WEBVTT - The Old Woman 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.000 Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:30.520 Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:34.120 welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.159 The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.479 people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.800 are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.480 from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.040 and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:55.800 how and why this series came about in a very 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:00.680 personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.479 I hope you really enjoyed the episode. Last week our 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.520 conversation with Professor Ali Alumi, who is you know, scholar 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.120 expert but also a very cool guy. Uh. This week, 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:14.560 I wanted to pivot a little bit. I wanted to 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.280 move a little bit away from the scholar expert field 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.039 and kind of talk to somebody who has had some 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.880 crazy experiences, more like telling stories around the camp fire 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.160 type of vibe. So I have on this week somebody 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.440 who I love dearly, Shaheen Basha. She is just an amazing, 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.640 extraordinary woman in the work that she does and Also, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.680 her stories are freaky. I mean like I first heard 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:38.479 of these stories a couple of years ago and I've 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.200 just remembered them ever since. And I said, Okay, sha Heen, 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.520 I got it. I needed to retell these stories. So 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:45.200 let me tell you a little bit about Shaheen Um 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.280 Shahen is an assistant teaching professor at Penn State University 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.840 and her focus is on mass incarceration and prison education. 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.240 She's a journalist. She's also the co founder and executive 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.600 director of the Prison Journalism Project, which is all about 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.160 providing incarcerated men and women the skills to tell their 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:05.640 own stories through journalism and also giving them a platform 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.200 to publish their stories on She is an award winning 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.680 veteran journalist with twenty years of experience as an international 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:17.200 reporter covering legal and business issues for Thompson Rooters, CNN, 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.160 DAL Jones Newswire. And she's also the co editor of 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.320 the anthology Mirror on the Veil, a collection of personal 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.640 essays on hit job and veiling, and a contributor to 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.840 Burn It Down, an anthology of essays exploring women and anger. 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.920 So let's talk to Shaheen Basha. This is a fun conversation. 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.280 Hope you enjoy it. Hi, and welcome to this week's episode. Shaheen, 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.000 how are you. I'm good, Thank you for having me. 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:44.720 Thank you so much for a green to come on. 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.880 You're incredibly busy person, and I told our listeners a 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:50.160 little bit about your background, but I want you to 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.480 tell our listeners about your work and your own words. Well, 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.600 I'm I've been a journalist for about twenty years, so 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:57.280 I always have that as part of my identity. So 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.240 I'm a journalist. I'm an assistant teaching professor Pence Date, 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.560 and I'm also the co founder and co executive director 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:08.079 of the Prison Journalism Project, which is basically my life work. 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.640 It's um it's my passion project. And what we do 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.320 is we teach incarcerated men and women around UM the 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.520 country how to do journalism, how to express themselves. Uh. 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.519 It's both educational in the sense that we know curriculum, 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.720 we do, you know, we work on textbooks advising all 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.440 of that. But we also have a publication and online 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.680 publication at Prison Journals and Project dot org, and we 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.919 receive submissions from all over the country and we get 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.400 to work with these amazing writers and people that you know, 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.240 the rest of society doesn't know yet, and we're training 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.040 them and like getting their words out. And I'm really 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.120 excited about it because I think, especially right now, when 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.480 it's so possible for people to be forgotten, I think that, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:51.640 you know, the project is really giving them life. And 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.960 I'm really excited about that. Yeah, a lot of people 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.640 don't realize. COVID quarantine has been tough for a lot 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.520 of us. But for those who are incarcerated, they get 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.640 to see no buddy, so they can't even get outside 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:05.280 of their cells. They've lost visitation. It's been really, really 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.560 tremendously difficult. And you know, this work that you're doing 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.080 is so close to my heart. But here's my question, 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.040 and it's a huge I mean, honestly an incredible project 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.800 and a huge project. How do you train them? Isn't 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.680 like virtual or you have people go like how does 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.039 this work? Right now? At the moment. What they do 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:22.840 is they send us their work and you know, we 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.520 edit it and we post it. But from within that, 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.360 we also we reach out to our our men and women. 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.640 We send them. You know, there's definitely send of their 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:32.880 clips on our website. We basically all of our writers 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.960 have a profile page where all of their work gets 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:37.960 put up there and it encouraged. But how do they 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:42.560 hear about you? How do you even know you exist? 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:47.800 A determination? Yeah? Now, um, we we had started basically 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:49.200 last I mean, we've been doing the work. You know, 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:50.880 I've been a professor for a while and I was 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.520 going inside in person to to teach classes on an 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.760 individual basis. But you know, we've been doing the work 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:57.480 for a while. When I moved to Penn State, we 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.640 launched the Prison Journalism Project officially September two thousand nineteen. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.320 Launched our website this year. Um, it was supposed to 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.280 be the work was supposed to be about, you know, 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.600 the training and the education and going inside and curriculated. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.599 The pandemic changed all of that, you know, and we 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.039 realized we didn't want to just put the project on hold. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:15.799 We wanted to evolve it, and we had this idea 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.880 to create this publication and with that, what we found is, 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.040 you know, we started with a really simple medium page 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:23.839 and that blew up. And it partly was word of 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.479 mouth with us, you know, basically talking to people that 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.960 we knew were partnered U with San Quentin News as well, 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.160 and you know, with do my sources and people that 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.560 I worked with before, and then we partnered with the 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.679 American Prison Writing Archive and they connected to the Prison 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.840 Legal News, who met who agreed to put our submissions. 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.760 Call for Free Fantastic was the nicest thing for them 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:45.840 to do, and it just went everywhere. And then Black 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:47.800 and Pink put us in there as well, because we 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:50.359 wanted all these different voices to get you know, to 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.960 get inside. So a lot of it started with that, 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:54.960 and then it just kind of word of mouth just 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.800 kept spreading around the country and now we're getting submissions 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.680 from everywhere, and you know, people are really reaching out 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.560 to us as well, um individually, like what are you 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.520 looking for? So we created um this journalism primer that's 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.719 on our website that you know, we have a section 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:09.640 in the Shared Story so we're writing prompts, so we 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.120 have a primer style guide all of this stuff. Um. 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.839 Sometimes family members will send inside, but oftentimes somebody will 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:18.480 write us and we'll just send it to them and 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.839 then they'll send us stuff back, and you know, we're 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.000 working with that and some people are just happy to 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.720 get you know, a piece out in our poem out 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.840 and be done. And I really want to work on 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.800 their craft, and so we do back and forth with them, 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.599 and through that we're seeing a few writers as set 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.000 group of writers are starting to rise above. So we're 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.520 gonna be launching a contributing writers section, which you know, 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.000 and we're trying to get our guys separately. We work 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.160 with the ones that are really showing promise and really interested, 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.400 where we go back and forth on pieces to get 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.200 them published. One of our guys just got published in 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.000 the Washington Post. That's amazing. Yeah, so we're really insulations. 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.719 Oh my god, what fulfilling work. As I hear you 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.360 talk as prompting all these questions in my mind because 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.680 I'm so interested in this work. But obviously this conversation 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:01.840 is not not about this work. But I do want 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.800 to mention there's two reasons I'm having this conversation though, 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.359 because the first is because I want folks to know 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:08.880 how we first, how we know each other, how we 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.920 first connected. Were you following like the advanced case or 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:15.080 undisclosed if I remember correctly what happened? Was I mean, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.800 I was a huge fan of you know, following the serial, 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.040 you know, and um, I've been talking, you know, because 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:22.680 I just saw so many similarities. You know, I have 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:24.920 a I have a loved one of friends who's incarcerated. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.520 I saw so many similarities that passion for it. And 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.120 it was interesting because my husband is the one that 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.320 reached out to you. He did reach out to me 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.120 and said, listen. He said, I have an incredible wife 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.600 who does incredible work, and I need you to read 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.440 her work. And I was like what, because I have 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.240 never people do reach out and solicit right like they 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.000 want you to like you don't read their work promote it. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:48.320 But I've never had a spouse to that. I thought 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.600 it was so lovely and he was right, and I'm 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:52.320 so glad I did it, and I'm so glad we connected. 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.720 And yeah, there's also that the fact that this work 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:56.440 is very meaningful to you. But okay, but the real 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.640 reason I set folks up before we get into this 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.640 conversation is because no one I wanted listeners to get 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:03.600 an idea of, Like all of our guests has very 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.680 different backgrounds. Everybody having conversations with around this topic of 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.200 gin and the supernatural a very different backgrounds. But I 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.880 also like to like build up your credibility and then 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.720 like I'm not crazy and then bring it crashing down. 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:17.960 And I'm waiting for that to happen to be like oh, 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.840 She's like, oh right, so you are risking some measure 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:23.720 of your credibility. But look, it is what it is. 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.280 You know, you see what you see, your experience, which experience. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.120 So let's like shift the conversation now, because clearly you 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.199 are a reasonable, rational, brilliant, intelligent, accomplished woman. Now let's 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.199 get into the gym stuff. First of all, were you 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.800 raised in like a cultural identity or religious culture that 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.920 had any connection to this phenomenon. Yeah, I mean I'm 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.920 I'm Pakistani American. I mean I was born in New York, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.200 a New Yorker, but um, my family's Pakistani. We're from 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.000 Karachi and you know we're Muslims. So I think for me, 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:56.280 the whole concept of gin and supernatural is not something 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.160 that was outside of our wheel bearer. I mean, this 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.440 is something we grew up with as just you know, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:02.640 you you believe in God, you believe in you know, 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.360 saying you believe in Gin, I mean, you believe in angels. 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:10.280 It wasn't something that was deemed as being crazy that way. Um, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.280 So I remember, you know, my grandmother would be in 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.640 Pakistan and she'd be we'd be lying in bed and 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.520 she would tell stories about like you know, magic and 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.160 Gin and like India, you know, before partition, and that's 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:22.640 just what I kind of grew up with. And then 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:25.600 I think that level of wonder it was just it 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:27.920 was just so normal that that's life that duds us, 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.079 and that's other things out there because that's what our 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.240 religious beliefs and training, you know, said. I think as 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.079 you grow older, you kind of go, oh, I am 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.160 never going to mention this out loud, and you know, 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.360 I can't talk about it, and I don't you know, 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.840 share stories in public about it. But you know, my 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.559 cousins and I had this standing thing that anytime we 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.480 got together, you know, whether it was in Pakistan or 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.679 when they moved here. Even to this day, we tell 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.680 Gin stories. It's just part of like our way of connecting. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.360 I think I was at your house and we started 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.520 telling Jin stories stories. It was great. That was like 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.240 that was a while ago, that was like and haw 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.599 or two years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, it is 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:05.240 very much a thing. And I knew growing up that 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.520 was like the best part of seeing friends other friends 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.080 who actually also shared this belief and I also felt 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.120 like we had this little secret where it's like all 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.400 this other phenomenon that the rest of the world doesn't understand. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.559 We're like, oh, we totally know why it's happening. We 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.160 we can totally explain it to you. Um, but let 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:21.600 me ask you. So when you when you say like 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.400 your grandmother was telling these stories, were these stories that 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.520 frightened you? Like? Were these lessons? Were they like? How 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.520 how did you think about the gin? Honestly I was 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.720 a scaredy cat kid who was scared of everything, and um, 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.840 I was terrified also they were were they scary stories? They? 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:40.520 I don't think they were meant to me. They would 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.880 just sort of like you know, um, you know my grandmother, 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:44.960 you know, we're from our families from lucknow in India, 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.880 and you know, very kind of spiritual in you know, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.400 it's an old place, whole place, very spiritual, very much 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.559 very Sufi, right. So I think also it's when you 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.920 when you're more into Sufism and souf you know, when 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.280 you have those beliefs, you sort of are much more 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.800 open to, you know, the things that are outside of 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.520 your long vision, you know, and the spiritual world is 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.520 just another world to you, because you know, that's what 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:12.280 suphism is. It's about, you know, spirituality. I think that's 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:13.640 those are the stories. It's just about like you know 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.199 how old houses that you know you don't go into 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.839 at certain times or were left vacant for too long. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.360 My grandmother would tell stories about that. I grew up 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.920 um being told never to be outside um at magreve 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.959 at sunset with my hair loose, right, the same thing, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.200 same thing. And I am now a mother of three 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.880 children and my eldest daughter is seventeen with long hair, 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.600 and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not happening five right. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:43.840 She's like Mom, I like no, no, no, there's a 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.679 tree right there. You're not. Oh my god, yes, you've 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.120 gotta bring home a gin in your hair. Basically, they're 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.800 going to be like infatuating because of the stories we 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.280 were told. You know, like everybody was under a tree 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.000 in in India. It's always right, so it's in the 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.200 tree in India, and like they had long hair, and 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.719 then a jin fell in love with her. The next thing, 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.880 you know, she became possessed or she became you know, connected, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.560 and it would make and I'm stating they're going as 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.000 a very you know, rational human being going to the 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.959 probably other issues there too, but what if not and 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.120 what's not is enough to say get inside. It's like 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.400 do you want to test the theory? Right? Like do 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.320 you really want to push this envelope? I totally get it. 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:25.480 For for those of our listeners who might not be 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.120 familiar with what a Sufi or Sufism is, it's kind 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.839 of like a methodology of practicing the religion of Islam, 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.400 but it's like more of a mystical esoteric, right. I 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.240 guess like in in Judaism you have the Kabbalah. It's 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:38.760 I guess, may I don't know enough about it to 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.800 say it's similar, but it's it's basically like that. So 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.480 you have people who are like very very fundamentalist, very Orthodox, 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.000 and you have people who are like Sufis were like, oh, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:46.920 it's all about the spirit of the religion and then 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.440 this that So, yeah, you're right, I do think that 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.880 like for families, for Sufi families, Now, my family was 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.400 not a super family. They were very kind of orthodox 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.360 traditional my mother, I would say, straight up like hobby type. 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.040 But so nobody told of these stories in our family, 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.080 and I was um starved for them. I heard about 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.120 it from all like the other uh Muslim families that 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.120 we grew up with, where they did talk about this 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.560 and then I would love to trade stories. Have you 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.440 experienced things that you believe are inexplicable or the supernatural 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.839 in your life? Absolutely? Absolutely? When is the first time 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.880 that happened? How young were you? Honestly? Um, One of 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.920 the first things I remember was back when I was 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:29.240 probably seven or eight. Yeah, I mean way back ago, 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.960 long ago, where um, you know, we were living this 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:36.280 little one bedroom apartments in Brooklyn, like little crapple in Brooklyn, 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.560 and we're very poor, and we had this five of 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.160 us lived in this one bedroom apartment and I remember, 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:46.120 um my brother coming in barging into my room, my 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.280 our room, our one bedroom. I was sitting there, I 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.080 was like seven or eight, and he's like, you know, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:52.160 what's wrong with you? Like why you why do you 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.240 keep going to the bathroom? And I'm like, I haven't 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.800 left the room, I said, and he clearly so. And 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:00.439 I had very short hair. I was a tom very 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.640 short hair, you know tom boy bull cut salth Asian 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.400 look going back then. And I think we also that 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:11.319 at one heard that, but he uh yeah, he saw 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.680 this little what he thought was like me, but he 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.640 was like a like a little boy that just kept 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.320 going from the bedroom to the bathroom, right, And that 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.240 was the first time I was like kind of like, okay, 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.240 that's weird because it's just you know, we're latch key kids. 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:24.840 It was just me and him, So I was seven, 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.320 he was twelve, right, really strange and so of course 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:29.600 you know, that's started freaking me out. And then I 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.360 saw The Exorcists, which still gives me, um nightmares and 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.720 just ruined me for life. And that was sort of 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.480 the first and I was like, okay, that that's different. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.840 And you know, when we go to focus on my family, 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.320 my grandmother would tell stories about you know, this house 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.680 where the light would come on and stuff. I remember 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:46.520 going to a wedding and my cousin was like, yeah, 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.200 that house and you know past the tendency that that's 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.080 that's the house that you know, and now I was 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:52.920 talking about was like a light was on. So of 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.480 course it freaked me out. Um, but yeah, I think 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:57.920 that's right then. But I think as I got older, 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.240 you know, um, you know, we were to like in 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.280 our family and stuff that like that. That kind of 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.600 weird stuff is very strong in the women. And so 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.640 like my mother, you know, used to have like dreams 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.360 and they would come true and stuff like that, and 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.000 you know, it was just something that was part of 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.240 our our life, like we knew, you know, none that 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:15.840 was a certain way. My mother was a certain way 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.800 and around for us, the girls around their team would start, 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.960 you know, like having experiences. So have you had like 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:27.640 premanitive like premonitions as well like a mother? Yea, no, definitely, 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.600 I I do. My daughter, does you know? Really? So? Yeah, 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:32.720 but it's straight it's straight through like it and it 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.200 was a Sufi shif once I told our family that 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.520 it's very strong through the line of the mother. Oh wow. 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:40.800 And then I've heard this over and over again, Um 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.160 that these kinds of abilities, however you want to understand them, 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.840 do seem to have a family connection. Oftentimes it's put 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.720 through women, but I have I have friends who are 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.880 male who also have said that they, like their elders, 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.080 had some somebody in their family, had some kind of 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:01.440 experience or had kind of ability, and they feel like 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.440 they've kind of inherited it. So that experience when you 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:07.600 were seven, did that scare you at the time, or 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.560 you were you just like, oh, yeah, I understand that 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.160 my not not told me about this kind of stuff. 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:15.320 Remember my nanny or whatever. Yeah, because I was saying, 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.400 they're going, okay, why why is there a little kid 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:19.920 in the house. Oh my god, there's a little kid 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.440 in the house. And I then the next year I 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.360 saw The Exorcist because I saw it by myself in 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.560 my house God, and watched but my sister told me 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.040 I could watch it, so as soon as everybody was 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.640 out of the house, I put it in. That was 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.440 terrible ideas an eight year old, terrible idea, and it 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.120 literally to this day, I'm in my forties, I hear 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.440 that theme song and I throw up. Oh really that 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.120 deeply internalized. Yeah, that was one. That's one of the 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.400 most terrifying, even though in many ways, if you go 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.360 back and watch it now, like kind of from a 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.240 like a detached perspective, it seems kind of hokey. Obviously 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.000 the effects are right. I never watched it again, You'll 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.520 never watch it again. It lives inside your head anyways. 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.320 So tell me a little bit about um as you're 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.480 growing up. So then after that, after experience, when your seven. 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:05.639 Do you think that was kind of like when the 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.800 doors opened for you, when the veils were lifted a bit. 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:09.399 I think so. I think it's when I kind of 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.040 understood that because remember, you know, kind of growing up 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.359 and more stories in the family and kind of you know, looking, 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:17.760 I already knew my mother, you know, could like predict 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:19.760 things she would see. For my mom, she always saw death, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:21.280 like she always knew when something was going to die, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:22.680 and so she would she would see it in the 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.480 dream and so she would always be upset and crying no, 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.040 and then it would happen within a day or two, right, 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.480 So like, okay, many of these things existed, and um, 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.520 so to that end, it was just kind of like, okay, 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:35.800 you know, I know it exists, so it's fine. When 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.600 I was about and like seventeen or so, like my 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:41.679 my brother was always into weird stuff, and so he 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.000 was like he decided to start looking at like tarot 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.960 cards and you know, things like that, and you know, 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.119 he taught me how to do them. And that was 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.360 I think, um, when things got very weird, because then 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.920 there was that point where like everybody in the family 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.199 started having weird experiences like where you know, like a 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.920 woman with long hair and stuff. And it was interesting 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.200 because multiple people, um that weren't related to us would come. 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:04.560 You know, we had a lot of family members that 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.760 you know, when they immigrated to the USK in our 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:08.720 house first, and so in the basement when you're in 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.679 New York, you're like the port of entry. And at 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:13.720 that point, we actually moved from New Jersey to New 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.560 Jersey and when I was seventeen, so we had a 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.000 house house, so we had a house at the base, 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.679 and so definitely people were staying with us, and uh, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:23.240 we created this little area in the downstairs. And I 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.760 can't tell you how many times, like relatives told us 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:27.639 years later that you know, they thought I was down 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:29.199 because I was own. My family had long hair at 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.399 that point, I was short, and so how many of 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.439 my family members would wonder why I'd be standing in 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.200 the basement when they were in bed, you know, Oh 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.119 my god, I just got chills. And one of them 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:41.520 thought I was away and then I want to wait 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.520 to college. And one of my other cousins years later 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.920 said that he asked my mom, but when did Shining 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.800