WEBVTT - Phobos and Deimos: The Moons of Mars, Part 1 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:15.200 My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.720 My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:22.840 today we're gonna be bringing you an episode about space objects. 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:25.360 And as we often do, we're gonna be We're gonna 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.760 be starting off here by talking a little bit about 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.120 the mythology that is related to these space objects. Rob 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.279 do you mind if I start with a reading from 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.680 the Iliad? Oh, let's do it, okay, So I want 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.440 to read a passage from the Iliad, book four, from 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:44.040 the excellent translation by Caroline Alexander, And this is describing 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:48.960 a big host of warriors raging for battle. It begins, 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.000 but the Trojans, as the numberless use of a wealthy man, 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.280 stand in their pen to be milked of their white milk, 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:01.360 bleeding incessantly as they hear the cry of their lambs. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.560 So the war cries of the Trojans rose through the 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.399 broad army. For the speech of all the men was 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.840 not the same, nor was there one voice, but the 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.640 tongues were mixed in confusion. The men were summoned from 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:19.360 many places. These men aries drove on and gleaming eyed 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:26.480 Athena drove the Achaeans, and terror and panic and strife, raging, insatiable, 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:30.880 the sister and companion of Man slaughtering Aries. She is 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.840 small when she first rises up, but in the end 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.960 she leans her head against the heavens even as she 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.319 strides upon the earth. Oh, I love that section about 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.680 the the bad sister there. And she's small when she 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.120 first rises up, but then when she she gets big, 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:48.000 she leans her head against the heavens and got her 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.200 feet on the earth. So uh. That is referring to 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.800 one of the companions of Aries, the the god of war. 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.160 In this passage. It is written in this translation as strife, 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.600 the abstract concept, but in the Greek, of course, strife 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.480 is also the goddess Heiress, and I love that final 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.040 couplet about her. But there are a couple of other 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.880 concepts that are mentioned there that also have personifications. It's 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.720 not just Heiress, the goddess of strife. There's also terror 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.360 and panic that are driven on by Aries, and these 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:24.680 concepts have the godly personifications of the God's phobos and demos. 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:29.320 So phobos and demos are each and abstract concept representing 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.079 a human state of mind or something you might witness 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.200 on the battlefield or leading up to it. But they're 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:39.000 also these heavenly persons in the Greek mythology, and to 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.800 read another passage from the Iliad about their their representations, 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:47.400 also from the Caroline Alexandra translation. Then he took up 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:52.480 his man, surrounding much emblazoned forceful shield, a thing of beauty, 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.000 around which ran tin rings of bronze, and on it 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.639 twenty pale shining discs of tin, and in the very 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.320 center was one of dark enameled blue, and crowning this 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:08.160 a snake bristling gorgon face stared out with dreadful glare, 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.640 terror and route about her, and the shields baldric was 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.960 of silver, and on it a blue dark serpent writhed 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.680 with three heads turned in all directions, growing from a 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.760 single neck. So here this actually ties back into the 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.720 episodes that we re aired pretty recently. I think about 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.120 the gorgon Medusa and how uh the the head of 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:34.880 the gorgon of of Medusa is widely represented in in 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.200 Greek art and in Greek literature as a feature of 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.440 Greek art, mentioned in the literature as this, like this 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.760 thing that would be on the aegis of Athena or 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.960 of Zeus, a terrifying image looking out at you. But 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.760 mentioned alongside the face of the Gorgon, here are Terror 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.760 and Route. Again I think these would be Phobos and Demos. Yeah, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.560 Phobos and Demos. So, like you said, this episode we're 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.640 getting spacey. We're also getting a little methought mythological here, 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.120 especially at the start. Phobos and Demos are the names 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.800 of the two moons of the planet Mars. Uh and 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.640 so this this marks a return for us uh in 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:13.960 in the past. I want to say, it's been a 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.919 couple of years at least now. We did episodes exploring 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.880 the moons of Jupiter, and then other another episode or 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.640 episodes exploring the moons of Saturn. And we always intended 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.960 to venture onto other moons, and here we are now 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.120 exploring the moons of Mars, much like the space agencies 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.599 of Earth. We have long wanted to return a sample 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.920 from the moons of Mars and and have failed to 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.160 do so. But you know, maybe the time has finally come. 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.280 Don't curse this. We might have a technological problem, uh 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.480 during the recording or retrieval of this episode. Uh So, 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.360 I'm so excited to be talking about a this gorgeous 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.400 couple of space turn ups in orbit around Mars and uh. 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:54.839 And so this is going to be the first of 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.119 a pair of episodes. Be sure to join us for both. Yes, 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.200 uh and even though it deals with two moons, it's 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.680 just gonna be. It's very much a part one in 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:06.680 part two. It's not like one episode is Phobos in 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.080 one episode is Demos, as you will see. But before 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.240 we even get back into Phobos and Demos, I want 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.640 to start by talking just a bit about our naming 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:21.760 of Mars itself. Um. So today we know largely refer 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.039 to the fourth planet from the Sun as Mars. But 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.599 of course Mars can be seen in the night sky 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.120 without the aid of a telescope. So it's gone by 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.839 many names and has been factored into numerous pantheons and 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:38.640 cosmological systems throughout human history. Right Mars, because it is 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.520 it can be observed through naked eye astronomy. It was 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:46.680 known to the ancient Mesopotamians. Yeah, there was the god Nergal, 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.960 a god of of plague and war, the one that 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.680 kind of evolved apparently from a war god into a 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.960 another world deity. But this was a This was a 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:03.560 deity that was recognized by the Sumerians. Likewise, the Greeks 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.520 knew it as the star of aries, and we'll of 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.880 course talk more about areas here in a bit. In Hinduism, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.520 Mars was associated with Mangala, a god of war that 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:17.200 interestingly seems to encompass aspects of war related to anger 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:21.680 and hot headedness, but also to stability and balance. And 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:26.400 then the ancient Egyptians connected Mars to Horace, the celestial 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.920 falcon and embodiment of kingship. Geraldine Pinch points out in 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:35.479 Egyptian mythology that Egypt's earliest kings were depicted as hawks 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.080 praying on their enemies. So here once once more we 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:43.280 can easily connect this to a motif of warfare um uh, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.400 well of one former that or another uh. Though interestingly enough, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.120 in Chinese traditions, Mars was apparently merely associated with the 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.280 element of fire. Oh yeah, because in the Chinese astronomical 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.880 traditions that different heavenly bodies tend to be associated with 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.320 like the elements of earth. Right, so like one planet 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.280 will be fire, one planet will be would one planet 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.600 will be metal or something else? Yeah? Yeah, exactly. Um, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.720 so they're important within um you know, Chinese cosmology and 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:15.040 Chinese astrology, though I've also read it argued that the 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.760 planets have have maybe less of a significance in Chinese 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:23.160 cosmology versus uh, their their place especially in um in 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:25.400 in you know, some of these other models that were 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.920 looking at here where they're closely associated with very important gods. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.360 Coming back to the idea that some of the earliest 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.360 kings of Egypt were depicted as hawks praying on their enemies, 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:37.960 I was just thinking how good it would be if 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.080 you just made a slight rotation on that and they 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:45.000 were portrayed as vultures vomiting on their enemies. Yeah. Well, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.760 you know, there's it's not not that huge of a difference, right, 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.120 and also seems kind of fitting so and and it 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.920 would be in keeping with with what we've been discussing here, 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.560 right because so far we we've been talking about connections 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.840 to ideas of blood and fire. And of course this 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.400 inevitably seems to stem from the fact that Mars appears 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.800 as a red quote unquote star in the night sky. 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.680 Even here in Atlanta, where we have a terrible light 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.200 pollution at night, you can often go out and see 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:20.400 that that red, gleaming eye of Mars out there in 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.920 the distance. I think my eyes must be a little 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.800 bad because I've never personally been able to notice the 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:27.800 redness of Mars when I've looked at it with the 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.440 naked eye. But I believe other people do see it. Yeah, 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.079 I mean it's it's it's it's faint, but it's it's noticeable, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.080 you know, like you can you can tell that there's 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.199 something different going on. Compared to all the other stars 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.280 in the sky. It stands out. And since it has 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.439 that red color, you know, it makes sense to associate 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.800 it with blood and fire and violence and all of 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.240 these things tied up with it. So the name Mars, 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:55.199 of course uh arises from the Roman tradition, and roughly speaking, 0:08:55.240 --> 0:09:00.199 you can say that the Roman god of war is Mars, 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.880 and in the Greek god of war is Aries, and 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.560 these are basically two names for the same thing. But 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:11.319 it's it's really worth driving home that then, Mars differs 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.720 from Areas, and that while Arias was a god of 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:18.560 brutality and war in its most base and chaotic state, 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.839 which I think is is is well represented in in 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:26.440 the in the in in his usage in the Iliad Uh. 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.160 The Roman Mars, however, had a different character. He was 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:35.200 warfare as just and orderly, you know. He he was 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:39.560 warfare that brings um a sense of balance to the 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.439 world that you know, warfare is viewed by an imperial culture, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:48.200 you know, where war is the instrument that demonstrates your greatness. Yeah, 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.240 Mars is therefore a military deity that maintains order and 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.400 protects agriculture. Mars is Uh is very closely associated with 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:01.920 agriculture in the Roman tradition. Um So he upholds while 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:06.680 Aries threatens and tears down. Um So. It's it's interesting 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.000 because they are like two sides of the same thing, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.240 which which I think the Hindu god Mangala seems to 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:16.120 encompass both of these aspects. Here we see this divergence 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.480 in Aries and Uh in mars Um I was I 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:21.400 was reading a little bit more. There's a there's a 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:25.360 book called Classical Mythology a to z Um. Yeah, that's 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.160 quite good. And in one of the the ways they 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.079 describe Aries is that he is he's a lord or 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.720 a god of the screams of the dying. Uh So, 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.800 you know, it's it's not so so Yeah, mars Is 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:41.600 is the god of of war is great, war is good? 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.360 And then Aries is the war? What is it good for? 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.800 Uh deity? You know, he's just um he He is 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.920 the worst of the pantheon. Uh Is Aries the lord 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:57.120 of the screams of the dying. Sounds very like a 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:01.360 seventies exploitation movie epithe for him, right, you know, he's 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.160 um Aries and Aries again. Yeah, and I guess it 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.480 does come to like, you know, Aries is the very 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.360 nature and heart of war and violence, where Mars is 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:15.000 more like what what use can war be put to? 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.200 What does it? What does it do? What can it accomplish? Uh? 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.080 You know, very much a whitewashing of war. Now, as 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.920 with Jupiter that we you know, which we discussed in 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:31.079 our recent episode, Mars has many epithets or aspects um 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.800 So instead of having you know, a whole bunch of 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.600 different deities representing different shades of the same thing, you 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.760 have different versions of, say Jupiter, and in this case, 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.880 there are different versions of Mars as well, such as 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.640 Mars grativ Us, the marching Mars. So this would be 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.560 the Mars that a soldier in the field would swear 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.800 by because you know, as with Jupiter, deities are important 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.480 for swearing and making oaths and so forth. Another major 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:03.640 Mars is is Mars Pader, protector of agriculture. And this, 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:07.439 of course is is literally Mars the Father. And this 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.800 is also very notable because in Roman myth he is 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:15.160 the father. Uh, Mars is the father of Romulus and Remus, 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.960 the twin founders of Rome. So in the Roman tradition, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.680 Mars isn't just the god of of noble war. He 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.360 is also the ancestor of the Roman people. He is 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.040 the patriarch of the empire exactly. Yeah, so he yeah, 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.920 he is the empire. Um. Now this is this is 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:37.960 where it gets kind of curious, right, And I imagine 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.440 a number of people are already thinking about this. So, 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.880 in the Roman tradition, the primary war god Mars has 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:50.120 two highly important sons, Romulus and Remus. So wouldn't it 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.319 make more sense to name the two moons of Mars 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.760 after Romulus and Remus, rather than going to the Greek 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.040 topping over to the Greek tradition and drawing on the 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.160 two uh, two of the sons of Aries. Wouldn't that 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.120 imply that one of the moon's has to kill the 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.480 other moon. Um. Well, you know, as we'll get into 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:11.559 in this episode of the next that's not a crazy 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.120 idea considering the House of Mars over there. Orbitally speaking, 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.400 I may be remembering my mythology wrong. I think things 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.600 go bad for Remus. Well, um, it's worth worth noting. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.240 Outside of Star trek Lore, Romulus is the outer moon 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.600 of the main Belt asteroid eighties seven Sylvia, and Remus 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.000 is the inner moon. Sylvia is named for Rea Sylvia, 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.520 the mythical mother of the founders of Rome. Uh So 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.800 it's you know, kind of this was all filled in later. Well, 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:42.839 while while we're doing a round up, I should also 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.160 mention that that passage from the Iliad I read at 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.280 the top that had that great couplet about airis the 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.520 goddess of strife. Uh There is actually an object name 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.440 for Airess as well. It's the dwarf planet Eiress that 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.120 is not quite a planet, but is a nearly nearly 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.120 spherical asteroid. Yeah. I guess it's a Basically, we're just 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.640 gonna keep finding new things to name. Uh So, if 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.000 you're if you're out there, any members of the Greek 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.679 Roman pantheon and you don't have something named after you yet, 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.000 just hold on, just be patient, um and mortal beings 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.480 that you are, We'll get around to you eventually. Wait 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.440 a second, I feel like I just said something wrong. 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.520 I think I called Aris an asteroid as uh, Airis 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.560 is not an asteroid. Airis is a nearly spherical trans 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.480 Neptunian object. Apologies about that. You're apologizing to the planet 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.280 or the deity. I don't want to be roped in 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.240 by strife here, want to make an enemy of strife, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.680 all right? So yeah, obviously, instead of naming Mars's two 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:40.360 moons after rhyming lissen remus Uh the traditions of drawing 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.880 on the names of two of the many children of 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:47.720 Aries in Greek mythology, so partnered with Aphrodite. He fathered 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.960 Demos Phobos of course, and we'll get into them in 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:55.560 a second. But also Aros or love Uh Andros requitted 0:14:55.600 --> 0:15:00.760 love and Harmonia, who represents harmony. And he's also said 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.720 to have produced other children by other mothers. So there's 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.320 you know, there's a there's a vast brood. Now I 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.320 believe Aries. Uh. Isn't it the case that Aphrodity was 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.600 actually married to have faced Us the forge god the 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.920 the equivalent of the Roman vulcan, and that Aries is 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.160 sort of her lover on the side or are they 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.720 officially an item later on? There's a lot of drama there, Like, 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.160 I don't have to recall a myth about have faced 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.800 us making like a net of chains to catch them 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.000 in the act or something. Yeah, I mean it fits 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:37.240 the nature of Aries again, he's he's really the scum 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.920 of the pantheon here um. But let's talk a bit 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.240 about the twins Demos and Phobos, both deities very much 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.760 in the Greek tradition of war gods. While Demos is 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:53.480 traditionally associated with terror and dread, Phobos is fear and panic, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.560 though both of them may be collectively thought of as 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.840 deities of fear. Uh. They ride beside their father and 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.400 battle along with the goddess of discord Heiress so who 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.920 he mentioned already. But the twin brothers of Fear are 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.920 referred to in several key works. We already mentioned the Iliad. 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.160 They also show up in Hesiods, the Shield of Heracles 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.720 and um if if memory serves, I think in the 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.880 Shield of Heracles they actually like their their father is 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:24.239 wounded on the battlefield and they drag him off the battlefield, 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.680 So they're very much his his attendance, his personal guard, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.880 the warriors that go into battle beside him. Um. But 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.440 they are also just horrifying specters, you know, they are 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:41.240 gods of trauma and the psychological dimensions of war. Um. 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.720 But they do seem to revolve around their father on 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.200 the battlefield in a way befitting of moons. So perhaps 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.120 they're ultimately a better fit, uh than the Roman figures 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.160 of Romulus and Remus. Yeah, I would say that. I mean, 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.160 I think one thing that's interesting about them is that 0:16:55.200 --> 0:17:00.520 they represent two distinct types of fear that are things 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.280 that you need to manage differently if you're writing horror fiction, 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.840 say like that Phobos Phobos is is panic. Phobos is 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:12.080 sometimes translated as route, right, like getting routed in battle. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.840 You're just like, you know, you're terrified and you're running away, 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:21.119 whereas Demos is dread, the terror that builds in anticipation 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.480 of of something horrible. Yeah. Yeah, so uh, And I 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.879 also think it's probably more fitting because rome Elis and 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.280 Remus are a little more they're a little more fleshed 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:35.239 out as as figures, whereas Demos and Phobos are a 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.479 bit more abstract, you know, like we don't have as 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.520 many tales about them and stories about them that that uh, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.600 you know, that stick with us. They are more you know, 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.680 harshly formed they are, and then that they themselves are 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:53.080 these kind of like fragile, fractured nightmare beings. Um. And 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.280 I think that's very befitting of the sort of moons 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.919 that we're going to be talking about in these episodes. Sorry, 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.800 one thing I just got distracted wondering about. Wait a minute, 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.040 are are the moons of Mars especially scary as moons? 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:07.800 Not in the way that I can think of, but 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.399 they are rather mysterious. I think they are some of 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.520 the weirdest, most mysterious objects in the Solar system. You 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:17.440 can sort of looking at it sideways. Connect that sense 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.560 of mystery to a kind of creepiness about them. Yeah, 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:22.960 I mean, I guess I would. I would say that 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.280 less frightening as more just like, yeah, mysterious, and also 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.639 like you know, clearly the product of violence, and in 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.560 the case of one of the moons, like you know, 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.879 just destined for destruction is just on a on a 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.960 collision course with destruction. Um, you know, and uh, I 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.160 think it pairs well with this idea of like two 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:46.760 shattered beings that serve this horrible god they you know, 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.160 that represents some of the worst aspects of of mortals 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:54.760 except in immortal form um. So yeah, I will come 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:59.360 back throughout these episodes with comparisons to the mythic twins, 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.480 the double Grima worm tongues of the Mars system. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.600 imagine there's some other good comparisons to make. Yeah, like 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:11.080 you know, the sons of some you know, awful ruler. 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.439 There might be a good Dune reference in there somewhere. 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.919 I'm not sure. Oh, I see, like they're the beast 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.600 Ribon and uh and fade Rouph the Yeah, though I 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.800 don't know. Fate has a lot of things together in 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.320 ways that these these two don't, so I'm not sure. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:33.040 Thank you. All right, Well, let's talk about the discovery 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.200 of phobos and demos. Like we said, Mars has been 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.760 something that people throughout human history have looked up and 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:43.679 seen and attributed various meanings and interpretations too, But not 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.919 so with phobos and demos. Uh, these were not to 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.440 be discovered for some time. Right, you have to get 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.840 well into the age of the telescope to be able 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.040 to see these objects from Earth because they are both 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.680 very small and very close to Mars, and when you're 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.879 looking at Mars in the night sky, it's reflecting a 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.480 lot of light and it's sort of going to blast 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.199 out any small objects nearby it. You're just not going 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.560 to be able to distinguish them from it. Yeah, So 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.840 it just simply wasn't possible. Um. They these two moons 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.640 were discovered though, in eighteen seventy seven by American astronomer 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:22.000 ASoft Hall, who lived eighty nine through nineteen oh seven. Now, 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.080 Hall was was large as an interesting character because, for 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.919 one thing, he was largely a self taught astronomer. He 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.280 was not a gentleman scientist of the day, but rather 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.680 the impoverished son of a clockmaker. His father died when 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.400 he was young, so he had to leave school uh 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:38.879 in order to be He was going to become an 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.959 apprentice to a carpenter, but later on he ended up 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.119 taking math classes at New York Central College, and from 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.639 there he took a job at the Harvard College Observatory 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.520 and then became an assistant astronomer at the US Naval Observatory, 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.439 and eventually he was made a professor, So he had 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.879 a really interesting career path, you know, an ascension story. 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.040 So uh, you know, on one hand, it's it's just 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.880 neat to see that kind of trajectory with an individual 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.440 who plays into the history of astronomy like this. So 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.280 the way it went down is in eighteen seventy seven, 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:16.639 during Mars Closest approach, his wife, Angeline Stickney, who was 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:21.000 a mathematician and a suffragists, encouraged him to engage in 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.160 the search for the Martian moons and and to keep 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.119 engaging in the search because he had been his writings. 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.160 He apparently a loses this saying, well, you know, there's 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.240 just seemed to be so such a small chance of 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.480 him seeing anything. Um, you know, he was considering just 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.879 giving it up, but his wife encouraged him on and 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.880 so he thought he made out Martian moons on August tenth, 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:42.800 but he couldn't be sure. You know, it was I 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.320 think the weather was weird that night, so he didn't 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.200 have the clarity that he wanted. But then on August 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.560 twelve he discovered Demos, and on August eighteenth he discovered Phobos. 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.119 Both both of these discoveries were made using equipment at 0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:00.560 the U. S. Naval Observatory in Washington, d C. Interesting now, 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.040 since he found them, he got to name them, But 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:04.920 as far as I can tell, there's not much more 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:06.879 to it than that. I don't you know, I couldn't 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:10.360 find anything about him having any real reasoning for choosing 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:13.320 these two names over Romulus and Remus. Uh, if he 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.080 ever considered other names, if he if he named them 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:20.080 in an error, I don't know. Um. I think ultimately 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.600 they're good names, though, just really scared that night he'd 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:26.199 been reading some ec comics or what would be correct 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.200 for the time period he was reading the Great God 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.440 Pan or whatever. Actually, I don't know if that was 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.879 out of the time. I mean, ultimately he you know, 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:34.440 he could have tried to call them Tweedle dumb and 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.760 tweedledd So I guess it's just as well that he 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.960 went with the Phobos and Demos. Now, this is an 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.800 interesting little side note. I can't find a what felt 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:45.639 to me like a really solid source on this, but 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.879 a profile of his wife, Stickney on the official U. S. 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:53.560 Navy page used to state that as she was helping 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.240 her husband with the calculations and all of this, she 0:22:56.359 --> 0:23:00.199 asked for a man's wages compensation, and he refused, so 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:05.440 she quit. Um, oh yeah, I think you know, it's 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.840 not like it's really hard to say. I couldn't find 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:09.639 any more information about this, So I don't know if 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:12.439 this is a joke, uh, if this is you know, 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.920