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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Sunday, September twenty first,

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Speaker 2: and I am Courtney Armstrong. I'm joined as always by

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Speaker 2: crime analysts Body Movin. Beloved Stephanie Lydecker is out this evening,

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Speaker 2: but we are lucky enough to be joined by Joseph

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 3: He is the iconic forensic expert.

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Speaker 2: He is the host of the Bodybags podcast, and he

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Speaker 2: is here for another scientific Sunday.

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Speaker 3: So welcome Joseph.

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Speaker 4: Hey, I'm fortunate enough to be with you. Guys.

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Speaker 5: There you get flatter us my favorite night the week ago.

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Speaker 2: Our amen and listen. It's a good Sunday. We have

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Speaker 2: a stacked night of headlines tonight. We're going to be

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Speaker 2: discussing the forensics and the emerging theories of the singer

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Speaker 2: David's shocking case. This has been coming out sort of

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Speaker 2: slowly over the course of ten plus days, and as

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Speaker 2: more and more information comes forth, it becomes messier and messier. Plus,

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Speaker 2: could Travis Decker's remains finally have been found. There have

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Speaker 2: been a few false starts in this heroic manhunt, but

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Speaker 2: we'll have an update on that, and later in the show,

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Speaker 2: we're going to have some new information. It's about a

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Speaker 2: mysterious death that took place at this year's Burning Man.

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Speaker 3: We spoke a bit about it before.

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Speaker 2: There is now more information, but I think first we

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Speaker 2: should get into this David case. It really has just

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Speaker 2: blown up and we started covering it on September eighth,

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Speaker 2: where all we knew was there was a body in

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Speaker 2: a car registered to David.

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Speaker 3: So body, can you sort of lay the landscape.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, give a little background on this on this you know,

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Speaker 5: developing story. So police served a search warrant at a

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Speaker 5: Hollywood Hills home a tied to the singer David. They

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Speaker 5: seized evidence and they're pursuing leads after the body of

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Speaker 5: fifteen year old Celeste Revs Hernandez was found in the

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Speaker 5: trunk or do we say trunk or frunk when it

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Speaker 5: comes to is understanding. So Tesla's their trunk is in

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Speaker 5: the front of the car, right like kind of like

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Speaker 5: the old Bugs right, the Volksbega bugs. So it was

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Speaker 5: found in the in the fronk of his tesla. So

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Speaker 5: Celesti's reported missing from Mike Elsoner, California, on April fifth,

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty four. Her remains were discovered on September eighth,

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty five, just last a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 5: now wrapped in a bag in the front truck of

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Speaker 5: David's tesla after neighbors reported a foul order. It got

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Speaker 5: impounded and it sat at the impound lot for a

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Speaker 5: few days and there was a foul order coming from it,

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Speaker 5: and you know, they came out and investigated and found

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Speaker 5: her body. It's just awful. So David, he's a musician,

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Speaker 5: if you don't know, he's a musician, and he was

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Speaker 5: on his current world tour withered and that started August

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Speaker 5: fifth in del Mar, California. So they took out computer,

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Speaker 5: some electronics and other items. We don't know exactly everything

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Speaker 5: that they took yet, right, this is an ongoing investigation,

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Speaker 5: so they're being kind of tight lipped about it. But

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Speaker 5: because we have the wonderful Joseph Scott Morgan here and

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Speaker 5: this was a body found in a trunk. What a

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Speaker 5: good opportunity for us to talk. I mean, this is

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Speaker 5: a horrific situation and maybe we can get some comfort

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Speaker 5: and some knowledge out of Joseph Scott Morgan and maybe

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Speaker 5: some answers that we just don't have yet by looking

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Speaker 5: at these forensics. Right. So that's what we're trying to

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Speaker 5: do here on the show is get to the bottom

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Speaker 5: of things.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: So, investigators searched his home. They were reportedly you know,

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Speaker 5: they're checking drains on plumbing for possible traces of blood

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Speaker 5: and tissue. Is this normal, Joseph? Yeah, Is this a

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Speaker 5: normal kind of thing to do when they suspect dismemberment?

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Speaker 4: Well? Yeah, first off, it's if we have a violent

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Speaker 4: crime where we believe there has been blood letting and

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Speaker 4: clean up afterwards, we're going to check the drains. And

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Speaker 4: in this particular case, my suspicion is is that they

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Speaker 4: have gone into anywhere that there is a sink in

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Speaker 4: the tubs, and more than likely they have gone so

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Speaker 4: far as to remove not just like when you look

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Speaker 4: into the bowl of a sink, you think about, you know,

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Speaker 4: around the edge the rim of the drain. It's not

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Speaker 4: just there, it's also underneath where the trap is that

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Speaker 4: kind of s shape high for you, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: And we'll pull that whole thing out and that entire

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Speaker 4: structure will be early examined. We can actually place cameras

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Speaker 4: in there and take photos down in there while it's

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Speaker 4: in place, and then remove it, take it back to

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Speaker 4: the lab and collect anything that we might believe is

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Speaker 4: in there. And it's kind of a secured area. And

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Speaker 4: you'd be surprised how much stuff gets caught up in

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Speaker 4: the trap just through daily life, you know, and how

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Speaker 4: much more so if you're talking about tissue, human tissue.

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Speaker 4: It's not just blood, it's any tissue that might be

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Speaker 4: associated with a body. Because we have to keep in mind,

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Speaker 4: this is not us saying this. This is the authorities

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Speaker 4: that have used the term dismemberment. And that's very important

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Speaker 4: here because we were talking about it off air just

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Speaker 4: a moment ago. Dismemberment is an action word, right, you know,

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Speaker 4: this is this is important to understand. And in order

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Speaker 4: to dismember a human remain, you have to have privacy,

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Speaker 4: you have to have access to tools. If there are

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Speaker 4: electrical tools, you have to have access to power source

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Speaker 4: or a battery charger. Then, when you think about it,

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Speaker 4: what level of knowledge does an individual have about human anatomy,

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Speaker 4: Because we do some dismemberment, if you will, in morgues,

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Speaker 4: because there's certain things we have to retain. And if

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Speaker 4: you don't have any kind of anatomical understanding, like weak

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Speaker 4: points in the body, where you're not going to have

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Speaker 4: to solve their areas. Most civilians don't understand that, and

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Speaker 4: they get caught up in these things and they think

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Speaker 4: that it's going to solve all their problems, and of

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Speaker 4: course it doesn't, at least more problems because you're creating

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Speaker 4: more evidence. Every time a blade touches the skin, touch

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Speaker 4: its bone, You're creating more evidence over and over, and

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Speaker 4: it becomes almost exponential. So it's really difficult to hide,

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Speaker 4: very difficult.

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Speaker 5: I'm really glad that you brought that up because I

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Speaker 5: kind of wanted to ask you about this. So when

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Speaker 5: she was reported missing in April twenty twenty four, a

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Speaker 5: missing person's poster and her family listed her, you know,

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Speaker 5: as weighing one hundred and twenty pounds. Yeah, and we

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Speaker 5: learned through reports that police are saying that her remains

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Speaker 5: were seventy pounds. And there's two questions about this that

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Speaker 5: I want to ask you, Joseph, if it's okay. Number one,

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Speaker 5: can we tell from the fifty pound weight loss how

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Speaker 5: long she was decomposing? That's number one And number two

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Speaker 5: they specifically mentioned dismembered. But if she decomposed for a while,

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Speaker 5: could it be that she was dearticulated or are they

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Speaker 5: very specific when they use the word dismemberment.

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Speaker 4: Now, they're very They have evidence of dismemberment, and I'm

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Speaker 4: talking about things like tool marks in sized areas that

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Speaker 4: so they don't just flippantly use that term. You have

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Speaker 4: to have verifiable evidence that dismemberment has taken because that's

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Speaker 4: that's a heck of a supposition there. You have to

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Speaker 4: have evidence of it. So you will see post mortem

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Speaker 4: trauma body, you visualize it, you document it. Just articulation.

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Speaker 4: When you think about that, many things can be implied

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Speaker 4: and that does happen with certain decomposing bodies where the

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Speaker 4: body will actually pull apart in weak areas, anatomically weak

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Speaker 4: areas like joints and that sort of thing. Sure, that's

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Speaker 4: not what they're saying here. And as to the mass

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Speaker 4: of the body, this is very significant. They're saying one

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Speaker 4: twenty in life and now they're saying, and we do

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Speaker 4: have a positive ID. We have to go back and

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Speaker 4: say that we have a positive ID on Celeste Rivas

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Speaker 4: and so with her remains, they're actually calling calling this

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Speaker 4: seventy pounds all that remains of her. There's a lot

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Speaker 4: of explanations for that that, you know, will we can

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Speaker 4: get into.

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Speaker 5: Well, I would love to get into it. I would

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Speaker 5: absolutely love to get into it. What do you think

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Speaker 5: some of those might be? But let's just remind everybody

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Speaker 5: we're talking about Celestreevus. Her body was found in David's

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Speaker 5: singer and David's tesla. This is true friend tonight on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 5: We're just digging into this right now. Joseph, what are

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Speaker 5: some of those things that you were mentioning that could

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Speaker 5: contribute to that fifty pounds?

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, first off, you've got the idea of dismemberment.

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Speaker 4: So you're going to lose some mass as a result

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Speaker 4: of that action. Okay, you're going to lose body fluids,

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Speaker 4: You're going to lose tissue, you can lose bits of

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Speaker 4: bone and all of that cumulatively. You know, you begin

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Speaker 4: to think about weight, you're losing that along the way. Also,

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Speaker 4: we still don't have a real good handle and I'm

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Speaker 4: glad we don't because the police are protecting this information.

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Speaker 5: That's important, So glad, yes, but we.

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Speaker 4: Still don't have any idea how long she has been deceased.

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Speaker 4: And so with that, if you factor that in scientifically,

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Speaker 4: there are certain decompositional changes that take place that reduce weight,

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Speaker 4: and one a big part of this is actually dehydration.

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Speaker 4: You know, we think about we get dehydrated. The dead

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Speaker 4: cannot rehydrate and you cannot rehydrate dead cell so as

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Speaker 4: these and what the biggest component of our bodies in

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Speaker 4: life is water, right, so you know you're losing you're

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Speaker 4: losing that fluid content and that reduces the mass of

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Speaker 4: the body. So that's a very important piece to this,

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Speaker 4: I think. But again have to get a handle on

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Speaker 4: how long I'd like to know. This is my big

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Speaker 4: questions to investigator. When was she actually last known to

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Speaker 4: have been alive, Who communicated with her, who visualized her?

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Speaker 4: We're talking of about a tesla. Guys, my lord, these

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Speaker 4: things have got cameras.

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Speaker 5: All over them.

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Speaker 4: And this car is registered to David out of Houston, Texas.

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Speaker 4: They're saying, originally from New York, he was born in

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Speaker 4: New York, He's from Texas, and this car is registered

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Speaker 4: him out of Houston, in the Houston area, and it's like,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, guys, it's like, what a block and

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Speaker 4: a half or two blocks.

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Speaker 5: Away from five hundred feet away.

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Speaker 4: Where he was domiciled in the Hollywood Hills. Just because

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Speaker 4: her remains are found in the car does not mean

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Speaker 4: that her remains have always been in that car somewhere

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Speaker 4: else and then in the car's move. Yeah, right.

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Speaker 2: Just a couple of things I did want to acknowledge

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Speaker 2: is that there has been a lot of speculation and

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Speaker 2: some of it does seem substantive, but so far as

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Speaker 2: speculation of different theories about connections between David and celesse Reeves,

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Speaker 2: police at this moment have not confirmed a relationship.

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Speaker 3: Also, this case is being treated.

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Speaker 2: As a homicide, understandably so detectives are pursuing several leads,

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Speaker 2: but no suspects have been publicly named. So I just

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Speaker 2: thought that was worth mentioning. And one other thing, back

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Speaker 2: to the weight Joseph from one twenty in life and

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Speaker 2: then the approximately seventy pounds of remains. It was a

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Speaker 2: really big heat wave in Los Angeles in the days

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Speaker 2: leading up to when the remains were found.

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Speaker 3: Could that have an impact on the dehydration?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it certainly could. And as any listen, everybody in

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Speaker 4: the sound of our voices knows, I don't care if

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Speaker 4: you live in the far north of America or in

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Speaker 4: Canada or wherever. It's in the middle of summer and

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Speaker 4: you get into cabin of your car. You can't even

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Speaker 4: touch the steering wheel, right, it's hot. You sit on

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Speaker 4: the seat and it's like, oh my lord, you know

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Speaker 4: I want to get the air rolling. How much more

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Speaker 4: so in la during the summer and a car. That's

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Speaker 4: why we don't leave our children in cars. We don't

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Speaker 4: leave pets in cars because it's like an oven. So

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Speaker 4: this environment is literally cooking, you know, from within, and

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Speaker 4: you put organic material and it can be any organic material,

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Speaker 4: doesn't just have to be one of our fellow human beings,

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Speaker 4: and it's going to change. It's going to change the structure, okay,

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Speaker 4: just simply by introduction of heat, and it greatly. And

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Speaker 4: that's that's one of the things they have to do

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Speaker 4: to factor this into their calculus to try to understand,

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Speaker 4: you know, where she was. And let me give you

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Speaker 4: if you like this, let me give you one more.

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Speaker 4: They led they've ruled this as a homicide, but y'all,

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Speaker 4: I got to tell you, they don't have a cause

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Speaker 4: of death, and that tells you a lot about status

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Speaker 4: of the body. Because if they don't have a cause

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Speaker 4: of death, that means that doesn't mean that they they're

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Speaker 4: not going to release one. But as you notice, they

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Speaker 4: called it a homicide, they still haven't given us a cause.

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Speaker 4: The homicide is the manner because you know, people the

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Speaker 4: dead or not standardly dismember generally, there's some kind of

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Speaker 4: homicidal event that precedes this, and so they're thinking, they're

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Speaker 4: they're trying to think this through. I can tell you

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Speaker 4: there are tons of scientific eyes on this. I would

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Speaker 4: imagine La County m E. Slash Corner has probably had

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Speaker 4: at least two or three forensic pathologists take a look

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Speaker 4: at this in house alone.

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Speaker 5: Oh really, yeah? That many? Yes, So I went to

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Speaker 5: the La Medical Examiner's website, and the Medical Examiner. I

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Speaker 5: don't know if you know this guy or girl is

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Speaker 5: doctor ansel Nam. Anyway, we're going to continue talking about

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Speaker 5: this because I need to pick Joseph's brain a bunch

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Speaker 5: more about this. Keep it right here at True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 5: We're talking true crime all the time.

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Speaker 2: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We are talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong, joined by

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Speaker 2: crime analyst Body Movin. Stephanie Leidecker is out for the evening,

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Speaker 2: but we we are lucky enough to have Joseph Scott

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Speaker 2: Morgan with us. It's Forensics Sundays, and Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: of course, is the forensic expert and host of the

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Speaker 2: podcast Body Bags.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you, so give us

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Speaker 2: a call. We're at eighty eight three to one crime,

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Speaker 2: so join the conversation. If there's anything you want to

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Speaker 2: ask Joseph about forensics on any of these cases, that

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Speaker 2: would be great. Later in the show we're going to

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Speaker 2: be talking about the newly emerging forensics in a death

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Speaker 2: that took place at burning Man. But now we're going

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Speaker 2: to dive back in to continue the discussion about David

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Speaker 2: and the remains of Celeste Reves that have been found

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Speaker 2: inside a car his tesla registered to him. Body Could

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Speaker 2: you again just reset for people just joining.

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Speaker 5: Us for sure? So David, he's a singer. He was

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Speaker 5: on world tour, and while he's on tour, what has

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Speaker 5: been reported is they found a dismembered teenager in the

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Speaker 5: fronk of his tesla. And what the fronk is in

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Speaker 5: a tesla, The trunk is in the front, so we're

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Speaker 5: calling it a fronk. And it's been reported that these

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Speaker 5: remains that they found were of Celeste Revas, who's been

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Speaker 5: missing since April of twenty twenty four, and so now

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Speaker 5: people are kind of digging up info on this, you know,

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Speaker 5: any kind of connection between you know, this poor teenager

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Speaker 5: that's found in this trunk of the car to the

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Speaker 5: owner of the car, which again is David. So we're

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Speaker 5: right now we're kind of talking about it's been reported

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Speaker 5: that her body was found in an advanced state of

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Speaker 5: DCOM and so luckily we have Joseph Scott Morgan here

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Speaker 5: to kind of break this all down. What does this mean?

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Speaker 5: Advanced state of DCOMP And one of the things that

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Speaker 5: they that we've learned that they used to identify her

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Speaker 5: was this tattoo on her finger. And this tattoo that

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Speaker 5: she had on her finger was apparently like a sh

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Speaker 5: and it's very popular amongst gen z and even millennials

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Speaker 5: that you know this this tattoo, So it's not like

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Speaker 5: a totally uncommon tattoo. But what I was curious about

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Speaker 5: was if her body is an advanced state of decomp

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Speaker 5: how can they identify two on her? Because doesn't your skin.

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Speaker 5: Isn't your skin the first thing to like decomp decompose?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it presents with decompositional changes. But tattoos are

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Speaker 4: quite amazing. They're resilience after death. We can actually, I

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Speaker 4: don't hate to use the term, we can breathe life

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Speaker 4: into the tattoo. It's not really what we do. But

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Speaker 4: first off, you can kind of clear off the top

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Speaker 4: layer of skin, which is easily done with decomposing bodies.

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Speaker 4: When you get down into the dermis. You know, we

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Speaker 4: have the epidermis and the dermis. You get down into

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Speaker 4: the dermis and it might be the epidermist because of

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Speaker 4: color changes in body, it might block you visually, but

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Speaker 4: if you suspect that you see something, you can kind

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Speaker 4: of clear out that top layer and you'd be surprised

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Speaker 4: at how vibrant some of the tattoos are. We also

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Speaker 4: use alternative lighting. Many times, we can use infrared and

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Speaker 4: those sorts of things, and or we can call in

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Speaker 4: a photographer that does that's not my Bailey Wick, but

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Speaker 4: been around when it's done, and you can capture these

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Speaker 4: images that are really really significant. You know, tattoos have

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Speaker 4: been used for years to get IDs. The problem is

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Speaker 4: is that what's the old joke. You know, people walk

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Speaker 4: around with like the Chinese word for water on their body,

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Speaker 4: have no idea what it means. But tattoos, they used

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Speaker 4: to be so unique people and you could actually identify

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Speaker 4: people or the tattoo artists by virtue of the school

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Speaker 4: that the artists used to come from. And there's a

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Speaker 4: whole history of forensics and tattoos out there. But I digress.

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Speaker 4: It's quite possible. It's easy to do that. You can

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Speaker 4: recognize sometimes you can recognize tattoos easier than you can't trauma.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there's nothing that we could learn then from them

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Speaker 5: just identifying that that she had a tattoo. I was

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Speaker 5: kind of thinking, you know, if they were able to

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Speaker 5: see this tattoo, then maybe she wasn't in the trunk

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Speaker 5: that long, right, But that doesn't that's it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, now I understand where you're going there. And then yeah,

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Speaker 4: and it's a. It's a valid question. I think the

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Speaker 4: problem is, as we had mentioned previously, that the temperature

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Speaker 4: in this case, and this is always the biggest impact

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Speaker 4: for us in the world of postportum interval PMI is

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Speaker 4: you have to do the calculation of day to day

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Speaker 4: heating and cooling and that and heat speeds everything up.

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Speaker 4: You just think about the first time you took a

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Speaker 4: chemistry class and you walked in there was a bunch

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Speaker 4: of burner or an alcohol burner. You know, most experiments

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Speaker 4: have started many times with heat, and so heat, you know,

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Speaker 4: starts this process and it really really you have to

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Speaker 4: be very in tune to just just the environmental changes

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Speaker 4: on a daily basis. You said that, you know, our

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Speaker 4: friends out out in the LA area, we're going through

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Speaker 4: a major heat wave. Yes, it was hot time, and

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Speaker 4: you have to track that back to try to understand, well,

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Speaker 4: how long had this individual they have now identified as her,

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Speaker 4: how long had she been When was the last time?

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Speaker 4: Not how long, but when's the last time she was

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Speaker 4: known to be a lot, because that's really our only

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Speaker 4: point of reference, and that can either come from digital

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Speaker 4: evidence like being seen on CCTV or phone records, or

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Speaker 4: maybe a little bit less reliable. When was the last

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Speaker 4: time somebody actually saw her? You'd have to source that

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Speaker 4: information and try to understand is this person giving me,

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Speaker 4: you know, the straight dope here, I don't know right.

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Speaker 5: Well, Fox eleven out of Los Angeles is reporting that

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Speaker 5: the car was outside the home for around a month,

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Speaker 5: a little less than a month, and so that's when

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Speaker 5: and that's why I got told because it looked to

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Speaker 5: be abandoned. So I mean at least let's say, four weeks.

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Speaker 5: But we should note though that this investigation, it's being

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Speaker 5: treated as a homicide, but there is no official manner

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Speaker 5: of death at the moment, so there's no there's really

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Speaker 5: been no updates from LAPD. Right, there's been no press conference,

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Speaker 5: there's no suspects. Yeah, David you know, is not been

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Speaker 5: charged with this. He apparently is cooperating with the investigation.

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Speaker 5: So we just want to make it clear, like you know,

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Speaker 5: that this is an ongoing investigation. We're not going to

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Speaker 5: hear a lot from LAPD at least until we get

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Speaker 5: a manner of death. Right, and the fact that they

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Speaker 5: don't have a manner of death, that is a little telling,

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Speaker 5: isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 5: We were kind of talking about this right before the

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Speaker 5: break and you were getting ready to get into it,

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Speaker 5: and I got kind of excited. The fact that they

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Speaker 5: don't have a manner of death tells us something, doesn't it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but many things can be inferred. I think, as

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Speaker 4: I'd mentioned, most of the time, if you have a

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Speaker 4: body that has in fact been dismembered, and that's been

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Speaker 4: stated over and over again in the press, the press

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Speaker 4: actually says this came from the authorities. Most of the time,

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Speaker 4: when you have these cases with a dismemberment, they're going

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Speaker 4: to give you a manner of homicide because there's no

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Speaker 4: other logical, well realistic explanation for that. I have covered

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Speaker 4: one case in the past where God had dismembered his father,

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Speaker 4: but it wasn't homicide. It was he was afraid he's

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Speaker 4: gonna get caught with drugs. And it is a long story,

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Speaker 4: but anyway that happened down in Florida. People might remember

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Speaker 4: that case is really bizarre. They never recovered the father's head,

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Speaker 4: as a matter of fact. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 4: in this particular case, why why are you going to

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Speaker 4: find the remains of a young girl? Let me, I

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Speaker 4: want to say one thing real quick, she's a child, She's.

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Speaker 5: A baby child.

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Speaker 4: This is a Child's very important for everybody to understand.

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Speaker 4: And she's moving and living in a world of adults

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Speaker 4: and you have to have you have to have an

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Speaker 4: explanation for this, and that's going to be the key

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Speaker 4: that's going to lead, I think, at least, because who

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Speaker 4: has anger this much anger toward a child that if

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Speaker 4: she had lived, she would be fifteen, right, because there's

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Speaker 4: a probability that she never made it.

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Speaker 5: He's actually fourteen, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they're saying

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Speaker 5: that right now. The Medical Examiner's website for the Los

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Speaker 5: Angeles County says that her date of death is September eighth,

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Speaker 5: But I do believe they're just using that date because

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Speaker 5: that's the day that she they are and that's still

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Speaker 5: update that I assume.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's another important forensic part here, that date

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Speaker 4: of death. We have two things. You have people hear

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Speaker 4: the terms that get them confused. You hear time of

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Speaker 4: death and time of pronouncement. She was pronounced on that date.

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Speaker 4: The actual date of death is a scientific finding, so

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Speaker 4: pronouncement is a governmental finding. You know. That's like I

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Speaker 4: proclaim you deceased, and that you can have a skill

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Speaker 4: ULTI remain you can have the fresh dead. Either way,

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Speaker 4: they have to officially buy what's referred to as the

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Speaker 4: certifier of death, which is the corner. They have to

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Speaker 4: be proclaimed deceased at that point in time. But that's

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Speaker 4: not the date or time of actual death. That's merely

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Speaker 4: the time of pronouncement, two separate things.

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Speaker 5: This is true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy Moving

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Speaker 5: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and we are so

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Speaker 5: lucky to have Joseph Scott Morgan. He is a forensic

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Speaker 5: death investigator, and we've been going over poor Celeste Reevas.

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Speaker 5: She's fifteen, possibly fourteen years old, and she was found

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Speaker 5: in the trunk of singer David's tesla on the eighth.

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Speaker 5: But I understand Courtney that you have an update on

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Speaker 5: Travis Decker.

431
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely so. Travis Decker.

432
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: We have been following since this tragedy began, which was

433
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: I believe it was on June first. Travis Decker is

434
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: an Army veteran and he has been wanted for three

435
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: counts of first degree murder and three counts of first

436
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: degree kidnapping for the deaths of his three daughters, all

437
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,239
Speaker 2: under the age of ten, and this happened when he

438
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: left home with his daughters for a planned visit on

439
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 2: the thirtieth of May and he never returned. So there

440
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: has been an investigation and a man hunt going on

441
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 2: for this entire time, and investigators have found bone fragments

442
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: as well as some other human remains and clothing that

443
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: looks similar to what Travis Decker was wearing before his

444
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: three daughters were found deceased at this campsite in the

445
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: Cascades of Washington.

446
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 3: Earlier.

447
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 2: So this is interesting to me because there had been

448
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 2: an earlier report of bones were found and there was

449
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: a big question mark and it turned out to be

450
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: animal bones. Joseph, as a layperson, it seemed to me

451
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: that it would be incredibly obvious immediately of an animal

452
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 2: versus a human. But can you explain how that can

453
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: be a question mark?

454
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, good question, Yeah, absolutely, it's really scientifically, it's fascinating

455
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 4: because in every jurisdiction I've worked in, we would a

456
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 4: couple of times a year we have somebody show up

457
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 4: at the Emmy's office, at the corner's office with a

458
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 4: bone in hand, and I want to know I found

459
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 4: this in my yard. It's just a human and most

460
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 4: of the time it was the remnants of a barbecue

461
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 4: that that happened quite a bit. It's rare that you actually,

462
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 4: you know that someone comes across a non historic remain

463
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 4: every now and then. If you lived in an area,

464
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 4: particularly down the South or you know, mid Atlantic, where

465
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 4: there were Civil War battlefields a few years ago, you

466
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 4: would find remains, you know, that way, that were never

467
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 4: and many times dogs are involved. Dogs will bring bones

468
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 4: up into yards all the time. That happens with great frequency.

469
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact. Now you have to be

470
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: able the bone itself if you're talking safe for instance,

471
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 4: like beef bones, like a beef rib. Anybody that's ever

472
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 4: seen a beef rib, you've ever gone for barbecue in Texas.

473
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 4: These things are massive and you look at that and

474
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 4: you know, okay, it's a rib. But this is not human.

475
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 4: And we use the term robust and grassile. Grassile means fine.

476
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 4: And so we're looking at bones. But the morphology of

477
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 4: the bone, the way the bone appears, like the fore

478
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 4: legs of a cow. You think about what is equivalent

479
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 4: to our femur. Their fever is going to be the

480
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 4: diameter of the thing is going to be massive. You

481
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 4: can look at it. But and look, I'm not saying

482
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 4: if people have questions, bring it to the corner.

483
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 5: Man, you don't do it. I didn't know they would

484
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 5: do that.

485
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, you you missed up, Tony. You have to look

486
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 4: at them because you don't you know. I invite anybody

487
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 4: that has a question like that to reach out to

488
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 4: the authorities because you never know. You never know. I mean,

489
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 4: there are people that are trained to look at these

490
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 4: and in this particular case, we had the animal animal remains,

491
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 4: and I think I remember we talked about this and

492
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 4: we got kind of excited about this. We thought that

493
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 4: we had a resolution. As it turned out, it turned

494
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 4: out to be nothing. But now they have these remains

495
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 4: and they are saying specifically human they are. So we'll

496
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 4: see how this rolls out. I'm this case. Is this

497
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 4: case affected me? I think it affected y'all too. I

498
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 4: don't want to superpose my thoughts on these precious little

499
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 4: babies and what they went through. It's just heartbreaking, and

500
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 4: I think that a lot of us wanted to know that.

501
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: I don't know from me personally. You want to you

502
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 4: want to have the idea the man isn't roaming the countryside,

503
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying. Yeah, this is terrifying stuff.

504
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 4: Terrifying stuff.

505
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 5: He's just out right, I mean yeah, he's just out

506
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 5: there living his life. Nobody wants that, you know, Like, yeah,

507
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 5: we want him punished, right and to answer for his crime.

508
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: Yes, we DNA testing is.

509
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: The results are anticipated to come back in the next

510
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: several days. But at this announcement of the discovery, which

511
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: happened on Thursday, the Sheriff's office said it has been

512
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: in contact with the Decker family and as we're providing

513
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: them with updates and support, so it seems like they

514
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 2: may finally be closing in.

515
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 5: Well, I hope, so hopefully we'll get some answers. Well,

516
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 5: coming up, what famous football player is funding the autopsy

517
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 5: for Trey Reed, the Mississippi student found haul last week?

518
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 5: And later we're going to be unpacking the forensics in

519
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 5: that Colorado funeral misconduct.

520
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: We want to hear from you, so give us a call.

521
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: We're at eight a eight to three to one crime

522
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: or you can always leave us a talk back. They

523
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 2: come in very quickly. So just go to the iHeartRadio app.

524
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: You go to the top right hand corner, you click

525
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: the microphone, leave a voice memo, and then you are

526
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: on the show. We love folk, we love a talk back,

527
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 2: We love a call in, or you can get to

528
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: us on socials. We are at True Crime Tonight's show

529
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook.

530
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: Later in the show, We're going to be diving deeper

531
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: into Colorado's disturbing funeral home problems. There's been more than

532
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: one and one was already too many. But first we

533
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: are going to hit a talkback.

534
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: Hi True Crime Night.

535
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 6: Lee Joseph Scott Morgan mentioned a story a few weeks

536
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 6: ago about a child that was missing and he was nonverbal.

537
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 6: I think was in Tennessee and I saw something this

538
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 6: week that he was found and he was eaten by

539
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 6: an alligator and the mom was arrested. Can we get

540
00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 6: more information?

541
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 4: You guys are better at that than I am.

542
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 5: Thanks by thank you for the talk back, and yes,

543
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 5: of course, this is such a sad, sad, sad story,

544
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 5: and I learned about it actually today. I think you

545
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 5: guys discussed us while I was out, because wow, this

546
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 5: poor boy. So visitation and funeral services were held this

547
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 5: past Saturday on the fourteenth, September fourteenth for twelve year

548
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 5: old Brian Vesquez. He's auta Louisiana. His body was found

549
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 5: inside an alligator, and his mother has been arrested and

550
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 5: charged with negligent homicide and child cruelty. Amongst these allegations

551
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 5: of like long standing abuse and so Brian Vesquez he

552
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 5: was a nonverbal twelve year old from the East area

553
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 5: of New Orleans. He disappeared on August fourteenth after kind

554
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 5: of like leaving his house from a bedroom window early

555
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 5: in the morning. This is so awful. So his mother

556
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 5: has been charged with negligent homicide. How does how how

557
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 5: is how is this even related to him ending up

558
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 5: in a in the body of an alligator.

559
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so it's just tragic beyond as you said,

560
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: and especially you know, beginning with going out through a window.

561
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: But it seems like there has been a history of

562
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: abuse with the mother. Case documents prior incident when Brian,

563
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: when he was just really a baby infant three months old,

564
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: he had suffered some severe injuries a skull fracture, broken legs,

565
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: a collapse lung, and his mother has been previously convicted

566
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: for cruelty to a juvenile back in twenty thirteen, and

567
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: he was removed from the home at the time but

568
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: later returned, So that's going to be part of it.

569
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: And then I don't know if you guys saw, but

570
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: there's also there was also a delay in the police response.

571
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: So the authority also acknowledged that there was a significant

572
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: delay of about five hours between when this nonverbal twelve

573
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: year old boy was reported missing and when officers responded.

574
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: That delay is under an internal investigation. So it seems

575
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: like failings on many levels.

576
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 5: Oh, this is so awful. So I'm hoping that there's

577
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 5: some kind of resolution like how did did he slip

578
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 5: and fall into some kind of pond or something like what?

579
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 5: I don't I don't understand. But apparently her negligence of

580
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 5: being a mother, uh you know, caused him to maybe escape.

581
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 5: I use the word escape, but maybe I shouldn't use

582
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 5: that word, but leave the home right through this window.

583
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 5: I mean, it's not like they're implying that mom fed

584
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 5: him to the alligator, right or no?

585
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 4: No, no, And you know this is.

586
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 3: Crazy.

587
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 4: My hometown, that's your home, right yeah. Yeah. And so

588
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 4: the area where they're talking about this is in east

589
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 4: the East Side So if you're if people have been

590
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 4: to New Orleans when you come in on it, if

591
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: you're coming from the east, this is where you make

592
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 4: the entry. As a matter of fact, New Orleans East

593
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 4: is the area that was so desperately impact Trina. Yeah,

594
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 4: and so there in the ninth ward, Yeah, in that

595
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 4: area there and in New Orleans. The thing about it

596
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 4: is is that you'll have homes that border actual canals.

597
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 4: The canals don't have like fencing or anything like that.

598
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 4: On you can step off the edge of the canal

599
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 4: and the next thing you know, you're in thirteen feet

600
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 4: of water. And this and the canals all drain either

601
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 4: they might drain toward Lake Poncha Train or down toward

602
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 4: the river where you've got the marshes and everything and

603
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 4: everything leads to the gulf. So these are habitats, I

604
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 4: mean wild habitats, you know out in these areas where yeah,

605
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 4: there are lots lots of gaters, lots of gaters out there,

606
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 4: work cases involving gaters. And if you've got a child

607
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 4: that is compromised like this, this poor little angel, and

608
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 4: mama's not minding the store, if you will, this is negligence,

609
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 4: you know, it's not yes, you might have a history

610
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 4: of abuse, But this goes to another portion of this

611
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 4: investigatively is negligence because you if you have a child

612
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: like this, you don't want them to have the ability

613
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 4: to open a window and just disappear into the night.

614
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 4: So that speaks to do care if you will. And

615
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 4: you know, you think about him just wandering around and

616
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 4: if he's disoriented, maybe he's in the dark, it doesn't matter.

617
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 4: And you step off and you're in like a lush

618
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 4: grassy area and there's a lot of lush, grassy, grassy

619
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: areas down there, thick grass. You're just sitting there and

620
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 4: the next thing you know, you step off into a pond. Well,

621
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: all bets are off because you don't know what's in

622
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 4: that murky water. And it's it's actual very terrifying consideration.

623
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 4: But in my opinion, at least to what I know

624
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 4: about this right now, that's that's what sounds like happened.

625
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 5: How do forensics teams confirm human remains when they're found

626
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 5: inside an animal.

627
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 4: Like an well, yeah, you know this is I think

628
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 4: that one of the things is you have to be

629
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 4: able to identify the animal specifically, and you would get it.

630
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 4: And the thing that, you know, the thing that's kind

631
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,479
Speaker 4: of troubling is that if this was if they're calling

632
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 4: it New Orleans, ease, this is n OPD. This is

633
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: because the like Miami Dade, the city and the county

634
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 4: are one and the same, so Orleans. In Louisiana we

635
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 4: have parishes, so it would be Orleans Parish, which is

636
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 4: the same as New Orleans, and so thus jurisdictions, n

637
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 4: OPD would have worked this area. So if they got

638
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 4: to call out on it and it took them five

639
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 4: hours to get there and you got to the child,

640
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 4: that's this compromised. You'd have to know how the call

641
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 4: came up and then where do you look, you know,

642
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 4: is this in proximity to his domicile? And if you

643
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 4: would have to call out wildlife and fisheries, this is

644
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 4: not something that NPD would handle. While like fisheries, the

645
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: game wardens if you will, who are police officers as

646
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 4: well state police officers. They would come out, they would

647
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 4: assess the situation and they would begin to search this area.

648
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 4: If there is a gator in that area, if they

649
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 4: think might have been involved in this, they're going to

650
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 4: do everything they can to get that gator, and then

651
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 4: at that point in time, if hate gunnuns road, but

652
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 4: if this has happened, there would be an examination of

653
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 4: that animal, and then if there are partial remains, something

654
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 4: that's left behind that was not consumed by this animal,

655
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 4: they would take those two things and compare them.

656
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 5: Well, there was surveillance footage that showed Brian near that lagoon.

657
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 5: Brian is the victim in this He's the nonverbal twelve

658
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 5: year old. There was surveillance footage that showed him near

659
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 5: that lagoon where his body was found, and apparently he

660
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 5: was missing for about two weeks before they found his

661
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 5: body in this alligator. So I'm just it's just fascinating

662
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 5: to me, like how they So do they have to

663
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 5: I don't want to say this because it's going to

664
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 5: make me sound crazy, but do they have to kill

665
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 5: the alligator?

666
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 4: Oh?

667
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, Okay, definitely.

668
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 4: And most of the time gators don't eat immediately. They kill,

669
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 4: cap they capture kill. Oh they store, Yeah, they store,

670
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 4: and that's one of the things they use their tail for.

671
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 4: They'll swish out a bank underneath and they will actually

672
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 4: take a remain. It doesn't matter what it is, whatever

673
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 4: it is that they're choosing and they will store that.

674
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 4: Alligators don't have a People think about their their bite

675
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 4: ability and they've got a great bite going down, but

676
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 4: they're very weak when they open their mouth, and so

677
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 4: the ingestion process it takes some time for them. So

678
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 4: I have found, at least the cases that I've worked,

679
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 4: and particularly when working with Wilette Fisheries who knows all

680
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 4: about this, there has to be a period of time

681
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 4: where the what they're eating is actually digestible for them,

682
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 4: and so that's why they have this area where they

683
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 4: store and then they returned back. I'd like to know

684
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 4: more about the dynamics of actually how they identified this,

685
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: because you know, investigatively, it's it's interesting and it's it's

686
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 4: also it's a cautionary tale as well to mind your

687
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 4: children no matter what. And this seems like a long

688
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 4: term problem. It sounds like not only is there parental failure,

689
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 4: there is maybe law enforcement failure as well, because they

690
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 4: didn't get on this soon enough.

691
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 5: Well, the Orleans Parish Corner's Office did confirm the cause

692
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 5: of death is drowning with blunt trauma consistent with an

693
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 5: alligator attack. So they must have owned something that gave

694
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 5: them you know, whether it was like you said, you know,

695
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 5: impact or or whatnot to the body with this blendforce

696
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 5: trauma of the some kind of I hate to you know, but.

697
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 4: No, it's okay, no, I mean, that's that's just the

698
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 4: reality of it. That's what we're talking about here. And yeah,

699
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 4: and also they were they would be able to confirm

700
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 4: drowning as well. So that means that this child would

701
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 4: have taken water on into their lungs, which would not

702
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 4: be outside the realm possibility they might find water in

703
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 4: the lungs also in the inner ear, something you look for,

704
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 4: and drowning And of course we know that that alligators

705
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 4: do the death roll, and that's one of the ways

706
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 4: that they subdue prey. I hate to reduce his child prey,

707
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 4: It certainly isn't. But this little angel, you know, he

708
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 4: met up a fate that he did not deserve in

709
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 4: this particular instance.

710
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 5: Well, the neighborhood in which he lives in had the

711
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 5: community member tew the vigil to honor Brian following his death,

712
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 5: and we're certainly glad to know that. But it's not

713
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 5: yet clear exactly when Brian died. During the window he

714
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 5: was missing the corner has not been able to pinpoint

715
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 5: the precise moment, and we're going to continue to follow

716
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 5: this case and keep you guys updated on everything. This

717
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 5: is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy Movin and

718
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 5: I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

719
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 5: We've been talking about Brian Besquez and we want to

720
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 5: hear from you. Hit us up on the talkbacks or

721
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 5: give us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime.

722
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 5: I understand, we have a talk back.

723
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 7: Hi, Tika, this is Nancy from Atlanta, and you're talking

724
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 7: about the guy and the change of clothes. I think

725
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 7: he probably was double closed and so he was able

726
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 7: to take off what he was on the rooftop with

727
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 7: and probably discarded those, I would think, but then he

728
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 7: had already had the clothes underneath. The T shirt would

729
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 7: be easy. And we don't really know do we really

730
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 7: know what I'm not sure if I know what color

731
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 7: his pants were when he was up there, But anyway,

732
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 7: that was just my thoughts. Anyway, I can't wait to

733
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 7: listen to you tonight. Have a good one bye.

734
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 3: Thank thank you, thank you so much for that.

735
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: And what that talk back was in reference to is

736
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: the accused shooter Tyler Robinson, who is the suspect for

737
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: shooting Charlie Kirk, the political activist, which has obviously taken

738
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: this nation really on hold. So that's, I mean, that's

739
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 2: an interesting theory. Again, it is, it's a question mark still,

740
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: it is. I don't know if either of you have

741
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: any specific thoughts.

742
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, actually, I'll just give you my experience with multiple

743
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 4: layers of clothing. I've worked cases where you have people

744
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 4: that live and work on the streets in the criminal element,

745
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 4: and many times they will, particularly people that commit robberies

746
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 4: that are really good at it, they'll wear multiple layers

747
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 4: of clothing and as they have committed a crime, they

748
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 4: will and it's amazing how they'll do this. The clothing

749
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 4: is in stark contrast. Maybe the clothing they have within

750
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: is in start contrast to that that they have externally.

751
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,479
Speaker 4: So if you're looking for a guy with a white

752
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 4: T shirt, you look for a guy that's now got

753
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 4: a I mean, now this guy has a red T

754
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 4: shirt on our blue T shirt. He's not fitting the script.

755
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,479
Speaker 4: Maybe he had a hat on, he took the hat off.

756
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 4: Maybe hat shades on it's no longer wearing shades, or

757
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 4: maybe now he is wearing shades. And so you'll see

758
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 4: this many times on the street. You'll have I had

759
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 4: homicide victims over the years, and I remember the first

760
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 4: time I ever saw it. I had actually have a

761
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 4: guy that had three layers of clothing on. This is

762
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 4: in New Orleans. It's rarely cool in New Orleans. And

763
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 4: so you've got somebody that's got three layers of clothing on,

764
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 4: and you're thinking, wow, my lord, why so many And

765
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 4: the detectives educated me really quickly about this. This is,

766
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 4: this is what this guy's involved in. So he wants

767
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 4: to give the appearance of something else, but very salient question.

768
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 5: Comment, Now it is, and we know we've seen the photos.

769
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,720
Speaker 5: There is surveillance images of him too, wearing this maroon

770
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 5: shirt and light colored like shorts, you know, after the shooting.

771
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 5: So it is, it is. But prior to the shooting,

772
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 5: the surveillance remember the surveillance photos that we got from

773
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 5: the FBI, he was wearing like the dark clothing, like

774
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 5: the dark shirt and whatnot. And then just recently, surveillance

775
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 5: images from Dairy Queen of about seventeen minutes away have

776
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 5: surfaced of him after the shooting getting an ice cream

777
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 5: cone and he's wearing that maroon shirt, so it does

778
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 5: appear like he changed clothes. So thank you for that

779
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 5: talk back. It is very well taken. Keep it right here.

780
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 5: True crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

781
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 5: So later on in the show, we're going to be

782
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 5: continuing to diving into the shocking pattern of abuse in

783
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 5: these Colorado funeral homes. We've covered it a little bit

784
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 5: and Joseph has a new case to unpack. But now

785
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 5: let's talk about this weekend's true crime news. Courtney, what

786
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 5: have you been following? Okay, So, Tray Reid.

787
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: He is the twenty one year old first year student

788
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: at Delta State University in Mississippi, and very sadly, he

789
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: was found hanging from a tree on campus the morning

790
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: of September fifteenth. Very quickly, this death was ruled a

791
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 2: suicide by authorities. However, Trey Reid's family has retained a

792
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: civil rights attorney, a guy named Ben Crump, and they're

793
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 2: pursuing an independent autopsy.

794
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: This autopsy is.

795
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 2: Being funded by Colin Kaepernick and he is the NFL,

796
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: the former NFL player, and he runs the Know your

797
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: Rights initiative. So this one, I mean, it just talk

798
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 2: about having more question marks than there are answers. And understandably,

799
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: Trey Read's family is very skeptical and really wants independent verification.

800
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 5: I can't say that I blame them, no.

801
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 2: And I actually I have a question for you, Joseph

802
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: when when you were on last week, I don't recall

803
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: which case we were talking about, but it was to

804
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: sort of leave every area open, and that suicide, which

805
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 2: would close down a homicide investigation is sort of a

806
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: pause is taken until many avenues.

807
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 3: That's us, That's right.

808
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 2: So do you have a thought about how quickly this

809
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: was deemed a suicide?

810
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 4: Well? Yeah, I mean part of me does. I guess

811
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 4: in my experience, at least in my little slice the pie,

812
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 4: the second leading methodology for suicide, behind gunshot wound is hanging.

813
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 4: So my suspicion is is that they saw evidence that

814
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 4: this may have been a case of utilizing the noose

815
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 4: in order to end his life. Now, you have to

816
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 4: be very careful here relative to because many times this

817
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 4: is what happens. You can have people that will take

818
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 4: hanging and use that as a disguise. For some other

819
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 4: kind of airway compromise. Okay, so that's called staging. Staging

820
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 4: of a scene, that's one of the things we look for.

821
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 4: So if you're talking about let's just say for instance,

822
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 4: and I'll try to break this down, so if you're

823
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 4: talking about a ligature strangulation, that is where you use

824
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 4: a cord, a rope, a piece of wire. I've seen

825
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 4: a lot of different things. I've seen pants, belts, you

826
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 4: name it, shirts, The lines that you have on the neck,

827
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 4: for instance, with a ligature strangulation, ten tend to go

828
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 4: parallel to the shoulders, so they kind of run straight back,

829
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 4: all right with hanging the lines or the furrows. We

830
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 4: refer to them as go up and they form an

831
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 4: apex behind the ear, and we call it tinting feature.

832
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 4: And we talked about this, I think some with Epstein,

833
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 4: you know, because his injuries on his neck ran backwards.

834
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 4: That's one of the reasons many of us in forensics

835
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 4: look at that case and say it just doesn't look right.

836
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 4: So I'm glad that they've that they've retired retained Crump,

837
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 4: and I hope that they they retain a good forensic

838
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 4: pathologist because listen, you get one shot at it okay,

839
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 4: and if they have questions, they need to put their

840
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 4: minds at ease, all right, and be able to see

841
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 4: if there's anything there that the state medical examiner in

842
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 4: Mississippi may have missed, you know. I mean in forensics,

843
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 4: we don't we don't mind if if a family wants

844
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 4: to get, you know, a second opinion about it, we

845
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 4: encourage it many times. And I think it's it's it's

846
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 4: wise on their part to do that that way. You know, Look,

847
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 4: you know, a decade from now they might have questions.

848
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 4: It's better to go ahead and have somebody that is

849
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 4: retained by you that's going to answer this questions for you.

850
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 4: So I think that that's it's an important move on

851
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 4: their part. I'm glad that they're doing it.

852
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was very surprised. I'm fairly certain that it

853
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: was the very same day that Trey Reid was found hanging,

854
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: that it was announced no foul play indicated. And all

855
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: I could think about, having, you know, been lucky enough

856
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: to work with you for so long, Joseph, is we

857
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: don't know what kind of drugs may or may not

858
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: be in his system. I mean, someone there's many ways

859
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: that someone could be assaulted.

860
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 3: That would not be you know, quick.

861
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 4: To see the problem with homicidal hanging, and I know

862
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 4: a couple of them. Well, first off, you know, we've

863
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 4: got the horrible dark history of lynch mobs. But there's

864
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 4: a reason they call them lynch mobs. It's because it

865
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 4: takes a lot of people in order to facilitate. Unless

866
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 4: you have somebody that is in a drug state where

867
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 4: you can place a noose around their neck and act

868
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 4: suspend them, all right, that's very difficult to do. Generally.

869
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 4: It's going to take a couple of people that are

870
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 4: involved in something like that. Okay, So I think that

871
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 4: you have to cover all of your bases relative to that. Yeah,

872
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 4: I think that it's really important to get all the

873
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 4: talks because if somebody has done self harm, you have

874
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 4: to understand something about their psychiatric history. You have to

875
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 4: understand if there are only any kind of medication, what's

876
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 4: their psychological background, are they currently in treatment? And this

877
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 4: is stuff that we standardly do in the medical legal world,

878
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 4: where we will interview psychologists, social worker therapist, psychiatrists and

879
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 4: if we find medications that are related to depression, those

880
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 4: we're calling these people. We're going to have a conversation,

881
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 4: and that takes time. It takes time. First off, you

882
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 4: have to get past the physicians saying we don't want

883
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 4: to talk to you because of patient privacy, but you

884
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 4: have to remind them their patient is now deceased. So

885
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 4: and I don't have any indication of that at this point.

886
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 4: That's the if it were my investigation, that's throughout that

887
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 4: I would go go down. I would want to speak

888
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 4: to as many people as I could for you know,

889
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 4: you sign off on this and call it a suicide.

890
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 5: Well, and apparently too, there was no obvious like injuries

891
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 5: to his body, like you didn't have any contusions or lacerations.

892
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 5: There was no like signs of a struggle, I'm assuming

893
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 5: is what they mean by these, right, Like there was

894
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 5: no broken bones, signs of assault before his death, like

895
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 5: he was beaten up or anything like that. So did

896
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 5: you think that led to the you know, the idea.

897
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 7: That it was.

898
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 4: I mean, just imagine if it were any of us

899
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 4: and someone threatening to do this to us, You're going

900
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 4: to fight back, right, You're going to do You're going

901
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 4: to put up a fight. Sure, So that's you're running

902
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 4: down this kind of checklist in your mind as an

903
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 4: investigator to go through through this. You know, if you're

904
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 4: preserving the body, you're looking for injuries, those sorts of things,

905
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 4: and you know you're kind of checking this off the

906
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 4: list as you go along. But we have you know,

907
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 4: there are paines every day, every day all around this

908
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 4: country and they don't ever make the news, but they

909
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 4: do because my suicides don't make the news unless they're

910
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 4: a celebrity. And so we deal with this a lot,

911
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 4: a lot in my world, and so it's something that

912
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 4: we're pretty good at investigating from a medical legal perspective.

913
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,919
Speaker 4: I'm not talking about from a police perspective of course.

914
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 4: Totally two different animals here, so yeah, but yeah, they

915
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 4: did do this relatively quickly, So I'd like to know

916
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 4: more about psychiatric history.

917
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 2: Well, we will absolutely be keeping you abreast as more

918
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,240
Speaker 2: information unfolds and comes out with this case.

919
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 3: This is true crime Tonight. We're on iHeartRadio.

920
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Dataly Body Movin and forensic

921
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 2: crime expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Give us a call. We're

922
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 2: at eighty eight three to one Crime. I actually wanted

923
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: to speak with you guys about.

924
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 3: The burning man.

925
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, crime that happened, which we spoke about

926
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 2: before we had more information, But since we last spoke

927
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago, a murder weapon and cause of

928
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 2: death has now been publicly released. And this pertains to

929
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 2: the case of excuse my pronunciation, Vadim Kruglov, who was

930
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 2: a thirty seven year old Russian man. He was found

931
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 2: what we knew at the time, lying in a pool

932
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: of blood quote at the festival in August of twenty

933
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 2: twenty five. So in this recent update, authorities have announced

934
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: that he was gruesome. He was stabbed in the neck

935
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 2: with a green pitchen knife.

936
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.

937
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And Joseph I recall talking about how at something

938
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: like a festival at burning Man with many people with

939
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: not the most sanitary you know, we're not in a kitchen,

940
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: We're out in the dirt. How much harder does that

941
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 2: make it to determine cause of death, to potentially confirm

942
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: the correct murder weapon?

943
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 4: Exponentially? I can't believe I got to tell you. I

944
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 4: was You could knock me over with a feather when

945
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 4: I found out that this person left the weapon there. Yeah,

946
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 4: because they published they published an image of a knife similar. Okay,

947
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 4: that's been out there, and I think it's green. It's

948
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 4: one of these kitchen knives. You know. You can go

949
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 4: into these stores and you'll see these knives now that

950
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 4: are multi colored, which is something, you know, so bizarre

951
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 4: to me, because they look like they're plastic. They will

952
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 4: they will mean they're very sharp, you know. And so

953
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 4: this looks like a knife that you would have in

954
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 4: your knife block, you know. And that's a clue to me,

955
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 4: in your knife block on the on you know, your

956
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 4: kitchen cabinet where you're preparing food. It sounds like a

957
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 4: weapon of convenience that hey, I'm going to put this

958
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 4: in my pocket or my backpack or something like that

959
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 4: just to defend myself. It's not like they went out

960
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 4: to a hunting hunting goods store, you know, to a

961
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 4: sports sporting good store and purchased a survival knife or

962
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 4: something like that. It's not what they did. This is

963
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 4: a knife that you would use to chop up onions with.

964
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 7: All right.

965
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:41,240
Speaker 4: Now, it's robust, and it's the blade with is is significant.

966
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 4: I'm sure you know, it probably had some kind of

967
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 4: edge on it and it wouldn't really take too much

968
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 4: if you're going to stab someone in the neck in

969
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,760
Speaker 4: order to facilitate the death. The fact that they found

970
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 4: it there. But oh my lord, this environment that they're

971
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 4: in is a it's a nightmare scenario for you as

972
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 4: an investigator because you're talking about dirt surfaces, that's you know,

973
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 4: where you've got so much traffic. The one est I

974
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 4: hear the numbers have dropped from Burning Man, but you're

975
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 4: still talking about seventy thousand people was one estimate. Just

976
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 4: imagine all of the combinations that you have from a

977
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 4: DNA perspective, from a footprint perspective, from a fingerprint perspective.

978
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 3: Sweat and drinks and everything.

979
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 4: Absolutely, there's all kinds of stuff laying around debris. How

980
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 4: do you separate this and how do you secure it?

981
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 4: That's the big thing. And then any potential witnesses that

982
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 4: you might have. There's people from all over the world

983
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 4: that were at this thing, right, so they're in the wind.

984
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 4: They're in the wind now.

985
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 5: The first thing I thought about it's very difficult when

986
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 5: I heard this green knife is you know, people at

987
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 5: Bernie Man are kind of notorious for live streaming and

988
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 5: making videos and whatnot. I'm sure investigators are combing through

989
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 5: video evidence to see who had a butcher block in

990
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 5: their little camper. You know, I'm sure they're looking at

991
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 5: all that. I mean, it was it's the first thing

992
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 5: that came to mi my because it's kind of unique, right,

993
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 5: It's not like a common utensil that you would have

994
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 5: at one of these festivals, so you know they have

995
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 5: if I don't know if you've ever been to any

996
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 5: of these festivals or not. I have never been a

997
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 5: burning man personally, but I've been to similar things. And

998
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 5: you know, usually there's like kind of like little cities, right,

999
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 5: there's little cities and people are, you know, selling things

1000
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 5: and cooking and making hot dogs for people and things

1001
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 5: like that, and chances are maybe this butcher block or

1002
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 5: even just a green knife to cut up onions, as

1003
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 5: you said, might be in one of these videos and

1004
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,439
Speaker 5: they might be able to kind of narrow things down

1005
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 5: by that. I mean, I'm very interested in all that.

1006
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 4: Easy Manufacturer, this is something we do in investigations. So

1007
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 4: an item like this is traceable. It's traceable from the

1008
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 4: perspective of manufacture, what lot it came out of, when

1009
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 4: it was manufactured, where it was sold, are who the

1010
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 4: retailers that sell this thing distributed now you can you

1011
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 4: can kind of come to a dead end with all

1012
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 4: of that. But you know, I call it the investigated funnel.

1013
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 4: So you're trying to narrow down as much of this

1014
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 4: data that you're kind of dumping into your computer and

1015
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 4: your head and kind of narrowing down the evidence. And

1016
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 4: if you look at this and you think, wow, okay,

1017
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 4: well I've got it limited down to a big box

1018
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 4: store whoever that might be, and they sell this there.

1019
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, this model was discontinued back

1020
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 4: and I don't know five years ago. Well, again, you're

1021
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 4: narrowing that down right now, where was it sold geographically? Okay?

1022
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 3: Who stores sold it?

1023
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1024
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 5: Right? And where are they located?

1025
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 3: It's very interesting, it sure is. Well.

1026
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 2: This incident does appear, thankfully, to be the very first

1027
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 2: homicide and hopefully the last reported at burning Man, And

1028
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 2: as of right now, there is no suspect who's been identified.

1029
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 2: There have been hundreds of tips into law enforcements in

1030
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: keep them coming and keep it here, because after the break,

1031
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about a mother daughter duo who

1032
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: was sentenced for selling body parts on the black market.

1033
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 2: Keep it here, a true crime tonight, talking true crime

1034
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: all the time.

1035
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 5: Right now, we're going to be returning to a story

1036
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 5: we covered last week with forensic analyst Joseph Scott Morgan

1037
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 5: here to break it all down for listen. This is

1038
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 5: about this funeral home in Colorado, Courtney, what's going on?

1039
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 3: Body? I wish it was one funeral I know we

1040
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 3: have got a trio in.

1041
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 5: Fact that's gone so fun Yeah.

1042
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 2: This was first brought to us just on Thursday when

1043
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 2: our fantastic associate producer Ava shared it. She did, and

1044
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: Colorado they've been plagued by this i'd spread a funeral

1045
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: home abuse and it includes illegal sale of body parts,

1046
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 2: mishandling of different kinds of remains, and delivery of fake

1047
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 2: cremation remains. And this has gone across multiple facilities over

1048
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 2: the past fifteen years.

1049
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.

1050
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what these cases have revealed is some pretty

1051
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 2: major regulatory gaps in the state's funeral industry. We did

1052
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: learn that Colorado has some pretty laxed laws, really yeah,

1053
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 2: and it includes lacked licensing requirements, routine inspections, and you

1054
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: know what is called generally robust oversight. Even before we

1055
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 2: dig into the specific ones, Joseph, can you give sort

1056
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 2: of a broad overview of how different states. You know,

1057
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 2: what is the latitude with licensing or inspections requirements.

1058
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, most, there's many states have they're very adherent. Yeah,

1059
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 4: let's look at it this way. I often tell you

1060
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 4: guys this, I'm an advocate for the dead. That's what

1061
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 4: I do because we try to tell their stories. But

1062
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 4: by extension, you're an app for the family. If you will,

1063
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 4: think about the most vulnerable time in your life, that's

1064
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 4: when you lose someone that's very dear to you and

1065
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 4: that you love, and so you're literally handing over this

1066
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 4: most precious person to them to take care of them. Okay,

1067
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 4: and you have individuals that fail at this miserably, and

1068
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 4: sometimes there's this kind of malevolent thing that's going on,

1069
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 4: you know, So yeah, they have to be adhere to.

1070
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 4: I'm reminded of a case that was from nineteen ninety nine,

1071
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 4: and if anybody's interested in this, makes that you read

1072
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 4: the story with lights on.

1073
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 7: And that.

1074
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 4: You're at home with other people. It's the Tri State

1075
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 4: crematory case out of Lafayette or Lafayette, Georgia, and there

1076
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 4: were over three hundred bodies down there on that property

1077
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 4: at a crematory where guy was actually saying he was

1078
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 4: cremating bodies, but he was stacking the bodies all around

1079
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 4: the property and they were decaying. And then he was

1080
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 4: giving bits of ash and gravel to families. Yeah, gravel, dirt, wood, chips,

1081
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 4: and it will make it'll make your skin crawl, you

1082
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 4: know when you begin to think about this, and it

1083
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 4: makes you angry too, you know. So when you think

1084
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 4: about these families that are at the lowest I mean

1085
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 4: just the lowest of low in their life, these things,

1086
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 4: they're just going through these heartbreaking circumstances, and you have

1087
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 4: somebody that will take bodies and either for whatever reason,

1088
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 4: you know, in the Tristate case, the guy's crematory wasn't

1089
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 4: working any long, it wasn't paying a gas bill, and

1090
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,439
Speaker 4: you have these people that make you know, I think

1091
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 4: the one case in in in Colorado that was very recent,

1092
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 4: the twenty the twenty bodies that were actually found stowed

1093
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 4: behind a faux wall that turned out to be you know, cardboard.

1094
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 4: They those bodies again were supposed to have been cremated,

1095
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 4: and the families didn't get cremains back. That's what we

1096
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 4: refer to cremated bodies as cremains. And the case that

1097
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:44,920
Speaker 4: I covered, I guess it was last year the year

1098
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 4: before on bodybags. Was this mother and daughter duo in

1099
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 4: Colorado that they were they were taking bodies and this

1100
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 4: they got up on. They got charged of federal charges.

1101
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 4: All right, So they were found in federal court because

1102
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 4: this is a fraud case, is what it comes down to.

1103
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 4: They would not only not cremate the bodies, they were

1104
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 4: taking sections of the bodies and selling them to people

1105
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 4: for medical for medical use, like to broad like to

1106
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 4: train people how to do stitching and all that seuting.

1107
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, okay, so how do they even how do

1108
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 5: they even meet these people to like this is some

1109
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 5: dark web stuff.

1110
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 4: It's very dark yeah stuff. Yeah, I mean, and you know,

1111
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 4: I don't I don't necessarily buy into like, you know,

1112
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 4: people stealing organs and all those.

1113
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 5: Sorts of stuff. Yeah, I know, Yeah, I get you.

1114
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. So many of the stories wind up with a

1115
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 4: dead end. But fortunately in cases like this, you you

1116
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:54,959
Speaker 4: physically have proof here that something has occurred. And look

1117
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 4: to their credit. I guess say Colorado is realized that

1118
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,280
Speaker 4: they need more regulatory control. And listen to the guy

1119
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 4: with the twenty bodies, he was discovered because Colorado had

1120
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 4: begun to clam down. They send inspectors over there, so

1121
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 4: they're starting to n Yeah, and you know what's really

1122
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 4: sad about this case, is it not only was that

1123
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 4: fellow with the twenty bodies, not only was he a

1124
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 4: local funeral home director. Guys, he's a local corner stop it, Yeah,

1125
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 4: which means he's an elected government official. And listen, he

1126
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 4: hasn't been brought to trial yet, so you know, innocent

1127
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 4: until proven guilty. But it really gives you pause that

1128
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 4: someone that's in a position of authority, that has this

1129
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 4: kind of authority in a county, what else are they

1130
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 4: involved in? How many of the cases are there out

1131
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 4: You have to ask that question if you're an investigator.

1132
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 2: And is this I want to make sure because now

1133
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 2: I'm getting my Colorado cases confused.

1134
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 3: Any of course, a lot of them.

1135
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1136
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1137
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: So what we're talking about right now is I believe

1138
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 2: Davis more true out of Pablo Colorado.

1139
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 4: That's the one. Yeah. Okay, So we have the Sunset,

1140
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 4: the Sunset one with the daughter and the mother who

1141
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 4: were selling body parts and they were found guilty back

1142
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three. There's another case I think that

1143
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 4: you guys covered it's like one hundred and ninety bodies.

1144
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 4: There's also a case out there where a body was

1145
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 4: found in a hearse that had been abandoned. That lady

1146
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 4: had been dead for a protracted period of time. They

1147
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 4: go into abandoned house and they find boxes of cremains

1148
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 4: in there. It's the stuff of horror movies. I mean,

1149
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 4: it really is. I don't know that Rob Zombie can

1150
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 4: do justice to this because it's something that you don't

1151
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 4: really think about. So people would do this, you know.

1152
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 5: With this corner. Are they going to go back and

1153
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 5: look at all the cases that this corner has ever touched.

1154
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 4: I hope they do. Yeah, Yeah, I hope they do.

1155
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 4: This is a very listen man. It's I always talk

1156
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 4: about this because I've trained corners all over the country.

1157
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 4: I've taught them had Most are just so dedicated. They

1158
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 4: really care about their community. They're doing a job that

1159
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 4: nobody else does and the people in the community can't

1160
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 4: even imagine what goes on. But when you get somebody

1161
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 4: that's in there that has let's just say they're less

1162
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 4: than moral and that you would take advantage of a

1163
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 4: family that has lost everything, Because when you lose somebody

1164
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 4: you love, you have lost everything. It takes you. Most

1165
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:34,919
Speaker 4: people never recover from it. And so it's a horrible

1166
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 4: set of circumstances. And so yeah, the government, they've got

1167
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 4: to reign this in. They have to rein it in

1168
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 4: state by state and use their regulatory powers to do that.

1169
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 5: Man, I just can't. I mean, the corner this is

1170
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 5: such a trusted position.

1171
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah it is. And you know with with the

1172
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 4: most vulnerable, and the vulnerable are not necessarily the dead.

1173
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 4: The vulnerable or the families that are left behind. The

1174
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 4: dead's journey's over with at this point in this life,

1175
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 4: at least the family has to go on. And can

1176
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 4: you imagine having to make sense out of this for

1177
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 4: years and years to come? Grief is enough to bear?

1178
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 4: Can you imagine having to bear this in addition to it?

1179
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 3: Grief certainly is enough to bear.

1180
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 2: You are listening right now to True Crime tonight, and

1181
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 2: we're talking about a corpse abuse epidemic is probably too

1182
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 2: strong a word, but as we're talking about three of

1183
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 2: them at one moment, it feels a little bit apt.

1184
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:36,760
Speaker 2: It's going on in Colorado. If you want to weigh

1185
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 2: in with any of your thoughts. Give us a call

1186
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 2: at eighty eight to three to one. Crime forensics expert

1187
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan is here joining Body Move and I

1188
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 2: this evening we want to hear from you. So okay,

1189
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 2: so I want to talk about this mother daughter du well,

1190
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 2: So let us start there with is this Megan Hesse

1191
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,520
Speaker 2: and sure Potch yes the sunset?

1192
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1193
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 2: So between twenty ten and about twenty eighteen, those two

1194
01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:12,479
Speaker 2: women operated a funeral home and a body parts business,

1195
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 2: and apparently they sold parts from over five hundred and

1196
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:20,839
Speaker 2: fifty corpses. And this of course was without family members consent.

1197
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,680
Speaker 2: Five hundred and fifty oh my god, more than that.

1198
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the reason they could do this is that

1199
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 4: it was they were claiming that they were going to

1200
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 4: cremate the bodies. Okay, so just think of it this way.

1201
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:39,040
Speaker 4: If you're going to engage in this kind of illegal

1202
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 4: activity and for lack of a better term, the dead

1203
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 4: or what you're selling, well, you can give family back

1204
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 4: quote unquote, and I'm doing air quotes right now. Yeah,

1205
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 4: cremains that are not actually cremains because lots of times

1206
01:10:56,200 --> 01:11:00,679
Speaker 4: the vessels that you receive receive these in or sealed

1207
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 4: and even if you do open it up, people want

1208
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 4: to see the cremains. If you just put you know,

1209
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 4: like burned wood ash if you will in there, the

1210
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 4: layman is not going to know the difference. Most of

1211
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 4: the time, they're not going to sift through through cremains.

1212
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 4: And there's certain things that we can do in forensics

1213
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 4: where we can spot things like elements of bone chips

1214
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 4: that are left behind that are not completely disintegrated and

1215
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 4: so and it's easy to get away with. I mean,

1216
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 4: just think about it. I mean, what criminal in the

1217
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 4: world would not want to burn any evidence of their

1218
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 4: of their you know, malfeasance, whatever that might be. So

1219
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 4: they're retaining the actual remains and then they're dissecting out

1220
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:50,719
Speaker 4: those portions that they can assign value to and charge

1221
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 4: people for it, and people will pay for it.

1222
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 5: So basically, let me let me understand this, and the

1223
01:11:56,080 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 5: paint a picture. Okay, So I'm dead, right and I

1224
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 5: want to be cremated, and I go to this funeral

1225
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 5: home and let's say, I you know, they're going to

1226
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 5: cremate me, but instead of cremating me, they take my foot.

1227
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,600
Speaker 5: Let's say, yes, right, and they send they sell my

1228
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:18,880
Speaker 5: foot to for stitching purposes to some medical place in

1229
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 5: what some other country, and then they cremate the remainder

1230
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 5: of my remains. My person would never know, right, Oh.

1231
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 4: My god, I know. And so this is that's right.

1232
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 5: I mean I never thought you gonna have.

1233
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, you have. And it's a horrible thing to think about. Uh,

1234
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 4: you know. And and there are cases of people, uh

1235
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 4: for years that have done things like grave robbing that

1236
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 4: still goes owned by the way. Uh, people are not

1237
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 4: aware of it that we're shreaking into mausoleums and stuff.

1238
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 4: And covered a case not too long ago in Bodybags

1239
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 4: where we talked about a skull that had been recovered,

1240
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 4: that was found and someone had actually robbed gray back

1241
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 4: in the eighteen nineties. In this skull had been passed

1242
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,679
Speaker 4: through a family and uh, and they had the skull.

1243
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 5: Can you imagine your family heroin being the skull.

1244
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:19,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know there are some people. You'd be surprised.

1245
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 4: You'd be surprised what people collect out there. I've seen

1246
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 4: a lot of it over the year. It still it

1247
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 4: still shocks me, you know. Yeah, what people want and

1248
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 4: people desire what they think they want, and you're just

1249
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 4: bringing misery home with you. Man, I don't. I don't

1250
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 4: understand it. I can't make sense of it. But besides that,

1251
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 4: you know you're left. You've left these families in the

1252
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 4: wake of everything with little or no consideration as to

1253
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 4: how this is going to impact them. And I think

1254
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 4: that many people just take the take the attitude they're

1255
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 4: the dead. It doesn't matter it damn well does matter?

1256
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely does of course it does. And here's another detail

1257
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 2: that hadn't occurred to me until I'm just sort of

1258
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:11,719
Speaker 2: reading the research. So this pair Megan Hassen Shirley Koch,

1259
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 2: mother and daughter. Back in March of twenty twenty one,

1260
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 2: they were arrested in charge with mail fraud, which always

1261
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 2: seems to get everyone from the mob on down. But

1262
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 2: they were charged with mail fraud and illegal transportation of

1263
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:30,759
Speaker 2: hazardous materials for shipping infected remains that they had falsely

1264
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 2: certified as disease free via mail and commercial flights. What's

1265
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 2: Joseph tell me, is that not a horrible hygiene thing

1266
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:42,679
Speaker 2: or could get people sick out a flight?

1267
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:46,080
Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely, And you don't know what they're doing. This

1268
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 4: is not like some anatomical laboratory where these remains are

1269
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,919
Speaker 4: being harvested and there are people that do this, and

1270
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 4: there are medical schools that require elements of human bodies,

1271
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 4: and it's done. People donate their bodies to science all

1272
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:05,680
Speaker 4: the time. However, when you're doing things like this and

1273
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 4: you're going to put it into the US mail, that's

1274
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 4: a completely different set of circumstances. You don't know what's

1275
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,160
Speaker 4: passing through there at any point in time.

1276
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 3: Woof.

1277
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,640
Speaker 2: Okay, well stick around. We have a lot more to

1278
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:23,160
Speaker 2: dig into. We're going to go on through some more

1279
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 2: sanitary conversations and hopefully we're going to be hearing from you,

1280
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 2: So give it here True Crime tonight.

1281
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 5: Right now, I understand we have a talk back. Let's

1282
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 5: go right to it.

1283
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 8: Question about the Idaho murders. They what bathroom are they

1284
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 8: talking about? That they heard him say, I'll help you.

1285
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 8: Do they find blood in either of the bathrooms? I

1286
01:15:57,960 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 8: must have missed that part.

1287
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:02,680
Speaker 5: You didn't miss anything. You've got it straight straight on.

1288
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 5: You got it straight on. Thank you for the talkback. Yeah.

1289
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:10,680
Speaker 5: In the PCA, we learned that Dylan Mortensen, who is

1290
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:14,560
Speaker 5: a surviving roommate of the Idaho case. And if you

1291
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 5: don't know if the Idaho cases, it's Brian Coberger is

1292
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 5: being convicted of the murder of four college students in Moscow, Idaho,

1293
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:25,840
Speaker 5: back in November of twenty twenty two, and it's been

1294
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 5: a case that we've been really following very very closely.

1295
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 5: In fact, we have the Idaho Masacre podcast as well

1296
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 5: as the Idaho Student Murders out on Peacock you can

1297
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:43,280
Speaker 5: watch it now. But this PCA said that Dylan heard Brian, well,

1298
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:47,040
Speaker 5: Dylan heard the person that she was in the home

1299
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 5: say don't worry, I'm here to help you. And it

1300
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 5: came from the area of the bathroom. And this bathroom

1301
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 5: is literally right outside Xana's door, like you know, down

1302
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 5: the hallway to her door, there's a bathroom right before

1303
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:02,640
Speaker 5: you get to the entry to her room. So we

1304
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 5: we think it just came from that area. So it

1305
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 5: very likely happened in Zanna's room. It just you know,

1306
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 5: sounds like her bathroom. Do you guys think so too,

1307
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 5: or what do you guys think?

1308
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:16,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right because to your point, body

1309
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:20,680
Speaker 2: no blood evidence was found or you know, was not

1310
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:24,160
Speaker 2: released any information about that. And it's interesting over the

1311
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:29,440
Speaker 2: years we've covered collectively so many cases and ear witnesses

1312
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:34,080
Speaker 2: are are so interesting to me because just like an eyewitness,

1313
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:40,400
Speaker 2: we humans are are just very unreliable, unreliable right through

1314
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 2: no I mean just through human nature, through no fault

1315
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 2: of our own or through no malice of course, but

1316
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:50,160
Speaker 2: you know, we we kind of put our own filters

1317
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 2: on things that we hear, see, smell, and this seems

1318
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:57,280
Speaker 2: like it probably was that.

1319
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:00,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, any knowe, this was like, you know, four in

1320
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:02,600
Speaker 5: the morning. They had been drinking all night. So you

1321
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:04,759
Speaker 5: have to weigh all those things too when you're talking

1322
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 5: about what an eyewitness season here is, right, it's going

1323
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 5: to be fuzzy. Do you guys ever do something too,

1324
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 5: Like you're drinking with your friends and you do something

1325
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 5: you wake up the next morning and over the course

1326
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 5: of the day like the night before flashes like you're like,

1327
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 5: oh my god, I can't believe I did that. Oh

1328
01:18:21,360 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 5: my god, oh my god. You know, I feel like

1329
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:24,960
Speaker 5: that a lot of that probably is at play too,

1330
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 5: like fuzzy memory.

1331
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 2: And you know, we used to call what you're describing

1332
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 2: the reason for brunch when we were in college is

1333
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:35,719
Speaker 2: we would all go on Sunday, sit at a table

1334
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 2: and little bits and pieces would come together from then.

1335
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's right, that you know, and then that right, so.

1336
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:46,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, Joseph, I want to get back into

1337
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 2: you guys got me both very intrigued as it pertains

1338
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 2: to the David case, not just about the physical forensics

1339
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 2: that we were speaking about, but with the forensics as

1340
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:05,920
Speaker 2: it relates to the Tesla Tesla. Yeah and yeah, so

1341
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 2: I'd love to I'd love to listen.

1342
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 4: I'm not making when you hear me laugh, I'm not

1343
01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:14,480
Speaker 4: making lie. I'm actually reflecting back to again to Coburger

1344
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:19,679
Speaker 4: because you know, I guess it was the day after

1345
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 4: when I was doing my first hit on TV, you know,

1346
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:27,480
Speaker 4: and it didn't stop after that for weeks relative to Coburger,

1347
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 4: And I remember then one of the big questions that

1348
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,680
Speaker 4: was being asked because everybody's looking for CCTV, And one

1349
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 4: of the questions I kept hearing was was there a

1350
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:42,800
Speaker 4: Tesla nearby? Was there Tesla nearby? And it had to

1351
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 4: be explained to me because I am so ignorant when

1352
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 4: it comes to technology like this, I really really, I

1353
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:51,680
Speaker 4: am at my at my at the end of if

1354
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 4: you're looking for help with a computer or anything, I

1355
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 4: am not the guy, particularly particularly the world that we

1356
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 4: live in now where it's not merely just a phone

1357
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 4: or a computer. We're talking about cars and you know,

1358
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:09,320
Speaker 4: and it was explained to me that you know, these cars,

1359
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:14,640
Speaker 4: these teslas, have cameras, you know, in various locations, and

1360
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:17,519
Speaker 4: that they can be and you can collect data from them.

1361
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,800
Speaker 4: I was fascinated by that. And so when I heard

1362
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 4: about this case involving involving this tesla out in the

1363
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 4: Hollywood Hills, one of the things that came to mind

1364
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:36,560
Speaker 4: was I wonder. I wonder who initiated the engine and

1365
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,400
Speaker 4: the thing or the motor however you refer to it

1366
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 4: a power plant if you will. And is there videography

1367
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:47,000
Speaker 4: of them being in there? Can the cops download this

1368
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:51,320
Speaker 4: data when it was stopped, when it was started, status

1369
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:54,760
Speaker 4: of the battery, all these sorts of things. And more importantly,

1370
01:20:54,800 --> 01:21:01,080
Speaker 4: I think with Celeste and we need to say her name, child,

1371
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:05,599
Speaker 4: I think that does it record her? Does it record

1372
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 4: her movements? Had she ever been inside of this vehicle?

1373
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 4: And look, we're going to find out. We're going to

1374
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 4: find out if her DNA is actually in that vehicle.

1375
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:15,879
Speaker 4: And I don't mean as it is related to her remains.

1376
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 4: I'm talking about maybe trace DNA that's in the seats

1377
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 4: or anything like that. Wouldn't it be interesting to have

1378
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 4: confirmatory information from a camera or electronic data. You know,

1379
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 4: that's surveilling. You know all of this, And I got

1380
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:33,720
Speaker 4: to confess ignorance. I don't know enough about the interior

1381
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,760
Speaker 4: of a Tesla. I've written in Tesla's I'm impressed. They're

1382
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:42,160
Speaker 4: really incredible. But I think that LAPD is going to

1383
01:21:42,200 --> 01:21:45,240
Speaker 4: be doing a deep dive into this and Tesla is

1384
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 4: And I do you remember what I said just a

1385
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 4: few months ago, This might be the first time in

1386
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:52,439
Speaker 4: all the cases that I've been covering these past few

1387
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 4: years where Tesla is actually coming into play in a

1388
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:59,040
Speaker 4: homicide case. And boy, what a homicide case to be

1389
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 4: involved in. You're talking about a dismemberment case here.

1390
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:06,000
Speaker 5: Well, before the show I today, I spent a significant

1391
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 5: amount of time researching Tesla's because it's something I actually

1392
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 5: wanted to talk about. So I'm kind of glad you

1393
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,720
Speaker 5: brought this up, Courtney, because it is very interesting. So

1394
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:18,720
Speaker 5: this car is a twenty twenty three models Okay, So

1395
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:21,479
Speaker 5: I went and looked and there are six cameras on

1396
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 5: this Tesla. Wow, And so not only does it record,

1397
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:28,599
Speaker 5: and it's they're meant for the self driving, like you know,

1398
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 5: that's how it kind of self drives. And it also yeah,

1399
01:22:32,439 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 5: it kind of like surveys like the you know, free Yeah,

1400
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:38,599
Speaker 5: that's what they're meant for. And it also has a

1401
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:43,479
Speaker 5: cabin camera to like if somebody you know, keys your car,

1402
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,439
Speaker 5: let's say, you'd be able to kind of tell But

1403
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 5: those I believe my understanding, this is a very complicated car.

1404
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:51,599
Speaker 5: You guys like this. This car is very high tech.

1405
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,600
Speaker 5: But my understanding is those are like packages you have

1406
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:58,679
Speaker 5: to pay for. Okay, So we don't know if it's

1407
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 5: I think it's called Century for the Tesla, And we

1408
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 5: don't know if David the singer who's the car this

1409
01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:07,479
Speaker 5: is registry to whether he's guilty or not, was paying

1410
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:11,559
Speaker 5: for this package. Okay, we just don't know, right, We

1411
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:14,440
Speaker 5: just don't know. But it does have the ability to

1412
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 5: tell them all kinds of things that It also has logging.

1413
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 2: Right, like I'm seeing the trunk and door when they

1414
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:25,080
Speaker 2: when either of them open or close. Yeah, those events

1415
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:26,639
Speaker 2: are timestamp.

1416
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:31,719
Speaker 5: Right, so it keeps those you know, pretty indefinitely too.

1417
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 5: So it should be.

1418
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,920
Speaker 4: Isn't that crazy out of all the conveyances and vessels

1419
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:40,520
Speaker 4: around the world that a person could choose.

1420
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 5: I know, choose Tesla. That's what I'm saying.

1421
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:46,959
Speaker 4: Just think about that. I mean, it's not like they

1422
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 4: got a nineteen fifty four packer or something right now.

1423
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 4: I mean, this is this is the most high tech

1424
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 4: vehicle that's out there that's on the road. It's recording

1425
01:23:56,600 --> 01:23:57,439
Speaker 4: everything that you do.

1426
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 3: It does, but it can be a really rich I saw.

1427
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:03,920
Speaker 4: There's such a delay right now what we're hearing you.

1428
01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 4: I think you had mentioned body earlier that they're trying

1429
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 4: to literally, literally and figuratively download all of this data.

1430
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 4: It's not just the remains, it's all everything that's contained.

1431
01:24:14,479 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 5: This is I think this is going to come down to.

1432
01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:20,160
Speaker 5: I mean, it quite possibly could come down to the

1433
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 5: digital forensics on this Tesla. I really do so because

1434
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:25,879
Speaker 5: it can be a really rich source of forensics evidence.

1435
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:28,360
Speaker 5: But exactly what it can tell police about this body

1436
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:30,559
Speaker 5: found in the trunk, you know, celest she's the victim,

1437
01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:35,160
Speaker 5: depends on the model, whether or not he had this

1438
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 5: package or if there was, Like you know, if it

1439
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 5: were me, I probably would have a permanent SSD card

1440
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:44,759
Speaker 5: in the car recording everything for my you know, insurance

1441
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 5: purposes and things like that, but it can tell you

1442
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:52,240
Speaker 5: when the trunk and the door were opened and closed.

1443
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 5: The timestamps, the GPS location history can tell you where

1444
01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:01,479
Speaker 5: the car was at a particular times, parking loations which

1445
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 5: helps place the vehicle. It can also has all these

1446
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 5: cameras too, and that's the century mode you know that

1447
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:11,479
Speaker 5: that I was speaking of earlier. If sentry mode or

1448
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:15,599
Speaker 5: the dash can was active, and there is this SSD card,

1449
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 5: which again probably something I would do, but I'm not,

1450
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:22,360
Speaker 5: you know, a criminal was present, the car's externals camera

1451
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:26,719
Speaker 5: might have recorded the area around the car in sometimes

1452
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:31,799
Speaker 5: even nearby activity around me a car. So like for instance,

1453
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 5: if I had a Tesla Courtney and I was at

1454
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:35,280
Speaker 5: your house and we went to walk the dog and

1455
01:25:35,320 --> 01:25:38,679
Speaker 5: we walked by my Tesla, it might record us walking

1456
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 5: by because it sensed movement, and it's like a security log,

1457
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:44,680
Speaker 5: you know. It's kind of like a kind of like

1458
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 5: a ring camera.

1459
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:51,639
Speaker 4: It's going to burger, yes exactly, asking this questions early on.

1460
01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:55,280
Speaker 5: Right, And Tesla's have this thing called an ed R.

1461
01:25:55,840 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 5: It's a it's a black box, so to speak, and

1462
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:03,720
Speaker 5: it helps reconstruct vehicle motion and sudden events, and it's

1463
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:05,559
Speaker 5: useful if there's like a crash. I don't know if

1464
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:08,840
Speaker 5: that would be very helpful here, but the vehicle logs

1465
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 5: these tesselas hold are pretty remarkable, and they might be

1466
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 5: able to tell the last time this trunk was opened

1467
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:17,640
Speaker 5: and closed. I don't know what it's going to be

1468
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,519
Speaker 5: able to tell us by who, but if you know,

1469
01:26:20,720 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 5: if if it's registered to David and maybe he did

1470
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:25,360
Speaker 5: it remotely on his phone, they would be able to

1471
01:26:25,360 --> 01:26:29,360
Speaker 5: tell you that, you know, any biometrical stuff that might

1472
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:31,479
Speaker 5: happen or just I.

1473
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:34,720
Speaker 2: Mean, the cameras are so interesting. I don't know if

1474
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:37,400
Speaker 2: you guys have near you a lot of waymos. Do

1475
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:41,000
Speaker 2: you know what I'm referring like self driving cars? Yeah,

1476
01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:42,240
Speaker 2: which I've actually driven in.

1477
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:44,599
Speaker 3: I'm terribly driven in.

1478
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:48,400
Speaker 2: I was scared and then I decided not to be

1479
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 2: when an uber was running late or something. But yeah,

1480
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:55,599
Speaker 2: just the amount of surveillance, as you said, Joseph, and

1481
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 2: I didn't know body that it could act almost as

1482
01:26:59,439 --> 01:27:03,480
Speaker 2: a ring care came and perk up and get activity

1483
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:04,759
Speaker 2: from sleeping.

1484
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 3: Is that correct?

1485
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:09,600
Speaker 5: From understanding? And listen, I don't have a testla. I

1486
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:11,600
Speaker 5: drive a little. I don't drive a fancy car, you

1487
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:14,720
Speaker 5: know what I mean, I really don't. But that's my

1488
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 5: understanding and watching some of the YouTube videos about the

1489
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:22,760
Speaker 5: features of this car, this specific model in year, is

1490
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 5: that it can kind of wake up and you know,

1491
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:29,320
Speaker 5: take a picture. It's never really asleep, right, it's never

1492
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:32,519
Speaker 5: really down. But this, you know, this particular car was

1493
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 5: sitting there for three weeks that we know of. And

1494
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:38,360
Speaker 5: so what I don't know is how.

1495
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:42,679
Speaker 4: Long can we'll check something here that Yeah, I don't

1496
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:44,720
Speaker 4: know the rest of us that live out in I

1497
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:48,360
Speaker 4: don't know what they call flyover country. I'm amazed bot

1498
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:55,240
Speaker 4: is that this house that he lived in allegedly was

1499
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:59,639
Speaker 4: being rented right for twenty k a month. Now, if

1500
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:03,479
Speaker 4: I'm managed neighborhood, if I'm living in a neighborhood where

1501
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 4: the rental rates are twenty k a month, if there

1502
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 4: is an abandoned car on the road, I don't expect

1503
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 4: to come home and see somebody's broken down car or

1504
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:16,600
Speaker 4: dust of course, not arong side of the road. I

1505
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 4: can't believe it's sat there for as long as it did.

1506
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 5: Well, And you know, the guy that owns the house,

1507
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,040
Speaker 5: he's got a very hard to pronounce a name, but

1508
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 5: he said the lease was with David's manager, Josh Marshall.

1509
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,080
Speaker 5: The lease began in February of twenty twenty four, and

1510
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:37,400
Speaker 5: it's in the affluent Bird Street neighborhood off Sunset Boulevard.

1511
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 5: And it's only about five hundred feet from where the

1512
01:28:40,400 --> 01:28:43,600
Speaker 5: car was found. You know, it was found basically, and

1513
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:46,560
Speaker 5: then it got impounded, and then after it was impounded

1514
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:49,080
Speaker 5: is when they opened the trunk. But yeah, it was

1515
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:50,880
Speaker 5: only five hundred feet away from the house.

1516
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:53,439
Speaker 2: And I just I do want to say that it

1517
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:56,760
Speaker 2: would not be that odd for a manager to have

1518
01:28:56,960 --> 01:28:59,120
Speaker 2: their menu on a lease and all that just to

1519
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:03,599
Speaker 2: better maintain pay privacy in any price, I.

1520
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:05,120
Speaker 3: Would, right, absolutely.

1521
01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:07,400
Speaker 5: So you know, we have stalkers everywhere. We just talked

1522
01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 5: about these in stalking celebrities and whatnot. So it makes

1523
01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:12,120
Speaker 5: a lot of sense to me too, Courtney, that the

1524
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 5: house wouldn't be and you know, being leased by David

1525
01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:16,240
Speaker 5: right like himself.

1526
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Joseph, you make a very good point about

1527
01:29:20,040 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 2: you know the car that's sitting there forever and you know,

1528
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:27,040
Speaker 2: a janky car. Well, this is a pretty brand new Tesla,

1529
01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 2: so that might have actually I'm not getting helped the

1530
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,800
Speaker 2: uh that it wasn't an eye sore, that it was,

1531
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:36,320
Speaker 2: you know, just there and people were driving past it

1532
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:38,639
Speaker 2: and not caring for a month.

1533
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that kind of blows my mind. And that

1534
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 4: and particularly I don't know if the car was parked

1535
01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:48,519
Speaker 4: in front of somebody else's domicile and another address, because

1536
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 4: you're talking five hundred feet away, you would think that

1537
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:53,600
Speaker 4: that would raise raise alarms too, Hey, why is this

1538
01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:54,679
Speaker 4: car in front of my house?

1539
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 5: Right that?

1540
01:29:57,080 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 4: You know where houses are rented for twenty k a month.

1541
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 4: You know, It's just it's an unusual set of circumstances,

1542
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:04,439
Speaker 4: to say the very least.

1543
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:06,080
Speaker 5: Let me tell you I don't live in a very

1544
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:08,680
Speaker 5: fancy neighborhood either, But if there was an an if

1545
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:10,360
Speaker 5: there was a car parked in front of my house

1546
01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 5: for three weeks, I would absolutely know. I would app

1547
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 5: because it's like where I put my trash cans, It's

1548
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 5: where I do, you know whatever. I would be like, Okay,

1549
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:20,479
Speaker 5: is this car ever gonna move? What's going on? At

1550
01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:23,040
Speaker 5: some point I probably would call too. I'm not an

1551
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:25,760
Speaker 5: Hoa Karen by any stretch of imagination, but.

1552
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:26,479
Speaker 3: I probably would.

1553
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:31,000
Speaker 5: I would probably notice well, Joseph, thank you so much

1554
01:30:31,040 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 5: for joining us again. This is Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert.

1555
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:37,720
Speaker 5: You can catch more of Joseph on his amazing podcast

1556
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:42,000
Speaker 5: body Bags. Good Night. Thank you for joining us, We

1557
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:44,840
Speaker 5: love you, Thank you. This is your crime tonight