1 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: Back in the first episode of our series, I told 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: you a story about my mom and her fight for 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: pay equality. She was a surgeon who sued her employers, 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: the State University of New York and the hospital where 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: she worked, for pay discrimination. After almost ten years, she 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: won a settlement, but her story didn't end there. After 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: the lawsuit ended. As a condition of the settlement, my 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: mom had to stop teaching at the university. She still 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: kept up a busy career as a practicing doctor, but 10 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: she also dedicated a lot of her time to telling 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: other women about her experiences so that they wouldn't have 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: to go through what she did. My experience has taught 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: me that legal solutions are not solutions at all. What 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: I lost and what I won were not equal, not fungible, 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: not interchangeable. I thought I was going to make and 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: change their ways, and I'm sorry to say that didn't occur. 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: She was talking to a seminar of other women physicians 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: who came to learn about gender equity in medicine. Even 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: though getting a settlement is a win, she was telling 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: them not to do what she did. Legal action is 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: the court of last resort. If you litigate, be prepared 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: to leave You may recover money, it will never be 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: enough to cover your legal fees. You may keep your 24 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: job if you really want it. You may get some 25 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: workplace change that's not likely, and you can sometimes recover 26 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: emotional damages, but to do that you have to be 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: seen by a psychiatrist who says that you've been so 28 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: damaged by this that probably they're going to say you're 29 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: too damaged to continue as a doctor. Inn she started 30 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: a consulting firm to help other women in medicine. She 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: explains her mission in this YouTube video, which warning has 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: some cheesy clip art noises in the background. If you 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: want to be a woman doctor, know that you're going 34 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: to face unique challenges male colleagues will not face. You 35 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: may not get recognized for your worth. I don't think 36 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: that's fair. I've been where you are, and I've learned 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,679 Speaker 1: a few things I really didn't want to know. It's 38 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: my mission to make sure that you don't have these 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: same struggles and you don't have to go it alone. 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: She wanted to advocate for other women, but more than that, 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: she wanted to help other women advocate for themselves. She thought, 42 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: if she could just teach people to be confident, and 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: strong at work, they could avoid what she had to 44 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: go through. Despite everything she experienced at work, my mom 45 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: really believed there were things women could do to change 46 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: their careers and their lives. There are solutions. You, a 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: woman physician, can learn to use your gifts as a 48 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: woman to have the confidence, the knowledge and the skills 49 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: to love you work, to live your life fully and 50 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: be the doctor you want to be and be the 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: doctor your patients deserve. And you can do this by 52 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: owning your medical career, being comfortable in the medical workplace, 53 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: and being able to when you look at the world, 54 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: you know what the population like, Where is our place like? 55 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: Where is our value? Will and deserve people who people work? 56 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: And Mason one meaning salary for Mandy is greater than 57 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: women in the six percent of major occupations women. What 58 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: do I want? We want to end gender inequality and 59 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: to do this we need everyone involved. When women are 60 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: financially stronger, it's good for their families, it's put money 61 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: into the economy, in the markets, it's good for everybody. 62 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: If I was a woman, I'm not sure I would 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: want to write on my show anyway. Yeah, we do 64 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 1: want to write out of them. We cannot do succeed 65 00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: when half of us a head bay. Welcome back to 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: the Paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield. For the last five weeks, 67 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: we've deconstructed a big, expensive, global problem, the pay gap. 68 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: We've interviewed people like Christina chen Austar, who has been 69 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: fighting a pay discrimination case for thirteen years and counting. 70 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: We looked at Iceland, which has done more than just 71 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: about any country to fix its pay gap, but still 72 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: hasn't been able to and we investigated how all of 73 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: this is pretty much banked into the way we think 74 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: about women and men and work. If you're a little 75 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: depressed after all of this, well so are we. So far, 76 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: the pay gap has proved pretty impossible to solve, but 77 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: most of us aren't just going to sit here and 78 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: accept that will be paid less than men for our 79 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: entire careers. This desire to do something on a personal level. 80 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: It's partly why books like lean In by Cheryl Sandberg 81 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: are so popular. Back into uny thirteen when the book 82 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: came out, her advice that women should just lean into 83 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: their careers and advocate for themselves if they want to succeed, 84 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: it made sense to a lot of women. She was 85 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: speaking the truth, and she got people fired up. The 86 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: very blunt truth is that men still round the world. 87 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: But what about the women's revolution? I think we're stalled. 88 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: I think we're stalled, and I think we need to 89 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: acknowledge that we're stalled so that we can change it. 90 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: Are you trying to reignite the revolution? I think so. 91 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: But in the five years since Lenin came out, the 92 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: gender pay gap hasn't really budged. Women are still less 93 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: likely to get promoted than men and more likely to 94 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: be seen as aggressive when they try to ask for raises. 95 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: So does anything work? Is there any way for an 96 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: individual to ensure she gets the money she deserves? For 97 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: most of my life, I kept all of my financial 98 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: foibles to myself. Not having money was my secret. Gabby 99 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: Done started her podcast Bad with Money three years ago 100 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: as a way to confront her personal finance struggles head on. 101 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: She says the show is about finances and feelings and 102 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: has interviewed dozens of people, including financial experts, her family, 103 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: and even a financial therapist. Well, it's perfectly acceptable for 104 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: people in their twenties to cry over relationship problems or 105 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: friendships dissolving. There's an added shame to discussing finances. I 106 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: spoke with her about what she's learned and how we 107 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: can take action in our own lives even when we 108 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: know the pay gap is bigger than us. Hi, Gabby, 109 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you 110 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:51,239 Speaker 1: for having me. So why did you start bad with money? 111 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: It started out being about like finances and feelings essentially, 112 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: which is what Season one was basically talking to people 113 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: about the taboo of talking about money. Why is it 114 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: a thing we don't want to talk about? Why is 115 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: it so isolating? What does everyone know that we don't know? Essentially, 116 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: and just sort of like spilled my own guts about 117 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: my family and um inability to figure out retirement or 118 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: savings or or any medical bill or anything. So our 119 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: show is also about money, but in a different sense. 120 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: Was there a time in your life when you realize 121 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: that the gender pay gap or other pay gaps were 122 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: affecting you? Yeah, definitely. I Mean there was a media 123 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: company that I worked for where a guy had the 124 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: same job as me, but he was getting paid dollars 125 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: more a year simply because he had asked Basically, like, 126 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: there was a day where we all were drinking or something, 127 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: and we shared our salaries and this one guy, and 128 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: I do not think he was doing a better or 129 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: more efficient job than me or or another woman that 130 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: I worked with. And um, he was like, well, I 131 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: had worked on a TV show prior to working here, 132 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: and so I knew the type of salary that you 133 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,559 Speaker 1: should ask for in a mediate setting. So I asked 134 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: for that. They made the match my prior salary, and 135 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: I was like, you can do that, Like I had 136 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: no idea. That was like really alarming, But I think 137 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: that had to do more with the blind confidence of asking. 138 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: Like a lot of marginalized people, so I'm also queer 139 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of marginalized people. It's like a similar 140 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: thing where you you're sort of so happy to be 141 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: there and so happy to be like even in the 142 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: interview that like, in my mind, I would just think 143 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: they're gonna pull this opportunity away as soon as they can, 144 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: Whereas like I think a lot of guys go in 145 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, of course I should be here obviously. Um. 146 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: And there's also this other thing that I talked about 147 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: a lot, which is the uncompensated emotional labor of being 148 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: a minority at a job, Like hey are you doing 149 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: your job, but are you also doing the job of 150 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: like checking other people's work to make sure it isn't 151 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: homophobic or racist, and also like doing like outreach or 152 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: activities or pasting you know, nights for for other groups 153 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: and like advocacy or whatever, and all that stuff is uncompensated. 154 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: As women, we're often getting advice about how to be 155 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: better at work. We should lean in or advocate for 156 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: ourselves more. As someone with a show in this genre, 157 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: I'm wondering what you think about advice like that that 158 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: prescribes all these ways for women to act at work. Well, 159 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: it is. It's a double edged story because you're essentially 160 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: then saying be like the boys so that you can 161 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: treat other people poorly. Is what I've always kind of 162 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: taken from that, Like instead of being like, Okay, let's 163 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: all figure this out and maybe dismantle this, and like 164 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I struggle with that on the show a lot. It's 165 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: like I get a lot of feedback from people that 166 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: are like super happy that it's kind of a show 167 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: about dismantling stuff, but then also people who are like, yeah, 168 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: but we gotta work within the system, and so I 169 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: try to talk to both sides. I try to talk 170 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: to people that I feel both ways about it, because 171 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: I don't really still don't know exactly how I feel 172 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: about it. There's part of me that's like, yeah, I 173 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: get in there, be just like the boys and do 174 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: the thing and blah blah blah. But then it's like, well, 175 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: why are we valuing this type of behavior and this 176 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: type of cut throughout situation where you have to behave 177 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: a certain way in order to succeed? Why are why 178 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: are we mirroring this thing that isn't good and it 179 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: and it is also only a certain type of woman 180 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: who even can do that. If you're like, hey, ladies, 181 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: go in and be brassy and take charge, and then 182 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, that's cool, but like can a black 183 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: lady do that? Is like a disabled woman going to 184 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: be taken seriously doing that. Um, it's it's advice that 185 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: might work for some people, but it also leaves a 186 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: lot of people in the dust. Yeah, I want to 187 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: get into that more, like how do you tell women 188 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: to help themselves when, like you said, you know that 189 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: so much of this as kind of structural. Yeah, it's tough. 190 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: A big part of the show is eliminating the shame 191 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: in the isolation. So I took a lot of this 192 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: stuff to be personal. Right, I'm bad. This is a 193 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: rejection of me. I'm bad with money because I'm worthless. 194 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a stupid person and I have a deficiency 195 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: and I'm maybe even like more only inferior. Right, So 196 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: once you eliminate that aspect of it, then you can 197 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: kind of start to go from there, because you just 198 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: need to be aware you can do things to help 199 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: yourself obviously, like I still have coupons, I still work 200 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: with a budgeting app. Like I'm not like, you know, 201 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: throwing bricks through Bank of America windows. Um, I'm still 202 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: trying to like do these little things. But you have 203 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: to be aware that it's stressful enough without the already 204 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: without adding on the whole thing of like I'm this 205 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: is this is in no part structural, and this is 206 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: all an individual failing. I want to talk a little 207 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: bit about your career outside of the podcast, because that's 208 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: far from the only thing that you do. Um, you know, 209 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: you're in the entertainment industry. And we did an episode 210 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago where we talked to Monique 211 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: about her negotiation with Netflix, and that she said she 212 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: got offered five thousand dollars and that was much lower 213 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: than the rates other comedians were getting, and she didn't 214 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: end up taking the deal. And she told us how 215 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: the Negotia Asian went, and it was interesting because she 216 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: was like, it's really hard to make the case for 217 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: your value in these situations and to to say like 218 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: this is what I'm worth. Has anything like that ever 219 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: happened to you? Or like, how do you know that 220 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: you're negotiating a fair rate in a situation like that. 221 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: I try to think long term about things. If I'm 222 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: working on something that is for a lower pay, in 223 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: my mind, I go okay, but then I can what 224 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: can I turn that into? Can I turn that into 225 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: a TV show? Can I expand it into a film? 226 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: But then other projects, I'm like, okay, it needs to 227 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: be this amount of money. I I you know, I 228 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: think it's very interesting when a woman like Monique actually 229 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: says like no, there's a power and no. Right, So 230 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: now she says no, and hopefully that leads them to 231 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: rethink the amount that they offered the next black woman. 232 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: I hope that's what happens. That's very idealistic, but maybe. 233 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: So your show started out as more of a personal journey, 234 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: but it's changed since then. What would you say the 235 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: mission of the show is now. I think the point 236 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: of the show is two teach people something, to broaden 237 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: this out from, because it's such an isolating topic and 238 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: you think that every problem that you have is is 239 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: your own. This is like a weird example, but my 240 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: dad's an alcoholic, and I thought everything that I was 241 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: in my personality and all the effects from it were 242 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: just my problem, Like, oh man, this is what I'm like. 243 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: I got messed up in this very particular way. Um. 244 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: And then I went to alan On and everyone there 245 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: had the same the words had been coming out of 246 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: my mouth. They had the same exact problems, and I 247 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I'm not even special. Um. 248 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: And so part of what I want is to teach 249 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: people with the show, but I also want people to go, oh, like, 250 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: I'm hiding this thing, and I'm hiding you know the 251 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: ways that this and this and this are affecting me. 252 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: And I didn't even realize that there was like this 253 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: huge umbrella where all of us are are being affected 254 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: by this. Yeah, and I think that's something that we're 255 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: trying to get at with this show too, where it's 256 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: like that it can feel very personal to you something 257 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: that happened in your career or at work or to 258 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: someone you know, and actually it's it's something that's happening 259 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: to lots of women and we just don't talk about it. Yeah, 260 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: so hopefully talking about it on this episode will solve 261 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: the whole problem. God, I hope, so really down to 262 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: solve things. So a lot of this is very depressing. 263 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: Um in like a lot of our episodes feel depressing. 264 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: How do you not get depressed doing this show and 265 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: talking about this all the time. I don't know. I 266 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: guess because I meet so many people on the podcast 267 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: who are doing all these things I've never heard of. 268 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: I'm constantly uplifted by, like the individual people that I 269 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: talked to you on Bad with Money. Like, obviously the 270 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: topics are depressing, and like the general outlook and like 271 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: the world in the government and everything is depressing. But 272 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: then like there will be people that come on that 273 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: are just like even like journe List, that are doing 274 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: amazing work and like deep dives into these things that 275 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: then you know, you go, oh, well, nobody reads long 276 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: reads anymore. But their their work is amazing, and it's 277 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: stuff that you don't necessarily hear about um. But the 278 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: individual people that I talked to have just been you know, 279 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: there's a guy running for president that we had on 280 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: the show that is committed to universal basic income and 281 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: and I don't know that he'll even get on a ticket. 282 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: But there's like UM, stuff that is small and and uplifting, 283 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: and that comes from like the individuals that I talked to. 284 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: Gabby is still not entirely sure what works and what doesn't, 285 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: but hearing from other people and sharing information is helping 286 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: her figure it out. And she's not alone. Women's empowerment 287 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: seminars and workshops and conferences have become wildly popular. Women 288 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: want to come together to talk and learn about how 289 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: to solve their own individual pay gaps. We should be 290 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: cynical about anything that promises a magic bullet solution to sexism, 291 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: and most of these workshops probably aren't worth your money. Still, 292 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: there can be real value in meeting other people who 293 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: are having the same problems as you are. Jordan Holman 294 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: flew out to Seattle in March to attend the Get Money, 295 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: Get Paid conference hosted by the group Ladies Get Paid 296 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: to see if she could get empowered? So what do 297 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: you do when you're just one person trying to fight 298 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: the gender pay gap? When you're Claire Washerman, you hold 299 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: a conference. So a lot of us feel very overwhelmed 300 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: because we think, well, what can I possibly do? So 301 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: that's a big goal of the conference is getting people 302 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: to walk out with you know, the bravery to do 303 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: something and also what actually am I doing at work 304 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: on Monday? Ladies Get Paid is dedicated to, as his 305 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: website puts it, helping women embrace their ambition and take 306 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: control of their careers. Conferences like Get Money, Get Paid 307 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: are part of a lucrative industry claiming to teach women 308 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: how to be strong, confident professionals. These conferences traffic and 309 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: good feelings in women's empowerment, but usually come at a 310 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: high cost. Get Money, Get Paid was no exception. Tickets 311 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: cost two hundred and seventy nine dollars originally, but organizers 312 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: quickly figured out that was more than women were willing 313 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: to pay. They marked them down, but only if you 314 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: brought a friend. I arrived at the conference around nine am. 315 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: The morning started with the usual depressing statistics, so I 316 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: think one of the more statistics that I read that 317 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: relaying st kick my button. Starting this from the fact 318 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: that black women in this country it makes forty four 319 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year in revenue, but less getting DC 320 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: funding at an average, Ladies Get Paid puts a distinctly 321 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: millennial spin on its events. The vibe in Seattle was 322 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: part soul cycle, part Susie Orman, supposedly affirmative channing helps 323 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: you get rich. It was kind of weird, but a 324 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: lot of people seem to feel good just talking about 325 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: money out loud. A lot of what we're doing is 326 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: stripping away taboos of not only money, but even just 327 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: women declaring to each other that, wow, I am having anxiety. 328 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: Nowt work, I'm struggling, right, that's a taboo to say 329 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: that maybe the ultimate thing women feel anxiety about is 330 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: how to advocate for themselves in the workplace. A lot 331 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: of women think if they can just figure out how 332 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: to negotiate better, they'll finally get the money they deserve. 333 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: Ladies Get Paid knows this audience and the speakers had 334 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: a lot to say on the subject. If they don't 335 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: get into a place where you feel good thinking about 336 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: so when you think about your no text number. A 337 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: lot of way you want to do here. So if 338 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: you get a really good email from a client or 339 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: someone internally in the company, say it. But it's somewhere 340 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: where you have mayload all you If you know you've 341 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: done your research for what you should be making, that's 342 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: when you have a decision to make. But salary negotiation 343 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: is a pretty fraught subject for women. We're told that 344 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: we're bad at it, but we're also punished when we 345 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: do it well. We don't speak up for ourselves or 346 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: we're too aggressive. It's one of the reasons why the 347 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: Advice and Lean In was ultimately disappointing for a lot 348 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: of people. Claire says, the conference focuses so much on 349 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: salary negotiation because that's what women want, so we had 350 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: I mean, at this point, eight women have written in 351 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: to us. When they sign up, they say what they're 352 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: most interested in, and the reason we've done so much 353 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: salary negotiation curriculum is because they've told us overwhelmingly that 354 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: they just need help. You also want to be careful 355 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: of not giving women bad advice in terms of just 356 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: go in there and ask for the biggest number and 357 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: you know it's like, there's a lot of nuances to this. 358 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: You have to be very strategic and aware of your 359 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: the context of your relationship if you're a woman of color, 360 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: even more so. Uh So, it's certainly not a one 361 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: size fits all even among women. What qualifies is actionable 362 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: for one person might not work for someone else. Can 363 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: money get paid? Actually seemed to get this. The speakers 364 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 1: were black, Indian, divorced gay. Still, the realist lessons happened 365 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: out in the audience, with people swapping tips based on 366 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: their own life experiences. For instance, I talked to Maria Popolio, 367 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: are freelance user experience designer in Seattle, when she learned 368 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: that the agencies she worked for was billing clients almost 369 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: seven times more than what they were paying her. She 370 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: came back with one of the most effective negotiating tactics 371 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: in the book. I took census data, like the U. 372 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: S Census, and I printed it out, and I was like, 373 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: this is what I'm going for, And through all of that, 374 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: that's where I developed my tactic of the weirdly specific number. 375 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: When Maria goes into a job interview, instead of saying 376 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: she wants, say sixty an hour, she'll go in with 377 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: something like fifty seven. It plays into a concept called anchoring, 378 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: which basically says that whoever throws out the first number 379 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: in a negotiation automatically gets the upper hand. In general, 380 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: people like round numbers, so if you throw out a 381 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: weirdly specific number to start with, whoever you're negotiating with 382 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: is likely to counter with another weird number, say fifty 383 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: dollars an hour instead of fifty. Because it's also helpful 384 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: to go into a negotiation with research to back you up, 385 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: Maria looked at the senses to figure out what other 386 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: people in the same industry we're making, because census data 387 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: is just a aggregate of all of the numbers rolled 388 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: up into one and they rounded up to the nearest dollar. 389 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: But you get non traditional numbers, you get numbers and 390 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: ends and three or seventh, and so I've kind of 391 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: taken that going forward. I'm like, every time I present 392 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: a salary, it's going to end in the three or 393 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: seven anchoring. The conversation may not help you seem less 394 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: aggressive when you try to negotiate your salary, but it 395 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: might just help you get closer to the number you 396 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: want to hit. And when you've been shut down over 397 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: and over again in your career, that little bit of 398 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: success can be huge. Even though the conference spent a 399 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: lot of time focusing on actionable advice. When I asked 400 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: Comisha Turner, an artist in Seattle who has a day 401 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: job as an account manager in the tech industry, what 402 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: she most got out of it, she said that you're 403 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: not alone. I think it's sometimes, especially when you're in 404 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: a corporate environment, you do feel alone. Even though it 405 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: can be expensive, and even if the advice isn't necessarily 406 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: fool proof, that little bit of community can make a 407 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: big difference. I feel like, um, sometimes there's a lot 408 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: of competition between women when you don't have an event 409 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: like this where you can come together and then be 410 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: epathetic towards each other and learn from each other and 411 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: share each other's stories. Because it can be cut throat 412 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: in the environment and it is a man, you know, 413 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: in the environment, Um, you kind of feel alone. You 414 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: feel like the women that kind of get it there, 415 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,479 Speaker 1: you know, kind of leaving you and alert. Whereas if 416 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: you really kind of put yourself and start start thinking like, oh, well, 417 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: wait a minute, these women also have gone through the 418 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 1: same thing, same thoughts, the same insecurities all of that, 419 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: then maybe I should talk to them instead of being, 420 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, feeling like I have to compete with them, 421 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: you know, and just understanding that we're all kind of 422 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: going through the same thing, maybe at different levels. Not 423 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: everyone finds Ladies get Paid as inspiring as Comische does. 424 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: Last year, the group was sued for gender discrimination by 425 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: several men for opening their events only to women, trans 426 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: and gender nonconforming individuals. The terms of their settlement haven't 427 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: been disclosed, but in May Claire admit it in the 428 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: weekly Ladies Get Paid newsletter that the group was close 429 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: to bankruptcy. She started a crowdfunding campaign to try to 430 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: raise a hundred thousand dollars, and three weeks later they 431 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: met their goal. Claire says that as part of the settlement, 432 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: she changed the Ladies Get Paid by laws to allow 433 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,239 Speaker 1: men to attend the events. But when I talked to 434 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: her again on the phone after the conference, she was worried, 435 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: they're not going to be the same when we have 436 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: our events. It is to provide a space for women 437 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: to se feel comfortable to share really vulnerable things they've 438 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: been really like disturbing things. Sometimes the people that they've 439 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: gone through, especially around a sexual harassment, um or toxic 440 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: work environments discrimination. And I'm very concerned that if there 441 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: are men in the room, these women are not going 442 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: to feel, you know, that level of comfort that they 443 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: did before, and then they're not going to share, and 444 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: then it's not going to be this environment of catharsis 445 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: and you know support that I wanted it to be. 446 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: Since the policy change, a small number of men have 447 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: attended events, and it's been okay so far as long 448 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: as women are still into it, she says, she'll be 449 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: happy by the work that we were doing. You know, 450 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't just about making more money for the sake 451 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: of making more money, but it was about power and 452 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: value and self worth and that the conference gave it 453 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: to them. So we're doing it again and we'll keep 454 00:25:51,400 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: going as long as people buy tickets. The amount we 455 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: have in our bank accounts or what we get paid 456 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: for our work can feel like a reflection of our 457 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: value as a person, and when it comes to the 458 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: pay gap, our individual experiences like not getting a raise, 459 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: or being interrupted during a meeting, or just not making 460 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: very much money can feel like a result of our 461 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: own shortcomings and entirely too big to solve on our own. 462 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: But Gabby said something that I think we can all 463 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: learn from by talking to other people. She realized that 464 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: she wasn't alone, that other people had similar problems because 465 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: they had similar life experiences, and knowing that helped her 466 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: begin to overcome her issues with money because she could 467 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: stop blaming herself and start seeing the problems for what 468 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: they really are. If you get one thing out of 469 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: the show, I hope it's that we're all experiencing the 470 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: pay gap collectively. We can't solve it by ourselves, but 471 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: individuals coming together and sharing knowledge is powerful. Like just 472 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: think about me too. Our individual experiences of sexual harassment 473 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: are intimate and isolating, but once every woman spoke out 474 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: at the exact same time, a bigger picture emerged, and 475 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: only then did we start seeing potential change. Not only 476 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 1: does sharing information make us feel less alone, but it 477 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 1: helps us find solutions. Thank you so much for listening 478 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: to The Paycheck. This is the last episode in our series. 479 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please head on over to 480 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to rate, review, and subscribe. 481 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: It really helps if you listen to all six episod 482 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: so thank you so much. If you haven't, go back 483 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: and listen, and please tell us what you think. We'll 484 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: continue covering the gender pay gap and are working on 485 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: more amazing stuff. Visit bloomberg dot com Slash the Paycheck 486 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: to sign up to be the first to hear about 487 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: our new projects and stories. This episode was reported by 488 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: Jordan Holman and hosted and reported by me Rebecca Greenfield. 489 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: It was edited by Jillian Goodman and produced by Magnus Hendrickson. 490 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: We also had help from Francesca Levi, Janet Paskin, and 491 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: Liz Smith. Our original music is by Leo Sidra. Carrie 492 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: vander Yott did the illustrations on our show page, which 493 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: you can find at Bloomberg dot com Slash the Paycheck 494 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: Special Thanks to tofor foreheads Laura Zelenko, Jackie Simmons and 495 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: all of our guests. Francesca Levy is head of Bloomberg Podcasts.