1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Sign Stuff, a production of iHeartRadio. I'm 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: Hoore Cham and in this short bonus episode, we're answering 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: the question can a cat talk to a dog? This 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: is a companion piece to our recent full episode about 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: animal communication. If you haven't listened to that one, be 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: sure to check it out. But in this mini episode, 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: I catch up to my friend and science fiction author 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: Mary Robinette Kowal. Mary Robinette was actually the first guest 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: we ever had on the program for the episode to 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: our Pets Lie to us, and I thought it'd be 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: great to check in with her since she's the one 12 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: who told us about the whole movement to teach pets 13 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: to talk. She's taught both her cat and her dog 14 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: to use a communication device, and so in this conversation, 15 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: we'll finally find out what happens when a dog and 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: a cat speak the same language. 17 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: Joy. 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,959 Speaker 1: Hey, Mary Robinette, how are you. I'm good. 19 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: Good to see you again. 20 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so great to hear from you again, my 21 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: first guest ever. That's right, I feel so fancy And 22 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: now you're back. 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: I am happy to be back. You've done some pretty 24 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 2: cool episodes so far about different animals that I've been 25 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 2: excited to listen to. 26 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, what did you think? 27 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, the one about animal's perceptions of death. I was like, 28 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: pretty cool and parts of kind of intense. 29 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: Yes, that's been one of my favorite episodes to do. Well, 30 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: it's great to catch up with you. The last time 31 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: we talked, you asked this whether pets lie because you 32 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: had taught your cat to talk through the system, and 33 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: so I just wanted to learn a little bit more 34 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: about the origins of this with you. So when did 35 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: you first hear about this idea that you could maybe 36 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: teach your cat to talk? Sure? 37 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: So I was researching a novel. I wanted to look 38 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: into animal language acquisition and trying to get a sense 39 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: of what sort of vocabularies were plausible for an animal 40 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: to have, And in doing so, I stumbled across a 41 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: couple of different talking animal all accounts, one of which 42 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: was Christina Hunger and I saw it and initially was 43 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: very skeptical. But the more videos I watched, I started 44 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 2: watching what about Bunny and There's a sheep a doodle 45 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: and Billy speaks who was the first cat that was 46 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 2: doing this? And realized, oh, it doesn't actually matter if 47 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 2: it's a language, it is definitely communication. 48 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 1: Okay, So give me some examples of communication moments would 49 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,119 Speaker 1: that have been significant or interesting? 50 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: I'll tell you the first one that made me go, oh, 51 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: this is the thing that's really happening. I think she 52 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: had only like five buttons or so at this point, 53 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 2: and she pressed open and I opened the door to 54 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 2: the apartment and she said open, and like, Elsie, the 55 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: door's open. Open, Open, Elsie, the door is open. And 56 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: then she says open help, and I'm like, okay, well 57 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: that's new. So I stood up and she walked away 58 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: from the button board to the bedroom door, which was closed, 59 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: and I opened the door and she be lined for 60 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: her water and started drinking, and I thought, this is amazing. 61 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: And then after she finished drinking the water, she walked 62 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: back to the and she said open love you. 63 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: Right. 64 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: What? 65 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? 66 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: I don't know how to read that any other way 67 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 2: than that she was thanking me with the tools that 68 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: she had available. 69 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: Wow. Can you please teach my teenage kids this fIF courtesy? 70 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: Maybe just get your teenager some buttons? 71 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that might be better. Yeah, you said you also 72 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: had an example where you're like, what's going on? Right? 73 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: So this is the one that I offer to people 74 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 2: as this is why you should do this with your pets. 75 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: So Elsie has a knee injury. We don't know what happened. 76 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: She sits with her leg sticking out to the side, 77 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: but the vets have checked it out and it's all 78 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: been fine and doesn't seem to cause her any problems. 79 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: And a couple of months ago, Elsie started saying various 80 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: combinations of leg and ouch. And because the system logs 81 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: her button presses automatically for me, I could see that 82 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: leg was not a word that she used very often 83 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: at all. She'd only used it two other times this year, 84 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: and not with the word ouch. Like I've seen her 85 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: say ouch and have a hair bowl or ouch when 86 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: her feelings are hurt, but like an ouch that was 87 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: new and so I feel a little alarmist. But I 88 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: contact the vet and I'm like, she has no new symptoms, 89 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: but she's saying this, so maybe she tweaked it. So 90 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: I make an appointment. The vet does a physical examination, 91 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: so she said, let's do imaging since she's reporting this, 92 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 2: And the imaging turned up an ACL injury and severe 93 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: arthritis WOOA, which we would not have spotted, so then 94 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: it gets even more like bonkers. The vet gives us 95 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: pain medication and I give it to Elsie that night, 96 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: and about twenty minutes after that, she goes to her 97 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: button board and she says thank you. And I had 98 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: to give her the medicine for a couple of nights running, 99 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: and every night after she got the medicine, she would 100 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: go to the board and she would say thank you. 101 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: So at this point Elsie now has the word medicine 102 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: on the board and she would ask for medication about 103 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: once a week. Wow, which meant that instead of having 104 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: to medicate her every day, she was opting in to 105 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: get medication on the days that her leg was bothering 106 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: her more. 107 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: As she's able to communicate it when she needed it. 108 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: When she needs it, So being able to do as 109 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: needed medication for an animal is a complete game changer. 110 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, that's Mary Ruminant's cat Elsie. Now here's where 111 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: I asked her what happened when she also taught her 112 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: dog Guppy to dog using the buttons. 113 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: So it's called augmentative interspecies communication, and mostly the inner 114 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: species is human to animal, but there is some cross 115 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: species animal communication. I have seen her and Guppy talk 116 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: to each other with the buttons, and it doesn't happen often, 117 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: but one of them will initiate play by spressing the button. 118 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: Play meaning your cat, now talk to your dog via 119 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: those buttons? 120 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 2: Correct? 121 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: Do you have a bun for? Like, uh, what's up? Dog? 122 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: Kind of? Elsie has one hundred and thirty words, Guppy, 123 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 2: who's a smart dog. It's just very simple girl. And 124 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 2: so she's got eighteen words and basically thinks they all 125 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: mean either friend or outside. 126 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: She plaited kind of at eighteen words. 127 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,559 Speaker 2: She could go farther, but the things that she wants 128 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 2: to communicate are just less complicated. 129 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: That's incredible. Well, I'll ask you how you're processing all 130 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: of this, but if you don't mind what happened with 131 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: the companion animal here, I'm asking Mary Robinette about another 132 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: cat he had called Helix. 133 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: So Helix was sick for a very long time. I 134 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: think he was probably sick from the moment he came 135 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: to us. We only had him for about two years. 136 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: He had good days and bad days, and we tried everything. 137 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 2: So we had to have him put down, and it 138 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: was a very very difficult decision. We didn't have Elsie watch, 139 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 2: but we did bring her in after he was gone 140 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 2: to talk about the fact that his ouch was all 141 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 2: done and that he was dead. And so that night, Elsie, 142 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: she was walking around the apartment. She smelled the spot 143 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 2: where we had had him, and then she went over 144 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: to his favorite chair, she smelled his bed, and then 145 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: she went to the button board and she said concerned, 146 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: and then she did the most plaintive mew and I 147 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: was just it was it was heartbreaking. 148 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: Wow. 149 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: Four months later, she was wandering around the apartment and 150 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: just spontaneously, out of nowhere, she went to the board 151 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 2: and said, let's go Helix play. 152 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: Oh, like she was trying to call him. 153 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: And so I don't remember the entire sequence, but I 154 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: remember the one time when I was attempting to talk 155 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: to her about the fact that he was gone. And 156 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: after we talked, I had left the room, gone into 157 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: the bedroom, and she goes over to her button board 158 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: and says something like, I don't understand sad ouch, and 159 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: I'm just like I saw the footage later and I 160 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: just like, I'm just sobbing. 161 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: On her own. She pressed it. 162 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so like she continues to talk about him. 163 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: He died in twenty twenty three, and she will occasionally 164 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: still just bring him up critical. Yeah, it feels like 165 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: I am in a fantasy novel or science fiction novel, 166 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: like somehow I got the D and D talk to 167 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: animals spell, I can do that now? 168 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, tell me more about that. This is way 169 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: more than you were expecting. 170 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: So much more so, Like I'm a science fiction writer, right, 171 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: I am having conversations with a non human intelligence on 172 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: a daily basis in my home. Oh and that's the 173 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: other thing that I was not expecting. Across species, they 174 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: will use whatever their word is, whatever button you've put 175 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: down for excrement, the learners will use it as a 176 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: curse word. No what And so you give her the 177 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: word litter box and she will press that. 178 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: That means poop, that means crap. 179 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: It means this is some bullshit. Yeah from doom scrolling. 180 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: You know, I get things like device all done? Oh really, litterbox? 181 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, how did it feel to have your cat 182 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: called bullshit on you? 183 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: I mean, she's usually right on the side. 184 00:08:58,960 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: She keeps you honest. 185 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: She does keep me honest. 186 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: So what have you learned about how CAD views the world? 187 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: There's a word called umveldt, which is the lins through 188 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 2: which someone experiences the world. 189 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 190 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: And the idea is that every creature has a different 191 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: kind linsseet than humans. Do you know, like the mantis 192 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: from that have like all of these color ranges that 193 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: we can't see. Cats, they can see the same colors 194 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: that we can, but they have fifty times the synth 195 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: receptors that we do. And so talking to her, watching 196 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: the way she interacts the world with the things that 197 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: are important to her are just completely different than the 198 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 2: way I experience the world. I have so much more 199 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: understanding and appreciation for the fact that she has an 200 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: interior life. 201 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: Amazing, well awesome. Thanks for sharing all these stories, Mary 202 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: Roman It, I really appreciate it. 203 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I am extremely happy to I'm always happy to 204 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: talk about my Dinna cat. 205 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: Be here to t out the full episode on animal communication. 206 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, See you next time you've been 207 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: listening to science stuff. Production of iHeartRadio written and produced 208 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: by me or Hm predited by Rose Seguda, executive producer 209 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: Jerry Rowland, and audio engineer and mixer Kasey Peckram And 210 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: you can follow me on social media to search for 211 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: PhD comics and the name of your favorite platform. Be 212 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to sign stuff on the iHeartRadio app, 213 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and please 214 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: tell your friends we'll be back next Wednesday with another episode.