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Speaker 1: More than a dozen states quickly embraced new CDC guidelines

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Speaker 1: that say fully vaccinated Americans can ditch their masks and

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Speaker 1: forego social distancing in most cases. But the sudden change

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Speaker 1: has led to questions and concerns from those who say

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Speaker 1: there's no easy way for businesses and others to determine

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Speaker 1: who's fully vaccinated and who's not. Joining me as Rob Fuller,

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Speaker 1: a partner with Nelson Hardeman, so the new CDC guidance

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Speaker 1: came as a surprise to many health and state officials.

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Speaker 1: Should it have been done so seemingly abruptly, well, I

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Speaker 1: think the guidance itself was science based. The problem, I

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Speaker 1: think is messaging. You know, we're on the honor system

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Speaker 1: whether you've had a vaccination or The guidance, based on

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Speaker 1: a study of four thousand healthcare workers, basically proved the

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Speaker 1: efficacy of the vaccines. Since the vaccination's work, they protect

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Speaker 1: you against serious COVID disease, and so when compared to

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Speaker 1: additional safety you might get by continued mask wearing and

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Speaker 1: social distancing, uh, it was negligible. You're not measurable in

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Speaker 1: the study. So the guidance did follow the sign Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: like here in California, we don't have very many people vaccinated.

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Speaker 1: In the big scheme of things, more than six the

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Speaker 1: people remain unvaccinated. So it's confusing for business owners and

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Speaker 1: everyone else that you know, if you let a hundred

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Speaker 1: people in your store, statistically you know that more than

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Speaker 1: sixty of them are unvaccinated, and so you, you know,

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Speaker 1: for the safety of your own workers, might well consider

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Speaker 1: continuing a mask mandate on your own regardless of what

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Speaker 1: is the public perceived CDC guidance that masks are no

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Speaker 1: longer necessary. Well, also, it seems like there are problems

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Speaker 1: because the state guidance is different from the CDC guidance.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned California is one place where that is

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Speaker 1: true until today. New York is now going to lift

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Speaker 1: it's state mask mandate, But in other states there's a conflict.

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Speaker 1: So what do businesses do. Yeah, I think it's a

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Speaker 1: messaging conflict. But when they lift their mask guides in

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Speaker 1: New York today, for instance, it's still recommends that if

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Speaker 1: you're unvaccinated that you continue to wear a mask. It

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Speaker 1: just wasn't going to be a matter of requirement. Uh.

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Speaker 1: CDC guidance also continues mask wearing for public transportation and

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Speaker 1: plane travel. But a private business vers is in a

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Speaker 1: tough situation. Obviously you want to cater to the customer,

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Speaker 1: but you also, under OSHA and other laws, have a

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Speaker 1: duty to keep your workforce safe. And knowing that most

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Speaker 1: people are not vaccinated yet, you know, if you're a

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Speaker 1: business owner, you could just very sanely decide that that

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Speaker 1: the best thing for now, for another month or two

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Speaker 1: is to continue to require masks. And of course that

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Speaker 1: produces what we see on TV with angry, uh maskless

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Speaker 1: people being denied entrance to certain stores that have decided

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Speaker 1: to do that because of all the prior politicalization and

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Speaker 1: you know, guidance shifting quickly. It is a messaging mess

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Speaker 1: and leaves the individual business person in quite a laundry.

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Speaker 1: The guidance from the CDC was rolled out on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: OSHA hasn't substantially changed its masking recommendations in almost four months.

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Speaker 1: That's correct. OSHA will err on the side of work

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Speaker 1: for safety and will be much slower than the other

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Speaker 1: agencies and recommending discontinuation of masks. And I think you know,

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Speaker 1: common sense would tell you that if most people are

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Speaker 1: still unvaccinated, probably makes sense to keep masks on the

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Speaker 1: requirement list in the workplace for at least a little

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Speaker 1: while longer until most people become vaccinated, and then, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the issue is that the masks work, you know,

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Speaker 1: despite the prior politicization of weather mask wearing was you know,

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Speaker 1: taking away my freedom and all that stuff. If you

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Speaker 1: look at any large Asian city, the deaths from COVID

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Speaker 1: are just a small fraction of what we experienced the

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Speaker 1: United States, New York City had deaths and Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: had twenty four thousand deaths. If you look the you know,

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong had two deaths, Singapore thirty one deaths. Even Tokyo,

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Speaker 1: which quote had a problem, is fewer than two thousand deaths,

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Speaker 1: less than one tenth of what Los Angeles experienced. So

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Speaker 1: you know that it's kind of a large data point

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Speaker 1: that we have is that the masks and really work.

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Speaker 1: And I think the way to look at the CDC

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Speaker 1: guidance is that, Okay, once you're vaccinated, you've got just

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Speaker 1: as much protection as the mask, so you really don't

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Speaker 1: have to wear the mask. But they, in mind view

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Speaker 1: didn't emphasize enough that the vaccination was the key to

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Speaker 1: be masking, and you know, the average person here is okay,

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Speaker 1: masks aren't required any more. CDCs says so, and they

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Speaker 1: skip over the point of whether you're vaccinated or not.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's unfortunate, and that's what we're looking

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Speaker 1: at here. Do you think part of the reason for

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Speaker 1: the new CDC guidance was to encourage people to get vaccinated. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was part of the thinking from what the public

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Speaker 1: spokes person seven and Dr wilens that you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: you can now discard the mask if you're vaccinated. And

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Speaker 1: I just don't think that was a strong enough message.

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Speaker 1: It was there, but it should have been the headline,

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Speaker 1: you know, it should have been the lead, as they

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Speaker 1: used to say, and and not buried it. Really, I

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Speaker 1: think got buried that the trade off or no mask

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Speaker 1: is getting the shot. And there's no question in my

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Speaker 1: mind that's what they're trying to accomplish. And so they're

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Speaker 1: trying to incent people to get the shot so then

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Speaker 1: you can, even under the honor system, get yourself free

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Speaker 1: of the mask. And Americans just aren't good at the

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Speaker 1: honor system or that smart, right. I think we've proved

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Speaker 1: that in really addressing these serious public health issues and

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Speaker 1: wearing the mask cool and they should have so I

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Speaker 1: think for any excuse not to where a mask, people

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Speaker 1: are going to do it. And if you're challenged there's

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Speaker 1: no vaccine passport, you just say, hey, I got vaccinated

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Speaker 1: and you're good to go. But that's not really what

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Speaker 1: people should be doing. They should be very serious about

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Speaker 1: getting the shot before discarding the mask. Also, is the

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Speaker 1: CDC guidance Is it a little confusing? Does it address

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Speaker 1: you know, what you have to do when you're on

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Speaker 1: an airplane or schools or schools schools? They left local

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Speaker 1: the areas that they There are three areas they said

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Speaker 1: you still needed to wear masks no matter what, airplanes,

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Speaker 1: health care facilities, and a public transportation And I think

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Speaker 1: that's just a recognition that the vaccination rates are just

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Speaker 1: not high enough to support a full dy masking of

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Speaker 1: the public at this point. But again I was disappointed

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Speaker 1: in the emphasis and the messenging that that that really

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Speaker 1: didn't come through, at least to what I read and

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Speaker 1: heard over the last couple of days. The United Food

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Speaker 1: and Commercial Workers Union criticized the CDC for failing to

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Speaker 1: consider how the new policy would affect grocery store workers

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Speaker 1: who have to deal with customers who are not vaccinated,

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Speaker 1: right and there's no way you can force them to

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Speaker 1: wear a mask. Really, if you know, if the store

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Speaker 1: management isn't going to make continue a firm masking policy

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Speaker 1: at the front door, which many of them are not.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you have a thousand people go to

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Speaker 1: grocery store right now, six hundred of them at least

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Speaker 1: are unvaccinated. So there's going to be continued spread of

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Speaker 1: COVID and that exposes the workers. I mean, the only

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Speaker 1: good news for the workers is the same for everyone else.

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Speaker 1: If get your shot, the data show from the study

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Speaker 1: that CDC relied on that you are extremely well protected

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Speaker 1: against serious disease. It's it's so kind of everyone for

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Speaker 1: themselves sort of thing right now this weekend walking around

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Speaker 1: in New York City. I'm fully vaccinated, and I assume

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Speaker 1: a lot of other people are. But every time you

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Speaker 1: want to go into a store or somewhere, you have

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Speaker 1: to put the mask on anyway, because most of the

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Speaker 1: stores are requiring masks. Still, it gets to be, well,

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Speaker 1: why even bother taking it off when I'm walking around outside. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is an element of that, and we're in a

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Speaker 1: transition period. And I just think, you know, if this

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Speaker 1: advice had come out, you know, a month from now

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Speaker 1: or or middle to late June, when maybe hopefully sixty

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Speaker 1: sixty five seventy percent of the population is vaccinated. Uh,

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Speaker 1: then I think people would have felt a lot more

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Speaker 1: comfortable in going maskless, and businesses probably would have had

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Speaker 1: less of a requirement. But it's it's very, very conflicting

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Speaker 1: right now for a business owner when you know sixty

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Speaker 1: years so percent of the people are not vaccinated and

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Speaker 1: you're supposing your your workforce and you you really can't

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Speaker 1: require your workforce to get vaccinated either, but you can

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Speaker 1: encourage everyone to get vaccinated, and that's not the best

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Speaker 1: you can do, and it just is going to be

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Speaker 1: messy for another six weeks or so in my view.

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Speaker 1: So for employers and employers ask employees to give them

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Speaker 1: information about, you know, whether they've been vaccinated or not,

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Speaker 1: or does that impinge on their privacy rights? Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: varies by state. Uh. If the employer is paying generally

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Speaker 1: for healthcare, the employer under the federal law has the

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Speaker 1: right to know about the employee's health status just because

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Speaker 1: they're a pay or so there's there's you know, some

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Speaker 1: ability of the employer to gain information in that regard.

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Speaker 1: Some states have more strict laws, however, and make it

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Speaker 1: on a need to know only basis. And right now,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think employers can ask in most places,

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Speaker 1: but the employee isn't required to tell them or to

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Speaker 1: get the vaccination. And I think that's going to change. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's all but important differences to the status

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Speaker 1: of the shots. Right now, none of the shots are

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Speaker 1: fully authorized by the FDA. They're they're under the emergency

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Speaker 1: use authorization, which is different from full accepted authorization. And

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Speaker 1: once the FDA moves and has full accepted authorization, then

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Speaker 1: there are jurisdictions in which employers will be able to

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Speaker 1: mandate that employees get the shot, or school districts will

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Speaker 1: be able to mandate that the youngsters get the shot

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Speaker 1: before going back to school. So that's coming. It's it's

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Speaker 1: just not quite there yet because the vaccinations are not

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Speaker 1: fully approved by the FDA at this point. You know,

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Speaker 1: at the beginning, I heard a lot more talk about

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Speaker 1: herd immunity. Are they giving up on her immunity? No?

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Speaker 1: I mean the problem with her immunity is that it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's neither her nor immune. You know, we we have, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: of virus that is highly mutigetic and their new variants

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Speaker 1: being created every day. So the number of people who

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Speaker 1: have to be fully vaccinated at a period of time

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Speaker 1: when the virus is stable was thought maybe to be

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Speaker 1: you know, in the but but what I've read recently,

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Speaker 1: it's more like, because the stability of the virus is

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Speaker 1: very short lived, is it mutates, and then the number

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Speaker 1: of interactions that people have are given the transmissibility of

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Speaker 1: the virus just overwhelmed. What's called the our number of

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Speaker 1: the ability that transmitted. You know, if we could all

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Speaker 1: it's funny, but if we could all lock ourselves a

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Speaker 1: closet for fourteen days, this entire thing would go away. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it wouldn't be transmitted and the virus would die

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Speaker 1: in its hosts within fortune days. What about the variants, well,

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Speaker 1: you know they're a big problem. I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 1: the giant unknown. So that the two unknowns we have

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Speaker 1: and why you shouldn't throw out your mass quite yet

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Speaker 1: are one. How long the antibodies UH and T cell

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Speaker 1: response from the vaccinations persists. Everyone's hoping it's years um,

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Speaker 1: but it may be only a few months, and we

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Speaker 1: don't have that data point yet because people haven't been

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Speaker 1: vaccinated that long. UM. They're hoping a robust T cell

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Speaker 1: response UH continues for years in the vaccinations and that

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Speaker 1: would be terrific nows, but we don't know yet. We

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Speaker 1: won't know for you know, year or two is what

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Speaker 1: the persistence rate is. The second giant unknown is is

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Speaker 1: how the variants are going to affect both transmissibility and

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Speaker 1: and the ability to create serious or fatal disease. And

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Speaker 1: so we have to be prepared that one of these

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Speaker 1: variants is going to skip over the protection of the

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Speaker 1: vaccine and basically set us you know, at day zero

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Speaker 1: again that it's like a new virus being spread. And

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Speaker 1: that's the problem unvaccinated people is that they're like little

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Speaker 1: many laboratories formed for the mutation of the virus. Now,

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Speaker 1: the the the silver lining in the virus that might

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Speaker 1: skip over the currentvaccines is that the scientists have done

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Speaker 1: a darn fine job in creating these platforms and they

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Speaker 1: can quickly develop a booster shot or additional vaccine that

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Speaker 1: would be able to get on top of most any

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Speaker 1: variant that would come. You know our way. So it's

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Speaker 1: I think going to become something like the flu shot situation,

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Speaker 1: where you get one every year. It's not a great match,

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Speaker 1: but it keeps you from getting really sick. And I

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Speaker 1: think the COVID situation is going to be a lot

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Speaker 1: like that where it's going to continue to flourish. You know,

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Speaker 1: their partial the world to have no vaccine seeing yet.

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Speaker 1: So I mean there's literally hundreds of millions of people

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Speaker 1: who are able to get the disease transmitted and create

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Speaker 1: mutations and so new versions that are going to be

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Speaker 1: coming up for years to come at this rate, and

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Speaker 1: and it's going to be a couple of years before

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Speaker 1: we get the vaccination worldwide in a significant number of

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Speaker 1: people to to get on top of it. And that's

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Speaker 1: including keeping on top of variants. So you know, we're

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Speaker 1: in a nice kind of we've been vaccine dye during

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Speaker 1: a good spot right now and all the variants seem

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Speaker 1: to be reactive to the existing vaccines um but that

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Speaker 1: could change and it's not the end of the world,

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Speaker 1: but we need to be vigilant and to uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: follow guidance if if it turns out one of these

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Speaker 1: variances is not captured by the existing vaccines. Well, do

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Speaker 1: we even know do we need to get booster shots

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Speaker 1: within six months? Are hearing different? That sort of is

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Speaker 1: another problem problem, you know, it's a big problem. But but

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Speaker 1: but I mean we've we've only i mean the first

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Speaker 1: person vaccine in the United States was in November, so

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Speaker 1: I mean this is only six months right now. So

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Speaker 1: if we go find that person and take their blood

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Speaker 1: and analyze it, we can kind of figure out how

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Speaker 1: much you know, persistence there is. But there's there's such

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Speaker 1: a small group of people in November. It's really going

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Speaker 1: to be more like the summer or this fall before

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Speaker 1: we'll have enough people with the vaccines to be able

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Speaker 1: to analyze how persistent the antibodies were and how persistent

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Speaker 1: the T cell response was, So that that data point

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Speaker 1: as to how persist the stuff is will be coming

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Speaker 1: later this year, but again we'll only know that it's

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Speaker 1: at least good for six months or at least good

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Speaker 1: for a year, and it will be an ongoing study.

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Speaker 1: Is that you know how long you have to keep

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Speaker 1: going and whether you need boost shots. And my expectation

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Speaker 1: is the anybodies are going to go away within a

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Speaker 1: year and we're all going to have to get, as

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Speaker 1: I said, the annual shot, just like the flu shot,

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Speaker 1: vaccine passports. I mean, people were saying that wearing a

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Speaker 1: mask took away their liberty and their rights, and vaccine

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Speaker 1: passports seem to be even a step up from that.

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Speaker 1: But do you think that's the only way to really

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Speaker 1: tell because the honor system. I don't know about the

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Speaker 1: honor system, you know. I think think that the politicalization

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Speaker 1: of the masking and the and the passports is nonsense.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's it's it's a health issue.

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Speaker 1: Either you've got to take care of yourself or not

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Speaker 1: if you don't want to find I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: think a whole lot less of you, but it's pretty

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Speaker 1: dumb even that there's a fatal disease out there that

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Speaker 1: you can prevent. But I have got no question in

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Speaker 1: my mind if if President Trump has sort of and said,

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Speaker 1: you know, folks, we have a situation here. We all

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Speaker 1: got to wear masks and socially distant for a few

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Speaker 1: months while the scientists got on top of this, we

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Speaker 1: would have had a much different outcome in the United States.

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Speaker 1: We would have had hundreds of thousands of fewer deaths.

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Speaker 1: And it's as simple as that. You know, he enabled

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people into frankly some not great

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Speaker 1: thinking on the problem that this was somehow elimination of freedom.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have that problem in nineteen eighteen with the

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Speaker 1: flu that came through, people all mask up and wanted

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Speaker 1: to mask up and wanted to, you know, keep themselves healthy.

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Speaker 1: You know this this this nonsense that you you're entitled

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Speaker 1: to not keep yourself healthy. Okay, fine, but that's that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a silly thought, right. I mean, you just

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Speaker 1: go out and step in the street and hope the

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Speaker 1: bus doesn't rend you over just because well, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: got to be free to walk in the street. No,

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Speaker 1: there's there's sensible limitations on what you can and can't do,

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Speaker 1: and wearing a mask during a time of pandemic as

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Speaker 1: a sensible limitation in my view. And and it's got

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with freedom. It's got to do with

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Speaker 1: sensible taking care of yourself and takeing care of others.

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Speaker 1: But enough for the message. But it's it's it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a problem because it's always going to be unvaccinated

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Speaker 1: people who look into and new two as I said,

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Speaker 1: generate these mutations of the of the virus. Finally, some

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Speaker 1: states are offering, like Ohio offering to give a million

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Speaker 1: dollars to five vaccinated lottery winners, and New Jersey was

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Speaker 1: offering a beer with a vaccination. Do you approve of those? Yeah? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: anything to get shots in arms. It's it's only going

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Speaker 1: to be to our our global benefit. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: we have to get shots in our own arms. We

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Speaker 1: have to get shots and all the arms in Africa

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Speaker 1: and Asia, you know, And it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: multi year project. This virus will persist long after, you know,

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Speaker 1: the next few weeks, and it's the next few weeks

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Speaker 1: is going to be confusion in America as as shop

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Speaker 1: owners and business owners trying to figure out what the

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Speaker 1: bring workforces back and what the rules of the road

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Speaker 1: are going to be. But the only way to really

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Speaker 1: get on top of it is to get you know,

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Speaker 1: vast majority of the population vaccinated against this thing. Thanks Rob.

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Speaker 1: That's Rob Fuller, Apartment Nelson Hardeman Cat Employers legally separate

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Speaker 1: vaccinated and unvaccinated workers by shift or floor, for example,

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Speaker 1: and if they can, is it a good idea? Joining

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Speaker 1: me is Bloomberglan Labor and Employment reporter Paige Smith. Can

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Speaker 1: employers generally require workers to get a COVID nineteen vaccine? Yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: so I think that, you know, as more vaccines become

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Speaker 1: widely available, generally and legally, most employers really can require

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Speaker 1: workers to receive the vaccine upon returning to to work.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I would say that those mandates have

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Speaker 1: been sort of rare um and there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of workplaces that are going to continue to have a

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Speaker 1: sort of mix of vaccinated workers and unvaccinated workers. But

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Speaker 1: legally employers can require that. So now the question can

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Speaker 1: employers legally separate vaccinated and unvaccinated workers? Definitely. So we've

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Speaker 1: been hearing from a number of attorneys that they've been

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Speaker 1: feelding requests from employers about whether they could segregate you know,

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Speaker 1: vaccinated from unvaccinated workers. So we decided to sort of

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Speaker 1: dig into it with with this. But the answer that

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Speaker 1: we sort of found was that yes, employers can legally

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Speaker 1: separate vaccinated workers from unvaccinated workers, whether it's by you know,

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Speaker 1: having a shift that is of unvaccinated workers or having

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Speaker 1: a floor for vaccinated workers. There are sort of a

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Speaker 1: few ways that people could feasibly do that. But UM,

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Speaker 1: what we also found is that folks are sort of

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Speaker 1: cautioning against it, and there has been recent guidance that

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Speaker 1: says that fully, if you're fully inoculated against COVID nineteen,

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Speaker 1: folks can mostly shed their mass in the workplace. But UM, legally, yes,

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Speaker 1: workers can be separated based on their vaccination status. So

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Speaker 1: now are there any risks? For example, if a worker

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Speaker 1: won't get vaccinated because of religious reasons or religious objections,

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Speaker 1: could that worker then file some kind of lawsuit if

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Speaker 1: that worker is segregated. So any sort of decision like

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Speaker 1: this UM in the workplace comes with some comes with

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Speaker 1: some legal risks. But I think that in this situation,

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Speaker 1: segregating workers definitely poses some UM discrimination risks because there

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Speaker 1: are workers who can't get vascinated because of health reasons

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Speaker 1: or for because of religious objections for example. So you know,

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Speaker 1: if you have a worker who won't receive the shop

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Speaker 1: based on disability or religious belief UM, then they could

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Speaker 1: theoretically come back and say to the employer, you know

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Speaker 1: you're discriminating against me being because of UM. Because of

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Speaker 1: that or UM. If those workers I should be clear,

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Speaker 1: if those workers suffer negative consequences as a result of

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Speaker 1: being segregated because of their disability or religious um belief.

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Speaker 1: For example, they could bring allegations of discrimination against an employer.

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Speaker 1: So one lawyer told you that any company contemplating even

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Speaker 1: contemplating a separation policy should survey workers. What kind of

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Speaker 1: survey would you do? That's a good question, I think

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Speaker 1: part of it as well as were We're not totally

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Speaker 1: sure at this point in time how many employers have

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Speaker 1: contemplated separating workers based on vaccination status. Um. We haven't

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Speaker 1: heard of this sort of being a widely implemented policy,

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Speaker 1: So I can't speak exactly to what sort of survey

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Speaker 1: would be conducted, But we do know that employers are

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Speaker 1: thinking about this and that they have asked their attorneys

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Speaker 1: how they should proceed. And employers are allowed to ask

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Speaker 1: employees if they've been vaccinated. Correct? Correct. If employers wish

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Speaker 1: to ask employees whether they've been backcinated, they need to

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Speaker 1: do so in a way that asked all employees that

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Speaker 1: you know, you sort of can't single out one or

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Speaker 1: two employees. Mac have you been vaccinated? Needs to be

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Speaker 1: sort of a company wide and business related inquiry. You

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Speaker 1: talked to Nicole Greason, director of occupational Hygiene and Safety

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Speaker 1: for the Duke University Health System, said it's just not

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Speaker 1: worth the logistical hassle of trying to separate vaccinated and

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Speaker 1: unvaccinated workers. What did she mean? You know, if you're

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Speaker 1: in a workplace and you're going to go through the

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Speaker 1: process of separating these workers, you know that that's quite

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Speaker 1: a culture shift, just from you know, legal considerations aside.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge culture shift to say, Okay, you're on

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Speaker 1: the unvaccinated shifts, have a great work day. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think that is. That's sort of what was um, what

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Speaker 1: was implied. But I should also say that a number

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Speaker 1: of experts pointed out that, you know, dividing workers wouldn't

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Speaker 1: really be feasible and also might not make sense from

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Speaker 1: a health and safety standpoint, because workers who are fully

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Speaker 1: vaccinated and not wearing masks are already at a low

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Speaker 1: risk of infection, and you know, mixing them in with

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Speaker 1: unvaccinated workers who are wearing masks wouldn't necessarily increase infection risks.

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Speaker 1: That's at least what the health and safety experts told us.

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Speaker 1: So page did most of the lawyers you spoke to

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Speaker 1: think that you could separate workers, but it just wasn't

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Speaker 1: a good idea to do that, correct exactly. That was

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Speaker 1: sort of the takeaways the idea that legally you're permitted

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Speaker 1: to do it. Employee employers are asking about how they

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Speaker 1: can do it and if they should do it, and

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Speaker 1: lawyers are essentially saying, yes, you can do it, but

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Speaker 1: it's probably not a great idea one about OSHA. Has

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Speaker 1: OSHA released any new guidance since the CDC came out

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Speaker 1: with the with the guidance that people who were vaccinated

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Speaker 1: can basically go mask less in most places. OSHA has

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Speaker 1: said that, um, that employers should essentially follow the new

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Speaker 1: CDC mask guidance, So they have kind of responded after

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Speaker 1: the new CDC guidance was released, but um, it was

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Speaker 1: just sort of an advice to say that, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: they'll be updating their materials on their website and to

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Speaker 1: for employers to check back essentially. And you spoke to

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Speaker 1: Debbie Berkowitz, the National Employment Law Projects, Workers Safety and

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Speaker 1: Health Program Director, and she said, in some settings, there's

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Speaker 1: really no way to segregate workers. Absolutely, So there are

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Speaker 1: you know, you can imagine that there are workplaces where

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Speaker 1: this could be an option, for example, if you're in

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Speaker 1: an office building or sort of a corporate setting. But

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Speaker 1: there are also places where this just isn't feasible at all.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, kind of silly to imagine. If you're

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Speaker 1: in a grocery store for example, um, you know, trying

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Speaker 1: to separate your vaccinated from your unvaccinated workers, or if

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Speaker 1: you're in a factory setting or in a warehouse for examples,

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Speaker 1: just the idea of segregating he folks is is not

432
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: really feasible. So now some states are passing their own

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00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: rules about this, and they seem to fall into two camps.

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00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: So some are considering approving employers requiring proof of vaccinations

435
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: before workers can stop wearing a face mask. Tell us

436
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: about those states and what they're thinking about doing. Yes,

437
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: So there are a number of states that have sort

438
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: of weighed in on this since um, you know, since

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00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: the CDC really it's it's guidance, so um, the Oregon

440
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: Occupational Safety UM Agency has weighed in, and and California

441
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: has weighed in as well. So Oregon, for example, issued

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00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: some guidance that said that employers must verify that a

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00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,479
Speaker 1: worker is fully vaccinated before having them you know, giving

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00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: them the opportunity to remove face coverings and sort of

445
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: ignore social distancing requirements. But um, you know, to flip

446
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: over to California, California is saying that, UM, I should

447
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: say they're proposing because it hasn't been fully approved yet.

448
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: UM that employer has must have documentation to show that

449
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: a worker has been vaccinated before sort of permitting them

450
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: to relax UM masking and social distancing requirements. So that changed.

451
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: The California change hasn't yet been fully approved. But those

452
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: are sort of two examples of states weighing in on

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00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: the issue, and other states are passing laws that do

454
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: the opposite, that limit employer's ability to set workplace policies

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00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: based on whether or not a worker is vaccinated or

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00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: not vaccinated. Yes, so, for example on UM earlier this

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00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: month May in on May seven, montanas Um implemented a

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00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: law that banned employers from making hiring decisions or setting

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00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: rules based on vaccination status. Are there just a few

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00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: states doing this addressing this issue at this point in time?

461
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: Are a few states that we you know, as we

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00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: sort of mentioned, that have weighed in on the issue, UM,

463
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: but we can't be sure of who else might weigh in,

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00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: especially since the cd C guidance is still relatively new.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for being on the Bloomberg Laws Show page. That's

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00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law, Labor Unemployment Reporter Paid Smith and that's it

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00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: for the edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you

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00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: can always at the latest legal news on our Bloomberg

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00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcast, Spotify

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00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com slash podcast slash Law.

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00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 1: I'm June Grossow. Thanks so much for listening. Please turn

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00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten pm

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00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: Eastern idear on Bloomberg Radio.