WEBVTT - Al Franken, Madiba Dennie & Stephen Brill

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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<v Speaker 1>where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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<v Speaker 1>today's best minds and Donald Trump said he'll deport protesters. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>mass deportations, go aheads what everybody wants. We have such

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<v Speaker 1>a great show for you today. Deputy editor for Balls

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<v Speaker 1>and Strikes, Medeeba Danny joins us to talk about her

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<v Speaker 1>new book, The Originalism Trap, how extremist stole the Constitution

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<v Speaker 1>and how we the people can take it back. Then

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<v Speaker 1>we'll talk to Newsguards founder Steve Brill about his new book,

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<v Speaker 1>The Death of Truth. How social media and the Internet

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<v Speaker 1>gave snake oil salesman and demagogues the weapons they need

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<v Speaker 1>to destroy trust and popolarize the world, and what we

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<v Speaker 1>can do. But first we have former Senator and host

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<v Speaker 1>of the Al Franken podcast, The One the Only Al Franken.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Fast Politics, Al Franken.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Mollie. Great to be back.

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<v Speaker 1>Always a delight to have you. Dick Durbin is he

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<v Speaker 1>a friend of yours?

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<v Speaker 2>Let's yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you and Dick Durbin buddies?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know for buddies, but you we're friends?

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, Dick Durbin is the chair of Judiciary Samuel Alito.

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<v Speaker 1>Perhaps you've heard of him. Yes, he recently got a

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<v Speaker 1>Trump Truth, which is Trump's version of Twitter, and Trump untruthed.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's just say untruth because he's it.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well that's the biased I think that's biased.

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<v Speaker 1>But yes, fiaus, Trump untruthed about how happy he was

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<v Speaker 1>that Alito was not going to recuse and how good

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<v Speaker 1>it was that he had Justice Alito on his team.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that how the Supreme Court is supposed to work?

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<v Speaker 2>No? Now, I was on the Judiciary Committee and we

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<v Speaker 2>had we had rules about how it was supposed to work,

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<v Speaker 2>and that wasn't one of them. He didn't even nominate Alito.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, what is the solve for this? Like, doesn't the

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<v Speaker 1>Judiciary Committee have more power than just a strongly worded letter.

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose they could subpoena him. The committee could, and

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<v Speaker 2>then I don't know what happens, right.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean they could subpoena him, They could hold hearings.

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<v Speaker 2>Hearings are easy to do. I mean you could do

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<v Speaker 2>that because they're in the majority, and they have majority

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<v Speaker 2>on the committee, right, right, So yeah, they could have

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<v Speaker 2>hearings on this and I don't know if the Republicans

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<v Speaker 2>would show up or not, but so what right?

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<v Speaker 1>So why do you think they're not holding hearings on this,

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<v Speaker 1>because like if Ruth Bader Ginsburg was flying an Antifa

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<v Speaker 1>Forever flag in her house and Nantucket, I think that

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans would be upset, and Republicans controlled the Senate. I

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<v Speaker 1>think Ted Cruz would march her in.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that Antifa flag. I haven't. I haven't

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<v Speaker 2>seen it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's tied.

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<v Speaker 2>I oh, okay, was it flown in Portland when.

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<v Speaker 1>Ruth bader Ginsburg big Antifa person? I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>you know this very into spray painting things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well they can't call her little known fact. They

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<v Speaker 2>can't call her in. These are all good questions. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if Sheldon, if you were the chairman, would

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<v Speaker 2>be doing something different than than Durbin. Is Sheldon White House?

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<v Speaker 2>Of course?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Yeah? I mean, don't you think you'd be pushing harder?

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<v Speaker 2>I do. I don't know why Dick isn't.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I feel like, so here's a question for you.

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<v Speaker 1>It feels like we maybe, look, we don't know what's

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<v Speaker 1>going to happen in November. I continue to be a

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<v Speaker 1>cock eyed optimist. But if Democrats have a moment here

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<v Speaker 1>to protect democracy, shouldn't they be doing that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? And no, I don't know what they do. Frankly,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the committee can do because all

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<v Speaker 2>I would happen is is that Alito wouldn't show up, right.

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<v Speaker 1>But I mean even that, like, don't you think the

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<v Speaker 1>more they can protect norms the better?

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<v Speaker 2>What are the norms? The norms are not to fly

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<v Speaker 2>a flag upside down, I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, ruling on cases and then to have another flag

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<v Speaker 1>at your beach house. Your beach house flag is a

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<v Speaker 1>Christo fascisty flag. Yeah, it's a Christian Christian fundamentalist. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Also favored by the Speaker of the House, Donald Trump's favorite,

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<v Speaker 1>Mike Johnson.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that legitimizes it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it makes me feel much.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it goes like, hey, the Speaker of the

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<v Speaker 2>House has it in front of his office. Isn't that

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<v Speaker 2>where he has it?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes?

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<v Speaker 2>But these were flags that both the upside down American

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<v Speaker 2>flag and what's it the heaven?

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<v Speaker 1>It's the appeal to have in flag capital letters above

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<v Speaker 1>the tree. The pine tree is a symbolization is the

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<v Speaker 1>symbol of New York's of New England. The phrase appeal

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<v Speaker 1>to have it appears in John Locke's second Treatis on Government.

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<v Speaker 2>So originally it wasn't the fascist flag.

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<v Speaker 1>Where it is used to describe the right of evolution.

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<v Speaker 1>Stemmed from the belief that God would deliver the colonists

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<v Speaker 1>from tyranny.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, that's where the religion comes in.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of it gets kind of dark in there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, at first you're like, oh, it's a little green tree,

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<v Speaker 1>New England Bucolic, and then they're like, God free us.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, some of the founders evoked God, right

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<v Speaker 2>or invoked God, and God we trust is on our money,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we're.

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<v Speaker 1>Back to this textureless thing, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Alito is always a what's the word dick? I know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean so, And of course he when Barack Obama

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<v Speaker 2>spoke out against Citizens United, remember, right, he mouthed not true.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he hasn't come to ah. I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>he's come to a State of the Union address. Sense.

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<v Speaker 1>I heard when I was in DC this weekend, I

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<v Speaker 1>heard lots of like bad stories people complaining about Alito.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then there's the trips and the money and

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<v Speaker 2>all that stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, he didn't get an RV, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>not the RV. What I do think is interesting. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you have two justices and this is like not a

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<v Speaker 1>left leaning court at all, but you have two justices

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<v Speaker 1>who are like expressly in the tank for Trump, right,

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<v Speaker 1>Alito and Thomas are basically like you know, and then

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<v Speaker 1>you have Thomas writing things.

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas has his wife that's very involved in trying to write.

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<v Speaker 1>The wife who was involved and yeah, trying to overturn

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<v Speaker 1>the election. Then you have Alito, who is the wife

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<v Speaker 1>who's flying the upside down flag. So clearly the real

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<v Speaker 1>housewives of the Supreme Court are not.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I would like to see that series.

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<v Speaker 1>You would not. Can you imagine? It's like it's like

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<v Speaker 1>missus Alito drinking and fighting with her neighbor.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course you know one of the liberal justices

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<v Speaker 2>have wives.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's right, none of them have wives, and now

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<v Speaker 1>others mark against them no wives, but it would be

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<v Speaker 1>funny to have the spouses. But yeah, I mean, what

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<v Speaker 1>do you do with the problem like the Supreme Court?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I know what I would do if Biden

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<v Speaker 1>wins again, which all he wants is to not have

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<v Speaker 1>to do this, but he's going to have to fucking

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<v Speaker 1>put in term limits in the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, he won't be able to unless we

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<v Speaker 2>have And this is what the importance of the election is.

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<v Speaker 2>One he has to win and two we have to

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<v Speaker 2>hold fifty in the Senate and we have to win

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<v Speaker 2>the House. That's all we have to do.

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<v Speaker 1>It should be no big deal.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right now things are looking great.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is the laugh to knock hery thing.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing is about invoking term limits. First of all,

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<v Speaker 2>if you can do that, if you're the one who

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<v Speaker 2>can do that, it's because you have both the House

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<v Speaker 2>and the Senate and the White House. And if you

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<v Speaker 2>have both the Senate and the White House, then you

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<v Speaker 2>presumably have may have an appointment if either Thomas or

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<v Speaker 2>Alito retire, which they won't with a Democratic president, but

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<v Speaker 2>if they were to, you know, if Biden wins, that

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<v Speaker 2>means he's president for the next four years. And those

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<v Speaker 2>guys hang on and Biden waits until he gets an appointment,

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<v Speaker 2>which he won't get unless one of those guys passes on.

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<v Speaker 1>But the whole thing with in my mind is like

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<v Speaker 1>they have to try, right, The American people have put

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<v Speaker 1>these these guys in office to try and whether or

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<v Speaker 1>not it works. I mean, like you'll say, say one

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<v Speaker 1>thing about Republicans, they have this insane base, but they

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<v Speaker 1>serve their fucking base, right, Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Green,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, has been trying to impeach Joe Biden for

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<v Speaker 1>fifty five million years, right, I mean she basically is like,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, these people will do anything for their base. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 1>you have Democrats who are like, their base is writing

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<v Speaker 1>little postcards. They're begging them, they're saying please, And Democrats

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<v Speaker 1>are like, you know, I mean, it is kind of

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<v Speaker 1>amazing how little.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait a minut who's begging whom to write postcards.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying, the Democratic base does all this stuff, and

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<v Speaker 1>Democratic electeds are sort of like, yeah, well it might

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<v Speaker 1>not work. I mean, like, I think they should try.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the base would be pleased to see. And

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<v Speaker 1>it's not even about pleasing them, it's about keeping American

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<v Speaker 1>democracy going, which strikes me as a good cause.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're saying that Biden and a Democratic Senate and

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<v Speaker 2>a Democratic House should pass term limits, even though Biden

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<v Speaker 2>might be the one that get the first apployment.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, aps of fucking lily. And I'm saying that, like,

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<v Speaker 1>even though Marjorie Taylor Green.

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<v Speaker 2>So, isn't that us shooting ourselves in the foot in

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<v Speaker 2>a sense, because then our guy who we get in

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<v Speaker 2>or our woman who we get in will be the

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<v Speaker 2>first one to have an eighteen year term limit.

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<v Speaker 1>No, make everybody be like, this is it? You know

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to start them now? I mean, here are

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<v Speaker 1>the choices, right you expand the court, you put in

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<v Speaker 1>term limits. I mean, there are just not a ton

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<v Speaker 1>of great choices at least term limits. And even if

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<v Speaker 1>you expand them five years for everyone, you know whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>you give eighteen years to everyone on the court right now,

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<v Speaker 1>or you do.

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<v Speaker 3>What I.

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<v Speaker 1>Mean, I just think that there's no reason to I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>You know who would have to maybe test the constitutionality

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<v Speaker 2>of that who the Supreme Court? Yes, that would be

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<v Speaker 2>very interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying that trying that it's important to try.

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<v Speaker 2>I can just see, like, only Democrats with the President

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<v Speaker 2>and with the Senate and a chance to appoint someone

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<v Speaker 2>if Thomas or if Alido retires or passes on, only

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<v Speaker 2>Democrats to be the one to be able to choose

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<v Speaker 2>a justice and make that the first justice to have

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<v Speaker 2>an eighteen year limit, right, No, I know, and then

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<v Speaker 2>it'd be like, way to go, Democrats. You get a

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<v Speaker 2>gun and you shoot yourself in the foot.

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<v Speaker 1>What I'm saying here is that the Democrats have an

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity to behave more like Republicans, and they should take it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I understand you're saying play hardball, and

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<v Speaker 2>I understand that, yes, and that is a Sheldon white

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<v Speaker 2>House proposal, And a lot of people have proposed this,

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<v Speaker 2>the eighteen year thing, and that makes sense that and

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<v Speaker 2>starting with the first time you do it, then every

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<v Speaker 2>president gets I guess to a term.

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<v Speaker 1>The idea here is that Democrats should be obstreperous and

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<v Speaker 1>they should do whatever they can do to save American

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<v Speaker 1>democracy whatever that looks like.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I'm saying the irony would be to save

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<v Speaker 2>democracy the first you know, the.

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<v Speaker 1>First, right, But I'm I think you're getting too stuck

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<v Speaker 1>on this idea of what of the like specifics of

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<v Speaker 1>what I'm saying. I'm saying that they should hold hearings

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<v Speaker 1>and make a rackus and do the kind of things

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<v Speaker 1>that people like Ted Cruz do, right, except do it

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<v Speaker 1>for the good Democrats continually they bring a stuffed animal

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<v Speaker 1>to a fucking knife fight every time. You know, Dick

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<v Speaker 1>Durbin has a strongly worded letter, the guy is like

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump is like, Alito, I'm so glad I have

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 1>you on my team, Like a strongly worded letter versus Alito,

0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad you're on my team. Like this is

0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.800
<v Speaker 1>where American democracy dies. It's like one side is collegial

0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 1>and the other side is like, I'm really glad we

0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 1>have this all wrapped up.

0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Let me ask you when you said write letters.

0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.880
<v Speaker 1>You have these democratic base they write postcards to get

0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:57.040
<v Speaker 1>people to isolate, and that's good. I mean they kill themselves,

0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:57.560
<v Speaker 1>you know.

0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Well I would encourage people to do that and also

0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 2>encourage people to door knock.

0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but their fucking representatives should be killing themselves too, Like,

0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.440
<v Speaker 1>if you're working so hard to get these people elected,

0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:09.560
<v Speaker 1>they should be.

0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:09.880
<v Speaker 4>I mean.

0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.920
<v Speaker 1>The thing about Marjorie Taylor Green is that she's a

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.840
<v Speaker 1>complete lunatic and not very smart. But imagine if we

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.600
<v Speaker 1>had someone on the left, if we had Democrats who

0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.720
<v Speaker 1>were doing things like that, who were pushing so hard

0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:29.760
<v Speaker 1>and filing resolutions and you know, holding hearings and doing

0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.080
<v Speaker 1>all of those things. But for American democracy.

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, I do think that if Sheldon white House were

0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.679
<v Speaker 2>the chairman, that you would be having hearings right now.

0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and you know, let Republicans not show up. You know,

0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.760
<v Speaker 1>that says as much as anything. I mean, look, the

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.400
<v Speaker 1>one thing that Donald Trump has done that has been

0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to say brilliant because it's going to

0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.760
<v Speaker 1>destroy American democracy ultimately very likely, is that he has

0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.000
<v Speaker 1>not acted within the kind fines of the American government.

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 1>Right every He's taken his situation to his base. So

0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:05.960
<v Speaker 1>he said, you know, they're trying to impeach me, but

0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 1>they're really trying to impeach you. Everyone thought, oh, it's

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.800
<v Speaker 1>too stupid to work, but in fact his people are like,

0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.679
<v Speaker 1>they're trying to impeach us. So obviously it has worked

0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:17.599
<v Speaker 1>not to get too obstreperous.

0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>It worked that the last one was the one that

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.360
<v Speaker 2>is the tragedy that McConnell took the position he took,

0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.480
<v Speaker 2>which was he did one of those speeches where the

0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.000
<v Speaker 2>keyword was butt, you know, because it was like, there's

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.400
<v Speaker 2>no doubt that you know that Donald Trump is responsible

0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.640
<v Speaker 2>for what happened on January sex and then blah blah

0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 2>blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.440
<v Speaker 2>But and that's the most important word. I think Howard

0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.240
<v Speaker 2>Feynman taught me that that's the most important word in

0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.760
<v Speaker 2>the speech is but. And then, of course he completely

0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:54.200
<v Speaker 2>negated the argument on immunity by saying, you know, this

0:14:54.240 --> 0:15:00.200
<v Speaker 2>can be adjudicated in court. And now, of course they

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.560
<v Speaker 2>were trying to get Alito to recuse himself on this

0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.280
<v Speaker 2>immunity thing, and of course he won't.

0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.520
<v Speaker 1>Right, It's shocking that Alito won't do the right thing

0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.240
<v Speaker 1>despite the fact that he has got every point. I mean,

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.960
<v Speaker 1>if you listen to those oral arguments, like you know,

0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 1>both oral abortion arguments, you immediately have Alito and Thomas

0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.560
<v Speaker 1>and they're being like, well, what about the section three

0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.480
<v Speaker 1>four seven six the Comstock Act, which hasn't been has

0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.080
<v Speaker 1>been dormant since eighteen sixty four. What about that? Because

0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:36.200
<v Speaker 1>people have fucking plans and designs on American democracy and

0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 1>we're writing strongly worded letters.

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Yep, Well, let's talk about something more optimistic. How about

0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, I've been following the trial, and I know

0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 2>that there's been a lot, a lot of coverage of

0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:52.160
<v Speaker 2>this on MSNBC, and yet as much as I watch,

0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.800
<v Speaker 2>I've still confused about like what the original crime was,

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.320
<v Speaker 2>et cetera. But I think he's going to be convicted.

0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Shocked if he was acquitted, but there could be hung.

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Jury or mix split charges.

0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.000
<v Speaker 2>But let's say he does get convicted. I asked my

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.560
<v Speaker 2>wife this, asked Franny, what would you sentence him to

0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.560
<v Speaker 2>if you were the judge? And my wife said five years,

0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.600
<v Speaker 2>which one the maximum is four years in this But

0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 2>so this is what I said, thirty days.

0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:23.680
<v Speaker 1>Thirty days, Okay.

0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 2>The reason for that is I think he has to

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.280
<v Speaker 2>go to jail. Now, not everyone who gets convicted of

0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:33.720
<v Speaker 2>this crime evidently goes to prison, and in fact most don't,

0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.120
<v Speaker 2>but I feel like he should go. But I think

0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.080
<v Speaker 2>that anything maybe beyond ninety days or something like that

0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:46.600
<v Speaker 2>is just seems punitive and political. So I thought thirty days,

0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.200
<v Speaker 2>which I can imagine he could do without going crazy.

0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's not going to jail, that's what you're saying.

0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:54.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's no way.

0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 2>So that there's no sentence of this.

0:16:55.560 --> 0:17:00.480
<v Speaker 1>This is Look, why it's good it is because you

0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:04.879
<v Speaker 1>do crimes, you should be treated like other people who

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:09.200
<v Speaker 1>do crimes. We don't have special justice for affluent white guys.

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we actually do, but we shouldn't.

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:13.800
<v Speaker 2>It's always in the opposite direction.

0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, he's just not going to jail. It's not going

0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:22.199
<v Speaker 1>to happen. I think there's a scenario where he loses reelection,

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.920
<v Speaker 1>and you know, remember he is running for reelection basically

0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.320
<v Speaker 1>to stay out of jail. That's not me saying that.

0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.040
<v Speaker 1>That's well heard. So what I think I think a

0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.600
<v Speaker 1>likely scenario. And by the way, this is not some

0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.320
<v Speaker 1>contrary thought. I mean pretty much everyone. You know he

0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:41.239
<v Speaker 1>announced in the hopes of not getting indicted, and if

0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.840
<v Speaker 1>the Justice Department had moved a little faster, none of

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.080
<v Speaker 1>us would be here right now. You know, Biden would

0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.200
<v Speaker 1>be running against Nikki Haley. And you know, while a

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of us don't like Nikki Haley, she is not

0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.840
<v Speaker 1>going to end American democracy, not in those heels. So,

0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.520
<v Speaker 1>by the way, one last thing about Nikki Haley. She's

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.679
<v Speaker 1>always like underestimate me. That you know, there are all

0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.240
<v Speaker 1>these like Nikki Haley tweets that are like underestimate me.

0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:06.760
<v Speaker 1>That'll be fun. I'm like, I actually thought you had

0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.000
<v Speaker 1>a spine. And now I know you don't, so that's

0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.840
<v Speaker 1>not underestimated. That's like overestimating.

0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why she endures Trump other than she maybe,

0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:18.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, speaking circus, she.

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:19.960
<v Speaker 1>Wants to be HUD secretary.

0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Really, no fucking with you.

0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:29.440
<v Speaker 1>We got away over time. But yes, but you're fun.

0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 1>We're fun. We're all fun.

0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:32.320
<v Speaker 2>You're fun. I'm not.

0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:37.720
<v Speaker 5>We're depressed. We're pretty depressed. What's there to be depressed about?

0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.399
<v Speaker 5>Really nothing. We got a good six months left on

0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.040
<v Speaker 5>American democracy.

0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.000
<v Speaker 2>We didn't even get into Gaza, so yeah, yeah, there

0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:48.640
<v Speaker 2>we go. So there's nothing.

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Nothing to be depressed about. Alf Franken, thank you. Spring

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 1>is here, and I bet you are trying to look fashionable,

0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.560
<v Speaker 1>so why not pick up some fashionable all new Fast

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store with all

0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.600
<v Speaker 1>new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and top bags. To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com.

0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.040
<v Speaker 1>Medeeba Denny is deputy editor for Balls and Strikes and

0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:28.440
<v Speaker 1>author of The Originalism Trap. How extremists Stole the Constitution

0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:30.960
<v Speaker 1>and how we the people can take it back.

0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:35.920
<v Speaker 6>Welcome to Fast Politics. Medeeba its Hello there.

0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.040
<v Speaker 1>Very excited to have you one of the things when

0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:44.119
<v Speaker 1>you listen to this Supreme Court, this insane Supreme Court,

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.560
<v Speaker 1>is that you hear a lot of the time that

0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:53.879
<v Speaker 1>the conservative justices, but especially Alito and Thomas, have embraced

0:19:54.280 --> 0:20:02.239
<v Speaker 1>this very insane the school of thought which is called originalism.

0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.359
<v Speaker 1>So talk to me about this book and explain to

0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:10.800
<v Speaker 1>us what originalism is if you can, please sure well.

0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:15.320
<v Speaker 6>Originalism, like you said, is the idea that the conservative

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:19.840
<v Speaker 6>legal movement has really embraced to justify all of said

0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.760
<v Speaker 6>bad decision making. The idea of originalism is that the

0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.800
<v Speaker 6>meaning of the Constitution is fixed in time. It's frozen

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 6>at the moment of enactment. And most originalists will say

0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:35.560
<v Speaker 6>that the way we understand the Constitution today has to

0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.000
<v Speaker 6>be how the public would have originally understood it when

0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:40.840
<v Speaker 6>the Constitution was ratified.

0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:45.840
<v Speaker 1>Tell us what America looked like when the Constitution is ratified.

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:51.560
<v Speaker 6>Not great, molly. It was not a good time for

0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:56.240
<v Speaker 6>the majority of the population. Political and economic and social

0:20:56.320 --> 0:21:00.760
<v Speaker 6>power was really concentrated in the hands of a elite

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.880
<v Speaker 6>class of wealthy white men who were landowners, right, Yeah,

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.440
<v Speaker 6>that's where the wealth came from, and everyone else had

0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.720
<v Speaker 6>little to no rights to speak of and so when

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:18.119
<v Speaker 6>you are linking the upper bounds of constitutional interpretation to

0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:22.679
<v Speaker 6>those historically low standards, it basically sets most of the

0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.960
<v Speaker 6>country up for failure because they're not going to be

0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.600
<v Speaker 6>able to exercise equal rights.

0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:33.639
<v Speaker 1>Can you explain to us how originalism got going and

0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:37.359
<v Speaker 1>how it sort of became the thing that Thomas and

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Alito pretty much hitting their hats on for everything.

0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.439
<v Speaker 6>Sure, well, the idea that you can use history and

0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.840
<v Speaker 6>tradition or what we think might be the original public meaning.

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.480
<v Speaker 6>I'm saying we think might be because there's a lot

0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:55.240
<v Speaker 6>who knows, yes, that idea has been pretty long standing

0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.760
<v Speaker 6>that you could look to these things. It's a very

0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:02.440
<v Speaker 6>modern recent innovation that the only way you can say

0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 6>what the Constitution means is by looking at the purported

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:10.360
<v Speaker 6>original public meeting. That's something that didn't really develop until

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.119
<v Speaker 6>as a backlash the Civil rights movement, we saw that

0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.399
<v Speaker 6>the Ronald Wakens Justice Department was really pushing back and

0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:23.040
<v Speaker 6>working to formalize this new idea of originalism. It didn't

0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.480
<v Speaker 6>even really have a name back then. It was in

0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:28.200
<v Speaker 6>the seventies and eighties that they began using the term

0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:32.399
<v Speaker 6>originalism and the express goal of it basically was to

0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:36.800
<v Speaker 6>push back against the perceived excesses of the Warren Court era,

0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:40.440
<v Speaker 6>which gave us some of the major decisions like Brown

0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.000
<v Speaker 6>view Board that we cherished today, or at least that

0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:44.240
<v Speaker 6>most of us shariesh today.

0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Right, I shouldn't laugh because this is like when I

0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:53.080
<v Speaker 1>laugh when I'm so depressed, and not because it's funny,

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.679
<v Speaker 1>because it's not funny. And will you just explain for

0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.520
<v Speaker 1>our listeners why brownby board is back in the vernacular.

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.240
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, there are a couple different reasons why. But most recently,

0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.240
<v Speaker 6>in a decision the Supreme Court handed down a few

0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:11.400
<v Speaker 6>days ago where the Court is effectively blessed racial jerrymandering.

0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:15.160
<v Speaker 6>Justice Thomas wrote a concurring opinion in that case where

0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:17.840
<v Speaker 6>he said that he doesn't think that the Court has

0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:22.000
<v Speaker 6>any role admunicating cases about racial jerrymandering, and he said

0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:25.080
<v Speaker 6>that this sort of remedy that the Court was using

0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.280
<v Speaker 6>really stems out of brownview Board, and that that type

0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:31.520
<v Speaker 6>of grand equitable relief that the Court at the Court

0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:33.760
<v Speaker 6>had used then, and his wording it was something to

0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.199
<v Speaker 6>the effect of this may have been necessary then, but

0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:40.119
<v Speaker 6>it is not necessary now. So, first of all, the

0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:44.080
<v Speaker 6>idea that it may have been like like, he's unsure

0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.159
<v Speaker 6>about whether or not Brownvie Board was above board, so

0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:49.879
<v Speaker 6>to speak. And then the second part of that is

0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:54.040
<v Speaker 6>saying even if it was necessary, then it's not necessary now.

0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.479
<v Speaker 6>And so yeah, this is part and parcel of the

0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:01.800
<v Speaker 6>Court's work to de faying all of the teeth that

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:05.720
<v Speaker 6>the civil rights movement had and take away all of

0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:11.280
<v Speaker 6>the whether constitutional or statutory protections for marginalized people that

0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:14.680
<v Speaker 6>folks have fought for over the last few hundred years.

0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:19.200
<v Speaker 1>And we recently learned that just as Sodomaya goes to

0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:23.920
<v Speaker 1>her office to cry after some decisions, which yeah.

0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:25.280
<v Speaker 6>She is not the only one.

0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:28.679
<v Speaker 1>I was wondering if you could explain to us a

0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.800
<v Speaker 1>little bit about so sort of there have been a

0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:36.120
<v Speaker 1>number of truly insane decisions out of this court. Their

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:40.920
<v Speaker 1>decision that racial jurymandering is a okay with them overturning Row.

0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Now they're looking at bringing back the Comstock Act. I mean,

0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:48.040
<v Speaker 1>explain to us where originalism fits in with this.

0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:54.160
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well, originalism by its own terms is like focused

0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:58.720
<v Speaker 6>on this idea of history based on resetting our understanding

0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:03.679
<v Speaker 6>of the Constitution. To however, conservatives say basically it was

0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:07.800
<v Speaker 6>understood two hundred years ago. It's a jurisprudence of rolling

0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:11.560
<v Speaker 6>back the clock. That's been the through line of all

0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:14.240
<v Speaker 6>of these sorts of cases that you mentioned, whether undoing

0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:19.400
<v Speaker 6>voting rights protections, or taking away the constitutional right to abortion,

0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:24.840
<v Speaker 6>or reinvigorating the Undead Comstock Act. The idea here with

0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:28.240
<v Speaker 6>all of these is putting things as we think they

0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:33.320
<v Speaker 6>once were are sort of idealized, nostalgic version of the past,

0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:39.200
<v Speaker 6>where the hierarchies that they care about, hierarchies of patriarchy

0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:42.880
<v Speaker 6>and racism and capitalism, where all of these structures were

0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 6>more enforced, and where the government didn't have, or rather

0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:52.320
<v Speaker 6>unless say they didn't have, didn't utilize tools to address these.

0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:56.120
<v Speaker 6>I think that's a really cool part, is that there

0:25:56.200 --> 0:26:00.720
<v Speaker 6>are tools that we can use. The reconstruction and men exist.

0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:03.320
<v Speaker 6>The whole purpose of the post Civil War and members

0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:06.600
<v Speaker 6>to the Constitution was to rid the country of its

0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:12.520
<v Speaker 6>government sanctioned and mandated subordination and creating an inclusive democracy

0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:15.159
<v Speaker 6>for the first time that worked for everybody. That was

0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:18.560
<v Speaker 6>the whole point. And so I would argue that we

0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:23.280
<v Speaker 6>have these tools there, and the conservative legal movement is

0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:27.199
<v Speaker 6>desperately trying to ensure that we don't use them and

0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:29.320
<v Speaker 6>that they cut off access to those tools.

0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:32.679
<v Speaker 1>It's funny because I think trump Ism is this last

0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:35.400
<v Speaker 1>gasp against a multi racial democracy.

0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:39.159
<v Speaker 1>It's like, you know, we're on the cost of it,

0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:42.200
<v Speaker 1>and trump Ism is like, oh no, what your talking

0:26:42.200 --> 0:26:45.200
<v Speaker 1>about is so important and it really does speak to reconstruction.

0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:48.919
<v Speaker 1>Can you talk about where reconstruction figures into this a

0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:49.480
<v Speaker 1>little more?

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:54.000
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, to briefly review what their reconstruction amendments were.

0:26:54.160 --> 0:26:56.399
<v Speaker 1>Yes, please, And you could even if you want to

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.720
<v Speaker 1>give even a little more backstory on sort of the

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:04.320
<v Speaker 1>detail on reconstruction and exactly how it influenced the law. Right.

0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:07.080
<v Speaker 6>So the idea like reconstruct is in the name, right, like,

0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:09.800
<v Speaker 6>we had to rebuild the nation in the wake of

0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:15.680
<v Speaker 6>the Civil War and construct a new foundation for law

0:27:15.920 --> 0:27:19.520
<v Speaker 6>that would apply equally across the country, regardless of race,

0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:24.159
<v Speaker 6>no longer the explicit subjugation that had existed before. And

0:27:24.240 --> 0:27:28.640
<v Speaker 6>so you had the thirteenth Amendment, which finally formally abolished slavery,

0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:31.840
<v Speaker 6>with the notable exception as for punishment for a crime.

0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:36.399
<v Speaker 6>You got the Fourteenth Amendment, which created birthright citizenship. It

0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:40.919
<v Speaker 6>established equal protection under law, do process under law. You

0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:45.000
<v Speaker 6>have the fifteenth Amendment, which prohibited racial discrimination in voting.

0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 6>Like all of these things came together to create a

0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:53.199
<v Speaker 6>new multi racial democracy, like to actually establish that for

0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:58.360
<v Speaker 6>the first time in the nation's charter. And they should

0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:04.280
<v Speaker 6>be viewed as reframing and recontextualizing the whole Constitution. We've

0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 6>been seeing this really chipped away in the past month actually,

0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:10.080
<v Speaker 6>as we say, the past several decades, but really as

0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:12.560
<v Speaker 6>soon as they were made, folks tried to undercut them.

0:28:13.040 --> 0:28:16.199
<v Speaker 6>They just had a lot of successes recently. Reconstruction is

0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:21.040
<v Speaker 6>important because those amendments are at the heart of so

0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.639
<v Speaker 6>many of the major civil rights victories that folks care about,

0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:28.280
<v Speaker 6>Like brownree Board was a fourteenth Amendment decision. Roby Wade

0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:31.240
<v Speaker 6>was a fourteenth Amendment decision. Oberga Felipe Holdgius was a

0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:34.920
<v Speaker 6>fourteenth Amendment decision. So all of these things have their

0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:40.800
<v Speaker 6>source in the liberatory mission of the Reconstruction Amendments, and

0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:44.000
<v Speaker 6>that's why there is such a resistance to them and

0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 6>an unwillingness to apply them as they should. I think

0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:52.920
<v Speaker 6>Sherilyn Eiffel, the former director BET and WAZP Legal Defense Fund,

0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:56.360
<v Speaker 6>I think She described this someone recently as a fear

0:28:56.480 --> 0:29:00.360
<v Speaker 6>of the fourteenth Amendment. That people are afraid of how

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:03.840
<v Speaker 6>radical and how good the amendments are, which is why

0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:06.400
<v Speaker 6>we haven't seen them apply it as they should be.

0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:13.719
<v Speaker 1>It really is this fear of giving everyone the same right. Yeah, no,

0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:18.160
<v Speaker 1>I think that's correct. We are in this insane Supreme

0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Court season. It is almost June, which is like the

0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:24.040
<v Speaker 1>month I dread the most because time of the year,

0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:27.360
<v Speaker 1>you know they're going to just do insane stuff. I

0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:29.960
<v Speaker 1>do feel like sometimes I'll have one decision come out

0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:32.440
<v Speaker 1>and you'll be like, this isn't so bad, and then

0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:35.440
<v Speaker 1>you know the next one is going to be like

0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:37.479
<v Speaker 1>just shockingly bad.

0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:40.520
<v Speaker 6>Don't you feel like that's kind of what happened. Oh, definitely,

0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:44.000
<v Speaker 6>if I'm remembering correctly, I think that one of the

0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:48.960
<v Speaker 6>positive gay rights decisions a decade and change ago came

0:29:49.000 --> 0:29:51.280
<v Speaker 6>out like right around the same time as one of

0:29:51.320 --> 0:29:54.200
<v Speaker 6>the worst voting rest decisions, and I really felt like

0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:56.480
<v Speaker 6>the Court was sitting in chambers and was like, all right,

0:29:56.560 --> 0:29:58.200
<v Speaker 6>you know, we'll get them a little on this one,

0:29:58.520 --> 0:30:01.640
<v Speaker 6>but we'll hold this one back, like we'll do a

0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:04.880
<v Speaker 6>little tradz ease and hopefully we can keep things calm

0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:08.440
<v Speaker 6>if they have one ruling. We have Flaggate for Alito.

0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:13.840
<v Speaker 1>We have January six Gate for Thomas and his wife's involvement,

0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:18.040
<v Speaker 1>and stop this deal. These are two pretty large things.

0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:21.720
<v Speaker 1>They have been asked to recuse. Neither will recuse.

0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:25.480
<v Speaker 6>I mean, were you a u United States senator, what

0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:29.360
<v Speaker 6>would you do here? M It's an interesting question. I mean,

0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:32.640
<v Speaker 6>if I were a United States Senator, I would have

0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:37.880
<v Speaker 6>them hauled to Congress. Yeah, I think I would be Yeah,

0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:40.360
<v Speaker 6>I would be holding hearings. And if they refuse to

0:30:40.360 --> 0:30:42.520
<v Speaker 6>be hauled to Congress, I would show up at their door.

0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:46.480
<v Speaker 6>That's all I would play it. It's very clear that

0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:51.120
<v Speaker 6>the Supreme Court, particularly the far right members of the

0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:54.680
<v Speaker 6>Supreme Court, think that they're untouchable, of which there are

0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:58.160
<v Speaker 6>five right, but there are two who are old. Yes,

0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:01.160
<v Speaker 6>there's a super majority of them, and two in particular

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:03.400
<v Speaker 6>who are just wildin ow at a class of their own.

0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:07.360
<v Speaker 6>And I think that the reason why they do that

0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:11.480
<v Speaker 6>is because they believe they can. They believe nothing is

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:13.520
<v Speaker 6>going to happen to them, They're not going to face

0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:17.880
<v Speaker 6>any consequences, and so it's incumbent on the other branches

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:22.760
<v Speaker 6>of government to impose consequences and to exercise its powers

0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:27.800
<v Speaker 6>to perform the court and also exercise basic accountability and oversight.

0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Let's just play pretend here. Let's say that Joe Biden wins,

0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:35.800
<v Speaker 1>they keep the Senate, and they flip the House.

0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:39.200
<v Speaker 6>Okay, say there's a trifecta. Yes, go along with me.

0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:41.840
<v Speaker 1>What should Joe Biden do about the Supreme Court? And

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 1>by the way, he's not going to want to, But

0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:47.440
<v Speaker 1>what would you if you were there? What would you

0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:50.480
<v Speaker 1>tell him to do? And how would you solve a

0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:52.160
<v Speaker 1>problem like the Supreme Court?

0:31:52.440 --> 0:31:54.840
<v Speaker 6>In an ideal world, if you had all of those

0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:58.400
<v Speaker 6>tools available, like you said, both Chambers of Congress and

0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:01.880
<v Speaker 6>have the White House a clear chance you have to

0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:06.680
<v Speaker 6>take to implement structural reforms. That's where you can do

0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:12.560
<v Speaker 6>things like expanding the court, establishing term limits, implementing an actual,

0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:16.360
<v Speaker 6>binding and forcible code of ethics. That's a chance you

0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:20.200
<v Speaker 6>could be reconsidering what kinds of cases the Court easie

0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.280
<v Speaker 6>has jurisdiction over. I would also add, and this is

0:32:23.680 --> 0:32:26.520
<v Speaker 6>what I really talk about in my book, that in

0:32:26.520 --> 0:32:29.560
<v Speaker 6>addition to changing, I'm talking about like what the court

0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:32.440
<v Speaker 6>looks like, what the core is capable of doing, and

0:32:32.480 --> 0:32:35.760
<v Speaker 6>in the book I lean into how the Court should

0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:38.720
<v Speaker 6>do what it does, because we talked a little about

0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:43.959
<v Speaker 6>originalism earlier as being this nonsensical way the Court uses

0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:47.680
<v Speaker 6>to justify as decisions. But even if the Court did

0:32:47.800 --> 0:32:51.560
<v Speaker 6>have three more, four more, shoot five more and justic

0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:55.440
<v Speaker 6>sys tomorrow, they would still need guidance on what to

0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:58.920
<v Speaker 6>do beyond not that. Something I try to do in

0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:03.080
<v Speaker 6>the book is l out this vision of what courts

0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:07.320
<v Speaker 6>should be doing a different model of interpretation, and also

0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:09.200
<v Speaker 6>calling on the public to be a part of that

0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:12.880
<v Speaker 6>as well. In the same way that we saw jurisprudence

0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:16.400
<v Speaker 6>shift so rapidly in all of these types of issues

0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:19.720
<v Speaker 6>that we care about. It's extremely demoralizing on one hand,

0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:21.480
<v Speaker 6>but I think on the other hand, it should be

0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:25.360
<v Speaker 6>a reminder that change is possible and that people make

0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:28.320
<v Speaker 6>change possible. These are things that we should be very

0:33:28.360 --> 0:33:33.320
<v Speaker 6>attuned to and demand that the Court interpret the Constitution

0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:35.640
<v Speaker 6>in a different way. And I think that's something that

0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:39.800
<v Speaker 6>the elected branches like Congress and the Executive, if they

0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:42.120
<v Speaker 6>can make a point of that as well. They too

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.800
<v Speaker 6>have a role in saying what they think the Constitution

0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:49.040
<v Speaker 6>means and what they think the right way of interpreting

0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:51.800
<v Speaker 6>the Constitution is. It wouldn't be the first time that

0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:53.840
<v Speaker 6>Congress or the President did that, and I'm sure it

0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:57.480
<v Speaker 6>won't be the last either. But we've seen recently the

0:33:57.560 --> 0:34:02.160
<v Speaker 6>Supreme Court accumulate more and more power and acting as

0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:05.680
<v Speaker 6>if it has this exclusive domain to have any say

0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:08.200
<v Speaker 6>over what the law means. And I think that the

0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:12.399
<v Speaker 6>public and elected officials all need to say that. I'll

0:34:12.440 --> 0:34:15.280
<v Speaker 6>have to say not so and put forth a different

0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:20.160
<v Speaker 6>idea of thinking about the Constitution instead. So interesting, so important.

0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:23.560
<v Speaker 1>Just to really appreciate you and the work you're doing

0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 1>at the Brennan Center.

0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:28.400
<v Speaker 6>So thanks for coming on. Thank you. Yeah, I was

0:34:28.880 --> 0:34:31.840
<v Speaker 6>at the Brennan Center in a previous list. I'm currently

0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 6>the deputy editor and senior contributor at Balls and Strikes.

0:34:35.800 --> 0:34:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's Balls and Strikes. We love Balls and Strikes.

0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:40.239
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for coming on.

0:34:40.640 --> 0:34:43.319
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, thank you.

0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Steve Brell is the founder of NewsGuard and author of

0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:49.880
<v Speaker 1>the Death of Truth. How social media in the Internet

0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:55.600
<v Speaker 1>gave snake oil salesmen and demigogs the weapons they needed

0:34:55.840 --> 0:34:59.000
<v Speaker 1>to destroy trust and polarize the world, and what we

0:34:59.080 --> 0:35:01.279
<v Speaker 1>can do. Welcome ast politics.

0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:04.160
<v Speaker 3>Steve Brell, thank you, glad to be here.

0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:07.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm very excited to have you because you have such

0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:11.800
<v Speaker 1>an interesting story and you have done so many cool things.

0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Can we do a minute or two on Court TV?

0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:18.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean we absolutely should, because I'll tell you,

0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:21.920
<v Speaker 3>it drives me nuts that there aren't cameras in the

0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:22.680
<v Speaker 3>Trump corporate.

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.719
<v Speaker 1>Explain to us how you started Court TV. How that happened.

0:35:27.080 --> 0:35:28.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm quite interested.

0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:32.319
<v Speaker 3>Well, I was running a legal publication that I had

0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:36.240
<v Speaker 3>started years before, called The American Lawyer, which was for lawyers,

0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:40.439
<v Speaker 3>and it was quite successful, and a bunch of publishers

0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:45.080
<v Speaker 3>Conde Nassharst, the New York Times had come to me

0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:48.919
<v Speaker 3>and said, why don't you start a consumer magazine about law?

0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:51.400
<v Speaker 3>And every time I thought about it, I thought it

0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:55.319
<v Speaker 3>was really a stupid idea because the only thing you

0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:58.399
<v Speaker 3>would do would be you cover true crime stuff, which

0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:01.200
<v Speaker 3>I thought would just get really sleazy, or you would

0:36:01.239 --> 0:36:03.680
<v Speaker 3>do things like what to do when You're arrested for

0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:07.080
<v Speaker 3>drunk driving and going to buy a magazine about what

0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:09.879
<v Speaker 3>to do when you're arrested for drunk driving except at

0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:11.839
<v Speaker 3>two or three in the morning on a Saturday night,

0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:14.320
<v Speaker 3>when you get pulled up a cop and there is

0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:18.040
<v Speaker 3>in a magazine store open. But I did think because

0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:20.360
<v Speaker 3>I had spent a lot of time over the years

0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:26.120
<v Speaker 3>interviewing jurors in important, high profile cases, and jurors always

0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:29.239
<v Speaker 3>came away with one thing in common, which is they

0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:32.400
<v Speaker 3>were fascinated by the system of the legal system and

0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:35.480
<v Speaker 3>had more confidence in the legal system as a result

0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:38.520
<v Speaker 3>of having served on a jury. They thought it really worked,

0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:44.080
<v Speaker 3>interesting and fascinating, even if the trial itself had its long,

0:36:44.360 --> 0:36:47.520
<v Speaker 3>boring moments. So I'm sitting in the back of a

0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:51.560
<v Speaker 3>cab one day and the cab driver has this radio

0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:54.720
<v Speaker 3>on and it's playing a sound clip from a trial

0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:59.080
<v Speaker 3>because the courts in New York had just allowed trials

0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.960
<v Speaker 3>to have, you know, audio, And I said to myself,

0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:04.400
<v Speaker 3>that's the idea, That's what I should do. And I

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.479
<v Speaker 3>went to Steve Ross, who was the chairing of Want

0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:10.240
<v Speaker 3>of Communications at the time, was someone that I knew,

0:37:10.360 --> 0:37:13.239
<v Speaker 3>and I said, I have this really crazy idea to

0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:19.200
<v Speaker 3>a combination of c span and tabloid journalism. And he said, oh,

0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.120
<v Speaker 3>you want to start a cable channel with cameras. In

0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:23.920
<v Speaker 3>the course, I said, well, how'd you know that? Anyway,

0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:26.680
<v Speaker 3>long story short, that's what we started, and the whole

0:37:26.719 --> 0:37:31.840
<v Speaker 3>idea was to show people at home what jurors were seeing.

0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:34.960
<v Speaker 3>Not a lot of spin, you know, not defendants or

0:37:35.160 --> 0:37:37.600
<v Speaker 3>lawyers you know, coming out of the courtroom and talking

0:37:37.600 --> 0:37:39.759
<v Speaker 3>about how great the day was for them or how

0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:44.160
<v Speaker 3>outrageous the judge was, but what the jury was actually

0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:47.799
<v Speaker 3>seeing in the court room, which takes us to you know,

0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:51.480
<v Speaker 3>the week we've all been experiencing where it's a major

0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:54.920
<v Speaker 3>trial going on in case you didn't know, and nobody

0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:58.319
<v Speaker 3>seeing what's happening in the courtroom. What they're seeing is

0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:02.840
<v Speaker 3>the spin that the defending is putting on what's happening courtroom.

0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:06.400
<v Speaker 3>And my belief is that no matter what the verdict is,

0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:08.919
<v Speaker 3>we're all going to be debating it, you know, from

0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:13.080
<v Speaker 3>now until forever. Whereas that debate would be different if

0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:16.120
<v Speaker 3>people were debating from the same set of facts, which

0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:19.680
<v Speaker 3>is what did the jury see and hear in the courtroom.

0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:22.600
<v Speaker 3>And the world that I now live in, which is

0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:26.600
<v Speaker 3>NewsGuard where we rate the reliability of the news and

0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:31.560
<v Speaker 3>information online, is the opposite world. It's a world where

0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:35.359
<v Speaker 3>you know, social media platforms, you have no idea what

0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:38.520
<v Speaker 3>the credentials are of the people who are to tell

0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:42.160
<v Speaker 3>you these things. It's all rumor, it's hearsay, it's made up.

0:38:42.320 --> 0:38:45.880
<v Speaker 3>Whereas in a courtroom, the witnesses are carefully screened by

0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:49.160
<v Speaker 3>the judge, they're challenged by the opposite side, you know,

0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:52.640
<v Speaker 3>what their credentials are. The evidence that's put into play

0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:56.200
<v Speaker 3>is vetted first. It's the total opposite of what you

0:38:56.280 --> 0:38:59.880
<v Speaker 3>see online. So that's why I'm really frustrated that the

0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:03.719
<v Speaker 3>world hasn't been able to see what happened in the courtroom,

0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:06.280
<v Speaker 3>and it's just going to debate it, you know, endlessly,

0:39:06.360 --> 0:39:09.279
<v Speaker 3>without having seen it, and without having seen what the

0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:11.400
<v Speaker 3>jury saw when they made their decisions.

0:39:11.560 --> 0:39:14.359
<v Speaker 1>I could not agree with you more. And in fact,

0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:17.200
<v Speaker 1>every time I talk to anyone who's in that courtroom,

0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:20.319
<v Speaker 1>I always say, like, you know, people say, well, I

0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:22.600
<v Speaker 1>was in the overflow room, I wasn't in the courtroom,

0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:25.120
<v Speaker 1>and I was like, I think being able to see

0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:29.160
<v Speaker 1>the jury, I mean, like, how are they responding to

0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:32.840
<v Speaker 1>the witnesses Like that seems so relevant to me.

0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:36.400
<v Speaker 3>Well, even more so than the jury, the witnesses themselves.

0:39:36.440 --> 0:39:39.920
<v Speaker 3>I mean, the whole constitutional idea of being able to

0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:45.600
<v Speaker 3>confront your accuser is that the defendant, and the public

0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:48.399
<v Speaker 3>has a right to see what happens in a court.

0:39:48.719 --> 0:39:52.960
<v Speaker 3>One hundred years ago, courtrooms were built with giant places

0:39:52.960 --> 0:39:55.200
<v Speaker 3>for the audience. You know, it used to be the

0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:58.480
<v Speaker 3>courtroom was the center of town and people would go

0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:02.480
<v Speaker 3>to town and go in to the courtroom and watch the trial.

0:40:02.800 --> 0:40:05.759
<v Speaker 3>So a camera there is simply a substitute for that.

0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:06.200
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:40:06.239 --> 0:40:08.840
<v Speaker 3>You don't have to have lights and noise or anything.

0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:12.759
<v Speaker 3>It's just one unobtrusive camera. In fact, that courtroom, if

0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:15.399
<v Speaker 3>it's like most other courtrooms in the United States, has

0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:17.600
<v Speaker 3>a security camera there already. You woudn't even have to

0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:20.239
<v Speaker 3>put a camera there, it's already there. But anyway, it's

0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:23.160
<v Speaker 3>the it's the opposite of the world that I now

0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:26.279
<v Speaker 3>live in. And that world you know, as you know,

0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:29.200
<v Speaker 3>is captured in the book that I've written, which is

0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 3>The Death of Truth. And the Death of Truth is

0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:35.919
<v Speaker 3>really about the fact that people debate opinions and they

0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:38.600
<v Speaker 3>don't work from the same set of facts.

0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:42.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and this is something that I am obsessed with.

0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:45.960
<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I noticed is where this

0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:49.680
<v Speaker 1>enormous country, three hundred and thirty three hundred and fifty

0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:54.040
<v Speaker 1>million people, maybe twenty million people read the newspaper, maybe

0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:59.200
<v Speaker 1>last where and you know some percentage, watch cable news,

0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:03.000
<v Speaker 1>watch local. Where are the three hundred million other people

0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:03.840
<v Speaker 1>getting their news?

0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:09.360
<v Speaker 3>TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, all the places you arguably would not

0:41:09.520 --> 0:41:13.800
<v Speaker 3>want people to get news, and on those platforms. Everything

0:41:13.920 --> 0:41:17.680
<v Speaker 3>is a matter of opinion. Everything is debated. My book

0:41:17.719 --> 0:41:21.319
<v Speaker 3>opens with a story from thirty years ago when our

0:41:21.440 --> 0:41:24.200
<v Speaker 3>daughter was in the sixth or seventh grade at a

0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:27.759
<v Speaker 3>private school in Manhattan, and it was a parent's visiting day,

0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:29.960
<v Speaker 3>and we're staying in the back of the room and

0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:32.919
<v Speaker 3>the teacher asked one of the kids, luckily not my daughter,

0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:36.000
<v Speaker 3>how much is six times seven? And the kid says

0:41:36.120 --> 0:41:42.919
<v Speaker 3>it's forty one, And the teacher says, I disagree. Disagreeable. Well,

0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:46.040
<v Speaker 3>that is the state of the world today. We disagree

0:41:46.280 --> 0:41:49.280
<v Speaker 3>over who got the most votes. We disagree over whether

0:41:49.360 --> 0:41:53.000
<v Speaker 3>the COVID vaccine is killing people or not killing people.

0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:56.279
<v Speaker 3>Fifty one percent of all the people in the United

0:41:56.320 --> 0:42:00.000
<v Speaker 3>States who refused to get vaccinated for COVID fifty one percent,

0:42:00.000 --> 0:42:02.360
<v Speaker 3>saying up those people in them were high percentage. It

0:42:02.520 --> 0:42:06.319
<v Speaker 3>was something like twenty five percent of adults refused to

0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:10.640
<v Speaker 3>get vaccine. More than half of them believed that Bill

0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:14.560
<v Speaker 3>Gates had planned it a microchip in the vaccine in

0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:18.839
<v Speaker 3>order to control their minds. Fifty one percent. Just as

0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:21.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, a very high percentage of Republicans and in

0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:26.120
<v Speaker 3>fact the country don't believe that Trump lost the last election.

0:42:26.640 --> 0:42:28.480
<v Speaker 3>One of the seats in my book that I just

0:42:28.560 --> 0:42:31.600
<v Speaker 3>keep coming back to is I wrote a story just

0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:37.440
<v Speaker 3>before the twenty sixteen election about Trump University. Remember Trump University,

0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:41.120
<v Speaker 3>You know it was a total fraud. For thirty five

0:42:41.200 --> 0:42:43.680
<v Speaker 3>thousand dollars, you were going to learn the secrets of

0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:48.239
<v Speaker 3>Trump's real estate genius. And everybody who enrolled. There are

0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:51.800
<v Speaker 3>lots of people who envolved decided the thirty five thousand

0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:54.239
<v Speaker 3>dollars later they had learned nothing and the whole thing

0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:57.239
<v Speaker 3>was a scam, and they sued they were about to

0:42:57.360 --> 0:43:00.839
<v Speaker 3>win when Trump was settled by basically giving them all.

0:43:00.760 --> 0:43:01.479
<v Speaker 2>Their money back.

0:43:01.680 --> 0:43:04.919
<v Speaker 3>This is just before the election. Well, I found two

0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:07.840
<v Speaker 3>of the plainers. These are people who swore out the complaint,

0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:10.880
<v Speaker 3>who said they would defrauded, and they were a retired

0:43:10.960 --> 0:43:14.280
<v Speaker 3>couple who had spent their last thirty five thousand dollars

0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:18.160
<v Speaker 3>us on university. And I'm talking to them, and they're

0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:20.239
<v Speaker 3>telling you about how awful this was. And then sort

0:43:20.280 --> 0:43:22.560
<v Speaker 3>of just as an afterthought, this is just before the election.

0:43:22.800 --> 0:43:24.560
<v Speaker 3>I said, well, you know, I guess you're not going

0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:27.359
<v Speaker 3>to vote for Trump and they said, oh no, we're

0:43:27.440 --> 0:43:29.320
<v Speaker 3>voting for it. I said, what are you talking about.

0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:32.160
<v Speaker 3>You know, you swore in a document that he defrauded you.

0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:34.440
<v Speaker 3>And they said, yeah, well we since you know, we've

0:43:34.520 --> 0:43:37.400
<v Speaker 3>learned on social media. And he said he really didn't

0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:39.920
<v Speaker 3>have anything to do with that university. He lent his

0:43:40.000 --> 0:43:42.239
<v Speaker 3>name into it, but you know, he really wasn't part

0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:44.800
<v Speaker 3>of it, and he's a good guy and he's really

0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:47.120
<v Speaker 3>going to fight for us. These are people who were

0:43:47.200 --> 0:43:50.200
<v Speaker 3>swindled by it, who were voting for it. And the

0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:53.600
<v Speaker 3>other incident like that, which I think demonstrates that there

0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:56.719
<v Speaker 3>is the death of truth, is there's a patient in

0:43:56.760 --> 0:44:00.680
<v Speaker 3>a hospital who's on a respirator. He's breathing his last

0:44:00.960 --> 0:44:04.840
<v Speaker 3>breaths because he has COVID, and just as he's about

0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.880
<v Speaker 3>to die, he takes the respirator off and says to

0:44:08.040 --> 0:44:11.399
<v Speaker 3>his doctor, this COVID thing is all bullshit. Now Here's

0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:15.000
<v Speaker 3>doesn't even believe his own lungs. He thinks that COVID

0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:17.520
<v Speaker 3>is a matter of opinion. You think there's COVID. I

0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:21.120
<v Speaker 3>don't think there's COVID. There's no fact, there's no shared

0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:22.440
<v Speaker 3>set of facts.

0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:25.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I agree. I mean it's just such an

0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:29.480
<v Speaker 1>insane moment in American life. So what do you think

0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:30.759
<v Speaker 1>this solve is for this?

0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:34.400
<v Speaker 3>There are a couple of solves in different areas. On

0:44:34.440 --> 0:44:39.840
<v Speaker 3>the technology front. The two biggest inventions were advances in

0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:42.799
<v Speaker 3>technology that have to do with information. First of the

0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:46.759
<v Speaker 3>social media platforms, which were given an exemption from any

0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:50.120
<v Speaker 3>liability before they were social media platforms. This was a

0:44:50.200 --> 0:44:53.240
<v Speaker 3>law passed in called Section two thirty, which was part

0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:57.600
<v Speaker 3>of a massive telecommunications reform law in nineteen ninety six,

0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:01.120
<v Speaker 3>and it was really aimed at giving what were then

0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:05.400
<v Speaker 3>America Online and Prodigy and Compuser, which are three companies

0:45:05.440 --> 0:45:06.520
<v Speaker 3>you may not have ever heard of.

0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:11.000
<v Speaker 1>We're actually compuserved years all with Jesse and I.

0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:14.399
<v Speaker 3>They got exempted from liability if someone went into one

0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:17.880
<v Speaker 3>of their chat rooms related to finance or sports or

0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:22.279
<v Speaker 3>you know whatever and said something, you know, defamatory. So

0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:26.520
<v Speaker 3>the idea was to protect them from that kind of liability,

0:45:27.040 --> 0:45:29.680
<v Speaker 3>but had nothing to do with the social media platforms

0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:33.279
<v Speaker 3>as we now know them, who are exempt from any liability.

0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:35.520
<v Speaker 3>But it turns out, as I explained in the book,

0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:38.239
<v Speaker 3>you don't have to amend the Walk. Congress doesn't have

0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.879
<v Speaker 3>to do anything because right now, Molly, when we get

0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:44.360
<v Speaker 3>off this conversation, you go to your Facebook account or

0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:47.120
<v Speaker 3>your Twitter account and look at the terms of service.

0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:52.080
<v Speaker 3>The terms of service say that Facebook will not tolerate

0:45:52.520 --> 0:46:00.319
<v Speaker 3>harmful misinformation or disinformation or other harmful speech, bullying, hates, etc.

0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:02.640
<v Speaker 3>They say, we will not tolerate it. That's a term

0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:05.960
<v Speaker 3>of service. That's a contract. They are not living up

0:46:05.960 --> 0:46:09.239
<v Speaker 3>to their contract. The FTC or you as an individual,

0:46:09.280 --> 0:46:11.879
<v Speaker 3>but the FTC on behalf of you and everybody else

0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:15.680
<v Speaker 3>today could sue them for violating their terms of service.

0:46:16.000 --> 0:46:19.520
<v Speaker 3>The terms of service don't say, well, we don't like

0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:23.200
<v Speaker 3>misinformation and disinformation, we don't like hate speech, but you

0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:27.239
<v Speaker 3>know so many people post online to us that we

0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:29.279
<v Speaker 3>really can't. You know, we don't want to cut into

0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:33.040
<v Speaker 3>our profit margins by limiting people can post or by

0:46:33.160 --> 0:46:36.400
<v Speaker 3>hiring more people to screen it. So it's just going

0:46:36.480 --> 0:46:38.759
<v Speaker 3>to get through. The terms of service doesn't say that.

0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:42.440
<v Speaker 3>It says we don't tolerate it, and that's a promise

0:46:42.480 --> 0:46:45.040
<v Speaker 3>they are not keeping, and that promise is a contract.

0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:47.319
<v Speaker 3>So that's one thing you could do. The second thing

0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:52.280
<v Speaker 3>has to do with another technological advance, which is programmatic advertise.

0:46:52.719 --> 0:46:57.080
<v Speaker 3>Advertising today is placed by algorithm. It's not you know

0:46:57.160 --> 0:46:59.360
<v Speaker 3>the days of mad Men where people go out to

0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:02.279
<v Speaker 3>lunch and to side. Do I want to advertise on

0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:07.120
<v Speaker 3>you know, Vanity Fair or Wired, or would I want

0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:10.759
<v Speaker 3>to be on NBC or CBS. It's all done by

0:47:10.840 --> 0:47:14.840
<v Speaker 3>algorithm with no regard for the content where the head appears,

0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:20.040
<v Speaker 3>and that has ended up financing the worst kinds of

0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:25.000
<v Speaker 3>misinformation and disinformation without the advertisers even knowing it. That's

0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:28.000
<v Speaker 3>probably the most eye opening chapter in the book, which

0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:32.040
<v Speaker 3>opens with the following, which is a couple of years ago.

0:47:32.840 --> 0:47:37.680
<v Speaker 3>Guess who the biggest single advertiser was on Spotnik, which

0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:40.880
<v Speaker 3>is the Russian uh, you know aganda hand. Guess to

0:47:40.960 --> 0:47:45.080
<v Speaker 3>the biggest advertizments Warren Buffett. Now it's not like Warren

0:47:45.080 --> 0:47:47.400
<v Speaker 3>Buffett wakes up every morning and says, how do I

0:47:47.440 --> 0:47:51.480
<v Speaker 3>send more money to Vladimir Putin? It He owns Geico,

0:47:52.160 --> 0:47:56.440
<v Speaker 3>and Geico does a programmatic advertising and a lot of

0:47:56.440 --> 0:47:58.960
<v Speaker 3>it ends up on spot Neck, it ends up on

0:47:59.120 --> 0:48:03.440
<v Speaker 3>stop the Steel sites, it ends up on COVID misinformation sites,

0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:07.120
<v Speaker 3>it ends up sites that say that the October seventh

0:48:07.200 --> 0:48:11.080
<v Speaker 3>attack was a false flag by Israel. So billions of

0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:15.480
<v Speaker 3>dollars is going to support the misinformation and disinformation that

0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:18.760
<v Speaker 3>I really outlined the look. So that's the second tech

0:48:19.160 --> 0:48:22.120
<v Speaker 3>great advance that is booberrang Dogs.

0:48:22.560 --> 0:48:25.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it sounds like some of the problem here

0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:31.440
<v Speaker 1>is that we just have a social media ecosystem that

0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:34.600
<v Speaker 1>has no content moderation, right.

0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:37.840
<v Speaker 3>And I'm not talking about content censorship, you know, far

0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:41.160
<v Speaker 3>from it. I'm talking about content moderation in the sense

0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:45.400
<v Speaker 3>that what NewsGuard does is we assess the reliability and

0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:50.279
<v Speaker 3>credibility of online sources, so if something is owned by

0:48:50.280 --> 0:48:53.160
<v Speaker 3>the Russians. I mean, we just did a report this

0:48:53.239 --> 0:48:58.839
<v Speaker 3>week that identified a Russian disinformation operative in Moscow who

0:48:59.040 --> 0:49:02.399
<v Speaker 3>used to be a sheriff in Florida but fled after

0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:05.840
<v Speaker 3>he was tided. This guy has set up one hundred

0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:10.640
<v Speaker 3>and sixty seven one hundred and sixty seven fake local

0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:14.759
<v Speaker 3>news sites in the United States that he has set up.

0:49:14.800 --> 0:49:19.080
<v Speaker 3>He's a Russian disinformation operative. Jesus and those local news

0:49:19.080 --> 0:49:24.800
<v Speaker 3>sites are feeding all kinds of Russian propaganda, pro Trump

0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:29.440
<v Speaker 3>propaganda on sites throughout the United States that are posing

0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:33.560
<v Speaker 3>as legitimate local news, so that disorients everybody. No one

0:49:33.680 --> 0:49:37.600
<v Speaker 3>knows what to believe anymore, because it's just you know,

0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:43.040
<v Speaker 3>it's a cesspool of you know, chaos and misinformation. If

0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:48.680
<v Speaker 3>the platforms had to identify who owns various sites, who

0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:49.920
<v Speaker 3>owns them, just.

0:49:50.000 --> 0:49:53.959
<v Speaker 1>That little fix might solve, right, because if you could

0:49:54.000 --> 0:49:58.080
<v Speaker 1>see something was owned by a company in Russia, right,

0:49:58.080 --> 0:49:59.840
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't that solve a lot of problems?

0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:02.319
<v Speaker 3>It would sure help, And wouldn't you like to know that?

0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:06.520
<v Speaker 1>Listen, all I do is think about why, you know,

0:50:06.600 --> 0:50:11.480
<v Speaker 1>our percentage of the country doesn't seem to be interfacing

0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:14.800
<v Speaker 1>with normal news and wondering where they've gone.

0:50:15.280 --> 0:50:18.480
<v Speaker 3>Well, just think of that couple that retired eighty year

0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:22.800
<v Speaker 3>old plus couple in New Jersey who enrolled in Trump

0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:25.880
<v Speaker 3>University and got swindled and are still voting for you.

0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Think about that.

0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:29.200
<v Speaker 3>I mean, just that is the state of you know,

0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:33.480
<v Speaker 3>the chaos of the information ecosystem. They're voting for him

0:50:33.520 --> 0:50:36.440
<v Speaker 3>because they heard online that he really wasn't responsible.

0:50:36.840 --> 0:50:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, that's so nuts. One of the things

0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:42.920
<v Speaker 1>that I've been struck by is that it feels like

0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:47.319
<v Speaker 1>the government really fell down on regulation. You clearly have

0:50:47.400 --> 0:50:48.960
<v Speaker 1>thought about this more than I have.

0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:51.680
<v Speaker 3>No I think it's more the private sector. I mean,

0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:54.040
<v Speaker 3>you know, I don't want the government regulating speech, but

0:50:54.120 --> 0:50:58.520
<v Speaker 3>I want the government to regulate in a content neutral

0:50:58.520 --> 0:51:02.239
<v Speaker 3>way what people know about speech, the informat what they

0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:05.000
<v Speaker 3>know about their sources of information. And I want the

0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:08.719
<v Speaker 3>government to regulate the way they typically do when when

0:51:08.760 --> 0:51:12.440
<v Speaker 3>a private company, you know, promises that you're going to

0:51:12.520 --> 0:51:15.680
<v Speaker 3>have a safe experience with their product, that they keep

0:51:15.719 --> 0:51:18.920
<v Speaker 3>that promise. I mean, Elon Musk right now, would not

0:51:19.040 --> 0:51:21.920
<v Speaker 3>be allowed to say that so many people want to

0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:24.400
<v Speaker 3>buy a Tesla that he has to step up production.

0:51:24.800 --> 0:51:27.320
<v Speaker 3>And stepping up production, he's not going to have time

0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:30.400
<v Speaker 3>to mess around with pesky things like air bags and

0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:33.560
<v Speaker 3>seat belts, because you know that slows down production and

0:51:33.640 --> 0:51:35.839
<v Speaker 3>costs more money. They would never let him do that.

0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:38.080
<v Speaker 3>But look at what they let him do on his

0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:39.200
<v Speaker 3>social media pledge.

0:51:39.600 --> 0:51:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because there's no government regulation right.

0:51:42.600 --> 0:51:45.319
<v Speaker 3>Right, there's no government regulation, And in the case of

0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:49.440
<v Speaker 3>advertisers who are supporting it, they have done nothing, almost

0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:53.160
<v Speaker 3>nothing but to worry about where their ads appear, and

0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:55.640
<v Speaker 3>all of that has happened in a world in which

0:51:55.640 --> 0:51:58.520
<v Speaker 3>where if you have you know, partisan gerrymandering. I know

0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:01.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm coming off the subject, but if you have partisan

0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:05.640
<v Speaker 3>gerrymandering and a primary system in most states where the

0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:09.719
<v Speaker 3>Republicans you know, fire to be the furthest right Republican

0:52:09.800 --> 0:52:12.960
<v Speaker 3>and the Democrats by to be the furthest left Democrat,

0:52:13.160 --> 0:52:16.760
<v Speaker 3>you have a polarized electorate. And that is a formula

0:52:16.840 --> 0:52:19.920
<v Speaker 3>for what we have today, which is again, you know,

0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:23.160
<v Speaker 3>the death of truth. No one is signing on to

0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:25.840
<v Speaker 3>believe in a common set of facts or to believe

0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:29.839
<v Speaker 3>in you know, institutions and people. We used to believe it.

0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:32.360
<v Speaker 3>We used to believe in as a country that you know,

0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:35.920
<v Speaker 3>people you know working on election day at polling centers

0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:39.960
<v Speaker 3>were honest people, They were honest referees. Now a certain

0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:42.680
<v Speaker 3>segment of the population thinks these people are you know,

0:52:42.960 --> 0:52:46.560
<v Speaker 3>crooks or hustlers. We used to believe in doctors. Now

0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:51.480
<v Speaker 3>more people get their medical information online than they get

0:52:51.600 --> 0:52:56.000
<v Speaker 3>from you know, real doctors. We used to believe in judges.

0:52:56.640 --> 0:52:59.880
<v Speaker 3>Now you know, people being told that every judge is

0:53:00.520 --> 0:53:04.120
<v Speaker 3>on the take, is biased, is on one side of

0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:07.040
<v Speaker 3>the other. So it has undermine our belief in the

0:53:07.280 --> 0:53:12.399
<v Speaker 3>you know, in basic American institutions, whether it's medicine or elections,

0:53:12.840 --> 0:53:15.440
<v Speaker 3>everything is a matter of opinion. Who got the most votes.

0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:18.600
<v Speaker 3>That's your opinion versus someone else's. It never used to

0:53:18.600 --> 0:53:20.239
<v Speaker 3>be that way. It shouldn't be that one.

0:53:20.480 --> 0:53:23.520
<v Speaker 1>Steve Brill, thank you, thank you, thank you.

0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:25.359
<v Speaker 3>Happy to do it.

0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:30.359
<v Speaker 2>No moment, we.

0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:33.920
<v Speaker 1>Have a special surprise appearance from the one, the only,

0:53:34.080 --> 0:53:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Rick Wilson. He has come for a moment of fuckery

0:53:37.360 --> 0:53:40.239
<v Speaker 1>because everything old is new again when it comes to

0:53:40.280 --> 0:53:44.959
<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump and racial slurs. Let's get going.

0:53:45.360 --> 0:53:49.799
<v Speaker 4>We have heard this story for a decade now that

0:53:50.160 --> 0:53:53.759
<v Speaker 4>somewhere in the bowels of Mark Burnett's media empire are

0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:57.040
<v Speaker 4>the outtakes of Donald Trump saying the inWORD. Now, anyone

0:53:57.120 --> 0:53:59.920
<v Speaker 4>who doesn't think that the guy who took two weeks

0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:02.600
<v Speaker 4>denounced David Duke might not have said the inWORD. I

0:54:02.680 --> 0:54:05.360
<v Speaker 4>have many bridges to sell you. But what has happened

0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:07.480
<v Speaker 4>now is a producer who was on the team. His

0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:10.279
<v Speaker 4>NDA has expired, and because his NDIA has expired, he

0:54:10.320 --> 0:54:13.240
<v Speaker 4>is now saying, why, yes, he did say the inWORD

0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:17.160
<v Speaker 4>it's on tape. Now Mark Burnett, who is a major winger,

0:54:17.360 --> 0:54:21.239
<v Speaker 4>and his wife who was a major winger, she's a

0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:24.879
<v Speaker 4>queen Trumper. All this has added up to this really

0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:28.920
<v Speaker 4>ugly moment where the guy saying the inWORD on tape

0:54:29.000 --> 0:54:33.560
<v Speaker 4>has now had somebody, another eyewitness who was verifiably on

0:54:33.760 --> 0:54:36.319
<v Speaker 4>the show come out and say, yep, I heard it.

0:54:36.480 --> 0:54:37.719
<v Speaker 2>I heard it. He said it.

0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:41.040
<v Speaker 1>And one of the things about this particular moment of

0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:43.640
<v Speaker 1>fuck ray is that Rick and I talked to Tom

0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:48.120
<v Speaker 1>Arnold in the first season of Trump Ruining America twenty

0:54:48.200 --> 0:54:54.280
<v Speaker 1>twenty during a pandemic Trump Ruins America Season one pandemic pandemic,

0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:57.000
<v Speaker 1>and Tom Arnold told us that there was a tape

0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:00.520
<v Speaker 1>of Trump saying the N word. We were unable to

0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:02.799
<v Speaker 1>have enough sources to back that up.

0:55:02.840 --> 0:55:04.760
<v Speaker 2>We couldn't go with it because.

0:55:04.719 --> 0:55:07.800
<v Speaker 1>We weren't able to track it down. But Donald Trump

0:55:08.000 --> 0:55:10.640
<v Speaker 1>saying the N word and all of America non finding

0:55:10.680 --> 0:55:15.480
<v Speaker 1>out about it for eight years is our moment of fuckery.

0:55:15.719 --> 0:55:18.280
<v Speaker 4>That's down to you, Mark Burnett. Your moment of fuckery

0:55:18.360 --> 0:55:20.759
<v Speaker 4>has arrived. But then again, what do we know about

0:55:20.760 --> 0:55:23.720
<v Speaker 4>people in the MAGA right now? None of that stuff matters.

0:55:23.840 --> 0:55:26.680
<v Speaker 4>Only winning matters to them. I mean, Donald Trump could

0:55:26.719 --> 0:55:30.399
<v Speaker 4>say things one hundred times worse because he allegedly said

0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:33.520
<v Speaker 4>on the tape, how will America feel about the inward

0:55:33.600 --> 0:55:36.520
<v Speaker 4>winning or a inward winning? I mean, I don't care.

0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:39.040
<v Speaker 4>I promise you they will go through the normal phases

0:55:39.080 --> 0:55:41.680
<v Speaker 4>of trump Ism. It's a lie by the mainstream media. No,

0:55:41.840 --> 0:55:44.959
<v Speaker 4>it never happened. No, he never said that. No, Joe

0:55:44.960 --> 0:55:47.160
<v Speaker 4>Biden's the one who actually said that they're going to

0:55:47.200 --> 0:55:50.200
<v Speaker 4>do the whole thing they always do. And of course

0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:52.560
<v Speaker 4>we'll end up getting headlines in the Times in places

0:55:52.640 --> 0:55:55.000
<v Speaker 4>like both Trump and Biden have faced racial issues.

0:55:56.040 --> 0:56:01.520
<v Speaker 1>Rick Wilson, thanks anytime. That's it for this episode of

0:56:01.560 --> 0:56:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to

0:56:05.400 --> 0:56:08.279
<v Speaker 1>hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all

0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:11.879
<v Speaker 1>this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send

0:56:11.880 --> 0:56:15.000
<v Speaker 1>it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again,

0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:16.200
<v Speaker 1>thanks for listening.