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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson. Okay, Megan Divine. I love

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Speaker 1: that last name, Divine. Thank you. It's very fancy of you.

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Speaker 1: It is very fancy. It's very fancy of the immigration

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Speaker 1: officials when my great grandparents emigrated from Irolent. Yes. Wow,

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Speaker 1: they haven't really thought highly of your great grand here. Well,

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Speaker 1: you are a psychotherapist and author. Um. The book is

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Speaker 1: called It's Okay to Not Be Okay. And I was

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Speaker 1: just telling you I really feel like our society comes

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Speaker 1: into grief in a place that like we don't want

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Speaker 1: to deal and so, um, you know, I've done a

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Speaker 1: lot of my own personal work where I've been taught

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Speaker 1: to really try to walk through the pain to get

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Speaker 1: to the other side, and I think that's been so

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Speaker 1: important for my personal healing. And I was just researching

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Speaker 1: a lot on your Instagram and that seems to be

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Speaker 1: in line with sort of what you think. But I

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Speaker 1: want to start with basics and then kind of work

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Speaker 1: through work our way up through that so people can

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Speaker 1: understand the importance of working through grief and all of

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Speaker 1: those things. So can you? Is there like a basic

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Speaker 1: definition for grief that you could even give. I was

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Speaker 1: thinking here this, Yeah, I mean that any any definition

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Speaker 1: is going to be too small and reductive, because it's like,

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Speaker 1: what's a definition of love? Mm hmm? Right, because grief

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Speaker 1: is part of love, right, whether we're talking about grieving

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Speaker 1: the death of somebody or a divorce or a separation,

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Speaker 1: or honestly, like grief from losing a job or a

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Speaker 1: way of life or a physical body function like m

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Speaker 1: Grief is the set of emotions that you experience when

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Speaker 1: you lose someone or something that means something to you, right,

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Speaker 1: And again, like that's me reaching for a definition, and

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Speaker 1: you know it's it's I think that correlation there of

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Speaker 1: like let's define love, well, what kind of love do

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Speaker 1: you mean? Do you mean romantic? Do you mean familiar?

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Speaker 1: Do you mean like I love a good burrito? Like?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean? And and again it's like grief,

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Speaker 1: grief is part of the human condition. It it hurts

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Speaker 1: to be alive, right, And I think this is the big,

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Speaker 1: the big starting point here is that grief is a

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Speaker 1: normal human emotion. It happens all the time in big

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Speaker 1: ways and small ways, and as individuals and as a

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Speaker 1: wider culture. We don't deal with that very well, right, both,

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Speaker 1: Why why is the big million dollars a million dollar quest? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So longer long answers and short answers here. So there's

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Speaker 1: a long history of avoiding grief, right, And by long history,

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Speaker 1: I mean we're talking back not just fifty years, but

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Speaker 1: we're talking centuries. And if you think about it, right,

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Speaker 1: So let's center let's center on loss related to us

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Speaker 1: here for a minute, because it makes it makes this

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Speaker 1: make more sense. Losing someone you love, someone you love dies,

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Speaker 1: they disappear, they're no longer there. That is a really

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Speaker 1: that sets off a really big series of emotions and

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Speaker 1: it's really uncomfortable. Right. But rather than fully let in

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Speaker 1: the reality that every single person you love or being

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Speaker 1: you love will die, that is really hard knowledge to

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Speaker 1: sit with. And so the sort of equal and opposite

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Speaker 1: reaction there is like, I don't want to feel this

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Speaker 1: big feeling, So how can I manage it? How can

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Speaker 1: I control it? How can I shut it down? How

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Speaker 1: can I um pretend that everything is okay in order

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Speaker 1: to manage the unpredictable, uncontrollable nature of life. Life is

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Speaker 1: unpredictable and uncontrollable. You can do everything right and your

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Speaker 1: baby still dies. You can eat your vegetables, take your vitamins,

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Speaker 1: drinking of water and still get diagnosed with terminal cancer

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Speaker 1: when you're twenty one. Right, life is not under our control,

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Speaker 1: and that is a very hard thing to acknowledge, to

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Speaker 1: let in. It is much easier in air quotes. Here

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Speaker 1: I'll can't see me do air quotes, but as much

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Speaker 1: easier to say, bad things will not happen if I

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Speaker 1: do X, Y and Z, and if something bad happens anyway,

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Speaker 1: I can control my feelings so that that sadness and

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Speaker 1: that grief will not consume me. Right, we are way

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Speaker 1: more afraid of grief than we are of death, which

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Speaker 1: is a sort of weird thing to say, but if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, you can sort of in an

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Speaker 1: abstract analytical sense, you can understand, like, okay, I will

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Speaker 1: die eventually. Let me do my advanced advanced directives in

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Speaker 1: my end of life planning and all of those things

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Speaker 1: so that I can get those ducks in a row. Fine,

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Speaker 1: you can be sort of analytical about that. But if

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Speaker 1: you switch that and you look at your best friend

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Speaker 1: or your sister and you say they could die anytime.

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Speaker 1: That is a much harder reality to get in, and

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Speaker 1: humans will literally do anything to keep from feeling that

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Speaker 1: future absence. Right. It really sort of sets up this

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Speaker 1: UM sort of one false move world where you you

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Speaker 1: have to work really hard to UM to not get

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Speaker 1: the short end of the stick, right, Like, bad things

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Speaker 1: won't happen to me if I do all of these

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Speaker 1: things correctly, and this need to reduce grief to this

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Speaker 1: five simple steps or seven stages or um you should

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Speaker 1: be back to happy within six weeks, or there's something

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Speaker 1: wrong with you, like it's all this way to control

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Speaker 1: that existential anxiety of your feelings being bigger than you. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: when you just we're talking about we can handle the

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Speaker 1: idea of death over grief. That made so much sense

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Speaker 1: to me simply because there have been times in my

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Speaker 1: life when the grief is so immense that I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm dying but I'm alive, and you almost are

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Speaker 1: like I just wish I was dead because this is

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Speaker 1: so encompassing, it is so overwhelming. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: feel these things. And since I've gone through such a

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Speaker 1: bad period of that before, I find myself now I'm

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Speaker 1: relating the death equation to relationships. For me, it's like

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Speaker 1: I need to do all of these things and be

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Speaker 1: hyper alert, hyper aware so this relationship doesn't end and

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Speaker 1: I feel that pain again because I'm like, I can't

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Speaker 1: go through that again, you know. So do you see

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Speaker 1: people just constantly trying to sidestep pain, absolutely right, and

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Speaker 1: internalizing the the I guess the mechanism of action. They're

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Speaker 1: like just what you described. So in relationships, let me

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Speaker 1: make sure that I've done all of myself work. Let

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Speaker 1: me make sure that my boundaries are really here, let

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Speaker 1: me make sure that I'm communicating, let me make sure

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Speaker 1: that I'm looking for every potential yellow or red flag

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Speaker 1: in this new like fucking relentless self examination to make

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Speaker 1: sure that you are quote unquote doing it right so

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Speaker 1: that you get the right person, which has the end

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Speaker 1: result of I never have to lose someone I care

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Speaker 1: about again, right, Like what an exhausting way of greeting

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Speaker 1: the world. It's exhausting and again that whole like past fail.

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Speaker 1: Do it right and you won't ever be in pain again.

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Speaker 1: Do it wrong and you're shrewd, Like hello, how about

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Speaker 1: the breadth of human experiences? Actually, between those two poles. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think this is all in the framing of

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Speaker 1: of what pain is, right, what grief is. It is

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Speaker 1: not a punishment for doing it wrong. Right sometimes relationships

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Speaker 1: And I had a partner once say you know, our

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Speaker 1: relationship has been really successful us because it only lasted

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Speaker 1: three months doesn't mean it wasn't successful. Right, So this

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Speaker 1: like reframing of what what does success mean in love?

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Speaker 1: What does success mean in related nous? What does success

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Speaker 1: mean if we want to bring this back into the

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Speaker 1: end of life, death, dying, that sort of thing, like

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Speaker 1: what does success look like for a terminal diagnosis like cancer? Right,

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Speaker 1: success doesn't always mean you beat that cancer and you live.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it means I met this period of my life

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Speaker 1: with grace and with compassion for myself, with a deepening

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Speaker 1: of the relationships that surround me. Right, If we are

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Speaker 1: not looking to the erasure of all pain as our

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Speaker 1: success metric, we can start looking at the things that

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Speaker 1: actually make life better, which is better relationships, better connections,

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Speaker 1: better advocacy for ourselves and for others. Like, if you

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Speaker 1: stop trying to ward it off all pain, you get

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Speaker 1: to have life, which is kind of cool. Um, As

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to that that I'm like, but how do

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Speaker 1: you get past the fear? Because if the pain is

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Speaker 1: so great, why would we ever want to sign up

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Speaker 1: for that? Again? Yeah, it's a super good question, right,

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Speaker 1: and really really valid. So again, like we're talking relationships,

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Speaker 1: we're also talking death, right, right. If you think about like, um,

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Speaker 1: you know you have an intense experience of loss where

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Speaker 1: your you know, your brother died or your mom died

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Speaker 1: or your partner died. Knowing what that experience is like,

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Speaker 1: it's really tempting to say I never want to get

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Speaker 1: close to anyone because it's not worth it. And honestly

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Speaker 1: that's valid. That's valid. I'm never going to tell you,

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Speaker 1: you know, suck it up and don't do that, because

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Speaker 1: every response that you make in your own grief, as

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Speaker 1: long as you're not harming others, is valid. Right. We

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Speaker 1: we rush in and say like no, no, no, it

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Speaker 1: is worth it all of these things, and honestly, side note,

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Speaker 1: it is worth it. We'll get there in a second.

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Speaker 1: But I want to get into this practice of not

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Speaker 1: rushing yourself out of your of your pain impulse to

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Speaker 1: say I never want this again. Right, if you silence

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Speaker 1: that part of you too, quickly. It's just going to

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Speaker 1: keep popping up in places, so we want to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that that is a really valid response to intense pain,

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Speaker 1: to not want it again. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: my team and I have been talking about a lot

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Speaker 1: is we're noticing a theme for on like social media comments,

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Speaker 1: comments about the It's Okay book or they're writing your

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Speaker 1: grief course or any of those things where people are saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't feel brave enough to do this yet, I

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Speaker 1: don't feel brave enough to read this book. Yet, I

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Speaker 1: don't feel ready or strong enough to write about my grief.

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Speaker 1: And it reminds me of this. This phrase that I

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Speaker 1: hear a lot and have heard a lot for for

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Speaker 1: a long time now is I'm afraid if I start crying,

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Speaker 1: I'll never be able to stop. Right. There is this

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Speaker 1: sense of emotions will consume me, and the really unfortunate

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Speaker 1: part of that is that, um, we how do we

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Speaker 1: want to say this? It's sort of a chicken or

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Speaker 1: chicken or the egg type situation here, because the ways

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Speaker 1: that we have historically culturally dealt with big emotions like

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Speaker 1: grief m is to clean them up, put them behind.

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Speaker 1: You don't look so sad, put on a happy face,

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Speaker 1: behave as normal, get back to life, all of these

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Speaker 1: things that we that we've been trained were supposed to

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Speaker 1: do when we're sad. I think that a really big

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Speaker 1: foundational part of us knows you can't treat sadness like that.

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Speaker 1: You can't treat grief like that. It will not comply. Right.

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Speaker 1: So it makes sense when you when you start edging

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Speaker 1: towards real feeling, there's some part of your mind that says,

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Speaker 1: we have no tools for the ship, like there is

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Speaker 1: nothing except for the gaping, yawning void if I enter

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Speaker 1: this right, so X sort of makes us double back

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Speaker 1: on like, Nope, grief is a problem. Not going to

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Speaker 1: feel it, not going to do anything that might set

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Speaker 1: it off. I will love no one, I will do

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Speaker 1: nothing right. This is why it's so important to one

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Speaker 1: talk about the reality of grief, which is the reality

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Speaker 1: of love, and to talk about what we really need

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Speaker 1: inside those big emotions, which is not solutions for how

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Speaker 1: to get out of those emotions or erase those emotions,

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Speaker 1: but how do you survive inside them? What are the

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Speaker 1: tools that you need right? What are the more in there? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean this, I feel like this is sort of

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Speaker 1: the foundation of all of my work, right, like what

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Speaker 1: tools do you need? In the abyss. Most of our

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Speaker 1: cultural responses, clinical, medical responses, entertainment storyline responses to grief

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Speaker 1: are get out of that ship faster. And for me,

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Speaker 1: the real question here is what do you do when

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Speaker 1: you're in it? Right? We have to be able to

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Speaker 1: um combat combat the idea that you have to get

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Speaker 1: out of it quickly. It's like I am going to

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Speaker 1: feel these big things, I am going to feel consumed

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Speaker 1: by it. It is overwhelming. What do I do? Right?

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Speaker 1: In the book, I talk about the difference between pain

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Speaker 1: and suffering. Right, what you and I are talking about

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Speaker 1: right now is is pain. Pain just is it will

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Speaker 1: be there no matter what, right, Like losing someone you

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Speaker 1: love is hard and it hurts, just true m hm.

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Speaker 1: Suffering is all of the stuff we put on top

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Speaker 1: of ourselves and that others put on top of us

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Speaker 1: in top of that pain, like all of that questioning

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Speaker 1: that you were talking about with like ship, Like I

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Speaker 1: didn't pick the right person, I didn't do my own

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Speaker 1: self work, I wasn't clear I did this, I missed

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Speaker 1: this sign Like that is suffering, right, And that's what

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Speaker 1: sort of like twists you into knots and makes it

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Speaker 1: really really difficult to find your bearings inside the core

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Speaker 1: pain of that reality, which is something that meant something

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Speaker 1: to me. Left the relationship that I had is not

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Speaker 1: the relationship I thought I had, and that hurts. Right.

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Speaker 1: Finding ways to name the pain itself and then support

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Speaker 1: yourself inside that pain is a very different process than

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Speaker 1: trying to be a sleuth for sadness or a sleuth

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Speaker 1: for flaws in what you did to cause this or

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Speaker 1: what the other person did to cause this. Right, It's

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Speaker 1: really different. That's so good because to me, I think

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Speaker 1: a way I try to find my way out of

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Speaker 1: pain is to do exactly that. Like if I just

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Speaker 1: investigate and I figure this out, you know, I figure

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Speaker 1: out exactly what happened, or I mean, it could be anything,

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Speaker 1: it could be job related, all of these things. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think there could be grief in a lot of

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Speaker 1: different places in our lives. But if I can figure

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Speaker 1: it out, get the right answer, read enough books, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I will, you know, I'll just read the ship out

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Speaker 1: of everything around me. Um, then I can get out

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Speaker 1: of this and avoid it in the future, Like it

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Speaker 1: won't last as long and I won't go through it again,

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Speaker 1: and it's just not happening. It's not happening. And it's

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Speaker 1: not that self reflection and learning is not helpful. It

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Speaker 1: is super helpful. But let's look at why you're doing it, right.

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Speaker 1: If you're doing it to stop feeling what you're feeling

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Speaker 1: and avoid all pain forever in the future, it's not

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Speaker 1: that it's right or wrong. It's that it's ineffective, right, right,

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Speaker 1: Those are not effective approaches to grief. It's not it's

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Speaker 1: not really respectful to your own self either, right. So,

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Speaker 1: I think one great question is when you're when you're

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Speaker 1: finding yourself in that sort of inside your own inside

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Speaker 1: your own mind, is to like stop, take a beat

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Speaker 1: and ask yourself, like, you know, some some really good

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Speaker 1: questions here might be things like, oh, I'm doing that

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Speaker 1: thing where I'm in pain of some kind, and I

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Speaker 1: jump to where did I fail? And how can I

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Speaker 1: avoid this later? What would feel useful or supportive to

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Speaker 1: the way that I'm feeling right now? Right? That sounds

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Speaker 1: a little bit therapist to speak, but there's good reason

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Speaker 1: for That's because it's helpful. Right, You're interrupting that self

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Speaker 1: flagellation cycle, which is just a way to avoid pain.

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Speaker 1: But the pain is there. So let's actually name what's

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Speaker 1: going on in that situation. Is, Oh, I'm doing that thing,

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Speaker 1: doing that thing, and that means that tells me that

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Speaker 1: I'm actually feeling grief or I'm feeling pain, or I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling sadness. Right, name your own situation back to yourself,

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Speaker 1: I am feeling this, Okay, what would feel supportive in

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Speaker 1: this moment? Given that this is how I'm feeling. My

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Speaker 1: guess is when you ask yourself that question and give

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Speaker 1: yourself a second to respond, you're going to answer yourself

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Speaker 1: and it's not going to be go do some research. Right,

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Speaker 1: Just interrupting that habitual pain avoidance self flatillation is going

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Speaker 1: to be amazing. But let's go back to you know,

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Speaker 1: I write books, so I don't want people to stop

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Speaker 1: going to books for support and resources out there, boks

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Speaker 1: out there. But let's look at let's look at the

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Speaker 1: equation in your head. They're like, you can ask yourself.

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Speaker 1: Like so one of my one of my friends and colleagues,

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Speaker 1: Kate can Fail to a relationship and communication educator, has

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Speaker 1: this great question. She says, do you need a solution

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Speaker 1: or do you need support right now, and I usually

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Speaker 1: talk about that with like, as a support person, you

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Speaker 1: can ask your friend, your family member, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're listening to them talk about their feelings, to ask like,

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Speaker 1: do you need solutions and problem solving right now or

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Speaker 1: do you just need to them this ship? You can

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Speaker 1: ask yourself that question too. Is this a time where

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Speaker 1: I really need to make a decision and therefore I

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Speaker 1: need some help figuring out what the next steps are?

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Speaker 1: Or do I need space to just let this suck

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Speaker 1: right now? Do I need support around my emotions or

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Speaker 1: do I need to go into sort of logic and

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Speaker 1: analysis and find some specific tools to help me do X,

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Speaker 1: Y and Z. Right, It's like, no, what results are

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Speaker 1: you looking for? And let's like use the tools that

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Speaker 1: will get you there. Knowing that it's really tempting to

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Speaker 1: say I will find exactly the right tools so that

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Speaker 1: I stopped feeling this and will never feel it again

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Speaker 1: in the future, that is not going to happen. So

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Speaker 1: let's just name that. Yeah, you mentioned earlier at the

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Speaker 1: stages of grief and you said, you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of times I think that is how people talk about grief.

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Speaker 1: It's like you have these stages, and it can easily

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Speaker 1: get very mapped out, right, Like you go through wine,

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Speaker 1: then you go through the next one, you go through

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Speaker 1: the next. In my experience, had a mentor describe at

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Speaker 1: one time as a corkscrew, like you're not going to

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Speaker 1: just go through anger one day and then never go

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Speaker 1: through anger. Like it's not linear grief, it's it's a corkscrew,

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Speaker 1: and it's just kind of this constant rotation. Each day

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Speaker 1: can vary and you kind of don't really know. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of unpredictable. Um, can you talk through the stages

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Speaker 1: of grief and maybe how people experience those differently, how

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Speaker 1: it's not so cut and dry so that we can't

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Speaker 1: map it out or plan it out kind of like

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Yes, so first, there are no

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Speaker 1: stages of grief. Okay, we'll do a little tell us

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Speaker 1: more because what this is like the sacred that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so here's here's the thing. Everybody knows, this knows the

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Speaker 1: stages of grief. So one that like that, that points

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Speaker 1: to an excellent marketing campaign because everybody knows the stages

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Speaker 1: of grief, even if they can't remember where they first

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Speaker 1: learned them, they are everywhere So the stages of grief

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Speaker 1: were created in the sixties by Dr Elizabeth Coobler Ross,

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Speaker 1: and she created them actually in response to what she

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Speaker 1: saw with her patients who had just received a terminal diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: So originally those five things not stages. Yet those five things,

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Speaker 1: um were feelings and experiences that somebody who had just

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Speaker 1: received a terminal diagnosis might experience. They were really common things.

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Speaker 1: She never meant them to be linear, she never meant

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Speaker 1: them to be required, and she never actually applied them

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Speaker 1: to grief. She applied them to dying. There's one thing right,

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Speaker 1: like poof mind blown literally, Yeah, so what happened though

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Speaker 1: earlier you and I were talking about um, you know

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Speaker 1: how far back does this avoidance of grief and pain go?

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Speaker 1: Wherever the medical and clinical world jumped on her stages

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Speaker 1: of grief, which she meant as a comfort and a

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Speaker 1: kindness and a support to people who were facing the

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Speaker 1: end of their lives, it got twist did into this

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Speaker 1: prescriptive solution, here are these things that you will go through.

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Speaker 1: Because we really like certainty, we really like solutions. We

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Speaker 1: really like to be able to look at somebody who's

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Speaker 1: mom just died and say, you're gonna be done with

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Speaker 1: this really really soon. Right, So those five feeling states

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Speaker 1: that are common or normal, I guess I would say

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Speaker 1: these days, um for for people facing the end of

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Speaker 1: their lives, got packaged into five distinct stages that you

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Speaker 1: must go through when you are grieving. You must go

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Speaker 1: through them in order. Um And the end stage and

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Speaker 1: stage in air quotes is acceptance. And by the time

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Speaker 1: you reach acceptance, you are back to normal. Your grief

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Speaker 1: doesn't really bother. You might think of your person fondly

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Speaker 1: every once in a while, but you've moved on with

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Speaker 1: your life. Also sidebar on here, anger is one of

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Speaker 1: those stages. And unlike some of the other kinder gentler stages,

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Speaker 1: anger is one that you need to move through really

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Speaker 1: quick because it's uncomfortable for people. So like you're in

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Speaker 1: the A R phase, you need to get out of

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Speaker 1: that one and move on to acceptance, right, you know.

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Speaker 1: The one of the one of one of the many

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Speaker 1: problems with this is that you as a grieving person,

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Speaker 1: you can't win. Right If you're talking to a friend

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Speaker 1: or a family member or your neighbor over the fence

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Speaker 1: and you say, like, I just can't believe they're gone.

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Speaker 1: And they say, oh, that's the denial phase. You've got

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Speaker 1: to get through that one. Or if you have taken

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Speaker 1: off your wedding bands after your partner dies and somebody says,

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Speaker 1: don't you think you're doing that too fast? You really

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Speaker 1: need to like spend some time with you know, um

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Speaker 1: accepting it or bargaining or whatever. Like from the outside,

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Speaker 1: you're going to get so much judgment and so much

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Speaker 1: correction on where people think you are in those fictitious stages,

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Speaker 1: why you're doing things the way that you're doing and

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Speaker 1: maybe you missed a stage and you didn't do it

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Speaker 1: well enough, so now you're back at the beginning. Like

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Speaker 1: it is such garbage, and it's really cruel if we

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Speaker 1: think about grief as part of love, which I always

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Speaker 1: do because it is, you don't put love in those

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Speaker 1: kinds of stages, right love. My my favorite phrase that

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Speaker 1: I've written about the stages of grief is that they're

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Speaker 1: they're a net thrown over a fog bank, right. It's

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Speaker 1: an attempt to control, define, and corral something that is

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Speaker 1: uncontainable and undefinable. Dr Ross meant what turned into the

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Speaker 1: five stages as grief as a way to normalize a

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Speaker 1: wholly unnormal, abnormal situation. Right, she meant them as a

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Speaker 1: as a dog is voicing her support. Yes, she meant

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Speaker 1: them as a as a comfort, not a cage for people.

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Speaker 1: But because of two things. One, because however the medical

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Speaker 1: professions talk about grief, trickles down to everybody else. Right,

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Speaker 1: this is why the stages of grief are so pervasive,

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Speaker 1: because it's started with the clinical world and moved out

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Speaker 1: into pop culture and the entertainment world and all of

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Speaker 1: these things. Um. But also that desire from both the

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Speaker 1: professionals and average humans to want to feel like we

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Speaker 1: have some control. We may not be able to always

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Speaker 1: control laws, but by God's we will control grief. Right.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing is, you know, very often I'm

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Speaker 1: talking to people who want to be supportive of a

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Speaker 1: grieving friend or family member, um, and they don't know how,

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Speaker 1: and they feel helpless and stupid, or they've said something

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Speaker 1: that they think is just like, oh my gosh, I

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Speaker 1: can't believe I said that. I'm such a jerk. And

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Speaker 1: it's like, it's it's not your fault if you don't

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Speaker 1: know how to talk about grief. It's not your fault.

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Speaker 1: If you don't know how to support yourself or somebody

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Speaker 1: else who's going through grief. You have been trained in

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Speaker 1: the incorrect, ineffective ways of doing it, So it's not

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Speaker 1: your fault, and it is your responsibility to learn better, kinder,

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Speaker 1: more effective ways to navigate grief for yourself and for

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Speaker 1: others once you know that the old ways are actually

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Speaker 1: causing harm. So, speaking of old ways, have you noticed

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Speaker 1: in your practice a difference between how men and women

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Speaker 1: process grief? Because I think so much of the programming

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Speaker 1: for men, you know, back in the day was no feelings,

429
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: no emotions, that makes you weak. And so I've witnessed

430
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: a lot of men in my life really struggle when

431
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: they're in a place of grief, for instance, or any

432
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: sort of sadness and pain, and just really kind of

433
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: go to the place of avoidance more than I see

434
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: women doing. And that's a generalization obviously, but sure, sure,

435
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: I mean, any any descriptions of gender based responses are

436
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: going to be over generalizations, um for several reasons. People

437
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: are all individuals, gender as a spectrum, all of those things.

438
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: So having said that, I think we can um sort

439
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: of drill into that a little bit. Certainly, what I

440
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: see very often is that, Um, for men and male

441
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: identified folks who are a grieving they feel like they

442
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: have to be strong for the rest of their friend

443
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: group or the rest of their families. So for for

444
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: people who have lost a child or lost a baby,

445
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: the male male or this is gonna get clunky if

446
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: I have to say this every time male or male identified,

447
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: so we're just gonna say male or men for shorthand. Um,

448
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: the man feels like he has to be strong for

449
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: the rest of the family, has to be the provider,

450
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: the you know that that night in shining Armor. Cultural

451
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: myth runs deep, right, Like you have to perform this,

452
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: You have to be there for other people. You have

453
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: to be the one that everybody leans on. Right. Parents

454
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: often feel this for their grieving kids too, But it

455
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: certainly does show up for men very often. And again

456
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: we go back to like, what does our cultural storyline say?

457
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: What does most of our entertainment say? Right, Like, the strong,

458
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: attractive male is the one who fits for certain body

459
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: type and who sits fits a certain um emotional stoicism. Right,

460
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: they are able to take charge and care for care

461
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: for people by being logical and analytical and not letting

462
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: things get them down. If we see somebody who is

463
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: showing emotion, um, that makes them somehow less masculine. Right,

464
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: It just I mean this is when we talk you know,

465
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: I talk often about like the intersections of misogyny and grief,

466
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: and that's also a fascinating topic. But we also look

467
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: at the ways that toxic masculine and um and misogyny

468
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: impacts everybody along the gender spectrum. Right, not allowing men

469
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: to share their feelings openly means that we miss the

470
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: related nous we most long for. Right if you talk

471
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: to women in in heterosexual relationships, you talk to women

472
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: and they're like, I just wish my partner would open

473
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: up to me more. Okay, the mail in that hetero

474
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: relationship here that we're talking about, the mail might be

475
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: like I wish I could talk about my feelings, but

476
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: I need to be strong here. Right, we are missing

477
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: each other. And this is true in friend groups and

478
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: family systems, all of these things. Like we're missing what

479
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: we most want, which is connection and being seen for

480
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: who we truly are. And this is a huge juggernaut

481
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: and a you know, multifaceted problem to solve in here

482
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: about like how do we kick over toxic masculinity. How

483
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: do we like make things better for everybody? And I

484
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: think this this comes back to what kind of conversations

485
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: are you having with the people in your life? Right?

486
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: How do we bring curiosity into our relationships? What that

487
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: might look like? So you know, if if you have, uh,

488
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, a male friend in your life, you can

489
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: open a conversation and say, you know, I've been thinking

490
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: a lot about grief and the way that we express

491
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: it and about how sometimes women feel differently about griefs.

492
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 1: So like, what what's grief been like for you in

493
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: your life? How do you you know? You want it

494
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,239
Speaker 1: to sound like you and not like me. But I

495
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: think you can open conversations about each person's experience of

496
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: grief in a way that starts to foster real communication

497
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: and real relatedness. Right. The way that we change the

498
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: cultural script for men around grief is starting with being

499
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: curious about men's experience in our own lives. You don't

500
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: change the culture usually from some giant, top down edict

501
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: that happens. It really does happen. Like any social change,

502
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: cultural change is person to person in relationships, being curious

503
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: about each other and being willing to not talk each

504
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 1: other out of what you say. Right, that's a super

505
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: big like habit for people. So if I'm talking to

506
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: somebody in my life and I am curious about gender

507
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: differences in the grief experience, and I asked a question about,

508
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: what's it like for you as a man. You know,

509
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: your dad just died, and um, do you feel like

510
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: it's different being a guy experience and your dad's lost

511
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: versus your sister's experience. And if they come back with like, yeah,

512
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,959
Speaker 1: I actually feel this and this, and we come back

513
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: with like, but you know what, you know, you're really

514
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: strong though, and everybody relies on you, right, Like, what

515
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: did we just do? We just like cemented that narrative

516
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: of men need to be strong. So really being open

517
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: and curious and reflecting somebody's reality back to them, That's

518
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: that's how we um make real connections, that's how we

519
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: build relationships, and it's also how we start to kick

520
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: over that sort of tired house of gender roles and

521
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: pain avoidance. Yeah, that's so good about reflecting someone's reality

522
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: back to them. I also is just thinking if you're

523
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: also going through grief, how uncomfortable that maybe because you

524
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: also are relying on their strength or there, whatever it

525
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: is that you project that person to be. If they're

526
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: not there, then you're actually alone in your grief, which

527
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: is actually something you talk about on your Instagram. You

528
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: say we are alone in our grief. And when I

529
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: read that, it was the first time anyone has ever

530
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: said that very clearly or that I've read very clearly. Um,

531
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: and I believe it to be true. It has been

532
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: my experience. And not in a way of we don't

533
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: have support, we don't have great friend groups, you don't

534
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: even have you know, like loved one, are any people

535
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 1: who care about us? But in the capacity of at

536
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: the end of the day, if you are grieving, you

537
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: are in all of those emotions alone. I mean, they're

538
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: yours to process, they are yours to go through. So

539
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: can you talk through a little bit about that, because

540
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: I don't think that that would be what people want

541
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: to hear. No, it isn't, and I I often say

542
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: things people don't want to hear. It's it's sort of

543
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: my favorite thing. I wanna I want to piggyback that

544
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: to what you just said about, like, well, basically, we'll

545
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: should I can't open that kind of conversation with my

546
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: male friends or male partner, UM, because then I won't

547
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: be able to rely on them. So that's sort of

548
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: a black or white thinking right there, Like, you can

549
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: either be stoic and strong and quote unquote there for me,

550
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: or I can allow you to UM share your true

551
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: emotions with me, and therefore I lose all of your support,

552
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: right like, M that's not the only two options right there.

553
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: If we think that there are only those two options,

554
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: were screwed. Yeah, the reality there is that UM, you

555
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: can actually lean on each other better with more skill,

556
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: with more satisfaction for each party. If you're having honest

557
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: conversations about what it's like, you can say things like, UM,

558
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: you know, I want to know what it's like for you,

559
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: and I'm a little bit worried that, UM, I won't

560
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: be able to rely on you if I feel like

561
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of causing you harm. But it's important

562
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: for us to talk about that. Can we talk about it? Right?

563
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: In the therapy world, we call those process discussions where

564
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: you're talking about how you talk about something versus So

565
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: it would be like, UM, arguing about who does the

566
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: dishes correctly or not correctly is a regular argument, And yeah,

567
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: I'm looking at my sync right now, and a process conversation,

568
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: and a process conversation would be um, I've noticed that

569
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: we always get into arguments about who does the dishes better?

570
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: Can we talk about how we're going to manage our differences?

571
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: That's a process conversation versus like a I can't think

572
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: of the other phrase that I use, but process conver

573
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: stations are really helpful if you're concerned that you're gonna

574
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: lose support from somebody, if you have an honest conversation

575
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: about how they're really feeling, think about what goal you

576
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: want there, Like, the goal is that I want to

577
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: feel really connected inside of this. I want to feel

578
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: like we can support each other. I want to feel

579
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: like we have each other's backs. Well. In order to

580
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: do that, you have to have some really honest, uncomfortable,

581
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: awkward conversations, right, Yeah, be awkward and do it anyway,

582
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 1: and then we're going to come into your Your next

583
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: question was like or your next thing that you want

584
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: to talk about is like you are on your own

585
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 1: in this ship. That is just true, And it doesn't

586
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: matter that you've got an amazing support team or a

587
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: partner or a therapist or all of these things, Like

588
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: the reality of grief is yours, right, Only only you

589
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: know how this loss affects you. Only you have the

590
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: breadth of history and intimacy that you shared with that person.

591
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: You can't just gribe that to someone else. You might

592
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: want to, because you want somebody to be there with you,

593
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: but you lost a unique person and a unique relationship

594
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: or a unique being. Some people are, you know, listening

595
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: here having lost a dog or you know whatever. And

596
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: I don't want to leave anybody out in the way

597
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: that we're talking about this. That the truth is that

598
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 1: no matter what or who you've lost, there is an

599
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: intimate vocabulary there that only you speak, right. No one

600
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: can join you in that. And what we very often

601
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: say to somebody going through any kind of loss is

602
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: you're not alone. That's not really true, and it's not again,

603
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: we don't go black or white here, we don't go

604
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 1: all this all that, Like those binaries don't really work

605
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: for being human one all one thing or all the other.

606
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: It is very very important to have support inside and

607
00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: alongside whatever you're going through. Companionship is how we survive. Yes,

608
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: Companionship is really really important. This is why I talk

609
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: so much about how to be a better supporter and

610
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: how to be a better friend and all of these things,

611
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: and no one is going to take the pain away

612
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: from you. Your path, your way forward is going to

613
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: be built by you alone, right, And in some ways

614
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a really empowering thing to understand.

615
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: It means that you don't have to describe every minute

616
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: filament of everything to somebody else so that you don't

617
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: feel so lonely. Right, there is a core to your

618
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: own being that nobody else will ever touch, even the

619
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: person who died. Yeah, it's almost like holding it in

620
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: a sacred space in some ways. I mean because I

621
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: was listening thinking, that's another thing that I think I'd

622
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: do in an in an attempt to avoid the pain

623
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: of grief maybe is to overtalk it, like over talk

624
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: this situation, what happened if there was a loss, like

625
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: a person just every single thing about I don't know,

626
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: their life, their death, they're all of it, and it's

627
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: just like for me, I don't know if it's like

628
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: in relationships, a lot of times it can feel like

629
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: the case building is going to save me from the

630
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: pain because if I could just prove that this was

631
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: you know, a certain way it's not going to hurt

632
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: is bad, and that's just not true either. It's still

633
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: I think it's also a way to justify your own feelings, right,

634
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: whether you're doing it to yourself or you're doing it

635
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: to somebody else. And again, like this is yet another

636
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: part of that grief averse culture. We judge and shame

637
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: and harass and dissect um everything about the human experience

638
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: of grief. Right the medical model currently, because it's still

639
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: funked up. The medical model right now says that if

640
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 1: you are still sad, um, having a time re engaging

641
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: with life thinking about your person six months after your

642
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,479
Speaker 1: person died, um, you're doing it wrong. Six months six months.

643
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: It used to be six weeks, and some some real

644
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: grassroots pushed back, I know, made it six months. Um.

645
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: There was an article that came out in the New

646
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: York Times just yesterday that heavily references so called complicated grief,

647
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: and it actually says ten percent of people won't be

648
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: better after six months. I'm like, you fucking bastards, do

649
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: better research. No one is better after six months after

650
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: somebody important to them dies, No one, right, And so

651
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 1: that sort of misinformation disinformation campaign comes from that problem

652
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: solution orientation. So it makes sense that when you're having

653
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: emotions like grief or you know, big big emotions like sadness,

654
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: we do things to defend our own feelings to ourselves

655
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: and to defend our experience to others. Whether somebody is

656
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 1: being actively judgmental or not. The general sort of soup

657
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: that we're all swimming in is judgmental against the human experience, right,

658
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: So I love that question. We we talked about this earlier,

659
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: where like when you recognize you or what did you say?

660
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 1: Case building? I love that when you recognize that your

661
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: case building to yourself, the practice there is to interrupt it. Go, oh,

662
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: I'm I'm case building. Usually I'm case building because I'm

663
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: having a big emotion that I want to amat that

664
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: I want to manage what am I feeling right now?

665
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: Right interrupting your go to mechanisms from managing emotions and

666
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: asking yourself, what do I actually need right now? What

667
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: am I feeling? What are some other ways that I

668
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: might um support myself when I feel lonely other than

669
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: um case building to defend the validity of this feeling. Yes, that,

670
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: because I think we also can come from our I

671
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: I personally have been taught I'm a big feeler, and

672
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: so that is too much. I'm doing air quotes too

673
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: much for some people, and so grief even comes, you know,

674
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: happiness comes in big waves. Grief comes in big waves,

675
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: and it's it's almost gotten to a place where, Um,

676
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about what I feel a

677
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: lot of times to people because because it's embarrassing if

678
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, I'm not over that yet or being

679
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: of that. You know, like, is there a line where

680
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: it becomes dangerous to live in our grief or is

681
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: it just person to person you have to kind of

682
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: go through the experience yourself. That's a good question. Um, First,

683
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: I would say that if the people are around you

684
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: are uncomfortable with you being yourself, yeah, they're not your people. Yeah.

685
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: And I think especially for women, sometimes we've been taught that, um,

686
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: being emotional, any kind of showing any kind of emotion

687
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: is being too much or is being needy? Right, Like,

688
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: think about the fact that calling somebody needy is an insult.

689
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: Humans need each other right biologically, relationally, emotionally. We need

690
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: each other to survive. So having needs is not a

691
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: fucking insult right, having emotions and expressing them in the

692
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: ways that actually suit you and who you are in

693
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: the world. That's not wrong, right, So I just want

694
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: to frame that and put that out there that, like,

695
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: we very often self sensor based on what we think

696
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: other people are thinking about who we are fundamentally right.

697
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: If you're not sure and you want to ask people,

698
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: you can have a process conversation with your best friend

699
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: and you can say, you know what I noticed. I

700
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: noticed that I stopped myself whenever I'm like in a

701
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: really good mood because I'm concerned that my joy is

702
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: a little overwhelming for you? Is that true? Ending that

703
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: statement with is that true? Is really important because it

704
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: opens conversation. It gives your best friend an opportunity to say,

705
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: there's a reason you're my best friend because I fucking

706
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: love how extravagant you are with joy. Right. It lets

707
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: you actually um name your concerns and find out sort

708
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: of feeling out into like, is it actually safe to

709
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: be me in the situation? Cool? Okay, I'm going to

710
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: do it right. Instead of that narrative that many of

711
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 1: us have, which is I'm too much, I'm too much,

712
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: I'm too much tone it down, right. That is something

713
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: that is taught to very many people that who you

714
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: are at your core um is too much for others. Right,

715
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: So that's that's a really great place for self reflection.

716
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: And where did I learn this? What does this mean?

717
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: What happens when I'm believing that what actions do I take?

718
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: What relationships do I want? When I'm believing that who

719
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: I am is too much for every buddy? Right, that's

720
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: a whole therapy thing in of itself. That's a great

721
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: tax to follow though. Um, and I probably forgot your

722
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: actual question. Your actual question was I got you. I

723
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: got you. Your question was like, when is the normal

724
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: experience of grief? When does it cross over into quote

725
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: unquote dangerous territory? So, uh, just a reminder here that

726
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: normal healthy grief hurts. It is messy, it is overwhelming,

727
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: it is confusing you. Your memory might be impacted, your

728
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: sleep is definitely going to be impacted. You might feel

729
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: more anxious, you might be forgetful, you might not be

730
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: able to read more than a paragraph at a time.

731
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: All of those things are normal healthy grief. They are uncomfortable,

732
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: and they're normal. A lot of the questions that I

733
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: get from friends and family members clinicians is like, okay,

734
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: but when is it a problem? We really want to know,

735
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: like how much is too much? When do we stop it? Um?

736
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: Really dangerous territory is health and safety. Right, somebody is

737
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: harming themselves or harming others, they are actively suicidal. There

738
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: are also things like, um, somebody has completely stopped eating,

739
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: or they're they've lost so much weight that it becomes

740
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: a medical issue. Right. So dangerous territory for me is

741
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 1: health and safety in the physical dangerous zone. Right. Just

742
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: because an emotion is messy, just because somebody is crying

743
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: at the grocery store, Just because somebody um is air

744
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: quotes still talking about their person predominantly six months, eight months,

745
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: a year later, that's not dangerous. That's grief, right. But

746
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 1: we want to look at things like, um, are they

747
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: taking risk that are endangering themselves or others? Right? Those

748
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: sorts of things. Now, you might have concerns about your person,

749
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: and your concerns are valid. There is a way to

750
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: phrase those concerns that doesn't shame in silence the person

751
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: you're talking to. So that might look like, um, um,

752
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how to talk about this, but

753
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: I have some concerns. Um, I've noticed that you've lost

754
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: a lot mount I honestly, I wouldn't talk about somebody's

755
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: weight because that's really fucking touchy. I might say something like, UM,

756
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: I haven't seen or heard from you in seven or

757
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: eight days, and I want to respect your privacy, but

758
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: I'm also really concerned about your safety. Can we talk

759
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: about that? Yeah? Right? UM, I know that losing somebody

760
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 1: this close to you can really make you feel like

761
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: not being part of the world anymore. I want you

762
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: to know that it's okay to talk to me if

763
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: you feel like you just want to stop waking up

764
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: or you actually are thinking about harming yourself for killing yourself, right,

765
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: I want you to know that you can talk to

766
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: me about that, you can voice your concerns in such

767
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: a way that leave the person feeling supported and seen

768
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: instead of silenced. Right. And that is going to be

769
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: working on your own discomfort level, or your own comfort

770
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: level with being uncomfortable and reminding yourself or learning that natural,

771
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: normal grief is not tidy. It's not it's not tidy,

772
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong with that. Right. So have you

773
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: seen because I feel like this last year, just during

774
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: the pandemic. I mean, it was a collective trauma, a

775
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: collective amount of grief happening. And I know I'm thinking

776
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 1: specifically amongst my friend group, it was hard sometimes because

777
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 1: we all had so many losses happening that there wasn't

778
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: that that stable person to kind of you know, that

779
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 1: you could like lean on, or we all had shipped,

780
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: and so I think you sort of felt like, odd,

781
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: I can't go to this person with that because they

782
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: don't have the capacity. Um, do you have any tips

783
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: for maybe now that we're starting to somewhat seemingly come

784
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: out of this, how do we adjust how do we

785
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: support our people, especially if we ourselves have gone through

786
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: a lot of loss and collective grief this last year. Yeah,

787
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: it's a great question. So very often when I do interviews, UM,

788
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 1: people ask me if I think this pandemic has made

789
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 1: us better at grief, And my answer is none. Um,

790
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,280
Speaker 1: it hasn't made us better at grief because I don't

791
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: think we've really started talking about what grief really is

792
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: and what's needed. I mean, this is again going back

793
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: to that hideous New York Times article where they're pathologizing

794
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 1: grief like that is still the medical model. No matter

795
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: how hard I try to flip that ship over. UM,

796
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: that sort of prevailing cultural belief that you need to

797
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 1: get over things very quickly. Um, that is a strongly

798
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: held belief. So I think what's happened over the last

799
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: year plus because of the pandemic is because everyone is

800
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: grieving something. I think what's actually happened is that more

801
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: of us have understood or have realized that the ways

802
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: we habitually respond to grief or wrong. Let me see

803
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: if I can say that a little bit more sustinctively.

804
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: Like human beings don't change behavior until it's personal. That's

805
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: not right, not wrong, It is just the way that

806
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: the human brain works, right, Like, you don't take action

807
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: on something if it doesn't affect you personally. Half the

808
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: time you don't even know it's an issue, and the

809
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 1: other half of the time it's like, it's not broken,

810
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: why fix it? And then you experience it and you're like,

811
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: oh wow, And what's happened. What's happened over during the

812
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: course of this pandemic is that everybody has lost something,

813
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: from the loss of daily routine to the loss of career,

814
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 1: to loss of a job, to loss of humans and

815
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: loss of relationships, to the loss of sense of normalcy.

816
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: Everybody has lost something and so now it's personal. You

817
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: sort of reach for those old platitudes and you realize

818
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 1: that they're nothing, that they're irrelevant at best and rude

819
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: and harmful at worst. Right, So what's happened is this

820
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: sort of from my perspective, a cultural awakening to the

821
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: fact that the ways we deal with grief are seriously

822
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: broken and we need to do something different. I don't

823
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: know that we have yet started wondering what we can

824
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: do differently. So um, and then your your other question

825
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: and they're about like we didn't have I didn't have

826
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: the bandwidth to support other people because I was dealing

827
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: with my own stuff. And now that we're sort of

828
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: coming out of this in a lot of ways, like

829
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 1: how am I going to be there and talk about

830
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: this and support my friends when I'm still hobbling around

831
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 1: with my own stuff and I'm going to come back

832
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: to we name the situation, right, you name the awkwardness

833
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: in the room, You name the difficulty. So that means

834
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: like going to your friends individually or as a cohort group,

835
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: if that's the way your role and saying you know

836
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: this year has been really hard for me, and I

837
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: know for all of us, and I want to be

838
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: there for you, and I also need to lean on you,

839
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: and I don't know how we're going to do this,

840
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: Like maybe there's some way to time share emotional support

841
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: between us. I love the time share approach because it

842
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: doesn't prioritize any one person's grief or experience than the others. Like, oh,

843
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: Sally over here got divorced and that's really shitty and

844
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: they need that support. But this person lost both parents

845
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: and a grandparents, So we need to, like Marshal, like,

846
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: there's sort of this sorting hierarchy that happens. And the

847
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 1: reality is that within a cohort group, UM, everybody needs everybody.

848
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: So first of all, let's name that, and UM, I

849
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: really need support today. Do you have the bandwidth right

850
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: now to um? Let me vent about this right And

851
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: So what we're talking about here is the developing relationships

852
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: where you can say that, where you can say, I

853
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: know you're going through some ship right now and I

854
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: don't want to lean on you, UM, and I really

855
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: need your ear on X, Y and Z. Do you

856
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: have time later today to talk about it? Yeah, that's

857
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: step one. Step two, however, is super duper important, and

858
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: this is cultivating relationships where it's okay for your friend

859
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: to say I don't have it in me today. Right.

860
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: It needs to be okay for your friends to say

861
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: no and not have it be a big issue. Right.

862
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 1: What we're doing here is we're making bids for connection.

863
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: We're stating what we need. We're asking if that other

864
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: person is available to meet those needs and making it

865
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: okay for them to say no, I cannot, and know

866
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: that you will be okay and you will go to

867
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: the next person who might be able to meet those needs. Yeah.

868
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: Those are high level relational communication skills. Yeah. Right, that

869
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: is the bar to aim for, the goal to aim for,

870
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: and um, you know very often we talk about this

871
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: in grief. Right, it's like, well, the grieving person needs

872
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 1: to say what they need and ask for it and

873
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: like be proactive. We say the same thing to people

874
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 1: of color, right, like you need to tell me why

875
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 1: what I said was racist? Like, you know, the person

876
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: at the center of suffering does not need to educate

877
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,720
Speaker 1: everybody around them, So that is not going to happen.

878
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: It is important to the best of your capacity and

879
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: ability at the time to articulate what you need from

880
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 1: the people closest to you. However, most people don't say

881
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: what they need in the best of times. So when

882
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: ship has gone sideways, asking the person in pain to

883
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: figure out what they need, figure out who might be

884
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: able to meet that need, ask for what they need,

885
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: that's that's not going to happen. So the way that

886
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: you prepare for things like this is to build those

887
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 1: kinds of relationships where you can do that on the

888
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: low level things so that in the event that ship

889
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: really goes sideways, these skills, these communication skills are not

890
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: new to you, right. For some people, they have the

891
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: kind of friendships where you can just be like, life

892
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: is ship, May I vent to you and the other

893
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: person can say, I can listen to your venting at

894
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: four pm today? Is that okay? Right? But that is

895
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 1: through trial and error, that is through trust building, that

896
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: is through validating and honoring each other's experiences, And you

897
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: can do that every single day so that that muscle

898
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,919
Speaker 1: memory gets in there. Like pre pandemic, I used to say,

899
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: like you you get a chance to practice this your

900
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: your ways of responding to pain. Let me start over

901
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: on that one because I was just about to be

902
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: super incoherent. At least I catch it right. But there's

903
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 1: this exercise that I talk about called pain spotting. Right.

904
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: We hear pain all the time, we just don't recognize

905
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: it as pain. So if you want the kind of

906
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: relationships where you can talk about what's really going on

907
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: for you, where you can talk about these awkward, messy

908
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: interpersonal things, you've got to practice on small ships. So

909
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 1: let's say you are at in line at the coffee shop, Um,

910
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 1: and you asked the barista how their day is going,

911
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: and they say, not that great. The dog was sick

912
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: all night. Um, I didn't sleep very well, so I'm

913
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: kind of out of it and I got here late.

914
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: Now the boss is piste off and somebody called out sick.

915
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: What we usually say habitually, instinctively is at least the

916
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: sun is out. It's it's so true. And you just

917
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: you just missed your daily practice session, right, you just

918
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,959
Speaker 1: missed a chance to practice new communication skills. What's a better,

919
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: more effective thing to say in that situation is that

920
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: all sounds really shitty. I'm sorry that happened. That's all

921
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: you gotta do. Yeah, right, that's all you gotta do.

922
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: You just acknowledge what the person said, you reflect it

923
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: back to them. Acknowledgement is a really powerful relational tool.

924
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: And if you get in the habit of interrupting your

925
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: impulse to fix ship or make it better for somebody

926
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 1: and instead practice validating and acknowledging what they're going through,

927
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: that is going to be that much easier when things

928
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: really go sideways, when somebody's baby dies two days before

929
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: their due date, or your friend just got into a

930
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: car accident and they've lost the use of their legs

931
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: and now they're like, am I supposed to do? Right?

932
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: Practice acknowledging and validating what somebody is going through without

933
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: trying to talk them out of it. Practice on the

934
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: small things so that in the event that bigger things

935
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: show up, it is not completely new. Right, We have

936
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: a I hate to use the word opportunity because you know,

937
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: people pair opportunity in crisis all the time. It's garbage,

938
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But we do have an opportunity right

939
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: now because we have had this shared experience of loss

940
00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: over the last year, two start having conversations about how

941
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: are we going to talk about loss moving forward? Right

942
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: This year has been really hard. I know it was

943
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: hard for you and it's hard for me. Um, what

944
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: would feel really like what do you want to what

945
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about? Like do you want

946
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: to talk about how weird it is to be going

947
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: out into public? Do you want to talk about how

948
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,240
Speaker 1: how scary it is to think about meeting new people

949
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: and having like not only if you going out into

950
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: the dating world, Like not only do you have to

951
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: talk about safer sex practices, but you also have to

952
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: talk about your vaccination status. Like how are we going

953
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: to talk about this stuff? There's so much stuff to navigate,

954
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 1: and just getting into the habit of talking about what

955
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 1: is actually happening is really the way to start. It's

956
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: like the Rosetta stone to navigating all of this stuff

957
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 1: is like, let's talk about what's actually in the room

958
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 1: and practice validating and reflecting back rather than fixing things

959
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: for each other. Yeah. I love that because I think

960
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 1: that goes to you know, the image I get a

961
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: lot of times with grief and people not knowing how

962
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: to deal with it as a funeral and you're just like,

963
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say, everyone's so uncomfortable and

964
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: just validating Is that to me is what anyone would

965
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: actually want. It's what I always want when when I'm

966
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: in paying, I don't need you to tell me the

967
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: silver lining because like sometimes there's not that's right, not

968
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: everything that silver lining, It just loucks. And like this

969
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: is the thing is like we get so nervous and

970
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: so bent out of shape. Was like, oh, I don't

971
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: want to say the wrong thing, Like I have to

972
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: say this. I have to make it better for them.

973
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: Like your job as a friend or a support person

974
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: is not to make people feel better, It is to

975
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: make them feel heard. The cool thing is that that

976
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: is a lot easier than making somebody feel better. All

977
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: you have to do is say this sucks and there's

978
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: nothing that I can say that makes it better. But

979
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm here and I love you. Yeah, that is way

980
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: easier than like, okay, let me make sure that I

981
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: say exactly the right thing and then remind them that

982
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: life will be better again and they'll find somebody new

983
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: and it will all be okay. Like that is so

984
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: much more effort and it does not work. Actually you haven't.

985
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: It makes it work. So you have an opportunity here

986
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: to do to try less hard for better outcome. So

987
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: let's do that. Yeah, it just feels weird because we're

988
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: not used to it, right, Yeah, well you mentioned earlier. Um,

989
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: it's about knowing, you know, when you're in the grief.

990
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: It's about knowing how to help yourself in those moments,

991
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: the tools that we have within those moments. So I

992
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: feel like this is a good time to talk about

993
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: your book. So the book is called It's Okay Not

994
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: to Be Okay, tell us a little bit about the book. Yes,

995
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: so it's okay that you're not okay. Um, it is

996
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: a really awesome book, So let's just start there. I

997
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: love that book and and because I study like how

998
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: humans are, Like the first part of the book really

999
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: goes into that cultural avoidance of grief. It's like the

1000
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: sociological study of how did we get where we are

1001
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: and how do we move forward? Now, what I very

1002
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: often say, and I say it in the book is

1003
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: if loss just happened for you, if your person just died,

1004
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: or you just lost this relationship, or like grief is

1005
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: fresh and raw for you, you don't care about the

1006
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: cultural significance of grief. Right. I'm an anthropologist in a

1007
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: and a sociology geek all over the place. But when

1008
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: my partner first died, I didn't care about the historical

1009
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: roots of pain avoidance, and that I wrote the book

1010
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: in such a way that you can skip the entire

1011
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: first part and get what you need right. But if

1012
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: you do want to understand, um, how we got where

1013
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: we are and how to get out of it again. Um,

1014
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: it's a really cool exploration of all the different ways

1015
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: that that avoidance of being human shows up in different

1016
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: parts of life, culture, UM, entertainment, world, all of these things.

1017
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: And then the other two thirds of the book, Um,

1018
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: the middle part is about you know, what are the

1019
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: tools that you actually need inside grief? How do you

1020
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: distinguish between pain and suffering? How do you reduce suffering

1021
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: by communicating your needs, by getting help with your anxiety,

1022
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: or with things that you can do to help yourself

1023
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: sleep or rest better. Like the tools that we have

1024
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: for managing grief are actually much more helpful if you

1025
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: look at them as how do I reduce my suffering

1026
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 1: instead of how do I make my grief go away?

1027
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: So that middle part of the book is about the

1028
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: difference between pain and suffering and what tools do we

1029
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: need to to meet each part of that? How do

1030
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: you support yourself inside pain itself? And how do you

1031
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: decrease your suffering where you can? And then the last

1032
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: part of the book is really aimed at friends and

1033
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: family members and supporters who want to do things better.

1034
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 1: It does go back into like, there's a reason why

1035
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: you don't know how to do this. It's cool, it's

1036
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: not your fault, but here's what you need to do differently.

1037
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: I really wanted that part of the book. I wanted

1038
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: grieving people to be able to hand the book to

1039
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: their best friend or their mother in law and say,

1040
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: I know you have the best of intentions, here's what

1041
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: would be really helpful for me, So like read this

1042
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: section I wanted. I mean, if you start telling your

1043
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: mother in law why your grief is valid and why

1044
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: they're supporting you all wrong, Like, that's not going to

1045
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: go well for you. I'm not gonna go well for you.

1046
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 1: But if you put that information in the mouth of

1047
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: an expert air quotes here, UM, I think it makes

1048
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: it easier to to re educate, redirect train the people

1049
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: who really wanted to really want to be of help

1050
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: to you. Um, if you let somebody else describe the

1051
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: problem for you, right, so that last part of It's

1052
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 1: Okay is really about UM helping your support teams really

1053
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: deliver the love and support that they intend to give,

1054
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: because good intentions are a thing. We want our person

1055
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: to feel loved and supported by what we're saying. The

1056
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: unfortunate thing is that all of the ways that we've

1057
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 1: been trained to support somebody are wrong. They're not effective,

1058
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: and they're hurting people. They're causing damage. So we need

1059
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 1: to unlearn all of those things and learn better ways

1060
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: to really deliver that love we intend, so that that

1061
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: last part of the book is really about undoing what

1062
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 1: you've been taught and teaching how to do it better

1063
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: and differently. UM. And it also talks about the importance

1064
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 1: of community. I think we've said this several times together

1065
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: today is community is our survival, right. We survive impossible

1066
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: things together, right, we it's just the reality of being mammals, right,

1067
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: Like we need each other to survive. There's a there's

1068
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: a reason why in a lot of in a lot

1069
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: of old traditions, like if you go against the rules

1070
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: of the society, you get excommunicated, right, and literally one

1071
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 1: of the rituals there is like the whole community stands

1072
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 1: in a circle with the person who's screwed up in

1073
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 1: the middle, and one by one each person in the

1074
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 1: community makes eye contact and turns their back. Like. That

1075
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: is powerful. And what this says is that, like you

1076
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: did something so wrong, you are on your own in this.

1077
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 1: So if we flip that, we say that, Um, you know,

1078
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: I'm not sure my analogy is landing here. But like

1079
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: survival relies depends on connection, and the absence of connection

1080
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 1: is how we get lost. Right, you asked me earlier,

1081
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: like what's dangerous inside grief? And what's dangerous inside grief

1082
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: is isolation, right, it is feeling abandoned. That's different than

1083
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: what we talked about a minute ago with with truly

1084
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: being intimately alone with yourself and your grief. Being isolated

1085
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: in your grief is what makes an unbearable situation impossible. Right,

1086
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: So that part of the book is really about acknowledging

1087
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: our needs for companionship and connection and talking about better

1088
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: ways to get that companionship that we needed for our

1089
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: own survival. Um, It's Okay has been out for I

1090
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 1: think for four or so years now, and in the

1091
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 1: realm of nonfiction books and then specifically in the realm

1092
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: of grief. I remember when my agent and I we're

1093
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: shopping for a publishing home for It's Okay, and a

1094
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 1: lot of the big houses said nobody, grief books don't

1095
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: sell nobody, nobody reads them. And my clap back was always,

1096
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 1: that's because grief books suck. Yeah, So much of our

1097
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: literature around grief, it it has been changing lately, but

1098
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: so much of our literature around grief is um putting

1099
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: a pretty bow on things that don't deserve a pretty bow.

1100
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 1: It it puts a high spin gloss on things. Most

1101
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: of our grief literature prioritizes a return to happiness and normalcy,

1102
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: and that is just not the reality for most people. Um.

1103
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: It turns out that telling the blunt truth about grief

1104
01:04:55,720 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 1: means something two people. So you know people by It's okay,

1105
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: by the case slow to deliver to hospitals and hospice organizations.

1106
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: And I just I love that about the work is

1107
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 1: that UM, telling the truth seems too simple to be

1108
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,479
Speaker 1: of use, But it turns out that telling the truth

1109
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 1: about grief is actually what people need and it's really powerful. Well,

1110
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: as you're saying that, I was thinking the last thing

1111
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: that someone going through grief needs is shame at all

1112
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: that And so if you are reading a book that's

1113
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: like you'll get over this in this amount of time,

1114
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: yet you're not, or you know, like they're mapping it out,

1115
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 1: and that's not with the way your life looks. That

1116
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: would for me produce so much shame. So then not

1117
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 1: only am I sad and grieving and in pain, I

1118
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 1: feel terrible about the human that I am because I'm like, well,

1119
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: why can't I bounce back like everyone else is bouncing back? Yeah,

1120
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 1: And that's the that's the real danger of that cultural

1121
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: narrative of of happiness as the baseline of health, right

1122
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: that a positive outlook is the only possible outlook and

1123
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: everything else is you know, you're just being a jerk.

1124
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 1: It makes normal, healthy people feel like they're failing on

1125
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: top of the grief that they're actually feeling. So they're

1126
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 1: shame in there. There's judgment in there, there's the past

1127
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: fail for the human heart. There is a right way

1128
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: and a wrong way to do this. And if you're

1129
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 1: not back to normal and happy and having a positive

1130
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 1: outlook and being grateful for what you've still got, if

1131
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: you're not doing all that performative happiness ship real soon

1132
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 1: like two weeks, ten days, six months, then you're failing.

1133
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 1: And so then you can internalize that failure and feel like,

1134
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: not only am I in pain, but I'm sucking this up.

1135
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 1: Or you can feel really defensive right and start trying

1136
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: to defend your grief to yourself and to other people,

1137
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: which we've talked about earlier. UM So it's either like

1138
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: you collapse in the face of shame and judgment or

1139
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 1: you um roar into defending yourself. And neither of those

1140
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:56,440
Speaker 1: are places that I want somebody whose life just dissolved, like,

1141
01:06:56,480 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: I just want you to have the luxury to feel

1142
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: whatever you feel and be supported inside it. Right, Let's

1143
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: not pile shame onto that. Let's not pile on the

1144
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 1: need to defend yourself, right, and then to to to

1145
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 1: go back to the tools that you were talking about.

1146
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: So the the book that comes out in May is

1147
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: a guided grief journal. It's called How to Carry What

1148
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: Can't Be Fixed. It really drills into what are the

1149
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 1: tools that you can use inside grief itself to help

1150
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: you manage the um support yourself inside the immovable pain

1151
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 1: that you're feeling, and also what are the tools that

1152
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 1: you can use to help decrease your suffering. Right, So

1153
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 1: it builds on some of the exercises that are in

1154
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 1: It's Okay. There's UM some guided writing prompts. I am

1155
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: super super picky about writing prompts as they relate to

1156
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 1: grief because so often, um they feel really sort of

1157
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: boring to me, like tell us about the funeral, Like

1158
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 1: that's not really how I roll. So the writing prompts

1159
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: in in this guided journal are are a little bit deeper.

1160
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 1: It's a lot more, a lot deeper than those sort

1161
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 1: of standard tell us about the funeral prompts. And it's

1162
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 1: it's not a journal to solve grief for you, because

1163
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 1: that is not how I work. It is a a

1164
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: place for you to tell the whole truth about your grief,

1165
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: whatever that looks like for you. And there are also

1166
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, echoing sort of the shape of It's Okay.

1167
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 1: There are also there's also a whole section of UM

1168
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: resources that you can print out or tear out of

1169
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 1: the book and photocopy so that you can hand resources

1170
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: to your nosy neighbor who really wants to be helpful,

1171
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 1: or your best friend, you're your best friend who really

1172
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 1: truly wants to show up for you. And how so

1173
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,600
Speaker 1: all of these um educate your friends and family resources

1174
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 1: are in the journal as well. UM, because again, like

1175
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 1: when your life just dissolved, I don't want you having

1176
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 1: to do the work to educate the people around you.

1177
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 1: That is my job, right, that's my job and my

1178
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: team's job to make things easier for grieving people by

1179
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: educating the world around them so that all you have

1180
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 1: to do is fall apart. Well, I saw that there

1181
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 1: was a link in the in your bio on your

1182
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: Instagram to that UM the Grief Journal, but I'm also

1183
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 1: going to link both of those in the description of

1184
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: this podcast so that you guys can easily find them.

1185
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I just love the truth about pain.

1186
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 1: I like people to speak openly, so that again, to me,

1187
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: that feels connecting, you know, that connects me with other

1188
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: humans to hear about their truth. And just with the

1189
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 1: walk not being so pretty imperfect, you know, I really

1190
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 1: hope that we can let some of those guards down

1191
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:34,640
Speaker 1: after a year like we've had exactly, and that like

1192
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:40,719
Speaker 1: telling the truth is a relief, yeah right, it's actually

1193
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 1: it's an awkward and gentle act and to loop back

1194
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 1: to where we started right like you were talking about

1195
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 1: I don't I'm going to analyze this so that I

1196
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 1: never feel this again, and and really like, that's not

1197
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:59,080
Speaker 1: the way forward. The way forward is I'm going to

1198
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 1: feel this in different ways again and again and again.

1199
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: And that is part of loving the world, That is

1200
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,599
Speaker 1: part of being human in this world. It will happen again.

1201
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,599
Speaker 1: And what do I need to know now to support

1202
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:20,400
Speaker 1: myself when grief comes back again? Because it will? Right, Yeah,

1203
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 1: that one, I'm gonna have to sit with that one

1204
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:24,040
Speaker 1: for a minute. Yeah, it's hard. It's a hard one,

1205
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 1: I really do. I really feel like, but it's it's

1206
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 1: hitting me. It's resonating for sure. Megan, thank you so much.

1207
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,840
Speaker 1: I really appreciate this. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you guys

1208
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 1: so much for listening. Thanks for listening to The Velvet's

1209
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 1: Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson, where we believe everyone has

1210
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: a little velvet and a little edge. Subscribe for more

1211
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 1: conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge

1212
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.