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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. I don't understand

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Speaker 1: how one investigator has this much control.

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Speaker 2: The FBI has this huge backlog of forensic work that

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Speaker 2: has never been done, DNA that's never been analyzed, The

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Speaker 2: victims and the victims' families have absolutely no sense of closure.

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Speaker 2: And I think Lolly and Julie's case is a really

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Speaker 2: sort of vibrant case to illustrate this point.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

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Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Author

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Speaker 1: Katherine Miles is truly a dogged journalist. She wrote a

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Speaker 1: book called Trailed, One Woman's Quest to Solve the Shenandoah murders.

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Speaker 1: Catherine digsonto the case of a possible serial killer in

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Speaker 1: a national park more than two decades ago, but she

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Speaker 1: has met with resistance from investigators, and a DNA test

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Speaker 1: could solve a string of murders, So why aren't they

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Speaker 1: doing something? So this is May of nineteen ninety six, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it's starting to feel like a

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Speaker 2: long time ago. I was a college senior in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety six, and I remember that year really well, and

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Speaker 2: it was a year that I think that there was

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Speaker 2: a fair amount of kind of uncertainty that was happening

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Speaker 2: in America. This was the year of the Atlanta Olympic Box,

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Speaker 2: means there was a lot that was happening I think

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Speaker 2: politically as well too. And it was also I think

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Speaker 2: a really sort of defining era in terms of LGBTQ

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Speaker 2: issues and really starting to have those conversations on a

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Speaker 2: national level.

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Speaker 1: So where does the story take place.

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Speaker 2: The murder of these two young women, Lollywinan's and Julie Williams,

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Speaker 2: is in Virginia, in Shenandoah, National Park. But for me,

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Speaker 2: this story is a lot bigger than that. I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to foreground the story of Lolly and Julie and

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Speaker 2: make sure that they were really sort of front and

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Speaker 2: center for the whole book as a whole, And so

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Speaker 2: I actually began the story much earlier, telling the story

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Speaker 2: of these two really extraordinary women both as individuals, and

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Speaker 2: then how they sort of found each other and fell

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Speaker 2: in love as well.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's hear it. Tell me how they met and

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Speaker 1: who they were before that.

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Speaker 2: Julie Williams was a young woman who grew up in

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Speaker 2: Minnesota and was what her friends used to call a

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Speaker 2: one woman Peace Corps. She was fluent in Spanish, and

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Speaker 2: beginning in high school, she would volunteer to interpret for

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Speaker 2: women who were domestic assault survivors. She was a geologist

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Speaker 2: by training, and by the time she had graduated from college,

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Speaker 2: had already done a ton of work, either missionary work

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Speaker 2: in Central and South America. She had been on archaeological

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Speaker 2: digs throughout Europe. She had been doing geologic and water

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Speaker 2: work on really remote native lands in northern Minnesota. So

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Speaker 2: it was just highly competent in the world and really skilled,

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Speaker 2: and she had gone to an organization called Woodswomen, this

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Speaker 2: really remarkable sort of women's centric outdoor organization, to take

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Speaker 2: a canoeing class and just fell so in love with

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Speaker 2: the organization that she came back then to take a

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Speaker 2: leadership class in May of nineteen ninety five, and it

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Speaker 2: was there that she met Lolli Winans, who was sort

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Speaker 2: of the yin to her yang. Where Julie could be

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Speaker 2: a little reserved, a little introverted, Lolli was this just

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Speaker 2: larger than life figure who people just fell in love

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Speaker 2: with wherever she was. She was a big, grateful, dead

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Speaker 2: fan and you know, was always kind of at the

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Speaker 2: center of any party that she was at, usually with

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Speaker 2: a corona in her hand, and was really funny and outgoing.

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Speaker 2: And she was a student at Unity College and she

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Speaker 2: liked Julie was also a sexual assault survivor, and Lalie

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Speaker 2: had really found her way in outdoor recreation programs, and

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Speaker 2: she had committed to launching an outdoor program and a

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Speaker 2: wilderness program for sexual assault survivors, a sort of therapeutic

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Speaker 2: place where people could really kind of come to terms

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Speaker 2: and really find a new way back into their bodies.

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Speaker 2: So she was doing an internship focused towards her graduation

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Speaker 2: so that she could do this, and by all accounts,

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Speaker 2: it was love at first sight, bells and whistles and

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Speaker 2: birds and everything else like that, and the two really

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Speaker 2: just fell head over heels and love, and their colleagues

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Speaker 2: and co workers really fell in love with them as

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Speaker 2: well too. At the end of that they had been

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Speaker 2: in this very sort of safe kind of cocoon where

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Speaker 2: it felt okay really to be exploring the sexual relationship,

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Speaker 2: and at the end of that summer they had some

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Speaker 2: really hard choices ahead of them going into this social

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Speaker 2: milieu that was really not at all welcoming to a

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Speaker 2: lesbian couple. So they had sort of a tumultuous year

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Speaker 2: when Lolly was back in school, Julie had moved to

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Speaker 2: Vermont to be close. But they had come out the

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Speaker 2: end of that year really having committed to this very

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Speaker 2: long term romantic relationship and had decided to take a

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Speaker 2: week to go to Shenandoah National Park to kind of

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Speaker 2: be with each other and kind of re engage before

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Speaker 2: they were going to be moving in together.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about why they felt

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Speaker 1: so conflicted to be together at that time. Is this

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Speaker 1: society or is it their families.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just really where we were culturally in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six. You know, this was an era in

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Speaker 2: which the Supreme Court had just confirmed that antisodomy laws

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Speaker 2: were constitutionally legal. We have states like Colorado and Oregon

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Speaker 2: passing or at least trying to pass these legislative acts

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Speaker 2: that are sort of identifying home sexuality is potentially illegal

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Speaker 2: and certainly immoral. This is three years before Matthew Shepherd

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Speaker 2: is really brutally murdered. So it's just not really a

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Speaker 2: safe space for a lot of LGBTQ type folks to

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Speaker 2: be there. And so I think certainly for these two

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Speaker 2: young women who in a lot of ways were still

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Speaker 2: exploring their sexuality and trying to decide to what degree

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Speaker 2: they wanted their sexuality to be a part of their

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Speaker 2: sort of outward and political identity, there was a lot

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Speaker 2: at stake. There also was a real reckoning beginning in

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Speaker 2: the eighties and still going on today with issues of

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Speaker 2: things like sexual harassment and sexual assault that were happening

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Speaker 2: not just in these wilderness organizations but also within our

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Speaker 2: national parks, often employee on employee, and so for a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, especially people who identify as so called

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Speaker 2: subordinate social groups, whether that's because of gender, or sexuality,

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Speaker 2: or race or anything else like that. These were not

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Speaker 2: organizations where people felt welcome.

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Speaker 1: So switching over to the store, Wally and Julie decide

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Speaker 1: in May of nineteen ninety six that they want to

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Speaker 1: go into the wilderness. So they go on a little

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Speaker 1: hiking adventure in Shenandoah National Park in Virginia. What's that

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Speaker 1: park like.

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Speaker 2: It's a really interesting park because it's very close to Washington,

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Speaker 2: d C. It's a really easy drive, and so in

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Speaker 2: that regard, it's sort of the opposite of remote. But

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Speaker 2: what's really interesting about the park is it's this long,

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Speaker 2: narrow park that I sort of equate to the sort

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Speaker 2: of shape of a lizard if you can kind of

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Speaker 2: picture that going down the Shenandoah Mountains. And it has

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Speaker 2: one road that goes through this one road called Skyline Drive.

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Speaker 2: So while that is very congested and hectic, especially during

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Speaker 2: the summer, if you get just off that road, it

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Speaker 2: really does feel like utter and complete wilderness. And so

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Speaker 2: that can be really exciting for folks who want a

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Speaker 2: true backcountry experience, but it also raises challenges for the

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Speaker 2: rangers in terms of patrolling, and as we're going to

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Speaker 2: see really quickly in this particular story, for personal safety

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: Before this happened in nineteen ninety six, was this considered

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Speaker 1: a safe park for people to go to camp out in.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and no, I mean I think that all of

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Speaker 2: our national parks are comparatively safe when you compare them to,

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Speaker 2: for instance, urban environments. But you know, a couple of

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Speaker 2: things were happening here first because there is such ready

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Speaker 2: access from Washington, d C. You do see this influx

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Speaker 2: of folks, some of whom are looking to kind of

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Speaker 2: hide under the radar a little bit. And by nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety six, our national parks were already in real crisis

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Speaker 2: in terms of underfunding, a problem that really continues today.

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Speaker 2: And so in the spring of nineteen ninety six, Shenandoah

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Speaker 2: is understaffed in terms of its rangers. The rangers are

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Speaker 2: under equipped in terms of their gear. Their radios, for instance,

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Speaker 2: famously don't work, and so the rangers can't even communicate

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Speaker 2: amongst one another. They're undertrained, Their access to things like

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Speaker 2: the sort of most up to date weaponry is all lacky,

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Speaker 2: and that so all of this kind of comes together

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Speaker 2: to kind of create sort of a perfect storm of

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Speaker 2: circumstances that would allow a serial murder to move without

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Speaker 2: a trace within the park.

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Speaker 1: As an aside, I didn't realize that park rangers carry weapons.

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Speaker 2: There are two types of park rangers, and I don't

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Speaker 2: know that I really realized this. Either there's interpretive rangers,

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Speaker 2: who are the folks that are leading us on nature

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Speaker 2: walks and things like that, and then law enforcement rangers

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Speaker 2: who have all of the sort of legal rights and

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Speaker 2: privileges of state police or FBI. And with our national

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Speaker 2: park system, there's this very sort of strange division of

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Speaker 2: labor where the FBI and then these law enforcement rangers

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Speaker 2: have joint purview. And so the idea is these two cultures,

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Speaker 2: which are very very different and not really compatible, are

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Speaker 2: supposed to come together and join forces to investigate crimes.

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Speaker 2: And as I detail in the book, that creates some

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Speaker 2: really I think unfortunate circumstances that make these is really

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Speaker 2: hard to solve.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start from their trip, can you take me through?

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Speaker 1: They arrive, they check in, they pay their fee. What

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Speaker 1: happens after that?

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Speaker 2: One thing that is both I guess good news for

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Speaker 2: the telling of the story. But also I think really

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Speaker 2: emotional for me is I was able to access their

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Speaker 2: journals that they were writing during this, so we do

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Speaker 2: actually have a really good sort of day to day

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Speaker 2: account of how they were spending their time. They had

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Speaker 2: sort of committed to this trip. They were both very

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Speaker 2: experienced backcountry campers and hikers, and they could have been

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Speaker 2: covering a lot of mileage every day if they had

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Speaker 2: wanted to, but they really just wanted this to be

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Speaker 2: sort of a reconnection trip, and they really wanted to

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Speaker 2: focus on their relationship. So they were taking it really slow,

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Speaker 2: which is great. And so they were spending some time

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Speaker 2: on the Appalachian Trail which runs through there, and doing

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Speaker 2: you know, just a lot of sort of camping really

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Speaker 2: beautiful spots far removed from everyone else, and doing a

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Speaker 2: lot of personal work, I think, doing a lot of

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Speaker 2: relationship work, doing a lot of that kind of journaling.

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Speaker 2: And so I think it really was a beautiful moment

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Speaker 2: in their lives in a lot of ways. So at

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Speaker 2: some point the two women decide to go down this

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Speaker 2: very disused trail, and this is such a big question

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Speaker 2: mark for me. It's never become clear how and why

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Speaker 2: they even knew this trail existed, It wasn't even on

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Speaker 2: all of the maps. But there's a trail called the

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Speaker 2: Bridle Trail which leaves from a fairly well attended resort

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Speaker 2: called Skyland. And at one time the Bridle Trail was

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Speaker 2: literally where all these horseback riding events would take place.

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Speaker 2: But that required people to cross this very busy road.

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Speaker 2: So eventually the stables at Skyland relocated their horse trails

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Speaker 2: so that folks wouldn't have to cross the road, and

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Speaker 2: at that point the Bridle Trail really fell into disuse.

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Speaker 2: Even today, there's no sign marking the trail. I have

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Speaker 2: been there countless times, and I still have to search

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Speaker 2: for it a little bit. Somehow they found this trail,

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Speaker 2: and they descended about a third of the mile down

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Speaker 2: the trail, and then, like any good backcountry camper should,

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Speaker 2: they then bushwhacked off the trail about two hundred yards

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Speaker 2: and they found this very pristine location next to a stream.

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Speaker 2: It's a perfect backcountry hidden site, and they set up

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Speaker 2: their tents, they set up the backpack gear, water purifier,

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Speaker 2: all of that sort of thing. We don't know how

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Speaker 2: the murderer found them. I speculate in the book that

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Speaker 2: I think he must have followed them down the trail,

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Speaker 2: because the tent was all but invisible from the trail,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, once this search begins for the two women,

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Speaker 2: rangers will repeatedly walk by this tent site and not

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Speaker 2: even see their tent set up. It was that hidden.

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Speaker 2: But at some point this person comes in very sophisticated crime,

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Speaker 2: what forensic psychologists call an organized crime, as opposed to

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Speaker 2: the sort of disorganized crime of passion that tends to

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Speaker 2: be very messy and leave a lot of evidence.

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Speaker 1: Like he didn't stumble on them, saw the opportunity, killed them,

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Speaker 1: and then took off and left all these clues behind.

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Speaker 1: This is someone who plotted to do something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what's really really terrifying, right. This was

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Speaker 2: a person who saw them, came prepared with a murder kit,

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Speaker 2: tracked them through the wilderness, and then managed to subdue

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Speaker 2: these two very strong, athletic, competent, confident women who also

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Speaker 2: had a dog with them. He brought this murder kit

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Speaker 2: that included duct tape. He bound and gagged them first

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Speaker 2: with the duct tape, then with their own long underwear,

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulted at least one of them, had them separated.

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Speaker 2: We think Julie was the primary target for him. Then

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Speaker 2: very brutally and decisively murdered these two women and escaped

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Speaker 2: with almost not a trace, just one very decisive slice

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Speaker 2: to both throats.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, so efficient, which means I think we're going

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Speaker 1: to get to this sounds like somebody who's done this before,

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Speaker 1: because he's plotted so well.

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Speaker 2: I do. I lay out a case in the book.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to try to be as objective as possible

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Speaker 2: so that readers could come to their own conclusion, because

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Speaker 2: while the FBI believes they know who did this, this

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Speaker 2: is still an open case. And so one of the

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Speaker 2: things I try to do in the book is walk

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Speaker 2: through who the FBI thinks did it and why and

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Speaker 2: that indictment, and then I also offer another suspect, which

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Speaker 2: is who I think did it. And one of the

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Speaker 2: things I really wanted readers to have the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: do is to be able to go through and do

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Speaker 2: their own kind of investigation and come to their own

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Speaker 2: conclusions about who they think did it as well.

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Speaker 1: So they are killed, Is anything taken? Has he looted

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Speaker 1: their belongings at all?

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Speaker 2: It's a little hard to tell because one of the

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Speaker 2: things that I think is really interesting and important here

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Speaker 2: is that wilderness crimes as a crime scene is just

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Speaker 2: a completely sort of foreign and difficult concept, especially to

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Speaker 2: the FBI. So even understanding where a crime scene in

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Speaker 2: the wilderness begins and ends, it's just not like a

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Speaker 2: bedroom in house, where you secure the premises and you

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Speaker 2: can see what's been taken out of the drawers and

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Speaker 2: look for fingerprints. None of that makes sense in the

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Speaker 2: back country, so we can't know exactly what they had

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Speaker 2: in their backpacks. It appears that it looks like this

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Speaker 2: person may have taken underwear from Julie, which is why

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Speaker 2: I think the person who I name in the book

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Speaker 2: is such a strong suspect. There's some other reasons as well,

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Speaker 2: but certainly targeting them. Certainly there was a sexual component

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Speaker 2: to it for sure, and then disappears. And again that's

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Speaker 2: one of the real challenges with these wilderness cases is

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Speaker 2: sometimes it takes a really long time to figure out

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Speaker 2: that someone is missing, and then even longer to figure

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Speaker 2: out where they are. And so whereas if someone might

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Speaker 2: be killed in their house, it might be just hours

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Speaker 2: before the FBI or the state police or whomever is

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Speaker 2: on the scene and able to collect evidence. In this case,

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Speaker 2: it's days and maybe even a week before the authorities

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Speaker 2: even arrive.

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Speaker 1: So my question is about communication. Right now, this happens

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Speaker 1: in nineties, and I got my first cell phone, I

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Speaker 1: think in fall of ninety four. Did they have cell phones?

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Speaker 1: Certainly they wouldn't have worked out in the wilderness.

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Speaker 2: At one point, Julie had sort of one of those

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Speaker 2: do you remember those old timey like car phones that

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Speaker 2: were sort of in a bag and it had like

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Speaker 2: an antenna. At one point Julie had one of those.

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Speaker 2: But certainly they didn't have cell phones on their person.

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Speaker 2: And even today when I'm in Shenandoah, there are places

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Speaker 2: in Shenandoah where I don't have cell reception, which I

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Speaker 2: think is part of that kind of quasi remoteness that

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Speaker 2: it has.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, were they in contact, regular contact with their families

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Speaker 1: when they went on these types of trips.

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Speaker 2: That was part of the delay. So Lalli was largely

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Speaker 2: estranged from her family. She was an incest survivor, and

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Speaker 2: that had really I think rocked the family and her

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Speaker 2: parents really struggled to deal with that. So Lali's family

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Speaker 2: had become her circle of friends, most of whom were

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Speaker 2: also very active in the back country and outdoor leadership

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Speaker 2: type programs, so it was very usual for them to

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Speaker 2: go weeks or even months without communicating because they were

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Speaker 2: all off in the back country. Julie had a great

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Speaker 2: relationship with her family, and it was actually her father

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Speaker 2: who first notified the rangers. She was overdue, first to

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Speaker 2: move out of her apartment and then later to begin

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Speaker 2: a job that she was really excited about. And so

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Speaker 2: when her roommate, who was really miffed because she wasn't

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Speaker 2: there to help move out of the apartment, he called

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Speaker 2: Julie's parents and that evening. At first they were like, well,

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Speaker 2: that's that's okay, this has happened before. Julie's just not

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Speaker 2: near a phone. We'll hear from her soon. But there

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Speaker 2: was something that just kind of stuck out and it

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Speaker 2: didn't feel right to them, and so that night, which

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Speaker 2: was a Thursday night, they thought, well, maybe we should

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Speaker 2: call authorities, but who is the authority here? Shenandoah spans

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Speaker 2: something like five counties, so sheriffs don't quite work. They

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Speaker 2: call the National Park headquarters and they get an answering

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Speaker 2: machine that says, you know, we're closed. Call back tomorrow morning,

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Speaker 2: So there's another delay. When they finally get a hold

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Speaker 2: of rangers on what is a Friday, rangers have to

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Speaker 2: make a decision how big of a deal do we

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Speaker 2: think this is? And then at first they don't because

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Speaker 2: they're really accustomed to folks who show up late or

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Speaker 2: forgot to tell someone that they decided to stop by

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Speaker 2: and see a friend or something like that. So the

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Speaker 2: search begins really fairly casually, which is appropriate at that time,

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Speaker 2: and it's not until several days go by that the

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Speaker 2: search really starts to amplify. And then eventually Lali's dog,

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Speaker 2: Tage appears without a caller on, looking rattled, looking hungry,

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Speaker 2: and that's when everything changed. Everyone agreed that there was

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Speaker 2: no circumstance in which these two women would not have

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Speaker 2: been with their dog. So the appearance of a very

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Speaker 2: rattled Taj is what really accelerates this search.

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Speaker 1: So what's the last entry in their travel journal? What

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Speaker 1: does it say that they did they found this little spot.

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Speaker 2: It's heart wrenching. Actually, they weren't so much talking about

356
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Speaker 2: the places they were, They were talking about their relationship.

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Speaker 2: And Julie and Lally's last entry both are just really

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Speaker 2: talking about the love that they have for each other,

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Speaker 2: the idea that while that past year of living apart

360
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Speaker 2: and trying to decide what does it mean to be

361
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Speaker 2: a same sex couple that had really kind of taken

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Speaker 2: a toll on both of them, And so their last

363
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Speaker 2: entries are just so forward looking. They're like, this is

364
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Speaker 2: the love of my life. I'm committing to this person.

365
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Speaker 2: I cannot wait to get the summer going. I cannot

366
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Speaker 2: wait to get the rest of my life going with

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Speaker 2: this person. And that's the real heartbreaking aspect of this

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Speaker 2: for me.

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Speaker 1: So they finally, I'm assuming, stumble upon this crime scene.

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Speaker 2: This is the first of several puzzles that, again I

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Speaker 2: try to lay out as objectively as possible for readers

372
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Speaker 2: because I want them to be able to come to

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Speaker 2: their own conclusions. But it's late. It's on a Saturday.

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Speaker 2: At this point. The ranger who patrols this area of

375
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Speaker 2: the park and who's responsible for patrolling this particular trail

376
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Speaker 2: has walked by the tent site several times and not

377
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Speaker 2: seen the tent because it's so hidden. It's dusk, and

378
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Speaker 2: these two male rangers embark down the trail. Dusk falls

379
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Speaker 2: very dramatically in the Shenandoah Valley, right, because these guys

380
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Speaker 2: are on the east side of the valley, so it's

381
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Speaker 2: really quite dark. And then these two rangers just say

382
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Speaker 2: they happen upon the tent, which has always been a

383
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Speaker 2: question for me. Interestingly, the ranger that happened upon it

384
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Speaker 2: was one of two rangers involved in this case who

385
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Speaker 2: wouldn't talk to me, so I was never able to

386
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Speaker 2: ask him how it was that he happened to find it.

387
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Speaker 2: But once this tent is found, it is immediately the

388
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Speaker 2: fog of war in the Shenandoah National Park, and the

389
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,720
Speaker 2: authorities there start to make a series of catastrophically terrible

390
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:47,640
Speaker 2: and in some cases utterly indefensible decisions, including withholding from

391
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 2: both the media and partgoers and the general public that

392
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 2: this murder had occurred for about forty eight hours. They

393
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 2: tried to pass it off first as a bear attack

394
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Speaker 2: and then as a murder suicide, which again two women

395
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Speaker 2: bound and gagged at this point fifty yards apart from

396
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Speaker 2: each other, their throat slit. How this is anything other

397
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,960
Speaker 2: than a double murder is absurd, And yet the park

398
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 2: withholds this from the millions of people who are coming

399
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 2: into the park and backpacking or bringing their families. They

400
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 2: have no idea that a potential serial killer may be

401
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 2: among their midst and for me, that's again one of

402
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: the most horrifying moments in the story.

403
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Speaker 1: Will we return to the two park rangers that you

404
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: said you have some questions about do they play a part? Later?

405
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 3: They sure do.

406
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,479
Speaker 2: And one of the big questions for folks and all

407
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 2: of this, folks who really follow true crime may be

408
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 2: familiar with a series of murders called the Colonial Parkway murders,

409
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 2: which began in nineteen eighty six, also on Virginia National

410
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 2: Park property. And four of the rangers who worked the

411
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,959
Speaker 2: Colonial Parkway murders were also the rangers working this murder

412
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Speaker 2: ten years later.

413
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Speaker 1: Wow.

414
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: And so some people have tried to draw some real

415
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 2: comparisons between the Colonial Parkway murders and the Shenandoah murders.

416
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Speaker 2: And in fact, at one point, the FBI strongly suspects

417
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: two of these rangers. Not only do they compel the

418
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Speaker 2: rangers to take light detector tests, but they also are

419
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: able to get court permission to search their vehicles, search

420
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 2: their homes. That's how strong of a suspect they were

421
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: at one point. For the FBI.

422
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: Well, just to recap for listeners who heard Blaine Pardou,

423
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: who wrote a book on the Colonial Parkway murders, I

424
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Speaker 1: can't remember how many couples that were murdered, is it for?

425
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Speaker 2: There's some questions about which murders should be considered Colonial

426
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: Parkway murders and which shouldn't, but four, I think is

427
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: a safe number.

428
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Speaker 1: Some of them are remote. The Colonial Parkway seems like

429
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: a major thoroughfare, but I've driven it and it's scary

430
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,560
Speaker 1: at night even now. I can't imagine what it was

431
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: like in the eighties. And some of these were in

432
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: remote areas where people really had to know where to go.

433
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Speaker 1: So I see that comparison as being totally valid. That

434
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: is also an open case too. That's a serial killer

435
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: who hasn't been caught yet. So FBI are they in

436
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 1: when they discover these bodies, and now they're working with

437
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: the park rangers, so.

438
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 2: It takes a while. So the rangers find the bodies.

439
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: The first thing the rangers do is they secure the

440
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: site as best as they can. But again, it's not

441
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: like taping crime scene tape on the front door of

442
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: a house, right, So where do we even put tape like,

443
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: where does this begin and end? As a question, it's

444
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 2: the middle of the night at this point, and by

445
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 2: the time they get a hold of the FBI, it's

446
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: several more hours, and by then it's so dark there's

447
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 2: nothing anybody can do. So it isn't until then Sunday morning, right,

448
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: So the women have been reported missing on a Thursday.

449
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: Now it's a Sunday morning before, for instance, the medical

450
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: examiner is able to get there, before they're able to

451
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: remove the bodies, before they're able to start doing any

452
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: evidence collections. So that's a problem. And it's definitely ranged. Okay,

453
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: the women were killed, so that's also a problem. And

454
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 2: then we start to see this culture war between the

455
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: FBI and the National Park Service rangers. The FBI has

456
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: just created a brand new organization within them called their

457
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: Evidence Response Teams, who are responsible for collecting the evidence.

458
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: That was something an initiative that came out of the

459
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City bombings in nineteen ninety two. So we have

460
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: this brand new evidence response team that's never been called

461
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: to a violent crime scene and who were trained to

462
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: secure urban places. And then we have these Park Service

463
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 2: law enforcement rangers who are experts at backcountry crime investigation,

464
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: but the FBI has primacy, and so we see this

465
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 2: budding of heads in terms of evidence collection. And what

466
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: multiple investigators who worked this case told me was that

467
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: undoubtedly evidence that could have closed this case was lost

468
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: because of this and because of the decisions about how

469
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: they What they ended up doing was bagging it all

470
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: up in trash bags, taking it to another ranger station

471
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: and trying to investigate it there. And there are some

472
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: colossal missteps that happen there that just removed what could

473
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 2: have been essential evidence.

474
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: But they were able to collect DNA evidence, is that right?

475
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 2: They do. They collect hair and they collect some male

476
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: DNA that was on the gag that was used to

477
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: gag one of the women. There's other trace evidence that

478
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: has not been recollected now that we have mechanisms that

479
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: can go back over through things like sleeping bags, duct

480
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: tape and get that really tiny, little almost molecular evidence.

481
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: So may springtime in Virginia. I can't imagine there aren't

482
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: scavenger animals around with these two women and their remains

483
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: for at least a week. We think that they were

484
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: out there. Well.

485
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: One of the good news pieces of the rain and

486
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: the fact that When Lolly and Julie arrived in Shenandoah

487
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: on May nineteenth of ninety six, Shenandoah was going through

488
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 2: this incredible heat wave, record breaking heat. This huge storm

489
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: moves through on the Wednesday of their trip, sort of

490
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: halfway through their trip, and it brings cold, rainy weather.

491
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: One thing that was actually helpful about the cold rainy

492
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: weather is I think it did prevent a lot of

493
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 2: scavenger activity good and it also minimized insect activity on

494
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 2: the bodies as well too, so it didn't look as

495
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: if scavengers had gone through and disturbed the crime scene.

496
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: But of course no one will ever really know.

497
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: So there is it sounds like, for a lack of

498
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: a better term, a pissing match between the National Park

499
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: Rangers and the FBI. Where do they start. There's the

500
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: murder suicide. I'm assuming that the FBI wrote that off

501
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: pretty quickly based on the crime scene.

502
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 2: Right, and word eventually gets leaked to the media. So

503
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: the women are found very late on a Saturday. Sunday

504
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: is sort of evidence collection day. By late Monday, the

505
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 2: media has received word that there has been a double

506
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 2: murder in one of the most popular national parks in

507
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: the country and all of a sudden, there's this huge

508
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 2: just cloud of media descending on the park. And again

509
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 2: in these initial media press conferences, they continue to try

510
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: to say that they think that this is a murder suicide,

511
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: that there is not a third party involved here, and

512
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: this goes on for another couple of days.

513
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 1: I'm so confused by that, is that an attitude that

514
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: the National Park Service has now that they are so

515
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,479
Speaker 1: protective of visitors coming and the money that comes in,

516
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: that they would do that.

517
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: One of the things that was very troubling to me

518
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: in my research for the book is what a problem

519
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 2: the National Park Service has in terms of dealing with crime.

520
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 2: There is no codified mechanism for how parks should deal

521
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: with violent crime, and so what both the Inspector General,

522
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: the Department of the Interior, and the Government Accountability Office

523
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 2: has determined is that we have a major problem right

524
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: now with how violent crime is investigated and reported in

525
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: our national parks. What we know is that there's a

526
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: profound underreporting a violent crime and an underreporting of even

527
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: inept or even malicious behavior on the part of rangers.

528
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 2: And that was another thing I really wanted to call

529
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 2: attention to in this book is how safe are our

530
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: national parks really and how concerned should we really be

531
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 2: about safety there?

532
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea with these rangers the area

533
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: that each person is responsible for covering.

534
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 2: This is where that sort of attrition and that sort

535
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: of funding really comes into place. Shenandoah was understaffed with rangers,

536
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: and the rangers there were doing a great job. I

537
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: think most of the rangers were doing their absolute best work,

538
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: but there weren't enough of them. And what I've found

539
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: now is that there are some national parks that don't

540
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: have any law enforcement rangers, or they have one law

541
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: enforcement ranger who's literally covering thousands of acres. You just

542
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: can't be effective in that kind of environment.

543
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: So if we go back to the investigation, at what

544
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: point do they give and say, Okay, it was a

545
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: murder and somebody is out there and now we're trying

546
00:28:58,920 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: to work on that.

547
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: It was really the work of very dogged reporters and

548
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: one publication that no longer exists, but there was a

549
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: small niche newspaper called The Washington Blade, which was an

550
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: LGBTQ publication, and a reporter for the Blade is not

551
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: going to give up on this case, and he keeps

552
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: showing up with these press conferences and he's like, how

553
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: can this possibly be a murder suicide? And it's these

554
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: reporters that really force the issue and force the Park

555
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: Service and the FBI to acknowledge that they are in

556
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: fact dealing with a double murder. There's already been one

557
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: murder of a young woman, Alicia Showalter Reynolds, who was

558
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: murdered just outside the park in March of ninety six.

559
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: Her body was found just about two weeks before Lollie

560
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: and Julie were murdered, and was found very near the park.

561
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: And then that summer there would be multiple other murders

562
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: of young women right around the park. And so for

563
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: people like forensic psychologists and for filers at the FBI,

564
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: this very clearly became for them the work of a

565
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: serial killer. But that wasn't the way in which the

566
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: investigation unfolded.

567
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: Tell me about Alicia. Did the media know that story

568
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: that happened two weeks earlier?

569
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: It was hugely reported upon. Alicia Showalter Reynolds was a

570
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: very talented graduate student at Johns Hopkins. She was studying

571
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: pandemics actually, and she had been traveling from Washington to Charlottesville.

572
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: Her twin brother was going to be getting married, and

573
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: Alicia and her mom had planned to spend the day

574
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: buying dresses for the wedding. She was driving down what

575
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: was a very rural road at the time called Route

576
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: twenty nine, and at that point the Route twenty nine,

577
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: Stalker had already started his work, and his MO was

578
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: basically to signal women that there was something wrong with

579
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: their cars and kind of flag them down, and then

580
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: when they stopped, he'd show up and act like he

581
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 2: was this very concerned, sort of boy scout guy, who,

582
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: you know, I noticed there were flames under your car,

583
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: and this is really dangerous and you should have that

584
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: looked at, and he'd offer them a ride to a

585
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: service station. And this had been going on, and the

586
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: sort of creep factor had been increasing significantly in this

587
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: rural part of Virginia, And what folks think now is

588
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: that he'd been sort of preparing to kind of take

589
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: further action against his victim, and he chose Alicia. Got

590
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: her in his vehicle, which was a truck. We know

591
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: that it was either a dark green or a very

592
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: dark blue, almost kind of black truck, and then again

593
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: very brutally murdered her, buried her in a shallow grave

594
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: off of a very remote road that would be hard

595
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: to know about, and so had led folks on this

596
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: sort of six week search for her body, which had

597
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: again just been found just a few weeks before Lolly

598
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: and Julie.

599
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: The man who killed her is the Route twenty nine stalker.

600
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: That's the same person, you're saying, we think so.

601
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: Again, like with the Colonial Parkway, it's hard to know

602
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: how many people were dealing with right here, whether all

603
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: of these Route twenty nine cases were one person or

604
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: more than one person, but certainly there was a very

605
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: strong mo that was happening in about thirty of these

606
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: stalker cases on Route twenty nine, and authorities believe that

607
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: those were all one person.

608
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're on the investigation with Lollie and Julie.

609
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 1: At what point do they connect this with maybe this

610
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: is somebody who's responsible for multiple killings.

611
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: They don't. The investigators do not, which is remarkable because

612
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: you literally have the founders of the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit,

613
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: people like John Douglas, saying this has got to be

614
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: the work of a serial killer. But for about fourteen months,

615
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: the FBI and the National Park Service rangers go through

616
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: a series of suspects, including one another, and then by

617
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: July of nineteen ninety seven, the case has basically gone cold.

618
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: At that point, and as investigators told me, they had

619
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 2: literally run out of leads.

620
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: That's the next big break here. Is there DNA testing.

621
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: There is there's mitochondrial DNA testing, and that'll become really important.

622
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: But without a suspect to compare the DNA too, it

623
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: doesn't really do a lot of good. So at this

624
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: point the case is just languishing. And then in July

625
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety seven, a young man named Darryl David Rice,

626
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: who was a computer programmer in eastern Maryland, suffered from

627
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: significant mental health issues, including bipolar schizophrenia. In the spring

628
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety seven, his life is completely unraveling. His

629
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: father lived right outside of Shenandoah, and he would spend

630
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: a lot of his time cycling in the park. So

631
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: in July of ninety seven, he's been fired from his job.

632
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: His mental illness has become completely unmanageable. He's not sleeping,

633
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: he's smoking a lot of marijuana, and one day in

634
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: ninety seven, he drives into the park, he sees a

635
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: woman cycling down that main thoroughfare skyline drive, and he

636
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: decides he's going to drive back and forth. He's harassing her.

637
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: He's yelling expletives out the window. At one point he

638
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: throws a soda bottle at her, and then he runs

639
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 2: her off the road and in a really menacing way, says,

640
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to get you. At that point, she screams.

641
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 2: She runs for help. The little store that she runs

642
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: to tries to call the rangers. They can't get through

643
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: because the rangers radios aren't working. They eventually get a

644
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 2: description of Rice and his truck to the rangers, and

645
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: in that moment, the Rangers are thinking, we've got our guy.

646
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 2: This is the guy who killed Lolly and Julie, and

647
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: they apprehend him. They remarkably bring him back to the

648
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: young woman to identify, which must have been terrifying to her,

649
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: and he asks. He says, did you ever solve that

650
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: double murder from last year? And at that point the

651
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: Rangers are like, this is the guy, and so they

652
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: really use the arrest of this harassment case, which again

653
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: is a crime, right, I'm not using Rice's behavior, but

654
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 2: they use this arrest as the time they need to

655
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 2: detain Rice and to start a case against him in

656
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: earnest and this case continues today. Millions and millions of

657
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: dollars have been spent by the FBI, including embedding their

658
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 2: leading counter terrorist undercover agent in Rice's cell. They fabricate

659
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 2: issues of the newspaper, They fabricate postal cancelation stamps from Europe,

660
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: all in an effort to try to get Rice to

661
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: confess to this murder.

662
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: And they're able to do that for someone who should

663
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: have a public defender and who I'm assuming has been

664
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: officially diagnosed with a mental illness, you're allowed to fabricate

665
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: and lie like that.

666
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: In two thousand and two, John Ashcroft, the Attorney General

667
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 2: of the United States, makes a very public announcement that

668
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: he's going to use brand new hate crime legislation, the

669
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: first hate crime legislation in this country. He's going to

670
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: use it to seek the death penalty against Rice in

671
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: this brand new indictment. And he gives this bizarre public

672
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: televised press conference in which he says the nation has

673
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 2: been shattered by September Eleventh's is just a few months

674
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: after September eleventh. It's been shattered, hate crimes are on

675
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: the rise, We're all looking for justice. And then he

676
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: makes this conflation and he says, by putting Darryl Rice

677
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: to death, the country is going to somehow heal from

678
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: September eleventh. It's a bizarre, just utterly bizarre combination of

679
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: two things that just don't fit. So at that point

680
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 2: this becomes such a high profile case that Rice is

681
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: sort of given this dream defense team. And what they

682
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 2: told me too, is that the hardest thing for Rice

683
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 2: to deal with was the fact that this guy, Mike Jerman,

684
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: the agent who was embedded in his cell, who then

685
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: becomes Daryl's constant penpal. They exchanged something like fifty letters.

686
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: He'd come visit him during visiting hours. The hardest thing

687
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: for Dale Rice was to come to learn that this

688
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 2: guy he thought was his best friend was actually an agent.

689
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: We had talked about the victims of whomever is the

690
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: person who's doing this, and we don't think it's Daryl Rice.

691
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: So we've got Alicia, You've got Lollie and Julie potentially

692
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: from the same person. Did you mention there were a

693
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: couple of other women after Julie and Lollie.

694
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: Eight women One of the things we include in the

695
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: book is a very detailed map that shows people just

696
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: how close in proximity these murders are, and in some

697
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 2: cases there are very significant similarities, like, for instance, being

698
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: bound with duct tape, the way in which the bodies

699
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 2: are sort of tied into their sleeping bags, some really

700
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: stark similarities.

701
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: Is there DNA that connects all of them or do

702
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 1: we not have samples from everyone?

703
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: We have samples. And at one point, jumping ahead a

704
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: few years after all of this has unfolded, the indictment

705
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 2: has happened, an individual named Richard Mark evanis kidnaps a

706
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: young woman, Kara Robinson, who very heroic manages to extricate

707
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: herself from her apartment after just this like horrific twelve

708
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: hours of being raped, and she manages to escape his

709
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 2: apartment and run to get help and to get the police.

710
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: At that point, Avonnet sort of knows that the police

711
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: are onto him, and he begins this multi state high

712
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 2: speed chase which ends with him committing suicide in his car.

713
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: At that point, Avonnets becomes a suspect in multiple other crimes,

714
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: including very briefly, Lolly and Julie's the State Police of

715
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: Virginia decide they have enough evidence to close three cases

716
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: and tie them to Avonnets. In three of those cases

717
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 2: are these eight that I'm mentioning that occur right around

718
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: the time of Lolly and Julie's death. For a very

719
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: brief period of Hoonnets is in fact a lead suspect

720
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: in Lolly and Julie's case. There's DNA testing that happens

721
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: that does not rule him out. And then, for reasons

722
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: that no one has been able to explain to me,

723
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: at that point, the so called of hoon Its task Force,

724
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 2: which was supposed to be investigating multiple murders around the country,

725
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 2: is disbanded and they are told to not investigate evon

726
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: its for anything else. So, yes, there is DNA, and no,

727
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: it has not been compared despite the fact that the

728
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 2: FBI lab has continually said that it should be.

729
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: Who has the authority to make the decision that it

730
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: all should be tested and let's close these cases.

731
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: The lead investigator in this case, and this is one

732
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: of the things that just makes me furious. And this

733
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 2: is one of the things that if I can hope

734
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: that this book is going to do something I'm hoping

735
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: that what this book will do is create enough public

736
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 2: momentum that the FBI has no choice. At one point,

737
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: the FBI takes DNA evidence from Lolly and Julie's crime

738
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 2: scene and they do a mitochondrial DNA test analysis on it.

739
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: We have much more sophisticated testing now, but at the

740
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: time that was sort of the best guess. And what

741
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 2: a anddrial DNA test does is it compares evidence at

742
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,959
Speaker 2: eight hundred points on the DNA chromosome. So I'll take

743
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: these eight hundred points of mine and compare them to yours,

744
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: and we'll see how similar they are. The FBI labs

745
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: policy is if a comparison comes back and seven hundred

746
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: and ninety eight of those places are identical, then a

747
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: person cannot be ruled out. In the fact, that person

748
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: must be continued to be considered a viable suspect. The

749
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 2: FBI gets this evidence from the crime scene, they compare

750
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: it to Darryl Rice, and they compare it to Mark Evonnits.

751
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: It comes back completely different from Rice. I don't know

752
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: six hundred places are different. I'm making that number up,

753
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: but it comes back with a Hoonnits seven hundred and

754
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: ninety nine places are identical. And at that point the

755
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: FBI investigator says, rerun the DNA against Rice and it

756
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: is never tested against a Hoonnors Again.

757
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: Had he been to Shenandoah Park, had he known the trail,

758
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 1: does he fit that profile?

759
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 2: He definitely does. When the FBI and the state police

760
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: go into his apartment, they find a chest that's filled

761
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 2: with women's underwear, really disturbing pornography, lots of women's hair.

762
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 2: And when he was on this high speed chase, he

763
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 2: was talking to one of his sisters and she said,

764
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: have you done this before? And he said yeah, And

765
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: she said how many times? And he said more times

766
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: than I can remember. One of the things that was

767
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: really disturbing that we found was he also kept all

768
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: these slips of paper that would have descriptions of women,

769
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: descriptions of back roads, including the back road where Alicia

770
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: Showalter Reynolds was found, and then just a log of

771
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: women that he kept that he had met online or

772
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: other sources, some of whom I talked to who had

773
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: no idea that they had gone on a date with

774
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: a serial killer. As far as I can tell, there

775
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: was a very brief moment of really what is only

776
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: a few weeks where Avonna was a suspect in this

777
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 2: case and then at that point everything is dropped. So

778
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 2: we don't know. I've been working with the Innocence Project

779
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: to reinvestigate all of these cases, and we don't even

780
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: really know where all of this evidence that was taken

781
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: from Evonez's house is right now? Has it been.

782
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: Lost Evonitz's case. Is that with the Virginia State Police

783
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 1: or was that with the FBI?

784
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: And that's also a little mushy oh evidence, I mean,

785
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: come on, the evidence was in a locker with the

786
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: Virginia State Police. Alicia Showalter, Reynolds's mother, who's been a

787
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 2: really great supporter of this investigation that I've been doing.

788
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: I had to tell her that cloth gloves were found

789
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 2: at Alicia's car, cloth gloves that look identical the cloth

790
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: gloves that were found at Lolly and Julie's crime scene.

791
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: She didn't know that, and as far as she knows,

792
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: those gloves have never been analyzed. Cigarette butts were found

793
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 2: at both scenes. As far as we know, those have

794
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: not been analyzed.

795
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: Okay, evidence was collected at these scenes. Some of it

796
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 1: that was collected was poorly collected. We don't know precisely

797
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: who has what, but there is a suspicion that we

798
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: might have enough DNA at most or all of these

799
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 1: eight murderers to compare it to Avon. It's right if

800
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: we wanted to.

801
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, the FBI lab is ready and waiting to compare it.

802
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 2: I have an expert at the University of California who

803
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: regularly works with the FBI doing very sophisticated DNA analyssons.

804
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: He's like, I just need a centimeter of each hair

805
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,240
Speaker 2: sample and I will answer this for you. And none

806
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: of this has been received by the FBI.

807
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's talk about the families a little bit.

808
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: I know that Lolli was estranged from her family. Have

809
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: they talked to you at all or have you heard

810
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: anything from them?

811
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 2: Lolli's mother, unfortunately, died well before I began the book project.

812
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 2: Lolli's father, when I began the book project was in

813
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: late stage Alzheimer's, so I was not able to talk

814
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: to her parents. I was able to talk and continue

815
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 2: to talk to her community of friends who really were

816
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: her family. And they've been fantastic resources and supporters of

817
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: this book because again It's as important, if not more important,

818
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: to me, that Lolly and Julie remain the main characters

819
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: in this book and not Rice and the honors. I

820
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: think too often in true crime we forget about the

821
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 2: agency of the victims and we really focus on the perpetrators,

822
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: and I really wanted to keep Lolly and Julie and

823
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 2: their communities front and center. Julie's family was really helpful

824
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: and supportive when I was writing the book, and it's

825
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: because they were all willing to sit with me and

826
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: share stories and baby pictures and things like that that

827
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 2: I was able to really tell the story of who

828
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: these two women were and why they were just so remarkable.

829
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: So where do we stand now? Is Darryl Rice in

830
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: jail or prison?

831
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: So Darryl Rice was in prison. He did serve the

832
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: full sentence for that assault against the cyclist. They tried

833
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: to pin the root twenty nine stalker cases on him.

834
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: That didn't work when it finally came back that none

835
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: of this DNA was matching Rice in even the slightest.

836
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: At that point, his trial had moved to jury selection,

837
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: so it's just about to get going. And at that

838
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: point the prosecution thought we literally have no physical evidence,

839
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: and the circumstantial evidence we have is so faint and

840
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 2: so tangential that we're really concerned that we're not going

841
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,919
Speaker 2: to get a guilty verdict. And so what they did

842
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: is they dismissed his case using a concept called without prejudice,

843
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: and without prejudice basically means we really think we have

844
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 2: a really solid case here, but there's been some procedural

845
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: thing that's happened that's prevented us from pursuing this the

846
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 2: way we want to, and so they can bring the

847
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: case against Darryl Rice back at any moment, and so

848
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: he ultimately lives in a state of constant double jeopardy.

849
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: And as far as I can tell, he's the only

850
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 2: individual in America who currently is in this state where

851
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: he can be brought back for a capital case at

852
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: any time. And meanwhile, everywhere he goes was the local

853
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: newspaper picks up on it, and it's like serial killers

854
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: walking amongst us.

855
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: And it's a tragedy because we come back to Lallie

856
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: and Julie. They were advocates, they were survivors. Must have

857
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: been really difficult for you to report on. It would

858
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 1: have been difficult for.

859
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: Me, I have felt so connected to them since nineteen

860
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: ninety six. As soon as I heard about the murders,

861
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 2: it really shattered my sense of security in the back country.

862
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: I've had untold numbers of people approach me after a

863
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 2: book talk or a lecture and say, I remember that case,

864
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: and I've never gone back into the woods, or I've

865
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: never gone camping alone again, And in that case, I

866
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: think that this really is a hate crime. I think

867
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 2: for an entire generation of people, especially queer non binary women,

868
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 2: this case continues to haunt them and continues to affect

869
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 2: them in ways that has dramatically changed who they are

870
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: whenever they go outside.

871
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Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, Matthew mcgow on the

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Speaker 1: LAPD officer who murdered her ex boyfriend's wife.

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Speaker 3: She was confiding in her parents and several friends more

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Speaker 3: than one that there was this woman who was a

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Speaker 3: LAPD officer. There were times that Sherry felt like she

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00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 3: was being followed, so clearly it's stalking behavior, but there

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00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 3: wasn't really a name for it. So there were a

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Speaker 3: lot of incidents in the months leading up to the

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00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 3: murder that were very concerning to Sherry.

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Speaker 1: My new book, all that Is Wicked is available for

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Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum, Our sound designer is Andrew Epen.

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Speaker 1: Curtis heath Is. Our composer, Nick Toga did the artwork.

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Speaker 1: Il Sabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark,

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