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Speaker 1: All media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. On

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Speaker 2: this show, we try to apply political and cultural analysis

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Speaker 2: towards speculative futurity. What can we learn about the future

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Speaker 2: by looking at how our present relates to our past

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Speaker 2: and now? As we approach a whole decade of a

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Speaker 2: resurgent far right gaining cultural prominence, we're entering a moment

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Speaker 2: in time where pop culture and media is starting to

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Speaker 2: catch up to the current political zeitgeist. Our media landscape

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Speaker 2: is inundated with depictions of unreality, political extremism, collapse, and

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Speaker 2: rising civil tensions. Some of these succeed more than others,

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Speaker 2: but most are still deeply neoliberal in their depictions. The

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Speaker 2: Obama produced a Netflix movie from last year, Leave the

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Speaker 2: World Behind, was a speculative look at a collapse orchestrated

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Speaker 2: to jumpstart a second American Civil War. Alex Garland's voyeuristic

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Speaker 2: Civil War movie just released, which sort of gestures at

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Speaker 2: politics with offhand mentions of portlaind maoists and the Antifa massacre.

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Speaker 2: But as a movie it completely fails to understand the

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Speaker 2: moment we currently occupy, and I believe is even more

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Speaker 2: out of touch than the Obama Collapse movie, but we're

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Speaker 2: not talking about that today. For my thoughts on that,

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Speaker 2: you can look at my review on Letterboxed and refer

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Speaker 2: to the reviews I liked for a more robust critique

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Speaker 2: of Garland's deeply troubling depiction of quote unquote neutral war

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Speaker 2: journalism as uncritically virtuous. Instead, this episode will be turning

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Speaker 2: to a depiction of modern day extremism that I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure is better. It's still deeply neoliberal and honestly more

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Speaker 2: overtly copaganda, but one that I still find more interesting

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Speaker 2: and I believe does understand our political moment much better

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Speaker 2: than Alex Garland does, who comes off as less and

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Speaker 2: less intelligent in every single interview he does. Last month,

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Speaker 2: the television show Law and Order did an episode focusing

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Speaker 2: on Robert Rundo's far right fitness groups, the White Supremacist

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Speaker 2: to Active Clubs. To discuss, I am joined by longtime

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Speaker 2: far right researcher Molly Conger.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Molly, Hey, thanks for having me on. And you

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Speaker 3: probably didn't know this about me. I am a secret

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Speaker 3: enjoyer of police procedurals, so I've actually watched a lot

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Speaker 3: of Law and Order.

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Speaker 2: I have never seen a single episode of Law and

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Speaker 2: Order until this week, so I was really inundated. I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I watch a lot of kind of troubling media, though,

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Speaker 2: and media that tries to comment on current political extremism,

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Speaker 2: and often when I talk with my friends about my

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Speaker 2: interest in viewing things like this episode, I get confused

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Speaker 2: or even adversarial reactions, and I do truly understand their hesitations.

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Speaker 2: Pop culture media like this is often very sensational, turning

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Speaker 2: very real pain, trauma and death caused by the far

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Speaker 2: right into this form of kind of mindless entertainment, and

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Speaker 2: often reifying the role of like good government and good

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Speaker 2: cops to maintain order against racist insurgents, even though more

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Speaker 2: and more of their ilk begin to occupy public office

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Speaker 2: and become cops themselves. But politics and culture are hand

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Speaker 2: in hand. Lots of what became the al Right grew

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Speaker 2: out of gamergait, and I think there is a real

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Speaker 2: use in understanding how the political activities of fascists and

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Speaker 2: anti fascists are depicted in mass media. I believe there

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Speaker 2: is some value in knowing what NBC and the writers

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Speaker 2: of Law and Order think an active club is as

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Speaker 2: like a sort of cultural litmus test, and also to

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Speaker 2: see how well people like us are doing in trying

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Speaker 2: to educate about these types of groups. But I totally

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Speaker 2: understand that not everyone wants to suffer through a forty

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Speaker 2: minute Law and Order episode about cops beating the Nazis.

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Speaker 2: So instead I will watch it for you and talk

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Speaker 2: about exactly how they depicted this with Molly here today.

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Speaker 2: So I think the most efficient way for me to

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Speaker 2: do this is to kind of give a recap of

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Speaker 2: the episode, and as I start going through it, we

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Speaker 2: will discuss at certain points. I can't just summarize all

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Speaker 2: of it in like a short paragraph. I mean I could.

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Speaker 2: I just think that would miss out on a lot

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Speaker 2: of stuff. So instead we're gonna go through the episode

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Speaker 2: and comment as things happen. And this episode ends up

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Speaker 2: being about a lot more than just an active club.

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Speaker 2: It's actually pulling from a few other influences that we

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Speaker 2: will talk about probably towards the end.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, that felt sloppy to me.

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Speaker 3: I feel like they try to tackle several specific Like

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Speaker 3: I don't know how familiar are with with the Law

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Speaker 3: and Order franchise, but they call these episodes the ripped

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Speaker 3: from the headlines episodes right where they take a real life,

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Speaker 3: high profile case and write an episode about it. But

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Speaker 3: they tried to combine several elements that I felt didn't

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Speaker 3: blend well, and it deeped them more material to work

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Speaker 3: with than they were able to address, and so it

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Speaker 3: just felt it just felt unresolved to me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I assume lots of these police procedurals are

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Speaker 2: kind of undercooked, as like pieces of art.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the Dick Wolf Exting universe is cheering out

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Speaker 3: so much content that, like, I don't know how they're

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Speaker 3: still doing it. I mean, Olivia Benson has been on

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Speaker 3: television since I was a child.

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Speaker 2: So let's get into the actual episode. The cold open begins.

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Speaker 2: It's night in New York City. A nervous looking white

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Speaker 2: woman enters a subway station, and she's startled by a

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Speaker 2: sleeping homeless man. As the subway approaches, eerie music starts playing.

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Speaker 2: The anxious woman walks onto the subway and a black

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Speaker 2: man cat calls her as a group of other men

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Speaker 2: kind of join in. The woman quickly switches to a

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Speaker 2: more empty subway car, where she then bumps into another

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Speaker 2: black man whose eyes look kind of vacant and is

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Speaker 2: making weird grunting noises, and then the man appears to

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Speaker 2: lunge towards the woman. We cut to crime scene tape

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Speaker 2: stretched across the subway station. Two police detectives to enter

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Speaker 2: the subway car, where a dead body lies on the ground.

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Speaker 2: But it's not the scared white woman. It's the oddly

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Speaker 2: grunting black man who appears to have been strangled to

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Speaker 2: death with no apparent witnesses. He's identified as twenty four

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Speaker 2: year old Ellis Joyner, a stand up comedian who a

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Speaker 2: detective says, quote came from down South love to talk

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Speaker 2: about how much he loved New York. The other detective remarks,

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Speaker 2: great place to live, not such a great place to die.

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Speaker 2: Cut the title screen with music that I assume has

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Speaker 2: not been updated in like thirty years, because the actually

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Speaker 2: it's it sounds so so nineties.

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Speaker 3: They can't change it now. There are thousands of episodes

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Speaker 3: of the show Garrison, It's history.

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Speaker 2: So already with the cold open, we have like ooh,

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Speaker 2: the dangerous subway, scary homeless people, this poor white woman.

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Speaker 2: A lot of stuff's being thrown at.

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Speaker 3: Us, right and obviously playing on the idea that like, oh,

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Speaker 3: the white woman is going to be under that that sheet,

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Speaker 3: like that's going to be her body.

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Speaker 2: Totally, totally. So, as we returned to the episode, a

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Speaker 2: forensic pathologist says the man died after being put in

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Speaker 2: a quote unquote sleeper hold, which cut off oxygen to

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Speaker 2: his brain. His medical records reveal he also had severe

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Speaker 2: asthma and as hyperinflated lungs indicate he was currently suffering

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Speaker 2: an asthma attack when he was killed by the lethal

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Speaker 2: chokeold in the fifty minute window for a time of death,

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Speaker 2: the train passed through six subway stations, four of which

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Speaker 2: all had broken cameras.

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Speaker 3: Which is supposed to remind the viewer that we really

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Speaker 3: need to fund the subway cops.

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Speaker 2: Correct. A lot of this episode is about how subway

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Speaker 2: surveillance is under equipped to deal with crime. And we

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Speaker 2: could probably fix a lot of problems if there was

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Speaker 2: more security cameras in the subway.

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Speaker 4: Or just one hundred cops. What if they put one

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Speaker 4: hundred cops on there.

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Speaker 2: Sure, or more cops and like, to my surprise, the

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Speaker 2: subway in New York City historically has not had security

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Speaker 2: cameras inside the actual train cars, though they are expected

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Speaker 2: to by twenty twenty six. But like the light rail

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Speaker 2: and Portland the kind of like not not subway, but

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Speaker 2: like the public transit train in Atlanta, they all have

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Speaker 2: cameras inside the actual train cars. I was a prose

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Speaker 2: I said that the subway in New York did not.

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Speaker 2: I just never knew that anyway. Back to lawn Order, Ellis,

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Speaker 2: Joyner's credit card identified the station that he got on at,

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Speaker 2: which also had broken cameras, but police pulled streetcam footage

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Speaker 2: from a few blocks away, which shows Joyner getting into

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Speaker 2: a fight with another comedian where Joyner got punched. The

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Speaker 2: other man is recognized as Malcolm Paige, a stand up

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Speaker 2: who quote used to open for Chappelle back in the day.

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Speaker 2: Quote so already setting up something fantastic. The detectives interview

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Speaker 2: Page and show him social media footage of Joiners is

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Speaker 2: set from last night, making fun of Page for being

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Speaker 2: old and irrelevant. Page says that Joiner verbally attacked him

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Speaker 2: because Joiner quote got his panties in a twist unquote

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Speaker 2: over some of Page's jokes. Quote hit too close to

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Speaker 2: home for fancy boy unquote, And when Page says fancy boy,

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Speaker 2: he does this little shaky hand thing, which the detective

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Speaker 2: asks if that's supposed to apply that Joyner is gay,

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Speaker 2: which the older comedian says, yes.

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Speaker 4: I mean I've seen this sort of like limpressed hand movie.

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Speaker 2: Did It was just like a weird like.

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Speaker 4: Shaking like hand like fancy you sort of.

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Speaker 3: Shake your hand side to side when you mean like

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Speaker 3: kind of or maybe exactly exactly hand movie. It was

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Speaker 3: homophobic gestures, right, it was. It was really weird. I

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Speaker 3: found this whole interaction kind of bizarre and unnecessary, like

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Speaker 3: you write in this kind of red herring when you're

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Speaker 3: trying to fill time.

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Speaker 4: But they had plenty, they had plenty of script. They

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Speaker 4: didn't need this.

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Speaker 2: This episode's so focused on different forms of racism, so

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Speaker 2: much adding in this like weird gay subplot doesn't. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't end up going anywhere, and it's just kind of bizarre.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, this basically this older comedian was telling homophobic jokes.

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Speaker 2: Joiner then made fun of him on stage, and this

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Speaker 2: older comedian Page assaulted him outside. Page then left in

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Speaker 2: an uber, and Joyner ran off with his boyfriend, who,

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Speaker 2: according to Paige, weren't getting a long either. So there's

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Speaker 2: some kind of like like a new suspect arises exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: So police look through joiners emails and texts in the

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Speaker 2: cloud quote unquote, and can't find any record of a boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: making detectives surmise that he must have been in the closet,

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Speaker 2: which is a baffling thing to surmise. Cops then contact

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Speaker 2: quote the Traveler app. That's that's Traveler spelled t r

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Speaker 2: a v l R.

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Speaker 4: You have to cut out a vowel or it's not

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Speaker 4: an apple.

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Speaker 2: So legally, not Grinder gives NYPD complete access to Joiner's account.

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Speaker 3: And it's I'm sorry, Like, are gay male sex apps

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Speaker 3: usually like pink and purple. The color scheme is pink

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Speaker 3: and purple.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not my experience, but yeah, I think it's also

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Speaker 2: a referenced to like like travelers, like fellow Travelers right

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Speaker 2: right when it was obviously supposed to be Grinder. But

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Speaker 2: it's just it's just Grinder. It doesn't matter. But cop Legally,

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Speaker 2: not Grinder gives NYPD full access to Joiner's account, which

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Speaker 2: shows he's dating a guy named Michael Zain. And this

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Speaker 2: whole thing is, this whole thing's so wild because if

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Speaker 2: you're dating someone you should not be primarily communicating through Grinder.

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Speaker 4: And he said later they've been dating for six six months.

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Speaker 3: Six months, They've never texted, They're just using Grinder to chat.

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Speaker 2: Whenever you go on Grinder, the goal is to get

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Speaker 2: off of Grinder as soon as possible. Why why would

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Speaker 2: privately texting each other instead out you as gay anymore

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Speaker 2: than having an identifiable Grinder profile.

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Speaker 3: I feel like having Grinder up on your phone and

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Speaker 3: it has a very distinctive like text tone, like that's

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Speaker 3: way more likely to out you dog just text regular exactly.

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Speaker 2: It makes no sense anyway. The Traveler messages between Joiner

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Speaker 2: and Michael Zaane indicate a sort of ongoing fight or argument.

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Speaker 2: Now Zain has a prior conviction for aggravated assault last year.

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Speaker 3: They didn't actually, so I went back and I went

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Speaker 3: back and double check this because I have some beef.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't have a corect.

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Speaker 4: They said he was arrested for assault last year.

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Speaker 2: He was just charged. He wasn't connected at my mistake, yes,

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Speaker 2: but also the episode does not make that very clear.

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Speaker 3: No, because I have a reason, I went back and

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Speaker 3: checked because it makes no sense.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, his boyfriend was charged last year for aggravated

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Speaker 2: assault so the detectives pay him a visit because they

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Speaker 2: think he's like a suspect, right. Zain says that he

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Speaker 2: didn't kill Joyner, he loved him, and that their fight

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Speaker 2: on the night of the murder was about to Joiner's

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Speaker 2: own self hatred and Zayin believing that things would be

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Speaker 2: better if they could just live openly as a couple,

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Speaker 2: but Joyner was concerned that it would threaten his comedy career.

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Speaker 2: Zain maintained nothing ever got physical between each other, and

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Speaker 2: explained that his assault charge was from trying to break

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Speaker 2: up a bar fight, but when the cops arrived, they

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Speaker 2: targeted Zaane because he was black, to which the two

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Speaker 2: NYPD detectives nod solemnly.

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Speaker 4: They're like, yeah, it does sound like something we would do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, other cops are racist, but not us. They're like okay.

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Speaker 2: Zain claims that Joyner wanted time, so he got off

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Speaker 2: the train a few stops before and went home, but

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Speaker 2: mentions that there was a white guy with short brown hair,

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Speaker 2: bright yellow sneakers and a hoodie with some kind of

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Speaker 2: symbol on the back who was looking weirdly at him

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Speaker 2: and Joiner. Security camera footage shows someone matching that description

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Speaker 2: exiting the train car one stop before Joiner's body was found,

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Speaker 2: and one of the detectives recognizes the symbol. We will

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Speaker 2: learn more about this mysterious hoodie, sneaker and symbol after

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Speaker 2: this ad break. So I first, I just want to

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Speaker 2: describe what this symbol is.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: It's this octagon with spiky corners and like two k's

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Speaker 2: facing like like like one facing backwards. Yeah, one one

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Speaker 2: facing forward with one facing backwards, but smushed together, and

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Speaker 2: the shared middle pillar is like an arrow pointing upwards.

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Speaker 4: It looked like nothing to me.

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Speaker 2: They tried to desire something that looked vaguely racist, but

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Speaker 2: it's just not. It just it just looks dumb.

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Speaker 3: It looks like, I don't like a tech company logo

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Speaker 3: or something like. Yeah, it does not evoke anything for me.

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Speaker 2: No, it's it's not good. They're trying to make it

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Speaker 2: scary with like lots of like different like angles, but

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Speaker 2: like it's it's it's not it's not scary anyway. The

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Speaker 2: detectives arrive at an MMA gym in Chelsea called the

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Speaker 2: Kovak Academy. It opened about a year ago and they've

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Speaker 2: been peppering the neighborhood with flyers.

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Speaker 4: Well, that sounds familiar.

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Speaker 2: Extremely accurate. The cops are graded by a jacked staff

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Speaker 2: member with a shaved head, and they asked to speak

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Speaker 2: with the owner, and this skinhead employee says that they

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Speaker 2: just missed them. But there's a picture on the wall

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Speaker 2: of the owner holding a trophy and he's wearing the

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Speaker 2: exact outfit in the subway security footage. The detectives are

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Speaker 2: told that he was getting a cab to the airport. Now,

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Speaker 2: I thought I thought this was going to be like

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Speaker 2: a clas Rundo move right, do some crimes flee the country,

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Speaker 2: But allegedly he was actually flying to Toronto, which actually

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Speaker 2: will kind of get explained later on. Cops are outside

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Speaker 2: to see if they can spot him before he leaves,

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Speaker 2: and they see a man in yellow sneakers and a

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Speaker 2: logo emblazoned hoodie walking towards a cab. They sprint tap

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Speaker 2: him on the shoulder. The MMA guy throws detectives against

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Speaker 2: the car, starts fighting, not realizing their NYPD because he

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Speaker 2: has like earbuds on. Cops pull their guns, then he surrenders.

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Speaker 2: The owner of the gym is named Domino. Domino. It's

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Speaker 2: a weird it's weird name.

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Speaker 4: I think Dominall. It's like and I think it's an

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Speaker 4: Irish name.

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Speaker 2: Dominall. Yeah, dominol Kovak. He has four previous convictions for assault,

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Speaker 2: all against black victims, with two charged as hate crimes.

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Speaker 2: A detective notes that Kovak has a tattoo on his

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Speaker 2: right arm of laced up combat boots with the number

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Speaker 2: eighty eight, which the detective calls a white nationalists symbol.

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Speaker 4: Okay, okay, here, I looked. I looked hard.

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Speaker 3: I looked hard through a lot of photographs of Nazi tattoos,

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Speaker 3: and the boot tattoo is not common and you only

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Speaker 3: see it in skinhead culture.

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Speaker 2: And this guy's not a skinhead. The actual owner of

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Speaker 2: the gym does not appear to be a skinhead. He

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00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 2: has like a big beard. He has like long brown,

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00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,080
Speaker 2: like longish brown, not long, but like medium shaggy brown hair.

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Speaker 2: But but yeah, he has this combat boot eighty eight tattoo.

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Speaker 3: Like that's there are a lot of Nazi tattoos, and

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Speaker 3: that's not the one I would have picked for this character.

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Speaker 2: No, it's obviously like some lawn order writer googled like

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Speaker 2: Nazi tattoo and just picked that.

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Speaker 3: Like, but That's the thing is, if that's what they

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Speaker 3: had done, I don't think they would have picked that because,

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Speaker 3: like I said, I was looking through all of these

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Speaker 3: sort of like lists of different kinds of tattoos, yeah,

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Speaker 3: by different nonprofits. There is one one picture in all

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Speaker 3: of these databases of a tattoo that's even similar to this,

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Speaker 3: where it's a pair of boots with the number eight

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Speaker 3: on each boot. I found one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that that is the one used.

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Speaker 2: I think they did want to like bring in some

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Speaker 2: level of like the idea of dog whistling kind of

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00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,720
Speaker 2: with eighty eight, which will come up later in the episode,

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Speaker 2: but it's it's not well done anyway. Kovac says that

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Speaker 2: he's never seen Ellis Joyner before and that the night

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Speaker 2: of the murder, he was running a late night intensive

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Speaker 2: training program called the Combat Academy based on the Navy

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Speaker 2: Seals training course. So many red flags are going off here.

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Speaker 2: It ended around midnight. Afterwards, Kovec said he walked to

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Speaker 2: his girlfriend's near by apartment. He was never on the subway,

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Speaker 2: but he explains that the gray hoodie and yellow sneakers

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Speaker 2: are part of the Combat Academy uniform that all members wear.

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Speaker 4: It's so important to wear matching outfits with your boys,

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Speaker 4: And in one of the.

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Speaker 2: More accurate moments of the episode, as soon as he's

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00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,359
Speaker 2: in even a little trouble, he gives out all the

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Speaker 2: names of the members in his group.

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Speaker 3: Did not even wait for a subpoena. He was like,

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Speaker 3: would you like their credit card numbers?

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Speaker 2: It did not hesitate. He's like, no, oh, absolutely, I'll

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Speaker 2: I'll give a DNA, so I'll tell you. I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you the names all the guys. It wasn't me, I swear.

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00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 2: So the detectives locate they're recently divorced Brandon Arnaut outside

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00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,399
Speaker 2: of the I like that they added the detail he

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00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,600
Speaker 2: was recently divorced, but this never actually.

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Speaker 4: Caught come up.

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Speaker 3: Does not matter the second. The second they walk up

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Speaker 3: to him on the street, he was like, oh, my

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Speaker 3: wife left me.

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Speaker 4: My wife left me last year.

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Speaker 3: Me so I got really into grappling with the boys

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Speaker 3: because my wife left me.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So they find him outside the elementary school

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Speaker 2: he teaches that and which.

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Speaker 4: Also never comes up again.

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Speaker 2: Nope, and after very very little questioning, very tame questioning,

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Speaker 2: he immediately admits to killing Joyner, saying it was an accident,

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Speaker 2: and that Joyner was attacking a woman on the subway

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Speaker 2: and Brandon here was trying to protect her. At the

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Speaker 2: police station, the police say that they can't find any

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Speaker 2: footage of the woman Brandon is talking about, But the

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00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,879
Speaker 2: defense attorney asks if the cameras were even working at

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Speaker 2: every station, to which the cops roll their eyes if

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00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,239
Speaker 2: like really sartiastical answer. They're like, oh my god, this

362
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,159
Speaker 2: fucking guy asking if the cameras are broken. The cops

363
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,399
Speaker 2: tell Brandon that they found Ellis Joiner's missing cell phone

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00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 2: in his gym locker. They searched his house, they didn't

365
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 2: find anything, but they got his They got a Warren

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00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 2: for his jim locker and found the cell phone and

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00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 2: they alleged that he stole it after he realized that

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00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 2: Joyner recorded a video of the fight that ended up

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Speaker 2: with Joiner being strangled to death.

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Speaker 4: And that's something we call consciousness of guilt.

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Speaker 2: The defense attorney ends the interview immediately as soon as

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Speaker 2: they bring this.

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Speaker 3: Up, like, why wouldn't you tell your lawyer that tell

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Speaker 3: him that before you go in the search.

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00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 2: History, and Brandon's laptop shows him trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: how to unlock the phone to delete the video. Now

377
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 2: this part's a little bit odd. The cops debate even

378
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 2: though quote he admits to killing Joyner, I'm not sure

379
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 2: we have enough evidence to charge unquote, which is not true.

380
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 2: You have so much of it, you have a confession,

381
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 2: you have so much evidence to charge.

382
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 3: This is so bizarre, Like, how often do you have

383
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 3: a recording of a murder happening and then the guy

384
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:09,199
Speaker 3: admitting that.

385
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 2: It admits, Yeah, it's ridiculous. They charge on far far less.

386
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Speaker 3: They have that conversation in the room where they're like, well,

387
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 3: we can charge him or we can let him go.

388
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Speaker 3: He's like, I mean, I understand a conversation about like

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Speaker 3: is this murder too, is this manslaughter? Yeah, but it's

390
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Speaker 3: not a question of whether or not you charge him

391
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Speaker 3: with something. You're charging him with something.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a reason actually why they

394
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 2: had this conversation, which I will get to at the

395
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 2: end of the episode if you remind me. I think

396
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 2: there's a reason why they discussed this option of letting

397
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Speaker 2: him go versus charging him. But at this point we

398
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 2: now switch to the law half of the episode after

399
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 2: we finished the order half. I don't know why these

400
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,639
Speaker 2: are reversed because they do the police part first, then

401
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 2: the court part. But whatever, it should be called order

402
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: and law, which just I guess, I guess just doesn't

403
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 2: sound good. So a front page story in the legally

404
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 2: not New York Post is being passed around the DA's office.

405
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 2: It reads self defense or racist killing hero or zero.

406
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Speaker 4: A recurring story in New York City.

407
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 2: The prosecutor, who's played by Hugh Dancy I'm just gonna

408
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 2: call Hugh Dancy because they don't know his character's name,

409
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: states that half the city believes Brandon's self defense story

410
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: and the other half justic sees a white man killing

411
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 2: an unarmed black man. Quote, that is what happened. A

412
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 2: litmus test for what people want to believe, says the

413
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: main DA.

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00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: I think at this point the writers in that room

415
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 3: are just tired. Oh yeah, so like you can only

416
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,479
Speaker 3: do so much cocaine before it just like stops working.

417
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: The DA's office says that Brandon held Joiner in a

418
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 2: choke hold for so long after he was unconscious that

419
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 2: even if it started as self defense, it escalated to homicide.

420
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 2: The debate between manslaughter and murder, saying the former would

421
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 2: be easier to win with a clear use of excessive force,

422
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: regardless of Brandon's story of trying to help the girl,

423
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 2: but based on the cell phone video, the DA decides

424
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: to pursue a murder case due to a quote depraved

425
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 2: indifference to human life unquote displayed by choking someone for

426
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: full three minutes after falling unconscious.

427
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if you mentioned them. So they found

428
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 4: the phone.

429
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 3: So the victim had been recording the altercation and then

430
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 3: it got knocked out of his hand, and so it

431
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 3: was it was recording audio of the murder, but not video.

432
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 2: I'm going to get to that once we get to

433
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 2: the court scene. Hugh Dancy is nervous about Brandon's literal

434
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: white night story and that he has no history of violence,

435
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 2: but the DA insists on second degree murder, saying, quote,

436
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 2: this is George Floyd all over again in what way?

437
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: And I'm sure as hell not going to end up

438
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: on the wrong side of it unquote, which does not

439
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 2: make the DA sound like a good guy, just makes

440
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: him sound like he doesn't want to have like a

441
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 2: bad press. It comes off as very slimy.

442
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 3: I you know, I said, I watched a lat of

443
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 3: law and order, and so I have seen probably a

444
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: thousand hours of it, but I haven't watched it in

445
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 3: several years, so I don't know if maybe the tone

446
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,959
Speaker 3: has evolved a little bit, But I got the impression that, like,

447
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe this is a guy who's consistently

448
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: worried about getting re elected, right because his job is

449
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 3: an elected position.

450
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, just doesn't want the press. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So

451
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 2: finally we cut to court, the prosecution plays the cell

452
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 2: phone video. Seconds after Joyner starts recording on his phone,

453
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 2: Brandon knocks it out of his hand, landing the camera

454
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 2: side down, Continuing to record only audio of the struggle.

455
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 2: We hear Brandon putting Joyner into a choke hold, Joyner

456
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 2: repeatedly saying he can't breathe before appearing to pass out,

457
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: followed by three minutes of silence up until Brandon releases

458
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: his arm from around Joyner's neck. He picks up the phone,

459
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: sees its recording, and turns it off. As the video

460
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: is playing, the prosecutor and the jury are all shaking

461
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 2: their heads so that we know that they don't agree

462
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: with it. Hugh Dancy questions the medical examiner, who explains

463
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 2: it after Joiner lost consciousness, he could no longer pose

464
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: an a lethal threat to the defendant, who continued to

465
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 2: talk Donor for three more minutes. The defense suggests that

466
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 2: a surge of adrenaline distorted time and awareness of his surroundings,

467
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 2: which in the panic of the moment, made Brandon not

468
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 2: realize Joyner lost consciousness for that long elis Joyner's secret

469
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: boyfriend test Next, he says the defendant was weirdly staring

470
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 2: at Joyner, at himself, and that Brandon moved aggressively to

471
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: step in Zaye's way when he was trying to exit

472
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: the train and said, quote unquote watch yourself in a

473
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: quote unquote racist tone. The defense brings up Zayne's past

474
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 2: to aggravated assault charge to cast doubt on his testimony.

475
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 3: Okay, they can't do that, they can you cannot do that.

476
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 3: There is a very limited set of circumstances in which

477
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 3: you can bring up a witnesses criminal history, and this

478
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: isn't it.

479
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 2: There is a lot of funky law decisions going on

480
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: in this episode.

481
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 3: You can't do that.

482
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: Speaking of funky law decisions, well, actually, speaking of speaking

483
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 2: of this ad break, we are back speaking of troubling

484
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 2: law decisions. The defense calls a surprise female witness, Rebecca Laski,

485
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: something you cannot do.

486
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 4: I looked it up.

487
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: The average time to take a felony to trial in

488
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 3: New York is a year. So from time of death

489
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 3: to this going to trial, best case scenario probably like

490
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 3: a fucking year. They had a year to find this

491
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: woman and she shows up on the last day of

492
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 3: the trial.

493
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 2: It's definitely not the last day because.

494
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 3: If this was you know, this is obviously sort of

495
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 3: mimicking the was his name, Daniel Penny.

496
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what it's always like.

497
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: Making the Daniel Penny caase like this would have been

498
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 3: on the New York Post like every day leading up

499
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 3: to the trial.

500
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 4: This woman would have been located. The murder happened in January.

501
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: The trial starts, I believe in early March, and lasts

502
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: about two weeks according to the timeline of the TV show.

503
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: So that's not how it works anyway. Rebecca Laski, the female,

504
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: the surprise female witness. She detifies that she accidentally bumped

505
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 2: into join her who quote unquote appeared mentally disturbed and

506
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: was making aggressive grunting noises, aggressive grunting noises before lunging

507
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 2: at her. She then claims Joyner reached into his pocket

508
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: and she was scared he had a knife or something,

509
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: so she screamed. She screamed for help, and Brandon Arnau

510
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: saved her. She testified that mister Arnau grabbed Joyner away

511
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: from her and the two men started fighting. Laski calls

512
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: Brandon a hero, and the jury looks on inquisitively. After

513
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 2: the female witnesses quote unquote compelling testimony, the prosecutor talks

514
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: with the DA about offering a manslaughter plea, but the

515
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: DA is steadfast since the video clip of a man

516
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: begging for his life and being choked to death for

517
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: three minutes after falling unconscious has not actually changed. Hugh

518
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 2: Dancy remarks that new context for the video isn't really

519
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: in their favor, to which the DA just replies, just

520
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: because a white woman saw Joyner as a threat doesn't

521
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: make it true like okay, based in New York, DA

522
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: I guess. Back in court, the prosecution asks Rebecca Laski

523
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: if she was actually present when a quote, the defendant

524
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: choked the life out of a joiner unquote. She clarifies

525
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: that the train stopped as the men were still fighting,

526
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: Joyner was reaching into his pocket. She was scared that

527
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 2: he maybe had a knife again.

528
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 4: He's probably reaching for his inhaler and.

529
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: Hailer or his cell phone to record this fight. She

530
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: curiously mentions, though, that after Brandon grabbed Joyner's arm and

531
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: the fight started, Brandon kept yelling at Joyner. He was

532
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: yelling to quote, surrender and that he was bleeding, and

533
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: that he was dirty or fighting dirty. I don't really

534
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 2: remember the exact words. Unquote.

535
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 4: This destroyed me. I almost turned it off.

536
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: Everyone in the courtroom gets a really funny look when

537
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: she meant when she mentions the word dirty. So we

538
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: will get to this in a second. Under questioning last,

539
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: gaymits that she never saw any weapon of any kind,

540
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: let alone a knife, and Hugh Dancy suggests that after

541
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: being attacked by a fellow comedian and having an argument

542
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 2: with his boyfriend, Joyner was probably suffering from an asthma

543
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 2: attack triggered by high stress. He wasn't mentally ill, he

544
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: wasn't acting aggressive or grunting in a threatening manner. He

545
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: was stuck in a subway car having an asthma attack.

546
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: And he addresses Laski saying, quote, you saw a scary

547
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: black man making a noise. Objection sustained. So yeah, but

548
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: they didn't. But that's so they objected there.

549
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 3: But then when he says, like, and isn't it true

550
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 3: that his behavior was consistent with an asthma attack, nobody

551
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 3: objected to that.

552
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 4: She can't offer She can't offer a medical opinion.

553
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 2: Rebecca Laski a ballet answer, not a medical professional. Cannot

554
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 2: offer an opinion on what his medical symptoms can be consistently.

555
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: When she starts getting upset, saying like, oh my god,

556
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: this is all my fault, like this happened because of me.

557
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 3: Like at that point, no prosecutor would have allowed her

558
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: to continue speaking. He would have said, just answer the questions,

559
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 3: just answer the questions. He would not have let her

560
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: get emotional up there, And that's that's poison.

561
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it makes not very good.

562
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 4: Television, thrilling television.

563
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: So after court for the day, the prosecution wonders if

564
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: Brandon allegedly say something about blood and dirt could have

565
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: really been quote the Nazi slogan blood and soil.

566
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 4: No no, no, gear, no no.

567
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: The new battle cry of white nationalist groups unquote.

568
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 4: See here's the thing.

569
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: So this is where the episode goes fully, fully off

570
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: the rails.

571
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: So like when I was watching her testimony, she was like,

572
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 3: he said something about like, you know, he was bleeding

573
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: and like he was dirty. At no point did my

574
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: mind no connect that too. And and I quite literally

575
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: just yesterday was watching videos of guys yelling blood and soil.

576
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 4: This is something that's on my mind.

577
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: It is a ridiculous jump. It's it's not there because yeah,

578
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: he's yelling something about about like bleeding because his lip

579
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: was bleeding. And sure a remark about being dirty could

580
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: be could be construed as as like a racist remark.

581
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: But the jump from bleeding and dirty to blood and

582
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: dirt to blood and soil is fucking baffling.

583
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 4: It's just not even the same words. But not to

584
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 4: Nippick here, not to Nippick.

585
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: I just don't know that blood and soil would have

586
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 3: been the chant he chose as he was doing the choking.

587
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: It's bizarre he would have said a slur. Hugh Dancy

588
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: is also skeptical. None of the interviews with Brandon's family

589
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: or co workers indicated anything about racial extremism, but the

590
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: other prosecutor suggests that they look into his fitness gym

591
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: the Kovak Academy, as the owner quote has ties to

592
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: a few white nationalist organizations.

593
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 4: Uh oh.

594
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: The DA's office decides to investigate further. They arrive at

595
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 2: the gym as the buff Skinhead staff member from the

596
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: start of the episode is closing up for the day.

597
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: He claims to not know Brandon very well, and when

598
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: he's asked if he's ever heard Brandon say something that

599
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: could be interpreted as racist, he responds by saying, I'm sorry,

600
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: but I can't help you. The prosecutor makes a Snyder

601
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: remark and starts to leave, and the man quietly says, look,

602
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: I can't get into details, but let's just say you're

603
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: heading down the right path. But I can't help you

604
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: because it would be low my cover unquote.

605
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 4: Whoa, oh my gosh, he's a.

606
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: Cop infiltrating the Nazi fight club.

607
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 4: I mean, there are some cops in there right. I

608
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: don't know if I would say they're infiltrating.

609
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 5: Uh.

610
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: The next scene is the funniest in the whole episode.

611
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: After stumbling onto the undercover operation, the head DA arrives

612
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 2: at the NYPD counter Terrorism Bureau as they have info

613
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: pertaining to the prosecution's murder case. But the counter Terrorism

614
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: Bureau explains their scope is much larger than this one case,

615
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: and they have quote had their eye on Kovac for

616
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: a while now. They explained to the DA that his

617
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: MMA gym is actually a quote active club, part of

618
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: an international network of a white supremacist sleeper cells that

619
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: all front as MMA style gyms unquote. So okay, okay, okay.

620
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: White nationalists have been using MMA gyms to front for

621
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: activities for decades.

622
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 4: I just found a new one the other day.

623
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: This does happen. This does not mean they are active clubs,

624
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: nor do active clubs have to be MMA gyms. These

625
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: are these things are venn diagrams that can sometimes overlap,

626
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: but not always. The version of active clubs we see

627
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: in this episode now starts getting pretty fictitious.

628
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: It.

629
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 3: Immediately first I was like, ah, that's like a fairly

630
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: reasonable like yeah, like we do have active clubs at

631
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: MMA gyms, that's the thing. They were like, And they're

632
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: stockpiling weapons to do a January sixth Yeah, so what what?

633
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: So they say they've identified over thirty active clubs across

634
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: nine states and several provinces of Canada. So nine states

635
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: far too low. There's active clubs in way more states

636
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: than that. There's also not necessarily like if you have

637
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: thirty active clubs across nine states, that's a bizarre ratio.

638
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 2: That means there's a lot of active clubs in like

639
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: a few states, which generally isn't how it kind of

640
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: ends up being there's maybe like one or two, maybe

641
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: three like per state. We don't fully know, but I

642
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 2: will give them points for adding in the Canadian chapters,

643
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: which most people kind of overlook.

644
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: But also like, why is the NYPD investigating something happening

645
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: in nine states?

646
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 4: That's Feds To be fair, that is fully accurate.

647
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 2: The NYPD counter Terrorism Bureau investigates things all over the world.

648
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 4: But it's like just let if it's interstate, let the

649
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 4: FEDS handle it.

650
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: Their jurisdiction is fucking bonkers. They're like the third biggest

651
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: that counter terrorism like law enforcement group in the entire world.

652
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 4: It's like one of the world's largest standing armies.

653
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is. It is absurd, they say. Quote

654
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: the clubs operate as recruitment centers. They lure in a

655
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: young white men under the guise of getting fit while

656
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: indoctrinating them in racist ideology and training them in military

657
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: combat unquote. Now, the training that people receive in active

658
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: clubs very often does not equal military combat training. In fact,

659
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: they often have very poor fitness regiments and really bad

660
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: advice on how to get fit.

661
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: I mean, if getting hooked on gear and rolling around

662
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: on the floor shirtless with the boys is military combat training,

663
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: then absolutely.

664
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: If if you look at the there's a pretty sensive

665
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: docks of some of the active club members of the

666
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: State of Georgia last year, and they were their fitness

667
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 2: information was not up to stuff. They were mostly seventeen

668
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: year olds who were arguing about different ways to like

669
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: lift better. Anyway, lawn Order says that these active clubs

670
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 2: are quote trying to build an army. It's the new

671
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 2: face of hate unquote, a very kind of retro slogan.

672
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: We don't really use that anymore, but if you look

673
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: like ten years ago or like, yeah, around ten years ago,

674
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: you would see a lot of like liberal articles talking

675
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 2: about the new face of hate. Quote no more white

676
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 2: sheets or burning crosses. They've adapted and created a facade

677
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 2: to mask their racist beliefs unquote. So the DA wants

678
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: their undercover guy to testify to secure the conviction against

679
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: one of the Active Club members, but the count Terrorism

680
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: Bureau doesn't want to blow their nine month undercover operation

681
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 2: even for a murder conviction, as they've quote recently received

682
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: credible intel that Kovak is now stock pile leg of

683
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: firearms and explosive materials unquote, so.

684
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 4: They should probably go ahead and arrest him for that.

685
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 4: Huh yeah, yeah, right, it's time to move.

686
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: I guess now they're combining like active club stuff with

687
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: some like Adam Woffin and militious stuff just like throat,

688
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: just just smushing together all these different groups into one

689
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: like mega boogeeyman. I guess quote these men are terrorists.

690
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 2: They're capable of significant violence unquote. So the Count Terrorists

691
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: in Bureau suggests that the DA takes a quote big

692
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: picture of view of the situation unquote. So the DA

693
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: breaks the news to the prosecution team that the undercover

694
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: will be unable to testify because the active Club is

695
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: quote planning a coordinated attack along the lines of the

696
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: January sixth insurrection unquote.

697
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: So you should probably like the undercover operation is over,

698
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: Like if you have credible intel that there's an imminent.

699
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 5: Attack, like the operation is over. So also like this

700
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 5: is just not what active clubs do. Like this is

701
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 5: like they don't care about J six. That's like a

702
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 5: proud boy thing and some militia dudes, like most active

703
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 5: club members would be like no, all of the JA

704
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 5: six people are like fucking like conservative like Trump Trump,

705
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 5: brain brain dead losers. They're like it takes really that thing.

706
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: A couple of years ago where those members of the

707
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: base were arrested right before they were going to try

708
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 3: to kick off the Civil War by inciting.

709
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 4: They were going to shoot into the crowd at.

710
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 3: The gun rally in Richmond at the Virginia and then

711
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 3: the plan was that everyone would start shooting each other,

712
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 3: you know. And it's like so they had a pretty

713
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 3: large stockpile of weapons that one of the guys was Canadians,

714
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: so like.

715
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 4: Maybe they got mixed up with that in the base.

716
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like they're combining elements of the base, Adam Offfen,

717
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 2: active clubs, proud boys into like this like mega boogeyman, right,

718
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: just a villain. The DA says that this new attack

719
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: will quote only be more violent and without advance warning

720
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: this time.

721
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 4: And what do you mean without advanced warning?

722
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: He just says, are right, right, let this happen.

723
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 4: The greater good is for us to allow this to occur.

724
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: The undercover investigation cannot be justitized in any way. But

725
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: as this looks more and more like a racially targeted

726
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: murder according to the DA, the DA's office is to

727
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 2: find a different way to show that Brandon is racist.

728
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: Quote it's for the greater good a phrase, a phrase

729
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: that Hugh Dancy says helps justify a lot of otherwise

730
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: unjustifiable positions. And true, they start getting into this kind

731
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: of debate around like the ethics of like doing a

732
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: long term infiltration operation versus seeing like a like like

733
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: an active like like seeing an active threat, or like

734
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: seeing a way to like currently clamp down on a

735
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: like arm of an organization even if they can't get

736
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: the whole thing yet, And they have this debate like

737
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: is it is it better to like do like a

738
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: long term strategy or to like just like chop off

739
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: as many limbs as we can. As we go on

740
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 2: and again, it doesn't make sense because if they have

741
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 2: all this credible intel, why not just like get them

742
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 2: right now?

743
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 4: But like what I wrap it up?

744
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: So back in court, mister Kovak is on the stand.

745
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 2: Hugh Dancy asks if he and the defendant have ever

746
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: discussed quote racial ideology, to which Kovac says, I don't

747
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 2: know what that means. Believable, the prosible, I mean, yeah,

748
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 2: that is the correct answer for this situation. The prosecutor

749
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,959
Speaker 2: elaborates racial purity into racial marriage, what role black people

750
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 2: should or shouldn't have in society, and Kovak once again

751
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 2: feigns ignorance. Hugh Dancy asks about Kovac's eighty eight tattoo

752
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: being a Nazi symbol, and Kovak just says, I don't know,

753
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: I just like the number eighty eight, and.

754
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 4: Then he doesn't.

755
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 3: The prosecutor doesn't explain to the jury, no does mean

756
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: Kyle Hitler.

757
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 2: He just he just he just moves on. Never once

758
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 2: in the episode is it explained that the eighty eight

759
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: symbol me is a reference to high Hitler.

760
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 4: Never ever actually say it, never say it.

761
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Dancy does bring up mister Kovak's four prior convictions

762
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: for assaulting black men, two of which were charged as

763
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: hate crimes, and Covec just says, that was a long

764
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: time ago.

765
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 3: And now see, I do want to say, because you

766
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 3: made such a big deal about it earlier, about how

767
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 3: you can't ask about prior convictions. I think in this

768
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: case it is an allowable exception because it goes to

769
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 3: direct impeachment, like if he said, like, yeah, you know,

770
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: he made a statement himself about how he's not racist,

771
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: and you say, well, you have a hate crime conviction, and.

772
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 2: Later in the court room he says that he of

773
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 2: course obviously doesn't have any problems with black people. When

774
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: being a questioned by the defense attorney, but Hugh Dancy

775
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: pulls up Kovac's social media accounts, all of which contained

776
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 2: the phrase blood and soil in his bio objection relevance.

777
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: The prosecution then argues that Rebecculaski's testimony of hearing something

778
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: about blood and dirt may have been a vague recollection

779
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: of hearing blood and soil. No Dancy describes blood and

780
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 2: soil as a Nazi reference to a racially uniform society.

781
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 3: The jury would not have been allowed to hear this.

782
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 3: This happened outside the presence of the jury.

783
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: Covect just says the phrase means that you're proud of

784
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: who you are and where you come from. Kovac taught

785
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: the defendant how to fight, how to do a choke hold.

786
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: So to end the questioning, Hugh Dancy asks if he

787
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: also taught the defendant to hate black people. Objection, objection,

788
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: all right, So, The defense's closing argument frames the subway

789
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: as a dangerous, lawless zone and Brandon as a peaceful

790
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 2: elementary school teacher who has never gotten as much as

791
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: a speeding.

792
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 4: Ticket, probably because he doesn't drive.

793
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you live in New York. U who saw

794
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: someone in danger and bravely decided to step up and

795
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: do something. The prosecution's closing argument frames Brandon Arnaut as

796
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 2: a closeted racist who saw an opportunity to put his

797
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: white supremacist ideology into practice in a situation where he

798
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: thought he could get away with it. Quote. People like

799
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 2: mister Arno their bigotry buttoned up. They only discussed it

800
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: as people who share their hateful worldview. They rely on

801
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: plausible deniability because if the racism isn't overt, many good

802
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: people are all too happy to assume it isn't there.

803
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 2: But every once in a while, in moments of panic

804
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: or anger, the mask will slip. Unquote. Hugh Dancy closes

805
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 2: by saying that Elis Joyner was an innocent, unarmed black

806
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: man suffering a medical emergency, and the two white people

807
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 2: on the train assumed he was a violent threat and

808
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: they attacked him. And even if there was no intention

809
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: to kill at the start quote, at some point the

810
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: defendant's focus shifted and his racial hate began to manifest unquote,

811
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: yelling blood and soil at Joiner quote a declaration of

812
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: hatred for all people of color unquote, as Brandon choked

813
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: him to death.

814
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 4: Okay, here's the thing. Here's the thing, this whole situation

815
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 4: with the.

816
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 3: Undercover of the counter terrorism I have to believe that

817
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: they're trying to set up a longer plot arc that

818
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 3: that's going to come back in a later episode or so.

819
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 4: They have a new spin off called.

820
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 3: Law and Order Organized Crime with Christopher Maloney Elliot Stabler

821
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 3: from SVU. So I wonder if they're going to cross

822
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: it over to organized crime, because it makes no sense.

823
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 2: That's what I assume. I think this White Nationals group

824
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 2: is going to come back and be even a bigger

825
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: plat point in a future episode. It didn't need to

826
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: be in here otherwise, the inclusion in this in this

827
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: piece is really bizarre.

828
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 4: So but no, So, but what.

829
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 3: I was going to say, is they did not need

830
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 3: that undercovers testimony because the only testimony they wanted to

831
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: elicit from him was like as a character witness to

832
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 3: say like, oh, yeah, I've met him and he's racist.

833
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 3: That wouldn't really even be admissible in most like like

834
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 3: even if the even if the judge allowed the jury

835
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: to hear that, Like, this isn't a hate crime case.

836
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter. What matters is.

837
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: Whether or not he used excessive like more force than

838
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 3: was necessary for a self defense argument.

839
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: Right, the entire legal strategy they shift to halfway through

840
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 2: the corpora cet is so obviously a dead end that

841
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: doesn't actually relate.

842
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 4: To and wouldn't have been allowed.

843
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so it's so bizarre.

844
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 3: And if they wanted to and if they wanted to

845
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 3: get information about like his views that maybe his family

846
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 3: didn't know about, that people at work didn't know about,

847
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 3: why did they not get warrants for his phone and computer?

848
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: I mean I think they did because they mentioned in

849
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: searching through his phone and computer multiple times through the.

850
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 3: Episode, found that he had searched for like how to

851
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 3: delete from cloud or whatever from the guy's phone.

852
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: But like, again I think that's mostly just like undercooked.

853
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 3: He didn't open like his telegram account to see what exactly.

854
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: You didn't see the active club chat season. You didn't

855
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: see like you didn't talk to any other members of

856
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 2: the Combat Academy, no other members of the gym really anyway,

857
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: So the jury finds the defendant not guilty because yeah, okay.

858
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: Outside the courtroom, the head DA says, quote, we did

859
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: the best that we could.

860
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 3: Here's another problem or another problem. So not all states

861
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 3: allow this, but in New York, the court can submit

862
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: to the jury what are called lesser included charges. So

863
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 3: if you're charged with murder two I think was what

864
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 3: they charged him with his case, you know, the jury

865
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 3: can deliberate on the actual charge murder too, but they

866
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 3: can also consider what are called lesser included charges, so

867
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 3: something like manslaughter. So the jury can say, well, we're

868
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: not going to convict on murder, tube we do think

869
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: it was manslaughter, so we're going to convict on that,

870
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,359
Speaker 3: even though that wasn't the charge in the indictment. So

871
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 3: I can't imagine that this DA would not have pushed

872
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 3: for lesser included charges.

873
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: Well, Hugh Dancy may agree. He says, quote no, we

874
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: could have done better. We just chose not to for

875
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: the greater good.

876
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: No, but they they could.

877
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: I think I think he said that kind of sarcastically.

878
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 2: The DA affirms that one day soon they will take

879
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: down the whole racist organization. But behind the two days

880
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: here Brandon walks out of the courtroom and celebrates with

881
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: the other members of the Active Club. End of episode.

882
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 3: Okay, so, but when they put Kovac on the stand

883
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 3: and they were saying, like, oh, like, did you teach

884
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 3: him about racism? The better line of questioning at that

885
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 3: moment would have been, Okay, you're his grappling coach, did

886
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: you teach him how dangerous choke holts are?

887
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 2: Right?

888
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 3: Because, like, I don't know anything about a choke holds,

889
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 3: So if I accidentally killed someone with one, maybe I

890
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 3: didn't know that would happen. If you are taking five

891
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,720
Speaker 3: hours a week of private hand to hand combat lessons,

892
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 3: you probably do know, and that would go to you know, foreknowledge,

893
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: and like, didn't why didn't they ask that?

894
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 2: Again? I started this episode because I thought it would

895
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: be about active clubs, and it turns out by the

896
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: end it's really not.

897
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 4: It's really about Daniel Penny it's really.

898
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: About the killing of Jordan Neely. So this is the

899
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: actual rip from the headlines piece that they're doing, which

900
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: I did not really realize until the episode was over.

901
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: So this is this is kind of riffing on the

902
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: incident that happened on my first twenty twenty Jordan Neely

903
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: was a thirty year old black man. He was Michael

904
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: Jackson impersonator at the time. He was homeless. He was

905
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 2: running the subway in Manhattan and appeared emotionally distressed. He

906
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 2: was yelling about needing food and water. No one was

907
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: helping him. He was yelling that he didn't care about

908
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: going to jail. He was ready to die, and this

909
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: was reportedly frightening other writers. Daniel Penny, a twenty four

910
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: year old former marine, approached Neely and placed him in

911
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: a lethal chocold that lasted anywhere from five to seven minutes,

912
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 2: depending on if you ask the prosecution or the defense.

913
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: Penny was repeatedly told by other writers that Neely appeared

914
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: to be dying. By the time first aid was being administered,

915
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: he was already dead. Daniel Penny was let go after

916
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: being questioned by police, and only arrested eleven days later.

917
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: I think this is the part where they're like, do

918
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: we want to let him go or charge him? Now?

919
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of what they're doing here. On

920
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 2: June fourteenth, twenty twenty three, he was indicted on a

921
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: charge of second degree manslaughter. The trials scheduled to start

922
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 2: on October eighth, twenty twenty four. So this episode also,

923
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: I think it fails in a lot of ways. And

924
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: this depiction of active clubs, it uses certain terms like

925
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: the term active clubs, which I was surprised they just

926
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: I'm surprised they use because that's kind of more of

927
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 2: like a niche term, but they just made it to

928
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,919
Speaker 2: be this like MMA elite Nazi squad. And I think

929
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: them trying to include this bit does an incredible disservice

930
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: to trying to depict the killing of Jordan Neely, which,

931
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: first of all, like there's already problematic aspects right of

932
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,919
Speaker 2: turning this like this like really fucked up thing into

933
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: a piece of entertainment. That's kind of why I started

934
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 2: this episode with that monologue. But I think by cramming

935
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: so many other elements in here, like this like like

936
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: this homophobia angle, this this this active club angle, it

937
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: does a real disservice to the actual incident that they're

938
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: trying to comment on, where there was a man in

939
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: a very crowded subway who very publicly was basically lynched

940
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 2: because a few writers were not super comfortable when riding

941
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 2: the subway because this man was yelling for food and water.

942
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: So it's not it's not great, But after watching Leave

943
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: the World Behind Civil War on this, I think this

944
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 2: is the best depiction of our current political moment out

945
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 2: of all of those three things, which is a pretty

946
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: fucked up bar. I guess, Molly, do you have any

947
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: other thoughts on how they depict Nazi stuff in this?

948
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: I mean not.

949
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 3: Well, not well, bitch, uh no. The I was just

950
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 3: gonna say, I was looking on Reddit and seeing people's

951
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 3: people's takes on it on the Law and Order Reddit,

952
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 3: and I found this fantastic comment. They did take the

953
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 3: Daniel Penny case but changed the whole story to make

954
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 3: Penny look guilty, probably to make the real Penny look

955
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 3: like a bad guy in real life.

956
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 2: Object objection, objection.

957
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 4: Objection in your Honor object mods mods.

958
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: Not yeah, not great because also yeah, it also like

959
00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: for people who are like looking at this as a

960
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: Herald to Jordanai like, oh, why did they change so

961
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 2: many details to make them look even more guilty, and like, no,

962
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: that's not what's happening at all.

963
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 3: Like, I think they did a disservice to that story

964
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 3: by changing so many elements. I mean, like you said,

965
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 3: there's there's a conversation to be had about the ethics

966
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 3: of depicting the story as entertainment, period. But if they're

967
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 3: going to do it, and they've been doing it for

968
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 3: thirty years, right, that's just what law and Order does.

969
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 3: If they're going to do it, I think they have

970
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 3: a responsibility to not do this, to not do this.

971
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, again, they have bigger fish to fry, since

972
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 2: there's that upcoming worse than January sixth attack head led

973
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 2: by these MMA guys who are stockpiling explosives, So watch

974
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 2: out for that, I guess.

975
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I'll have to watch the rest of

976
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: the season to see if the MMA gym blows up

977
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 3: New York.

978
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will not be until they release a direct

979
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 2: follow up, So I think that doesn't for us today.

980
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 2: This is already way too.

981
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 4: This episode's already long. On the episode, it's.

982
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 2: Already longer through the Law and Order episode. So that

983
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: does it for us today. Thank you for listening. If

984
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: you want to check out my review of Civil War,

985
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,919
Speaker 2: It's very short, but it's kind of to the point.

986
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: I'm on letterboxed at Hungry bow Tie, and then the

987
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: reviews that I liked, which are underneath my own review,

988
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: go into more depth about kind of the problems with

989
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 2: that film in my opinion and other people's opinion. Anyway,

990
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 2: Where can people find you online? Molly?

991
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 3: Oh, I am on Twitter at Socialist dog Mom and

992
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 3: my newsletter The Devil's Advocates on ghost and I guess

993
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 3: that's it for me. Oh, I'm podcasting sometimes now.

994
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 2: No objections from me.

995
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess By the time you're listening to this,

996
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 3: you can listen to my latest episode of this show yesterday.

997
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: All right. See on the other side.

998
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 4: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

999
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

1000
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

1001
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You

1002
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly

1003
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 1: at coolzonemedia dot com. Slash sources. Thanks for listening,