1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 4 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 5 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences, 6 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons 7 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 8 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 9 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very 10 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy 11 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: I hope you really enjoyed the episode. Last week our 12 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: conversation with Professor Ali Alumi, who is you know, scholar 13 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: expert but also a very cool guy. Uh. This week, 14 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to pivot a little bit. I wanted to 15 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: move a little bit away from the scholar expert field 16 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: and kind of talk to somebody who has had some 17 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: crazy experiences, more like telling stories around the camp fire 18 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: type of vibe. So I have on this week somebody 19 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: who I love dearly, Shaheen Basha. She is just an amazing, 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: extraordinary woman in the work that she does and Also, 21 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: her stories are freaky. I mean like I first heard 22 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: of these stories a couple of years ago and I've 23 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: just remembered them ever since. And I said, Okay, sha Heen, 24 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: I got it. I needed to retell these stories. So 25 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: let me tell you a little bit about Shaheen Um 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: Shahen is an assistant teaching professor at Penn State University 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: and her focus is on mass incarceration and prison education. 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: She's a journalist. She's also the co founder and executive 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: director of the Prison Journalism Project, which is all about 30 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: providing incarcerated men and women the skills to tell their 31 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: own stories through journalism and also giving them a platform 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: to publish their stories on She is an award winning 33 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: veteran journalist with twenty years of experience as an international 34 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: reporter covering legal and business issues for Thompson Rooters, CNN, 35 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: DAL Jones Newswire. And she's also the co editor of 36 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: the anthology Mirror on the Veil, a collection of personal 37 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: essays on hit job and veiling, and a contributor to 38 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: Burn It Down, an anthology of essays exploring women and anger. 39 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: So let's talk to Shaheen Basha. This is a fun conversation. 40 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: Hope you enjoy it. Hi, and welcome to this week's episode. Shaheen, 41 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: how are you. I'm good, Thank you for having me. 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for a green to come on. 43 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: You're incredibly busy person, and I told our listeners a 44 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: little bit about your background, but I want you to 45 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: tell our listeners about your work and your own words. Well, 46 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: I'm I've been a journalist for about twenty years, so 47 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: I always have that as part of my identity. So 48 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. I'm an assistant teaching professor Pence Date, 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: and I'm also the co founder and co executive director 50 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: of the Prison Journalism Project, which is basically my life work. 51 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: It's um it's my passion project. And what we do 52 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: is we teach incarcerated men and women around UM the 53 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: country how to do journalism, how to express themselves. Uh. 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,519 Speaker 1: It's both educational in the sense that we know curriculum, 55 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: we do, you know, we work on textbooks advising all 56 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: of that. But we also have a publication and online 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: publication at Prison Journals and Project dot org, and we 58 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: receive submissions from all over the country and we get 59 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: to work with these amazing writers and people that you know, 60 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: the rest of society doesn't know yet, and we're training 61 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: them and like getting their words out. And I'm really 62 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: excited about it because I think, especially right now, when 63 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: it's so possible for people to be forgotten, I think that, 64 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, the project is really giving them life. And 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: I'm really excited about that. Yeah, a lot of people 66 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: don't realize. COVID quarantine has been tough for a lot 67 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: of us. But for those who are incarcerated, they get 68 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: to see no buddy, so they can't even get outside 69 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: of their cells. They've lost visitation. It's been really, really 70 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: tremendously difficult. And you know, this work that you're doing 71 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: is so close to my heart. But here's my question, 72 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: and it's a huge I mean, honestly an incredible project 73 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: and a huge project. How do you train them? Isn't 74 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: like virtual or you have people go like how does 75 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: this work? Right now? At the moment. What they do 76 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: is they send us their work and you know, we 77 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: edit it and we post it. But from within that, 78 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: we also we reach out to our our men and women. 79 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: We send them. You know, there's definitely send of their 80 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: clips on our website. We basically all of our writers 81 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: have a profile page where all of their work gets 82 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: put up there and it encouraged. But how do they 83 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: hear about you? How do you even know you exist? 84 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: A determination? Yeah? Now, um, we we had started basically 85 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: last I mean, we've been doing the work. You know, 86 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: I've been a professor for a while and I was 87 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: going inside in person to to teach classes on an 88 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: individual basis. But you know, we've been doing the work 89 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: for a while. When I moved to Penn State, we 90 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: launched the Prison Journalism Project officially September two thousand nineteen. 91 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: Launched our website this year. Um, it was supposed to 92 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: be the work was supposed to be about, you know, 93 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: the training and the education and going inside and curriculated. 94 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: The pandemic changed all of that, you know, and we 95 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: realized we didn't want to just put the project on hold. 96 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: We wanted to evolve it, and we had this idea 97 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: to create this publication and with that, what we found is, 98 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, we started with a really simple medium page 99 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: and that blew up. And it partly was word of 100 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: mouth with us, you know, basically talking to people that 101 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: we knew were partnered U with San Quentin News as well, 102 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: and you know, with do my sources and people that 103 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: I worked with before, and then we partnered with the 104 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 1: American Prison Writing Archive and they connected to the Prison 105 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: Legal News, who met who agreed to put our submissions. 106 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: Call for Free Fantastic was the nicest thing for them 107 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: to do, and it just went everywhere. And then Black 108 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: and Pink put us in there as well, because we 109 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: wanted all these different voices to get you know, to 110 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: get inside. So a lot of it started with that, 111 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: and then it just kind of word of mouth just 112 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: kept spreading around the country and now we're getting submissions 113 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: from everywhere, and you know, people are really reaching out 114 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: to us as well, um individually, like what are you 115 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: looking for? So we created um this journalism primer that's 116 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: on our website that you know, we have a section 117 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: in the Shared Story so we're writing prompts, so we 118 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: have a primer style guide all of this stuff. Um. 119 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: Sometimes family members will send inside, but oftentimes somebody will 120 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: write us and we'll just send it to them and 121 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: then they'll send us stuff back, and you know, we're 122 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: working with that and some people are just happy to 123 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: get you know, a piece out in our poem out 124 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: and be done. And I really want to work on 125 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: their craft, and so we do back and forth with them, 126 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: and through that we're seeing a few writers as set 127 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: group of writers are starting to rise above. So we're 128 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: gonna be launching a contributing writers section, which you know, 129 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: and we're trying to get our guys separately. We work 130 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: with the ones that are really showing promise and really interested, 131 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: where we go back and forth on pieces to get 132 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: them published. One of our guys just got published in 133 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: the Washington Post. That's amazing. Yeah, so we're really insulations. 134 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: Oh my god, what fulfilling work. As I hear you 135 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: talk as prompting all these questions in my mind because 136 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm so interested in this work. But obviously this conversation 137 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: is not not about this work. But I do want 138 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: to mention there's two reasons I'm having this conversation though, 139 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: because the first is because I want folks to know 140 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: how we first, how we know each other, how we 141 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: first connected. Were you following like the advanced case or 142 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: undisclosed if I remember correctly what happened? Was I mean, 143 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: I was a huge fan of you know, following the serial, 144 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, and um, I've been talking, you know, because 145 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: I just saw so many similarities. You know, I have 146 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: a I have a loved one of friends who's incarcerated. 147 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: I saw so many similarities that passion for it. And 148 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: it was interesting because my husband is the one that 149 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: reached out to you. He did reach out to me 150 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: and said, listen. He said, I have an incredible wife 151 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: who does incredible work, and I need you to read 152 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: her work. And I was like what, because I have 153 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: never people do reach out and solicit right like they 154 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: want you to like you don't read their work promote it. 155 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: But I've never had a spouse to that. I thought 156 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: it was so lovely and he was right, and I'm 157 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: so glad I did it, and I'm so glad we connected. 158 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: And yeah, there's also that the fact that this work 159 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: is very meaningful to you. But okay, but the real 160 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: reason I set folks up before we get into this 161 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: conversation is because no one I wanted listeners to get 162 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: an idea of, Like all of our guests has very 163 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: different backgrounds. Everybody having conversations with around this topic of 164 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: gin and the supernatural a very different backgrounds. But I 165 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: also like to like build up your credibility and then 166 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: like I'm not crazy and then bring it crashing down. 167 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: And I'm waiting for that to happen to be like oh, 168 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: She's like, oh right, so you are risking some measure 169 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: of your credibility. But look, it is what it is. 170 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: You know, you see what you see, your experience, which experience. 171 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: So let's like shift the conversation now, because clearly you 172 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: are a reasonable, rational, brilliant, intelligent, accomplished woman. Now let's 173 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: get into the gym stuff. First of all, were you 174 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: raised in like a cultural identity or religious culture that 175 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: had any connection to this phenomenon. Yeah, I mean I'm 176 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: I'm Pakistani American. I mean I was born in New York, 177 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: a New Yorker, but um, my family's Pakistani. We're from 178 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: Karachi and you know we're Muslims. So I think for me, 179 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: the whole concept of gin and supernatural is not something 180 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: that was outside of our wheel bearer. I mean, this 181 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: is something we grew up with as just you know, 182 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: you you believe in God, you believe in you know, 183 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: saying you believe in Gin, I mean, you believe in angels. 184 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't something that was deemed as being crazy that way. Um, 185 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: So I remember, you know, my grandmother would be in 186 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: Pakistan and she'd be we'd be lying in bed and 187 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: she would tell stories about like you know, magic and 188 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: Gin and like India, you know, before partition, and that's 189 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: just what I kind of grew up with. And then 190 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: I think that level of wonder it was just it 191 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: was just so normal that that's life that duds us, 192 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: and that's other things out there because that's what our 193 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: religious beliefs and training, you know, said. I think as 194 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: you grow older, you kind of go, oh, I am 195 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: never going to mention this out loud, and you know, 196 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: I can't talk about it, and I don't you know, 197 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: share stories in public about it. But you know, my 198 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: cousins and I had this standing thing that anytime we 199 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: got together, you know, whether it was in Pakistan or 200 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: when they moved here. Even to this day, we tell 201 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: Gin stories. It's just part of like our way of connecting. 202 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: I think I was at your house and we started 203 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: telling Jin stories stories. It was great. That was like 204 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: that was a while ago, that was like and haw 205 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,599 Speaker 1: or two years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, it is 206 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: very much a thing. And I knew growing up that 207 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: was like the best part of seeing friends other friends 208 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: who actually also shared this belief and I also felt 209 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: like we had this little secret where it's like all 210 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: this other phenomenon that the rest of the world doesn't understand. 211 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: We're like, oh, we totally know why it's happening. We 212 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: we can totally explain it to you. Um, but let 213 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: me ask you. So when you when you say like 214 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: your grandmother was telling these stories, were these stories that 215 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: frightened you? Like? Were these lessons? Were they like? How 216 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: how did you think about the gin? Honestly I was 217 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: a scaredy cat kid who was scared of everything, and um, 218 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: I was terrified also they were were they scary stories? They? 219 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: I don't think they were meant to me. They would 220 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: just sort of like you know, um, you know my grandmother, 221 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, we're from our families from lucknow in India, 222 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: and you know, very kind of spiritual in you know, 223 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: it's an old place, whole place, very spiritual, very much 224 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: very Sufi, right. So I think also it's when you 225 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: when you're more into Sufism and souf you know, when 226 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: you have those beliefs, you sort of are much more 227 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: open to, you know, the things that are outside of 228 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: your long vision, you know, and the spiritual world is 229 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: just another world to you, because you know, that's what 230 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: suphism is. It's about, you know, spirituality. I think that's 231 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: those are the stories. It's just about like you know 232 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: how old houses that you know you don't go into 233 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 1: at certain times or were left vacant for too long. 234 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: My grandmother would tell stories about that. I grew up 235 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: um being told never to be outside um at magreve 236 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: at sunset with my hair loose, right, the same thing, 237 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: same thing. And I am now a mother of three 238 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: children and my eldest daughter is seventeen with long hair, 239 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not happening five right. 240 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: She's like Mom, I like no, no, no, there's a 241 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: tree right there. You're not. Oh my god, yes, you've 242 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: gotta bring home a gin in your hair. Basically, they're 243 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: going to be like infatuating because of the stories we 244 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: were told. You know, like everybody was under a tree 245 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: in in India. It's always right, so it's in the 246 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: tree in India, and like they had long hair, and 247 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: then a jin fell in love with her. The next thing, 248 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, she became possessed or she became you know, connected, 249 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: and it would make and I'm stating they're going as 250 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: a very you know, rational human being going to the 251 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: probably other issues there too, but what if not and 252 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: what's not is enough to say get inside. It's like 253 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: do you want to test the theory? Right? Like do 254 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: you really want to push this envelope? I totally get it. 255 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: For for those of our listeners who might not be 256 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: familiar with what a Sufi or Sufism is, it's kind 257 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: of like a methodology of practicing the religion of Islam, 258 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: but it's like more of a mystical esoteric, right. I 259 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: guess like in in Judaism you have the Kabbalah. It's 260 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: I guess, may I don't know enough about it to 261 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: say it's similar, but it's it's basically like that. So 262 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: you have people who are like very very fundamentalist, very Orthodox, 263 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: and you have people who are like Sufis were like, oh, 264 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: it's all about the spirit of the religion and then 265 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: this that So, yeah, you're right, I do think that 266 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: like for families, for Sufi families, Now, my family was 267 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: not a super family. They were very kind of orthodox 268 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: traditional my mother, I would say, straight up like hobby type. 269 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: But so nobody told of these stories in our family, 270 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: and I was um starved for them. I heard about 271 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: it from all like the other uh Muslim families that 272 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: we grew up with, where they did talk about this 273 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: and then I would love to trade stories. Have you 274 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: experienced things that you believe are inexplicable or the supernatural 275 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: in your life? Absolutely? Absolutely? When is the first time 276 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: that happened? How young were you? Honestly? Um, One of 277 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: the first things I remember was back when I was 278 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: probably seven or eight. Yeah, I mean way back ago, 279 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: long ago, where um, you know, we were living this 280 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: little one bedroom apartments in Brooklyn, like little crapple in Brooklyn, 281 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: and we're very poor, and we had this five of 282 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: us lived in this one bedroom apartment and I remember, 283 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: um my brother coming in barging into my room, my 284 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: our room, our one bedroom. I was sitting there, I 285 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: was like seven or eight, and he's like, you know, 286 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: what's wrong with you? Like why you why do you 287 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: keep going to the bathroom? And I'm like, I haven't 288 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: left the room, I said, and he clearly so. And 289 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: I had very short hair. I was a tom very 290 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: short hair, you know tom boy bull cut salth Asian 291 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: look going back then. And I think we also that 292 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: at one heard that, but he uh yeah, he saw 293 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: this little what he thought was like me, but he 294 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: was like a like a little boy that just kept 295 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: going from the bedroom to the bathroom, right, And that 296 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: was the first time I was like kind of like, okay, 297 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: that's weird because it's just you know, we're latch key kids. 298 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: It was just me and him, So I was seven, 299 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: he was twelve, right, really strange and so of course 300 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, that's started freaking me out. And then I 301 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: saw The Exorcists, which still gives me, um nightmares and 302 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: just ruined me for life. And that was sort of 303 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: the first and I was like, okay, that that's different. 304 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: And you know, when we go to focus on my family, 305 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: my grandmother would tell stories about you know, this house 306 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: where the light would come on and stuff. I remember 307 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: going to a wedding and my cousin was like, yeah, 308 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: that house and you know past the tendency that that's 309 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: that's the house that you know, and now I was 310 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: talking about was like a light was on. So of 311 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: course it freaked me out. Um, but yeah, I think 312 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: that's right then. But I think as I got older, 313 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: you know, um, you know, we were to like in 314 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: our family and stuff that like that. That kind of 315 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: weird stuff is very strong in the women. And so 316 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: like my mother, you know, used to have like dreams 317 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: and they would come true and stuff like that, and 318 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, it was just something that was part of 319 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: our our life, like we knew, you know, none that 320 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: was a certain way. My mother was a certain way 321 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: and around for us, the girls around their team would start, 322 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, like having experiences. So have you had like 323 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: premanitive like premonitions as well like a mother? Yea, no, definitely, 324 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: I I do. My daughter, does you know? Really? So? Yeah, 325 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: but it's straight it's straight through like it and it 326 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: was a Sufi shif once I told our family that 327 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: it's very strong through the line of the mother. Oh wow. 328 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: And then I've heard this over and over again, Um 329 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: that these kinds of abilities, however you want to understand them, 330 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: do seem to have a family connection. Oftentimes it's put 331 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: through women, but I have I have friends who are 332 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: male who also have said that they, like their elders, 333 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: had some somebody in their family, had some kind of 334 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: experience or had kind of ability, and they feel like 335 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: they've kind of inherited it. So that experience when you 336 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: were seven, did that scare you at the time, or 337 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: you were you just like, oh, yeah, I understand that 338 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: my not not told me about this kind of stuff. 339 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: Remember my nanny or whatever. Yeah, because I was saying, 340 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: they're going, okay, why why is there a little kid 341 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: in the house. Oh my god, there's a little kid 342 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: in the house. And I then the next year I 343 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: saw The Exorcist because I saw it by myself in 344 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: my house God, and watched but my sister told me 345 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: I could watch it, so as soon as everybody was 346 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: out of the house, I put it in. That was 347 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: terrible ideas an eight year old, terrible idea, and it 348 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: literally to this day, I'm in my forties, I hear 349 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: that theme song and I throw up. Oh really that 350 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: deeply internalized. Yeah, that was one. That's one of the 351 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: most terrifying, even though in many ways, if you go 352 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: back and watch it now, like kind of from a 353 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: like a detached perspective, it seems kind of hokey. Obviously 354 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: the effects are right. I never watched it again, You'll 355 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: never watch it again. It lives inside your head anyways. 356 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about um as you're 357 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: growing up. So then after that, after experience, when your seven. 358 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: Do you think that was kind of like when the 359 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: doors opened for you, when the veils were lifted a bit. 360 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: I think so. I think it's when I kind of 361 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: understood that because remember, you know, kind of growing up 362 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: and more stories in the family and kind of you know, looking, 363 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: I already knew my mother, you know, could like predict 364 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: things she would see. For my mom, she always saw death, 365 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: like she always knew when something was going to die, 366 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: and so she would she would see it in the 367 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: dream and so she would always be upset and crying no, 368 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: and then it would happen within a day or two, right, 369 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: So like, okay, many of these things existed, and um, 370 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: so to that end, it was just kind of like, okay, 371 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: you know, I know it exists, so it's fine. When 372 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: I was about and like seventeen or so, like my 373 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: my brother was always into weird stuff, and so he 374 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: was like he decided to start looking at like tarot 375 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: cards and you know, things like that, and you know, 376 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: he taught me how to do them. And that was 377 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: I think, um, when things got very weird, because then 378 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: there was that point where like everybody in the family 379 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: started having weird experiences like where you know, like a 380 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: woman with long hair and stuff. And it was interesting 381 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: because multiple people, um that weren't related to us would come. 382 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: You know, we had a lot of family members that 383 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, when they immigrated to the USK in our 384 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: house first, and so in the basement when you're in 385 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: New York, you're like the port of entry. And at 386 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: that point, we actually moved from New Jersey to New 387 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: Jersey and when I was seventeen, so we had a 388 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: house house, so we had a house at the base, 389 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: and so definitely people were staying with us, and uh, 390 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: we created this little area in the downstairs. And I 391 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times, like relatives told us 392 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: years later that you know, they thought I was down 393 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: because I was own. My family had long hair at 394 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: that point, I was short, and so how many of 395 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: my family members would wonder why I'd be standing in 396 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: the basement when they were in bed, you know, Oh 397 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: my god, I just got chills. And one of them 398 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: thought I was away and then I want to wait 399 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: to college. And one of my other cousins years later 400 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: said that he asked my mom, but when did Shining 401 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: come home? And She's like, no, shs await college. And 402 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: he didn't say anything, and then later on, you know, 403 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: later on years later he said, yeah, you know, and 404 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: my brother's friend, who's a white guy, refused to sleep 405 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: in the biggest hung out at our house. Once left, 406 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: and then he came back and he was again in 407 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: the couch. You know, that's that's crazy, okay. So um, 408 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: but I remember when we talked about this a couple 409 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: of years ago, whenever it was now, you told me 410 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: about what happened when you your family moved overseas, and 411 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: little me, I see this because you are married. Where's 412 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: your husband on the spect on the spectrum is he's 413 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: like I don't know about this stuff, or he's like 414 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: totally in oh no. He was really like whatever. When 415 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: we first got married, he's like I don't believe any 416 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: of it, like you're you know, because he thinks he actually, 417 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, his family as his Canadian and his family 418 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 1: was like the bleak you know people, so they used 419 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: to get more orthodox Orthodox and stuff. So he knew that, 420 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: you know, he had spoken of people. He knew there 421 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: were things, but he was like whatever, right, and he 422 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: just thought, you know, it was nothing. I remember I 423 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: was pregnant with my daughter, my first kid, and we 424 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: had to move home for a little bit before we 425 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: join the place. I was living at my parents house 426 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: for a little bit while I was pregnant e sevent 427 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: eight months pregnant, couldn't sleep through the night, and he 428 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: comes in the room waking me up, and I'm piste off, 429 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: like okay, I can't sleep to the night and eight 430 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: it's pregnant already. And he's like, you need to come 431 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: downstairs with me, and I'm like why. He's just like, 432 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: just I need to get some water. Can you come 433 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: downstairs with me? And this is my husband is a 434 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: big man. He's a big, all thronged, you know, broad 435 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: man who doesn't look like he would need his five 436 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: for tall pregnant wife to come downstairs. Um, we go 437 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,479 Speaker 1: down the stairs, he goes you know, I'm standing there 438 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: and he's like, I'll tell you tomorrow. And then the 439 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: next day he said that as he was Um, the 440 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: reason he did was because he never leaved anything. And 441 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: then he came was coming down the stairs at like 442 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: three o'clock in the morning to get water, and we 443 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: had a mirror that was like right opposite the stairs, 444 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: and he's like he's looking, you know, as he's coming 445 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: down he's looking in the mirror, but instead he's he's 446 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: seeing a woman with long hair, and yeah, and then 447 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: he's like me out and later he's I could never happened. 448 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, but I never described what I what 449 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: the woman looked like. He described her to me, right, 450 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: because I never told him what you look like? He 451 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: described her. It was literally the same old woman that 452 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: I like, old and long hair that I I know 453 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: and like my family because I mentioned it to them, knew, 454 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: but no, and he described again. He's like a perspective. 455 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: He thought I was down. Apparently everyone thinks of an 456 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: old crazyman, right me, but he thought and then he 457 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: really think. He's like, I just left her in bed. 458 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: It can't be shy, right, And so that in that 459 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: minute where he his brain was processing, it was gone. 460 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: And that's when he came and got me. So let 461 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: me ask you. So, it sounds like a lot of 462 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: people have seen like this apparition, this woman, but other 463 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: than just kind of appearing, has she ever done anything, 464 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: spoken to anybody, moved anything, has anybody? Yeah, we had 465 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: this um prayer, just like a prayer somebody gotten us 466 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: from a Saudi or Saudi Arabia, right, that was hanging 467 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: on our It's like an engraving or something like that. 468 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: It was like an engraved piece that had a glass 469 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: on it, you know, but it was a good glass 470 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: and um, it was standing and we'd had it, you 471 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: know for years, and it was nothing. And then you know, 472 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: one day, like my brother was sleeping downstairs and the 473 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: living he was just sleeping on the couch and then 474 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: like it was this wow bang, right, this loud bang, 475 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 1: and this like this thing basically which was hanging just split, 476 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, and it's just split like in two. It 477 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: split into like the glass was completely shut. And we're 478 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: like all coybe was pressure or something, but it wasn't. 479 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: And there there was one the time I never told 480 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: anybody about what I'd seen until I was There was 481 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: this one time where I was actually because I thought 482 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: me about sleep dreaming or whatever you're in that weird place. 483 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: I was, Um, I was awake and I was talking 484 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: to my best friend on the phone, and my parents, 485 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, strict bucks and your parents were like, you know, 486 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: you have to be in bed by midnight, no talking 487 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: anybody because were talking to boys kind of a thing, right. 488 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: So I was on the phone with my best friend 489 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: at like one o'clock in the morning, and I look 490 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,959 Speaker 1: up and I'm fully awake, right, like my lights are 491 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: off and the whole all the lights and out from 492 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: the house. But I look up and um, I see 493 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: this woman in the doorway, and I think it's my 494 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: mom because my mom is also you know, short whatever, 495 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: and I'm on, like a crap, I'm telling my friend. 496 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, I'm in al right, Like, 497 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: my my mom is here in the door and she's 498 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: yelling at She's gonna yell at me. And then that's 499 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: when this thing like rushed with his mouth open scream 500 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: like I didn't hear because see it. And then my 501 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: friend was like and I'm like, oh my god. My 502 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: friend is on the phone right and she also like 503 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: on the phone and like I'm like, I and what happened? 504 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: Did your Mom's your mom throw something at you? Would happen? 505 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm going to get back to you 506 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: in a minute. And I was like, I just saw 507 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: something weird. And then I went to my mom. My 508 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: mom's knocked out. My mom and my dad like knocked 509 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: out sleeping, And that's the first time I told my 510 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: family and stuff and that's when, you know, like they 511 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: were like little things here and there. I think people 512 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: have picked up on stuff and you don't talk about 513 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: it because it's crazy and you know, and it's you know, 514 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: for me at this point, I'm like, you know, their 515 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: ghost stories and if you believe it, you believe it. 516 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: If you don't, you don't. You know. So this woman, 517 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: this woman came rushing at you with her mouth open 518 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: and then just what poof disappeared at the foot of 519 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: the bed. At the foot of the bed. Can you 520 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: describe what she looked like? Yeah, she was. She was short, right, 521 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: so probably like this short woman kind of um like 522 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: long hair, like long hair centered parted but like straggly, 523 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: like it wasn't straight. It was straight, but like you know, 524 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: like and her face. I can't remember the details of 525 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: the face other than it was very like the mouth 526 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: was just very wide and like, you know, her eyes 527 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: were kind of squinting because she was her mouth was 528 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 1: just really really open, you know. And I didn't luckily 529 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: see her again for many years until my dad was 530 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: in Bokistan when you know, he had gotten sick. He 531 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: had a heart attack in Pokistan. We had been in 532 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: Bokkistan for two weeks with him. Come back. Um, I'm 533 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: sleeping in my room. My brother is sleeping in the 534 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: other room in his room, and my parents were both 535 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: in Pokisan, and it was the first night we were back. 536 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: You know, I wake up and she was like literally 537 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: standing at the same foot at the bed, and I screamed. 538 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: And that's when my brother came running in and he's like, 539 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: what happened? As he came running in, she was She's gone. 540 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: But then he believed me because at that point he 541 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: told me that he had seen her as well. So 542 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, he pulled his mattress to the hallway and 543 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: like slept in the doorways. Oh my god. Did you 544 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: guys ever do any research about like whether there was 545 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: somebody connected to the house and the description and you're 546 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: trying to figure out who she was, what she wanted. No, 547 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, honestly, I think that what it was, because 548 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: my my mom got very upset when she found out 549 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: my brother had been doing tarot cards and and things 550 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: like that. She's like, you know, you opened doorways and portables, 551 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: and it's so weird because these are literal conversations that 552 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: we would have in our home right, like people talk 553 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: about buying cereal and my mom's telling at us about 554 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: like don't open mortals sale and you know, did you 555 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: guys do the Buiji board too? No, that is one 556 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: thing I avoided, like the plague, because I just I know, 557 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: I was like, I would never do that. That those 558 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: those things scared me. It's too much of an invitation. 559 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: That's way too much. And it was one of those 560 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: things that like even the tarot cards, like once that 561 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: stuff started, we were like, yeah, I know, my brother 562 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: put those away and like, but at that point, whatever 563 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: was happening was in the house already. We'll be right 564 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: back after the short break. So when you when you 565 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: got married, you moved out or you we went overseas. 566 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like this particular entity was kind 567 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: of it was at the house. It was connected the house. 568 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: It wasn't like some some they say, some gin will 569 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: attach to people, so wherever that person goes, they end 570 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: up just following that person. I know, somebody like that 571 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: who hasn't had that experience. Um, and so she sees 572 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: the same thing over and over, um, the same experiences 573 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: over and about where she moves and then others kind 574 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: of remain in there, but you moved overseas at some 575 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: point in your life, right as an adult or after 576 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: you had kids or I don't know when. Yeah, I 577 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: moved to Egypt um when after I had had my 578 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: second son, So when he was three months old. My 579 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: my like my kids, and I moved to each of 580 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: My husband stayed in the US for another year and 581 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: then he came with us. Yeah, and so's thirty by then. 582 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: I think, okay, And so I remember you telling me 583 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: about the experiences you had in this home over there, right, 584 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: so let's talk about that. Yeah, And just to be clear, 585 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: like honestly, you know, there's a lot of you know, discussion, 586 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: you know about things falling because you know, we've had experiences, 587 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: like all of us in different ways, you know, and 588 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: different things like moving and different things happening. You know 589 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: what people you know saying things. So I actually I 590 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: understand what your friend is talking about as well, because 591 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: these are conversations. So we've had so, yeah, that woman 592 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: stayed there. But you know, who knows, right, if people 593 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: are attached or not. When I is, we lived in Cairo, 594 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: was generally okay. In Cairo. There's a couple of times 595 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: you know, little things that happened here and there, but 596 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 1: um loge and my daughter. But then when we moved 597 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: to Dubai, that's when everything kind of like, you know, 598 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: that was the point where I'm just like, Okay, maybe 599 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: I'm not because there was still moments where I thought 600 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: I was crazy. I was just like I'm crazy, and 601 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: I'm like day dreaming or we're half asleep, or you're right, 602 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: you're tired, right, and you know, because I'm a rational 603 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: human being who well, and I'm the person that will 604 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: justify it in some rational means as much as possible. 605 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: Right before I get um, when we lived in Dubai, 606 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: we actually moved into this really beautiful villa that was 607 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: right next to a mosque. Right, I'm thinking, it's next 608 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: to a mosque. How much safer could you see? How 609 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: much spiritually safer could you be? Like it's perfect? And 610 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: then you know, um, a couple of weeks into it, 611 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, I kept my husband had to go back 612 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: to the US for something for work, so I was 613 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: just me. It was really it was like a five 614 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: bedroom house. My kids are sleeping in their room, I'm 615 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: in my room and like we're and I'm just hearing 616 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: the cabinets in the kitchen going bang bang bang really 617 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: really loud, and you know, I'm thinking, okay, and we 618 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, obviously you're in Dubai. You always have like 619 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: you have domestic help in Duvice. So I thought, okay, 620 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: it was our it was my kids nanny and she's 621 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: pissed or something and she's banging things. And I went 622 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: downstairs and all the lights are off, nobody's there, and 623 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't happening. So I'm like, okay, that's weird. You know, 624 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: I'm come back. I'm telling my husband. He said, oh, 625 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's probably how settling or something. Right, we're 626 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: sleeping and then the same thing my weeks us up, 627 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: boom boom boom. My husband's like, that's gotta be the nanny. 628 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: And I'm like, and your husband, you heard it too, 629 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: because we were broke away that at that point. And 630 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: then you know, it was just constant. Then a little 631 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 1: bit we go back to sleep. A little while later, 632 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: we're hearing footsteps going up because it was like marble 633 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 1: steps because you know, like when you want to buy 634 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: they have a lot of more ornate kind of think 635 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: these marble steps, and we're hearing like footsteps on the step, like, 636 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: and he's like's are the kids sleep walking? Because we're 637 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: thinking it's the kids, it's something, and you know, he 638 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: opens the doors. Nothing there, so we're like, all right, 639 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: this is weird. And then we go and my husband said, 640 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: you know what, just let's just put if somebody is 641 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: moving around the house, we'll put like there was this 642 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: kid's gate. There's this wooden kid's gate that we had 643 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: put it, and that was across the top of the stairs. 644 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: Because my younger son was about three, we moved there. 645 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: So we're like, you know, if he falls down the stairs, 646 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: it's marble, really hurt himself. So we had this kids 647 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: so you know, like if somebody they know, they would 648 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: bang into it because they wouldn't know that it was 649 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: up there, right, So we had it and you know, 650 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: a couple of nights nothing. A couple of nights later, 651 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: we're going hearing the banging downstairs. So we wakes both 652 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: of us up. You know, my husband grabs a bat, right, 653 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: he's like waiting now or he's got a bat. And 654 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: at that point and we were sitting up in bed 655 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: and we can hear it clearly footsteps going up the thing. 656 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: The footsteps are coming up the stairway towards your room. 657 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: Where's our room? The stairs go and then there's like 658 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: a landing and then right and directly in front was 659 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: my bedroom, and then the bedroom to the left was 660 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: my kid's bedroom, and then we had a guest bedroom 661 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: in office to the rights. It was a big house, right, 662 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: so we're like kind of a dead center. So it's 663 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: coming up the thing, and you know, I, I'm scared. 664 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: So we had like actually that night closed the door 665 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: because I was getting a little creep out. I thinking 666 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: maybe the somebody probably around the house. You know, there 667 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: were a lot of robberies in du buying that area. 668 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: So that's my husband at the bat. The doors closed 669 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: and the kids doors closed, our doors closed, and then 670 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: we hear the footstep. My husband's got the bat now 671 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: he's like piste off. He's ready to do whatever, right, 672 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: and then we hear the thing slide the gate, the gates. 673 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: We hear it. My husband jumps up and he opens 674 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: the door and there's no there's nobody there there and 675 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: like the gate is open. The gate was open and 676 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: we had closed it. So that was like the beginning, 677 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: and then it just accelerated after that, like I was, 678 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, downstairs, my husband and I were watching Game 679 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: of Thrones downstairs. The kids are in like in bed, 680 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, sleeping, and they had a bunk bed in 681 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: their room, and all of a sudden, my daughter starts 682 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: screaming bloody murder. So I remember jumping out of the couch, 683 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: like running up the stairs. My husband's following me, right, 684 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: And she had she would sleep on the top bunk 685 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: and we had when those kids tents that went over 686 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: the top bunk, you know, they have kids tents. So 687 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: she used to like sleeping in his kid's tent. And 688 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: she's screw dreaming inside this tent, right, And I run upstairs. 689 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: I opened the tent and she is just pale and screaming, 690 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: and I'm like, what's wrong? And she's like, you know, 691 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: I woke up and I I saw this you know, 692 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: shadow like outside of my tent, and I thought it 693 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: was you, right, And she opened the tent and she's like, mom, 694 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: it was not you, right, And then she's like and 695 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: then it disappeared, and that's when she started screaming. And 696 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: she was six or seven, right, and she saw did 697 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: she see a person? She described what she said she 698 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: saw a woman, and she said, like she saw the 699 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: wind shadow, and then when she opened the thing, she 700 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: saw like a woman for like a fraction of a 701 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: second and then she disappeared. But she's like I clearly, 702 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: She's like, I thought it was you, right, And I 703 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,239 Speaker 1: was sitting up and I opened it. I just keep 704 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: getting chills. I just keep getting chills up and down 705 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: my body. Gary. It was really sCOD because it was 706 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: one of those things that I'm just like, this is crazy, 707 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: and I'm just a really respected journalist covering the Middle 708 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: Eastern and I'm going and I'm tired, Like I'm going 709 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: into work and I'm tired. And then it was funny. 710 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: I told my boss, who was um a small and 711 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: she's one of my best friend. She's a smaller Canadian woman, 712 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: so she's Muslim too, and I told her about this 713 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: stuff and she was like, Okay, that's really weird and scary. 714 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: So she's like, you know, read like something from the Koran, 715 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: and you know, this is the conversation having with my 716 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: boss in the newsroom about and so it's just sort 717 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: of crazy. And then we're just doing it. And then 718 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: it just started accelerating, accelerating with the banging and this, 719 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: and then then our housemaid or nanny told us the 720 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: same thing. She would she would do it too. So 721 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: she actually one day I come home and she was 722 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: she was Christian, and she apparently while we were awakey 723 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: at work, she went to the church and she got 724 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: all this holy water, so all over our house. But 725 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: these crosses, holy oil. Whatever works, man, whatever works. And 726 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: he's like, are you mad, And I'm like, nope, I'm good. 727 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: Something's gonna work. It's good. I'm sitting here playing like Karan, 728 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: you can have lumpthing's gonna work right right, And yeah, 729 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: I mean then it was just started accelerating more and more, 730 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: and then it came really really common, to the point 731 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: like we lived there. Maybe I had to be terrifying 732 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: for the kids to write, well, that's the thing. Eventually 733 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: we all wounded up sleeping in the same room. We 734 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: had a five rough house and the kids in their room, 735 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: and so we had a king size bed. My husband's like, 736 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: this stinks. I'm gonna go sleep in the guest room. 737 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: Why so me and my two kids are sleeping in 738 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: the room. He's sleeping in the guest room. Does it 739 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: a week and then comes back and he said nope, 740 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: pulls a mattress out and starts sleeping on the floor 741 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: in this room. And I'm like, what, what's wrong with you? 742 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: Wanted to sleep in the guest room And he's like, okay, 743 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: so I was sleeping right, and he's sitting when he's sleeping, 744 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: and clearly he's like somebody pulled his foot. He's like 745 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: he pulled his foot and filted him awake. He thought 746 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: it was me, And he's like what and he looks 747 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: and he's like, no, nobody there, and he he was 748 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: just so he's like, maybe it's a good gin because 749 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: it was like fund your time, and I was sleeping 750 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,719 Speaker 1: through it, so maybe it was just waking me up 751 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: for prayers or something. Right, get up, get up and pray. 752 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: But he was just like, nope, I'm not going back 753 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: in there. So by the end, because it was happening 754 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: so much, we would all sleep in one room. And 755 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: I'll sell you the reason I forgot why. The reason 756 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: we started doing that was because my daughter was having 757 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: tough time sleeping in her She kept getting up the 758 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: middle of the night and coming to my room. And 759 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: you know, my son with something, he was pretty sleeper, 760 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: but you know she would always come down. And one 761 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: night by you know, I wake up and I looked 762 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: at the door and I see my daughter, you know, 763 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: I see him, like I see the same size my daughter, 764 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: short short South Asian short hair, right she's standing there, 765 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, you know, baby, you can come in, 766 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: come in the bed, go ahead, and you know, and 767 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: then I like move move to make room for her 768 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,959 Speaker 1: in the bed, and she's already lying there. So I look, Mike, 769 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: shack and stop it, you keep give me. I'm so 770 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: freaking out. It was really scary, and I'm she's already 771 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: lying there in between my husband and myself. And then 772 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm looking and I look back and then 773 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: not only at this point, I'm awake, now come sitting 774 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: up right, and I'm looking and I look back and think, 775 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: and I still see this little shadow of like this 776 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: little kid, but now I see a woman right behind 777 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,919 Speaker 1: the kid, right like, and it looked like a woman 778 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: like niob like I look like a woman in a 779 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: work like right behind and that's where I'm like banging 780 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: on my husband's arm and I'm like waking him up. 781 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: And so I grabbed my son and I was like no, 782 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna let to sleepy himself in his room, right, So, 783 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: like all of us started sleeping in one room that's 784 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: where my as we went to the other room asleep 785 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: and then came back. So it was like three of 786 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: us in the king's size bed and my husband on 787 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: a mattress on the floor. So at some point when 788 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: I mean, because I feel like, how can you even rest? 789 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: How can you emotionally and physically rest in a house 790 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: where you feel like you're certainly not alone, Like there's 791 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: something that like the psychic toll has to take over time, 792 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: it's gonna be really difficult. So what are you thinking, like, Okay, 793 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: we just have to get out of here, or we 794 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: have to find a fix, or what is the long 795 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: term plan? In response to this? Are you just in 796 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: their space and they want you out? What if you 797 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: think was happening? Well that I didn't know what was happening. 798 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: It was really scary. But the problem is when you 799 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: moved overseas, especially if you live in du Buy, you 800 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: have to pay rent for a year and that rent 801 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: gets taken out of your salary. So I could not 802 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,479 Speaker 1: cut the lease for any reason. You know, it would 803 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: have been literally all everyone has still been taken out 804 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: of my salary and I wouldn't been able to afford 805 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: another place because you have to pay for the entire year, 806 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: and like it's not cheap the buy, it's very very 807 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: over priced. Right. So it was one of those things 808 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: that I was like, Okay, we're here, We're stuck here, right, 809 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: And um, was it an old home or what was 810 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: it was newly built? And this is the thing, right, 811 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: So it was it was a newly built home that 812 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: was next to it wasn't like maybe a couple of 813 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: years or something. Oh no, it was actually newly built. 814 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: There was another home that was like maybe a few 815 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: months early. So they had been building this development of 816 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: these really beautiful villas in that area. And I come 817 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: into work one day and there's this newspaper called There 818 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: was this newspaper called Emirates twenty seven in Dubai and 819 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: I come into work and there's a newspaper on my thing, 820 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: and my boss walks up to me. She's like, turn 821 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: to page whatever seven, right, And apparently somebody in Emirate 822 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: wrote an article about how the entire area of Jamara 823 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: three where we lived, was plaguing the British expats, because 824 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: British expats kept moving out because they kept saying it 825 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: was haunted flying it wasn't a freaking newspaper. And like 826 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: then my friend, my boss is like, isn't that your 827 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: neighborhood And I'm like, yes, that's my name. And it's 828 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: all these like people from like all over England and 829 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,439 Speaker 1: Australia are being quoted and they're going, I'm sitting there 830 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: and like glasses are flying off and I see these 831 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: people and all the bang the bangings too much and 832 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: like the rattling in the bank. It was really crazy. 833 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: And then at the very bottom, because apparently they didn't 834 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: know how to write a story, so they put this 835 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: at the very bottom of the buried it was that 836 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: that Terentire neighborhood was built over a graveyard. The whole 837 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: neighborhood had been built over a graveyard. With the Dubai sprawl, 838 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: they just there's not enough space there. Yeah, so they 839 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: had to oh, my god, that built over a graveyard. Yeah, 840 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: that can really hurt property values right there, this is 841 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 1: the buy Okay, that's true. And we stayed there for 842 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: a while. I mean there was one point where I 843 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: remember um sitting up. My husband was like on the mattress, 844 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: and we started, you know, locking our door. At that point, 845 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: we closed our door and we were locking our door, 846 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: and you know, all five, all four of us are 847 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,879 Speaker 1: in the bedroom. We're all sleeping, same banging bang banging 848 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: footsteps with steps. I wake up, you know, my husband 849 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: wakes up. We're like basically sitting there looking at each other, 850 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: and then the footsteps come up and then you stop 851 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: right outside of our door, and my husband was like, 852 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: are you sure maybe there's somebody in the house. Right. 853 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: He's like, because that's really that's right outside there. He 854 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: would whispering to each other and I was like, and 855 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: it just sounds too real. It sounds So he's like, 856 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: I think there's somebody in the house. He's like, I 857 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: think somebody because you know the robberies here. So he 858 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: goes to get the bat and then the door starts 859 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: like the door knobs are shaking, and he's like, holy crap. 860 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: He's like, there's somebody at the door. So he gets 861 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: the bat and he gets opens door over there. Wow. 862 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: And so at what point did your husband go from 863 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: I don't really believe in this stuff too. Oh, this 864 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: is definitely real. I think since he married me married me, 865 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: I think he kind of was just like you hear 866 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: things and then he was like, Okay, now I'm experiencing 867 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: them with you. And I think Dubai really clenched it 868 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: for him. I think that was he was just like, 869 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: all right, you know, these things happened. And we actually 870 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: went to the you know, the mom at the mosque 871 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: connect door um and then apparently everybody, all the Muslims 872 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: in the neighbor that were at the moscow, Oh yeah, 873 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: that happens in this house, and that happens. It's the 874 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: entire neighborhood in the neighborhood, very common. So the mom 875 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: started talents and you have to do like Suita Bucca 876 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 1: and you have to have it on play all night. 877 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: And you know, it was one of things that I 878 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: didn't want to tell my mom because I don't want 879 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: people do not come visit right because don't tell them 880 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: about the gin. Come, the beach is lovely, the what 881 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: is great, the shopping is good. Anything, And like my 882 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: sister came and she she actually lived with us when 883 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: she was waiting for her house to be ready. She 884 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: was living to buy. Then she came and lived with 885 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: us like two three months, and then later on she's like, yeah, 886 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 1: your house. Your sister experienced something too, so when you 887 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: came back to the United States. So how long ago 888 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: was that? That was? Um? We left that house two 889 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: thousand twelve Christmas? H did you um sense? Like I'm 890 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: just wondering, like, because you know, people have a sense, uh, 891 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: people have these experiences when sometimes got a sense of 892 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: some kind of overwriting feeling like some people will describe 893 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: like they're being an incredible kind of sadness around this 894 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: entity or or if they feel they can sense like 895 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: malevolence or or anger or something. Did you get any 896 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: get a sense from these apps? From these whatever this 897 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,320 Speaker 1: entity was in the house? I think I think it 898 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: was just it was more like we were in their space, 899 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: in their space, the kid was playful, you know, and 900 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: the kid was playful and wanted somebody was what just 901 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: saying I think the mom I'm I'm projecting here, whoever 902 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: the longer woman was right. I think that she was 903 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: just kind of why why are you in the house 904 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: sort of. I don't think there was anything like malevolent, 905 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: but I just think it was it was scary because 906 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: I like to be in this reality, and I like 907 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: that reality to stay far away from me, you know, yeah, 908 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: which which takes me to another question. I mean, so 909 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 1: you've been told that you have a lineage of of 910 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: of having these abilities, right like, which means if you 911 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: wanted to, you could really cultivate them. Have you thought 912 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: about them? Sometimes? I'm thinking I should, But it's part 913 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: of my family, so I just kind of you know, 914 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, it is what it is. But you know, 915 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: it's also something that like I don't talk about and 916 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: if you were not my friend, I would not be 917 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: talking about it on a podcast. I do appreciate it because, look, 918 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: I know you're putting yourself. I've asked other friends too, 919 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: They're like, do you understand I have a professional reputation 920 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: to protect? That's what my partner doing this, She's like, really, like, 921 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: you know, my work stands for itself. It does, it does, 922 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: it does, And like I said, like, we have a 923 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: whole spectrum of really like people from all kinds of 924 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: different background just not just professional backgrounds, but like religious 925 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: and cultural backgrounds who also are going to be having 926 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: conversations with me around this. So it's been great, Well, 927 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 1: when can I ask you this? Then? Just as a 928 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,399 Speaker 1: kind of a closing question, when is the last time 929 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: you had an experience that you feel like was the 930 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: supernatural experience? Um, you know, honestly, it was probably like 931 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 1: a couple a few months ago, so you know what 932 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: I mean, Like this is like stuff that you know, 933 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: my husband basically like he he told me that I'm 934 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: married into a very annoying family. Right. It's just like 935 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:51,720 Speaker 1: I don't know what to say to you guys, because 936 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: that's why I'm saying. He's like, you know, obviously there's 937 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: something attached to your family or you draw it or whatever, right, 938 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: but like, um yeah, it was was like kids voices, 939 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: like kid's voices. And I didn't say anything to anybody 940 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: about in your house in my end, like this this 941 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: house that we were renting and not this one with 942 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: the one before that, and like I never said anything 943 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: to anybody. And then um my son, he's like I mentioned, 944 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, I thought I heard kids playing downstairs 945 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: in the basement, right, And I was like, okay, it's okay, right, 946 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: Well look because I don't because he gets scared, I 947 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: wasn't gonna say anything to him. And then you know, 948 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: I was sleeping one night and then when I actually 949 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: wasn't sleeping, I was supposed to be sleeping, and then 950 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: my husband was snoring. So I left the room and 951 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 1: I went to my my daughter's room and I was 952 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: just like trying to settle down in my daughter's room 953 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,359 Speaker 1: with her, and then I just heard a music box, 954 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: like really loudly, and we don't have music box, so, 955 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 1: oh my god, a really loud music box. And you know, 956 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: I got up and I walked to the different rooms 957 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: to try to find it, and I couldn't find it. 958 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: And then I went downstairs to the basement, you know, 959 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: the next day, putting like something away the laundry, and 960 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: then I was like, you know what, there's a kid's 961 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: section in the basement, you know, and it and then 962 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: there was a music box in there. Wow. I have 963 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,280 Speaker 1: a feeling. You have so many, so many, so many stories, 964 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: but it sounds like you have kind of resigned yourself 965 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: to living with these experiences and none of them have 966 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: really felt threatening necessarily, but it's just like they're letting 967 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, we're here. We're just here. It's culture, you know, 968 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: I think it's culture and its religion, and you know, 969 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: there's people are going to say, oh, you know, wow, 970 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: you're crazy or while you know there's this and that's fine. 971 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: That's what faith is, right. I mean, the people say 972 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: the same thing for believing in God. And if you believe, 973 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: they think you're crazy. And you know some people do, yeah, 974 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: some people do, and some people tell you. I mean, 975 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 1: I figure there are plenty of people who are like 976 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: agnostic or have you know, don't no really have a 977 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 1: faith tradition, but they might still believe in like something 978 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: a little that they can't explain UFOs or ferries or whatever. 979 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,720 Speaker 1: Maybe something you never know, uh you know, Santa Claus, 980 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: I mean the inexplicable. But anyhow, thank you so much. 981 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: I mean, this has been a really it's been a 982 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 1: fun conversation, even though I've had lots of chills and 983 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: a little bit of a little bit of some scarce too, 984 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: But I really appreciate it, and I I would love 985 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: to continue to talk to you like as you have experience. 986 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if you've ever thought about 987 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: like documenting this stuff or like doing your journalists you 988 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: could do a whole like project around it. I could, 989 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: and then I would like to maintain somewhat of my credibility. 990 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: Can you. Please put our listeners how they can find 991 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: your work, especially the Prison Journals and Project UM and 992 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: find you online and follow you. Okay, well, um, you 993 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: can look us up at Prison Journalism Project dot org. 994 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: That is our publication. We're super excited about it and 995 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: you know we're we focus on incarcerated men and women 996 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: formerly incarcerated and incarceration impacted because we understand that the 997 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: impact of people inside is so much wider and that 998 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: net is so huge that we want to hear the 999 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: stories of everyone that's been you know, involved in any way, 1000 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: shape or form, whether it's a family member, loved one, friend, 1001 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: or even if they worked with people and it's it's 1002 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 1: touched them. So we're always looking for those stories. You 1003 00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,280 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at profit Pasha prof Psha 1004 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: p R O F p A s h A awesome, 1005 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed that conversation 1006 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: as much as I did. Now there are as many 1007 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: people in the world with JIN stories as there are GIN, 1008 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: so if you have one you'd like to share, make 1009 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin 1010 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H 1011 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: E H I D D E N d j I 1012 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: n N at gmail dot com and until next time, 1013 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a 1014 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from 1015 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah 1016 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with 1017 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,320 Speaker 1: executive producer Who's Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. 1018 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more 1019 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,320 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 1020 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. M