Speaker 1: A media.
Speaker 2: Every morning I wake up to one hundred punishments, each
Speaker 2: worse than the last. Also that I can bring you
Speaker 2: the greatest podcast of all time. I am at Zeitron
Speaker 2: and this is Better Offline. Now that we've got that
Speaker 2: out of the way, We've got many new items in
Speaker 2: the Better Offline merchantore go and buy them. There's a
Speaker 2: zip hoodie, which I fucking love, and a word mark
Speaker 2: shirt and a T shirt, and there's a hat it's lovely.
Speaker 2: You can also get infant clothings and I think like
Speaker 2: if you put that on a baby, though, they will
Speaker 2: take the baby from you anyway. So today I'm joined
Speaker 2: by the incredible Pablo Toure of Paplatory Finds Out and
Speaker 2: David Roth of defecta co owner of Defector and a turtle.
Speaker 1: I believe, Yes I do. I am the co owner
Speaker 1: of a turtle.
Speaker 2: What's the turtle's name.
Speaker 3: Turtle's name is Marvin, Marvin uh and he is what
Speaker 3: a pair of turtles? But Marvin is the surviving turtle. Oh,
Speaker 3: oh yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 1: They had he had.
Speaker 3: The other guy had a good long life. George had
Speaker 3: a good long life, okay, And something you don't learn
Speaker 3: when a man sells you a turtle out of a
Speaker 3: bucket of dry wall on Canal Street is.
Speaker 1: Oh, you got a Giinatown turtle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got a Chinatown turtle on an impulse twenty
Speaker 3: four years ago.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, so you've had them a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they live.
Speaker 3: Forever, like the people that the vets that treat them
Speaker 3: are also the vets that treat birds. And the lady
Speaker 3: that when I took Marvin to the vet because he'd
Speaker 3: been eating parts of the tank, I was told this
Speaker 3: was normal, that they happen. Whatever is around goes in
Speaker 3: and then it stays there until such time as he
Speaker 3: starts acting alarmingly enough that you take him to the vet.
Speaker 3: She also treats birds, and she was like, yeah, this
Speaker 3: is a This is a thing with your pets that
Speaker 3: are basically dinosaurs. Is that if left to their own devices,
Speaker 3: they will live for as long as their owners. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: which is cool to think about for the rest of
Speaker 3: my life.
Speaker 1: I got this little pet.
Speaker 2: I mean he.
Speaker 3: Doesn't like me, Like, that's pretty they do they show affection? No,
Speaker 3: I mean no, like it would be hard to tell.
Speaker 3: Like if I pick him up and like, you know,
Speaker 3: give him some pets on his sh.
Speaker 1: You appreciate your Bernie Sanders. I do communicate with him
Speaker 1: in a series of accents. Yeah. He responds well to Bernie.
Speaker 3: Once again asking that you eat this piece of ridicuo
Speaker 3: like your tank. Yeah, he well, they I guess that
Speaker 3: is how he responds to it is by eating the
Speaker 3: piece of ridicio that I've lowered into his tank. He
Speaker 3: loves chickeries. What's chickery any kind of chickeries? You know
Speaker 3: your cabbages, Castel Franco. I know Pablem's not talking about this.
Speaker 1: I'm mostly here to throw Bernie Xander's cues and cabbage reference. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you and forth with Rod.
Speaker 2: And that's what we're talking about today. So both of
Speaker 2: you guys are some of the most gifted sports broadcasters
Speaker 2: and writers I've ever met. Not blowing smoke, I don't give,
Speaker 2: but I think both of you have also done something
Speaker 2: really incredible with like the format in the sense that
Speaker 2: it's not like it's about sports insomuch as sports is
Speaker 2: part of the world and culture itself. Even in Pablo,
Speaker 2: you're like Jordan Hudson thing and the Bill Belichick stuff
Speaker 2: that was fascinating to me. Despite honestly wanting to know
Speaker 2: less about Bill Belichick, who is the former and the
Speaker 2: many non sports I.
Speaker 1: Love the disclosures here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the many non sports listeners say a sports episode,
Speaker 2: how dare you? Oh my god, do you want to
Speaker 2: hear me fucking talk about Kevin Russ again? Or do
Speaker 2: it in like one day? I'll probably do it on
Speaker 2: this podcast.
Speaker 1: You're already doing I'm.
Speaker 2: Already doing it though, but it's fascinating because it's.
Speaker 3: The underline that I could give you ninety minutes on
Speaker 3: the turtle. We already know that that's true, so that
Speaker 3: threat will hang over the rest of this podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm getting emails asking about more fucking telltle stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't have turtles.
Speaker 2: Wait?
Speaker 1: I didn't even ask, have you?
Speaker 2: So talking of it ended poorly, small, old wretched things.
Speaker 2: Bill Belichick is the coach now of unc University of
Speaker 2: North Carolina football coach, and he was the coach of
Speaker 2: the New England Patriots. And he has a go friend
Speaker 2: who is twenty four years old. So it's not really
Speaker 2: about the sports. It's about that there's just this random
Speaker 2: woman who has ingratiated herself into dunkin Donuts commercials and
Speaker 2: the like, and you kind of broke that story open
Speaker 2: in a very interesting way where it wasn't like just
Speaker 2: you on your own talking. You had to forget who
Speaker 2: else you.
Speaker 1: Had on Katie l and Michael cruz Kan as my accomplices. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in this journalistic act of alleged malpractice.
Speaker 2: Oh and now practice. According to Bill Simmons, who will explain.
Speaker 1: The bills, the bills in general aren't aren't necessarily cottoning.
Speaker 1: Most of your upper New England bills have had some
Speaker 1: issues with.
Speaker 2: It, your William problems. Yeah, And it's it's funny because
Speaker 2: the way you tell that story is not that you
Speaker 2: get a lot of people who do they talking to
Speaker 2: the camera stuff, But it feels that you kind of
Speaker 2: regale people with the tails and the journalism while also
Speaker 2: doing quite firm, well researched stuff as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was inspired by one of the things that
Speaker 1: has baffled me the most on YouTube, which is the
Speaker 1: unboxing video. Because the Unboxing video. Once I learned that
Speaker 1: there's this kid, I assume your audience is very familiar
Speaker 1: with Ryan's toys.
Speaker 2: I'm not so.
Speaker 3: I weirdly am familiar with Ryan's toys and I don't
Speaker 3: I don't have children, and my niece and nephew do
Speaker 3: not watch that ship and yet.
Speaker 2: My child does not watch YouTube ever.
Speaker 1: But this is just it's a kid, and in the channel,
Speaker 1: I believe, I believe we've watched Ryan, the eponymous Ryan
Speaker 1: Truly age in real time, thirty one years old, and
Speaker 1: he's been making like NBA Max contract money. Beyond that,
Speaker 1: well beyond that. Now I'm in the second and he
Speaker 1: just yes, but but, but but toys. Ryan's toys. His
Speaker 1: parents bring him toys that he then opens up and
Speaker 1: plays with, and the audience is in the tens of millions.
Speaker 1: He is an market type on YouTube. He's a he's
Speaker 1: a genre on too himself that has inspired so many imitators,
Speaker 1: all of which spoke something fascinating because you're watching again
Speaker 1: take the if you can put the pedophilia aside for okay,
Speaker 1: and you're just watching a kid open toys. The questions
Speaker 1: like that. That's not legally speaking, Roth, You know what
Speaker 1: I do and know what I have to do legally speaking.
Speaker 1: I had a talk with you before we walked up.
Speaker 1: You said you wouldn't call me out on my on
Speaker 1: my disclosure.
Speaker 3: I just think you were serious. I thought you were bluffing.
Speaker 3: I thought it was a power thing.
Speaker 1: Listen, circum if you just take this as a why
Speaker 1: is this so popular? Question? Right, there is something fascinating
Speaker 1: about it. You are watching, you are vicariously living through
Speaker 1: someone else authentically be surprised and delighted by something inside
Speaker 1: of a box. And this format has been imitated, copied,
Speaker 1: spread throughout YouTube. And so the whole idea of what
Speaker 1: if I could authentically surprise and delight a friend of mine,
Speaker 1: not with a I don't even know if a power
Speaker 1: ranger is is a reference.
Speaker 2: But something you found right?
Speaker 1: But but journalism actually right? What if the toy is
Speaker 1: journalism that they can then open up and play with
Speaker 1: and poke at and ask me questions about what if
Speaker 1: I did that? What if I could just sort of
Speaker 1: channel the thing that the sun god, that is the algorithm,
Speaker 1: seems to enjoy about the unboxing video? What if I
Speaker 1: could do that for journalism?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And so I did exhaustive, insanely exhaustive reporting into the
Speaker 1: Bill Balichick Jordan Hudson question, which is also a story
Speaker 1: about the highest paid employee in the state North Carolina
Speaker 1: public employee, who is also the archetype of a certain
Speaker 1: privacy discretion. Do your jobness sun Zoo cosplay now being
Speaker 1: sort of the opposite inverted by this woman who is
Speaker 1: now running his life beyond just the age gap stuff.
Speaker 1: What if I could do that for Katie Nolan, Michael
Speaker 1: cruz Gane and surprise and delight them with what I
Speaker 1: had investigated, right, And so that's kind of my solution
Speaker 1: to trying to make YouTube.
Speaker 2: Content and also kind of like a kind of radio
Speaker 2: show host as well. It's you've got like quite an
Speaker 2: interesting setup as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, we try to do. Look, the show is
Speaker 1: audio first, insofar as when I edit this show, I
Speaker 1: am only.
Speaker 2: Listening to you're editing it on your own.
Speaker 1: We have a staff of a half dozen few people
Speaker 1: who are on the editorial side.
Speaker 2: But me, I always I imagine you're right. Just I
Speaker 2: was gonna say if you did that earlier on that
Speaker 2: sounds not connecting.
Speaker 1: Even Sobird just like five different credits to the name iPhones,
Speaker 1: shocking everything on iPhones. I am doing a past an
Speaker 1: editorial pass which I am making cuts and all that
Speaker 1: stuff restructuring. But I'm only listening because I want someone
Speaker 1: who's only listening to not have the question of like,
Speaker 1: and it feels like they thought about a second, right,
Speaker 1: But also we are a three camera setup in our
Speaker 1: studio such that we are YouTube show, so that nobody
Speaker 1: watching on YouTube things they thought about a second, and
Speaker 1: so we are kind of torturing ourselves to be a
Speaker 1: fully fledged product. And already you can sense the sort
Speaker 1: of like the discomfort viscally of being a journalist who
Speaker 1: is making a product that I've analogized to a YouTube
Speaker 1: channel that is definitely not for pedophiles. We've established that
Speaker 1: you not say this more clearly, but but trying to
Speaker 1: be where people are with the knowledge that they probably
Speaker 1: won't switch platforms, They'll probably just gonna live wherever we
Speaker 1: find them, and we just gotta we just got to
Speaker 1: give them, hopefully something that they can spend some time.
Speaker 2: And you're fully independent or are you backed by some
Speaker 2: like the is.
Speaker 1: Dan Lebttard a corporate monolith?
Speaker 3: I don't know who that is. I love that technically
Speaker 3: is a private equity entity.
Speaker 2: That's how you say that.
Speaker 1: Do you know about the metals actually really interesting?
Speaker 2: No, I don't. But also I thought he was about
Speaker 2: todd Well like like the French.
Speaker 1: Like the Boston the French bread.
Speaker 2: Yes, the French Boston.
Speaker 1: Dan Dan Dan la Bastard is my corporate partner.
Speaker 2: That's a real disappointment.
Speaker 1: A Cuban guy with a French name who looks white.
Speaker 1: All of this is very in a country only.
Speaker 2: But beautiful.
Speaker 3: You should like, I would love problem. Maybe too modest
Speaker 3: to do it. Mental ark is an interesting experiment. You
Speaker 3: should talk about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So basically, Dan Lebutard left ESPN took his RSS
Speaker 1: feed with him, which is the key to starting a
Speaker 1: new business and microwaving of business is have your auto faith,
Speaker 1: have your feed right. And so what he did was
Speaker 1: he partnered with John Skipper, whos before president of ESPN,
Speaker 1: and they did not want to hire any ad salespeople,
Speaker 1: and so their licensing partner wound up being draft Kings
Speaker 1: and DraftKings you may know from every ad you've ever
Speaker 1: seen during a sporting event and otherwise. The point being
Speaker 1: that Dan, who wanted freedom, wanted editorial non interference whenever possible,
Speaker 1: found an arrangement in which, yes, the company got to
Speaker 1: choose its own editorial docket got backed by this company
Speaker 1: in which, by the way, I don't know if you
Speaker 1: pay attention to sports or better, I have not, but
Speaker 1: they have the money now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's kind of getting in bed with one devil, I.
Speaker 1: Guess, and and for legal reasons as well, I will
Speaker 1: not comment. Yeah yeah, yeah, but but but the short
Speaker 1: answer to where I am is that they funded Metal Lark,
Speaker 1: decided we want to start a new show from scratch.
Speaker 1: We want to trust this guy that we are friends
Speaker 1: with and and know and hopefully trusted, and uh, I
Speaker 1: got to create a show from scratch in now the
Speaker 1: vision that you have seen or heard. But where I
Speaker 1: am now, to speed run through my trajectory briefly, is
Speaker 1: that uh, Parbatory finds out is no longer in the
Speaker 1: licensing deal with DraftKings. We are now independent with Metal
Speaker 1: Lark as our co owner, but looking for a partner. Okay,
Speaker 1: And so if you're listening out there and you have
Speaker 1: a maybe open a yeah, they're definitely very good. They're good.
Speaker 4: They got now but we we we we.
Speaker 1: Just met with Palenteer. That's great. They really understand your audience.
Speaker 1: You should know the social.
Speaker 2: Everything about your audience.
Speaker 1: The w WE is not presenting us actually, and Dreill,
Speaker 1: what is interesting to me about this as somebody who
Speaker 1: also works in independent media. We'll talk about in a moment,
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 3: The way that you spent the money that you got
Speaker 3: from the corporate partner was like, obviously, the show looks good,
Speaker 3: it looks pro it sounds good, like there are talented
Speaker 3: people working on it. I've friends Jeb Lund did it
Speaker 3: was a guy that I do another podcast with Hallmark Movies,
Speaker 3: not out sports or yes, but like a subscribe yeah,
Speaker 3: but did a feature with you guys, and was like,
Speaker 3: I'm not I wouldn't say I was jealous exactly, but
Speaker 3: I was very impressed with the report repertorial apparatus behind
Speaker 3: all of this, and it's like it is it seemed
Speaker 3: more like working with sixty minutes than it would be
Speaker 3: like doing a story for Defector.
Speaker 2: You're so much better at matching my show.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, it seemed.
Speaker 3: But what I mean by this was that basically, like
Speaker 3: there were producers, there are people that were like, I'll
Speaker 3: file that foya for you.
Speaker 1: I will do Like we are trying to be an
Speaker 1: actual news magazine, an era in which news magazines are
Speaker 1: either compromised in various ways or does dead. Now we're
Speaker 1: just kind of giving up on doing that, right So, Jeb,
Speaker 1: by the way, who I cannot truss is enough co
Speaker 1: host pod with David Roths about Hallmarks.
Speaker 2: Okay, you can joke about this, but every single during CES,
Speaker 2: we did like thirteen and a half hours of audio,
Speaker 2: you know, not even an exaggeration, every single episode, and
Speaker 2: I did three thirty minute breaks so sections even at
Speaker 2: the end it was like David will podcast you, and
Speaker 2: every time like joyously, Yeah, okay, so this is great.
Speaker 3: I don't like promoting my shit, and it also felt
Speaker 3: weird because I was not holding myself out as an expert,
Speaker 3: but the idea of you know, I'm going off like
Speaker 3: you shouldn't be AI in vacuum cleaners.
Speaker 1: Bitch, you know, and just trying to do say that,
Speaker 1: trying to be big energy on it, and then at
Speaker 1: the end feeling like and if you like that, you're
Speaker 1: gonna love me, Like breaking down the worst performances of
Speaker 1: Candice Cameron's career every two months.
Speaker 2: A guy who kind of looks like Chad Michael Murray
Speaker 2: or Chat Michael Murray.
Speaker 3: Sometimes you do get Chad Michael Murray. But yes it
Speaker 3: is like a uh, we're off, we're firefield.
Speaker 1: Yeah I don't, but but what you said just to
Speaker 1: catch you ple up was we had Jeb blood And
Speaker 1: as a correspondent looking into his almae matter, which happened
Speaker 1: to be the college in Florida that Ron DEA. Sanders
Speaker 1: had taken over, oh and hed College, the New College
Speaker 1: of Florida, and he had taken it over, it turns
Speaker 1: out by basically bombing it with baseball players. So they
Speaker 1: turned over the student body, repoliticizing it, replacing, you may
Speaker 1: even say, great replacement, burying them the students, this deep
Speaker 1: and proud history of like, of liberal arts, of like,
Speaker 1: of like hippie dumb even replaced by baseball player recruits,
Speaker 1: so that they could then change the demographics of the
Speaker 1: institution as well as refocus everything in the model of various.
Speaker 2: Even if they tried to put any of this fucking
Speaker 2: effort into literally anything else.
Speaker 1: It's all pranks. Basically, if Christopher Ruffo, who shows up
Speaker 1: in that episode, what if he tried to do other things? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what if he tried What if he tried jumping out
Speaker 1: of a helicopter? Yeah, I don't know if that's not Yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: that's nice of you to say that, certainly, No, no, no, just.
Speaker 2: We are just riffing. Yeah, you don't not having fun.
Speaker 1: He could do anything. Maybe he flies, we don't know.
Speaker 3: But the bit that I wanted to underline with that, though,
Speaker 3: is that, like that sort of journalism is hard and expensive,
Speaker 3: but it is also it doesn't have to come out
Speaker 3: the other end as like morally safer sitting in a
Speaker 3: chair talking to a whistleblower.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like the bit that I have enjoyed the most about
Speaker 3: the certainly the bit about like Jordan Hudson is good
Speaker 3: for this. I mean, it's good on its own, but
Speaker 3: like so much of when we talk about journalism, we
Speaker 3: talk about, you know, the dangerous state that it's in,
Speaker 3: and you know all of that is is true, it's
Speaker 3: also fun, like it is a cool thing to do
Speaker 3: with your time.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the bit that I think you captured in that.
Speaker 3: Which is sort of like at the core of what
Speaker 3: makes like a good podcast good, is that, like, when
Speaker 3: you're reporting a story, there's this like sort of like
Speaker 3: Flowers for Maaldron one bit where like, for ninety minutes
Speaker 3: after you file the story, you are an expert on
Speaker 3: a thing that you just did all this reading and
Speaker 3: all this reporting on it. And then if you're like me,
Speaker 3: slowly the curtain drops and then when it goes back up,
Speaker 3: it's just like a nineteen eighty nine Dave Maggot and
Speaker 3: Baseball card at an empty stage. All of that goes away.
Speaker 3: But when you know your shit and you're like telling
Speaker 3: people crazy stuff that they don't know and they're responding
Speaker 3: to it, like, first of all, you feel more interesting
Speaker 3: than you actually are, but also, like I've been on
Speaker 3: both sides of it, it is fun.
Speaker 2: You also learn more about the material as you get
Speaker 2: someone to bounce off of. But I think.
Speaker 1: That that part, like I thank you for again pitching
Speaker 1: the show better than I could, because the premise I'm
Speaker 1: angling for a job. I mean, well, listen, mister, are
Speaker 1: you kill one more turtle? Something on your heads?
Speaker 2: To me?
Speaker 1: The idea here is that this stuff doesn't need to
Speaker 1: just be you know, and you ought to proposition. It's
Speaker 1: like you want to actually hang out while we're doing journalism, right,
Speaker 1: And that part of like it is stupid but smart.
Speaker 1: It is highbrow butt lowbrow. It is fundamentally silly and
Speaker 1: also nutritious in some meaningful way. That's why I love
Speaker 1: and I'm not yet tired by my job.
Speaker 2: And I'm the same way with better offline because I
Speaker 2: don't bother to worry so much about whether I'm perfect.
Speaker 2: As many people email me, thank.
Speaker 1: You, please have people reminding you, thank you.
Speaker 2: Oh, there's a slight echo in the room. There's a
Speaker 2: slight echo in my heart.
Speaker 6: Now, great note.
Speaker 2: But it's you get to talk about this stuff that's
Speaker 2: very serious. But when you read objective quote unquote journalist,
Speaker 2: it's just this dry, fucking pallid list of stuff with
Speaker 2: some degree of context, versus the very human reaction you
Speaker 2: can have to the news of the day, even if
Speaker 2: it isn't a conclusive thing, even if it's just open
Speaker 2: aye did this, or the very strange things that constantly
Speaker 2: happen with the Bill Belichick thing like Jordan Hudson getting
Speaker 2: banned from you and see like these moments, these moments
Speaker 2: are fascinating to discuss and lost in regular journalism. I
Speaker 2: find they just they go, well, this happened. Shit. Well.
Speaker 1: I also think that so much of our magnetic field
Speaker 1: in journalism is the sun god of the algorithm that
Speaker 1: I was describing before, and for me, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: Dave magnum aside, there are just lots of pockets of
Speaker 1: sports that are so much more fun than what the
Speaker 1: a block on a given talk show is that day,
Speaker 1: and I am somebody who often might be participating in
Speaker 1: that a block of like I love look, and I'm
Speaker 1: not here to say sports television. It's merely that they
Speaker 1: have dined at the same buffet for so long that
Speaker 1: there's all this other stuff and so it's hard to
Speaker 1: not just like speaking the language of endless metaphor here,
Speaker 1: but like, what if there's a restaurant that also served
Speaker 1: the other things on the menu?
Speaker 5: Yeh.
Speaker 2: But even one of my favorite dining experiences I had recently,
Speaker 2: my dear friend Noah Arenstein, friend of the show. I
Speaker 2: went out with him to them Andy cap Fe, which
Speaker 2: is exactly what it sounds like, and he ordered it.
Speaker 2: And there's this guy Chris Crowley there thinking he works
Speaker 2: at New York Magazine or New Yorker. He's going to
Speaker 2: be really pissed. I forgot about that. It was so
Speaker 2: nice to just be there with two experts to just
Speaker 2: tell me what the fuck was going on. Then we
Speaker 2: went to the Long Island Bar, I think it's the
Speaker 2: place port and just having them regale with the stories with.
Speaker 1: The Long Island Bar down on the Avenue. Yeah, yeah, yah,
Speaker 1: good Burger there, and it.
Speaker 2: Was just like try the cheese coats. Seeing around with
Speaker 2: someone who really loves and knows a shit ton about
Speaker 2: something and having a discussion about it. He's electric and fun.
Speaker 2: It's the basis of all well not all podcasting, but
Speaker 2: it's the basis of why we like entertainment and why
Speaker 2: we have experts in general. But I feel like it's
Speaker 2: something kind of lost on modern journal like you don't,
Speaker 2: oh you know us. I had a journalisty the other
Speaker 2: day and be like, oh, yeah, they don't want us
Speaker 2: to do an opinion about the subjects we write about.
Speaker 2: I don't want to fucking shoot myself. It was just like, oh,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want the people who know stuff to talk
Speaker 2: about this. They might it's a category.
Speaker 3: I also think that it's one of those things where
Speaker 3: and I understand how if you work in a s
Speaker 3: pious news gathering organization like you would take this work seriously,
Speaker 3: But there's also something very useful about taking stupid shit
Speaker 3: seriously in this case, which is basically this is another
Speaker 3: bit uh defectory experience with this. We were filing a
Speaker 3: bunch of foyers to unc everybody is to try to
Speaker 3: figure out you know, what are the emails exchanged between
Speaker 3: Bill Belichick and Jordan Hudson and the provost and whoever whatever,
Speaker 3: Just for yucks, we saw that one of Pablo's producers
Speaker 3: had filed one hundred.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was just funny because it's like
Speaker 1: you can see who else is sort of in there.
Speaker 1: We're doing this today seeing what else people filed.
Speaker 3: But I love that, like the idea of I mean,
Speaker 3: all of those cost a little bit of money, all
Speaker 3: of them takes some time to do, and yet it
Speaker 3: is like you're gonna get a better product out of
Speaker 3: the other end of it. But also it's funny to
Speaker 3: spend time using the Freedom of Incremation Act or stuff
Speaker 3: like that. It doesn't all need to be taking.
Speaker 2: Down this very bizarre took lesque man and he is
Speaker 2: extremely I'm not getting into the age discourse. It's not
Speaker 2: worth it, I'm but.
Speaker 3: It's the bit that people should know if they don't
Speaker 3: follow sports, is that Bill Belichick is the crustiest, nastiest dude,
Speaker 3: just like a guy famous for like being like rude
Speaker 3: to reporters, rude with.
Speaker 2: People here like a hoodie with holes in it, and.
Speaker 1: He looks a Trump. I mean, he's something of that
Speaker 1: Trump spoke about at one Dais or another where he says,
Speaker 1: there's this letter, this letter, this correspondence between Belichick and Trump.
Speaker 1: He's he is in many ways truly the paragon of
Speaker 1: what it means to be the greatest coach in football,
Speaker 1: many believe, and also the biggest asshole. Yeah, and is
Speaker 1: he is both. And so this being the character at
Speaker 1: the heart of this is partly why Yes, we did
Speaker 1: have one of our producers file hundreds of public.
Speaker 3: Record, but that's like to me that and I think
Speaker 3: that all of this stuff that I remember most fondly
Speaker 3: reading has that element of like applying a great deal
Speaker 3: of rigor and work, like not just in terms of
Speaker 3: and craft too, obviously, like you wanted to read well
Speaker 3: and sound good and all that, but doing way more
Speaker 3: than you need to on a silly thing is to
Speaker 3: me like basically one hundred times out of one hundred.
Speaker 2: And everyone has a weird proclivity. I can talk about
Speaker 2: for hours. That's why I can't legally bring up jud
Speaker 2: Jo's bizarre adventure on the show anymore. My heart ready
Speaker 2: informed me this morning. But it's just also we all
Speaker 2: have our own things. So watching someone else through that
Speaker 2: and put real love and effort and sincerity into it
Speaker 2: is a powerful and interesting thing. And shooting the shit
Speaker 2: with some people that actually give a shit about who
Speaker 2: might not know everything. So it's kind of like friends
Speaker 2: having a discussion but taken seriously.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the sort of dynamic that I imagine
Speaker 3: makes Rogan work for people, which is basically like two
Speaker 3: guys just like you know, going back and.
Speaker 1: Forth for a while. But if like one of those people.
Speaker 3: Has to know what they're talking about, ideally another one
Speaker 3: of them would be funny like that, Basically the armature
Speaker 3: is there. Yeah, and then if you populate it with
Speaker 3: people that you know, like you happen to have two
Speaker 3: really good counterpunchers in there, Katie Nolan, like legendary video
Speaker 3: talents of her that like you do that, and then
Speaker 3: like you make sure that you know this stuff like
Speaker 3: a to Z Like that's I mean whatever, it's not revolutionary,
Speaker 3: like you said, but it is also like that's just
Speaker 3: a product of doing a good job.
Speaker 1: It's also something that isn't incentivized given the basic math
Speaker 1: of how to do anything now. Right, So the whole
Speaker 1: idea of like we're going to spend a lot of work,
Speaker 1: a lot of money. I mean, again, I cannot stress
Speaker 1: enough how much of Dan Lebutard's money I've been spent
Speaker 1: to do this stuff. And I don't expect anybody else
Speaker 1: like the whole question. At a certain point that you
Speaker 1: begin to contemplate around like what did we do here?
Speaker 1: What is this format? Why does it work? Who else
Speaker 1: can compete with us in this category? Like in Silicon Valley,
Speaker 1: As you know, they talk about the moat a lot, right,
Speaker 1: how do you build a moat around yourself? I am
Speaker 1: pleased to report that our moat is just our weird obsessiveness.
Speaker 2: And the people the literally like you, and you.
Speaker 1: Like yes, No, it's do you obsess about this enough
Speaker 1: such that you want to spend money hiring people who
Speaker 1: are going to obsess about it even more? And that
Speaker 1: is again, if you're gonna start from scratch, it's not
Speaker 1: what I would advise anyone to do.
Speaker 2: I actually don't know if I agree. I like the
Speaker 2: high production. I think taking stuff seriously on the production
Speaker 2: level is good, but I don't know. I have I
Speaker 2: put our newsletter this morning's Monday, the sixteenth of June.
Speaker 2: I'll probably do a new podcasts about it as well.
Speaker 2: But it's like, I feel like they all want the
Speaker 2: Joe Rogan of the left, and they're like, how does
Speaker 2: this keep happening? We have this amicable OAF who's curious
Speaker 2: about everything because he knows nothing. Oh, and we also
Speaker 2: have this insanely high production thing. We make sure that
Speaker 2: everything's done really well and it sounds good and it
Speaker 2: looks good, and it's well done on social and the subject.
Speaker 2: He clearly has someone doing the research for him, because
Speaker 2: if he has three hours of questions off there, he
Speaker 2: may just be like a true.
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know that he's doing any research.
Speaker 2: No, I don't like for him, all right, yeah, for him,
Speaker 2: Like I would not be surprised if he didn't know
Speaker 2: who was in front of him, Like who you know,
Speaker 2: who's this, Jamie? That's Donald Trump? Donald Trump?
Speaker 1: Is he good?
Speaker 2: Is he?
Speaker 1: Is he any good?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Hi? Like it's I mean, there's also Lex Friedman, which
Speaker 2: is just a.
Speaker 1: Mystery, but it's I have many follow ups about about Lex. I.
Speaker 2: Well, my first question is why can't he say a sentence?
Speaker 2: He's just like hello, I'm.
Speaker 1: Al struck by this.
Speaker 3: On those podcasts, things that are like popular that are
Speaker 3: not for me. Yes, like that's the story of my life.
Speaker 3: It's fine. It's just like it's way easier for me
Speaker 3: to even you know, like seeing a few minutes of
Speaker 3: ant Man and the Wasp and I'm like, nope, not
Speaker 3: that does not go you know, in any of my.
Speaker 2: But that makes sense.
Speaker 1: But it's also I'm just saying that it's like not
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 3: The idea of watching a podcast where like someone who
Speaker 3: is obviously either both unprepared or just like not good
Speaker 3: at talking, Like I don't get how that.
Speaker 2: Was mental latency, like he he during the Donald Trump interview.
Speaker 2: I only watch bits of because I don't want to die.
Speaker 2: He goes, Bolatics is a dirty game, and he just pausing, goes,
Speaker 2: how do you win at that game? This is the
Speaker 2: most popular tech podcast.
Speaker 1: Really good, And it's.
Speaker 2: Just like, yeah, this is very true. Like it's just
Speaker 2: like so bad.
Speaker 1: It's like I love that he wears black tie. Yeah
Speaker 1: does he? He wears like he always wears like a
Speaker 1: black sea with a black tie and a white Stark shirt.
Speaker 1: So cool. Yeah, like the cater waiter swag. That's a
Speaker 1: really solid, real party down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks like a guy John I don't. But
Speaker 2: with stuff like that, I'm just insulted by the whole
Speaker 2: ex fertment thing. He's so bad. But those podcasts also
Speaker 2: like six hours so long. He did one with Sam
Speaker 2: Mormon for like four hours. He could have said anything.
Speaker 2: I can't watch it. I try to. My brain stops.
Speaker 2: My brain just like shuts down. It's like I've been
Speaker 2: in a car accident.
Speaker 1: That's an awfully long time to be spending with any dudes,
Speaker 1: let alone if one of the him.
Speaker 2: Samuel, and he's just like, yeah, you know dedis senders.
Speaker 2: We wild themselves now, And it's like, wow, what is dead?
Speaker 2: How do you computer?
Speaker 1: Ye?
Speaker 2: I wish.
Speaker 1: I hope this is as long as the Irishman.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: I want, I want all of that.
Speaker 2: I want to be on next Rippons so bad. I
Speaker 2: should just be clear. I'm going to read him riddles
Speaker 2: like it's going to be amazing. But you look at
Speaker 2: like Theovon or Joe Rogan and you see the productions good.
Speaker 2: Theovon is a good interviewer. He's got despite his insane
Speaker 2: that he has like an insanely long name. Do you
Speaker 2: know his name? His name, his real name? Oh my christ,
Speaker 2: it is so happy to be the dutchessh this is
Speaker 2: something or other likes or whatever it comes after it.
Speaker 2: Theovon's real name is Theodore Capitani von Kernatowski, the third.
Speaker 2: That's right, one of the greatest names of all time,
Speaker 2: and his the whole thing has been.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, damn, yeah, this is a good decision by
Speaker 1: THEO Vonn to go by Theovn given the proceeding Yeah.
Speaker 2: It'd be so much funnyer if he us this whole
Speaker 2: name though, and kept her and they're like, yeah, my
Speaker 2: name is current. But but you don't get the sense
Speaker 2: from Rogan or Kernatowski, uh, that they that they're condescending
Speaker 2: or that they have like maybe they are in some
Speaker 2: way to like people of color, I don't know, but
Speaker 2: they have a genuine like, oh, I want to be here,
Speaker 2: I'm interested, I'm interested in getting good material out of you.
Speaker 2: And it's kind of like calm and effortless, and it's
Speaker 2: like maybe there is effort behind it, but it's just
Speaker 2: it feels like a lot of that is just genuinely
Speaker 2: missing for media. It's something you both do in podcasts,
Speaker 2: and you obviously do when more podcasts Pablo as well,
Speaker 2: but it's just like, let's get the let's get some
Speaker 2: interesting ship. Let's have a good conversation, because I don't
Speaker 2: know several people who know each other discussing something interesting
Speaker 2: might have a good interesting conversation, like you could listen
Speaker 2: to on your on your phone in the podcast It's
Speaker 2: not that hard?
Speaker 1: What's hard about it? Though? I'll tell you what I've
Speaker 1: found hard about it? And I mean it's different.
Speaker 2: I don't mean it's not that hard.
Speaker 3: No, it isn't that hard. I mean it's not hard
Speaker 3: relative to like we know that people like it, you know,
Speaker 3: and so like doing it well is a skill that
Speaker 3: you can learn and we've enjoyed when Pablo's come on.
Speaker 1: The Defector podcast distraction, like it's like getting to shoot around.
Speaker 3: With a with like Lebron, Like, you're just you've done
Speaker 3: a lot of this, You're really good at talking. You've
Speaker 3: less verbal junk than I do. Like it's fun, you're
Speaker 3: a verbal junk baller. I'm just absolutely.
Speaker 1: But beyond that, I think that so that is like
Speaker 1: it's a learnable skill to be able to do the
Speaker 1: challenge for me though, is I want to be as
Speaker 1: good at talking or as knowledgeable as whoever is on
Speaker 1: and for the most part, I'm not.
Speaker 3: And that's not a criticism of me. It just means that,
Speaker 3: like you have to be willing to ask simpleton type questions.
Speaker 2: You want to put this in a more empathetic sense.
Speaker 2: Same with the listeners, right, they're logging on to hear
Speaker 2: you tell them something and maybe you Pablo telling you
Speaker 2: something that you don't know, and you learning, maybe they too,
Speaker 2: We'll learn. It's something Robert and Sophie earlier on said.
Speaker 2: It's just like, if you don't know something, don't just
Speaker 2: ask every time you have to, because there will be
Speaker 2: a listener who's.
Speaker 1: Like total I believe it's funny to mention like Lebron
Speaker 1: because oftentimes I have to do the exercise my mind
Speaker 1: of like do I need to explain who Lebron is
Speaker 1: to people?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Like truly, like I presume that the audience that comes
Speaker 1: to my show does not know anything about anything.
Speaker 2: And Lebron James is a basketball player.
Speaker 3: If you on the one of the biggest basketball men
Speaker 3: we've got, he's he's really good, prominent, he's very strong.
Speaker 1: But but what I would say about about like what
Speaker 1: about like meeting the listener wherever they are it is
Speaker 1: to me. It is about the exercise of can I
Speaker 1: make someone who doesn't give a single ship about this
Speaker 1: care about this story? And so we do stories about
Speaker 1: fencing corruption, We'll do stories. I mean, I can I
Speaker 1: could waste your time mentioning all of the obscure things
Speaker 1: that I have I think confy into listening to.
Speaker 2: I mean, Hankazari or interview was fascinating. That was like
Speaker 2: the furthest from what you agullly do because and he
Speaker 2: wasn't telling just stories about like the Simpson stuff, like it.
Speaker 1: Was like he was great. And we tried to the
Speaker 1: joke of my shows that were a technically sports show,
Speaker 1: which means that like somewhere like an easter egg, you'll
Speaker 1: see a sports reference. I don't think anybody cares enough
Speaker 1: to check the box, but I'd check the box. And Roth,
Speaker 1: by the way, just to the thing. The problem I
Speaker 1: want to pay him is that when it comes to
Speaker 1: like thinking about politics in a way that speaks so
Speaker 1: fluently the languages of HyperIntelligence and utter stupidity, no one
Speaker 1: is better at David Roth and diagnosing that in Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: that's nice, Like you need to be someone who was
Speaker 1: so brilliant that they're also a moron and roth like truly,
Speaker 1: it's it's being fluent at both sort of registers.
Speaker 2: And did the one of my favorite ones is like
Speaker 2: my good friend Beetle Juice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of because the idea of thinking
Speaker 1: about who you could convince him is a real guy
Speaker 1: as a fan of his, he's segning you know, I knew,
Speaker 1: well we were friends, we were great friends, but we're
Speaker 1: not friends anymore.
Speaker 6: Can die.
Speaker 3: But the the bit that I the dumb question thing,
Speaker 3: the version of it that I sort of like, whatever,
Speaker 3: this is like positive self talk that he was saying
Speaker 3: into a microphone we had.
Speaker 1: Bob mold On was Bob old uh hooskerdoo and sugar
Speaker 1: like iconic punk rock musician man.
Speaker 3: And also very strong yes and a sweet yeah. Also
Speaker 3: worked in wrestling and really just like one of the
Speaker 3: most interesting guys in the listening as a writer, not
Speaker 3: as a as a performer. But he uh, you know
Speaker 3: those bands being a great deal to me. M he
Speaker 3: is my co host Drew McGarry's favorite musician. And the
Speaker 3: question that I asked him basically after you know he
Speaker 3: had a new album out to listen to it and
Speaker 3: I don't know enough about it helped that it was
Speaker 3: about music, which is basically just a foreign language to me.
Speaker 3: So I can't be like, when you made this decision,
Speaker 3: your fretwork on the bridge here to like I can't
Speaker 3: you know, like I even saying it here, I had to.
Speaker 3: I had to do the dumb guy voice to put
Speaker 3: it over. But I asked him like is it fun
Speaker 3: to write a song?
Speaker 1: Like is it is it cool for you?
Speaker 2: That question?
Speaker 3: And I think I had to get past the anxiety
Speaker 3: of like asking someone I respect a question that is
Speaker 3: basically like something a seven year old would have asked,
Speaker 3: and yet like we got a really good answer, and
Speaker 3: also like I wanted to know, you know, like it's
Speaker 3: better to admit what you don't know and ask the
Speaker 3: seven year old question than it is to try to
Speaker 3: like bluff and do the expertise thing along with someone
Speaker 3: who's a real expert.
Speaker 2: And I have I have this theory that I will
Speaker 2: never be able to prove, which is I think most
Speaker 2: people forget stuff all the time, Like you will be
Speaker 2: on listening to something and be like who's Lebron James
Speaker 2: go fuck uh golf uh? You know, or like who
Speaker 2: and like you will forget all terms, Like on the show,
Speaker 2: I ownerous thing and people say you repeat yourself. I
Speaker 2: repeat myself, like defining what generated AI's probabilistic, What does
Speaker 2: that mean that? Because sometimes you will be listening to
Speaker 2: an hour and a half of me talking, you might
Speaker 2: fucking forget something. And also being empathetic I don't know
Speaker 2: with like when I'm hanging out with my friends, people
Speaker 2: don't know shit all the time. Part of the fun
Speaker 2: thing of being in live is helping people know stuff
Speaker 2: and having shared experiences. And I love that question of what,
Speaker 2: like I want to ask And this is for somewhat
Speaker 2: meaner reasons. My dream question to ask any tech executive
Speaker 2: is are you happy? I want to ask sundarp As
Speaker 2: Shy are you happy? Because it's a hell of a
Speaker 2: question because you want to say yes, But you know
Speaker 2: I've got a follow up what makes you happy? And
Speaker 2: you know they don't have ship for.
Speaker 1: Him for all the stuff.
Speaker 3: He's the guy that gave the interview where he's like,
Speaker 3: all day I'm just fucking asking questions of our AI.
Speaker 1: I talked to Gemini all day long.
Speaker 2: That's such a dela of micro That's what it was.
Speaker 2: No similar gargoyle like yeah.
Speaker 1: But it's just profiling on my part wrong. Remove it
Speaker 1: from the.
Speaker 2: Podcast profiling of like extremely rich asshole rooming products. I mean,
Speaker 2: like you welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: But there was something I think the idea of like
Speaker 3: what is any of this four?
Speaker 1: Is that a good question to ask yourself? To bring
Speaker 1: it back to Rogan for a second, though, it also
Speaker 1: feels like anyone whose industry is seeing rates of ketamine
Speaker 1: usage increase so dramatically cannot possibly what does that indicate
Speaker 1: to you? It just it just feels like there is
Speaker 1: a fundamental searching for something like fulfillment and a happiness.
Speaker 2: With lonely and by the way, like this the one
Speaker 2: is like like everyone is more disconnected.
Speaker 1: And I find that in sports of course, Like if
Speaker 1: there's any lesson to learn from Bill Balichick and Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan and Tom Brady and every greatest of all time
Speaker 1: and any category you want, it is that they wont
Speaker 1: everything and are miserable.
Speaker 2: Yes, completely, And and.
Speaker 1: So how do you fill the void that you thought
Speaker 1: the trophies, the money the generative AI was going to fill?
Speaker 1: You search for other things like the Silicon Valley thing. Again,
Speaker 1: I'm not, by the way, something I'm frustrated by is
Speaker 1: just how now uncool Joe Rogan made psychedelics? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: maybe maybe I'm the least cool person to think of
Speaker 1: it in those terms. The point being, though, that there
Speaker 1: is something that is missing that people are trying to find,
Speaker 1: and I think, are you happy? I presume that all
Speaker 1: of them are actually quite on.
Speaker 2: And I would be this would be a hostile interview
Speaker 2: technique that they will never because one of my favorite
Speaker 2: things is that I grew up thinking I was stupid.
Speaker 2: I thought I was stupid until like two years ago.
Speaker 2: I'm deadly fucking serious. It's an incredible technique.
Speaker 1: Though no amount of you have like a real nice house, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like there was no point where you were like damn,
Speaker 1: non accidents keep happening.
Speaker 2: No, it's luck.
Speaker 1: Like I like how the thing where you have the
Speaker 1: accent that makes you sound smart didn't work on you
Speaker 1: as it did, But it means though.
Speaker 3: It's worked on me from the very beginning, Like, damn,
Speaker 3: this guy really knows his Raiders football?
Speaker 1: How did he learn so much?
Speaker 2: Oh God, I'm gonna get emails about the writers. Do
Speaker 2: you know? Looks good? I think broke anyway, But it
Speaker 2: means that I've never walked into a room being like, oh,
Speaker 2: I hope he doesn't think I'm stupid, which is actually
Speaker 2: useful for the business as well. But in I need
Speaker 2: give an interview, I feel like interviewers Neilipetel will go
Speaker 2: in there and be like, I'm going to ask the
Speaker 2: best fucking questions in the world, not the most useful,
Speaker 2: not the most interesting, but the ones that make them
Speaker 2: sound good and get the biggest, most self ingratiating thing done.
Speaker 2: And I understand why, but it's you have access to
Speaker 2: someone that people don't have access to. Can you at
Speaker 2: least get something new? Can you at least not line
Speaker 2: them up with the buffet of options. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you get it as much in sports, just because
Speaker 2: if someone lies about being good at sports and then
Speaker 2: goes and plays poorly, you can notice.
Speaker 1: That, Oh but sports is full. We did an episode
Speaker 1: actually that's kind of related to this, and it's about
Speaker 1: kind of the tyranny of jargon in sports and how
Speaker 1: lots of people are trying to perform the vocabulary of
Speaker 1: a coach, which is kind of like, right, like a scout.
Speaker 2: What is the vocabulary of a coach or a scout?
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of phrases. Do you have like
Speaker 3: a couple of like brown note like nightmare phrases?
Speaker 2: For me?
Speaker 1: Is impact winning? That's an NBA one?
Speaker 2: Does that mean it means it's a good basketball player.
Speaker 1: It's the most annoying way to say that. This is
Speaker 1: all No, it's not.
Speaker 2: It's not like it that's that's like an it's almost like.
Speaker 1: An idiomatic just sort of like so they just say
Speaker 1: someone's an impact. But there's also just like the Fighter
Speaker 1: Pilot kind of like call sign stuff where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: Spider to wy Banana, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of what within sport?
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, just within the game.
Speaker 1: So Spider too by Banana? Is this is a play
Speaker 1: call that I will not even begin to summary. I
Speaker 1: thought I thought you were literally Spider doing like a
Speaker 1: plain thing.
Speaker 3: It is a John Gruden play. I know a listener
Speaker 3: of the pod friend friend of.
Speaker 1: It friend, but I don't even know what a friend
Speaker 1: Spider apocryphal or it's real not because Ed's been to
Speaker 1: uh Gruden's quarterback. Yeah camp, you were doing squads with due.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jered Lorenzen coach. It didn't go well.
Speaker 1: R I p Yeah, briefs so yeah, but there is
Speaker 1: there's all this vocabulary that sort of signals that you
Speaker 1: have the fluency of a of a of of of
Speaker 1: of a code that is so indecipherable, uh to the
Speaker 1: outside person that it becomes a point of pride. And
Speaker 1: so in sports there's just a lot of peacocking around
Speaker 1: that language, a lot of like, oh, they're you know,
Speaker 1: they're running cover three there, but they're doing a stunt
Speaker 1: of them a gap to be just like stuff that's
Speaker 1: meant to exclude. And so when you say, like a
Speaker 1: person who asks a question that is intended to signal
Speaker 1: their knowledge as opposed to help the listener understand anything,
Speaker 1: I think of the ways in which people are cause
Speaker 1: playing coaching all of the time. And also it's kind
Speaker 1: of why as much as we have already been crapping
Speaker 1: all over Joe Rogan and theo Von something that I
Speaker 1: do appreciate generally speaking, I've not listen to all their episodes,
Speaker 1: but what they do tend to do is not try
Speaker 1: and perform over intelligence.
Speaker 2: And the thing is you can say, like I've seen
Speaker 2: some THEOV and I've seen some Joe Rug and they
Speaker 2: fucking host white supremacists in the open it fucking sucks.
Speaker 2: You can still look at the format and learn, and
Speaker 2: I think people have trouble separating those things because it
Speaker 2: really comes down to they their questions are simple, and
Speaker 2: then they get like Jordan pieces of prok. Have you
Speaker 2: seen the Nightmaan Man? Yeah, like you just some insane shit.
Speaker 2: And then he says nothing to that because he dru
Speaker 2: rug is like, yeah, yeah, I met I knew a
Speaker 2: guy like that.
Speaker 1: That happened to my buddy Eric. Yeah, yeah, there is
Speaker 1: that sense.
Speaker 3: I think also there's a difference in sports discourse where
Speaker 3: there's everything that you said about, like the sort of
Speaker 3: ostentatious performance of expertise and like inside y you know,
Speaker 3: like everybody wants to be plugged in. Yeah, it has
Speaker 3: impacted in some ways, like the language. In fact, I
Speaker 3: just used impact as a verse.
Speaker 1: It's clearly it's mainly something on an impact made an
Speaker 1: impact on like a concussive. You used it correctly, yes,
Speaker 1: I guess I did.
Speaker 3: But the way that that's like worked out, I think
Speaker 3: that there's the way that people like Scoop Smith type
Speaker 3: guys here, like Seamstrania dudes, like they write not in
Speaker 3: like a syntax that is observable outside of text messages
Speaker 3: from Russians to guys like him, that there's something very
Speaker 3: like artificial and.
Speaker 2: Shouts just for the listeners. Is a guy who mostly
Speaker 2: says a guy has been traded.
Speaker 1: Yes, he says it first, he exactly, he is five
Speaker 1: seconds ahead of the actual public.
Speaker 2: And he also was the one that scooped Donald Trump
Speaker 2: getting COVID.
Speaker 1: I hate that gets yeah.
Speaker 2: And what sucks is I found out through I was
Speaker 2: speaking to someone at the time for some reason I
Speaker 2: can't disclose, and they showed me a clip from the
Speaker 2: barstool show the Yak when it happened, and when they
Speaker 2: showed this guy on their Stephen Chay, and it's just
Speaker 2: like the worst ten minutes of just like a guy
Speaker 2: who made basically was like, yeah, I think Shams would
Speaker 2: break World War three, and just these guys like wanting
Speaker 2: him to be wrong, and they just hate every like
Speaker 2: everyone's kind of miserable, like anyway, so Shams just breaks news.
Speaker 3: That's his only and that he's like there's a guy
Speaker 3: that does it for the NFL. Yes, a guy they're
Speaker 3: trying to make Jeff Passon, who's like an ace feature writer.
Speaker 3: They're trying to make him that guy for baseball.
Speaker 1: And the incentives are to be a newsbreaker because you
Speaker 1: are I mean, by the way, when Woj was doing this,
Speaker 1: Adrian Morjenerowski, who I should disclose is a person who
Speaker 1: now works for Saint Bonaventure's university. Yeah, he's the GM,
Speaker 1: but was making you know, millions on millions of dollars
Speaker 1: being the newsbreaker basically like the human Uh yeah, like
Speaker 1: scoop machine that fielding texts and there was just a
Speaker 1: bit n I don't know if you remember this, but
Speaker 1: during the NBA draft one year when Woj I think
Speaker 1: was at ESPN, so he was working for the broadcaster
Speaker 1: of the draft, but trying to scoop the draft. You're
Speaker 1: talking by five seconds ahead, and so in order to
Speaker 1: get through the to thread the needle, uh, he ended
Speaker 1: up just not saying the bulls are about to take
Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler or whatever this is. You know, got reck
Speaker 1: conning data or yes, but it's basically like the bulls
Speaker 1: are targeting the phoenix, suns are circling.
Speaker 3: He kept coming up with new phrasing and it's hard.
Speaker 3: There's like thirty two picks. So he'd be like, I'm
Speaker 3: hearing that The bulls are in Source so Old by
Speaker 3: Wendell Carter Junior.
Speaker 2: At the Spot, which is just, I mean, every single
Speaker 2: better off line episode says walks you through Yeah, because
Speaker 2: I cannot fucking think of another way to say it,
Speaker 2: and I refuse, so I ge't miss the But.
Speaker 3: You can see all of what we're describing here. These
Speaker 3: are not These are great paying jobs, and they do
Speaker 3: tend to select for people who are like metabolically capable
Speaker 3: of responding to text messages for twenty hours a day.
Speaker 1: But yeah, although when woj' that's me. When wod left
Speaker 1: the job, he was basically like this sucks. I hate
Speaker 1: it again. I'm having a hard time. Like who's like,
Speaker 1: I'm unhappy? Yeah, was basically his press release and like, yeah, whatever,
Speaker 1: the opposite of Michael Jordan, I'm back. He's just like Nope,
Speaker 1: I'm not the whole thing.
Speaker 3: But like that is a function of all of this.
Speaker 3: But I think the bit that is kind of missing
Speaker 3: from it, and you see it when you know, like
Speaker 3: when a podcast works, or if you're reading a story
Speaker 3: that's written by somebody who is given the space and
Speaker 3: the time to write something that they like, which is
Speaker 3: increasingly rare all this shit is fun. Everybody's here because
Speaker 3: it's fun. No one is here because it is important that,
Speaker 3: like especially with sports, there are aspects of it that
Speaker 3: you can use as sort of like a way into
Speaker 3: seeing things about the broader culture that are important. But
Speaker 3: none of this is like mandatory, right, you know, And
Speaker 3: so the game and so to the extent that you
Speaker 3: can talk about it in a way that is fun
Speaker 3: and that is not either like actionable gambling intelligence or
Speaker 3: part of some like endless barber shop set to that
Speaker 3: where everybody's arguing about who's now or somebody's legacy or whatever.
Speaker 2: Legacy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of the best topics to play fight
Speaker 3: about with the fellas.
Speaker 2: So the thing is, this is something missing from the
Speaker 2: tech industry, because most people in tech when you talk
Speaker 2: to don't seem to want to talk about anything. You've
Speaker 2: got this growth of who is it? I really should
Speaker 2: know this one? Ryan Something. There's a former player who
Speaker 2: has a really good podcast with a bunch of players,
Speaker 2: Ryan Clark, Yes, Ryan Clark, and he just sits around
Speaker 2: and he has very serious conversations, sometimes quite joking ones
Speaker 2: with other people that have played games of sports for money.
Speaker 2: And that's why It's interesting because you're hearing their experiences
Speaker 2: and it's kind of rough and ready probably a little
Speaker 2: bit cleaned up more than we know. I imagine some of it.
Speaker 2: I don't know in his case, but I imagine there
Speaker 2: are more harsh parks.
Speaker 3: Got like a real job to avoid losing. But I
Speaker 3: do think that there's what you're talking about, though, is
Speaker 3: that like people want something authentic.
Speaker 2: And the tech industry constantly tries to create it, but
Speaker 2: it always ends up being a venture capitalist and three
Speaker 2: of their investments being like you know, I was using
Speaker 2: general if Ai the other day and it just changed
Speaker 2: my life. How I were going to add break and
Speaker 2: it's just like these fucking people pissed me off because
Speaker 2: tech is so universal, whether or not you consider yourself technical.
Speaker 2: Kind of the same way with the sport. It's like baseball.
Speaker 2: One of my favorite Casey Kagawa, friend of the show,
Speaker 2: once said it to me. It's like it's still a
Speaker 2: child's game. It's still the same game. Aaron Judge plays
Speaker 2: baseball a lot better than a kid playing little but
Speaker 2: he's still hitting a fucking ball, And there was something
Speaker 2: universal about that. I think tech's getting there. Perhaps we're
Speaker 2: not they're quite I think most people are not accepting
Speaker 2: it yet. But the fact is, I think there is
Speaker 2: something deeply personal about tech that no one's fucking touching
Speaker 2: in this way, and they should because it's interesting.
Speaker 3: This is one of the big edd points to me,
Speaker 3: one of the ones that I think like you were
Speaker 3: first to and should be repeating as often as possible,
Speaker 3: which is that basically everybody that at some point everybody
Speaker 3: liked all this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now they don't, and they still.
Speaker 2: They like they like the stuff, they hate the tech and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I think that like and so that
Speaker 1: you know, you create this demand for people that they you.
Speaker 3: Know, it's cool to be able to like read anything
Speaker 3: as it happens, Like it will make you insane, but
Speaker 3: it's not bad, Like it's like kind of gratitude actually, yes,
Speaker 3: And yet like that you take that interest and then
Speaker 3: you use that to like sort of leverage ways to
Speaker 3: make more and more money off of it and dilute
Speaker 3: the experience more and more. And I think that that,
Speaker 3: you know, when someone is doing that to you for
Speaker 3: information that you need to understand the world around you,
Speaker 3: I think that that is criminal. When someone is doing
Speaker 3: that to you for sports stuff. I just think it's rude. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I just think it's like a dick move basically.
Speaker 1: Well, I also think big picture that everything I mean,
Speaker 1: this is this is going to sound profoundly unprofound, but
Speaker 1: like everything is tech, yes, like sports is. It's impossible
Speaker 1: to talk about everything we've basically talked about so far
Speaker 1: has been filled through the lens of tech in ways
Speaker 1: that it's different now that it used to be, in
Speaker 1: ways that these characters are people that we now know
Speaker 1: in a dimensionality that didn't previously exist. Because you know,
Speaker 1: Jordan Hudson posted an Instagram thing of a philosophy textbook
Speaker 1: that was autographed by Bill Belichick the day that they met,
Speaker 1: which was turns out nineteen years old. I'm not important,
Speaker 1: look again, a little bit important. Actually you know my disclosures, Yes,
Speaker 1: you know my disclosures.
Speaker 3: Sometimes when you're looking at Jordan Hudson's Instagram account, it's
Speaker 3: just for work, it's.
Speaker 1: Just because I'm a journalist. But look, my point being
Speaker 1: that it's when it comes to like media, the future
Speaker 1: of media, it's just impossible to disentangle every conversation I
Speaker 1: ever have from the fact that we are working in
Speaker 1: some direct or stochastic way for tech companies.
Speaker 2: You even mentioned the sun good of the algorithm.
Speaker 1: It's just impossible to not think about standard of success
Speaker 1: through the lens of what a tech company has engineered. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so it's it's yeah, it's omnipress. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But the challenge with this too, this is for Defector,
Speaker 3: which is more of a it's a print product, ye,
Speaker 3: you know, like it's a website that people subscribe to
Speaker 3: and read, and we have a podcast and we do
Speaker 3: videos every now and then, but most of what we
Speaker 3: do is writing that. To Publo's point about the tech industry,
Speaker 3: this has been like the challenge for us. I think,
Speaker 3: like we've got a steady, loyal subscriber base.
Speaker 1: We're good.
Speaker 3: It's a good business. How you direct people to your
Speaker 3: posts is not just I mean, it's the challenge that
Speaker 3: we're talking about the most, but any place that is print,
Speaker 3: as these sort of the tech mediated spaces through which
Speaker 3: people used to discover this as they either dry up
Speaker 3: or actively turned against their users.
Speaker 1: That idea of like I guess discoverability is I say
Speaker 1: that word all the time. Yeah, I hate myself everything.
Speaker 1: I mean, it feels bad because it's like it's a
Speaker 1: fake ugly one feels like impact.
Speaker 2: But yes, it does feel it has that, but it
Speaker 2: kind of goes back to the thing I'm saying about
Speaker 2: the money side. It's like, I don't know this show
Speaker 2: is quite successful in pomp because iHeartRadio put it on
Speaker 2: the fucking rate. Yea, the actual show, but they put
Speaker 2: a bunch of advertising behind it, which is awesome. I'm glad,
Speaker 2: really glad they did it, But it's like a big pomp.
Speaker 2: What a surprise A show has trouble finding new listeners
Speaker 2: when they have no discovery and just.
Speaker 1: We are we every look the obvious sort of statements
Speaker 1: of fact. It is harder to find anything now because
Speaker 1: all of us are fragmented, silo not consuming the same things,
Speaker 1: have personalized feeds. Again explained by the tech industry post
Speaker 1: lines that standards absolutely and so true and and some
Speaker 1: platforms are now like disincentivizing hyperlinks to places I mean
Speaker 1: literally like this is this is why it's so hard
Speaker 1: to get discovered. And so if the standard for just
Speaker 1: success becomes do you know that this exists? The game
Speaker 1: becomes I mean again, to return to another sort of
Speaker 1: like axiom, it becomes an attention game because that counts
Speaker 1: as something in a meaningful way, and so to have,
Speaker 1: in Defector's case, a subscription driven site and by the way,
Speaker 1: everything that wants to be a subscription yep. So kudos
Speaker 1: to we were early kudos to journalism to start us
Speaker 1: to start a.
Speaker 2: Premium feed on on you please subscribe any money, like,
Speaker 2: so it costs me thousands a year to do that's nice.
Speaker 2: What are you gonna put on the premium Iriday news?
Speaker 1: You said, dudes, nudes? I take artistic news.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to get all right, the mic magnifying
Speaker 2: glass tool. Anyway, it's Friday news and WS. It's why
Speaker 2: I can't say the word pawn either, a pawn because
Speaker 2: you're watching porn stars.
Speaker 5: Huh.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, the show with Rick. Oh yeah, best
Speaker 2: I can do. I'm sorry. Uh, it's just even doing
Speaker 2: that felt dirty. But it was kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this cost me thousands of dollars a year.
Speaker 1: Like I'm contemplating the same thing. What are we going
Speaker 1: to put behind our premium sort of.
Speaker 2: Value wall And it's just the only advantage I think
Speaker 2: I really have is that I can write so much
Speaker 2: so fast, and I'm pretty good at the writing, but
Speaker 2: I can just fucking today.
Speaker 1: It was like, your like, average newsletter is my monthly
Speaker 1: output in.
Speaker 2: Terms of word count, but I don't post it at
Speaker 2: full fifty five pm on a Friday.
Speaker 3: That's that's a failure on your part. It's as editorial
Speaker 3: best practice.
Speaker 2: That's that's what everyone loves and what they signed up for.
Speaker 2: But it's it's fucked. But I also think it may
Speaker 2: end up being something good because people are being way
Speaker 2: more direct with what they actually want. I also think
Speaker 2: this is something where legacy media really fucks up, because okay,
Speaker 2: you've got the Daily. Actually I want to tell a
Speaker 2: really fucked up story. So I heart Media Awards right,
Speaker 2: which I did not win. To Kevin Ruce's very unfair.
Speaker 2: When they did an announcement of the different someone was
Speaker 2: in a category, it was they were saying, okay, we've
Speaker 2: got this podcast and The Daily with Michael Barbara, and
Speaker 2: is like and now I went outside and then there
Speaker 2: was a politician there and I thought, does he do politics?
Speaker 2: And someone goes, we love you, Michael. I want that
Speaker 2: person found. I want that person in jail. No, who's
Speaker 2: the Michael Barbara super fan like like the Japanese idols,
Speaker 2: but for me, Michael Barb.
Speaker 3: I think if you did a live recording of The Daily,
Speaker 3: you would have to do it at like the forum
Speaker 3: at Madison's.
Speaker 2: That's so sad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough, man. This is a real hard thing
Speaker 1: to get your head around.
Speaker 2: But this is like, but this is the thing with
Speaker 2: these kids. It's a Buddhakana.
Speaker 1: He's gonna do a live episode.
Speaker 2: Opening up the fucking pit about Daily about.
Speaker 1: How the subway is too scary. Now, that's gonna be
Speaker 1: the episode that they're gonna perform.
Speaker 2: And that's when I'm here and with the wheelbarrows, that's
Speaker 2: when I'm just fucking spinning. And the legacy media people
Speaker 2: are pissing it away because they have the discovery discoverability part.
Speaker 2: Don already The New York Times could do so much
Speaker 2: interesting shit, but they're so afraid of this vague objectivity thing.
Speaker 2: I know, probably you have to do your like disclosures
Speaker 2: and shit, but they're just like, nah, instead of doing
Speaker 2: the disclosures, well just too a really boring and hitty job.
Speaker 2: What if it was just really dull? And so they
Speaker 2: already have the hard part done and they choose not
Speaker 2: to do anything extra because they're like, oh, well, people
Speaker 2: want this. Have you fucking tried? Have you tried even once?
Speaker 3: I'll say this with sports too, that this is an
Speaker 3: advantage that we have in this space over a place
Speaker 3: like The Times. I mean, The Times has got to
Speaker 3: report on things that are not fun, like so a
Speaker 3: little bit of whimsy, And anytime The Times attempts wimsy,
Speaker 3: there's this sort of like dog walking on its hind
Speaker 3: legs thing where you're like, we shouldn't be doing that.
Speaker 1: Like that you don't experience, but also you're like impressed.
Speaker 1: You're like, well, I didn't know you could do that,
Speaker 1: like please stop. Like the the.
Speaker 3: Thing with sports that does sort of like move you
Speaker 3: in a direction where like you could do more of
Speaker 3: that type of stuff, like you don't need to talk
Speaker 3: about sports in any particular way. The challenge for you know,
Speaker 3: I think for sports talk radio, which is something that
Speaker 3: I can't imagine an audience that overlaps less in the
Speaker 3: audience of this podcast than the people that listen to Wfan.
Speaker 3: But there are like there's guys whose job it is
Speaker 3: to just go sit in a studio for five hours
Speaker 3: every day and like every day like this is a
Speaker 3: weekly thing, and just somebody calls in and they're like,
Speaker 3: I don't think the island you should do that, and
Speaker 3: then the guys like wrong, and that goes on for
Speaker 3: an extended period of time. That is like it's a
Speaker 3: grim way of doing it, but it also is like
Speaker 3: it's not. There's very little in that space where you
Speaker 3: see people like sort of trying to do something different. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there are other ways of doing it. How it all sort.
Speaker 1: Of defaulted to this like sourpuss play fighting shit is
Speaker 1: a mystery to me other than the fact that it's like,
Speaker 1: if you had to sit and do something into a
Speaker 1: microphone for five hours a day, you'd probably come out
Speaker 1: of it pretty crusty too.
Speaker 2: So I actually the reason that I like doing the
Speaker 2: talking with the micro front thing is actually Penn State.
Speaker 2: I was on the Lion FM. If you are a
Speaker 2: Lion FM listener who heard me on college radio, email me.
Speaker 1: You doing talk or play music both okay, And I
Speaker 1: was co hosting with Joe Paterno. He did the weekly
Speaker 1: call in show.
Speaker 2: I didn't know who he was. I just thought he
Speaker 2: lived there.
Speaker 1: Elderly Italian man from the community.
Speaker 2: No, I did crazy shit. I had like a band
Speaker 2: on this go called Epileptic Pete was epileptic. He had
Speaker 2: his own eight string bass and they played like video
Speaker 2: game music. People fucking loved it. You just have some
Speaker 2: fun with it. But talk radio is extremely interesting. It's
Speaker 2: extremely when it's done well. It's I hope that this
Speaker 2: is kind of the format I'm going for here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the idea of Vegas. I know.
Speaker 2: Yeahs fun.
Speaker 1: I'd never really done that before, and people.
Speaker 2: Because talk radio is actually magical when done right. But
Speaker 2: done right is having a host that sounds like they're
Speaker 2: just talking but has thoughts about everything and they've been
Speaker 2: thinking about it to ask questions in some way. Pablo,
Speaker 2: you do this excellently. And it's like it pisses me
Speaker 2: off because it's like they don't want to try anything
Speaker 2: other than the exact standard. But I think the answer
Speaker 2: is it's the fucking algorithm. It's that they want to
Speaker 2: normalize and fit into what they think will go viral.
Speaker 3: Baby, which it generally is stuff that makes you mad, right,
Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like that's the idea of like
Speaker 3: that kind.
Speaker 2: Of stuff that's already big. It's that or you already
Speaker 2: work for a big newspaper, it's already a big brand
Speaker 2: other than the top of the iTunes podcast I don't
Speaker 2: know what's going with everyone is called like the Smile
Speaker 2: Hour with Dr Janine Benin, and it's like each episode
Speaker 2: is sixty minutes long and it's like how to smile more.
Speaker 2: I've brought smile exper Jesus to fat and he will
Speaker 2: tell us all about smiling. And they have like ten million,
Speaker 2: like five star reviews like this podcast change and you
Speaker 2: listen to them and it sounds like it sounds like
Speaker 2: what I imagine they'd listened to in the sound Goden
Speaker 2: video of Black Hole Sun.
Speaker 3: It's what's coming out of the radio and the ladies
Speaker 3: about to chop the fish.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think my overarching theory of the future of
Speaker 1: media and everything is that we're all only fans now,
Speaker 1: which is to say that nudes yep, which is to
Speaker 1: say that like, there's a bunch of stuff that's wildly
Speaker 1: popular that's just not my kink.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, I can also access the hyper specific thing that
Speaker 1: is mine, or create it and monetize it. But it's
Speaker 1: that thing of like in an era in which scale
Speaker 1: of the level of the New York Times or any
Speaker 1: incumbent publication is now impossible to recreate. For various reasons,
Speaker 1: including by the way, like to get back to Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan or Bill Simmons, like the first mover advantage of
Speaker 1: like being one of the first podcasts cannot be replicated anymore.
Speaker 1: There's just too much competition. Uh, and short of having
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get the genealogy right, short of having
Speaker 1: someone who's husband's sister dated Taylor Swift or something. No,
Speaker 1: I'm just like there are certain ways to like speed
Speaker 1: run growth, Taylor Swift, adjacent Rogan and Joe Rogan, cross
Speaker 1: pollination being another. In general, Yeah, we're aspiring to smaller arenas,
Speaker 1: but we are also aspiring for the people in those
Speaker 1: arenas to give us money. Yes, and that only fans
Speaker 1: economy of like, hey, if I show you some ankle,
Speaker 1: will you pay me for my increasingly bold takes or reportage?
Speaker 1: Or I can't stress this enough Bernie Sanders impressions. Yes,
Speaker 1: it turns out they will. Yeah, I mean that's the
Speaker 1: the thing that and I try to.
Speaker 3: Like sort of count my blessings with this with the
Speaker 3: factor because like it is, it's a good business, right,
Speaker 3: Like we're not we're growing, and yet like I think
Speaker 3: that the challenge withere that you know, we're going to
Speaker 3: turn five in September as a website, and that like
Speaker 3: more or less by website standards, is like middle age.
Speaker 3: And I don't think anybody like we all love it,
Speaker 3: we all love working with each other, like it's not
Speaker 3: going to change. And yet there's a part of it
Speaker 3: where like we don't all want to just like get
Speaker 3: old and die with our readership either, you know that,
Speaker 3: Like we want to be able to do new stuff
Speaker 3: and we want to be able to hire more people
Speaker 3: and change sort of the perspective of the site over time,
Speaker 3: and all of that costs money. I think, just because
Speaker 3: we want to feel like we're growing and not repeating ourselves.
Speaker 2: Why do you want to grow?
Speaker 1: So? I like, I like the look it democracy dies
Speaker 1: with us, yes, right, that's but that I feel like
Speaker 1: is the cultural moment that we're in. Not to get
Speaker 1: too depressing about it, but you can see this with
Speaker 1: like this is the apex of Trump, like he wants
Speaker 1: all of America buried with him like a fucking pharaoh.
Speaker 1: This is not a culture that is built to last
Speaker 1: beyond his like last breath, because what happens after that
Speaker 1: is none of his business.
Speaker 2: He doesn't care but I actually think it's grimmer than that.
Speaker 2: I think it's one step further and it's everywhere. It's
Speaker 2: the rock on me. It's the growth of the cost thing.
Speaker 2: It's people don't know. I know why they want to
Speaker 2: fucking grow. They just want to grow. Everything in our
Speaker 2: society tells us to grow. What do you want to do?
Speaker 2: I want to be a CEO. I want to I
Speaker 2: want the biggest thing ever. It's none about the product,
Speaker 2: It's about the posiness.
Speaker 3: This is where I put the the emphasis and like
Speaker 3: the difference for what like Defector does not want to
Speaker 3: become Fox, but like we don't want like to televise
Speaker 3: a bowl game.
Speaker 2: We need a llure of growth still and this is
Speaker 2: not grossly.
Speaker 3: Is just to like because we want to have like
Speaker 3: new people and do new ship. The challenge with it too, though,
Speaker 3: is that like the ways in which you can make
Speaker 3: money there And we've had new revenue streams and we're
Speaker 3: making more money. We have ads for people that aren't
Speaker 3: signed in, like they see that now we've got the
Speaker 3: podcasts those have ads, and we sell those.
Speaker 1: Cell phones, those gold plated oh my god s.
Speaker 3: Which are very those are great and we're looking forward
Speaker 3: to making those right here in the United States.
Speaker 1: We're gonna make them.
Speaker 2: Cell phone Oh yeah, there is one of those. So smartness.
Speaker 2: One of the biggest comedy podcasts in the world, Listeners,
Speaker 2: has made a MV and O so a cell phone
Speaker 2: network that lives on top of T mobile. What is
Speaker 2: V and L I forget what it stands for. It
Speaker 2: basically means you can have.
Speaker 1: A suba things mobile. Yeah, you can run your yes
Speaker 1: a network.
Speaker 3: Ryan Reynold's gonna lead to the collapse of the telecommunications industry?
Speaker 1: Can that possibly be?
Speaker 2: Thank you Daniel our producer Mobile Virtual Network Operator. Oh
Speaker 2: I knew that, Yes, Daniel, thank you. It's but it's
Speaker 2: that really There's a great Slate piece on it as well.
Speaker 2: It was just really echoed how fucking sad it was
Speaker 2: because these guys are like super rich already and super popular,
Speaker 2: but they needed its cell phone.
Speaker 3: Growing for for the sake of just being like, there's
Speaker 3: more money out there to he made is I think
Speaker 3: this is an area where like everybody at Defector wants
Speaker 3: to fucking blog. That's our job, that is what we want.
Speaker 2: And that's why I fucking pay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that like.
Speaker 3: And it's why I feel happy in this work in
Speaker 3: a way that I haven't felt before. I worked at
Speaker 3: all different types of sites in the past, with all
Speaker 3: different types of funders. I don't know what vice was.
Speaker 3: I guess that's a Ponzi scheme. Or for places that
Speaker 3: were owned by private equity that wasn't great. I worked
Speaker 3: for places that were owned as part of some sort
Speaker 3: of like venture back to tempt you know.
Speaker 1: At Vox.
Speaker 3: Basically whatever it was that Vox was trying to do,
Speaker 3: I was briefly a part of that. In all of
Speaker 3: those instances, everybody that I worked with just wanted to
Speaker 3: do our work, and yet you were subject to the
Speaker 3: I mean not even just like the whims kind of
Speaker 3: like cheapens it. I mean it was whatever it was
Speaker 3: that they wanted to do was what you were going
Speaker 3: to wind up, you know, downstream that would arrive as
Speaker 3: an avalanche when they rolled the snowball from the top
Speaker 3: of the mountain where they were. But the thing with
Speaker 3: all of that, I never felt safe in any of
Speaker 3: those jobs, including the ones where you know, I I
Speaker 3: organized one workplace advice. I worked at a very strong
Speaker 3: union workplace at Deadspin. In all of those instances, the
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously it's much much better to organize your
Speaker 3: workplace than not, and I advocated anybody that wants to
Speaker 3: do it and should try to do it. But at
Speaker 3: some point the people that you're working for don't want
Speaker 3: what you want, they don't care about what you do,
Speaker 3: and they don't read it, and they don't read it.
Speaker 3: That is and which is extremely important that I think that,
Speaker 3: like in any of those there's this wish and I
Speaker 3: remember this. I was talking to Megan Greenwell, who is
Speaker 3: my editor in chief at Deadspin, has a new book
Speaker 3: about private equity called Bad Company that is very good
Speaker 3: and I recommend it's.
Speaker 2: Just going to come on the show at some point. Goods.
Speaker 3: But we were talking about the experience of trying to
Speaker 3: convince the private equity concern that had bought was Gizmoto
Speaker 3: Media now it is Geomedia and basically unrecognizable.
Speaker 1: Spanfeller Jim Spanfelder, bad.
Speaker 2: Guy on the question.
Speaker 3: But he great had a hair though I hate to
Speaker 3: say it, but it's like it's amazing. Yep, it's got
Speaker 3: a quiff. Yeah, yes, anyway, he looks great. He's been
Speaker 3: getting by and his looks for years though. But we
Speaker 3: were trying to like go to them with the information
Speaker 3: that we had, which is like we're making more money
Speaker 3: than we're spending. People read this, These people comment on everything.
Speaker 3: These blogs get passed around. It's this many, you know,
Speaker 3: millions of unique readers for stuff. They just didn't give
Speaker 3: a shit. It wasn't a business they wanted to be in.
Speaker 3: And the difference with Defector and I hope that this
Speaker 3: is the case for you all at metal Arc too,
Speaker 3: because it is like as similar as something that is
Speaker 3: that much bigger and more popular can be that there
Speaker 3: is like you're doing the work that you want to
Speaker 3: do and you're doing it without somebody's hand in your
Speaker 3: pocket or trying to fucking ratitude you around in editorial wiz,
Speaker 3: and that is when you remove that interference from the equation,
Speaker 3: it feels as fun as it actually is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so to get back to the misery
Speaker 1: of Mike Jordan and every tech executive and blogs that
Speaker 1: aren't run in the way that I think Roth is describing,
Speaker 1: I think that's all the time at work, Like the
Speaker 1: point of getting the money is to do the job
Speaker 1: that you want to do, and it is not the
Speaker 1: other way around. It is not to contort and develop
Speaker 1: some sort of content dysmorphia such that you've convinced that
Speaker 1: you're sucking good, that oh, this is what beauty is. Now,
Speaker 1: it's like, no, trust your own. We got into this
Speaker 1: because we have a sense of taste around what we
Speaker 1: want to do and what's good and what's bad. The
Speaker 1: more that we can actually earnestly believe and act on
Speaker 1: that is the whole reason to try and to try
Speaker 1: and engage with the market in whatever way we're allowed to.
Speaker 2: I just what pisses me off is I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2: that if you just did everything with discussing, it would
Speaker 2: be insanely profitable because no one's fucking trying. So just
Speaker 2: if you just did it at the broadsheet types, I'm
Speaker 2: sure that there are people who are desperate to have
Speaker 2: Michael bob Ura or like tell them that the subway.
Speaker 1: Is many millions of people no accounting for tastes one.
Speaker 2: If instead of that it was someone entertaining, do you
Speaker 2: think that they would get scared or do you think
Speaker 2: they'd be like, Oh, I think that.
Speaker 3: There's I think that a lot of that stuff could
Speaker 3: be better or it could be different. I think the
Speaker 3: more important to me is the idea that like, you
Speaker 3: should be able to pick more widely what experiences, yes,
Speaker 3: and if that, you know, the Times isn't going to
Speaker 3: offer you. They could, you know, but The Times isn't
Speaker 3: going to offer you like, here's a version of the
Speaker 3: Daily where the guy doesn't sound medicated like or you know,
Speaker 3: some of these things that are just a different energy.
Speaker 3: Maybe try this out see if you like it that
Speaker 3: like it doesn't. It shouldn't be just one platform offering
Speaker 3: all of this stuff. But I do think that there's
Speaker 3: enough ways to enjoy things that like, you know, and
Speaker 3: the difference with sports, I mean, there's like ways to
Speaker 3: be a fan. Maybe you like to shout about legacy,
Speaker 3: or maybe you are somebody that likes to grind tape whatever.
Speaker 3: You're all working off the same text. Everybody fundamentally understands
Speaker 3: what they're talking about. There's just a lot of different
Speaker 3: ways to talk about it. It should be a healthier
Speaker 3: ecosystem that it is for that reason.
Speaker 2: So this is dating me a bit, But there's a
Speaker 2: crazy thing. They already tried this with the tech media
Speaker 2: and it worked really well. There used to be like
Speaker 2: seven different tech columnists. You kind of used to have
Speaker 2: like Dwight Silverman over at the Houston Chronicle, I think,
Speaker 2: or Dallas Morning News. Forgive me, Dwight. You had like
Speaker 2: hiwath Bray over at the Globe, you had Eric Benderoff
Speaker 2: over at the Tribune. You had all of these, Like
Speaker 2: David Pogue, one of the most well known tech reporters,
Speaker 2: cut of Steve and every week, and he would sometimes
Speaker 2: just be like, yeah, I tried in u E reader.
Speaker 2: It sucked. Yeah, it's my first interaction with him actually,
Speaker 2: and it was like people didn't read David Poe. He
Speaker 2: was kind of like your weird uncle and then had
Speaker 2: some stuff that happened which made you really potentially not
Speaker 2: like him. But nevertheless, there was a level of entertainment
Speaker 2: that came from these personal voices talking about something that
Speaker 2: was very personal to people that worked in the New
Speaker 2: York fucking time in major broadsheets. I just think that
Speaker 2: they've got safer, but I also wonder if that's not
Speaker 2: me just being kind or maybe they just fucking lazy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is a this is an in curious as well.
Speaker 3: Another ed point that has been instructive to me. This
Speaker 3: kind of like the row economy idea, and I've sort
Speaker 3: of I mean, it's hard to not spiral when you
Speaker 3: think about this, But like, what are you gaining by Like,
Speaker 3: you are getting some small savings by eliminating the tech
Speaker 3: columnists from Houston Chronicle from your ledger. You're not paying
Speaker 3: a guy ninety thousand dollars a year or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: These guys used to get paid shit tons of money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that which there is that.
Speaker 2: No, but they used to get paid shit tons of
Speaker 2: money and they were on there for years.
Speaker 3: Yes, usually they were adding any sort of value to me.
Speaker 3: This is the bit that I don't get. Is like
Speaker 3: when you drain a company and kill it and you
Speaker 3: get some money from it. The private equity model of
Speaker 3: basically like piling a bunch of debt onto something. You
Speaker 3: take from this company what is valuable, You leave them
Speaker 3: with the debt.
Speaker 1: In a few years they go away, So.
Speaker 3: You have all this money now that might otherwise have
Speaker 3: gone into that company. We can understand that that's bad
Speaker 3: and that it's unfair to.
Speaker 1: A lot of people.
Speaker 3: Also, what do you do with that money? This is
Speaker 3: the bit that I've always sort of wondered about.
Speaker 1: Like, now it's Jim's is it? You?
Speaker 3: Just like you book nothing fucking chainsmokers to play the weekend.
Speaker 2: I must be clear, the answer is nothing. So is
Speaker 2: that it sits.
Speaker 1: Theres some like transparency into the.
Speaker 2: Scene of super wealthy. It's nothing, It's absolutely fucking nothing,
Speaker 2: so they sits on it.
Speaker 1: So, by the way, this is where again the metaphor
Speaker 1: sort of becomes the reality.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So sports is currently grappling with the influx of private equity.
Speaker 1: The leagues are now passing rules to allow shares of
Speaker 1: teams to be bought by private equity firms, and part
Speaker 1: of the the the looming sort of storm cloud here
Speaker 1: is the idea that actually, as with content, as with
Speaker 1: grocery stores, as with any industry, there's a conflict between
Speaker 1: what that thing is meant to do and it's actual
Speaker 1: standard of success and growth profit. Right. So, the whole
Speaker 1: idea of like the part of sports that is seemingly
Speaker 1: elemental is here are goal is to win. Yeah, everybody's
Speaker 1: trying to win. If when that breaks.
Speaker 2: That winning isn't always profitable.
Speaker 1: Right, So well, and that breakage between winning and profit,
Speaker 1: that's where you are inviting a corruption that has been
Speaker 1: visited upon every other thing in American life that we've already.
Speaker 3: Out yeah, and this is I mean true as a fan,
Speaker 3: but I think that anybody that participates in the culture
Speaker 3: in any way, like there's you don't have to know
Speaker 3: what the Pittsburgh Pirates specifically are like to understand that, like,
Speaker 3: this is a team that is owned by a billionaire,
Speaker 3: that is part of the system that is.
Speaker 2: Created and to explain for the listeners who don't listen to.
Speaker 1: Spoil Pittsburgh Pirates are a baseball.
Speaker 2: And also but specifically, the fact that they can be
Speaker 2: a bad team and make a shit ton of money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, how so, and probably welcome to jump in when
Speaker 3: I get anything wrong. A couple of things built a
Speaker 3: great ballpark with some public money. It is a great
Speaker 3: place to go and hang out and drink beers. Even
Speaker 3: if the team is bad, which the team reliably has
Speaker 3: been for more than a decade. The owner has a
Speaker 3: lot of money, enough money to buy a baseball team,
Speaker 3: which you need. This is another area where private equity
Speaker 3: and then I think eventually sovereign wealth is.
Speaker 1: Going to be is also being legislated in buy shares good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that's like all international sport is all that.
Speaker 1: It just hasn't really happened in the United States, but
Speaker 1: it's coming.
Speaker 3: I mean a team like the Cowboys are the Giants
Speaker 3: their valuation based on what the number is. It's like
Speaker 3: no person could buy it. It's too many billions of
Speaker 3: dollars like whatever, like Elon or Jeff Bezos could buy it,
Speaker 3: but they're not going to.
Speaker 2: Because they must to buy the Pirates.
Speaker 3: This is I considered calling him out on that, like
Speaker 3: being like you coward by the A's like, prove it,
Speaker 3: prove how smart you are.
Speaker 1: E was like, I'm a fan of the Eagles and.
Speaker 3: The Steelers, and I was just like a classic, Like
Speaker 3: it's like somehow like you took a Hillary Clinton line
Speaker 3: and you made it soundly.
Speaker 2: They called me the bus of tech anyway.
Speaker 3: So here's how the Pirates make it work. Extremely it
Speaker 3: is not expensive to run a major league baseball team
Speaker 3: if you don't pay anybody, but you can papers get
Speaker 3: there is no salary floor. So the product that you
Speaker 3: put out there basically needs to be at least to
Speaker 3: be minimally competitive, like you can't have people like coming
Speaker 3: to your house and burning it down. But minimally competitive
Speaker 3: for the Pirates means losing one hundred out of one
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty two games basically every year. The other
Speaker 3: way that you make money off of it, though, is
Speaker 3: like there's TV deals that money.
Speaker 1: Is getting paid.
Speaker 3: There's like you know, parking, there's concessions, There's a million
Speaker 3: different ways to make a little bit of money at
Speaker 3: a time. And then the big thing that makes it
Speaker 3: work is that because this structure that baseball has a
Speaker 3: revenue sharing system, so that basically this is money coming
Speaker 3: from the biggest It is socialism for rich.
Speaker 1: Guys, exclusively for rich guys, because it is.
Speaker 3: It is only within that system. So a team like
Speaker 3: the Yankees that makes all this money and plays in
Speaker 3: a big market has this huge TV deal that the
Speaker 3: Pirates could never get us Pittsburgh is so much smaller
Speaker 3: than New York. They pay money into a system that
Speaker 3: it is then reallocated to the Pirates. The idea being
Speaker 3: that this would create some sort of parody because that
Speaker 3: money is supposed to be used on either major league
Speaker 3: payroll or player development, or there's ways that you can
Speaker 3: use it too that are more responsible than others, like
Speaker 3: using it to pay a big league ball player is good.
Speaker 3: Using it to develop a player development program that teaches
Speaker 3: a raw high school kid that you drafted how to
Speaker 3: throw a pitch that he doesn't know how to throw
Speaker 3: that is also extremely cost effective and works.
Speaker 1: Good teams do both. The Dodgers do both. You don't
Speaker 1: have to do neither.
Speaker 2: You don't have to do anything, And yes you don't,
Speaker 2: because you can just sit there and the money comes in.
Speaker 1: Right, And I think about it also not merely because
Speaker 1: I think there's yes, there's a philosophical approach that is
Speaker 1: overarching here. There's also just like the edge cases of
Speaker 1: like you have a choice. Yeah, you can resign the
Speaker 1: player that will make your fans not merely happy, but
Speaker 1: feel on some level fulfilled as part of the allegedly
Speaker 1: civic trust here right right, you got a star player
Speaker 1: that's about to ask for more money, and everybody wants
Speaker 1: to keep them, and in fact it makes sense for
Speaker 1: you to keep them because your goal here is to
Speaker 1: win a title. Instead, what you will do is let
Speaker 1: him go because he is now too rich for your blood.
Speaker 2: And you don't need business.
Speaker 1: You don't need him to make the margins exactly. Yes,
Speaker 1: that in fact you could still make without them. That's
Speaker 1: exactly the point. The margin thing is to me, like
Speaker 1: it's and this is the sort of short term thinking
Speaker 1: that you see.
Speaker 2: Attack a lot, which is why I brought it up.
Speaker 3: Now, if you think of the business that you have
Speaker 3: as something that you're gonna own for the rest of
Speaker 3: your life and then you're gonna leave to your kids,
Speaker 3: now that's a little bit perverse. I don't think you
Speaker 3: should necessarily be able to do that, But if you're
Speaker 3: thinking of the business that way, the free agent that
Speaker 3: you resign is essential to the survival of your business
Speaker 3: because it shows people that are fans now that you
Speaker 3: care about them and you care about the team in
Speaker 3: the future. And when those people bring their kids to
Speaker 3: the games, they're gonna be watching that player at the
Speaker 3: end of his career. They're gonna So that idea of
Speaker 3: like any of this stuff being built to last in
Speaker 3: any meaningful way, I think is gone.
Speaker 2: And I think that and it's everywhere. The reason I
Speaker 2: wanted you to go through that is I think listeners
Speaker 2: really understand the basics of like how you have tech
Speaker 2: companies that will do as little as possible to keep
Speaker 2: the service running to make the most amount of money.
Speaker 2: I think it's important for people to know this is everywhere.
Speaker 2: The rot economy is everywhere. It's insane. How endemic it
Speaker 2: is the baseball though, you could just run a shit
Speaker 2: team forever.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Well look at Google. Not to make it the whole
Speaker 2: thing about tech, but it's like, it is very fucking
Speaker 2: depressing seeing how these people work. But I think that
Speaker 2: one thing will work in tech that doesn't work as
Speaker 2: often in sports but does a bit is attacking the owners.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Because Dick Mondfort from the Rockies, who I email with,
Speaker 2: he he has stopped responding to me.
Speaker 1: Oh really, I think it was people email with dick
Speaker 1: Man for like, if you email him, he'll email you back. Yeah.
Speaker 2: He didn't email me back about JoJo's bizarre adventure, which
Speaker 2: I think was what broke Hi.
Speaker 1: Maybe a bridge too far. Okay, well he might not
Speaker 1: be ready the.
Speaker 2: Delightful show, but you can't really humiliate someone like that.
Speaker 2: But the pressure on onners has changed things in the past,
Speaker 2: like they don't want to be despised by an entire town.
Speaker 2: I don't think enough people know who Sundapaeshio Salonment is,
Speaker 2: and I think the more people who learn and mock
Speaker 2: them because they are so rich, they don't have anything
Speaker 2: other than the names, and unlike sports teams, they don't
Speaker 2: have anything cool.
Speaker 1: So I think one difference with sports than tech is,
Speaker 1: in fact the broad cultural popularity inherited over generations, such
Speaker 1: that you are invested in this team in a way
Speaker 1: that you could never really be invested in the same
Speaker 1: way when it comes to even the device you use
Speaker 1: all of the time.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I've talked to owners about this, NBA owners who
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, my day job as multi billionaire is
Speaker 1: like to obsess over the price of like polypropylene or
Speaker 1: some other you know, material that I monetize. None, none
Speaker 1: of that is as resonant. Is as much of a
Speaker 1: pain point in my life as the guy on the
Speaker 1: street who is actively booing me when he sees me.
Speaker 2: But imagine if they fucking like them, yeah, like a
Speaker 2: beloved owner, Like if the product was really good. People
Speaker 2: used to fucking love Google.
Speaker 3: So the Mets have a great example of this, and
Speaker 3: that they are owned by what you can only call
Speaker 3: a prolific financial criminal, Steve Cohen. Like it's just a
Speaker 3: guy that was banned by the SEC from trading because
Speaker 3: of all the insider trading that he Oh my god, yeah,
Speaker 3: I know, and guy kind of friends, I know, right,
Speaker 3: they're mad at him, they're jealous.
Speaker 1: I would love I would love FRANCESSA on this topic, gahly,
Speaker 1: who is that going over his art collection? Meal, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of Modigliani's, you know, and I don't like him,
Speaker 1: you know too skinny. Uh but the we Lovegliani jokes here?
Speaker 2: Also who is that?
Speaker 1: He is a sculptor? Okay, and they are very skinny,
Speaker 1: but the uh Brakouzi guy but uh so.
Speaker 3: Cohen though, like bought the Mets as the team that
Speaker 3: he was obsessed with as a fan as a kid,
Speaker 3: and basically this is what he's gonna do with the
Speaker 3: rest of his life. He went and he took a
Speaker 3: team that was owned by a fail family.
Speaker 1: Not just fail sends.
Speaker 3: There's a whole multi generational thing, and did the stuff
Speaker 3: that I was talking about in terms of like basically
Speaker 3: investing in the little things that make an organization work better.
Speaker 3: In this case, it's people that help your pitchers pitch better,
Speaker 3: coaches that actually help in an individual way, and then
Speaker 3: also executives, executives that like understand that these are people
Speaker 3: and that they need to be sort of like treated
Speaker 3: as such. This is like the story such as it's
Speaker 3: told about how the Mets managed to outbid the Yankees
Speaker 3: for wan Soto. Part of it was that like the
Speaker 3: Yankees were dicks to him, they were dicks to his family.
Speaker 2: And Wansto is an extremely good player.
Speaker 1: You have not been you know, he's been a little
Speaker 1: bit of a disaployment. But he was paid the biggest
Speaker 1: contract in the history of sports.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so.
Speaker 3: It's like you have to pay the money, but then
Speaker 3: also if you want to win that person over the
Speaker 3: generational talent that you give that amount of money. You
Speaker 3: and the Mets case, it was basically like they have
Speaker 3: a really nice family room for the kids with the
Speaker 3: players at the stadium.
Speaker 1: Which is not something that he did ownership.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so Steve Cohen, who is a guy that
Speaker 3: is like the definition of a class enemy of mine.
Speaker 3: Everything that I want this country to be. He is
Speaker 3: in the fucking way of it being that. And yet
Speaker 3: he does own my.
Speaker 1: Favorite baseball team, and he has done a pretty good
Speaker 1: job hiring pitching coaches. And at some point you like.
Speaker 3: This is all true. You know, it's all true, it's real.
Speaker 3: You can soften your opinion on the guy for that reason.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And Steve Cohen authentically is also a guy who
Speaker 1: like listens to sports talk radio. Yeah, and he is
Speaker 1: not a fake fan, is a real fan as.
Speaker 3: Well, and not even in like always the most flattering ways,
Speaker 3: like he sometimes will get on Twitter and like recommend
Speaker 3: some like lower tier Mets prospect guy and it's like
Speaker 3: talk to your own fucking prospect guys, dude, Like they
Speaker 3: definitely know more than this guy does.
Speaker 2: So I hate to wrap it up that. I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna say, Steve Cohen, if you're listening, come on better
Speaker 2: off line, let's talk about the Matt.
Speaker 1: Can I say one more thing about Steve Cohen?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 3: So, this is why I think he is game and
Speaker 3: why I think he will be on on this. Do
Speaker 3: you know about Steve Cohen? This is more for public
Speaker 3: because I know do you know about his guy Fiertti fixation?
Speaker 3: Who is that guy Fierti Diner's drives?
Speaker 2: Sorry, I've just never heard it said like that.
Speaker 1: That's how he says, oh, guy Fieri. I'll say it
Speaker 1: the way that it's television.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's yes, I think that's fair for Europeans. Five
Speaker 2: thousand calorie males, Yes, and sauce. He looks like smash mouth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a crazy he looks like everybody from smash
Speaker 1: Mouth made into one smashed into one. It is. In
Speaker 1: factly no one has resembled the term smash mouth more
Speaker 1: than Guy. But so Diners, drivings, and dives really is
Speaker 1: good though, yeah, never eaten a good guy anyway, But
Speaker 1: so the show is him driving around the country going
Speaker 1: to someplace eating the hot dog and be like, that's
Speaker 1: that's crazy, brother, that's a crazy hot dog. Steve Cohen,
Speaker 1: super fan of the show, appears in a couple of
Speaker 1: episodes as a diner and kind of like a weird
Speaker 1: I saw one just like, yeah, there's one in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles of him just eating the Luganiga sausage and he's
Speaker 1: not like a handsome man. He's just like a guy.
Speaker 3: But he's at some place. He doesn't have any lines.
Speaker 3: But then he did apparently pay Guy Fieri one hundred
Speaker 3: thousand dollars to hang out with him for a day
Speaker 3: and go to all of his favorite restaurants, like the
Speaker 3: hot dog places.
Speaker 1: In Connecticut, And that's exactly see to me, that is
Speaker 1: actually like, that's an inkling of that person might do
Speaker 1: a good job bending a baseball team. There's a follow
Speaker 1: up episode that maybe I need to do on my
Speaker 1: show where I find out who's actually good at being rich?
Speaker 4: Yeah, what I would please have me on it sounds amazing.
Speaker 4: That actually sounds like it incredible Always guys that are
Speaker 4: good at being owners. Honestly, it's just not being unhappy
Speaker 4: about it, right, And a through line that you established
Speaker 4: you woudn't.
Speaker 1: Tell jim Irsay, you wouldn't tell anyone to be more
Speaker 1: like jim Irsay rip. And yet like jim Irsay, spent
Speaker 1: the last years of his life with like a touring
Speaker 1: band of notable blues musicians, traveling venues across the country
Speaker 1: and doing the worst versions of Neil Young's songs you've
Speaker 1: ever heard, and he.
Speaker 2: Would sing it rocks.
Speaker 1: It's great. I have noticed. I wish more regret to
Speaker 1: confirm it rocks. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So we wrap up here, and I will say another
Speaker 2: thing about all of this is the too oneful minium
Speaker 2: here with actually Danealds was like we all fucking love
Speaker 2: our jobs and were truly, like deeply into them. My
Speaker 2: talk to Daniel about random fucking production stuff is it
Speaker 2: joy to do? And I think that that is actually
Speaker 2: the real solution to a lot of these problems is
Speaker 2: give people who actually give a fuck money and let
Speaker 2: them do cool shit. David, where can people find you?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 3: I mean, now the pressure's on because we already know
Speaker 3: that Ed is very critical of my promos. Defector dot
Speaker 3: com is the website. It is a prescription site, but
Speaker 3: you can read a few articles for free and decide
Speaker 3: if you like it. The podcast they do there is
Speaker 3: the Distraction. The podcasts they do about Hallmark movies is
Speaker 3: It's Christmas Down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you like.
Speaker 3: Pablo and Ed, you can hear them on the Distraction.
Speaker 3: Neither one of these guys has been on the Hallmark
Speaker 3: podcast yet. But it's a long it's a long process.
Speaker 3: It's far, yes, indeed, and then I don't know the
Speaker 3: blue sky I guess David.
Speaker 1: J Rothblo Pablo Tory finds out as the show. It
Speaker 1: is on YouTube and it's a podcast, and I have
Speaker 1: a substack. It's at www dot Pablo dot show. And
Speaker 1: I aspire to uh talk about some Hallmark movies with
Speaker 1: a guy who's only killed one of two turtles that he's.
Speaker 2: So far you know, God killed that. But and I'm
Speaker 2: at ZiT Tron. You can find me on a podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 2: God killed that.
Speaker 1: My turtle.
Speaker 2: It's like, well godfriended me. Anyway, I'm at Zitron. You've
Speaker 2: been listening to the podcast Better Offline. We talk about
Speaker 2: technology or some such business. Wonderful producer of course, Daniel
Speaker 2: Goodman here in the beautiful New York City, Nevada. Please
Speaker 2: please subscribe to my newsletters. Well where's your head? What's
Speaker 2: great is this is gonna end. You're gonna hit exactly
Speaker 2: the same ship again, and you're gonna email me and
Speaker 2: say re record it.
Speaker 6: No, don't do it. Thank you for listening to Better Offline.
Speaker 2: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song
Speaker 2: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music
Speaker 2: and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T
Speaker 2: T O S O W s ki dot com. You
Speaker 2: can email me at easy at better offline dot com
Speaker 2: or visit better offline dot com to find more podcast
Speaker 2: links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend
Speaker 2: you go to chat dot Where's youreaed dot at to
Speaker 2: visit the discord, and go to our slash.
Speaker 6: Better Offline to check out our reddit.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 5: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For
Speaker 5: more from cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us.
Speaker 5: Out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 5: get your podcasts. The whole Spanish