WEBVTT - Can Employers Segregate Unvaccinated Workers? 0:00:01.639 --> 0:00:05.600 More than a dozen states quickly embraced new CDC guidelines 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:09.600 that say fully vaccinated Americans can ditch their masks and 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.920 forego social distancing in most cases. But the sudden change 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.800 has led to questions and concerns from those who say 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.200 there's no easy way for businesses and others to determine 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.320 who's fully vaccinated and who's not. Joining me as Rob Fuller, 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:28.840 a partner with Nelson Hardeman, so the new CDC guidance 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:33.199 came as a surprise to many health and state officials. 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.279 Should it have been done so seemingly abruptly, well, I 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:41.239 think the guidance itself was science based. The problem, I 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.240 think is messaging. You know, we're on the honor system 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.519 whether you've had a vaccination or The guidance, based on 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:53.000 a study of four thousand healthcare workers, basically proved the 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.560 efficacy of the vaccines. Since the vaccination's work, they protect 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.800 you against serious COVID disease, and so when compared to 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:05.080 additional safety you might get by continued mask wearing and 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:09.200 social distancing, uh, it was negligible. You're not measurable in 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:13.240 the study. So the guidance did follow the sign Unfortunately, 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.320 like here in California, we don't have very many people vaccinated. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.360 In the big scheme of things, more than six the 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:25.360 people remain unvaccinated. So it's confusing for business owners and 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.279 everyone else that you know, if you let a hundred 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:29.920 people in your store, statistically you know that more than 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:33.440 sixty of them are unvaccinated, and so you, you know, 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.480 for the safety of your own workers, might well consider 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:40.360 continuing a mask mandate on your own regardless of what 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.120 is the public perceived CDC guidance that masks are no 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.160 longer necessary. Well, also, it seems like there are problems 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:53.360 because the state guidance is different from the CDC guidance. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:57.000 So you mentioned California is one place where that is 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.720 true until today. New York is now going to lift 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:03.960 it's state mask mandate, But in other states there's a conflict. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.360 So what do businesses do. Yeah, I think it's a 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.000 messaging conflict. But when they lift their mask guides in 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.640 New York today, for instance, it's still recommends that if 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.040 you're unvaccinated that you continue to wear a mask. It 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.720 just wasn't going to be a matter of requirement. Uh. 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:24.560 CDC guidance also continues mask wearing for public transportation and 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.400 plane travel. But a private business vers is in a 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.800 tough situation. Obviously you want to cater to the customer, 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.720 but you also, under OSHA and other laws, have a 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:38.000 duty to keep your workforce safe. And knowing that most 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.400 people are not vaccinated yet, you know, if you're a 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.120 business owner, you could just very sanely decide that that 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.440 the best thing for now, for another month or two 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.720 is to continue to require masks. And of course that 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.120 produces what we see on TV with angry, uh maskless 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.639 people being denied entrance to certain stores that have decided 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.040 to do that because of all the prior politicalization and 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.639 you know, guidance shifting quickly. It is a messaging mess 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.800 and leaves the individual business person in quite a laundry. 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.239 The guidance from the CDC was rolled out on Thursday. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:17.400 OSHA hasn't substantially changed its masking recommendations in almost four months. 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.399 That's correct. OSHA will err on the side of work 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.480 for safety and will be much slower than the other 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:28.720 agencies and recommending discontinuation of masks. And I think you know, 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:30.640 common sense would tell you that if most people are 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.960 still unvaccinated, probably makes sense to keep masks on the 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.760 requirement list in the workplace for at least a little 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.960 while longer until most people become vaccinated, and then, you know, 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.160 the the issue is that the masks work, you know, 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:48.600 despite the prior politicization of weather mask wearing was you know, 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.080 taking away my freedom and all that stuff. If you 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.680 look at any large Asian city, the deaths from COVID 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.160 are just a small fraction of what we experienced the 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:01.280 United States, New York City had deaths and Los Angeles 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.320 had twenty four thousand deaths. If you look the you know, 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.480 Hong Kong had two deaths, Singapore thirty one deaths. Even Tokyo, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.000 which quote had a problem, is fewer than two thousand deaths, 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.960 less than one tenth of what Los Angeles experienced. So 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.960 you know that it's kind of a large data point 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.159 that we have is that the masks and really work. 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:23.159 And I think the way to look at the CDC 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.240 guidance is that, Okay, once you're vaccinated, you've got just 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.080 as much protection as the mask, so you really don't 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.680 have to wear the mask. But they, in mind view 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.599 didn't emphasize enough that the vaccination was the key to 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.919 be masking, and you know, the average person here is okay, 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.800 masks aren't required any more. CDCs says so, and they 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.360 skip over the point of whether you're vaccinated or not. 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.080 And I think that's unfortunate, and that's what we're looking 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:48.880 at here. Do you think part of the reason for 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.840 the new CDC guidance was to encourage people to get vaccinated. Yeah, 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.360 that was part of the thinking from what the public 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:01.920 spokes person seven and Dr wilens that you know, okay, 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.200 you can now discard the mask if you're vaccinated. And 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.120 I just don't think that was a strong enough message. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.520 It was there, but it should have been the headline, 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:10.880 you know, it should have been the lead, as they 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.400 used to say, and and not buried it. Really, I 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.000 think got buried that the trade off or no mask 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.520 is getting the shot. And there's no question in my 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.240 mind that's what they're trying to accomplish. And so they're 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.840 trying to incent people to get the shot so then 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.200 you can, even under the honor system, get yourself free 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.440 of the mask. And Americans just aren't good at the 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.240 honor system or that smart, right. I think we've proved 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.599 that in really addressing these serious public health issues and 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.120 wearing the mask cool and they should have so I 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.080 think for any excuse not to where a mask, people 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:40.760 are going to do it. And if you're challenged there's 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.160 no vaccine passport, you just say, hey, I got vaccinated 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.920 and you're good to go. But that's not really what 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:47.960 people should be doing. They should be very serious about 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.120 getting the shot before discarding the mask. Also, is the 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.359 CDC guidance Is it a little confusing? Does it address 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.279 you know, what you have to do when you're on 0:05:56.279 --> 0:06:01.400 an airplane or schools or schools schools? They left local 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.120 the areas that they There are three areas they said 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.240 you still needed to wear masks no matter what, airplanes, 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:10.640 health care facilities, and a public transportation And I think 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.200 that's just a recognition that the vaccination rates are just 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.279 not high enough to support a full dy masking of 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:20.640 the public at this point. But again I was disappointed 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.160 in the emphasis and the messenging that that that really 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:24.800 didn't come through, at least to what I read and 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.400 heard over the last couple of days. The United Food 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.680 and Commercial Workers Union criticized the CDC for failing to 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.360 consider how the new policy would affect grocery store workers 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:37.920 who have to deal with customers who are not vaccinated, 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.080 right and there's no way you can force them to 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.200 wear a mask. Really, if you know, if the store 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.400 management isn't going to make continue a firm masking policy 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:46.880 at the front door, which many of them are not. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.080 You know, if you have a thousand people go to 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.640 grocery store right now, six hundred of them at least 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.479 are unvaccinated. So there's going to be continued spread of 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.520 COVID and that exposes the workers. I mean, the only 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:59.760 good news for the workers is the same for everyone else. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.520 If get your shot, the data show from the study 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.239 that CDC relied on that you are extremely well protected 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.839 against serious disease. It's it's so kind of everyone for 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.240 themselves sort of thing right now this weekend walking around 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:16.000 in New York City. I'm fully vaccinated, and I assume 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:17.760 a lot of other people are. But every time you 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:19.760 want to go into a store or somewhere, you have 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.240 to put the mask on anyway, because most of the 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.760 stores are requiring masks. Still, it gets to be, well, 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:30.840 why even bother taking it off when I'm walking around outside. Yeah, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:32.960 there is an element of that, and we're in a 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.800 transition period. And I just think, you know, if this 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.040 advice had come out, you know, a month from now 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:42.160 or or middle to late June, when maybe hopefully sixty 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.600 sixty five seventy percent of the population is vaccinated. Uh, 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.000 then I think people would have felt a lot more 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:52.200 comfortable in going maskless, and businesses probably would have had 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.480 less of a requirement. But it's it's very, very conflicting 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:57.480 right now for a business owner when you know sixty 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.800 years so percent of the people are not vaccinated and 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.280 you're supposing your your workforce and you you really can't 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.480 require your workforce to get vaccinated either, but you can 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.080 encourage everyone to get vaccinated, and that's not the best 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:09.880 you can do, and it just is going to be 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.600 messy for another six weeks or so in my view. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:18.080 So for employers and employers ask employees to give them 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.840 information about, you know, whether they've been vaccinated or not, 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.640 or does that impinge on their privacy rights? Yeah, that 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:29.280 varies by state. Uh. If the employer is paying generally 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:33.960 for healthcare, the employer under the federal law has the 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:36.920 right to know about the employee's health status just because 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.320 they're a pay or so there's there's you know, some 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.520 ability of the employer to gain information in that regard. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.920 Some states have more strict laws, however, and make it 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.120 on a need to know only basis. And right now, 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.800 you know, I think employers can ask in most places, 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.520 but the employee isn't required to tell them or to 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.160 get the vaccination. And I think that's going to change. Um, 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.520 you know, it's all but important differences to the status 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.480 of the shots. Right now, none of the shots are 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:09.480 fully authorized by the FDA. They're they're under the emergency 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.520 use authorization, which is different from full accepted authorization. And 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:19.440 once the FDA moves and has full accepted authorization, then 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.520 there are jurisdictions in which employers will be able to 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:26.120 mandate that employees get the shot, or school districts will 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.840 be able to mandate that the youngsters get the shot 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.280 before going back to school. So that's coming. It's it's 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.720 just not quite there yet because the vaccinations are not 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.440 fully approved by the FDA at this point. You know, 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.560 at the beginning, I heard a lot more talk about 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:43.600 herd immunity. Are they giving up on her immunity? No? 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.320 I mean the problem with her immunity is that it's 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:51.800 it's it's neither her nor immune. You know, we we have, unfortunately, 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:56.920 of virus that is highly mutigetic and their new variants 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:01.880 being created every day. So the number of people who 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.320 have to be fully vaccinated at a period of time 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.959 when the virus is stable was thought maybe to be 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.679 you know, in the but but what I've read recently, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.679 it's more like, because the stability of the virus is 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.400 very short lived, is it mutates, and then the number 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.000 of interactions that people have are given the transmissibility of 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.640 the virus just overwhelmed. What's called the our number of 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.280 the ability that transmitted. You know, if we could all 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:31.400 it's funny, but if we could all lock ourselves a 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:36.280 closet for fourteen days, this entire thing would go away. Yeah, 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.480 because it wouldn't be transmitted and the virus would die 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:42.160 in its hosts within fortune days. What about the variants, well, 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.000 you know they're a big problem. I mean, that's that's 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.200 the giant unknown. So that the two unknowns we have 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.040 and why you shouldn't throw out your mass quite yet 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.400 are one. How long the antibodies UH and T cell 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:59.640 response from the vaccinations persists. Everyone's hoping it's years um, 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.920 but it may be only a few months, and we 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.120 don't have that data point yet because people haven't been 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.720 vaccinated that long. UM. They're hoping a robust T cell 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:13.080 response UH continues for years in the vaccinations and that 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.760 would be terrific nows, but we don't know yet. We 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.160 won't know for you know, year or two is what 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.240 the persistence rate is. The second giant unknown is is 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.280 how the variants are going to affect both transmissibility and 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:31.720 and the ability to create serious or fatal disease. And 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.080 so we have to be prepared that one of these 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.240 variants is going to skip over the protection of the 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:44.720 vaccine and basically set us you know, at day zero 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.280 again that it's like a new virus being spread. And 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.320 that's the problem unvaccinated people is that they're like little 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.280 many laboratories formed for the mutation of the virus. Now, 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:59.040 the the the silver lining in the virus that might 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.800 skip over the currentvaccines is that the scientists have done 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.800 a darn fine job in creating these platforms and they 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:11.560 can quickly develop a booster shot or additional vaccine that 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.600 would be able to get on top of most any 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.480 variant that would come. You know our way. So it's 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.520 I think going to become something like the flu shot situation, 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.040 where you get one every year. It's not a great match, 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.200 but it keeps you from getting really sick. And I 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.240 think the COVID situation is going to be a lot 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.720 like that where it's going to continue to flourish. You know, 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:33.800 their partial the world to have no vaccine seeing yet. 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.079 So I mean there's literally hundreds of millions of people 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.320 who are able to get the disease transmitted and create 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.040 mutations and so new versions that are going to be 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.800 coming up for years to come at this rate, and 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.480 and it's going to be a couple of years before 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:51.840 we get the vaccination worldwide in a significant number of 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.480 people to to get on top of it. And that's 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.959 including keeping on top of variants. So you know, we're 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.439 in a nice kind of we've been vaccine dye during 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.440 a good spot right now and all the variants seem 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:07.120 to be reactive to the existing vaccines um but that 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:08.840 could change and it's not the end of the world, 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:13.680 but we need to be vigilant and to uh, you know, 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:15.720 follow guidance if if it turns out one of these 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.679 variances is not captured by the existing vaccines. Well, do 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.000 we even know do we need to get booster shots 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.800 within six months? Are hearing different? That sort of is 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.560 another problem problem, you know, it's a big problem. But but 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.240 but I mean we've we've only i mean the first 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:34.680 person vaccine in the United States was in November, so 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.440 I mean this is only six months right now. So 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.600 if we go find that person and take their blood 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.400 and analyze it, we can kind of figure out how 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.400 much you know, persistence there is. But there's there's such 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.360 a small group of people in November. It's really going 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.000 to be more like the summer or this fall before 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.839 we'll have enough people with the vaccines to be able 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.640 to analyze how persistent the antibodies were and how persistent 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.160 the T cell response was, So that that data point 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.160 as to how persist the stuff is will be coming 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.240 later this year, but again we'll only know that it's 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:06.959 at least good for six months or at least good 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.280 for a year, and it will be an ongoing study. 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.160 Is that you know how long you have to keep 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.800 going and whether you need boost shots. And my expectation 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.839 is the anybodies are going to go away within a 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:19.440 year and we're all going to have to get, as 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.040 I said, the annual shot, just like the flu shot, 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.440 vaccine passports. I mean, people were saying that wearing a 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.120 mask took away their liberty and their rights, and vaccine 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.000 passports seem to be even a step up from that. 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.640 But do you think that's the only way to really 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.560 tell because the honor system. I don't know about the 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.520 honor system, you know. I think think that the politicalization 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.680 of the masking and the and the passports is nonsense. 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.760 I mean, it's it's it's it's it's a health issue. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.080 Either you've got to take care of yourself or not 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:50.680 if you don't want to find I'm not going to 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.000 think a whole lot less of you, but it's pretty 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.320 dumb even that there's a fatal disease out there that 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.000 you can prevent. But I have got no question in 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.440 my mind if if President Trump has sort of and said, 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.400 you know, folks, we have a situation here. We all 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.400 got to wear masks and socially distant for a few 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.280 months while the scientists got on top of this, we 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.480 would have had a much different outcome in the United States. 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.119 We would have had hundreds of thousands of fewer deaths. 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.000 And it's as simple as that. You know, he enabled 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.400 a whole bunch of people into frankly some not great 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.200 thinking on the problem that this was somehow elimination of freedom. 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.200 We didn't have that problem in nineteen eighteen with the 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.240 flu that came through, people all mask up and wanted 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.080 to mask up and wanted to, you know, keep themselves healthy. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.880 You know this this this nonsense that you you're entitled 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.160 to not keep yourself healthy. Okay, fine, but that's that's 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.440 kind of a silly thought, right. I mean, you just 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:39.000 go out and step in the street and hope the 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.080 bus doesn't rend you over just because well, I'm I'm 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:42.880 got to be free to walk in the street. No, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.680 there's there's sensible limitations on what you can and can't do, 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:47.840 and wearing a mask during a time of pandemic as 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.280 a sensible limitation in my view. And and it's got 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:51.880 nothing to do with freedom. It's got to do with 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.600 sensible taking care of yourself and takeing care of others. 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:56.880 But enough for the message. But it's it's it's gonna 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.200 be a problem because it's always going to be unvaccinated 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.160 people who look into and new two as I said, 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.960 generate these mutations of the of the virus. Finally, some 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.920 states are offering, like Ohio offering to give a million 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:14.880 dollars to five vaccinated lottery winners, and New Jersey was 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:21.400 offering a beer with a vaccination. Do you approve of those? Yeah? Absolutely, 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:23.760 anything to get shots in arms. It's it's only going 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.840 to be to our our global benefit. I mean, we 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.680 we have to get shots in our own arms. We 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.080 have to get shots and all the arms in Africa 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.280 and Asia, you know, And it's going to be a 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.960 multi year project. This virus will persist long after, you know, 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.760 the next few weeks, and it's the next few weeks 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.600 is going to be confusion in America as as shop 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.520 owners and business owners trying to figure out what the 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:46.640 bring workforces back and what the rules of the road 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.160 are going to be. But the only way to really 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:49.760 get on top of it is to get you know, 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.640 vast majority of the population vaccinated against this thing. Thanks Rob. 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:59.840 That's Rob Fuller, Apartment Nelson Hardeman Cat Employers legally separate 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.720 vaccinated and unvaccinated workers by shift or floor, for example, 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.720 and if they can, is it a good idea? Joining 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:13.280 me is Bloomberglan Labor and Employment reporter Paige Smith. Can 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:21.040 employers generally require workers to get a COVID nineteen vaccine? Yes, absolutely, 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.400 so I think that, you know, as more vaccines become 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:29.360 widely available, generally and legally, most employers really can require 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:33.639 workers to receive the vaccine upon returning to to work. 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.879 But you know, I would say that those mandates have 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.800 been sort of rare um and there are a lot 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.760 of workplaces that are going to continue to have a 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.280 sort of mix of vaccinated workers and unvaccinated workers. But 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.200 legally employers can require that. So now the question can 0:17:54.240 --> 0:18:00.800 employers legally separate vaccinated and unvaccinated workers? Definitely. So we've 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.320 been hearing from a number of attorneys that they've been 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.239 feelding requests from employers about whether they could segregate you know, 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.080 vaccinated from unvaccinated workers. So we decided to sort of 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.679 dig into it with with this. But the answer that 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.920 we sort of found was that yes, employers can legally 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:22.120 separate vaccinated workers from unvaccinated workers, whether it's by you know, 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.040 having a shift that is of unvaccinated workers or having 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.600 a floor for vaccinated workers. There are sort of a 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.720 few ways that people could feasibly do that. But UM, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:34.800 what we also found is that folks are sort of 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.560 cautioning against it, and there has been recent guidance that 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:43.320 says that fully, if you're fully inoculated against COVID nineteen, 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:49.200 folks can mostly shed their mass in the workplace. But UM, legally, yes, 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:54.600 workers can be separated based on their vaccination status. So 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.800 now are there any risks? For example, if a worker 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:03.240 won't get vaccinated because of religious reasons or religious objections, 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.520 could that worker then file some kind of lawsuit if 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:12.639 that worker is segregated. So any sort of decision like 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.119 this UM in the workplace comes with some comes with 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.359 some legal risks. But I think that in this situation, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:25.960 segregating workers definitely poses some UM discrimination risks because there 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.840 are workers who can't get vascinated because of health reasons 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:34.439 or for because of religious objections for example. So you know, 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.080 if you have a worker who won't receive the shop 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.200 based on disability or religious belief UM, then they could 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.800 theoretically come back and say to the employer, you know 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.840 you're discriminating against me being because of UM. Because of 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.240 that or UM. If those workers I should be clear, 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:56.119 if those workers suffer negative consequences as a result of 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:01.840 being segregated because of their disability or religious um belief. 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:06.840 For example, they could bring allegations of discrimination against an employer. 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.760 So one lawyer told you that any company contemplating even 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:16.919 contemplating a separation policy should survey workers. What kind of 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.880 survey would you do? That's a good question, I think 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.240 part of it as well as were We're not totally 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.280 sure at this point in time how many employers have 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:31.320 contemplated separating workers based on vaccination status. Um. We haven't 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:35.760 heard of this sort of being a widely implemented policy, 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.400 So I can't speak exactly to what sort of survey 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.600 would be conducted, But we do know that employers are 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.000 thinking about this and that they have asked their attorneys 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:50.199 how they should proceed. And employers are allowed to ask 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:57.359 employees if they've been vaccinated. Correct? Correct. If employers wish 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.960 to ask employees whether they've been backcinated, they need to 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.280 do so in a way that asked all employees that 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.560 you know, you sort of can't single out one or 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.399 two employees. Mac have you been vaccinated? Needs to be 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:14.879 sort of a company wide and business related inquiry. You 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:20.120 talked to Nicole Greason, director of occupational Hygiene and Safety 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.439 for the Duke University Health System, said it's just not 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:28.600 worth the logistical hassle of trying to separate vaccinated and 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.680 unvaccinated workers. What did she mean? You know, if you're 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:34.720 in a workplace and you're going to go through the 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.560 process of separating these workers, you know that that's quite 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:43.360 a culture shift, just from you know, legal considerations aside. 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.720 That's a huge culture shift to say, Okay, you're on 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:49.359 the unvaccinated shifts, have a great work day. Um, I 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.440 think that is. That's sort of what was um, what 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.920 was implied. But I should also say that a number 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.560 of experts pointed out that, you know, dividing workers wouldn't 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.680 really be feasible and also might not make sense from 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:05.600 a health and safety standpoint, because workers who are fully 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.640 vaccinated and not wearing masks are already at a low 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.240 risk of infection, and you know, mixing them in with 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:19.639