WEBVTT - Harvey Mason Jr. 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:23.636 Pushkin. Harvey Mason Jr. Grew up steeped in music. His father, 0:00:23.716 --> 0:00:26.596 Harvey Mason Senior, is one of the greatest drummers ever, 0:00:26.676 --> 0:00:29.316 having made a half of Herbie Hancock's Headhunter's Rhythm Section 0:00:29.876 --> 0:00:32.676 and played on countless sessions through the seventies and eighties, 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:36.316 and after a quick but memorable detour through college hoops, 0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:39.596 Harvey Mason Jr. Has continued to build a fascinating life 0:00:39.596 --> 0:00:43.756 in music, starting where many great careers begin writing jingles. 0:00:44.076 --> 0:00:46.796 From those humble origins, he built an incredible production and 0:00:46.836 --> 0:00:51.156 songwriting resume, penning and producing songs for Retha Franklin, Michael Jackson, 0:00:51.516 --> 0:00:55.796 Justin Bieber, Beyonce, and many more, and his film work 0:00:55.796 --> 0:00:59.556 expands soundtracks for Dreamgirls, Straight out of Compton, Pitch Perfect 0:01:00.036 --> 0:01:03.836 in the latest Michael Jackson biopic. But in January twenty twenty, 0:01:03.876 --> 0:01:07.396 things took an unexpected turn. The Recording Academy, the organization 0:01:07.476 --> 0:01:10.356 behind the Grammy Awards, installed him as the interim and 0:01:10.396 --> 0:01:13.956 eventually full time CEO. He stepped into the role at 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:17.036 a moment of profound institutional crisis in stet about remaking 0:01:17.076 --> 0:01:21.316 it from the inside, expanding membership, eliminating secret voting committees, 0:01:21.676 --> 0:01:24.876 and pushing the organization to become more diverse, transparent, and 0:01:24.916 --> 0:01:28.876 reflective of the full breath of modern music. On today's episode, 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:30.756 to sit down with Harvey Mason Junior to trace the 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:33.756 full arc of the journey from ASU Steve Kerr to 0:01:33.796 --> 0:01:36.236 writing jingles in his dorm room, to the studio where 0:01:36.236 --> 0:01:39.156 Michael Jackson made Invincible, and then to one of the 0:01:39.196 --> 0:01:45.476 most powerful administrative chairs in the music industry. This is 0:01:45.556 --> 0:01:55.036 broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with 0:01:55.196 --> 0:02:02.196 Harvey Mason Jr. This is incredible underappreciated fact about you 0:02:03.236 --> 0:02:06.116 that you went to the Final four with Arizona nineteen 0:02:06.156 --> 0:02:06.556 eighty eight. 0:02:07.436 --> 0:02:10.076 Don't say the date That just kills me. 0:02:10.236 --> 0:02:12.836 I mean no, like this is this old guy you know. 0:02:12.996 --> 0:02:14.276 Yeah, No, we did go to the Phonal four and 0:02:14.276 --> 0:02:17.836 eighty eight playing with Steve Kerr. Yeah yeah, with Loud Olsen. 0:02:17.916 --> 0:02:20.396 I mean, you know, with a you know, like a 0:02:20.476 --> 0:02:24.196 legendary coach. I mean that's it's wild. 0:02:23.836 --> 0:02:26.996 Yeah, Hall of Fame coach. He was such an important 0:02:27.316 --> 0:02:30.156 person in my life, no question, one of my mentors, 0:02:30.236 --> 0:02:33.676 difference makers. He set the standard for a lot of 0:02:33.716 --> 0:02:35.396 things in my life, a lot of elements of what 0:02:35.436 --> 0:02:37.356 I try and accomplish. Now, I'm still looking back to 0:02:37.436 --> 0:02:40.876 things that I learned from coach Olsen or in some instances, Steve, 0:02:40.996 --> 0:02:43.076 or my other teammates, you know, Sean Elliott and Kenny 0:02:43.116 --> 0:02:45.916 Loft and all these great athletes and great young men 0:02:45.996 --> 0:02:49.156 were my teammates, and we still stay in close touch, 0:02:49.356 --> 0:02:52.276 and so we share our successes, our challenges, We talk 0:02:52.476 --> 0:02:53.836 family and life and careers. 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:55.116 So, wow, good group. 0:02:55.396 --> 0:02:57.556 It must have been well, not shockings wrong word, but 0:02:57.596 --> 0:03:00.676 it must have been fun to see the success Steve 0:03:00.756 --> 0:03:02.276 Kerrat and basketball over the years. 0:03:02.356 --> 0:03:04.836 Right, it was fun and it was exciting, but it 0:03:04.916 --> 0:03:08.676 was not anywhere close to shocking, because at every step 0:03:09.196 --> 0:03:12.116 you knew Steve was going to be amazing, whether it 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:14.916 was as a basketball player, which he was truly amazing college. 0:03:14.916 --> 0:03:16.476 You would have never thought he would play in the pros. 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:19.236 He went in the pros, was amazing, finished playing there, 0:03:19.316 --> 0:03:22.356 winning a ton of championships, and then he went into 0:03:23.076 --> 0:03:24.756 you know, the business of basketball, and he was a 0:03:24.756 --> 0:03:26.676 GM for Phoenix, and I was like, how are you 0:03:26.676 --> 0:03:28.756 going to be a GM. You've never been an assistant GM, 0:03:28.796 --> 0:03:30.836 You've never been like in the front office. He just 0:03:30.876 --> 0:03:33.916 went from playing to being the GM. Then he went 0:03:33.996 --> 0:03:37.676 to broadcasting. Never broadcast the game in his life. But 0:03:37.716 --> 0:03:39.516 then he was partner with Marv Albert and the whole 0:03:39.556 --> 0:03:41.276 thing in the A team for it was a great 0:03:41.356 --> 0:03:44.196 It was a great team, yeah, and very successful there. 0:03:44.276 --> 0:03:46.516 And then he said I'm going to go into coaching 0:03:46.676 --> 0:03:50.076 and then very successful there. So he was a special 0:03:50.356 --> 0:03:53.396 guy and we all recognized it at a very early 0:03:53.676 --> 0:03:56.796 stage in our careers together. You know, you're eighteen. I 0:03:56.836 --> 0:03:58.796 was eighteen when I got Arizona and Steve was there, 0:03:58.836 --> 0:04:01.676 and I learned so many lessons from him, and as 0:04:01.676 --> 0:04:03.236 I said, the other guys on the team as well. 0:04:03.276 --> 0:04:05.836 We all lifted each other, but Steve was special. 0:04:05.996 --> 0:04:06.516 Yeah. 0:04:06.756 --> 0:04:10.036 And what was what was your role on the team. 0:04:10.076 --> 0:04:10.756 I'm just curious. 0:04:10.796 --> 0:04:14.236 My role changed from the time I got there. I 0:04:14.396 --> 0:04:17.756 was a highly recruited scorer, you know, I led the 0:04:17.756 --> 0:04:20.076 state of California and scoring for two years in a row. 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:23.556 And I had a ton of offers and opportunities, and 0:04:23.596 --> 0:04:26.316 I chose Arizona because, well, first my mom loved Ludolfs 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:28.076 and he thought he had great Hairy came in the 0:04:28.076 --> 0:04:30.516 living room and convinced my family, but I went to 0:04:30.516 --> 0:04:33.796 Arizona as a highly touted scorer. When I got to Arizona, 0:04:33.796 --> 0:04:36.196 I quickly realized I wasn't as good as I thought 0:04:36.236 --> 0:04:38.636 I was, And I learned some of those lessons from 0:04:38.676 --> 0:04:41.996 guys like Steve or Sean or Kenny, and I realized 0:04:41.996 --> 0:04:44.356 I had to work hard. So my role was kind 0:04:44.356 --> 0:04:47.436 of the up and comer. I would come in off 0:04:47.436 --> 0:04:51.076 the bench. I started my sophomore year. I started a 0:04:51.076 --> 0:04:52.916 couple of years there, but I was never a big score. 0:04:53.076 --> 0:04:56.476 So I became a defender. I became a very vocal 0:04:56.516 --> 0:05:01.196 and passionate team advocate or leader, and then ultimately it 0:05:01.236 --> 0:05:04.196 was you know, athlete, defensive stopper. I was very quick, 0:05:04.716 --> 0:05:06.236 I played a little bit of the point guard, a 0:05:06.276 --> 0:05:07.956 little bit of the two guard, and I was a 0:05:08.036 --> 0:05:08.836 pretty decent shooter. 0:05:08.876 --> 0:05:10.676 But for a great score in college. 0:05:10.396 --> 0:05:14.236 Wow, was it tough to adjust your mindset? 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:18.876 It was, and being eighteen, my mindset wasn't very adjustable. Maybe, 0:05:19.596 --> 0:05:22.196 and it was a time where you come in thinking 0:05:22.276 --> 0:05:26.036 that you're the best, and you realize quite quickly that 0:05:26.196 --> 0:05:28.356 there's a difference between where. 0:05:28.196 --> 0:05:29.356 I was and the best. 0:05:29.476 --> 0:05:31.916 And I've told the story, but I remember the first 0:05:32.276 --> 0:05:34.716 night of being on campus, we had to go down 0:05:34.716 --> 0:05:36.796 to study table. And when you go to study table, 0:05:36.796 --> 0:05:38.236 at the bottom of the arena, you walk by the 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:40.716 basketball courts and study table start I think at seven, 0:05:41.356 --> 0:05:42.876 and I looked out on the arena floor and I 0:05:42.916 --> 0:05:45.316 saw Steve shooting from like ten feet out, just like 0:05:45.356 --> 0:05:48.076 warming up, and I went into study table's mandatory for refreshmens. 0:05:48.116 --> 0:05:49.836 We did two and a half hours or two hours 0:05:49.836 --> 0:05:52.156 of studying. So now it's nine or nine thirty and 0:05:52.196 --> 0:05:53.636 I'm leaving and I look out in the court when 0:05:53.636 --> 0:05:55.876 I'm walking out, and he's still out there shooting, and 0:05:55.916 --> 0:05:57.596 now he's in the three point line. I watch him 0:05:57.596 --> 0:06:00.076 for about ten fifteen minutes, and he didn't miss wow 0:06:00.276 --> 0:06:04.076 for like maybe fifteen minutes, and so I quickly realized that. 0:06:04.836 --> 0:06:06.076 There was work that needed to be done. 0:06:06.116 --> 0:06:08.676 I started to do some of that work, and I 0:06:08.676 --> 0:06:10.716 definitely focused a lot, and as a team, we all 0:06:10.716 --> 0:06:12.716 were very conscientious and we wanted to win and we 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:14.556 wanted to be better. We had a real tight bond 0:06:14.596 --> 0:06:17.396 in a brotherhood. But there were certain things that I 0:06:17.476 --> 0:06:22.316 probably would have done differently looking back now, but absolutely 0:06:22.316 --> 0:06:24.836 no regret. It's an amazing career. I learned so much. 0:06:24.996 --> 0:06:28.236 I spent so much memorable time with great guys, great 0:06:28.236 --> 0:06:31.516 coaching staff. You know, my my first wife had my kids, 0:06:31.516 --> 0:06:32.916 so a lot of things came as a result of 0:06:32.916 --> 0:06:33.876 playing basketball there. 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:38.676 It's amazing. Man, let's reset to music. You have. Your 0:06:38.676 --> 0:06:41.916 pedigree in music is also, I mean incredible. Your dad 0:06:42.396 --> 0:06:45.996 is one of the great drummers in my mind ever. 0:06:46.476 --> 0:06:52.116 In my mind too, him and Paul Jackson together bar 0:06:52.276 --> 0:06:55.356 Nune have to be top one of the one of 0:06:55.356 --> 0:06:56.916 the best rhythm sections of the time. 0:06:57.356 --> 0:06:59.676 It's very nice, easy to say, I kind of agree 0:06:59.676 --> 0:07:00.636 with you, but I'm biased. 0:07:01.076 --> 0:07:03.276 You're biased, but it's it's hard not to. I mean 0:07:03.596 --> 0:07:07.196 when you talk, I mean they're like the definition of pocket. 0:07:08.516 --> 0:07:11.556 Yeah, I mean there were some records that they played 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:13.276 on together that was pretty spectacular. 0:07:13.396 --> 0:07:15.436 And yeah, they had a good lock. 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:19.076 Ye. What was around your house when you're growing up musically? 0:07:19.516 --> 0:07:20.916 Tell me about the musical upbringing you. 0:07:21.076 --> 0:07:23.196 Man, it was the best way to come up because 0:07:23.196 --> 0:07:25.756 there's instruments all over the places. We had pianos and 0:07:25.796 --> 0:07:28.196 basses and drums. We had a drum set in my house, 0:07:28.396 --> 0:07:30.596 which is like, probably not good for the neighbors, was 0:07:30.636 --> 0:07:33.836 great for me really good sound system because my dad 0:07:33.876 --> 0:07:35.636 was making records at this time, and so he was 0:07:35.676 --> 0:07:38.436 listening to references and things. We had nice speakers and 0:07:38.876 --> 0:07:41.036 of course the turntable with all the records because my 0:07:41.116 --> 0:07:43.836 dad was a session musician also, so when he would 0:07:43.836 --> 0:07:45.996 play on a record, we would get a copy of it. 0:07:46.036 --> 0:07:48.676 So he's built up a pretty good collection of thousands 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:53.116 of records and collection crazy all different types of genres, 0:07:53.196 --> 0:07:55.436 different types of artists. And so I grew up in 0:07:55.476 --> 0:07:58.556 a household with a lot of music. My mom little 0:07:58.716 --> 0:08:00.876 known fact about my mom, she was also a musician. 0:08:00.996 --> 0:08:03.596 She was a trombone player and she was the first 0:08:03.676 --> 0:08:06.276 female in the brass section at the Berkeley School of Music. 0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:09.356 And so I grew up with two musical parents, parents 0:08:09.596 --> 0:08:11.836 that were working professionally in the music business. So I 0:08:11.836 --> 0:08:13.916 would go to work with my dad. Not only was 0:08:13.996 --> 0:08:15.876 music at my house, everywhere I went with my dad 0:08:15.996 --> 0:08:17.116 was around great music. 0:08:17.276 --> 0:08:17.796 Yeah. 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:20.636 Being a female horn player at that time too, was 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:24.436 never happened. Yeah, it's pretty that's a tough gig, yeah. 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:27.676 And then just the racial dynamic at the time was 0:08:27.716 --> 0:08:30.796 also a tough gig for my mom to meet and 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:34.796 marry a black guy. In Boston at the time, was 0:08:34.836 --> 0:08:38.956 probably not Probably was definitely slightly controversial. In fact, it 0:08:38.996 --> 0:08:41.876 was federally illegal for them to have interracial sex at 0:08:41.876 --> 0:08:43.996 that time in nineteen sixty seven. It wasn't until sixty 0:08:44.036 --> 0:08:47.116 eight that that was even allowed, and I was conceived 0:08:47.116 --> 0:08:49.676 in sixty seven, So when you think about that, it 0:08:49.756 --> 0:08:52.356 was a tough time for both my folks, but especially 0:08:52.996 --> 0:08:55.836 the racial issues and then my mom being the only 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:57.036 female in the brass department. 0:08:57.076 --> 0:08:59.876 But she killed it. She was great musician, that's amazing. 0:09:00.036 --> 0:09:02.636 Yeah, and so she would they were they the type 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:05.156 of parents who would talk you through what you were 0:09:05.196 --> 0:09:06.956 listening to and explain things to you or. 0:09:06.956 --> 0:09:08.796 Yeah, if I asked, and I was pretty curious, but 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:10.596 a lot of it was just me reading the credits, 0:09:11.156 --> 0:09:12.956 listening to the records, and I would ask my dad 0:09:12.956 --> 0:09:14.916 a lot of questions about how it was made and 0:09:14.956 --> 0:09:16.396 how the session went. And then I would go with 0:09:16.436 --> 0:09:18.156 my dad to a lot of sessions. Yeah, I would 0:09:18.156 --> 0:09:20.196 go to the studio when I was seven, eight nine 0:09:20.276 --> 0:09:23.876 years old, I'm spending summer vacations going with my dad, 0:09:24.636 --> 0:09:27.156 sleeping under the console, you know, getting under the pianos 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:28.956 and you know, just seeing what was going on. So 0:09:28.996 --> 0:09:31.476 I had a very fortunate I'm very very lucky and 0:09:31.476 --> 0:09:33.116 thankful that i had that kind of upbringing. 0:09:33.996 --> 0:09:35.596 Which sessions were you able to go? 0:09:35.636 --> 0:09:36.516 Do? All of them? 0:09:36.516 --> 0:09:38.116 And if I had to name them, I don't think 0:09:38.156 --> 0:09:40.396 I could, but a lot of the Quincy Jones stuff 0:09:40.396 --> 0:09:41.956 because my dad worked a lot with Quincy and the 0:09:41.996 --> 0:09:45.596 brothers Johnson and Patty Austin and Michael Jackson and all 0:09:45.636 --> 0:09:46.036 those things. 0:09:46.076 --> 0:09:46.996 A lot of you. 0:09:46.876 --> 0:09:49.196 Know, my dad works a lot with David Foster and 0:09:49.676 --> 0:09:52.276 Seawind Horns and all the rhythm section guys that you 0:09:52.316 --> 0:09:54.956 were talking a lot about. Those were just the people 0:09:54.996 --> 0:09:56.636 that were hanging out of my house all the time 0:09:56.676 --> 0:09:59.316 as a kid. Yeah, getting a chance to meet the 0:09:59.356 --> 0:10:01.436 people in the creas it was weird for me because 0:10:01.476 --> 0:10:03.716 I just I didn't fan out on them because they 0:10:03.716 --> 0:10:05.476 were just all the people that were around, and I 0:10:05.516 --> 0:10:08.236 just thought everybody's dad was making music and everyone's dad 0:10:08.316 --> 0:10:11.236 was recording themselves and putting stuff out. And it didn't 0:10:11.276 --> 0:10:15.356 really lock in until I aspired to do what they 0:10:15.356 --> 0:10:16.956 did and I realized how hard it was and how 0:10:16.996 --> 0:10:20.196 special it was, and how uniquely talented you have to 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:23.076 be to accomplish the level of success that my dad 0:10:23.156 --> 0:10:23.916 was able to have. 0:10:24.116 --> 0:10:28.796 Yeah, you had your own cool career music had obviously 0:10:28.836 --> 0:10:31.196 a love of music, love of basketball. You have success 0:10:31.196 --> 0:10:34.276 in college with basketball, But when for you did a 0:10:34.316 --> 0:10:36.556 career music start to feel like that's what you wanted. 0:10:37.876 --> 0:10:41.836 Well, while I was in college at Arizona, I had 0:10:42.156 --> 0:10:44.196 a system in my dorm room, a little keyboard and 0:10:44.236 --> 0:10:47.316 made a keyboard a computer. I was programming always because 0:10:47.316 --> 0:10:49.516 I grew up playing piano, and I actually wrote one 0:10:49.516 --> 0:10:50.756 of my first songs when I was I think nine 0:10:50.876 --> 0:10:51.596 or ten years old. 0:10:51.916 --> 0:10:53.676 I wrote for Washington song. Yeah. 0:10:54.116 --> 0:10:57.276 So the song that I wrote I groverheard, obviously because 0:10:57.316 --> 0:10:59.276 my dad probably played it for him and put on 0:10:59.316 --> 0:11:02.996 a good, good sales pitch. But I'd always played music, 0:11:03.036 --> 0:11:06.836 written songs, but I was more doing it as something 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:10.756 that I enjoyed. Basketball was always my day to day passion. 0:11:11.396 --> 0:11:15.916 So near the end of my college basketball career, again 0:11:16.036 --> 0:11:18.316 knowing that I had a setup in my dormom, I 0:11:18.356 --> 0:11:20.436 tore my ACL. So that was the end of my 0:11:20.956 --> 0:11:24.236 basketball days. And in that time, this is in nineteen ninety. 0:11:24.476 --> 0:11:26.716 ACL repair surgery is very hard to come back from 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:28.636 it. It would take you like maybe eighteen months to do, 0:11:28.676 --> 0:11:31.116 and I didn't have any more eligibility left. So I 0:11:31.156 --> 0:11:33.716 was done playing basketball and I started making music really 0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:36.396 as therapy. I had this keyboard and I was writing. 0:11:36.436 --> 0:11:38.996 I was super depressed. I've been playing basketball since I 0:11:39.076 --> 0:11:42.756 was about eleven twelve years old, practicing every day, dreaming 0:11:42.796 --> 0:11:44.756 about playing in the NBA, working with my father on 0:11:44.836 --> 0:11:47.916 my game. And it was over literally in one day. 0:11:48.836 --> 0:11:51.836 And so there was a year of me just really 0:11:51.876 --> 0:11:53.876 being in my head and not knowing what my life 0:11:53.956 --> 0:11:56.236 was meant for and what was I going to do, 0:11:56.356 --> 0:12:01.156 and had I used my time wisely? And I started 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:05.116 making music as an outlet. And so at that point 0:12:05.276 --> 0:12:07.756 it wasn't hey, this is my next chapter, this is 0:12:07.756 --> 0:12:10.156 a career for me. It was just trying to survive 0:12:10.196 --> 0:12:13.076 and trying to get through the days and stay off 0:12:13.076 --> 0:12:14.756 the couch from watching soap operas. 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:15.996 I'm going to go make music. 0:12:16.596 --> 0:12:20.316 So a couple months into that process, actually about eight 0:12:20.396 --> 0:12:23.796 months into that kind of down period, someone asked me 0:12:23.836 --> 0:12:27.116 to make a jingle for a local business in Tucson, Arizona, 0:12:27.876 --> 0:12:30.596 and they said, well, we'll give you seven hundred and 0:12:30.636 --> 0:12:33.156 fifty bucks. And I was like, oh, this is easy 0:12:33.156 --> 0:12:35.276 because I'm making music in my room anyways. So I 0:12:35.316 --> 0:12:38.036 made a little jingle they paid me, and that was 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:40.516 really the first taste beyond writing that song way back 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:42.196 when I was young, where I said, you know, this 0:12:42.236 --> 0:12:43.716 could be something else that I could do that I 0:12:43.756 --> 0:12:45.836 love to do. I feel like I have a little 0:12:45.876 --> 0:12:48.076 bit of a talent for it. So I started writing 0:12:48.116 --> 0:12:50.476 jingles and they were paying me money. Every time I 0:12:50.516 --> 0:12:52.716 write jingle for a burger store or a break shop 0:12:52.916 --> 0:12:56.076 or a fitness gym, they would pay me some money. 0:12:56.116 --> 0:12:57.596 And I said, Okay, this is great, but I don't 0:12:57.596 --> 0:12:59.516 want to just write jingles. I want to make records 0:12:59.556 --> 0:13:01.836 like my family, like my dad, like all the great 0:13:01.836 --> 0:13:04.316 people I grew around grew up listening to. So I 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:06.476 took all the money that I made doing jingles and 0:13:06.516 --> 0:13:09.796 I bought equipment. I bought keyboards, I brought drum machines, 0:13:09.796 --> 0:13:12.156 tape recorders, and I had built this little studio in 0:13:12.156 --> 0:13:15.156 my one bedroom apartment at the time, And that's when 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:17.956 I really started getting motivated to enter the music business properly. 0:13:18.156 --> 0:13:21.156 How do you move from jingle writer to I'm going 0:13:21.196 --> 0:13:25.396 to actually make records of the caliber of the records 0:13:25.476 --> 0:13:27.596 I'm used to growing up around having You know. 0:13:27.876 --> 0:13:29.796 As I said, I was very fortunate because I grew 0:13:29.836 --> 0:13:33.636 up around a level of excellence that was just imbued 0:13:33.836 --> 0:13:38.156 into my musical DNA, and I had an understanding of 0:13:38.316 --> 0:13:41.676 what it took to become a professional or excellent musician. 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:45.996 But I also had the training that I got from sports, 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:48.676 And if I hadn't had that sports training, I don't 0:13:48.676 --> 0:13:50.636 know if I would have accomplished what I was able 0:13:50.676 --> 0:13:53.916 to accomplish, because there's that competitiveness. And also coach Olsen 0:13:54.676 --> 0:13:59.356 had a way of making sure you expected more than 0:13:59.396 --> 0:14:01.756 you thought you could give. I had a certain set 0:14:01.756 --> 0:14:04.716 of expectations for myself as an athlete, and Coach Olsen 0:14:04.756 --> 0:14:06.956 was like, Okay, you're here, but I think you should 0:14:06.956 --> 0:14:09.076 be here, and I'm like, there, I can't get there, 0:14:09.356 --> 0:14:12.396 that's impossible. And somehow he would instill that in you. 0:14:12.516 --> 0:14:14.796 And so musically I had the same thing. When I 0:14:14.836 --> 0:14:16.676 was doing jingles, I was always thinking about how can 0:14:16.716 --> 0:14:19.356 I make them better? How can I start to graduate 0:14:19.396 --> 0:14:24.156 towards the next version of excellence, And that ultimately translated 0:14:24.196 --> 0:14:27.836 to songwriting and record making, And you say, how did 0:14:27.836 --> 0:14:29.476 I get there? I knew I didn't want to write 0:14:29.476 --> 0:14:32.156 thirty second songs. I wanted to write full songs. I 0:14:32.156 --> 0:14:33.956 wanted to express what I was thinking or what I 0:14:33.956 --> 0:14:37.396 was feeling, And so the idea became, I'll do these 0:14:37.476 --> 0:14:40.756 jingles to make money, but I really want to develop 0:14:40.796 --> 0:14:43.276 into a songwriter and a producer, and that became my goal. 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:47.596 And about that time, what was out musically that you 0:14:47.636 --> 0:14:50.996 were really drawn to, Well. 0:14:50.876 --> 0:14:52.956 It would have been you know, it was later in 0:14:52.956 --> 0:14:55.396 the Michael Jackson time, but Michael and Prince were my 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:59.436 two favorite artists early. But then there was Jimmy jam 0:14:59.436 --> 0:15:03.676 and Terry Lewis and La and Babyface and jo Toicy 0:15:03.796 --> 0:15:08.196 and DeVante Swing and Teddy Riley and even into some 0:15:08.276 --> 0:15:13.276 Christopher Krawl and Air Supply and Kenny Loggins and Michael McDonald. 0:15:13.316 --> 0:15:16.196 So all these different artists kind of were smashed together 0:15:16.636 --> 0:15:18.596 along with the stuff I grew up on, which was 0:15:18.636 --> 0:15:21.156 all the Quincy records and you know the dude, I 0:15:21.196 --> 0:15:22.916 don't know if you remember that record, And as a 0:15:22.916 --> 0:15:25.596 producer and a songwriter, he was one of my first 0:15:26.156 --> 0:15:29.556 inspirations and mentors. And I was very fortunate. Again I 0:15:29.596 --> 0:15:31.636 hate to keep saying it, but I was lucky. I 0:15:31.636 --> 0:15:33.396 grew up in an environment I have to admit that 0:15:33.876 --> 0:15:35.716 gave me access to people that I learned from that 0:15:35.796 --> 0:15:38.876 I was able to absorb information. But Quincy was somebody 0:15:38.916 --> 0:15:43.196 that would always say, maybe not explicitly, but he would 0:15:43.196 --> 0:15:46.196 imply that if you're a great producer, you have to 0:15:46.196 --> 0:15:48.116 rely on the talents of others, and you have to 0:15:48.676 --> 0:15:50.756 use your judgment and your discernment and your taste and 0:15:50.756 --> 0:15:52.756 your style to put the right people together and then 0:15:52.836 --> 0:15:56.036 let them create and with them build and then be selective. 0:15:56.076 --> 0:15:58.796 And he did that through his career. There's all these 0:15:58.836 --> 0:16:01.676 different sounds, and it's the future of music because you're 0:16:01.676 --> 0:16:03.796 hearing things blended together, You're hearing things that maybe you 0:16:03.836 --> 0:16:06.276 hadn't heard before, You're being exposed to different types of music. 0:16:06.356 --> 0:16:10.516 So that was one of Quincy's I think, most valuable legacies. 0:16:10.636 --> 0:16:12.396 Yeah, it really was a blended like you know in 0:16:12.476 --> 0:16:15.196 ways that kind of prime you to you know, hear 0:16:15.276 --> 0:16:18.276 like a Timbaland beat twenty years on from the Dude 0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:20.436 or whatever, you know what I mean, Like all those 0:16:20.436 --> 0:16:23.956 cool like Middle Eastern and Indian samples like Timbland and them 0:16:23.956 --> 0:16:24.356 were doing. 0:16:24.796 --> 0:16:27.636 Matt he called it what did Quincy Caully call it? 0:16:27.676 --> 0:16:29.476 The Global gumbo. 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:30.916 Is that what he called it. 0:16:30.996 --> 0:16:32.036 Yeah, it would mix. 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:33.956 Up things from different parts of the world and make 0:16:33.956 --> 0:16:35.636 a global gumbo out of it. 0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:36.676 And you hear that a lot. 0:16:36.716 --> 0:16:39.236 To your point, people grabbing things from different genres or 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:40.516 different parts. 0:16:40.316 --> 0:16:42.396 Of the world and using it in their art. 0:16:42.596 --> 0:16:45.956 Yeah, but you also mentioned a succession of guys that 0:16:46.236 --> 0:16:50.796 from your era that were incredible, Davante Swing and all 0:16:50.836 --> 0:16:54.316 these guys, so you kind of knew that was that's 0:16:54.316 --> 0:16:55.716 what you were up against in terms if you were 0:16:55.756 --> 0:16:58.436 going to break into music. Yeah, do you try to 0:16:58.436 --> 0:17:01.236 compete with them, being a competitor or how. 0:17:01.276 --> 0:17:02.196 It's exactly it. 0:17:02.836 --> 0:17:04.876 I took everything I learned in sports and I put 0:17:04.876 --> 0:17:07.916 it to play in music, which is not normal. I 0:17:07.916 --> 0:17:10.196 don't think most creative people thinking I got to beat 0:17:10.236 --> 0:17:11.916 this guy, kind of beat that guy, you know the thing, 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:13.956 and he let me create something I'm feeling in the mood. 0:17:14.476 --> 0:17:17.236 But I was very competitive. I took that training and 0:17:17.276 --> 0:17:19.796 I brought it with me into the music business. And 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:21.556 maybe that's the wrong way to do it, that's the 0:17:21.556 --> 0:17:24.116 wrong thing to be doing when you're making art, but 0:17:24.396 --> 0:17:26.596 it served me because I would be in the studio 0:17:26.636 --> 0:17:29.116 every day working just like I was shooting baskets, just 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:31.356 like Steve Kerr was shooting threes. I was in the 0:17:31.356 --> 0:17:35.116 studio morning, noon, night, trying to get better, and I 0:17:35.116 --> 0:17:36.636 had a really fortunate experience. 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:38.836 I had an A and R person, you know. 0:17:38.836 --> 0:17:40.996 I used to run around LA throwing my cassettes into 0:17:40.996 --> 0:17:43.956 people's mailboxes. I'd follow people with convertibles that I knew 0:17:43.956 --> 0:17:45.876 worked at labels and throw the stuff in the back seat. 0:17:46.396 --> 0:17:48.356 I had one guy that I'd been badgering for so long. 0:17:48.396 --> 0:17:50.796 He invited me to his office. His name is Guy Abrahams, 0:17:50.916 --> 0:17:53.276 and I'll never forget him. And he said, you've been 0:17:53.396 --> 0:17:55.716 chasing me for months. Come to my office. And so 0:17:55.756 --> 0:17:58.276 I played him a song and he said, okay, it's 0:17:58.276 --> 0:17:59.796 pretty good, but listen to this, and he put in 0:17:59.796 --> 0:18:02.316 another another cassette and I listened to it, and he said, 0:18:02.356 --> 0:18:03.996 now listen to yours, and he listened to mine. He said, 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:05.596 do you hear the difference? He said, yeah, there's a difference. 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:07.116 But I don't have a studio like that. I don't 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:09.116 have an engineer, I don't have all the He says, well, 0:18:09.156 --> 0:18:11.556 and tell you your music sounds as good as that music. 0:18:12.116 --> 0:18:16.596 Don't bother me anymore. And so that was a real moment. 0:18:16.876 --> 0:18:18.796 That was a tipping point moment for me because I 0:18:18.836 --> 0:18:21.116 went back to two sound cause commuting back and forth, 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:24.116 I'll drive out to La stay with a friend, sleep 0:18:24.156 --> 0:18:27.756 on a couch, stay with my dad. And then when 0:18:27.796 --> 0:18:29.916 he gave me that input, I went back to Arizona 0:18:30.036 --> 0:18:31.996