that. I do know now the
Speaker 1: question as well, I choose it? Will you choose it?
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting because for a minute there, for a
Speaker 1: minute there, I saw him slipped back into his old path.
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm saying is that under the stresses,
Speaker 1: the conditions, the data day, probably at least once a day,
Speaker 1: he's going to slip back. And then it comes down
Speaker 1: to how much can you get it right the other times?
Speaker 1: To remember, the thing with narcissism is that they're not
Speaker 1: bad all the time. Okay, they're good enough at the
Speaker 1: time to keep you hooked in right. And that's why
Speaker 1: it's so hard for folks. I just keep going back
Speaker 1: to the crying next to him in the bed, because
Speaker 1: like for me, that just seems like wow, like if
Speaker 1: you couldn't even turn over and be like hey, even
Speaker 1: if it's like what are you crying about? Just just
Speaker 1: a acknowledgement like all the time, what he needs to
Speaker 1: do now is the equivalent of changing a habit. And
Speaker 1: we know how hard it is to change habits. The
Speaker 1: only example I can give here somebody trying to lose weight. Okay,
Speaker 1: every day, every meal, even when they're stressed. They can't
Speaker 1: turn back to sugar. You have to think every time
Speaker 1: you put something in your mouth. He's got to think
Speaker 1: every time something come out of his mouth. Basically, he
Speaker 1: has a really, really tough journey ahead of him. But
Speaker 1: I do applaud him for being vulnerable, you know, I
Speaker 1: really really do. We got to give him kudos and
Speaker 1: time sending him all the good vibes and and and
Speaker 1: hopes that he will decide to take that journey. I hope. So.
Speaker 1: As always, Dr Romney, it's so nice to have you here.
Speaker 1: It's always so freaking enlightening. I got you know, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's studying every time you come in, and
Speaker 1: it's like, I appreciate the questions you asked to. So
Speaker 1: many people are struggling and they don't have access to
Speaker 1: a therapist. Yeah, that's how straightforward you are. And you know,
Speaker 1: even watching you in the conversation with him, it was
Speaker 1: just like wow, like she really knows what the hell
Speaker 1: she's talking about. I appreciate my goodness for our our
Speaker 1: t T fan out there. I hope this was helpful.
Speaker 1: For you. It was helpful for us. If you have
Speaker 1: more questions, send them in, you know. And I hope
Speaker 1: all of you talk to each other and all the
Speaker 1: Red Table family circles that we have on Facebook, and
Speaker 1: we are sending you all just love and blessings. Are
Speaker 1: we ever going to bring band Dato Banget is too wild?
Speaker 1: He's a I don't think it's not going to just
Speaker 1: sit in there anymore. Yeah, he's a little too chaotic
Speaker 1: for the brand. He's only nine months. Yeah, that I've tried.
Speaker 1: I tried to help you to join the Red Table
Speaker 1: Talk family and become a part of the conversation. Follow
Speaker 1: us at Facebook dot com slash red table Talk. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast,
Speaker 1: produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.