1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: today we're gonna be bringing you an episode about space objects. 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: And as we often do, we're gonna be We're gonna 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: be starting off here by talking a little bit about 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: the mythology that is related to these space objects. Rob 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: do you mind if I start with a reading from 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: the Iliad? Oh, let's do it, okay, So I want 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: to read a passage from the Iliad, book four, from 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: the excellent translation by Caroline Alexander, And this is describing 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: a big host of warriors raging for battle. It begins, 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: but the Trojans, as the numberless use of a wealthy man, 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: stand in their pen to be milked of their white milk, 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: bleeding incessantly as they hear the cry of their lambs. 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: So the war cries of the Trojans rose through the 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: broad army. For the speech of all the men was 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: not the same, nor was there one voice, but the 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: tongues were mixed in confusion. The men were summoned from 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: many places. These men aries drove on and gleaming eyed 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: Athena drove the Achaeans, and terror and panic and strife, raging, insatiable, 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: the sister and companion of Man slaughtering Aries. She is 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: small when she first rises up, but in the end 24 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: she leans her head against the heavens even as she 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: strides upon the earth. Oh, I love that section about 26 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: the the bad sister there. And she's small when she 27 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: first rises up, but then when she she gets big, 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: she leans her head against the heavens and got her 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: feet on the earth. So uh. That is referring to 30 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: one of the companions of Aries, the the god of war. 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: In this passage. It is written in this translation as strife, 32 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: the abstract concept, but in the Greek, of course, strife 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: is also the goddess Heiress, and I love that final 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: couplet about her. But there are a couple of other 35 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: concepts that are mentioned there that also have personifications. It's 36 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: not just Heiress, the goddess of strife. There's also terror 37 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: and panic that are driven on by Aries, and these 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: concepts have the godly personifications of the God's phobos and demos. 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: So phobos and demos are each and abstract concept representing 40 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: a human state of mind or something you might witness 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: on the battlefield or leading up to it. But they're 42 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: also these heavenly persons in the Greek mythology, and to 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: read another passage from the Iliad about their their representations, 44 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: also from the Caroline Alexandra translation. Then he took up 45 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: his man, surrounding much emblazoned forceful shield, a thing of beauty, 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: around which ran tin rings of bronze, and on it 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: twenty pale shining discs of tin, and in the very 48 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: center was one of dark enameled blue, and crowning this 49 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: a snake bristling gorgon face stared out with dreadful glare, 50 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: terror and route about her, and the shields baldric was 51 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: of silver, and on it a blue dark serpent writhed 52 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: with three heads turned in all directions, growing from a 53 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: single neck. So here this actually ties back into the 54 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: episodes that we re aired pretty recently. I think about 55 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: the gorgon Medusa and how uh the the head of 56 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: the gorgon of of Medusa is widely represented in in 57 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: Greek art and in Greek literature as a feature of 58 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: Greek art, mentioned in the literature as this, like this 59 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: thing that would be on the aegis of Athena or 60 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: of Zeus, a terrifying image looking out at you. But 61 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: mentioned alongside the face of the Gorgon, here are Terror 62 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: and Route. Again I think these would be Phobos and Demos. Yeah, 63 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: Phobos and Demos. So, like you said, this episode we're 64 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: getting spacey. We're also getting a little methought mythological here, 65 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: especially at the start. Phobos and Demos are the names 66 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: of the two moons of the planet Mars. Uh and 67 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: so this this marks a return for us uh in 68 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: in the past. I want to say, it's been a 69 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: couple of years at least now. We did episodes exploring 70 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: the moons of Jupiter, and then other another episode or 71 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: episodes exploring the moons of Saturn. And we always intended 72 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: to venture onto other moons, and here we are now 73 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: exploring the moons of Mars, much like the space agencies 74 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: of Earth. We have long wanted to return a sample 75 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: from the moons of Mars and and have failed to 76 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: do so. But you know, maybe the time has finally come. 77 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: Don't curse this. We might have a technological problem, uh 78 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: during the recording or retrieval of this episode. Uh So, 79 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be talking about a this gorgeous 80 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: couple of space turn ups in orbit around Mars and uh. 81 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: And so this is going to be the first of 82 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,119 Speaker 1: a pair of episodes. Be sure to join us for both. Yes, 83 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: uh and even though it deals with two moons, it's 84 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: just gonna be. It's very much a part one in 85 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: part two. It's not like one episode is Phobos in 86 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: one episode is Demos, as you will see. But before 87 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: we even get back into Phobos and Demos, I want 88 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: to start by talking just a bit about our naming 89 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: of Mars itself. Um. So today we know largely refer 90 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: to the fourth planet from the Sun as Mars. But 91 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: of course Mars can be seen in the night sky 92 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: without the aid of a telescope. So it's gone by 93 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: many names and has been factored into numerous pantheons and 94 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: cosmological systems throughout human history. Right Mars, because it is 95 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: it can be observed through naked eye astronomy. It was 96 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: known to the ancient Mesopotamians. Yeah, there was the god Nergal, 97 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: a god of of plague and war, the one that 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: kind of evolved apparently from a war god into a 99 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: another world deity. But this was a This was a 100 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: deity that was recognized by the Sumerians. Likewise, the Greeks 101 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: knew it as the star of aries, and we'll of 102 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: course talk more about areas here in a bit. In Hinduism, 103 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: Mars was associated with Mangala, a god of war that 104 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: interestingly seems to encompass aspects of war related to anger 105 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: and hot headedness, but also to stability and balance. And 106 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: then the ancient Egyptians connected Mars to Horace, the celestial 107 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: falcon and embodiment of kingship. Geraldine Pinch points out in 108 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: Egyptian mythology that Egypt's earliest kings were depicted as hawks 109 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: praying on their enemies. So here once once more we 110 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: can easily connect this to a motif of warfare um uh, 111 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: well of one former that or another uh. Though interestingly enough, 112 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: in Chinese traditions, Mars was apparently merely associated with the 113 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: element of fire. Oh yeah, because in the Chinese astronomical 114 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: traditions that different heavenly bodies tend to be associated with 115 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: like the elements of earth. Right, so like one planet 116 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: will be fire, one planet will be would one planet 117 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: will be metal or something else? Yeah? Yeah, exactly. Um, 118 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: so they're important within um you know, Chinese cosmology and 119 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: Chinese astrology, though I've also read it argued that the 120 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: planets have have maybe less of a significance in Chinese 121 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: cosmology versus uh, their their place especially in um in 122 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: in you know, some of these other models that were 123 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: looking at here where they're closely associated with very important gods. 124 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: Coming back to the idea that some of the earliest 125 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: kings of Egypt were depicted as hawks praying on their enemies, 126 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: I was just thinking how good it would be if 127 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: you just made a slight rotation on that and they 128 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: were portrayed as vultures vomiting on their enemies. Yeah. Well, 129 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, there's it's not not that huge of a difference, right, 130 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: and also seems kind of fitting so and and it 131 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: would be in keeping with with what we've been discussing here, 132 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: right because so far we we've been talking about connections 133 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: to ideas of blood and fire. And of course this 134 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: inevitably seems to stem from the fact that Mars appears 135 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: as a red quote unquote star in the night sky. 136 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: Even here in Atlanta, where we have a terrible light 137 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: pollution at night, you can often go out and see 138 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: that that red, gleaming eye of Mars out there in 139 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: the distance. I think my eyes must be a little 140 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: bad because I've never personally been able to notice the 141 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: redness of Mars when I've looked at it with the 142 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: naked eye. But I believe other people do see it. Yeah, 143 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's it's faint, but it's it's noticeable, 144 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, like you can you can tell that there's 145 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: something different going on. Compared to all the other stars 146 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: in the sky. It stands out. And since it has 147 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: that red color, you know, it makes sense to associate 148 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: it with blood and fire and violence and all of 149 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: these things tied up with it. So the name Mars, 150 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: of course uh arises from the Roman tradition, and roughly speaking, 151 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: you can say that the Roman god of war is Mars, 152 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: and in the Greek god of war is Aries, and 153 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: these are basically two names for the same thing. But 154 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: it's it's really worth driving home that then, Mars differs 155 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: from Areas, and that while Arias was a god of 156 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: brutality and war in its most base and chaotic state, 157 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: which I think is is is well represented in in 158 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: the in the in in his usage in the Iliad Uh. 159 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: The Roman Mars, however, had a different character. He was 160 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: warfare as just and orderly, you know. He he was 161 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: warfare that brings um a sense of balance to the 162 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: world that you know, warfare is viewed by an imperial culture, 163 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, where war is the instrument that demonstrates your greatness. Yeah, 164 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: Mars is therefore a military deity that maintains order and 165 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: protects agriculture. Mars is Uh is very closely associated with 166 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: agriculture in the Roman tradition. Um So he upholds while 167 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: Aries threatens and tears down. Um So. It's it's interesting 168 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: because they are like two sides of the same thing, 169 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: which which I think the Hindu god Mangala seems to 170 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: encompass both of these aspects. Here we see this divergence 171 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: in Aries and Uh in mars Um I was I 172 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: was reading a little bit more. There's a there's a 173 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: book called Classical Mythology a to z Um. Yeah, that's 174 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: quite good. And in one of the the ways they 175 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: describe Aries is that he is he's a lord or 176 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: a god of the screams of the dying. Uh So, 177 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's not so so Yeah, mars Is 178 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: is the god of of war is great, war is good? 179 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: And then Aries is the war? What is it good for? 180 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: Uh deity? You know, he's just um he He is 181 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: the worst of the pantheon. Uh Is Aries the lord 182 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: of the screams of the dying. Sounds very like a 183 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: seventies exploitation movie epithe for him, right, you know, he's 184 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: um Aries and Aries again. Yeah, and I guess it 185 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: does come to like, you know, Aries is the very 186 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: nature and heart of war and violence, where Mars is 187 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: more like what what use can war be put to? 188 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: What does it? What does it do? What can it accomplish? Uh? 189 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: You know, very much a whitewashing of war. Now, as 190 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: with Jupiter that we you know, which we discussed in 191 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: our recent episode, Mars has many epithets or aspects um 192 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: So instead of having you know, a whole bunch of 193 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: different deities representing different shades of the same thing, you 194 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: have different versions of, say Jupiter, and in this case, 195 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: there are different versions of Mars as well, such as 196 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: Mars grativ Us, the marching Mars. So this would be 197 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: the Mars that a soldier in the field would swear 198 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: by because you know, as with Jupiter, deities are important 199 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: for swearing and making oaths and so forth. Another major 200 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: Mars is is Mars Pader, protector of agriculture. And this, 201 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: of course is is literally Mars the Father. And this 202 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: is also very notable because in Roman myth he is 203 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: the father. Uh, Mars is the father of Romulus and Remus, 204 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: the twin founders of Rome. So in the Roman tradition, 205 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: Mars isn't just the god of of noble war. He 206 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: is also the ancestor of the Roman people. He is 207 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: the patriarch of the empire exactly. Yeah, so he yeah, 208 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: he is the empire. Um. Now this is this is 209 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: where it gets kind of curious, right, And I imagine 210 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: a number of people are already thinking about this. So, 211 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: in the Roman tradition, the primary war god Mars has 212 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: two highly important sons, Romulus and Remus. So wouldn't it 213 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: make more sense to name the two moons of Mars 214 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: after Romulus and Remus, rather than going to the Greek 215 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: topping over to the Greek tradition and drawing on the 216 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: two uh, two of the sons of Aries. Wouldn't that 217 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: imply that one of the moon's has to kill the 218 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: other moon. Um. Well, you know, as we'll get into 219 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: in this episode of the next that's not a crazy 220 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: idea considering the House of Mars over there. Orbitally speaking, 221 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: I may be remembering my mythology wrong. I think things 222 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: go bad for Remus. Well, um, it's worth worth noting. 223 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: Outside of Star trek Lore, Romulus is the outer moon 224 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: of the main Belt asteroid eighties seven Sylvia, and Remus 225 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: is the inner moon. Sylvia is named for Rea Sylvia, 226 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: the mythical mother of the founders of Rome. Uh So 227 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: it's you know, kind of this was all filled in later. Well, 228 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: while while we're doing a round up, I should also 229 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: mention that that passage from the Iliad I read at 230 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: the top that had that great couplet about airis the 231 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: goddess of strife. Uh There is actually an object name 232 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: for Airess as well. It's the dwarf planet Eiress that 233 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: is not quite a planet, but is a nearly nearly 234 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: spherical asteroid. Yeah. I guess it's a Basically, we're just 235 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: gonna keep finding new things to name. Uh So, if 236 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: you're if you're out there, any members of the Greek 237 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: Roman pantheon and you don't have something named after you yet, 238 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: just hold on, just be patient, um and mortal beings 239 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: that you are, We'll get around to you eventually. Wait 240 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: a second, I feel like I just said something wrong. 241 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: I think I called Aris an asteroid as uh, Airis 242 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: is not an asteroid. Airis is a nearly spherical trans 243 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: Neptunian object. Apologies about that. You're apologizing to the planet 244 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: or the deity. I don't want to be roped in 245 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: by strife here, want to make an enemy of strife, 246 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: all right? So yeah, obviously, instead of naming Mars's two 247 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: moons after rhyming lissen remus Uh the traditions of drawing 248 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: on the names of two of the many children of 249 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: Aries in Greek mythology, so partnered with Aphrodite. He fathered 250 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: Demos Phobos of course, and we'll get into them in 251 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: a second. But also Aros or love Uh Andros requitted 252 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: love and Harmonia, who represents harmony. And he's also said 253 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: to have produced other children by other mothers. So there's 254 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's a vast brood. Now I 255 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: believe Aries. Uh. Isn't it the case that Aphrodity was 256 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: actually married to have faced Us the forge god the 257 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: the equivalent of the Roman vulcan, and that Aries is 258 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: sort of her lover on the side or are they 259 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: officially an item later on? There's a lot of drama there, Like, 260 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: I don't have to recall a myth about have faced 261 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: us making like a net of chains to catch them 262 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: in the act or something. Yeah, I mean it fits 263 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: the nature of Aries again, he's he's really the scum 264 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: of the pantheon here um. But let's talk a bit 265 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: about the twins Demos and Phobos, both deities very much 266 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: in the Greek tradition of war gods. While Demos is 267 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: traditionally associated with terror and dread, Phobos is fear and panic, 268 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: though both of them may be collectively thought of as 269 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: deities of fear. Uh. They ride beside their father and 270 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: battle along with the goddess of discord Heiress so who 271 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: he mentioned already. But the twin brothers of Fear are 272 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: referred to in several key works. We already mentioned the Iliad. 273 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: They also show up in Hesiods, the Shield of Heracles 274 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: and um if if memory serves, I think in the 275 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: Shield of Heracles they actually like their their father is 276 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,239 Speaker 1: wounded on the battlefield and they drag him off the battlefield, 277 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: So they're very much his his attendance, his personal guard, 278 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: the warriors that go into battle beside him. Um. But 279 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: they are also just horrifying specters, you know, they are 280 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: gods of trauma and the psychological dimensions of war. Um. 281 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: But they do seem to revolve around their father on 282 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: the battlefield in a way befitting of moons. So perhaps 283 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: they're ultimately a better fit, uh than the Roman figures 284 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: of Romulus and Remus. Yeah, I would say that. I mean, 285 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: I think one thing that's interesting about them is that 286 00:16:55,200 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: they represent two distinct types of fear that are things 287 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: that you need to manage differently if you're writing horror fiction, 288 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: say like that Phobos Phobos is is panic. Phobos is 289 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: sometimes translated as route, right, like getting routed in battle. 290 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: You're just like, you know, you're terrified and you're running away, 291 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: whereas Demos is dread, the terror that builds in anticipation 292 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: of of something horrible. Yeah. Yeah, so uh, And I 293 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: also think it's probably more fitting because rome Elis and 294 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: Remus are a little more they're a little more fleshed 295 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,239 Speaker 1: out as as figures, whereas Demos and Phobos are a 296 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,479 Speaker 1: bit more abstract, you know, like we don't have as 297 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: many tales about them and stories about them that that uh, 298 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, that stick with us. They are more you know, 299 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: harshly formed they are, and then that they themselves are 300 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: these kind of like fragile, fractured nightmare beings. Um. And 301 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: I think that's very befitting of the sort of moons 302 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: that we're going to be talking about in these episodes. Sorry, 303 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: one thing I just got distracted wondering about. Wait a minute, 304 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: are are the moons of Mars especially scary as moons? 305 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: Not in the way that I can think of, but 306 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: they are rather mysterious. I think they are some of 307 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: the weirdest, most mysterious objects in the Solar system. You 308 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: can sort of looking at it sideways. Connect that sense 309 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: of mystery to a kind of creepiness about them. Yeah, 310 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I would. I would say that 311 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: less frightening as more just like, yeah, mysterious, and also 312 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: like you know, clearly the product of violence, and in 313 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: the case of one of the moons, like you know, 314 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: just destined for destruction is just on a on a 315 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: collision course with destruction. Um, you know, and uh, I 316 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: think it pairs well with this idea of like two 317 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: shattered beings that serve this horrible god they you know, 318 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: that represents some of the worst aspects of of mortals 319 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: except in immortal form um. So yeah, I will come 320 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: back throughout these episodes with comparisons to the mythic twins, 321 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: the double Grima worm tongues of the Mars system. Yeah, yeah, 322 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: imagine there's some other good comparisons to make. Yeah, like 323 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, the sons of some you know, awful ruler. 324 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: There might be a good Dune reference in there somewhere. 325 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Oh, I see, like they're the beast 326 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: Ribon and uh and fade Rouph the Yeah, though I 327 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: don't know. Fate has a lot of things together in 328 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: ways that these these two don't, so I'm not sure. 329 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: Thank you. All right, Well, let's talk about the discovery 330 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: of phobos and demos. Like we said, Mars has been 331 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: something that people throughout human history have looked up and 332 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: seen and attributed various meanings and interpretations too, But not 333 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: so with phobos and demos. Uh, these were not to 334 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: be discovered for some time. Right, you have to get 335 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: well into the age of the telescope to be able 336 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: to see these objects from Earth because they are both 337 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: very small and very close to Mars, and when you're 338 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: looking at Mars in the night sky, it's reflecting a 339 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: lot of light and it's sort of going to blast 340 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: out any small objects nearby it. You're just not going 341 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: to be able to distinguish them from it. Yeah, So 342 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: it just simply wasn't possible. Um. They these two moons 343 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: were discovered though, in eighteen seventy seven by American astronomer 344 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: ASoft Hall, who lived eighty nine through nineteen oh seven. Now, 345 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: Hall was was large as an interesting character because, for 346 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: one thing, he was largely a self taught astronomer. He 347 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: was not a gentleman scientist of the day, but rather 348 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: the impoverished son of a clockmaker. His father died when 349 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: he was young, so he had to leave school uh 350 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: in order to be He was going to become an 351 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 1: apprentice to a carpenter, but later on he ended up 352 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: taking math classes at New York Central College, and from 353 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: there he took a job at the Harvard College Observatory 354 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: and then became an assistant astronomer at the US Naval Observatory, 355 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: and eventually he was made a professor, So he had 356 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: a really interesting career path, you know, an ascension story. 357 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: So uh, you know, on one hand, it's it's just 358 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: neat to see that kind of trajectory with an individual 359 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: who plays into the history of astronomy like this. So 360 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: the way it went down is in eighteen seventy seven, 361 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: during Mars Closest approach, his wife, Angeline Stickney, who was 362 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: a mathematician and a suffragists, encouraged him to engage in 363 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: the search for the Martian moons and and to keep 364 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: engaging in the search because he had been his writings. 365 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: He apparently a loses this saying, well, you know, there's 366 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: just seemed to be so such a small chance of 367 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: him seeing anything. Um, you know, he was considering just 368 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: giving it up, but his wife encouraged him on and 369 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: so he thought he made out Martian moons on August tenth, 370 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: but he couldn't be sure. You know, it was I 371 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: think the weather was weird that night, so he didn't 372 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: have the clarity that he wanted. But then on August 373 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: twelve he discovered Demos, and on August eighteenth he discovered Phobos. 374 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: Both both of these discoveries were made using equipment at 375 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: the U. S. Naval Observatory in Washington, d C. Interesting now, 376 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: since he found them, he got to name them, But 377 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, there's not much more 378 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: to it than that. I don't you know, I couldn't 379 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: find anything about him having any real reasoning for choosing 380 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: these two names over Romulus and Remus. Uh, if he 381 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: ever considered other names, if he if he named them 382 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: in an error, I don't know. Um. I think ultimately 383 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: they're good names, though, just really scared that night he'd 384 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: been reading some ec comics or what would be correct 385 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: for the time period he was reading the Great God 386 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: Pan or whatever. Actually, I don't know if that was 387 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: out of the time. I mean, ultimately he you know, 388 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: he could have tried to call them Tweedle dumb and 389 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: tweedledd So I guess it's just as well that he 390 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: went with the Phobos and Demos. Now, this is an 391 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: interesting little side note. I can't find a what felt 392 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: to me like a really solid source on this, but 393 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: a profile of his wife, Stickney on the official U. S. 394 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: Navy page used to state that as she was helping 395 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: her husband with the calculations and all of this, she 396 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: asked for a man's wages compensation, and he refused, so 397 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: she quit. Um, oh yeah, I think you know, it's 398 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: not like it's really hard to say. I couldn't find 399 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: any more information about this, So I don't know if 400 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: this is a joke, uh, if this is you know, 401 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: totally made up, or you know, if what we're talking 402 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: about was a serious argument or more of like kind 403 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: of a fun story that you know, that that that 404 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: spouses tell. I don't know. But at the very least, though, 405 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: phobos largest crater ended up being named for her Stickney Crater, 406 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: which we'll get back to in a bit, so you know, 407 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: I guess ultimately her work paid in exposure at least. Now, um, 408 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: others were looking for those moons as well and speculating 409 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: about their existence. And I ran across a really interesting 410 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,959 Speaker 1: story about all this that I read on Stephen Novella's 411 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: neurological blog, and this concerns the moons of Mars and 412 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: Gulliver's travels. Gulliver's travels but Jonathan Swift, Yeah, so that 413 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: would be long before this discuss This would be over 414 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: a hundred years before the discovery of the Moon's right. Yeah, 415 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: this goes bad. This book came on seventy six. And 416 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: have have you ever read Gulliver's travel Yeah, it's been 417 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: a long time. I read it in college. Um, I 418 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: took a class in college, so we read a lot 419 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: of like John Dryden and Alexander Pope and and and 420 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: Swift and uh. I think we read Gulliver's Travels for 421 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: that class, or if not, we read large sections of it. 422 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: It's one that I've never read. I'm just sort of 423 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: familiar with it by bits and pieces that I've absorbed 424 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: through through other sources. Well, So Gulliver's Travels, if you've 425 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: never read it, it's about a it's largely satirical, but 426 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: it's about a sailor who goes to these weird lands 427 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: that end up being sort of humorous portraits of things 428 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: that Swift Swift observed about the world. So they're the 429 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: lily Putians who are tiny. And then I think at 430 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: some point he goes to a place called brobding Nag, 431 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, this full of giants. And then 432 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: he also goes to a place where I don't remember 433 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: the aim of it, but it's the place where the 434 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: Yahoo's are, where the idea of the yah who's comes 435 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: from these like a sort of sort of crass apes. Well. 436 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: At one point in the book, the Lilliputians catch him 437 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: up on things and inform him that quote. They have 438 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: likewise discovered two lesser stars or satellites which revolve around Mars, 439 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: where all the innermost is distant from the center of 440 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: the primary exactly three of his diameters and the outmost five. 441 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: The former revolves in the space of ten hours and 442 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: the later in twenty one and a half. Holy cow, 443 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: that's not that far off. Yeah, and that this is 444 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: what m Novella writes about in this blog post. He 445 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: points out, quote, Phobos and Demos have orbits which are 446 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: about one point four and three point five diameters from 447 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: Mars center, respectively. The lit Houtians gave figures of three 448 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: and five. The periods of Phobos and Demos are seven 449 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: point seven and thirty point three hours, respectively, while while 450 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: the Laputians reported ten and twenty one point five. These 451 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: figures are correct to within an order of magnitude, which 452 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: is another way of saying that they are wrong. They 453 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: are reasonable guesses, obviously, but do not betray any special 454 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: knowledge because basically what he's exploring in this blog post 455 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: is like the question what did Swift know? Like why 456 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: is Swift? Why did Swift get this right? Or sort 457 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: of right or mostly right, depending on how you're you're 458 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: skewing it, Rob, I realized I may have led you 459 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: astray by talking about the Lily Pucians because I think 460 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: there are actually two different things. They're the Lilliputians and 461 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: the Laputans. And I think this is the Laputans okay. 462 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: I think the people of Laputa are on a flying island, 463 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: whereas the Lily Pucians are somewhere else. They're they're the 464 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: people who are tiny compared to our apologies to the 465 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: Laputians and the Lilliputians. Um, yeah, I ended up going 466 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: when you mentioned lily Pucians, I'd up going with them 467 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: because it makes me think of Oliver Sacks talking about 468 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: the Lily Pucians in his book Hallucinations. Oh, I don't 469 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: recall that having to do with like seeing tiny people 470 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: uh as hallucinations sometimes due to I think I can't 471 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: remember that tied into migraines or not. But anyways, book Hallucinations. Well, yeah, 472 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: this is really interesting. So I guess the question is 473 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: like how how close do you have to be in 474 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: guessing stuff like this to to really be impressive. I 475 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: don't know, this seems pretty impressive for not actually knowing anything. Well, 476 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: Novella points out that, first of all, it could just 477 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: be an educated guess um based for starters, on how 478 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: Mercury and Venus have zero moons, Earth has one, and 479 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: then Jupiter and Saturn were known to have many moons. Therefore, 480 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: perhaps two felt about right, you know, like you needed 481 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: something between one and many? Uh so why not too? Yeah? Uh? 482 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: And of course, yeah, you said that it was known 483 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: that these outer planets had many moons, like we've known 484 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: that Jupiter had moons since Galileo. Right, But Novella presents 485 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: another idea that is pretty interesting. Uh And this this 486 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: gets kind of this is a really weird concept of 487 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: because it has to do with uh anagrams and um 488 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: and so forth. But the idea here is that Swift 489 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: may have gotten the notion from Johann Kepler, who concluded 490 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: at one point that Mars had two moons based on 491 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: a misunderstood cryptic anagram the Galileo devised what so basically, 492 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: in Kepler's sixteen ten memoir, he misconstrued this anagram that 493 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: Galileo put together. You know, all these these uh these 494 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: letters that you're supposed to rearrange into their proper form, 495 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: that he had sent his friends announcing the discovery of 496 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 1: Saturn's rings. And instead of getting and I'm not gonna 497 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: read the the original phrase here, but instead of getting 498 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: I have observed the highest most distant planet, Saturn to 499 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: have a triple form, instead he got hale twin companionship 500 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: children of Mars, or I agree you double knob children 501 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: of Mars. I agree you double knob. Sure, that's what 502 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: he was writing. Yeah, so in anyway, that's that's interesting. 503 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: Um Novella also points out that Voltaire also wrote about 504 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: Mars having two moons in the seventeen fifty two book Micromegas. 505 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to read a quote from that quote. But 506 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: let us now return to our travelers. Upon leaving Jupiter, 507 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: they traversed a space of around one hundred million leagues 508 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: and approached the planet Mars, which as we know, is 509 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: five times smaller than our own. They swung by two 510 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: moons that cater to this planet, but have escaped the 511 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: notice of our astronomers. I know very well that father 512 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: Castel will write, perhaps even agreeably enough, against the existence 513 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: of these two moons. But I rely on those who 514 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: reasoned by analogy. These good philosophers know how unlikely it 515 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: would be for Mars so far from the Sun to 516 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: have gotten by with less than two moons. Okay, so 517 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: I this is a work of fiction as well, Yes, yeah, 518 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: and I think of of similar um. I've read Voltaire, 519 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: but not this particular work. But you know, a similar 520 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: satire and fantasy. Well, good job, Jonathan Swift. Yeah, uh yeah, 521 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: so he basically got it right. But anyway that none 522 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: of this has anything, you know, directly to do with 523 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: the nature of Demos and Phobos, but it's it's interesting nonetheless. 524 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: All right, Well, maybe we should talk about some of 525 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: the physical characteristics of Phobos, all right, Yeah, so yeah, 526 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna mostly start with Phobos, and we'll get into 527 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: Demos a bit more in the second episode, as well 528 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: as more stuff about Phobos, because ultimately they are twins 529 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: um and they have a lot in common. So if 530 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: Phobos represents the psyche ravage by war in uh in 531 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: Greek mythology, then it might be fitting, you know, given 532 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: the nature of the moon named after him, because you know, 533 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about a shattered wreck destined to battle its 534 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: father and perish in the conflict. Now, Phobos is the 535 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: larger of Mars's two moons. It is seventeen by fourteen 536 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: by eleven miles or twenty seven by twenty two by 537 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: eighteen kilometers in diameter, and its shape is is pretty irregular. 538 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: It it doesn't look like whatever whatever you're imagining. If 539 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: you haven't seen an image of Phobos, it doesn't look 540 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: like that. It looks more like a space potato. Yeah. 541 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: I've seen people say potato. I would say kind of turnip. 542 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: Or if it is a potato, it's not a Russet potato. 543 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: I think it's more like a Yukon gold. Yeah, it 544 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: doesn't look very spherical. Um. Now, it seems to be 545 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: made of C type rock similar to blackish carbonaceous chondrite asteroids. 546 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: And it is Uh, it's absolutely battle scarred. I mean, 547 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: it's just there are various tracks on it, caused by 548 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: landslides that have occurred, it seems, but it's its surface 549 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: has just been bombarded into dust by impacts. Uh. And 550 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: its largest crater again is named for Stickney, and it 551 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: is UM six point two miles or ten kilometers in 552 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: die ameter, and seems to have been almost violent enough 553 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: to have just destroyed it outright. Yeah, if you're trying 554 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: to picture it in your head, the Stickney Crater is 555 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: so large that it essentially is one side of this moon. Yeah, 556 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: it's uh, yeah, it's just it looks really beat up, 557 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: and it even has these these things that look very 558 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: much like battle scars, like it's been scratched by an 559 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,479 Speaker 1: enormous space cat and these were likely caused by uh, 560 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, various collisions and violence as well. So it's 561 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: just totally beat up. But like the son of a 562 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: brutal war god, it just keeps going on. It's just 563 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: it keeps clinging to life and uh and keeps orbiting. 564 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: It's uh, it's father. It completes three orbits per day 565 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: and uh. And it has also has the tightest orbit 566 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: of any known moon, orbiting at a mere six thousand 567 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: kilometers or three thousand, seven hundred miles. To put that 568 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: in comparison, our moon is two hundred and thirty eight thousand, 569 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: eight hundred and fifty five miles away or three D 570 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: eighty four thousand, four d kilometers away. Yeah, so Phobos 571 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: is really close to the surface of Mars. Demos is 572 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: a good bit farther out, but Phobos. The distance from 573 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: the surface of Mars to Phobos is actually comparable to 574 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: distances between recognizable landmarks on the surface of the Earth, 575 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: Like if there was a road, you could drive from 576 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: Mars to Phobos in a couple of days. Like for comparison, 577 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: Google Maps tells me that the driving distance between Miami 578 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: and Vancouver, so basically, you know, sort of diagonally across 579 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: North America. I mean, not even all the way up 580 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: to Alaska. Uh that's about thirty four hundred miles or 581 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: roughly kilometers, so just a little bit shorter than the 582 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: distance from Mars to Phobos. Phobos is right in there, right. So, 583 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: while we've joked about extraterrestrial skies and how large planets 584 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: sometimes appear in the sky in various movies or works 585 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: of sci fi art if it's like Battle for Indoor 586 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: or basically any location in the video game No Man Sky, 587 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: despite all that, Mars would actually be quite huge in 588 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: the sky of Phobos if you were standing on its surface. 589 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I actually looked this up to see if 590 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: I could find somebody who had done like a scale 591 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: attempt to create that view, and I could not find it. 592 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: Maybe it exists somewhere out there, but yeah, it would 593 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: be absolutely huge, because to look at it from the 594 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: other way, Phobos is, as moons go, extremely tiny. I 595 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: mean it's again, you're looking at like like twentysomething kilometers 596 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 1: in with depending on which side is facing you. Um so, 597 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: so this is much much smaller than moons were familiar with, 598 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: like Earth's moons or like the Earth's single moon. I 599 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: didn't mean to suggest the multiple or the larger moons 600 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: of Jupiter or something like that. But from the surface 601 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: of Mars, Phobos appears relatively large. I think I remember 602 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: reading somewhere that it was it looks about a third 603 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: as big as the Moon usually looks from the surface 604 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 1: of Earth. But it's so much smaller. And the reason 605 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: it looks that big is just how close it is. 606 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: And here's the an added factor to all of this, 607 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: it's getting closer. Uh. Phobos edges closer to Mars at 608 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: a rate of six ft or one point eight meters 609 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: every century, So in fifty million years it will probably 610 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: either crash into Mars or break up and become a 611 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: ring of debris around Mars. I hope it goes the 612 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,959 Speaker 1: ring route. Personally, Yeah, either way, I think I really 613 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: like the mythic synergy of this because I can easily imagine, 614 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: you know, this terror using war god Phoebos just being 615 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: destined to fight his own terrible father and perish one 616 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: way or another in the attempt. You know, you're not 617 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: gonna win, dude. Yeah, but he but he has to, 618 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: like it's his nature, like this is this is what 619 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: he's been been, you know, raised and traumatized to do. 620 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: What else could possibly happen? Now? Of course, given the 621 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: time frame involved here fifty million years, you know, humans 622 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about you know, it's not one 623 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: of these things we're like, oh, we better not try 624 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: and land anything on phoebe Post because it's it's doomed, 625 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: won't you know not, you know, not anytime soon. Um. 626 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: And there have been some proposals that have sought to 627 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: use Phobos as a kind of staging ground for the 628 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: exploration of Mars itself, you know, perhaps for robotics for example. Yeah, 629 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of we can talk more 630 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: about this in the second episode in this series, but 631 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: there are a lot of reasons that Phobos might be 632 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: really a great place to try to stage space missions. 633 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: One reason, for example, is that it would be if 634 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: you're trying to get something back from Mars or to 635 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: another place in the Solar System from Mars, it's much 636 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: easier to get off of Phobos than it is to 637 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: get off of the surface of Mars itself. Yeah, I mean, 638 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's basically it's like a you know, 639 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: it's a it's a space station. Um. Now, Phobos has 640 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: no atmosphere um. And also gravity on Phobos uh is 641 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: is pretty weak. According to NASA quote, Phobos has only 642 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: one one thousandth as much gravitational pull as Earth. A 643 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: one fifty pound or d eight kilogram person would weigh 644 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: two ounces or sixty eight grams there. Um. Yet they 645 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: do point out that NASA's Mars Global Surveyor has shown 646 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: evidence of landslides. You know, we mentioned that that earlier, 647 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: of boulders and dust that's fallen back down to the 648 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: surface after being blasted due to various impacts. So the 649 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: gravity there is in play, but it is, you know, 650 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: it is it is slight compared to the gravity of 651 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: Earth or certainly other uh moons out there, right, Phobos 652 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: is about the mass that if you were to jump 653 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 1: on Phobos, you could jump really high, but you would 654 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: eventually fall back down right now, Like our moon, the 655 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: twins of Mars are both locked with the same face 656 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 1: pointed at their planet. Uh. The day side gets reasonably 657 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: warm from human perspective. I think I saw it compared 658 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: in one NASA document to a a winter day in Chicago, 659 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 1: while the night side gets extremely cold. Though again there's 660 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: no atmosphere. So we're talking about surface temperatures here. Uh, 661 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: you know, there's no air to do anything there. The 662 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: air can't hold the warmth you're just talking about, like 663 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: being blasted by radiation and I guess whatever is radiating 664 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: back up off of the rock beneath your feet than 665 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 1: al right, So in discussing Phobos, we should point out 666 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: as well, and we'll probably get more into this maybe 667 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: in the second episode. Is that as of today, as 668 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: of this recording, no one has actually been to Phobos, 669 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: certainly not in person, but even attempts to send probes 670 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: directly to Phobos have failed for various reasons. The Russians 671 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: made two attempts in the late eighties Phobos one and two. Uh, 672 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: those failed that seemingly, I think for technical reasons, and 673 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: then inn they attempted to send another one um Phobos 674 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: grunt to Phobos. That's spelled fo b O s g 675 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: r u n t in uh the the at least 676 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: the English language Letterally sure it was going to collect 677 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 1: two grams of soil, but that didn't quite work out. Yeah, 678 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: it was a proposed sample return mission. Would have been 679 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: really cool if we could have gotten some of Phobos 680 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: back here to Earth to study. But it failed. I 681 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: think it actually was it failed in orbit before it 682 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: began its journey to Mars and just ended up stuck 683 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: in Earth orbit without the ability to travel. Now, various 684 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: other missions have been proposed and are being considered, but 685 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: nothing is launched as of this recording. But missions to 686 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: Mars have and will continue to capture images of the moons. Uh. 687 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: You know if for starters like once again, it's it's 688 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,839 Speaker 1: fairly visible in the sky if you catch it at 689 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: the right time. So that has been one of the 690 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: ways that we've captured images of it. Also the fly bys. Oh, 691 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: one thing I forgot to mention about Phobos Grunt was 692 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: actually uh, it was a Russian mission, but it was 693 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: also a joint venture with the Chinese Space program, and 694 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,919 Speaker 1: so the Chinese had part part of the mission as well. 695 00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: And then also part of what they were going to 696 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: do was they were going to they had some microorganisms 697 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,479 Speaker 1: aboard and they were going to study how the round 698 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: trip from the from Earth to the moons of Mars 699 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: and then back to Earth affected these microorganisms that were 700 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: on the payload. I think the Planetary Society had us 701 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: had a a small uh experiment that was aboard as well. Yeah, yeah, 702 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: was that the was that the micro organisms that may 703 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: have been actually yes, yeah, but anyday, right, it did 704 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: not come to pass. Uh. So we did not get 705 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: to bring anything back from the surface of Phobos. We 706 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 1: didn't get to have any thing directly investigate the surface 707 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: of Phobos, which is a shame, because there there's some 708 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: interesting features there, to say the least. Oh. Yeah, So 709 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: if we were to begin a curiosity tour of the 710 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: surface of Phobos, I think one of the top things 711 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: to look at would be the Phobos monolith. Monolith. You 712 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: say monolith, I say, so there is a giant rock 713 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: on the surface of Phobos against the relatively smooth cratered background, 714 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: and I mean smooth, not because not because it's like 715 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: a featureless surface. There are many craters, but it's not 716 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: very craggy, if that makes any sense. It is, uh. 717 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: It is kind of dust covered and dimpled, but not 718 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: not not sharp angles. And against this relatively smooth background, 719 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: there is this rock that stands out like a white 720 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: tower in the gray dust, and it shines really bright 721 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: in the sun and it casts this long looming tail 722 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: of shade across the ground behind it. And judging by 723 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: the length of its shadow, some astronomers have estimated that 724 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: this rock is about ninety meters tall or about three 725 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 1: hundred feet, and for this reason, some media outlets describe 726 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: it as building sized. I guess that's reasonable if it's 727 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: like three feet tall, it's like a small office building. 728 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: But you're you're you're also bringing to mind certain ideas 729 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: about what it might be when you say it's building sized, yes, 730 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: And that's like if I would have say, where it's 731 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: giant robot size. Yeah. Uh. So this rock has come 732 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: to be known as the Phobos Monolith, and it is 733 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: one of the geologic features of our solar system that 734 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: is genuinely exquisitely interesting, but you know, like so many others, 735 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: in many cases, appreciated for all the wrong reasons. Uh. 736 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: The the it's aliens crowd loves this rock, now, why 737 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: would that be. Well, a major point of departure here 738 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: seems to be originally a c SPAN clip, which is 739 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: not where you might expect, you know, sort of conspiracy 740 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: minded ideas to originate from c SPAN. You generally pretty uh, 741 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: pretty dry and pretty by the numbers. Yeah, I oh, 742 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: I like c SPAN And actually I would say there's 743 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with this clip. It's just people misinterpreting a 744 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: clip or selectively quoting from a clip. So this originally 745 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: I think aired in July of two thousand nine, that's 746 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: at least when the version I found was uploaded. But 747 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: in this clip, the revered American ast not buzz Aldren, who, 748 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: of course, along with the Alarmstrong, was one of the 749 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: first two human beings to walk on the Moon that 750 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: was during the Apollo eleven landing in nineteen sixty nine. 751 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: He is being interviewed on the c SPAN program Washington Journal, 752 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: and I believe this was in the context of originally 753 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: talking about human colonization of Earth's Moon, but Aldrin starts 754 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: talking about the general impetus for exploration of looking at 755 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: things that people find curious or inspiring about the about 756 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: the Solar system at large, and using that sort of 757 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: like public rapture about strange and interesting features of the 758 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: Solar system to to motivate scientific exploration of them, as 759 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: opposed to just say returning to the moon exclusively. And 760 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: Aldrin says, quote, we should go boldly where man has 761 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 1: not gone before. Fly by the comets, visit asteroids, visit 762 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: the moon of Mars. There's a monolith. They're a very 763 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: unusual structure on this little potato shaped object that goes 764 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: around Mars once in seven hours. When people find out 765 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: about that, they're gonna say, who put that there? Who 766 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: put that there? Now, it seems like when the alien 767 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: websites clipped this out, they stopped the quote right there 768 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 1: and then they, you know, slap a headline on it 769 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: like buzz alder and let's slip the alien conspiracy. Of course, 770 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: the next thing Aldern says is, well, the universe put 771 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,439 Speaker 1: it there, or if you choose, God put it there. 772 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: And then he moves on to other topics. You can 773 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: look this clip up yourself, so obviously Aldern is not 774 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: alleging that this monolith is of artificial origin. He's not 775 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: only not alleging that he's explicitly saying the exact opposite, 776 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: it is of natural origin. But of course that's not 777 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 1: going to stop the usual suspects from using this clip 778 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: as evidence of the alien cover up conspiracy. Uh. And 779 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: so of course, the the Internet's favorite hoax hype man 780 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: and general disinformation source, Alex Jones, has it several times 781 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: tried to suggest that buzz Aldren might be saying he 782 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: believes it was made by aliens, like uh during a 783 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: two thousand nine interview, And that might actually be the 784 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: weirdest thing here is that Alex Jones actually did do 785 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: an interview with buzz Aldren in two thousand nine. I 786 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,800 Speaker 1: guess at the time nobody really knew who Alex Jones was. 787 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,479 Speaker 1: But during this interview, Jones tried to suggest that buzz 788 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 1: Aldren might believe that this monolith was made by aliens. 789 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: And in a more recent clip, I found Jones is 790 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: saying that Aldren actually told him in that two thousand 791 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 1: nine interview that the Phobos monolith was quote sending a 792 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: transmission and quote it's all Egypt. There's aliens and everything else. 793 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: It's all Egypt. Yeah, it's all Egypt. There's aliens and 794 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,440 Speaker 1: everything else. And I saw that, I was like, what 795 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: what could he even be referring to? Like, I didn't 796 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: believe that Aldren had actually said that, but I wonder, like, 797 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: what's he basing this claim on. So I said, what 798 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: the heck, I'll actually look it up, and the result 799 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: was hilarious. So again, the weirdest thing about this to 800 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: me is that at some point Alex Jones actually did 801 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: interview the second person to walk on the Moon. Um. 802 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: But so in the interview he does ask Aldern about this, 803 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: and Aldrin says the exact opposite of what Jones claims. 804 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: So Jones asks him, while, if I'm not mistaken, I 805 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: think showing him a picture of the wrong object. I 806 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: think he's showing him a picture of an object from 807 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: the surface of Mars. But he says, what does this 808 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: look like to you? And Aldrin responds he says, it's 809 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: a big, big, tall rock. Now I can say, maybe 810 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: it looks like a crude construction device by some creatures 811 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: who practiced on Phobos and then landed in Egypt and 812 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 1: built the pyramids, and then he starts laughing and says, 813 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 1: I don't really believe that, but some people are liable 814 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: to think that. So Aldrin is making fun of and 815 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: then explicitly rejecting the claim that Jones attributes to him. 816 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 1: Not only did he not say what Jones claims, he 817 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: says literally exactly the opposite. This is interesting. Yeah, it's 818 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:03,880 Speaker 1: a real real cherry picking of you know. Yeah, like 819 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: like he's saying, I'm not saying it's aliens at all, 820 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,279 Speaker 1: it's actually this, but he's but then it's like he 821 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: said the word aliens in the sentence, so he's basically 822 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 1: saying it's aliens. Well, the claim that Jones is referring 823 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: to their is Aldrin making fun of people like Alex Jones. 824 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,320 Speaker 1: He's saying, like, you know, I could say that the 825 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: this was aliens practicing building the pyramids, and you know, 826 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 1: you have to admit, like that idea, even though it 827 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: raises additional questions, is a fantastic idea and you should 828 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: see why people would be drawn to it and wanted 829 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: to be true. I mean, what does it mean? What 830 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 1: what would it mean for ancient Egypt? What would it 831 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 1: mean for life in our solar system. It brings so 832 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: many sort of vague, half form but promising science fiction 833 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: ideas to mind. I have so many funny questions about 834 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: So here's one random thought. If there were actually a 835 00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 1: conspiracy to cover up the existence of an alien office 836 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 1: building or a practice pyramid on the surface of Phobos, 837 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: why would buzz Aldren know about it? Like, do you 838 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: all retired astronauts just get a regular digest of the 839 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,880 Speaker 1: alien cover up? You know, like they get a dossier 840 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,879 Speaker 1: every week. It's like, here's all the alien evidence we've 841 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: covered up in the past quarter. Well, I was thinking 842 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,960 Speaker 1: about this a little bit. On one hand, Yeah, this 843 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: kind of the loose idea that well, they were they 844 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:28,320 Speaker 1: were part of the space exploration system, you know, so 845 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,280 Speaker 1: perhaps they have privileged information or they've been to space, 846 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: so maybe they know about space, but you know, in 847 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 1: secret ways. But then I also was thinking, well, maybe 848 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: this goes back, Maybe this is deeper, like maybe this 849 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: connects to a lot of our mythological ideas about people 850 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: who are you know, taken up that ascend into heaven 851 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,799 Speaker 1: you know, so here is, or or have descended into 852 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,399 Speaker 1: the underworld. So here is a case where someone has 853 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:58,360 Speaker 1: literally traveled to what you could easily classify as another world. 854 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,360 Speaker 1: They have traveled on our world to another and returned. 855 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's amazing, don't get me wrong. Uh. 856 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: You know, the the lunar missions were incredible technological achievements 857 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 1: and and achievements of just a human courage and ingenuity. Uh, 858 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: but they were not other worldly journeys. But I wonder 859 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,960 Speaker 1: if the two you know, become uh you know, wound 860 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,320 Speaker 1: together in the sort of the collective imagination like you know, 861 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: I had to I had with in the you know, 862 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 1: the time or two that we've been around astronauts or 863 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: spoken to an astronaut, it has entered my mind like 864 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: this person has left the Earth. You know. It's like 865 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: in in a not in a you know, I you know, 866 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,120 Speaker 1: I know that I'm I'm talking to an accomplished human 867 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,480 Speaker 1: being when we're doing this, But there's there's a part 868 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: of me that is like this person's maybe not completely 869 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: human anymore, Like they're not completely of Earth because they 870 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,320 Speaker 1: have left Earth, you know, you know, in an you know, 871 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: like unformed way. This bipedal primate like me has been 872 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: touched by the gods. Now, so I wonder if you know, 873 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 1: to some extent we were sort of hardwired to make 874 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,640 Speaker 1: those connections due to our our myths and our you know, 875 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 1: our religious um stories, et cetera. Oh yeah, I mean 876 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:17,879 Speaker 1: I can see that tendency. I mean again, I think 877 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:19,919 Speaker 1: with this kind of thing, the logic is very loose. 878 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,920 Speaker 1: And on one hand, I mean, I would say with 879 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,400 Speaker 1: somebody like Alex Jones, I mean, he just this is 880 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: just a person with a propensity to spread lies. But 881 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: I would say, as for the the broader, uh tenacity 882 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: of this misunderstanding about this object on the surface of Phobos, 883 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,839 Speaker 1: I think maybe part of the misunderstanding might just come 884 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,799 Speaker 1: from the word monolith. This would tie back to back 885 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,520 Speaker 1: into the idea you brought up when I was first 886 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: introducing the subject about calling it building sized, which I mean, 887 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,480 Speaker 1: I guess it is also calling it a monolith. I mean, 888 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,840 Speaker 1: this object does appear to be a monolith. That is 889 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,839 Speaker 1: a literally accurate description. It's a single piece of rock. 890 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,880 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, by its association with two thousand one of 891 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: Space Odyssey, that word now has some baggage, you know 892 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: of of associations with artificial origin. Of course, there are 893 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 1: tons of natural monoliths on Earth. The world is full 894 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 1: of them. But when you say monolith, I think especially 895 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: in anybody who's who's ever seen a science fiction film 896 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 1: or anything that has any derivative of science fiction has 897 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 1: has a certainly a way of two thousand and one 898 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: of Space Odyssey, and so you think of the monolith, right. 899 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 1: So if that's causing confusion for you, you could just 900 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,160 Speaker 1: say the huge rock on Phobos. Uh. But anyway, whether 901 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: or not you would expect a retired astronaut to have 902 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,160 Speaker 1: any special insight on this subject, it is absolutely false 903 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,279 Speaker 1: that Aldrin claimed that Phobos the Phobos monolith was of 904 00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,799 Speaker 1: artificial origin. He said the exact opposite. So that leads 905 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,400 Speaker 1: to the question what is its real origin? And I 906 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 1: found a good article on the BBC from Steen by 907 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: Colin Barriss that tried to look into this question. Okay, 908 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: so given that there's this huge, weird king boulder jutting 909 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,759 Speaker 1: up out of the surface of Phobos, where did it 910 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,279 Speaker 1: come from? Well, again, according to our best images, the 911 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,640 Speaker 1: monolith does appear to be some kind of giant boulder. 912 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: It's about ninety ms or roughly three hundred feet tall, 913 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,360 Speaker 1: as I said, and it's on a surface region of 914 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,920 Speaker 1: Phobos that is otherwise uh, free of large craggy features 915 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,239 Speaker 1: like this. I was trying to communicate exactly what I 916 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,520 Speaker 1: meant when I smooth isn't quite the right word, because 917 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 1: it has all these craters and dimples in it. But 918 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,240 Speaker 1: the craters and everything look relatively I don't know, rounded, 919 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: as as the surfaces of dusty objects in space often do. 920 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,719 Speaker 1: And this thing looks I guess you would say, the 921 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:46,240 Speaker 1: angles appear uncharacteristically sharp. So imagine a you know, office 922 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: building sized boulder in the middle of a field in 923 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: Kansas that otherwise has some kind of big soft craters 924 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,239 Speaker 1: in it. Now, the Phobos monolith has not really been 925 00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,840 Speaker 1: the subject of much high profile scientific study, but it 926 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,200 Speaker 1: seems consistent with surface features that are produced by normal 927 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: natural processes on the surface of moons and planets. So 928 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,359 Speaker 1: this could be a giant boulder that fell off of, say, 929 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: the edge of a crater in a in a rock 930 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,839 Speaker 1: slide or something like that. And Furthermore, there is pretty 931 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,759 Speaker 1: clear evidence that whatever Phobos itself is, it has at 932 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: various points in the past experienced asteroid impacts, so the 933 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: monolith could also be a giant shard of rock that 934 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,000 Speaker 1: was ejected from some past impact. But then Barris draws 935 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,880 Speaker 1: attention to another really interesting option, which is that the 936 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:42,320 Speaker 1: Phobos monolith could also possibly be a chunk of Mars itself, 937 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,719 Speaker 1: and as as evidence of this, he points to the 938 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,480 Speaker 1: precedent of a study by Kenneth R. Ramsley and James W. Head, 939 00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,760 Speaker 1: the third published in the journal Planetary and Space Science 940 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,279 Speaker 1: in two thousand thirteen called Mars Impact Ejecta in the 941 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: Regular I of Phobos Bulk Concentration and Distribution. Basically, the 942 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,920 Speaker 1: idea is that the surface of Phobos is blanketed in 943 00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,719 Speaker 1: little bits of Mars, and I think mostly these would 944 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: just be very small particles, but they could include larger particles. 945 00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,279 Speaker 1: And the author's estimate, based on some calculations that the 946 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,680 Speaker 1: bulk concentration of Mars ejective fragments in the upper Phobos 947 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: regular is about two hundred and fifty parts per millions. 948 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: So if you're looking at the stuff on the surface 949 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,840 Speaker 1: of Phobos, about two hundred and fifty parts per million 950 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,360 Speaker 1: of that stuff is actually stuff that's from the planet Mars. 951 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,400 Speaker 1: And this again would come from uh from impacts, like 952 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: the majority of it is going to be smaller particles. 953 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 1: But when objects strike the surface of Mars with high energy, 954 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,800 Speaker 1: bits of Mars sometimes get blasted into orbit, and some 955 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,160 Speaker 1: of those bits are going to end up settling on 956 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,040 Speaker 1: the surface of Phobos. And of course this brings us 957 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,120 Speaker 1: back again to what we were talking about earlier. Remember 958 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,600 Speaker 1: that Phobos orbits very close to the surface of Mars 959 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,200 Speaker 1: compared to most moons, so you can imagine and that 960 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,440 Speaker 1: is easier for parts of Mars to end up on 961 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:05,799 Speaker 1: the surface of Phobos than it would be for parts 962 00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:07,360 Speaker 1: of the surface of a planet to end up on 963 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: a moon that's orbiting much farther away. But Barris mentions 964 00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,360 Speaker 1: another possibility, writing quote alternatively, the Phobos monolith might not 965 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,080 Speaker 1: have formed during an impact. It could be a rare 966 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 1: chunk of the Moon's solid bedrock poking up through a 967 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 1: surface that is otherwise mostly strewn with loose debris. So 968 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,480 Speaker 1: imagine that kind of a Devil's tower of Phobos like 969 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,640 Speaker 1: poking up out of where everything else around it has 970 00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,960 Speaker 1: is covered with enough dust to look pretty smooth. And 971 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,560 Speaker 1: Barris writes that if this is true, if it's you know, 972 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,080 Speaker 1: some some feature of the underlying rock of Phobos, if 973 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,440 Speaker 1: it's a Devil's tower kind of thing. Uh. If this 974 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,840 Speaker 1: is true, studying the monolith could actually help us solve 975 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,480 Speaker 1: some of the mysteries about the origin of Phobos, like 976 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 1: where did these strange moons come from in the first place, 977 00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,360 Speaker 1: which I guess maybe we'll come back to at the 978 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 1: beginning of part two of this series. But just a 979 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,759 Speaker 1: couple of other notes about the Phobos A with one 980 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,879 Speaker 1: is that it looks really cool and you should look 981 00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,319 Speaker 1: it up, but source your images carefully. I was coming 982 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,080 Speaker 1: across a lot of photos on the web that seem 983 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,320 Speaker 1: to be labeled as if they are the Phobos monolith, 984 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,200 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure they're not. Some of them just 985 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,320 Speaker 1: look like they're from a movie or something, and I 986 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,840 Speaker 1: think others are pictures of things that are actually on 987 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,239 Speaker 1: the surface of Mars itself. But then one other thing 988 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: I found out was that Less Claypool and sean On 989 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,759 Speaker 1: O Lennon have an album that is named after the 990 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,080 Speaker 1: Phobos Monolith. Rob, I sent you a link. Did you 991 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,320 Speaker 1: have a chance to listen or not. I have not 992 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:33,879 Speaker 1: had a chance to listen to it yet. I haven't 993 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,759 Speaker 1: heard any of Claypool stuff with with Oh no, I've I'm, 994 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,400 Speaker 1: of course I'm familiar with Primus and nfccen Primus Live, 995 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm familiar with his work with uh with 996 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:50,000 Speaker 1: with Trey Anastasio in Oyster Head. Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah, 997 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,239 Speaker 1: that some some good stuff there too, But no, I haven't. 998 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,239 Speaker 1: I haven't heard Phobos Monolith. Well, I only got to 999 00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,840 Speaker 1: listen to a little bit, but it is very weird, 1000 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:00,920 Speaker 1: but with less of the cheese real related humor that 1001 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: you associate with older less claypool works. It seems a 1002 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,040 Speaker 1: little a little more sober perhaps, uh and actually a 1003 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,719 Speaker 1: little a little more sober, and has some relatively scientifically 1004 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: accurate lyrics. I can't vouch for the whole thing, but 1005 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,360 Speaker 1: the part I was listening to was talking about the 1006 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: Phobos monolith and Buzz altern and I think everything that 1007 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,439 Speaker 1: it said about the everything I recall it saying about 1008 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:27,880 Speaker 1: the monolith and the moon was scientifically correct. Quote the 1009 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,080 Speaker 1: monolith of Phobos, it stars buzz in the eye, It 1010 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: bids him question while we live and do or die? Okay, 1011 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:40,240 Speaker 1: checks out. Wait, wait, that's not the part I was thinking. 1012 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,880 Speaker 1: Maybe that went by me. I remember him talking about 1013 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,600 Speaker 1: he had some part about the moon being sort of 1014 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,680 Speaker 1: tat or shaped, which seems reasonable, even though we maybe 1015 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,600 Speaker 1: turnip is better. And I think he also mentioned that 1016 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 1: its orbit is decaying over time, so it's moving closer 1017 00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,040 Speaker 1: to Mars, which is true. Yeah. Yeah, Well the next 1018 00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,800 Speaker 1: two lines are the monolith of Phobos, it stars buzz 1019 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,440 Speaker 1: and the I on a tator shaped moon that's falling 1020 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,960 Speaker 1: from the sky. Okay, so that's that's that's more accurate. Yeah, 1021 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,200 Speaker 1: And and then there's also some part about it like it. 1022 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't say it's aliens. It just says that like 1023 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,919 Speaker 1: the monolith raises a bunch of questions, which is true. 1024 00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,160 Speaker 1: It does raise questions. It some genuine and scientific uh, 1025 00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,680 Speaker 1: others not so much. Um, but but yeah, still, I 1026 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,200 Speaker 1: mean it's it is something like the monolith of Phobos 1027 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 1: is real. As we've said, Uh, you just need to 1028 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:32,080 Speaker 1: be be careful about what image you're you're pulling up 1029 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: of it and uh and what interpretation you're reading regarding it. Now. 1030 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,720 Speaker 1: As we've mentioned already, one of the biggest mysteries about 1031 00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,400 Speaker 1: Phobos and Demos is where these moons come from in 1032 00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,640 Speaker 1: the first place, What is their origin, because they have 1033 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,040 Speaker 1: a number of features that seem to be at least 1034 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,400 Speaker 1: on the surface level, contradictory and point off in different 1035 00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 1: directions when you're looking for an origin story. And I 1036 00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:57,960 Speaker 1: think maybe that's where we should start when we come 1037 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: back in part two, where do these moon come from? 1038 00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,240 Speaker 1: And how were they made? Yeah? So so join us. 1039 00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:07,880 Speaker 1: Will also be some some at least from today's standpoint, 1040 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:12,880 Speaker 1: kind of out there sounding hypotheses about about what what 1041 00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,120 Speaker 1: what these moons are. Uh so it'll be it'll be fun. 1042 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,440 Speaker 1: So join us. In our next episode of Stuff to 1043 00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,720 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is we continue our exploration of Phobos 1044 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,840 Speaker 1: and demos the moons of Mars. In the meantime, if 1045 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:27,680 Speaker 1: you would like to check out other episodes of Stuff 1046 00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:29,640 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, you know where to find them. 1047 00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 1: Core episodes come out Tuesdays and Thursdays in the Stuff 1048 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 1: to Bow Your Mind podcast feed. Monday's we do a 1049 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:39,120 Speaker 1: bit of listener mail. Wednesdays that's when we do the artifact. 1050 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,600 Speaker 1: On Friday's we do a little weird house cinema where 1051 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 1: we we set most of the science aside and just 1052 00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,480 Speaker 1: talk about a weird movie. And on the weekend we 1053 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,240 Speaker 1: do a little bit of uh a little vault episode. 1054 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,200 Speaker 1: We do a little rerun for you. So that's what 1055 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,520 Speaker 1: six days out of seven and on the seventh day 1056 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,240 Speaker 1: we rest or, we run an ad sometimes, you know, 1057 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,800 Speaker 1: we we get ready for the first day again. Yes, 1058 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,160 Speaker 1: all right, huge, thanks as always to our wonderful audio 1059 01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,120 Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 1060 01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,280 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 1061 01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,760 Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or 1062 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:16,760 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 1063 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:27,080 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 1064 01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,640 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 1065 01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,480 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 1066 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.