Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and
Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
Speaker 1: The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences,
Speaker 1: are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons
Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very
Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy
Speaker 1: I hope you really enjoyed the episode. Last week our
Speaker 1: conversation with Professor Ali Alumi, who is you know, scholar
Speaker 1: expert but also a very cool guy. Uh. This week,
Speaker 1: I wanted to pivot a little bit. I wanted to
Speaker 1: move a little bit away from the scholar expert field
Speaker 1: and kind of talk to somebody who has had some
Speaker 1: crazy experiences, more like telling stories around the camp fire
Speaker 1: type of vibe. So I have on this week somebody
Speaker 1: who I love dearly, Shaheen Basha. She is just an amazing,
Speaker 1: extraordinary woman in the work that she does and Also,
Speaker 1: her stories are freaky. I mean like I first heard
Speaker 1: of these stories a couple of years ago and I've
Speaker 1: just remembered them ever since. And I said, Okay, sha Heen,
Speaker 1: I got it. I needed to retell these stories. So
Speaker 1: let me tell you a little bit about Shaheen Um
Speaker 1: Shahen is an assistant teaching professor at Penn State University
Speaker 1: and her focus is on mass incarceration and prison education.
Speaker 1: She's a journalist. She's also the co founder and executive
Speaker 1: director of the Prison Journalism Project, which is all about
Speaker 1: providing incarcerated men and women the skills to tell their
Speaker 1: own stories through journalism and also giving them a platform
Speaker 1: to publish their stories on She is an award winning
Speaker 1: veteran journalist with twenty years of experience as an international
Speaker 1: reporter covering legal and business issues for Thompson Rooters, CNN,
Speaker 1: DAL Jones Newswire. And she's also the co editor of
Speaker 1: the anthology Mirror on the Veil, a collection of personal
Speaker 1: essays on hit job and veiling, and a contributor to
Speaker 1: Burn It Down, an anthology of essays exploring women and anger.
Speaker 1: So let's talk to Shaheen Basha. This is a fun conversation.
Speaker 1: Hope you enjoy it. Hi, and welcome to this week's episode. Shaheen,
Speaker 1: how are you. I'm good, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for a green to come on.
Speaker 1: You're incredibly busy person, and I told our listeners a
Speaker 1: little bit about your background, but I want you to
Speaker 1: tell our listeners about your work and your own words. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm I've been a journalist for about twenty years, so
Speaker 1: I always have that as part of my identity. So
Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. I'm an assistant teaching professor Pence Date,
Speaker 1: and I'm also the co founder and co executive director
Speaker 1: of the Prison Journalism Project, which is basically my life work.
Speaker 1: It's um it's my passion project. And what we do
Speaker 1: is we teach incarcerated men and women around UM the
Speaker 1: country how to do journalism, how to express themselves. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's both educational in the sense that we know curriculum,
Speaker 1: we do, you know, we work on textbooks advising all
Speaker 1: of that. But we also have a publication and online
Speaker 1: publication at Prison Journals and Project dot org, and we
Speaker 1: receive submissions from all over the country and we get
Speaker 1: to work with these amazing writers and people that you know,
Speaker 1: the rest of society doesn't know yet, and we're training
Speaker 1: them and like getting their words out. And I'm really
Speaker 1: excited about it because I think, especially right now, when
Speaker 1: it's so possible for people to be forgotten, I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, the project is really giving them life. And
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about that. Yeah, a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't realize. COVID quarantine has been tough for a lot
Speaker 1: of us. But for those who are incarcerated, they get
Speaker 1: to see no buddy, so they can't even get outside
Speaker 1: of their cells. They've lost visitation. It's been really, really
Speaker 1: tremendously difficult. And you know, this work that you're doing
Speaker 1: is so close to my heart. But here's my question,
Speaker 1: and it's a huge I mean, honestly an incredible project
Speaker 1: and a huge project. How do you train them? Isn't
Speaker 1: like virtual or you have people go like how does
Speaker 1: this work? Right now? At the moment. What they do
Speaker 1: is they send us their work and you know, we
Speaker 1: edit it and we post it. But from within that,
Speaker 1: we also we reach out to our our men and women.
Speaker 1: We send them. You know, there's definitely send of their
Speaker 1: clips on our website. We basically all of our writers
Speaker 1: have a profile page where all of their work gets
Speaker 1: put up there and it encouraged. But how do they
Speaker 1: hear about you? How do you even know you exist?
Speaker 1: A determination? Yeah? Now, um, we we had started basically
Speaker 1: last I mean, we've been doing the work. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been a professor for a while and I was
Speaker 1: going inside in person to to teach classes on an
Speaker 1: individual basis. But you know, we've been doing the work
Speaker 1: for a while. When I moved to Penn State, we
Speaker 1: launched the Prison Journalism Project officially September two thousand nineteen.
Speaker 1: Launched our website this year. Um, it was supposed to
Speaker 1: be the work was supposed to be about, you know,
Speaker 1: the training and the education and going inside and curriculated.
Speaker 1: The pandemic changed all of that, you know, and we
Speaker 1: realized we didn't want to just put the project on hold.
Speaker 1: We wanted to evolve it, and we had this idea
Speaker 1: to create this publication and with that, what we found is,
Speaker 1: you know, we started with a really simple medium page
Speaker 1: and that blew up. And it partly was word of
Speaker 1: mouth with us, you know, basically talking to people that
Speaker 1: we knew were partnered U with San Quentin News as well,
Speaker 1: and you know, with do my sources and people that
Speaker 1: I worked with before, and then we partnered with the
Speaker 1: American Prison Writing Archive and they connected to the Prison
Speaker 1: Legal News, who met who agreed to put our submissions.
Speaker 1: Call for Free Fantastic was the nicest thing for them
Speaker 1: to do, and it just went everywhere. And then Black
Speaker 1: and Pink put us in there as well, because we
Speaker 1: wanted all these different voices to get you know, to
Speaker 1: get inside. So a lot of it started with that,
Speaker 1: and then it just kind of word of mouth just
Speaker 1: kept spreading around the country and now we're getting submissions
Speaker 1: from everywhere, and you know, people are really reaching out
Speaker 1: to us as well, um individually, like what are you
Speaker 1: looking for? So we created um this journalism primer that's
Speaker 1: on our website that you know, we have a section
Speaker 1: in the Shared Story so we're writing prompts, so we
Speaker 1: have a primer style guide all of this stuff. Um.
Speaker 1: Sometimes family members will send inside, but oftentimes somebody will
Speaker 1: write us and we'll just send it to them and
Speaker 1: then they'll send us stuff back, and you know, we're
Speaker 1: working with that and some people are just happy to
Speaker 1: get you know, a piece out in our poem out
Speaker 1: and be done. And I really want to work on
Speaker 1: their craft, and so we do back and forth with them,
Speaker 1: and through that we're seeing a few writers as set
Speaker 1: group of writers are starting to rise above. So we're
Speaker 1: gonna be launching a contributing writers section, which you know,
Speaker 1: and we're trying to get our guys separately. We work
Speaker 1: with the ones that are really showing promise and really interested,
Speaker 1: where we go back and forth on pieces to get
Speaker 1: them published. One of our guys just got published in
Speaker 1: the Washington Post. That's amazing. Yeah, so we're really insulations.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what fulfilling work. As I hear you
Speaker 1: talk as prompting all these questions in my mind because
Speaker 1: I'm so interested in this work. But obviously this conversation
Speaker 1: is not not about this work. But I do want
Speaker 1: to mention there's two reasons I'm having this conversation though,
Speaker 1: because the first is because I want folks to know
Speaker 1: how we first, how we know each other, how we
Speaker 1: first connected. Were you following like the advanced case or
Speaker 1: undisclosed if I remember correctly what happened? Was I mean,
Speaker 1: I was a huge fan of you know, following the serial,
Speaker 1: you know, and um, I've been talking, you know, because
Speaker 1: I just saw so many similarities. You know, I have
Speaker 1: a I have a loved one of friends who's incarcerated.
Speaker 1: I saw so many similarities that passion for it. And
Speaker 1: it was interesting because my husband is the one that
Speaker 1: reached out to you. He did reach out to me
Speaker 1: and said, listen. He said, I have an incredible wife
Speaker 1: who does incredible work, and I need you to read
Speaker 1: her work. And I was like what, because I have
Speaker 1: never people do reach out and solicit right like they
Speaker 1: want you to like you don't read their work promote it.
Speaker 1: But I've never had a spouse to that. I thought
Speaker 1: it was so lovely and he was right, and I'm
Speaker 1: so glad I did it, and I'm so glad we connected.
Speaker 1: And yeah, there's also that the fact that this work
Speaker 1: is very meaningful to you. But okay, but the real
Speaker 1: reason I set folks up before we get into this
Speaker 1: conversation is because no one I wanted listeners to get
Speaker 1: an idea of, Like all of our guests has very
Speaker 1: different backgrounds. Everybody having conversations with around this topic of
Speaker 1: gin and the supernatural a very different backgrounds. But I
Speaker 1: also like to like build up your credibility and then
Speaker 1: like I'm not crazy and then bring it crashing down.
Speaker 1: And I'm waiting for that to happen to be like oh,
Speaker 1: She's like, oh right, so you are risking some measure
Speaker 1: of your credibility. But look, it is what it is.
Speaker 1: You know, you see what you see, your experience, which experience.
Speaker 1: So let's like shift the conversation now, because clearly you
Speaker 1: are a reasonable, rational, brilliant, intelligent, accomplished woman. Now let's
Speaker 1: get into the gym stuff. First of all, were you
Speaker 1: raised in like a cultural identity or religious culture that
Speaker 1: had any connection to this phenomenon. Yeah, I mean I'm
Speaker 1: I'm Pakistani American. I mean I was born in New York,
Speaker 1: a New Yorker, but um, my family's Pakistani. We're from
Speaker 1: Karachi and you know we're Muslims. So I think for me,
Speaker 1: the whole concept of gin and supernatural is not something
Speaker 1: that was outside of our wheel bearer. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is something we grew up with as just you know,
Speaker 1: you you believe in God, you believe in you know,
Speaker 1: saying you believe in Gin, I mean, you believe in angels.
Speaker 1: It wasn't something that was deemed as being crazy that way. Um,
Speaker 1: So I remember, you know, my grandmother would be in
Speaker 1: Pakistan and she'd be we'd be lying in bed and
Speaker 1: she would tell stories about like you know, magic and
Speaker 1: Gin and like India, you know, before partition, and that's
Speaker 1: just what I kind of grew up with. And then
Speaker 1: I think that level of wonder it was just it
Speaker 1: was just so normal that that's life that duds us,
Speaker 1: and that's other things out there because that's what our
Speaker 1: religious beliefs and training, you know, said. I think as
Speaker 1: you grow older, you kind of go, oh, I am
Speaker 1: never going to mention this out loud, and you know,
Speaker 1: I can't talk about it, and I don't you know,
Speaker 1: share stories in public about it. But you know, my
Speaker 1: cousins and I had this standing thing that anytime we
Speaker 1: got together, you know, whether it was in Pakistan or
Speaker 1: when they moved here. Even to this day, we tell
Speaker 1: Gin stories. It's just part of like our way of connecting.
Speaker 1: I think I was at your house and we started
Speaker 1: telling Jin stories stories. It was great. That was like
Speaker 1: that was a while ago, that was like and haw
Speaker 1: or two years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, it is
Speaker 1: very much a thing. And I knew growing up that
Speaker 1: was like the best part of seeing friends other friends
Speaker 1: who actually also shared this belief and I also felt
Speaker 1: like we had this little secret where it's like all
Speaker 1: this other phenomenon that the rest of the world doesn't understand.
Speaker 1: We're like, oh, we totally know why it's happening. We
Speaker 1: we can totally explain it to you. Um, but let
Speaker 1: me ask you. So when you when you say like
Speaker 1: your grandmother was telling these stories, were these stories that
Speaker 1: frightened you? Like? Were these lessons? Were they like? How
Speaker 1: how did you think about the gin? Honestly I was
Speaker 1: a scaredy cat kid who was scared of everything, and um,
Speaker 1: I was terrified also they were were they scary stories? They?
Speaker 1: I don't think they were meant to me. They would
Speaker 1: just sort of like you know, um, you know my grandmother,
Speaker 1: you know, we're from our families from lucknow in India,
Speaker 1: and you know, very kind of spiritual in you know,
Speaker 1: it's an old place, whole place, very spiritual, very much
Speaker 1: very Sufi, right. So I think also it's when you
Speaker 1: when you're more into Sufism and souf you know, when
Speaker 1: you have those beliefs, you sort of are much more
Speaker 1: open to, you know, the things that are outside of
Speaker 1: your long vision, you know, and the spiritual world is
Speaker 1: just another world to you, because you know, that's what
Speaker 1: suphism is. It's about, you know, spirituality. I think that's
Speaker 1: those are the stories. It's just about like you know
Speaker 1: how old houses that you know you don't go into
Speaker 1: at certain times or were left vacant for too long.
Speaker 1: My grandmother would tell stories about that. I grew up
Speaker 1: um being told never to be outside um at magreve
Speaker 1: at sunset with my hair loose, right, the same thing,
Speaker 1: same thing. And I am now a mother of three
Speaker 1: children and my eldest daughter is seventeen with long hair,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not happening five right.
Speaker 1: She's like Mom, I like no, no, no, there's a
Speaker 1: tree right there. You're not. Oh my god, yes, you've
Speaker 1: gotta bring home a gin in your hair. Basically, they're
Speaker 1: going to be like infatuating because of the stories we
Speaker 1: were told. You know, like everybody was under a tree
Speaker 1: in in India. It's always right, so it's in the
Speaker 1: tree in India, and like they had long hair, and
Speaker 1: then a jin fell in love with her. The next thing,
Speaker 1: you know, she became possessed or she became you know, connected,
Speaker 1: and it would make and I'm stating they're going as
Speaker 1: a very you know, rational human being going to the
Speaker 1: probably other issues there too, but what if not and
Speaker 1: what's not is enough to say get inside. It's like
Speaker 1: do you want to test the theory? Right? Like do
Speaker 1: you really want to push this envelope? I totally get it.
Speaker 1: For for those of our listeners who might not be
Speaker 1: familiar with what a Sufi or Sufism is, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like a methodology of practicing the religion of Islam,
Speaker 1: but it's like more of a mystical esoteric, right. I
Speaker 1: guess like in in Judaism you have the Kabbalah. It's
Speaker 1: I guess, may I don't know enough about it to
Speaker 1: say it's similar, but it's it's basically like that. So
Speaker 1: you have people who are like very very fundamentalist, very Orthodox,
Speaker 1: and you have people who are like Sufis were like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's all about the spirit of the religion and then
Speaker 1: this that So, yeah, you're right, I do think that
Speaker 1: like for families, for Sufi families, Now, my family was
Speaker 1: not a super family. They were very kind of orthodox
Speaker 1: traditional my mother, I would say, straight up like hobby type.
Speaker 1: But so nobody told of these stories in our family,
Speaker 1: and I was um starved for them. I heard about
Speaker 1: it from all like the other uh Muslim families that
Speaker 1: we grew up with, where they did talk about this
Speaker 1: and then I would love to trade stories. Have you
Speaker 1: experienced things that you believe are inexplicable or the supernatural
Speaker 1: in your life? Absolutely? Absolutely? When is the first time
Speaker 1: that happened? How young were you? Honestly? Um, One of
Speaker 1: the first things I remember was back when I was
Speaker 1: probably seven or eight. Yeah, I mean way back ago,
Speaker 1: long ago, where um, you know, we were living this
Speaker 1: little one bedroom apartments in Brooklyn, like little crapple in Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: and we're very poor, and we had this five of
Speaker 1: us lived in this one bedroom apartment and I remember,
Speaker 1: um my brother coming in barging into my room, my
Speaker 1: our room, our one bedroom. I was sitting there, I
Speaker 1: was like seven or eight, and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you? Like why you why do you
Speaker 1: keep going to the bathroom? And I'm like, I haven't
Speaker 1: left the room, I said, and he clearly so. And
Speaker 1: I had very short hair. I was a tom very
Speaker 1: short hair, you know tom boy bull cut salth Asian
Speaker 1: look going back then. And I think we also that
Speaker 1: at one heard that, but he uh yeah, he saw
Speaker 1: this little what he thought was like me, but he
Speaker 1: was like a like a little boy that just kept
Speaker 1: going from the bedroom to the bathroom, right, And that
Speaker 1: was the first time I was like kind of like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's weird because it's just you know, we're latch key kids.
Speaker 1: It was just me and him, So I was seven,
Speaker 1: he was twelve, right, really strange and so of course
Speaker 1: you know, that's started freaking me out. And then I
Speaker 1: saw The Exorcists, which still gives me, um nightmares and
Speaker 1: just ruined me for life. And that was sort of
Speaker 1: the first and I was like, okay, that that's different.
Speaker 1: And you know, when we go to focus on my family,
Speaker 1: my grandmother would tell stories about you know, this house
Speaker 1: where the light would come on and stuff. I remember
Speaker 1: going to a wedding and my cousin was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that house and you know past the tendency that that's
Speaker 1: that's the house that you know, and now I was
Speaker 1: talking about was like a light was on. So of
Speaker 1: course it freaked me out. Um, but yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's right then. But I think as I got older,
Speaker 1: you know, um, you know, we were to like in
Speaker 1: our family and stuff that like that. That kind of
Speaker 1: weird stuff is very strong in the women. And so
Speaker 1: like my mother, you know, used to have like dreams
Speaker 1: and they would come true and stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was just something that was part of
Speaker 1: our our life, like we knew, you know, none that
Speaker 1: was a certain way. My mother was a certain way
Speaker 1: and around for us, the girls around their team would start,
Speaker 1: you know, like having experiences. So have you had like
Speaker 1: premanitive like premonitions as well like a mother? Yea, no, definitely,
Speaker 1: I I do. My daughter, does you know? Really? So? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's straight it's straight through like it and it
Speaker 1: was a Sufi shif once I told our family that
Speaker 1: it's very strong through the line of the mother. Oh wow.
Speaker 1: And then I've heard this over and over again, Um
Speaker 1: that these kinds of abilities, however you want to understand them,
Speaker 1: do seem to have a family connection. Oftentimes it's put
Speaker 1: through women, but I have I have friends who are
Speaker 1: male who also have said that they, like their elders,
Speaker 1: had some somebody in their family, had some kind of
Speaker 1: experience or had kind of ability, and they feel like
Speaker 1: they've kind of inherited it. So that experience when you
Speaker 1: were seven, did that scare you at the time, or
Speaker 1: you were you just like, oh, yeah, I understand that
Speaker 1: my not not told me about this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Remember my nanny or whatever. Yeah, because I was saying,
Speaker 1: they're going, okay, why why is there a little kid
Speaker 1: in the house. Oh my god, there's a little kid
Speaker 1: in the house. And I then the next year I
Speaker 1: saw The Exorcist because I saw it by myself in
Speaker 1: my house God, and watched but my sister told me
Speaker 1: I could watch it, so as soon as everybody was
Speaker 1: out of the house, I put it in. That was
Speaker 1: terrible ideas an eight year old, terrible idea, and it
Speaker 1: literally to this day, I'm in my forties, I hear
Speaker 1: that theme song and I throw up. Oh really that
Speaker 1: deeply internalized. Yeah, that was one. That's one of the
Speaker 1: most terrifying, even though in many ways, if you go
Speaker 1: back and watch it now, like kind of from a
Speaker 1: like a detached perspective, it seems kind of hokey. Obviously
Speaker 1: the effects are right. I never watched it again, You'll
Speaker 1: never watch it again. It lives inside your head anyways.
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about um as you're
Speaker 1: growing up. So then after that, after experience, when your seven.
Speaker 1: Do you think that was kind of like when the
Speaker 1: doors opened for you, when the veils were lifted a bit.
Speaker 1: I think so. I think it's when I kind of
Speaker 1: understood that because remember, you know, kind of growing up
Speaker 1: and more stories in the family and kind of you know, looking,
Speaker 1: I already knew my mother, you know, could like predict
Speaker 1: things she would see. For my mom, she always saw death,
Speaker 1: like she always knew when something was going to die,
Speaker 1: and so she would she would see it in the
Speaker 1: dream and so she would always be upset and crying no,
Speaker 1: and then it would happen within a day or two, right,
Speaker 1: So like, okay, many of these things existed, and um,
Speaker 1: so to that end, it was just kind of like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, I know it exists, so it's fine. When
Speaker 1: I was about and like seventeen or so, like my
Speaker 1: my brother was always into weird stuff, and so he
Speaker 1: was like he decided to start looking at like tarot
Speaker 1: cards and you know, things like that, and you know,
Speaker 1: he taught me how to do them. And that was
Speaker 1: I think, um, when things got very weird, because then
Speaker 1: there was that point where like everybody in the family
Speaker 1: started having weird experiences like where you know, like a
Speaker 1: woman with long hair and stuff. And it was interesting
Speaker 1: because multiple people, um that weren't related to us would come.
Speaker 1: You know, we had a lot of family members that
Speaker 1: you know, when they immigrated to the USK in our
Speaker 1: house first, and so in the basement when you're in
Speaker 1: New York, you're like the port of entry. And at
Speaker 1: that point, we actually moved from New Jersey to New
Speaker 1: Jersey and when I was seventeen, so we had a
Speaker 1: house house, so we had a house at the base,
Speaker 1: and so definitely people were staying with us, and uh,
Speaker 1: we created this little area in the downstairs. And I
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times, like relatives told us
Speaker 1: years later that you know, they thought I was down
Speaker 1: because I was own. My family had long hair at
Speaker 1: that point, I was short, and so how many of
Speaker 1: my family members would wonder why I'd be standing in
Speaker 1: the basement when they were in bed, you know, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, I just got chills. And one of them
Speaker 1: thought I was away and then I want to wait
Speaker 1: to college. And one of my other cousins years later
Speaker 1: said that he asked my mom, but when did Shining
Speaker 1: come home? And She's like, no, shs await college. And
Speaker 1: he didn't say anything, and then later on, you know,
Speaker 1: later on years later he said, yeah, you know, and
Speaker 1: my brother's friend, who's a white guy, refused to sleep
Speaker 1: in the biggest hung out at our house. Once left,
Speaker 1: and then he came back and he was again in
Speaker 1: the couch. You know, that's that's crazy, okay. So um,
Speaker 1: but I remember when we talked about this a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, whenever it was now, you told me
Speaker 1: about what happened when you your family moved overseas, and
Speaker 1: little me, I see this because you are married. Where's
Speaker 1: your husband on the spect on the spectrum is he's
Speaker 1: like I don't know about this stuff, or he's like
Speaker 1: totally in oh no. He was really like whatever. When
Speaker 1: we first got married, he's like I don't believe any
Speaker 1: of it, like you're you know, because he thinks he actually,
Speaker 1: you know, his family as his Canadian and his family
Speaker 1: was like the bleak you know people, so they used
Speaker 1: to get more orthodox Orthodox and stuff. So he knew that,
Speaker 1: you know, he had spoken of people. He knew there
Speaker 1: were things, but he was like whatever, right, and he
Speaker 1: just thought, you know, it was nothing. I remember I
Speaker 1: was pregnant with my daughter, my first kid, and we
Speaker 1: had to move home for a little bit before we
Speaker 1: join the place. I was living at my parents house
Speaker 1: for a little bit while I was pregnant e sevent
Speaker 1: eight months pregnant, couldn't sleep through the night, and he
Speaker 1: comes in the room waking me up, and I'm piste off,
Speaker 1: like okay, I can't sleep to the night and eight
Speaker 1: it's pregnant already. And he's like, you need to come
Speaker 1: downstairs with me, and I'm like why. He's just like,
Speaker 1: just I need to get some water. Can you come
Speaker 1: downstairs with me? And this is my husband is a
Speaker 1: big man. He's a big, all thronged, you know, broad
Speaker 1: man who doesn't look like he would need his five
Speaker 1: for tall pregnant wife to come downstairs. Um, we go
Speaker 1: down the stairs, he goes you know, I'm standing there
Speaker 1: and he's like, I'll tell you tomorrow. And then the
Speaker 1: next day he said that as he was Um, the
Speaker 1: reason he did was because he never leaved anything. And
Speaker 1: then he came was coming down the stairs at like
Speaker 1: three o'clock in the morning to get water, and we
Speaker 1: had a mirror that was like right opposite the stairs,
Speaker 1: and he's like he's looking, you know, as he's coming
Speaker 1: down he's looking in the mirror, but instead he's he's
Speaker 1: seeing a woman with long hair, and yeah, and then
Speaker 1: he's like me out and later he's I could never happened.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, but I never described what I what
Speaker 1: the woman looked like. He described her to me, right,
Speaker 1: because I never told him what you look like? He
Speaker 1: described her. It was literally the same old woman that
Speaker 1: I like, old and long hair that I I know
Speaker 1: and like my family because I mentioned it to them, knew,
Speaker 1: but no, and he described again. He's like a perspective.
Speaker 1: He thought I was down. Apparently everyone thinks of an
Speaker 1: old crazyman, right me, but he thought and then he
Speaker 1: really think. He's like, I just left her in bed.
Speaker 1: It can't be shy, right, And so that in that
Speaker 1: minute where he his brain was processing, it was gone.
Speaker 1: And that's when he came and got me. So let
Speaker 1: me ask you. So, it sounds like a lot of
Speaker 1: people have seen like this apparition, this woman, but other
Speaker 1: than just kind of appearing, has she ever done anything,
Speaker 1: spoken to anybody, moved anything, has anybody? Yeah, we had
Speaker 1: this um prayer, just like a prayer somebody gotten us
Speaker 1: from a Saudi or Saudi Arabia, right, that was hanging
Speaker 1: on our It's like an engraving or something like that.
Speaker 1: It was like an engraved piece that had a glass
Speaker 1: on it, you know, but it was a good glass
Speaker 1: and um, it was standing and we'd had it, you
Speaker 1: know for years, and it was nothing. And then you know,
Speaker 1: one day, like my brother was sleeping downstairs and the
Speaker 1: living he was just sleeping on the couch and then
Speaker 1: like it was this wow bang, right, this loud bang,
Speaker 1: and this like this thing basically which was hanging just split,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just split like in two. It
Speaker 1: split into like the glass was completely shut. And we're
Speaker 1: like all coybe was pressure or something, but it wasn't.
Speaker 1: And there there was one the time I never told
Speaker 1: anybody about what I'd seen until I was There was
Speaker 1: this one time where I was actually because I thought
Speaker 1: me about sleep dreaming or whatever you're in that weird place.
Speaker 1: I was, Um, I was awake and I was talking
Speaker 1: to my best friend on the phone, and my parents,
Speaker 1: you know, strict bucks and your parents were like, you know,
Speaker 1: you have to be in bed by midnight, no talking
Speaker 1: anybody because were talking to boys kind of a thing, right.
Speaker 1: So I was on the phone with my best friend
Speaker 1: at like one o'clock in the morning, and I look
Speaker 1: up and I'm fully awake, right, like my lights are
Speaker 1: off and the whole all the lights and out from
Speaker 1: the house. But I look up and um, I see
Speaker 1: this woman in the doorway, and I think it's my
Speaker 1: mom because my mom is also you know, short whatever,
Speaker 1: and I'm on, like a crap, I'm telling my friend.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, I'm in al right, Like,
Speaker 1: my my mom is here in the door and she's
Speaker 1: yelling at She's gonna yell at me. And then that's
Speaker 1: when this thing like rushed with his mouth open scream
Speaker 1: like I didn't hear because see it. And then my
Speaker 1: friend was like and I'm like, oh my god. My
Speaker 1: friend is on the phone right and she also like
Speaker 1: on the phone and like I'm like, I and what happened?
Speaker 1: Did your Mom's your mom throw something at you? Would happen?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm going to get back to you
Speaker 1: in a minute. And I was like, I just saw
Speaker 1: something weird. And then I went to my mom. My
Speaker 1: mom's knocked out. My mom and my dad like knocked
Speaker 1: out sleeping, And that's the first time I told my
Speaker 1: family and stuff and that's when, you know, like they
Speaker 1: were like little things here and there. I think people
Speaker 1: have picked up on stuff and you don't talk about
Speaker 1: it because it's crazy and you know, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: for me at this point, I'm like, you know, their
Speaker 1: ghost stories and if you believe it, you believe it.
Speaker 1: If you don't, you don't. You know. So this woman,
Speaker 1: this woman came rushing at you with her mouth open
Speaker 1: and then just what poof disappeared at the foot of
Speaker 1: the bed. At the foot of the bed. Can you
Speaker 1: describe what she looked like? Yeah, she was. She was short, right,
Speaker 1: so probably like this short woman kind of um like
Speaker 1: long hair, like long hair centered parted but like straggly,
Speaker 1: like it wasn't straight. It was straight, but like you know,
Speaker 1: like and her face. I can't remember the details of
Speaker 1: the face other than it was very like the mouth
Speaker 1: was just very wide and like, you know, her eyes
Speaker 1: were kind of squinting because she was her mouth was
Speaker 1: just really really open, you know. And I didn't luckily
Speaker 1: see her again for many years until my dad was
Speaker 1: in Bokistan when you know, he had gotten sick. He
Speaker 1: had a heart attack in Pokistan. We had been in
Speaker 1: Bokkistan for two weeks with him. Come back. Um, I'm
Speaker 1: sleeping in my room. My brother is sleeping in the
Speaker 1: other room in his room, and my parents were both
Speaker 1: in Pokisan, and it was the first night we were back.
Speaker 1: You know, I wake up and she was like literally
Speaker 1: standing at the same foot at the bed, and I screamed.
Speaker 1: And that's when my brother came running in and he's like,
Speaker 1: what happened? As he came running in, she was She's gone.
Speaker 1: But then he believed me because at that point he
Speaker 1: told me that he had seen her as well. So
Speaker 1: you know, he pulled his mattress to the hallway and
Speaker 1: like slept in the doorways. Oh my god. Did you
Speaker 1: guys ever do any research about like whether there was
Speaker 1: somebody connected to the house and the description and you're
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who she was, what she wanted. No,
Speaker 1: you know, honestly, I think that what it was, because
Speaker 1: my my mom got very upset when she found out
Speaker 1: my brother had been doing tarot cards and and things
Speaker 1: like that. She's like, you know, you opened doorways and portables,
Speaker 1: and it's so weird because these are literal conversations that
Speaker 1: we would have in our home right, like people talk
Speaker 1: about buying cereal and my mom's telling at us about
Speaker 1: like don't open mortals sale and you know, did you
Speaker 1: guys do the Buiji board too? No, that is one
Speaker 1: thing I avoided, like the plague, because I just I know,
Speaker 1: I was like, I would never do that. That those
Speaker 1: those things scared me. It's too much of an invitation.
Speaker 1: That's way too much. And it was one of those
Speaker 1: things that like even the tarot cards, like once that
Speaker 1: stuff started, we were like, yeah, I know, my brother
Speaker 1: put those away and like, but at that point, whatever
Speaker 1: was happening was in the house already. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back after the short break. So when you when you
Speaker 1: got married, you moved out or you we went overseas.
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like this particular entity was kind
Speaker 1: of it was at the house. It was connected the house.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like some some they say, some gin will
Speaker 1: attach to people, so wherever that person goes, they end
Speaker 1: up just following that person. I know, somebody like that
Speaker 1: who hasn't had that experience. Um, and so she sees
Speaker 1: the same thing over and over, um, the same experiences
Speaker 1: over and about where she moves and then others kind
Speaker 1: of remain in there, but you moved overseas at some
Speaker 1: point in your life, right as an adult or after
Speaker 1: you had kids or I don't know when. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: moved to Egypt um when after I had had my
Speaker 1: second son, So when he was three months old. My
Speaker 1: my like my kids, and I moved to each of
Speaker 1: My husband stayed in the US for another year and
Speaker 1: then he came with us. Yeah, and so's thirty by then.
Speaker 1: I think, okay, And so I remember you telling me
Speaker 1: about the experiences you had in this home over there, right,
Speaker 1: so let's talk about that. Yeah, And just to be clear,
Speaker 1: like honestly, you know, there's a lot of you know, discussion,
Speaker 1: you know about things falling because you know, we've had experiences,
Speaker 1: like all of us in different ways, you know, and
Speaker 1: different things like moving and different things happening. You know
Speaker 1: what people you know saying things. So I actually I
Speaker 1: understand what your friend is talking about as well, because
Speaker 1: these are conversations. So we've had so, yeah, that woman
Speaker 1: stayed there. But you know, who knows, right, if people
Speaker 1: are attached or not. When I is, we lived in Cairo,
Speaker 1: was generally okay. In Cairo. There's a couple of times
Speaker 1: you know, little things that happened here and there, but
Speaker 1: um loge and my daughter. But then when we moved
Speaker 1: to Dubai, that's when everything kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: that was the point where I'm just like, Okay, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm not because there was still moments where I thought
Speaker 1: I was crazy. I was just like I'm crazy, and
Speaker 1: I'm like day dreaming or we're half asleep, or you're right,
Speaker 1: you're tired, right, and you know, because I'm a rational
Speaker 1: human being who well, and I'm the person that will
Speaker 1: justify it in some rational means as much as possible.
Speaker 1: Right before I get um, when we lived in Dubai,
Speaker 1: we actually moved into this really beautiful villa that was
Speaker 1: right next to a mosque. Right, I'm thinking, it's next
Speaker 1: to a mosque. How much safer could you see? How
Speaker 1: much spiritually safer could you be? Like it's perfect? And
Speaker 1: then you know, um, a couple of weeks into it,
Speaker 1: you know, I kept my husband had to go back
Speaker 1: to the US for something for work, so I was
Speaker 1: just me. It was really it was like a five
Speaker 1: bedroom house. My kids are sleeping in their room, I'm
Speaker 1: in my room and like we're and I'm just hearing
Speaker 1: the cabinets in the kitchen going bang bang bang really
Speaker 1: really loud, and you know, I'm thinking, okay, and we
Speaker 1: you know, obviously you're in Dubai. You always have like
Speaker 1: you have domestic help in Duvice. So I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: it was our it was my kids nanny and she's
Speaker 1: pissed or something and she's banging things. And I went
Speaker 1: downstairs and all the lights are off, nobody's there, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't happening. So I'm like, okay, that's weird. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm come back. I'm telling my husband. He said, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, it's probably how settling or something. Right, we're
Speaker 1: sleeping and then the same thing my weeks us up,
Speaker 1: boom boom boom. My husband's like, that's gotta be the nanny.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, and your husband, you heard it too,
Speaker 1: because we were broke away that at that point. And
Speaker 1: then you know, it was just constant. Then a little
Speaker 1: bit we go back to sleep. A little while later,
Speaker 1: we're hearing footsteps going up because it was like marble
Speaker 1: steps because you know, like when you want to buy
Speaker 1: they have a lot of more ornate kind of think
Speaker 1: these marble steps, and we're hearing like footsteps on the step, like,
Speaker 1: and he's like's are the kids sleep walking? Because we're
Speaker 1: thinking it's the kids, it's something, and you know, he
Speaker 1: opens the doors. Nothing there, so we're like, all right,
Speaker 1: this is weird. And then we go and my husband said,
Speaker 1: you know what, just let's just put if somebody is
Speaker 1: moving around the house, we'll put like there was this
Speaker 1: kid's gate. There's this wooden kid's gate that we had
Speaker 1: put it, and that was across the top of the stairs.
Speaker 1: Because my younger son was about three, we moved there.
Speaker 1: So we're like, you know, if he falls down the stairs,
Speaker 1: it's marble, really hurt himself. So we had this kids
Speaker 1: so you know, like if somebody they know, they would
Speaker 1: bang into it because they wouldn't know that it was
Speaker 1: up there, right, So we had it and you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of nights nothing. A couple of nights later,
Speaker 1: we're going hearing the banging downstairs. So we wakes both
Speaker 1: of us up. You know, my husband grabs a bat, right,
Speaker 1: he's like waiting now or he's got a bat. And
Speaker 1: at that point and we were sitting up in bed
Speaker 1: and we can hear it clearly footsteps going up the thing.
Speaker 1: The footsteps are coming up the stairway towards your room.
Speaker 1: Where's our room? The stairs go and then there's like
Speaker 1: a landing and then right and directly in front was
Speaker 1: my bedroom, and then the bedroom to the left was
Speaker 1: my kid's bedroom, and then we had a guest bedroom
Speaker 1: in office to the rights. It was a big house, right,
Speaker 1: so we're like kind of a dead center. So it's
Speaker 1: coming up the thing, and you know, I, I'm scared.
Speaker 1: So we had like actually that night closed the door
Speaker 1: because I was getting a little creep out. I thinking
Speaker 1: maybe the somebody probably around the house. You know, there
Speaker 1: were a lot of robberies in du buying that area.
Speaker 1: So that's my husband at the bat. The doors closed
Speaker 1: and the kids doors closed, our doors closed, and then
Speaker 1: we hear the footstep. My husband's got the bat now
Speaker 1: he's like piste off. He's ready to do whatever, right,
Speaker 1: and then we hear the thing slide the gate, the gates.
Speaker 1: We hear it. My husband jumps up and he opens
Speaker 1: the door and there's no there's nobody there there and
Speaker 1: like the gate is open. The gate was open and
Speaker 1: we had closed it. So that was like the beginning,
Speaker 1: and then it just accelerated after that, like I was,
Speaker 1: you know, downstairs, my husband and I were watching Game
Speaker 1: of Thrones downstairs. The kids are in like in bed,
Speaker 1: you know, sleeping, and they had a bunk bed in
Speaker 1: their room, and all of a sudden, my daughter starts
Speaker 1: screaming bloody murder. So I remember jumping out of the couch,
Speaker 1: like running up the stairs. My husband's following me, right,
Speaker 1: And she had she would sleep on the top bunk
Speaker 1: and we had when those kids tents that went over
Speaker 1: the top bunk, you know, they have kids tents. So
Speaker 1: she used to like sleeping in his kid's tent. And
Speaker 1: she's screw dreaming inside this tent, right, And I run upstairs.
Speaker 1: I opened the tent and she is just pale and screaming,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what's wrong? And she's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I woke up and I I saw this you know,
Speaker 1: shadow like outside of my tent, and I thought it
Speaker 1: was you, right, And she opened the tent and she's like, mom,
Speaker 1: it was not you, right, And then she's like and
Speaker 1: then it disappeared, and that's when she started screaming. And
Speaker 1: she was six or seven, right, and she saw did
Speaker 1: she see a person? She described what she said she
Speaker 1: saw a woman, and she said, like she saw the
Speaker 1: wind shadow, and then when she opened the thing, she
Speaker 1: saw like a woman for like a fraction of a
Speaker 1: second and then she disappeared. But she's like I clearly,
Speaker 1: She's like, I thought it was you, right, And I
Speaker 1: was sitting up and I opened it. I just keep
Speaker 1: getting chills. I just keep getting chills up and down
Speaker 1: my body. Gary. It was really sCOD because it was
Speaker 1: one of those things that I'm just like, this is crazy,
Speaker 1: and I'm just a really respected journalist covering the Middle
Speaker 1: Eastern and I'm going and I'm tired, Like I'm going
Speaker 1: into work and I'm tired. And then it was funny.
Speaker 1: I told my boss, who was um a small and
Speaker 1: she's one of my best friend. She's a smaller Canadian woman,
Speaker 1: so she's Muslim too, and I told her about this
Speaker 1: stuff and she was like, Okay, that's really weird and scary.
Speaker 1: So she's like, you know, read like something from the Koran,
Speaker 1: and you know, this is the conversation having with my
Speaker 1: boss in the newsroom about and so it's just sort
Speaker 1: of crazy. And then we're just doing it. And then
Speaker 1: it just started accelerating, accelerating with the banging and this,
Speaker 1: and then then our housemaid or nanny told us the
Speaker 1: same thing. She would she would do it too. So
Speaker 1: she actually one day I come home and she was
Speaker 1: she was Christian, and she apparently while we were awakey
Speaker 1: at work, she went to the church and she got
Speaker 1: all this holy water, so all over our house. But
Speaker 1: these crosses, holy oil. Whatever works, man, whatever works. And
Speaker 1: he's like, are you mad, And I'm like, nope, I'm good.
Speaker 1: Something's gonna work. It's good. I'm sitting here playing like Karan,
Speaker 1: you can have lumpthing's gonna work right right, And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean then it was just started accelerating more and more,
Speaker 1: and then it came really really common, to the point
Speaker 1: like we lived there. Maybe I had to be terrifying
Speaker 1: for the kids to write, well, that's the thing. Eventually
Speaker 1: we all wounded up sleeping in the same room. We
Speaker 1: had a five rough house and the kids in their room,
Speaker 1: and so we had a king size bed. My husband's like,
Speaker 1: this stinks. I'm gonna go sleep in the guest room.
Speaker 1: Why so me and my two kids are sleeping in
Speaker 1: the room. He's sleeping in the guest room. Does it
Speaker 1: a week and then comes back and he said nope,
Speaker 1: pulls a mattress out and starts sleeping on the floor
Speaker 1: in this room. And I'm like, what, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1: Wanted to sleep in the guest room And he's like, okay,
Speaker 1: so I was sleeping right, and he's sitting when he's sleeping,
Speaker 1: and clearly he's like somebody pulled his foot. He's like
Speaker 1: he pulled his foot and filted him awake. He thought
Speaker 1: it was me, And he's like what and he looks
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, nobody there, and he he was
Speaker 1: just so he's like, maybe it's a good gin because
Speaker 1: it was like fund your time, and I was sleeping
Speaker 1: through it, so maybe it was just waking me up
Speaker 1: for prayers or something. Right, get up, get up and pray.
Speaker 1: But he was just like, nope, I'm not going back
Speaker 1: in there. So by the end, because it was happening
Speaker 1: so much, we would all sleep in one room. And
Speaker 1: I'll sell you the reason I forgot why. The reason
Speaker 1: we started doing that was because my daughter was having
Speaker 1: tough time sleeping in her She kept getting up the
Speaker 1: middle of the night and coming to my room. And
Speaker 1: you know, my son with something, he was pretty sleeper,
Speaker 1: but you know she would always come down. And one
Speaker 1: night by you know, I wake up and I looked
Speaker 1: at the door and I see my daughter, you know,
Speaker 1: I see him, like I see the same size my daughter,
Speaker 1: short short South Asian short hair, right she's standing there,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, you know, baby, you can come in,
Speaker 1: come in the bed, go ahead, and you know, and
Speaker 1: then I like move move to make room for her
Speaker 1: in the bed, and she's already lying there. So I look, Mike,
Speaker 1: shack and stop it, you keep give me. I'm so
Speaker 1: freaking out. It was really scary, and I'm she's already
Speaker 1: lying there in between my husband and myself. And then
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm looking and I look back and then
Speaker 1: not only at this point, I'm awake, now come sitting
Speaker 1: up right, and I'm looking and I look back and think,
Speaker 1: and I still see this little shadow of like this
Speaker 1: little kid, but now I see a woman right behind
Speaker 1: the kid, right like, and it looked like a woman
Speaker 1: like niob like I look like a woman in a
Speaker 1: work like right behind and that's where I'm like banging
Speaker 1: on my husband's arm and I'm like waking him up.
Speaker 1: And so I grabbed my son and I was like no,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let to sleepy himself in his room, right, So,
Speaker 1: like all of us started sleeping in one room that's
Speaker 1: where my as we went to the other room asleep
Speaker 1: and then came back. So it was like three of
Speaker 1: us in the king's size bed and my husband on
Speaker 1: a mattress on the floor. So at some point when
Speaker 1: I mean, because I feel like, how can you even rest?
Speaker 1: How can you emotionally and physically rest in a house
Speaker 1: where you feel like you're certainly not alone, Like there's
Speaker 1: something that like the psychic toll has to take over time,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be really difficult. So what are you thinking, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we just have to get out of here, or we
Speaker 1: have to find a fix, or what is the long
Speaker 1: term plan? In response to this? Are you just in
Speaker 1: their space and they want you out? What if you
Speaker 1: think was happening? Well that I didn't know what was happening.
Speaker 1: It was really scary. But the problem is when you
Speaker 1: moved overseas, especially if you live in du Buy, you
Speaker 1: have to pay rent for a year and that rent
Speaker 1: gets taken out of your salary. So I could not
Speaker 1: cut the lease for any reason. You know, it would
Speaker 1: have been literally all everyone has still been taken out
Speaker 1: of my salary and I wouldn't been able to afford
Speaker 1: another place because you have to pay for the entire year,
Speaker 1: and like it's not cheap the buy, it's very very
Speaker 1: over priced. Right. So it was one of those things
Speaker 1: that I was like, Okay, we're here, We're stuck here, right,
Speaker 1: And um, was it an old home or what was
Speaker 1: it was newly built? And this is the thing, right,
Speaker 1: So it was it was a newly built home that
Speaker 1: was next to it wasn't like maybe a couple of
Speaker 1: years or something. Oh no, it was actually newly built.
Speaker 1: There was another home that was like maybe a few
Speaker 1: months early. So they had been building this development of
Speaker 1: these really beautiful villas in that area. And I come
Speaker 1: into work one day and there's this newspaper called There
Speaker 1: was this newspaper called Emirates twenty seven in Dubai and
Speaker 1: I come into work and there's a newspaper on my thing,
Speaker 1: and my boss walks up to me. She's like, turn
Speaker 1: to page whatever seven, right, And apparently somebody in Emirate
Speaker 1: wrote an article about how the entire area of Jamara
Speaker 1: three where we lived, was plaguing the British expats, because
Speaker 1: British expats kept moving out because they kept saying it
Speaker 1: was haunted flying it wasn't a freaking newspaper. And like
Speaker 1: then my friend, my boss is like, isn't that your
Speaker 1: neighborhood And I'm like, yes, that's my name. And it's
Speaker 1: all these like people from like all over England and
Speaker 1: Australia are being quoted and they're going, I'm sitting there
Speaker 1: and like glasses are flying off and I see these
Speaker 1: people and all the bang the bangings too much and
Speaker 1: like the rattling in the bank. It was really crazy.
Speaker 1: And then at the very bottom, because apparently they didn't
Speaker 1: know how to write a story, so they put this
Speaker 1: at the very bottom of the buried it was that
Speaker 1: that Terentire neighborhood was built over a graveyard. The whole
Speaker 1: neighborhood had been built over a graveyard. With the Dubai sprawl,
Speaker 1: they just there's not enough space there. Yeah, so they
Speaker 1: had to oh, my god, that built over a graveyard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that can really hurt property values right there, this is
Speaker 1: the buy Okay, that's true. And we stayed there for
Speaker 1: a while. I mean there was one point where I
Speaker 1: remember um sitting up. My husband was like on the mattress,
Speaker 1: and we started, you know, locking our door. At that point,
Speaker 1: we closed our door and we were locking our door,
Speaker 1: and you know, all five, all four of us are
Speaker 1: in the bedroom. We're all sleeping, same banging bang banging
Speaker 1: footsteps with steps. I wake up, you know, my husband
Speaker 1: wakes up. We're like basically sitting there looking at each other,
Speaker 1: and then the footsteps come up and then you stop
Speaker 1: right outside of our door, and my husband was like,
Speaker 1: are you sure maybe there's somebody in the house. Right.
Speaker 1: He's like, because that's really that's right outside there. He
Speaker 1: would whispering to each other and I was like, and
Speaker 1: it just sounds too real. It sounds So he's like,
Speaker 1: I think there's somebody in the house. He's like, I
Speaker 1: think somebody because you know the robberies here. So he
Speaker 1: goes to get the bat and then the door starts
Speaker 1: like the door knobs are shaking, and he's like, holy crap.
Speaker 1: He's like, there's somebody at the door. So he gets
Speaker 1: the bat and he gets opens door over there. Wow.
Speaker 1: And so at what point did your husband go from
Speaker 1: I don't really believe in this stuff too. Oh, this
Speaker 1: is definitely real. I think since he married me married me,
Speaker 1: I think he kind of was just like you hear
Speaker 1: things and then he was like, Okay, now I'm experiencing
Speaker 1: them with you. And I think Dubai really clenched it
Speaker 1: for him. I think that was he was just like,
Speaker 1: all right, you know, these things happened. And we actually
Speaker 1: went to the you know, the mom at the mosque
Speaker 1: connect door um and then apparently everybody, all the Muslims
Speaker 1: in the neighbor that were at the moscow, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that happens in this house, and that happens. It's the
Speaker 1: entire neighborhood in the neighborhood, very common. So the mom
Speaker 1: started talents and you have to do like Suita Bucca
Speaker 1: and you have to have it on play all night.
Speaker 1: And you know, it was one of things that I
Speaker 1: didn't want to tell my mom because I don't want
Speaker 1: people do not come visit right because don't tell them
Speaker 1: about the gin. Come, the beach is lovely, the what
Speaker 1: is great, the shopping is good. Anything, And like my
Speaker 1: sister came and she she actually lived with us when
Speaker 1: she was waiting for her house to be ready. She
Speaker 1: was living to buy. Then she came and lived with
Speaker 1: us like two three months, and then later on she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: your house. Your sister experienced something too, so when you
Speaker 1: came back to the United States. So how long ago
Speaker 1: was that? That was? Um? We left that house two
Speaker 1: thousand twelve Christmas? H did you um sense? Like I'm
Speaker 1: just wondering, like, because you know, people have a sense, uh,
Speaker 1: people have these experiences when sometimes got a sense of
Speaker 1: some kind of overwriting feeling like some people will describe
Speaker 1: like they're being an incredible kind of sadness around this
Speaker 1: entity or or if they feel they can sense like
Speaker 1: malevolence or or anger or something. Did you get any
Speaker 1: get a sense from these apps? From these whatever this
Speaker 1: entity was in the house? I think I think it
Speaker 1: was just it was more like we were in their space,
Speaker 1: in their space, the kid was playful, you know, and
Speaker 1: the kid was playful and wanted somebody was what just
Speaker 1: saying I think the mom I'm I'm projecting here, whoever
Speaker 1: the longer woman was right. I think that she was
Speaker 1: just kind of why why are you in the house
Speaker 1: sort of. I don't think there was anything like malevolent,
Speaker 1: but I just think it was it was scary because
Speaker 1: I like to be in this reality, and I like
Speaker 1: that reality to stay far away from me, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: which which takes me to another question. I mean, so
Speaker 1: you've been told that you have a lineage of of
Speaker 1: of having these abilities, right like, which means if you
Speaker 1: wanted to, you could really cultivate them. Have you thought
Speaker 1: about them? Sometimes? I'm thinking I should, But it's part
Speaker 1: of my family, so I just kind of you know,
Speaker 1: you know, it is what it is. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's also something that like I don't talk about and
Speaker 1: if you were not my friend, I would not be
Speaker 1: talking about it on a podcast. I do appreciate it because, look,
Speaker 1: I know you're putting yourself. I've asked other friends too,
Speaker 1: They're like, do you understand I have a professional reputation
Speaker 1: to protect? That's what my partner doing this, She's like, really, like,
Speaker 1: you know, my work stands for itself. It does, it does,
Speaker 1: it does, And like I said, like, we have a
Speaker 1: whole spectrum of really like people from all kinds of
Speaker 1: different background just not just professional backgrounds, but like religious
Speaker 1: and cultural backgrounds who also are going to be having
Speaker 1: conversations with me around this. So it's been great, Well,
Speaker 1: when can I ask you this? Then? Just as a
Speaker 1: kind of a closing question, when is the last time
Speaker 1: you had an experience that you feel like was the
Speaker 1: supernatural experience? Um, you know, honestly, it was probably like
Speaker 1: a couple a few months ago, so you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like this is like stuff that you know,
Speaker 1: my husband basically like he he told me that I'm
Speaker 1: married into a very annoying family. Right. It's just like
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say to you guys, because
Speaker 1: that's why I'm saying. He's like, you know, obviously there's
Speaker 1: something attached to your family or you draw it or whatever, right,
Speaker 1: but like, um yeah, it was was like kids voices,
Speaker 1: like kid's voices. And I didn't say anything to anybody
Speaker 1: about in your house in my end, like this this
Speaker 1: house that we were renting and not this one with
Speaker 1: the one before that, and like I never said anything
Speaker 1: to anybody. And then um my son, he's like I mentioned,
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, I thought I heard kids playing downstairs
Speaker 1: in the basement, right, And I was like, okay, it's okay, right,
Speaker 1: Well look because I don't because he gets scared, I
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna say anything to him. And then you know,
Speaker 1: I was sleeping one night and then when I actually
Speaker 1: wasn't sleeping, I was supposed to be sleeping, and then
Speaker 1: my husband was snoring. So I left the room and
Speaker 1: I went to my my daughter's room and I was
Speaker 1: just like trying to settle down in my daughter's room
Speaker 1: with her, and then I just heard a music box,
Speaker 1: like really loudly, and we don't have music box, so,
Speaker 1: oh my god, a really loud music box. And you know,
Speaker 1: I got up and I walked to the different rooms
Speaker 1: to try to find it, and I couldn't find it.
Speaker 1: And then I went downstairs to the basement, you know,
Speaker 1: the next day, putting like something away the laundry, and
Speaker 1: then I was like, you know what, there's a kid's
Speaker 1: section in the basement, you know, and it and then
Speaker 1: there was a music box in there. Wow. I have
Speaker 1: a feeling. You have so many, so many, so many stories,
Speaker 1: but it sounds like you have kind of resigned yourself
Speaker 1: to living with these experiences and none of them have
Speaker 1: really felt threatening necessarily, but it's just like they're letting
Speaker 1: you know, we're here. We're just here. It's culture, you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's culture and its religion, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's people are going to say, oh, you know, wow,
Speaker 1: you're crazy or while you know there's this and that's fine.
Speaker 1: That's what faith is, right. I mean, the people say
Speaker 1: the same thing for believing in God. And if you believe,
Speaker 1: they think you're crazy. And you know some people do, yeah,
Speaker 1: some people do, and some people tell you. I mean,
Speaker 1: I figure there are plenty of people who are like
Speaker 1: agnostic or have you know, don't no really have a
Speaker 1: faith tradition, but they might still believe in like something
Speaker 1: a little that they can't explain UFOs or ferries or whatever.
Speaker 1: Maybe something you never know, uh you know, Santa Claus,
Speaker 1: I mean the inexplicable. But anyhow, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I mean, this has been a really it's been a
Speaker 1: fun conversation, even though I've had lots of chills and
Speaker 1: a little bit of a little bit of some scarce too,
Speaker 1: But I really appreciate it, and I I would love
Speaker 1: to continue to talk to you like as you have experience.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you've ever thought about
Speaker 1: like documenting this stuff or like doing your journalists you
Speaker 1: could do a whole like project around it. I could,
Speaker 1: and then I would like to maintain somewhat of my credibility.
Speaker 1: Can you. Please put our listeners how they can find
Speaker 1: your work, especially the Prison Journals and Project UM and
Speaker 1: find you online and follow you. Okay, well, um, you
Speaker 1: can look us up at Prison Journalism Project dot org.
Speaker 1: That is our publication. We're super excited about it and
Speaker 1: you know we're we focus on incarcerated men and women
Speaker 1: formerly incarcerated and incarceration impacted because we understand that the
Speaker 1: impact of people inside is so much wider and that
Speaker 1: net is so huge that we want to hear the
Speaker 1: stories of everyone that's been you know, involved in any way,
Speaker 1: shape or form, whether it's a family member, loved one, friend,
Speaker 1: or even if they worked with people and it's it's
Speaker 1: touched them. So we're always looking for those stories. You
Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at profit Pasha prof Psha
Speaker 1: p R O F p A s h A awesome,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed that conversation
Speaker 1: as much as I did. Now there are as many
Speaker 1: people in the world with JIN stories as there are GIN,
Speaker 1: so if you have one you'd like to share, make
Speaker 1: sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H
Speaker 1: E H I D D E N d j I
Speaker 1: n N at gmail dot com and until next time,
Speaker 1: remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah
Speaker 1: Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with
Speaker 1: executive producer Who's Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick.
Speaker 1: Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. M