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Speaker 1: Michael Knowles is an Internet sensation, but if you know

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Speaker 1: of his acting background, we're going to talk about that

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Speaker 1: and how narratives and culture shape history and his new

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Speaker 1: documentary on the Wartime Pope. It's all on this Arroyo Grande.

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Speaker 1: Come on, I'm Raymond Arroyo. Welcome to Arroyo Grande. Go

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Speaker 1: subscribe to the show now and turn those notifications on.

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Speaker 1: I want to keep you a breast of what's coming

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Speaker 1: and don't want you to miss anything.

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Speaker 2: And if you'd like.

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Speaker 1: To support the show and our work, please visit Raymond

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Speaker 1: Arroyo dot com. Okay, Michael Knowles has become a streaming

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Speaker 1: icon for many. His commentary on The Michael Knowles Show

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Speaker 1: has drawn legions of followers. But where did he come

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Speaker 1: from and where does he think this culture is now?

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Speaker 1: And why has he made it his task to retell

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Speaker 1: the history of the Pope of the Second World War

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Speaker 1: Pious the Twelfth.

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Speaker 2: Joining me now is Michael Knowles. Michael, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being here.

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Speaker 1: You have a series on Pious the Twelfth that you're

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Speaker 1: recently released on Daily Wire, and after immersing yourself in

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Speaker 1: that time in history, I want you to catch us

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Speaker 1: up to the present age. Do you have any reflections

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Speaker 1: on how that time reflects on the time we occupy now?

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Speaker 2: Do you see similarities?

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Speaker 3: Well, of course, you know, the only two historical events

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Speaker 3: that anyone is able to compare our politics to is

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Speaker 3: the Fall of Rome or the Second World War. I

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Speaker 3: think it's because those are the only historical events that

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Speaker 3: anyone knows anything about it, And frankly, most people don't

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Speaker 3: know much about those either. But yes, of course there

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Speaker 3: is and you know, we're at a period of great

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Speaker 3: cultural decay and confusion, political extremism, political violence in the streets,

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Speaker 3: questions about the solidity of the political order, changing world order,

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Speaker 3: rising powers, falling powers. So yes, of course there are

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Speaker 3: analogs and a period of great cultural and religious ferment.

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Speaker 3: So some happy news that we've seen is that the

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Speaker 3: decades long decline in Christian identity in the United States

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Speaker 3: seems to have leveled off. It perhaps is going in

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Speaker 3: the other direction. You know, the data are a little

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Speaker 3: bit ambiguous. You are seeing a number of conversions and baptisms,

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Speaker 3: especially among young people. You're seeing a return to church,

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Speaker 3: a big spike in Bible sales, spurred in part because

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Speaker 3: of the assassination of Charlie Kirk are seeing, you are

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Speaker 3: seeing signs of religious exploration, and so then the question is,

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Speaker 3: all right, well, what are we going to find when

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Speaker 3: we start exploring? And I guess this does pertain to

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Speaker 3: the Pope Pious documentary on Daily War Plus. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot of misinformation out there and a lot of propaganda,

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Speaker 3: and so it can be hard for people who are

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Speaker 3: primed for religion, who recognize that we have a need

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Speaker 3: for God, the new Atheism was nonsense, who are spurred

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Speaker 3: towards the truth. Sometimes it's a little hard to separate

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Speaker 3: fact from fiction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to get into that in a moment.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get into the entire what I call

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Speaker 1: the black legend of Pius the twelfth. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: man was calumnized considering the great work he did, And

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Speaker 1: we can get into that. But what do you make

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Speaker 1: There's another parallel that, frankly I find troubling. What do

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Speaker 1: you make of the rising anti Semitism chich That's what

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Speaker 1: I'll call it, that.

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Speaker 2: Seems to have entered the mainstream now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what started as a disagreement over Israel's foreign

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Speaker 1: policy has now really turned into this rabbit hatred your

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Speaker 1: sense of what we're seeing.

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Speaker 2: And this goes across politics.

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Speaker 1: You know, at one time, Michael, this was sort of

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Speaker 1: confined to the far left. Now you're seeing it on

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Speaker 1: the right as well.

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Speaker 2: You are.

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Speaker 3: The left really mainstreamed it in many ways, and it

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Speaker 3: really damaged them in the twenty twenty four election because

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Speaker 3: their supporters were wearing kefias, you know, chanting about the

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Speaker 3: Israeli state, and it complicated their elections. You've seen it

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Speaker 3: crop up a little bit on the fringes of the right,

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Speaker 3: and I think part of that is in response to

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Speaker 3: the gds of war and various war propaganda. I think

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Speaker 3: you're also seeing that because it's so taboo breaking, and

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Speaker 3: I think that there are some people in media and

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Speaker 3: on social media in particular who benefit from breaking as

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Speaker 3: many taboos as possible. Be they on race, be they

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Speaker 3: on religion. When it comes to anti Semitism, it's a

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Speaker 3: little bit of both, and it attracts a lot of attention.

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Speaker 3: And just like a petulant little child, you know, they'll

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Speaker 3: take any attention that they can get, and that it's

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Speaker 3: in itself helps to mainstream them. So I think Christopher Ruffo,

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Speaker 3: who's an excellent scholar, think tank scholar. He wrote a

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Speaker 3: good piece in City Journal on this, in which he

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Speaker 3: suggested that some the anti Semitism, not on the left

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Speaker 3: but on the right is really a kind of meta

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Speaker 3: political movement by streamers and podcasters to try to get attention,

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Speaker 3: and it's it's actually somewhat divorced from actual nuts and

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Speaker 3: bolts politics. But it's troubling nevertheless, because it's One can

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Speaker 3: certainly criticize the Israeli state, and many people do, but

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Speaker 3: this kind of racial or tribal hatred is really really nasty.

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Speaker 3: It poisons a lot. It really damaged the Democrats, So

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Speaker 3: forget about morality for a second. Even just from a

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Speaker 3: practical electoral standpoint, it's noxious and we shouldn't have anything

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Speaker 3: to do with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, well, again, this is the danger of the Internet

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Speaker 1: because the clickbait and the constant need for attention and

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Speaker 1: to top the guy next to you. As you said,

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Speaker 1: the taboo destruction really ends up being the passport to

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Speaker 1: clicks and to new audiences. So they're willing to go

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Speaker 1: there because there's nothing else to lose.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's right. You know, people need harder

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Speaker 3: and harder hits. So you see this in I don't

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Speaker 3: know violence on the Internet, And it used to be

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Speaker 3: that we would restrain the broadcasting of violence, but now

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Speaker 3: we've mainstreamed it. And so I was speaking to someone

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Speaker 3: the other day, a friend of mine, at a cigar lounge,

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Speaker 3: and he said, you know, it's the craziest thing. I've

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Speaker 3: seen multiple people get murdered in high definition on Twitter

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Speaker 3: this week. I'm getting desensitized to this. You hear about this,

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Speaker 3: especially when it comes to pornography, where the pornography becomes

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Speaker 3: ever more extreme because people get desensitized to it. And so,

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Speaker 3: you know, the kind of pornography that is prevalent today

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Speaker 3: is not your grandpa's playboy not to that either. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's true when it comes to political rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: In fact, a friend of mine made the observation that

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Speaker 3: all of political media may have reached its logical extreme

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Speaker 3: a couple of years ago when Kanye showed up on

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Speaker 3: the Alex Jones Show and he said, I love Hitler

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Speaker 3: because there's no further taboo in our modern culture that

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Speaker 3: you can break. You know, there's no more dopamine hit

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Speaker 3: that you're going to receive. It's just as extreme as

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Speaker 3: it possibly gets so it serves the purposes of individual broadcasters.

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Speaker 3: It does not serve the good of the political community.

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Speaker 3: And so I hope that responsible people, you know, don't

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Speaker 3: give it any quarter.

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Speaker 1: Well, and as the as the creators of South Park

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Speaker 1: said the other day, politics has become pop culture. So

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Speaker 1: when this stuff enters the political realm, it poisons the

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Speaker 1: entire culture.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I'm most concerned about.

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Speaker 1: Just from my vantaged point, I want to explore Michael,

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Speaker 1: how your career got here. And we've spoken before, but

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Speaker 1: I want to get into some of this. I'll revisit

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Speaker 1: some of what we talked about as much more I

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Speaker 1: want to get into As a kid, you were drawn

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Speaker 1: to the theater, to acting, of all things.

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Speaker 2: What was it that I was there? One performance? Was

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Speaker 2: there one sight? Am?

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Speaker 1: I can remember seeing You Brenner on the stage and

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Speaker 1: Rex Harrison as a kid and thinking this could be fun,

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Speaker 1: you know it.

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Speaker 3: I was drawn to the theater and to politics for

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Speaker 3: that matter, before I was really even conscious. I had

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Speaker 3: always wanted to be in show business and politics as

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Speaker 3: long as I can remember. The first song that I

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Speaker 3: ever learned, my grandpa taught it to me when I

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Speaker 3: was two, was it's a grand old flag, very patriotic

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Speaker 3: song written by Georg Jim Cohen, who was the King

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Speaker 3: of Broadway. And I lived in New York, so I

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Speaker 3: would see plays and musicals and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh.

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Speaker 3: I tried them out as a kid, and I was

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Speaker 3: a lot better at acting than I was at playing football,

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Speaker 3: So you know, some of it was a natural aptitude

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Speaker 3: sort of thing. But it's it's really not a surprise

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Speaker 3: that people who are in politics very often have some

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Speaker 3: kind of theater or media or broadcast background, because they

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Speaker 3: use a lot of the same skills. You have to

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Speaker 3: be able to speak intelligibly, you have to be able

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Speaker 3: to connect with people, and at the best version of it,

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Speaker 3: you have to be concerned with the truth, and you

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Speaker 3: have to be you know, interested in people. Right at

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Speaker 3: the worst version of it, you have to be a

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Speaker 3: liar and extremely egotistical. But you know, hopefully you do

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Speaker 3: the better version of it. You know, these are very

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Speaker 3: helpful skills, and especially actually connecting this to our previous conversation.

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Speaker 3: In an age in which people have the attention span

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Speaker 3: of a fruitfly, and every medium of entertainment is no

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Speaker 3: longer two hour movie or even a thirty minute show.

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Speaker 3: It's sixty second reel on their phones in that kind

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Speaker 3: of an age. The training that you get in a theater,

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Speaker 3: which is to memorize monologues, soliloquies, poems, to entertain this

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Speaker 3: in your mind, to sustain a narrative over a long

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Speaker 3: period of time, it's in many ways medicinal. In our culture,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot about the theater that is poisonous and terrible,

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Speaker 3: and there's a reason that actors were lumped in with

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Speaker 3: prostitutes and criminals for most of history. However, in our

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Speaker 3: decayed culture, there's actually something salutary about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you study at the Stella Adler Conservatory when you

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Speaker 1: were a teen or a young teen, and later with

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Speaker 1: a guy named Wynn Handman, who I know is a

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Speaker 1: disciple of Sandy Meisner. Tell me what you learned. Let's

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Speaker 1: start with the from the Stella Adler folks.

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Speaker 2: First.

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Speaker 1: What of that training, if any, do you find yourself

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Speaker 1: using today.

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Speaker 3: Well, I did not have the advantage of studying with

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Speaker 3: the woman herself, I think, but I think someone else

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Speaker 3: on this broadcast did I. However, having he is io,

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Speaker 3: is this somewhere that the producer somewhere, But you know,

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Speaker 3: I came around a little bit later after she was

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Speaker 3: off the stage. However, what I really learned at the

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Speaker 3: Stella Adler school was, you know, some nuts and bolt stuff,

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Speaker 3: the power of stillness on the stage, you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of basic stagecraft had to command an audience, but in

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Speaker 3: a more theoretical way. Stella Adler focused on the power

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Speaker 3: of imagination. And there are other acting teachers, most famously

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Speaker 3: Lee Strasburg, who really wanted to focus on Yes. The

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Speaker 3: Strasburg method, you know, was focusing on sense, memory and

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Speaker 3: your own personal experiences and living that on stage. And

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Speaker 3: what I learned at the Adler school was that that

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Speaker 3: can actually take you out of a scene that you

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Speaker 3: really shouldn't be thinking about those experiences. There is a

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Speaker 3: great line from Stella Adler herself, which I saw on

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Speaker 3: video because she had already died, but she said, unless

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Speaker 3: you are Danish royalty, there is nothing about the emotional

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Speaker 3: experience of being dumped at prom that will teach you

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Speaker 3: to play Hamlet. You have to use your imagination. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's true. That's applicable certainly to the stage,

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Speaker 3: it's applicable in people's personal lives and politically as well.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think a lot of our problems are

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Speaker 3: caused by a failure of imagination.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. Tell me about when and what

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Speaker 2: he taught you.

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Speaker 3: When was magnificent. I studied with Win when he was

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Speaker 3: ninety to He was Sandy Meisner's assistant in the fifties,

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Speaker 3: and I loved him. The guy was a devote of

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Speaker 3: George Bernard Shaw. He was left of Vladimir lenin World

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Speaker 3: War Two, veteran who's truly left as can be. I

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Speaker 3: really really loved the guy.

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Speaker 2: Though.

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Speaker 3: Wonderful teacher. He was one of those rare acting teachers

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Speaker 3: who was nurturing. He could be tough when he wanted

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Speaker 3: to be. But a lot of acting teachers are just

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Speaker 3: brutal and they'll pummel you into the ground. And he

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Speaker 3: was quite nurturing actually, And he too, really had a

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Speaker 3: strong focus on the imagination. Not to tell tales out

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Speaker 3: of school, Well they're both dead. At this point he

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Speaker 3: referred to Les Strasburg. He called him a pervert and

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Speaker 3: a voyeur. You know, he really didn't like that naval

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Speaker 3: gazing school of acting, where it's all about the self.

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Speaker 3: I was wonderful, and you know, lessons that I've learned

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Speaker 3: in his class, you know, continue to influence me today.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would have thought the you know, listening

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Speaker 1: to your broadcast, Stella was such a so fixated on

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Speaker 1: taking down the text before you serving that text. And

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Speaker 1: she was so she thought the actor had to create

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Speaker 1: a logical sequence of events. And I see that in

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Speaker 1: your work.

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Speaker 2: You know, don't.

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Speaker 1: You don't kind of haphazardly jump around. You follow a

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Speaker 1: logical progression in the Ecarius to the next topic.

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Speaker 2: That's very Adler. I mean, that really is.

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Speaker 1: And then the not you know, not worried about your

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Speaker 1: you know, losing your cat at three and carrying that

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Speaker 1: into the show.

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Speaker 2: She hated that stuff too.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm so glad that's a great point because I

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Speaker 3: do endeavor to do that. And I think of a

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Speaker 3: line actually that predates Adler, that Adler took from as

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Speaker 3: she developed her technique, which is in the Stanislavski system,

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Speaker 3: you know, the Moscow Art Theater constantin Stanislavski his famous

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Speaker 3: book and Actor Prepares, in which he observes, look, actors

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Speaker 3: have to have objectives that they're pursuing, they have to

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Speaker 3: have actions that they are completing, and there needs to

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Speaker 3: be a through line of action that gives coherence to

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Speaker 3: the entire story. There was another lesson I learned at Adler.

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Speaker 3: One of the teachers there whose name escapes me, which

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Speaker 3: it seems kind of stupid, is a what is the

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Speaker 3: chief goal of the actor? And you had all these

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Speaker 3: dumb responds to you know, experience emotion, to make you

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Speaker 3: feel this, to do whatever. And he said, no, dummies,

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Speaker 3: the chief goal is to tell the story. You're up

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Speaker 3: there to tell a story. That's not a good point.

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Speaker 2: Very utilitarian. Stella used to say.

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Speaker 1: You know, she'd sit on a throne, Michael, and you

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Speaker 1: know I studied with her, which was like eighty nine

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Speaker 1: to ninety so, you know, eighty nine to ninety one

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Speaker 1: or so. And she would sit on the throne and

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Speaker 1: they'd mic her up, and there were speakers all around

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Speaker 1: the room. So when she would critique you, it was

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Speaker 1: like the voice of God thundering on all sides. You know,

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Speaker 1: you didn't know where it was coming from. And she

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Speaker 1: could be brutal, like you said, very difficult. She could

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Speaker 1: be nurturing too, especially to the men. The women not

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Speaker 1: so much. I remember I had a friend I won't

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Speaker 1: say her name, but she was in NYU Psychiatric Services.

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Speaker 2: Quite a few times Stella would say. You know.

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Speaker 1: She got up to do a scene and Stello turned

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Speaker 1: to her and say, sweetheart, where did you get this outfit?

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Speaker 2: And she said, well, I got it. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's a neglige and I thought it was right for

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Speaker 1: the scene. It's wrong for the scene. It's wrong for life, darling,

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Speaker 1: And she said, no, man, we'll sleep with you twice

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Speaker 1: dead panted, poor girl, broken into tears. But Stella the

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Speaker 1: great thing she taught me, Michael, and I do think

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Speaker 1: this every time I walk into a theater, because they

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Speaker 1: rarely do this. She said, your job as an actor

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Speaker 1: is to stand on the platform and remind people of

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Speaker 1: their own humanity. And I think, what a great line.

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Speaker 1: And that's really our job too, in some ways, it's

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Speaker 1: to remind people of their humanity. Okay, then you go

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Speaker 1: to Yale. This is what I don't understand you. So

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Speaker 1: here you are, you're pursuing acting. You're out, you're doing

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Speaker 1: gigs as a kid. I mean, you were acting from

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Speaker 1: the time you were seven. You go to Yale and

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Speaker 1: you study history and Italian. Now there's a graduate school

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Speaker 1: of drama, but there's nothing for undergrads.

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Speaker 2: Why go there?

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Speaker 3: Well, obviously very practical majors Italian literature and history, So

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Speaker 3: I just I really wanted to get a job. You know. No,

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Speaker 3: Yale has no pre professional majors, so you can't study

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Speaker 3: you know, engineering, or acting or any pre law or

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Speaker 3: anything like that. It's a liberal arts university. And I

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Speaker 3: did involve myself. I was a member of the dramat

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Speaker 3: and all the various acting companies, directed opera, translated plays

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Speaker 3: to I immersed myself in that for no curricular credit whatsoever.

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Speaker 3: But I'm really glad that I had the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: study history and Italian literature in particular. Really, to study

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Speaker 3: Italian literature at university really just means you study Dante,

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Speaker 3: Dante and Petrarch, maybe a couple other people, And I'm

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Speaker 3: really glad. I mean, Dante's my favorite writer ever. Because

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Speaker 3: the purpose of a liberal education, in the classical sense

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Speaker 3: of things, is to make sense of your freedom. The

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Speaker 3: reason you don't study for a job or a trade

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Speaker 3: or something is that you're actually cultivating your ability to

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Speaker 3: make sense of leisure time. And that's really what it's for.

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Speaker 3: So you can think about your culture, so you can

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Speaker 3: think about more abstract things. That's what it's supposed to

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Speaker 3: be in principle. In practice, basically, no university actually achieves

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Speaker 3: that these days, but it can spur certain loves and desires.

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Speaker 3: And then after school then you have to get the

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Speaker 3: job training that you know will actually help you, be

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Speaker 3: it in politics or show business or anything else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and you translate. You mentioned a play that

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Speaker 1: you're translated. You translated a play called The Girl from Andros,

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Speaker 1: if I'm getting that correctly, which is a Machiavelli play,

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Speaker 1: another guy, incidentally, who dabbled in both stage and politics.

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Speaker 2: So that's really as an early omen Michael.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there's a theme going back to when I was

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Speaker 3: about three years old up through the university. And it's

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Speaker 3: even more prophetic though, because the Girl from Andros means

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Speaker 3: the girl from the Island of Men, right and not

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Speaker 3: less boss it's Andros, and I think in some ways

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Speaker 3: that was little hint of the transgender phenomenon that was

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Speaker 3: going to take over in politics shortly thereafter. But in

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Speaker 3: any case, marvelous play. It was an ancient play by Menander,

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Speaker 3: the Greek play right we've lost the original translated by

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Speaker 3: Terrence the Latin play right, translated by Machiavelli and translated

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Speaker 3: by me. We don't have to rank them in order

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Speaker 3: of literary importance. But it's telling that Machiavelli, who really

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Speaker 3: invents modern political science. It's telling that he was obsessed

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Speaker 3: with the play. He wrote other plays, true Mandrago la Cliticia.

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Speaker 3: He recognized, not to be too reductive about it, that

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Speaker 3: sometimes politics really is downstream of culture. You realize that

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Speaker 3: you really can't separate those two things, and I think

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Speaker 3: modern politicians should should acknowledge that as well.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: I want to get to that in a moment and

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Speaker 1: expand on it. But I don't want to miss this.

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Speaker 1: At Yale, you befriend a Spencer Claven. Tell me how

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Speaker 1: that led you to where you sit right now and

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Speaker 1: really this entire show.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I of course would would always deny being friends

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Speaker 3: with so disreputable a characters that Spencer Claven, But yes,

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Speaker 3: he was a pallid mine in school. We lived in

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Speaker 3: the same entry way of the same dormitory. I directed

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Speaker 3: him in opera as a matter of fact. Voice he

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Speaker 3: would he would be singing opera up and down the hallways,

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Speaker 3: and I would open my door, yell, I say, stop

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Speaker 3: that beautiful singing. It's too the voice of an angel.

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Speaker 3: Cut it out. I don't want to hear it. And

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Speaker 3: so anyway, he reaches out to me. I was after graduating.

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Speaker 3: I was working in politics and show business in New York.

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Speaker 3: And he reaches out and he said, Michael, the strange request,

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Speaker 3: could you help my father with some communications? Said, you're

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Speaker 3: the only person I know who's a conservative who also

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Speaker 3: works in show business. I said it was your father.

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Speaker 3: He said, well, my father is a novelist and a

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Speaker 3: screenwriter who also does some political commentary. What's his name,

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Speaker 3: he said, Andrew Claven. I said, oh, you're related to

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Speaker 3: Andrew Claven. I probably should It's not like your name

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Speaker 3: is Smith. You know, it's kind of a weird name.

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Speaker 3: I should have should have put them in. Yes, and

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Speaker 3: so I I did some work for Drew for a

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Speaker 3: little while. Drew and I coincidentally, providentially both moved to

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Speaker 3: LA at the same time, huh, separately, and then they

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Speaker 3: start up this company. Originally it was called Truth Revolt.

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Speaker 3: Then they did a second version, a reboot of it,

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Speaker 3: that was the non profit version. Then they did a

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Speaker 3: for profit version called Daily Wire. The head of Daily

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Speaker 3: Wire Jeremy Boring calls me. He says, Michael, would you

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Speaker 3: like to be you know, employee number five and start

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Speaker 3: the social media department? And I didn't call him back

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Speaker 3: because I said, I didn't move to La to have

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Speaker 3: a real job. No, no actor, no one working in

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Speaker 3: political campaigns wants a real job. And he said, you idiot.

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Speaker 3: You know why won't you let me give you health insurance?

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Speaker 3: You're just like so stupid that you So anyway, we

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Speaker 3: started up. I said, I'll be a fun project for

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Speaker 3: a year before the company goes bankrupt. And here I

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Speaker 3: am a decade later. I still hasn't going bankrupt.

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Speaker 1: You see that amazing? So now I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about something you mentioned a moment ago, and I feel

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Speaker 1: I think we hear this that manners and the practice

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Speaker 1: of a people, the culture art far outweighed politics and

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Speaker 1: whatever the rage of the moment is in importance. And

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Speaker 1: my question is, after doing this show for so many

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Speaker 1: years now now a decade at the Daily Wire, what

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Speaker 1: is more important to the people watching and to you?

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Speaker 1: Politics or the culture? They're very difficult to separate. Early on,

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Speaker 1: Andrew Breitbart popularized this phrase that politics is downstream of

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Speaker 1: culture and there's a great deal of truth to it,

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Speaker 1: But that phrase was abused by do nothing politicians who

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Speaker 1: wanted to be elected, receive the honors of office, and

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Speaker 1: then not have the responsibility to actually do anything. So yes,

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Speaker 1: it's certainly true that movies can shape our understanding of

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Speaker 1: the political order. Likewise, the law is a teacher, and

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Speaker 1: so when you subsidize certain behaviors, you get more of them.

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Speaker 1: When you punish behaviors, you get.

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Speaker 3: Fewer of them. That's a fact of politics, and so

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Speaker 3: politicians have a responsibility too. I think there is a

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Speaker 3: way to synthesize both of them, though, which you just

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Speaker 3: alluded to. We think of politics as the laws, and

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Speaker 3: we think of culture as the movies and the soundtracks.

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Speaker 3: But you pointed out nor it's the customs, it's the comportment,

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Speaker 3: it's the behavior of a people, the manner in which

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Speaker 3: we speak, the language which we use to speak, the

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Speaker 3: way that we treat one another, the way that we

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Speaker 3: gather and work together. That is actually a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a blending of the two. And that's really important

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Speaker 3: because a sure guide to ethics and morality is not

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Speaker 3: going to be some utilitarian calculation that tries to ascertain

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Speaker 3: how certain ends can justify certain means. That way lies

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Speaker 3: evil and madness. Neither is it the listing of five

433
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 3: bullet points on a manifesto and say do this, don't

434
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 3: do this. You can never fully encapsulate the intricacies of

435
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: moral decision making. To get back, we're talking about World

436
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 3: War too. You know, the Nazi comes to the door

437
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 3: and says, are you hiding any Jews or something? How

438
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 3: do you answer that question? It's wrong to lie, but

439
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 3: it's wrong to betray people, and it's wrong to this

440
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 3: and that. How there is a third option, though, a

441
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 3: view that was popularized by or repopularized by Alistair McIntyre,

442
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 3: a Catholic philosopher reviving the thought of Aristotle. Thought it

443
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: was very popular in the Middle Ages, which is virtue ethics.

444
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 3: You know, habits that we cultivate virtues like vices or

445
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: just habits, And the more you do them, the easier

446
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 3: they do, and the harder it is to do the opposite.

447
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 3: And that sort of thing is going to be much

448
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 3: much more important than your zinger on Twitter. It's going

449
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 3: to be much much more important than your kakamami moral calculation.

450
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: How do you comport yourself. You want to tell me

451
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 3: about your political agenda, show me how you treat your

452
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 3: family and your friends and your community. That's going to

453
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 3: tell me a lot more about your political movement than

454
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 3: some stupid essay or tweet.

455
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 2: Wow. I love that. I love that. And the manners.

456
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: I've always thought the manners, the virtue of a people

457
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: is really the shape of that people, and you will

458
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 1: never have stable political parties and a stable society if

459
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: your people are debased. A thriving republic is impossible if

460
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: the people are debased and broken. And so if we

461
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: can somehow restore the virtue, restore the manners, everything else

462
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: and families, everything else, I think will sort of adapt

463
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: and take care of itself. But we worry about the externals,

464
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: which really are the pop culture and politics. That's really

465
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: the externals of what drives the whole thing.

466
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: And I love it. You speak to that often.

467
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 3: No, thank you, Yes, that's it. And you know we

468
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 3: live in such an abstracted, rationalistic, lazy, virtual age that

469
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: we forget that. You really see the consequences in something

470
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 3: like the transgender ideology, which says that our bodies have

471
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 3: nothing to do with who we really are I see

472
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: how they came to that conclusion because we kind of

473
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: behave that way. We text and we tweet, and we

474
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: surf online, and a lot of people work on computers

475
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: all day, and so the body doesn't really matter. The

476
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 3: way that you conduct yourself doesn't really matter. And inasmuch

477
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 3: as it does, the internet encourages all the worst kinds

478
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 3: of behaviors in interpersonal communications. So you have to kind

479
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 3: of put your body back into it. It's not enough.

480
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 3: And this has been an observation going back to classical

481
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: antiquity all the way through Christian moral thought. It's not

482
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: enough to understand virtue intellectually to be able to talk

483
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 3: about virtue, to be able to lecture on it, you

484
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: have to actually do it. And so I love you

485
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 3: see this in our present culture, there are plenty of

486
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: people who realize something was broken. Liberalism was broken. It

487
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 3: encouraged bad ideas, all sorts of wacky behaviors, and that's wrong.

488
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 3: And so they know to say that you should go

489
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 3: to church, and they know just say you should get

490
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: married early, and they know just say you should have

491
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 3: a lot of kids. But then sometimes they don't do it.

492
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: And it's very easy to talk and write and tweet.

493
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 3: It's very and it's actually relatively easy to make children,

494
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 3: by the way, if anyone can feel, I have three

495
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: children myself. It's easy and fun. But you but raising them,

496
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: getting married, you know, going to mass, going to confession.

497
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 3: These are the things that you have to do. They're

498
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 3: going to matter a lot more than the great quote

499
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: that you can recite.

500
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: Well, and I want to tie this in later too,

501
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: because it's a big pet peeve of mine.

502
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: Doctrine.

503
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 1: I have always considered doctrine secondary to practice, because that

504
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: is the doctrine that everyone reads and sees and experiences.

505
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: And we have even churchmen who love to say, oh,

506
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: the doctrine is unchanged, but we're doing it this way now, Well,

507
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: that changes the doctrine entirely because you are. You are

508
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: by your actions showing worship for one thing and disgrace

509
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: or hatred for something else.

510
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 2: But something is.

511
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: Happening in Hollywood that I want to get your reaction to.

512
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: And it's almost a new awareness of the limits of

513
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: politics and perhaps an acknowledgment of the power of art.

514
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: But I'm going to let you be the final ruler here.

515
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: Jennifer Lawrence was asked by the New York Times recently

516
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: to speak out on the Trump administration, and she said this.

517
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 4: As we've learned election after elections, celebrities do not make

518
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 4: a difference whatsoever and who people vote for. And so

519
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 4: then what am I doing. I'm just sharing my opinion

520
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 4: on something that's going to just add fuel to a

521
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 4: fire that's ripping the country apart. I mean, we are

522
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 4: so divided. I don't want to start turning people off

523
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 4: to films into art that could change consciousness or change

524
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 4: the world because they don't like my political opinions.

525
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: Michael, your reaction to infany of Jennifer Lawrence.

526
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: If only she had the brevity and you know, incisiveness

527
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: of Michael Jordan from the nineteen nineties who observed that

528
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 3: Republicans by sneakers too, maybe she would have saved herself

529
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 3: a lot of trouble. She's right, people don't really care.

530
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 3: I think the Trump elections, he wont at least two

531
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: of them, and they show that people have tuned out

532
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 3: a lot of celebrities. The other reason for that is

533
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 3: just as we've had hyper specialization in all kinds of

534
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 3: fields in the university, especially, you know, these kind of

535
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: niche specialists in some random field or in corporate America.

536
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 3: So too, we've had it even in celebrity, which is

537
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: that now we don't have to listen to Jennifer Lawrence's

538
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: ill informed views about politics because we have people influencers

539
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: whose entire job is to be political celebrities. And the

540
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: president is the biggest celebrity on planet Earth. So even there,

541
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: you know, a specialization I think has booted some of

542
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: those holly with celebrities out of their newfound jobs, which

543
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 3: is good. They should go back to the thing that

544
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: they're actually good at, which is playing pretend.

545
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, I welcome this.

546
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: I think it's almost a dawning of consciousness that the

547
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: audience can have its own views and forcing ideas upon

548
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: them could be counterproductive to the whole thing you're there for,

549
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: which is to get the audience to buy into your

550
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: make believe right. I mean, that's really what the actor does,

551
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: and it creates that separation. Let's admit it. There are

552
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: people on both the right or left who they don't

553
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: want to see certain actors because they oppose your political perspective.

554
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: Why add that into the mix.

555
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: I've always hated it, but I'm kind of glad you

556
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: see the lights popping on, And maybe that's just the

557
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: pain of the box office.

558
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: Michael.

559
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: Think about what Philip Seymour Hoffman said he was doing

560
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: some interview. I have no doubt that Philip Schumer Hoffman

561
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: was very liberal politically, but I couldn't confirm it. I

562
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 3: don't know for sure. And you know why, because he

563
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: was once doing an interview they asked his views on anything.

564
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 3: I don't even think it was a particularly controversial political issue. Yeah,

565
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: and he said, I don't want to talk about that.

566
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: The less you know about me, the better. It's true,

567
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: and he was probably the greatest actor of his generation.

568
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, a great response. Okay, I want to talk about faith.

569
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: To bring this full circle. You fall away from your

570
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: faith at thirteen, right after your confirmation.

571
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: What happened and what brought you back?

572
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: Well, I have to correct you, Raymond, I fell away

573
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: just before my confirmation.

574
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: For your confirmation, that makes it a little better.

575
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: Actually, I said to my mother, I don't believe I'm

576
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 3: an atheist. Christopher Hitchins is really cool whatever, and she said, ah,

577
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 3: you're going through a phase. You'll get over it eventually.

578
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: You should force you to do the confirmation.

579
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: It's not that she wouldn't have forced me, but she said,

580
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 3: I recommend you receive your confirmation. You've received your sacraments,

581
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 3: you've done your religious education, you're going through a stupid phase.

582
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: You should be confirmed in the faith. And I trusted her.

583
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: I said, ah, fair enough, okay, whatever. So I did,

584
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 3: and I effectively apostasized. And I thought I was a

585
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 3: very clever, thirteen year old little boy. I was much

586
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: smarter than you know, Saint Athanacious, Saint Augustine, Saint thomasin's

587
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: guys and get to school. The short version of the

588
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 3: story is, I mean a bunch of people who are

589
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 3: letts smarter than me, and most of them are atheists,

590
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: but the very smartest ones were theistic. And a randomly

591
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: or providentially assigned roommate presented me with one of the

592
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: arguments for God, the ontological argument by Saint Anselm of Canterbury,

593
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: which Saint Thomas aquinas kind of he doesn't like the argument.

594
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: He doesn't say it's a wrong argument, he just doesn't

595
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: like it for various reasons. But in any case, it

596
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 3: got me. And you know, this is a very important

597
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: point on evangelism.

598
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: I think.

599
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: What got me about the argument was in part that

600
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: it's a sound argument. Even Bertrand Russell, the great logician

601
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 3: of the twentieth century atheist, he said, the ontological argument

602
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: is sound. It's a fine argument. But what really got

603
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: me is I fell away because of intellectual hubris, and

604
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: I thought that religion was for dummies and atheism was

605
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: for the smart people. What brought me back was maybe

606
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: the substance of the argument, or maybe just the fact

607
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: that I now saw that smart people could be religious.

608
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 3: It was a kind of permission. And not everyone is

609
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: going to be drawn in by that. Some people are

610
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: going to fall away from religion because there I don't know,

611
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: emotionally damaged, or because they suffered a trauma, or because

612
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: that whatever. There are plenty of reasons, and I think

613
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: the way that you have to pull people back in

614
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 3: is to speak to that, to speak to whatever deficit

615
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 3: they're feeling, to lead them to the truth, what is

616
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: ultimately the truth? Ever Rangent ever knew.

617
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me about the impact Father George Rutler had

618
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: on your return to Catholicism.

619
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: Quickly, absolutely inestimable, Because as I'm seriously considering returning to faith,

620
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: I'm twenty three or so twenty three twenty four. I'm

621
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: in new and I'm at a show business event. It

622
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 3: was a political show business event. Actually it was for

623
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: conservatives who were in show business, a group called the

624
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: Friends of Abe And coincidentally, providentially, I'm at a restaurant

625
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: that was owned by my friend's father. They were having

626
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 3: the meeting there, and I see some books on the table,

627
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: perfectly fine polemics by Sean Hannity and Ane Coulter and

628
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: what you Know. And then there was this little weird

629
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 3: book called Coincidentally, and the epigraph was from Alexander Pope,

630
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 3: and it said, all nature is but art unknown to

631
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: the all chance direction, which thou can'st not see. I

632
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 3: look down it says by George Rutler. I look on

633
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 3: the back. First blurb is from William F. Buckley Junior.

634
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: I had just been the William F. Buckley student fellow

635
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 3: at Yale, says save this as a valuable Rutler first edition.

636
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: I open up the book. It's signed. I then look

637
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: in the back and my mind is swimming with the

638
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 3: thought of returning to the faith. I'm I'm almost in

639
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: a daze at this point. I open up what do

640
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 3: you know, the guy who wrote the book is a

641
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: Catholic priest. What do you know? It says he is

642
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 3: the pastor of a church just a few blocks away.

643
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: I said, this is a weird coincident. It's a book

644
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: about coincidences. That's pretty weird.

645
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: There you go. Then I then look at an advertising Michael.

646
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 3: Well, this even slightly weirder thing. I look him up.

647
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 3: He's no longer at that church that I saw. He's

648
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: been moved, and he's been moved to a church called

649
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: Saint Michael's. I said, you know, I think I should

650
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 3: go to that church. And there's a beautiful little stone

651
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 3: design mosaic on when you walk in, and it says

652
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 3: the truth above all things. I went there. His preaching,

653
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: his writing, his friendship, frankly, were of simply inestimable value

654
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: in my return to the faith. And he celebrated the

655
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 3: marriage of my wife and me. So it really, you know,

656
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: that's a wonderful uh. Great, a great man of the church,

657
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 3: great intellect, you know, just couldn't say enough of good

658
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 3: things about him.

659
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, a great an old friend of mine as well.

660
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: When did you first encounter the traditional Latin mass?

661
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: Michael?

662
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: And why do you think that has a power that

663
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: is now drawing so many young people. I mean, we

664
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: both frequent the Latin Mass, and there's no denying the

665
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: young are coming in in huge numbers.

666
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 3: I was first turned on to the traditional Latin Mass

667
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 3: as an adult coming back into faith by our aforementioned friend,

668
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 3: father George Rutler, who did not really celebrate the traditional

669
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: Latin Mass, but there was a lot of Latin and

670
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: a lot of chanting in his liturgy, in the Rutleryan Rite.

671
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 3: And so I said, well, that's kind of odd. It's

672
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 3: not just happy clappy things with you know, felt banners

673
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 3: or whatever. And then it reminded me one time I

674
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 3: was in Rome after the Mode Approprio, I was away

675
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: from the faith. I was during the Pontificate of Benedict,

676
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: and I did see the difference. I walked in during

677
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 3: an Italian Novasorto mass, but I stayed and the high

678
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 3: Latin Mass began. I noticed it immersed you in scripture,

679
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 3: of course, the fact that statistically all of the saints

680
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: for all of history had access to this mass, you know,

681
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: a mass that was substantially formed by the year six

682
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 3: hundred Gregory the Great, and that endured until it was

683
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 3: suppressed in the middle of the twentieth century, and now

684
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 3: it's kind of come back to me. That's a good

685
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 3: recommendation of the Mass, and I, you know, because it's

686
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 3: brought so many, especially young people, back into the faith.

687
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: I certainly hope that some of the restrictions that were

688
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 3: put under it onto it in recent years. I hope

689
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 3: that the Holy Father, Pope Leo will consider lifting them

690
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: and allowing the springtime for the church as I suspect

691
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 3: to occur.

692
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: No, I was going to ask you about that, the

693
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: inexplicable banning and shunning and shaming of people young and

694
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: old who love the old right, love the traditional Latin Mass,

695
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: and they're treated like lepers or worse, treated like pagans.

696
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: You can't even come into the parish anymore. Ye, there's

697
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: a huge disconnect there. At a time when everyone's saying

698
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: we should be synodyl and listen and walk with everybody,

699
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 1: Yet here are your most fervent believers, the people who

700
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: want to be there unlike anybody else, and you basically

701
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: lock the door in their faces.

702
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: Yes, I sure would love a little accompaniment, Yeah, a

703
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 3: little ecumenism maybe for that, But but I totally understand why,

704
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 3: which is that, Well, in the wake of the Second

705
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 3: Vatican Council, the reform came about. Let's not forget, you know,

706
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 3: the the what became the Mass of Paul the sixth

707
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: was not an essential part of the Second Vatican Council.

708
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 3: And frankly, what is often practiced today is the nervous

709
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: sort of miss i is really far afield of.

710
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: What the Council called what was intended.

711
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 3: Yes, and however, there was a feeling among clergy and

712
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 3: some lay people that the Second Vatican Council abrogated tradition.

713
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: Now we don't have to deal with that anymore. We're

714
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: in a new air. It's the Age of Aquarius, and

715
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 3: everything's going to change. And maybe some of them had

716
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 3: good intentions, you know, maybe they thought it was really

717
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 3: going to work. And it didn't, and it didn't fill

718
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 3: up the pews, and it didn't bring a lot of

719
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: Protestants over, which was one of the goals, and it

720
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 3: just didn't. It just didn't achieve the pastoral aims that

721
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 3: many of them set out for. And so what do

722
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: you do when something's not working. Maybe you try something else.

723
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: Maybe you try something that's worked pretty well in the past,

724
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 3: that's a reasonable thing to do. However, it became, it

725
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 3: became a fight over the Council, at least in the

726
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 3: minds of the radicals and the liberals, And it's totally ridiculous.

727
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 3: You don't have to reject the you know, important parts

728
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 3: of the Second Vatican Council in order to point out

729
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 3: that felt banners and you know, like lame guitar songs

730
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: are not the most conducive to sanctity and reverence.

731
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

732
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: Well, priests coming out of a casket dressed as Dracula,

733
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: which I saw from Germany this week, and you know,

734
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: a priest on the skateboard coming down the aisle not

735
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 1: what we need in worship of God.

736
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: I don't know, do you do, fellow kids?

737
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 2: Good evening kids? Okay?

738
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: You have a new series on Daily Wire that kind

739
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 1: of draw us together, your love of history, your faith,

740
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: your flair for the dramatic. It's called The Pope and

741
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: the furor the Secret Vatican Files of World War Two. Now,

742
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: I'm old enough to remember Michael John Cornwell's horrible book

743
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: Hitler's Pope, which really reanimated the black legend of Pious

744
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: the twelfth the wartime Pope as an accomplice to Hitler.

745
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: But that really wasn't the source of this narrative. What

746
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: was and tie that to our entire conversation here.

747
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 3: It was total nonsense. And I remember when it came out,

748
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 3: and I didn't know anything about Pious the twelfth, so

749
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: I stupidly believed it. Now we know better than to

750
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 3: trust popular books and news media and all the rest

751
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 3: of it. Pope Pious the twelfth was the Vatican Secretary

752
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 3: of State during the pontificate of Pious the eleventh, and

753
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 3: he chooses the name Pious to show continuity here. This

754
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 3: is a man deeply involved. He also was papal nuncio

755
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 3: in Germany, so he knew Hitler for what he was

756
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: from the beginning. He was deeply involved in encyclicals such

757
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 3: as mid Brenando Zorga, you know, warning about the rise

758
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 3: of Nazism in Germany. In the vernacular. Hitler wrote to

759
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 3: Francisco Franco said that Pius the twelfth was his personal enemy.

760
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: Pius the twelfth attempt at a long distance exorcism of

761
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 3: Hitler from the Vatican. Hitler certainly wanted to kidnap the

762
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 3: Pope and probably wanted to execute him. There was no

763
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: love lost between these two people knew it. After the war,

764
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 3: Pius the twelfth is honored in Israel. The chief rabbi

765
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 3: of Rome. Israel Zoli converts to Catholicism and in fact

766
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 3: takes the name Eugenio Eugene, the Christian name the twelf. Yes,

767
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 3: this is pretty clear. Everyone knows about this guy's bravery

768
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 3: in the war. And by this guy I mean the

769
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 3: Holy Father, the last significant figure to stand firm in

770
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: Rome as the enemies are all around, saved hundreds of

771
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 3: thousand of jew many hundreds of thousands of Jews in

772
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 3: any case, Fast forward to was it nineteen sixty three

773
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 3: or thereabouts? Yep, the stupid play is written called The Deputy.

774
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 3: It is an interminable play. It's about eight hours long.

775
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 3: If it were to be performed in its entirety, it

776
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 3: never was performed in its entirety. No one would have

777
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 3: stayed for it.

778
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

779
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 3: And the argument of this work of fiction is that

780
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 3: the Pope loved Hitler and collaborated with Hitler. It was

781
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 3: total nonsense. It was promoted by the KGB and it worked.

782
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 3: It worked to develop this narrative, which then is resuscitated

783
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: in the various Pies the twelfth fights, notably the Cornwell

784
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: book Hitler's Pope. Now, part of the reason that this worked,

785
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,439
Speaker 3: I think is because of the context of the Second

786
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 3: Vatican Council that happens in the sixties and all the

787
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 3: fights to follow that. In many ways, the fight over

788
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 3: the legacy Pies the twelfth is not even totally about

789
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: the Scularists or the Germans and the Jews or those

790
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 3: KGB or whatever. In many ways it's an intra Catholic

791
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 3: battle between the traditionalists and the modernists or something. Because

792
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 3: Pious the twelfth was an emblem of Catholic continuity and tradition.

793
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 3: You know, he wore the papal tiara, he had the

794
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: dignity of the seat of Peter, and so I think

795
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 3: there were opportunists who really wanted to abrogate tradition, you know,

796
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: put Benedict to the sixteenth points out, we have to

797
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: have a hermineutic of continuity. If some modern declaration seems

798
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 3: to contradict all of Church history, we can't get rid

799
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 3: of everything the Church is always believed in favor of

800
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: this innovation. We have to read whatever is new in

801
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 3: light of the tradition.

802
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: That's kind of a fascinating take though on this, Michael,

803
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: because look, I've heard so many facets of why why

804
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: did they want to destroy the legacy and the reputation

805
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: of Pious the twelfth. And I've heard the community he

806
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: was a militant anti communist, so it was in the

807
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: interest of the Russians to destroy his legacy. But that

808
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: makes more sense to me that it really is an

809
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: inter Catholic battle over tradition and novelty, and that Pious

810
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: the Twelfth in many ways he embodied that tradition and

811
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: as you said, was the only figure to stand firm

812
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: against Hitler in reality? Why was he so quiet?

813
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 3: Though?

814
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you hear that critique all the time. You

815
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: know there are I know there are audiences I remember

816
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: reading them where he denounces Hitler, but it's in a

817
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: gentle way.

818
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 2: But behind the scenes he's far more active.

819
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 3: And yes, he's working with various diplomats and spies, and

820
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 3: he's saving lots and lots of Jews in Rome, working

821
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 3: very hands on to save them from being rounded up,

822
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 3: but also throughout Europe. I mean, I think the estimate

823
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 3: he is really estimates over eight hundred thousand Jews were

824
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 3: saved by the pope and his actions. So why didn't

825
00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 3: he give a big speech where he said, you know

826
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: that Hitler's a nasty fellow and we hate him, because

827
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: it would have only made things worse. First of all,

828
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 3: you have to remember they've just concluded the Lateran treaty.

829
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 3: The Italian nationalists have formally stolen the papal states, though

830
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: that was a process that began over a century before,

831
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 3: and the pope is politically a little bit weak. Then

832
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 3: you look at what happens to the bishops who did

833
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 3: speak out in a really direct way, the Dutch bishops,

834
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 3: or the clear example of this, It led to the

835
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 3: deportation of thousands of Jews as punishment for the Dutch

836
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 3: bishops speaking out. The pope knew that if he spoke

837
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: at in such a way, the number would be millions,

838
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 3: and so he suffered a kind of a white martyrdom

839
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 3: in order to do the most good to protect Hitler's victims,

840
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 3: certainly to protect the church obviously a top priority for

841
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 3: the pope, and he was willing to become a true

842
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 3: martyr as well. He had a letter in his desk

843
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 3: in which he renounced the papacy if Hitler and the

844
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: goons had actually kidnapped him, that was to be pronounced,

845
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 3: and so they would have had merely a priest on

846
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 3: their hands, maybe a bishop, but they no, actually not

847
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 3: a bishop, because they would have had the Bishop of Rome,

848
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 3: so he pronounced it. They would have had a priest,

849
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 3: they could have done with him as they liked, and

850
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 3: then the curia would have gone and there would have

851
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 3: been a conclave and they would have elected some new

852
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 3: pope in exile. But this is a man who was willing,

853
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 3: really not to think of himself, to put everyone else first.

854
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: Now, I remember interviewing years ago nuns in Roman convents,

855
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: Michael who I remember them telling me one story where

856
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: at night messages came from the pope, handwritten messages from

857
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: pious to twelve that said you were to admit women

858
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: and their children into this convent and then destroy this letter,

859
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: which they did, and this nun said, we didn't want

860
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: anybody here. We were worried for our own lives, but

861
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: we did it under obedience to the pope. And so

862
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: the mothers and their children stayed there. The fathers were

863
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: dressed as Franciscan monks and stayed across the street.

864
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: And they meet at night. It was.

865
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: It's an amazing but to see the you know, these

866
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: women in their nineties at the time, and they told

867
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: me one story where the Nazis are coming and they're

868
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: checking all of the convents and the monasteries and they

869
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: knock on the door and the babies are crying and

870
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: the and the women are frightened. So they put the

871
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: mother and the children. Mothers and children under the stage

872
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: in kind of their auditorium area. The nuns get on

873
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: the stage and start pretending that they're rehearsing a show.

874
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: The Nazis are looking everywhere, they find no kids, no mothers,

875
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: and they leave. You know, this shows there was enormous

876
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: heroism that happened, and none of that would have occurred

877
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: without Pious the twelve.

878
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 3: And when we're talking about the Pope specifically, he personally

879
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 3: housed Jews at Castel Gandolpho, at the papal residence. So

880
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 3: this is obviously directives to the entirety of the church.

881
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 3: Hence that very large number these personally involved in this himself.

882
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: What did you learn from the new documents released by

883
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: the Vatican Archives a few years ago.

884
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: Well, the Vatican Archives have been opened up and so

885
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 3: now we have lots of cables that don't really tell

886
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 3: us anything new. They confirm what we already knew for

887
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 3: people who are willing to look at the truth. So

888
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 3: there are all sorts of spy documents and diplomatic cables

889
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 3: and all the rest of it. You know, some interesting

890
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 3: details there, but the real story has been suppressed far longer.

891
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 3: You know, we've known the fact since the nineteen forties.

892
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 3: And so I hope that the pup in the Fuer

893
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 3: lays it out clearly and gives you good ammunition for

894
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 3: your revisionist friends and relatives who want to further calumniate

895
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 3: a marvelous and virtuous man.

896
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look, you went into such detail in

897
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,280
Speaker 1: this multi part series, and you know, I've been speaking

898
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 1: to researchers and even witnesses who worked in the Vatican

899
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: or were near the Vatican at the time. It's an

900
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: amazing history, but it's so obscured, and it's because of

901
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: and it kind of ties into everything we've been talking about.

902
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: It started with this ridiculous play, you know, the deputy

903
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: that kind of began this black legend that has persisted

904
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: in various forms, whether it's.

905
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 2: The New York Times, or Cornwall.

906
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: I read an article the other day and said, no,

907
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: we need to open up the Vatican Bank records. That

908
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: will tell us how much money the Pope made off

909
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 1: of It's like, when does this ever end? I meant,

910
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: you've got pious warning FDR about the Holocaust and they

911
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: don't want to hear about it.

912
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: That's right, you know. And it's a reminder of the

913
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 3: consequences of very bad theater. You know, maybe maybe it's

914
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: good that we lumped in Thespians with criminals trial of history.

915
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 3: You know, maybe that point.

916
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,439
Speaker 1: Bad theater has its consequences and it never ends.

917
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:48,760
Speaker 2: Well.

918
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: Michael, thank you for being here, and you can watch

919
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 1: the series The Pope and the Furor at Daily Wire.

920
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 2: And I thank you Michael for your time.

921
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: Raymond the Pleasures Online, thank you for having me.

922
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you soon.

923
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: Thank you, and I hope you'll come back to a

924
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 1: royal Grande soon. Why live a dry, constricted life when

925
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: if you fill it with good things that can flow

926
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 1: into a broad, thriving Arroyo Grande.

927
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: I'm raiming Arroyo. Make sure you like this episode.

928
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe and like us.

929
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 2: Thanks for diving in and we'll see you next time. Bye.

930
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: No Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts

931
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: and DP Studios, and is available on the iHeartRadio app

932
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.