WEBVTT - Anita Hill on Fighting Sexual Harassment 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.520 In the early nineties, there weren't Twitter hashtags, so there 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.240 was no hashtag me to campaign, but there was a 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.799 flood of pink buttons on women's lapels that read I 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:14.720 believe Anita Hill. This isn't the first time sexual harassment 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.560 has been at the center of public conversation. This week 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:32.839 we hear from Anita Hill, this is game Plan. Hi. 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.520 I'm Francesca Levi and I'm Rebecca Greenfield. Since our episode 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.960 a few weeks ago about workplace sexual harassment, even more 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.840 stories have continued to come out. More people are making 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:47.080 accusations against powerful men in all kinds of industries, and 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.640 it really seems like women and men are gaining the 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.600 courage to speak up about this. Just from the sheer 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.560 number of people who have come out and kind of 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.520 called out this behavior as wrong and inappropriate and illegal. 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.600 It really does feel like a moment, and it's not 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.920 just the amount of people coming forward, but stuff is 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.920 actually happening, and that that seems new to me, that 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.600 you can speak up and someone will actually get fired 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.839 a powerful person for their behavior. It is a moment 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.080 where something feels really different. But this isn't the first 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:22.240 time in history that something has felt really different about 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.839 the way we treat sexual harassment. Of course, the entire 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:31.400 Anita Hill episode in the early nineties showed us that 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.560 sexual harassment was not only something that women had to 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:40.479 suffer in silence, but a real actionable offense, and it 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:42.480 was on the lips of many people for the first time. 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.080 And Anita Hill is somebody who I think is uniquely 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.400 positioned to show us how far we still have to go, 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.840 because she's seen how far we've come from the way 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.200 that we once talked about sexual harassment to now. Yeah, 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:57.120 of course I know about Anita Hill. She comes up 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.520 a lot am I reporting, And I know the basic 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.480 story that she had worked for Clarence Thomas Um when 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.240 she was at the e O C. And she testified 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.280 in front of this and a judiciary committee that he 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:12.600 had sexually harassed her when he was being confirmed for 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.240 Supreme Court Justice. We know he got confirmed, and I 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.520 know it was a big deal, But I was a 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.840 baby when this happened, so I don't I didn't actually 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:22.920 know how big of a deal in a movement that 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.320 it was. Yeah, I was also a child when this happened, 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:28.400 although I do have a memory of it because it 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.440 was such a big deal, and it was on the 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.840 news all the time, and I think that there's a 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.239 huge swath of the working world that this isn't in 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.160 living memory for them. Um. But from what I vaguely 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:45.000 remember and also what I've read, I know that sexual 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:48.679 harassment wasn't even a term people really used in any 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.520 kind of regular way, and there was a big debate 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.040 over whether or not Anita Hill was telling the truth. 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.600 Her credibility was smeared. People had all kinds of reasons 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:00.680 for saying that she wasn't telling the truth. And then 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.400 of course there were those women and men wearing the 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.320 I believe we need to help pins who who were 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.919 coming out on the record to say they did believe her. 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.120 But that was the central question, was whether or not 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.480 she was telling the truth. And it was really the 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:18.760 first time that even companies started developing policies around sexual harassment. 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.280 We knew this kind of thing happened, but there wasn't 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.639 a word for it, and there wasn't really a way 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.280 to talk about it that everybody kind of agreed on. 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.280 It's interesting to see the different memes that have come out, 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:33.880 Like back in the nine Views, it was I believe 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.880 her and now it's me too, which I know now 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.120 a lot of women don't get believed still, but it 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.360 does seem like a shift in the way we're talking 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:47.840 about the victims of harassment. Instead of people saying we 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.200 need to believe these people enough people feel empowered to 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:52.760 talk about it. They don't think they're not going to 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:57.240 be believed. Everyone's posting me too, and people are believing them. 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.400 Of course, the fact that there are this many handles 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.320 and there are still this many stories shows that not 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.040 enough has changed since the time of Anita Hill. Our 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.000 editor in chief John michaels Waite interviewed Anita Hill as 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.800 part of Bloomberg's Year Ahead Summit, and we think that 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:18.480 interview is really informative as to what actually has changed 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.280 in the law and in culture and what still hasn't changed. 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:31.680 So we're going to hear that interview now, press a. Hill, 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.720 thank you very much for for coming coming to the 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.039 Year Ahead. Um, I'm going to cut straight to the 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:42.120 chase rather quickly. Despite your impressive record at brandeis. We're 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.599 going to talk quite a lot about sexual harassment. And 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:49.400 my starting question is I was actually in Los Angeles 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.520 living on the outskirts of Hollywood that we have the 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.120 Senate Judiciary hearings. I remember a lot of people walking 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:04.240 around with badges. I believe, believing in you. And back then, 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.799 a lot of people thought the whole debate about harassment 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.159 would change and that we wouldn't be living through what 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.719 we are now. Looking at what's happened with Harvey Weinstein 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.800 and this new storm about this subject, do you think 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.719 this time it will change in a different way. It's 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.839 like any movement, like any energy, it develops and then 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.760 you move forward and then there's a plateau. And I 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.159 think that's what happened. But I don't think we should 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:40.600 underestimate what happened either, because there was significant change. There 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.000 were a new civil rights law that had had been 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:49.000 doomed UM that was passed almost within weeks of the hearing. 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:55.240 The number of complaints to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 0:05:55.640 --> 0:06:01.440 sexual harassment complaints double within two years of the hearing. UM. Actually, 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:06.039 businesses started to put into place policies and procedures UM, 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:11.240 and before the hearings maybe there would have been I 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:16.200 think around ten of companies might have put policies in 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:23.960 place to investigate sexual harassment UM. Afterwards of business instant 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:29.440 and at this point now it's steadily increasing because of 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.120 the case law, and we're now up to around ninety 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:37.480 percent of companies, maybe even over ninety percent of companies 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.960 have some kind of policy in place. So there has 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.679 been progress, it has plateaued, and clearly if you read 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.000 anything in the papers in the past few weeks, you 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.080 know that there has not been enough progress. So the 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.160 question is where do we go from here? What? What? 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.200 What makes the difference? Now? Do you think the business 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.440 now sees this as a serious threat to the bottom line? 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:00.760 Is that? Is that really the bit which makes the 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.960 difference is where business thinks of this as something that 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.719 you could really have an impact on profits. It is 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.760 costly sexual harassment complaints that if you prevail, if you 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.840 look at the season numbers, uh, they cost millions of 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:21.000 dollars to companies every year. UM. But I do think 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.080 that part of the motivation comes from the case law. 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.040 There's been a development of case law, maybe ten to 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:32.000 fifteen cases decided by the Supreme Court UM. And I 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.480 think there is uh, there's a movement inside companies. Some 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.280 companies really do want to do the right things. Sometimes 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.840 it's because people have complained and they want to force 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.640 companies to do the right thing by their employees. They 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.960 see that, you know, there's employees are suffering that there 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.320 is not only lost and revenue, but lost in talent 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.160 that can occur because of sexual harassment. Can we appze 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.239 you a bision to structure? I mean I structural changes 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:03.920 things we might need to do with the law to 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.560 pushes ahead, and then cultural change, which it's harder, but 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.400 often culture tends to follow structure. Do you do you 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.240 think there are changes in the law that still need 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.880 to be made that would make a difference in this field. Oh? Absolutely, 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.960 you're you're right. I can talk all day about policies 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:25.120 and procedures, but I have colleagues who study what is 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.320 actually going on on the ground, and they tell me 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.000 that most many of the policies that are in place 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:36.000 really don't eliminate the problem out. And that is in 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.640 part where culture comes in. Because you can have all 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.960 the policies that you want, and they can even be 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.040 good policies, if the culture doesn't support them, no one 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.800 takes the policy seriously. They don't have to, and so 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.320 there is sort of it's hard to separate culture from policy. 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:58.880 It's almost impossible. Culture drives policy sometimes and then sometimes 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.920 policy draw lives the implementation and the enforcement or excuse me, 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:07.880 culture will drive the things on the law we could 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.400 do that would make a difference in terms of changing 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:15.160 the law. Well, the laws as another external structure. And 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:19.160 I was secondly about internal structures and culture. Uh, there 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.080 is the external culture and structures. I think that I 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.400 can push us forward too. I do believe that many 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.520 of the policies that have been put in place came 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.440 about because of those legal decisions that I talked about. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.319 But there are some limits in very recently in advanced 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.440 case and I believe it's in two thousand thirteen decision 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:43.480 where the court UH gave a very limited definition of 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.360 what is a supervisor in terms of employee or liability. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.760 And so the court decided that a supervisor, if a 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:57.240 supervisor harasses, then their strict liability on the part of 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:01.160 the corporation. But then and define what is the supervisor. 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.959 What the court said was it had the supervisor had 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:09.400 to be someone who had complete control over the employee. UH. 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.359 The supervisor had to have the ability to hire, fire, demote, 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:19.719 punish all and and even relocate the employee. And as 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.920 we know in most operations, especially when you get down 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:29.480 to lower level employment areas, supervisors may give work assignments, 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.080 which in essence is a control over the employee, but 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.360 they may not have the power to hire and fire 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.760 That may be may come up at a higher level. 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:42.360 And so that very limited definition of what is the 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:47.800 supervisor not only doesn't match many work situations. In addition, 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:55.640 it doesn't help many employees whose quote unquote supervisor or 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.079 day to day manager is giving them a hard time. 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.599 They may be harassed seeing them directlyly, they may be 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:06.200 allowing other employees to harass. But what the court said 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.520 advance was that unless you can hire and fire, you 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:14.440 are not the company is not liable for your behavior. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.640 And is that something Congress could change or is it 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.120 something you have to do state by state. It's something 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.160 that Congress can change. But I think one of the 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.400 things that I'd like to get people to think about 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.440 is that what the law is to me is a floor. 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:35.200 It's not a ceiling. You a corporation could say, for 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:40.720 our purposes, supervisor is anyone who has control over the 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:46.760 daily employment of an individual, at least for purposes of 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:51.559 harassment and other kinds of workplace violations that they see 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.120 or are part of. And so I think we you know, 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.640 the law can push us in the right direction. And 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.760 I think the law in this case is wrong and 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.360 we should be taking a different direction. But I would 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.480 like to think if a company is absolutely certain that 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:13.040 women and girls and and all employees have a right 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.600 to work in a place free of harassment, then they're 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.680 going to be looking beyond the strict contours of the 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.959 law to make up rules and regulations that best fit 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.920 the values and the needs of a company. Now do 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.680 you think that will require a new kind of imaginative 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.719 way of thinking. I suppose we're now moving into the 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.440 kind of cultural field away from the law. But talking 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.080 earlier technology, are the things that we can do using 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:42.120 that that companies could now use to to see or 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.600 to measure I suppose that the harassment. I think there 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.319 are all kinds of ways. I will say, though, we 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.520 were talking about external factors, and one of the things 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.120 that has happened over the past few years, and I 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.160 think people have if you've been reading the papers, then 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.840 you might have taken note out since and and even 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.600 in the years after. So one of the first questions 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.400 that I was always asked, whether it's by media or 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:13.080 people on the street, or why don't women complain? And 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.280 I think we have moved beyond that in this latest 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.600 round of stories, and we're looking at what is the 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:26.240 behavior and how are our systems and structures and are enablers? Uh? 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:32.199 And individuals and who keep it occurring or support it 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.640 knowingly or unknowingly. How are all of these things keeping 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.280 this behavior going? Uh? And so I think we have 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:45.160 moved to a different conversation and I would hope that 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:50.280 that is what drives the inquiry now as opposed to 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.920 you know, we have to start with something before we 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.000 develop the tactics. We have to figure out what our 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.319 motivation is. And the motivation you think should be very 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.040 clearly is not just to follow the law, but to 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.240 get much broader than that and set up a culture 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.160 where people immediately I don't do this to be where 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.440 there was even the slightest hint of it, it is 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.880 it is dealt with. And I think that the setting 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.920 of the culture has always been difficult because I think 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:24.000 most places are risk averse and they are assuming that 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.000 maybe if if we don't look into these you know, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.080 sort of look underneath the rugs and inside the desk stowers. 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.840 This won't won't happen in our company. But if you 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.320 look at the number of women who have participated in 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.080 the me too hashtag and just people who have spoken out, 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.239 we know that this continues to be a serious problem. 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:46.920 And it seems to me that it's just a matter 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:51.400 of time before something happens in just about any company 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.760 if you haven't examined. So I think the motivation now 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.640 is strong to be proactive because you can get media 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.960 attention that will not be good not only for your business, 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.960 but also for businesses reputation if the light it shines on. 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.000 If you look at Uber, if you look at Fox News, 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.360 if you look at Google. Even at this point, all 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.760 of these companies are now being scrutinized because of stories 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.880 that have come out. And so I think we are 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.920 at a point now where it is in everyone's interest 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.080 to try to be proactive, and we need to look 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:32.320 at some kind of traditional approaches to being proactive, and 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:38.920 one is look at your companies, make assessments. Um It's 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.480 it seems to me that people say, well, oh, we 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.680 haven't ever had a sexual harassment complaint, Does that in 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:48.080 fact mean that there is no sexual harassment in your company, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:54.560 I would I would be very skeptical of reaching that conclusion. Um, 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.840 so do something you need to cool in outsiders to 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.080 come and do those things. I think at some point 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.800 you you should. And I think one of the things 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:08.000 that triggers the need for outside investigation is, in fact, 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:12.359 if you hear of people who are very high profile, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:16.560 high performers, very instrumental either in the founding of a 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:21.119 company like Harving Lines, or very instrumental in the revenues 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.720 of a company, that you should in fact bring in 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:29.080 outside people to to make an assessment. In that way, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:34.880 the investigations have integrity. You can you because you have 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:39.640 a truly independent outside investigation. But you know, we should 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.800 be using the same kind of technology that you used 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:47.160 to improve your businesses in other ways, should be engaged 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:53.080 in um and improving the workplace, in the workplace culture 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:56.840 for everyone. Why do you think the boundary lies between 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.280 this desire to to pre pre to prevent on the 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.400 one side, and then the other thing, that sort of 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.320 right to privacy that that line Hobby Weinstein seems to 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:11.160 move that line a little bit the cost of privacy 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.800 maybe or do you how do you feel about that well, 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.080 And I think that's where the assessment has to be, 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:25.440 at least initially aimed at the culture, because when the privacy, privacy, privacy, 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:33.000 Now I'm saying privacy, the privacy problemish, it's just like that, Um, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:38.960 the privacy problem really occurs when you're looking in investigating individuals, 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.480 and but when you're investigating the entire company, what is 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.879 the climate life? What is the culture like for people? 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.280 Do our women have you serve as your employees? Are 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.280 they saying harassment is a problem here, even though they're 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.000 not filing complaints, and that that would but that would 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.199 surely to justify the or to to work in the 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.280 system you're describing, you would go to an outside firm 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:06.919 and say, will you survey all our women employees? Right? 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.439 And the surveys they have to be have to be 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:13.120 prior anonymous. Yeah, they have to be anonymous. But at 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.240 the same time, what they might yield is that there 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:21.000 are culprits. I think though, once you start investigating a culture, 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.400 you might find that there are a certain individuals who 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:29.760 are offenders or maybe repeat offenders, and then you have 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.760 to decide what you're going to do about it. In 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.440 terms of the outside climate. You you, we talked about, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.000 you mentioned the media, you, we talked about the pressure 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.320 of the law. I mean, one great obvious difference now 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.399 compared with what that is. We now have Donald Trump 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:48.560 as president. To what extent does he make it harder 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.920 to deal with the issue of sexual arrestment. I assume 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.879 that people vote for Donald Trump for a number of reasons. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:01.800 But what I also assume is that we all have 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.080 an opportunity now to look at his language and to 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.679 analyze his language in a reason fashion. And what is 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.159 deeply troubling about his language was not only the normalizing 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.320 of this predatory behavior, but was the sense of his 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:23.440 entitlement to behave in a certain way. And I think 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.280 that's one of the real flags that if you have 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.960 an individual who feels, whether it's the President of the 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.400 United States or somebody in your organization, who feels entitled 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.840 to do whatever they want to whoever they want because 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.600 they're in that position of power, then that is your 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:46.000 red flag and something that you should all be pushing 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.639 back against because it won't just begin and in with 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.960 sexual harassment. It will be all kinds of behavior that 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.160 can be bullying, that can be other forms of discrimination, 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:01.399 racial discrimination, homophobia in the wordplay, and that's something that 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.200 you want to You won't find a question what would 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.520 be this is about the year ahead two thousand and eighteen. 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.760 What would be a reasonable kind of metric to measure 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.439 us measure things by which you could say, look, it 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.720 has got better because of X. What? What is what 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:21.040 is the sign that you would like to see that 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.399 would mean that something really has changed? Well, first of all, 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.119 if you're doing the surveys, are two things that can happen. 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.600 You can take the survey now and then taken months later. 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.159 Are you feeling safe? Do you feel that this is 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.720 harassment free? That you feel that you're moving forward not harassment? 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.520 I think the other metric, and this is one that 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.600 I talked about, is a change in leadership. Have you 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.840 really examined the kinds of culture that you want and 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.399 realize that in order to get that culture, you need 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:56.760 to diversify your leadership, in your management, in your company. 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:02.680 And I really believe that, um, yeah, and in companies 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.040 that have actually address this problem. Uh, there's some research 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:11.160 that chose that over a year or two leadership changes 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.199 that you get more diversity and leadership more diversity in 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.760 terms of women moving into leadership roles, more adversity in 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.160 terms of people of color. Once you make a commitment 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:28.120 to making sure that people are treated equally and fairly 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:32.560 and in your workplaces, that's the Hill thank you very much. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:43.760 Basically to other thank yeah. I think it's really useful 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.600 to hear from someone like Anita Hill because she has 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:50.680 this long view that can make you see how these 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.359 moments can affect change. Even though she did say that 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:58.679 it will plateau. But even hearing that before her testimony, 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:03.440 nobody had sexual arrest policies and now companies do. It's 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.440 things like that that make the moment right now feel 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:09.199 a lot less defeatist, like, yeah, we're outing sexual harassers, 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.720 but how can we really make the workplace better? And 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:16.440 she gave some actual solutions for that. She did keep 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:21.000 hitting on that theme of external versus internally imposed changes, 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.760 or kind of structural versus cultural, and the structural stuff is, 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.440 you know, those policies and the laws, and she talked 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.440 about how all that has changed, but she also kind 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.760 of made it sound like she is seeing something of 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.439 a cultural shift too. I liked that she mentioned, you know, 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.600 we're not necessarily having the conversation about why don't morrow 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.400 women speak up? Because so many women are speaking up now. 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.040 Now we're having this conversation about why is this behavior 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:50.439 happening and and what structures are enabling it? And I 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.240 agree with you there is a defeatism and a sort 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.399 of sadness, and hearing all this stuff, it feels very repetitive. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.720 But I'm encouraged by how different things actually are now 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:06.480 than they were in a way I didn't even really 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:10.600 fully grasp until I listened to this interview. And on 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:16.760 a lighter note, let's do some half big takes, happy 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.359 fake takes. If you have a half big take, you 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.040 can call our voicemail. It's two on two six one 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:26.680 zero one Becca. What's your half big take this week? 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:33.280 My half big take is winter Fridays. Okay, I know 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:34.800 we have a half big take for every day of 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.320 the week, so here we go. Um. I just think 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.680 that it's way better to get out of work early 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:45.760 on those dark winter Fridays, or it's just as good 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:48.720 as a summer Friday. We need it. It's so dark, 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:51.600 gets dark so early, no one's doing any work, like, 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:56.320 let us go so depressing. Not every company even has 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.480 a summer Friday policy. But even when they don't, I 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.199 feel like they're is just like an accepted sense on 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:04.640 Friday afternoons in the summer that nobody's really getting any 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:09.040 work done early, saying all the time, should we not 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:11.560 should we just not work on Fridays? Like I think 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:13.800 we should work on Fridays, but I do think people 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:17.080 should get out early, but just we should accept that 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:19.520 the second half of every Friday all throughout the year 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:26.520 is garbage. But especially after the time change, particularly, we 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:28.320 should get some I feel like we should get some 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:32.760 kind of compensation or just help through that period because 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:36.679 that's that's a really rough transition winter Fridays. What's your 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:41.399 happy take? My happic take is about that awkward moment 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:45.800 when you talk to somebody in the office but they 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.840 don't respond because they have headphones on and they're listening 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:54.520 to music. It's usually not something that's important enough that 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:57.120 you are going to like go really out of your 0:24:57.119 --> 0:25:00.000 way to get them to yank their headphones out, like 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:01.560 walk over to them and chake them, or say their 0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:04.280 name a bunch of times really loud. But I just, 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.120 as with so many things, I just like I need 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:12.080 some kind of face saving etiquette for when I'm like, hey, Becca, 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:15.880 and then everyone in the office except Rebecca has heard 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:18.879