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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Harvey Mason Jr. Grew up steeped in music. His father,

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Speaker 1: Harvey Mason Senior, is one of the greatest drummers ever,

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Speaker 1: having made a half of Herbie Hancock's Headhunter's Rhythm Section

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Speaker 1: and played on countless sessions through the seventies and eighties,

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Speaker 1: and after a quick but memorable detour through college hoops,

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Speaker 1: Harvey Mason Jr. Has continued to build a fascinating life

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Speaker 1: in music, starting where many great careers begin writing jingles.

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Speaker 1: From those humble origins, he built an incredible production and

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Speaker 1: songwriting resume, penning and producing songs for Retha Franklin, Michael Jackson,

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Speaker 1: Justin Bieber, Beyonce, and many more, and his film work

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Speaker 1: expands soundtracks for Dreamgirls, Straight out of Compton, Pitch Perfect

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Speaker 1: in the latest Michael Jackson biopic. But in January twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: things took an unexpected turn. The Recording Academy, the organization

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Speaker 1: behind the Grammy Awards, installed him as the interim and

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Speaker 1: eventually full time CEO. He stepped into the role at

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Speaker 1: a moment of profound institutional crisis in stet about remaking

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Speaker 1: it from the inside, expanding membership, eliminating secret voting committees,

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Speaker 1: and pushing the organization to become more diverse, transparent, and

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Speaker 1: reflective of the full breath of modern music. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: to sit down with Harvey Mason Junior to trace the

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Speaker 1: full arc of the journey from ASU Steve Kerr to

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Speaker 1: writing jingles in his dorm room, to the studio where

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson made Invincible, and then to one of the

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Speaker 1: most powerful administrative chairs in the music industry. This is

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Speaker 1: broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with

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Speaker 1: Harvey Mason Jr. This is incredible underappreciated fact about you

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Speaker 1: that you went to the Final four with Arizona nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty eight.

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Speaker 2: Don't say the date That just kills me.

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Speaker 3: I mean no, like this is this old guy you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, we did go to the Phonal four and

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Speaker 2: eighty eight playing with Steve Kerr. Yeah yeah, with Loud Olsen.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, with a you know, like a

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Speaker 1: legendary coach. I mean that's it's wild.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Hall of Fame coach. He was such an important

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Speaker 3: person in my life, no question, one of my mentors,

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Speaker 3: difference makers. He set the standard for a lot of

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Speaker 3: things in my life, a lot of elements of what

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Speaker 3: I try and accomplish. Now, I'm still looking back to

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Speaker 3: things that I learned from coach Olsen or in some instances, Steve,

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Speaker 3: or my other teammates, you know, Sean Elliott and Kenny

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Speaker 3: Loft and all these great athletes and great young men

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Speaker 3: were my teammates, and we still stay in close touch,

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Speaker 3: and so we share our successes, our challenges, We talk

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Speaker 3: family and life and careers.

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Speaker 2: So, wow, good group.

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Speaker 1: It must have been well, not shockings wrong word, but

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Speaker 1: it must have been fun to see the success Steve

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Speaker 1: Kerrat and basketball over the years.

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Speaker 3: Right, it was fun and it was exciting, but it

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Speaker 3: was not anywhere close to shocking, because at every step

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Speaker 3: you knew Steve was going to be amazing, whether it

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Speaker 3: was as a basketball player, which he was truly amazing college.

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Speaker 3: You would have never thought he would play in the pros.

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Speaker 3: He went in the pros, was amazing, finished playing there,

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Speaker 3: winning a ton of championships, and then he went into

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Speaker 3: you know, the business of basketball, and he was a

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Speaker 3: GM for Phoenix, and I was like, how are you

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Speaker 3: going to be a GM. You've never been an assistant GM,

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Speaker 3: You've never been like in the front office. He just

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Speaker 3: went from playing to being the GM. Then he went

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Speaker 3: to broadcasting. Never broadcast the game in his life. But

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Speaker 3: then he was partner with Marv Albert and the whole

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Speaker 3: thing in the A team for it was a great

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Speaker 3: It was a great team, yeah, and very successful there.

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Speaker 3: And then he said I'm going to go into coaching

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Speaker 3: and then very successful there. So he was a special

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Speaker 3: guy and we all recognized it at a very early

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Speaker 3: stage in our careers together. You know, you're eighteen. I

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Speaker 3: was eighteen when I got Arizona and Steve was there,

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Speaker 3: and I learned so many lessons from him, and as

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Speaker 3: I said, the other guys on the team as well.

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Speaker 3: We all lifted each other, but Steve was special.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And what was what was your role on the team.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious.

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Speaker 3: My role changed from the time I got there. I

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Speaker 3: was a highly recruited scorer, you know, I led the

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Speaker 3: state of California and scoring for two years in a row.

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Speaker 3: And I had a ton of offers and opportunities, and

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Speaker 3: I chose Arizona because, well, first my mom loved Ludolfs

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Speaker 3: and he thought he had great Hairy came in the

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Speaker 3: living room and convinced my family, but I went to

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Speaker 3: Arizona as a highly touted scorer. When I got to Arizona,

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Speaker 3: I quickly realized I wasn't as good as I thought

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Speaker 3: I was, And I learned some of those lessons from

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Speaker 3: guys like Steve or Sean or Kenny, and I realized

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Speaker 3: I had to work hard. So my role was kind

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Speaker 3: of the up and comer. I would come in off

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Speaker 3: the bench. I started my sophomore year. I started a

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Speaker 3: couple of years there, but I was never a big score.

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Speaker 3: So I became a defender. I became a very vocal

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Speaker 3: and passionate team advocate or leader, and then ultimately it

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Speaker 3: was you know, athlete, defensive stopper. I was very quick,

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Speaker 3: I played a little bit of the point guard, a

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Speaker 3: little bit of the two guard, and I was a

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Speaker 3: pretty decent shooter.

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Speaker 2: But for a great score in college.

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Speaker 1: Wow, was it tough to adjust your mindset?

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Speaker 3: It was, and being eighteen, my mindset wasn't very adjustable. Maybe,

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Speaker 3: and it was a time where you come in thinking

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Speaker 3: that you're the best, and you realize quite quickly that

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Speaker 3: there's a difference between where.

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Speaker 2: I was and the best.

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Speaker 3: And I've told the story, but I remember the first

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Speaker 3: night of being on campus, we had to go down

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Speaker 3: to study table. And when you go to study table,

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Speaker 3: at the bottom of the arena, you walk by the

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Speaker 3: basketball courts and study table start I think at seven,

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Speaker 3: and I looked out on the arena floor and I

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Speaker 3: saw Steve shooting from like ten feet out, just like

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Speaker 3: warming up, and I went into study table's mandatory for refreshmens.

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Speaker 3: We did two and a half hours or two hours

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Speaker 3: of studying. So now it's nine or nine thirty and

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Speaker 3: I'm leaving and I look out in the court when

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Speaker 3: I'm walking out, and he's still out there shooting, and

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Speaker 3: now he's in the three point line. I watch him

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Speaker 3: for about ten fifteen minutes, and he didn't miss wow

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Speaker 3: for like maybe fifteen minutes, and so I quickly realized that.

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Speaker 2: There was work that needed to be done.

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Speaker 3: I started to do some of that work, and I

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Speaker 3: definitely focused a lot, and as a team, we all

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Speaker 3: were very conscientious and we wanted to win and we

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Speaker 3: wanted to be better. We had a real tight bond

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Speaker 3: in a brotherhood. But there were certain things that I

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Speaker 3: probably would have done differently looking back now, but absolutely

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Speaker 3: no regret. It's an amazing career. I learned so much.

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Speaker 3: I spent so much memorable time with great guys, great

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Speaker 3: coaching staff. You know, my my first wife had my kids,

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Speaker 3: so a lot of things came as a result of

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Speaker 3: playing basketball there.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Man, let's reset to music. You have. Your

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Speaker 1: pedigree in music is also, I mean incredible. Your dad

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Speaker 1: is one of the great drummers in my mind ever.

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Speaker 1: In my mind too, him and Paul Jackson together bar

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Speaker 1: Nune have to be top one of the one of

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Speaker 1: the best rhythm sections of the time.

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Speaker 3: It's very nice, easy to say, I kind of agree

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Speaker 3: with you, but I'm biased.

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Speaker 1: You're biased, but it's it's hard not to. I mean

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Speaker 1: when you talk, I mean they're like the definition of pocket.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there were some records that they played

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Speaker 3: on together that was pretty spectacular.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, they had a good lock.

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Speaker 1: Ye. What was around your house when you're growing up musically?

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the musical upbringing you.

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Speaker 3: Man, it was the best way to come up because

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Speaker 3: there's instruments all over the places. We had pianos and

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Speaker 3: basses and drums. We had a drum set in my house,

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Speaker 3: which is like, probably not good for the neighbors, was

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Speaker 3: great for me really good sound system because my dad

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Speaker 3: was making records at this time, and so he was

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Speaker 3: listening to references and things. We had nice speakers and

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Speaker 3: of course the turntable with all the records because my

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Speaker 3: dad was a session musician also, so when he would

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Speaker 3: play on a record, we would get a copy of it.

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Speaker 3: So he's built up a pretty good collection of thousands

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Speaker 3: of records and collection crazy all different types of genres,

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Speaker 3: different types of artists. And so I grew up in

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Speaker 3: a household with a lot of music. My mom little

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Speaker 3: known fact about my mom, she was also a musician.

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Speaker 3: She was a trombone player and she was the first

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Speaker 3: female in the brass section at the Berkeley School of Music.

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Speaker 3: And so I grew up with two musical parents, parents

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Speaker 3: that were working professionally in the music business. So I

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Speaker 3: would go to work with my dad. Not only was

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Speaker 3: music at my house, everywhere I went with my dad

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Speaker 3: was around great music.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Being a female horn player at that time too, was

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Speaker 1: never happened. Yeah, it's pretty that's a tough gig, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then just the racial dynamic at the time was

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Speaker 3: also a tough gig for my mom to meet and

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Speaker 3: marry a black guy. In Boston at the time, was

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Speaker 3: probably not Probably was definitely slightly controversial. In fact, it

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Speaker 3: was federally illegal for them to have interracial sex at

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Speaker 3: that time in nineteen sixty seven. It wasn't until sixty

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Speaker 3: eight that that was even allowed, and I was conceived

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Speaker 3: in sixty seven, So when you think about that, it

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Speaker 3: was a tough time for both my folks, but especially

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Speaker 3: the racial issues and then my mom being the only

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Speaker 3: female in the brass department.

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Speaker 2: But she killed it. She was great musician, that's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so she would they were they the type

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Speaker 1: of parents who would talk you through what you were

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Speaker 1: listening to and explain things to you or.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if I asked, and I was pretty curious, but

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Speaker 3: a lot of it was just me reading the credits,

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Speaker 3: listening to the records, and I would ask my dad

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Speaker 3: a lot of questions about how it was made and

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Speaker 3: how the session went. And then I would go with

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Speaker 3: my dad to a lot of sessions. Yeah, I would

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Speaker 3: go to the studio when I was seven, eight nine

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Speaker 3: years old, I'm spending summer vacations going with my dad,

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Speaker 3: sleeping under the console, you know, getting under the pianos

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Speaker 3: and you know, just seeing what was going on. So

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Speaker 3: I had a very fortunate I'm very very lucky and

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Speaker 3: thankful that i had that kind of upbringing.

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Speaker 1: Which sessions were you able to go?

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Speaker 2: Do? All of them?

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Speaker 3: And if I had to name them, I don't think

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Speaker 3: I could, but a lot of the Quincy Jones stuff

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Speaker 3: because my dad worked a lot with Quincy and the

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Speaker 3: brothers Johnson and Patty Austin and Michael Jackson and all

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Speaker 3: those things.

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Speaker 2: A lot of you.

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Speaker 3: Know, my dad works a lot with David Foster and

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Speaker 3: Seawind Horns and all the rhythm section guys that you

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Speaker 3: were talking a lot about. Those were just the people

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Speaker 3: that were hanging out of my house all the time

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Speaker 3: as a kid. Yeah, getting a chance to meet the

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Speaker 3: people in the creas it was weird for me because

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Speaker 3: I just I didn't fan out on them because they

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Speaker 3: were just all the people that were around, and I

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Speaker 3: just thought everybody's dad was making music and everyone's dad

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Speaker 3: was recording themselves and putting stuff out. And it didn't

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Speaker 3: really lock in until I aspired to do what they

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Speaker 3: did and I realized how hard it was and how

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Speaker 3: special it was, and how uniquely talented you have to

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Speaker 3: be to accomplish the level of success that my dad

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Speaker 3: was able to have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you had your own cool career music had obviously

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Speaker 1: a love of music, love of basketball. You have success

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Speaker 1: in college with basketball, But when for you did a

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Speaker 1: career music start to feel like that's what you wanted.

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Speaker 3: Well, while I was in college at Arizona, I had

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Speaker 3: a system in my dorm room, a little keyboard and

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Speaker 3: made a keyboard a computer. I was programming always because

229
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Speaker 3: I grew up playing piano, and I actually wrote one

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Speaker 3: of my first songs when I was I think nine

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Speaker 3: or ten years old.

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Speaker 1: I wrote for Washington song. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the song that I wrote I groverheard, obviously because

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Speaker 3: my dad probably played it for him and put on

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Speaker 3: a good, good sales pitch. But I'd always played music,

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Speaker 3: written songs, but I was more doing it as something

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Speaker 3: that I enjoyed. Basketball was always my day to day passion.

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Speaker 3: So near the end of my college basketball career, again

239
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Speaker 3: knowing that I had a setup in my dormom, I

240
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Speaker 3: tore my ACL. So that was the end of my

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Speaker 3: basketball days. And in that time, this is in nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 3: ACL repair surgery is very hard to come back from

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Speaker 3: it. It would take you like maybe eighteen months to do,

244
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Speaker 3: and I didn't have any more eligibility left. So I

245
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Speaker 3: was done playing basketball and I started making music really

246
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Speaker 3: as therapy. I had this keyboard and I was writing.

247
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Speaker 3: I was super depressed. I've been playing basketball since I

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Speaker 3: was about eleven twelve years old, practicing every day, dreaming

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Speaker 3: about playing in the NBA, working with my father on

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Speaker 3: my game. And it was over literally in one day.

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Speaker 3: And so there was a year of me just really

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Speaker 3: being in my head and not knowing what my life

253
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Speaker 3: was meant for and what was I going to do,

254
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Speaker 3: and had I used my time wisely? And I started

255
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Speaker 3: making music as an outlet. And so at that point

256
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Speaker 3: it wasn't hey, this is my next chapter, this is

257
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Speaker 3: a career for me. It was just trying to survive

258
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Speaker 3: and trying to get through the days and stay off

259
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Speaker 3: the couch from watching soap operas.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go make music.

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Speaker 3: So a couple months into that process, actually about eight

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Speaker 3: months into that kind of down period, someone asked me

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Speaker 3: to make a jingle for a local business in Tucson, Arizona,

264
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Speaker 3: and they said, well, we'll give you seven hundred and

265
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Speaker 3: fifty bucks. And I was like, oh, this is easy

266
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Speaker 3: because I'm making music in my room anyways. So I

267
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Speaker 3: made a little jingle they paid me, and that was

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Speaker 3: really the first taste beyond writing that song way back

269
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Speaker 3: when I was young, where I said, you know, this

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Speaker 3: could be something else that I could do that I

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Speaker 3: love to do. I feel like I have a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a talent for it. So I started writing

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Speaker 3: jingles and they were paying me money. Every time I

274
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Speaker 3: write jingle for a burger store or a break shop

275
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Speaker 3: or a fitness gym, they would pay me some money.

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Speaker 3: And I said, Okay, this is great, but I don't

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Speaker 3: want to just write jingles. I want to make records

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Speaker 3: like my family, like my dad, like all the great

279
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Speaker 3: people I grew around grew up listening to. So I

280
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Speaker 3: took all the money that I made doing jingles and

281
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Speaker 3: I bought equipment. I bought keyboards, I brought drum machines,

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Speaker 3: tape recorders, and I had built this little studio in

283
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Speaker 3: my one bedroom apartment at the time, And that's when

284
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Speaker 3: I really started getting motivated to enter the music business properly.

285
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Speaker 1: How do you move from jingle writer to I'm going

286
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Speaker 1: to actually make records of the caliber of the records

287
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Speaker 1: I'm used to growing up around having You know.

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Speaker 3: As I said, I was very fortunate because I grew

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Speaker 3: up around a level of excellence that was just imbued

290
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Speaker 3: into my musical DNA, and I had an understanding of

291
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Speaker 3: what it took to become a professional or excellent musician.

292
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Speaker 3: But I also had the training that I got from sports,

293
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Speaker 3: And if I hadn't had that sports training, I don't

294
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Speaker 3: know if I would have accomplished what I was able

295
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Speaker 3: to accomplish, because there's that competitiveness. And also coach Olsen

296
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Speaker 3: had a way of making sure you expected more than

297
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Speaker 3: you thought you could give. I had a certain set

298
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Speaker 3: of expectations for myself as an athlete, and Coach Olsen

299
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Speaker 3: was like, Okay, you're here, but I think you should

300
00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:09,076
Speaker 3: be here, and I'm like, there, I can't get there,

301
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Speaker 3: that's impossible. And somehow he would instill that in you.

302
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Speaker 3: And so musically I had the same thing. When I

303
00:14:14,836 --> 00:14:16,676
Speaker 3: was doing jingles, I was always thinking about how can

304
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Speaker 3: I make them better? How can I start to graduate

305
00:14:19,396 --> 00:14:24,156
Speaker 3: towards the next version of excellence, And that ultimately translated

306
00:14:24,196 --> 00:14:27,836
Speaker 3: to songwriting and record making, And you say, how did

307
00:14:27,836 --> 00:14:29,476
Speaker 3: I get there? I knew I didn't want to write

308
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Speaker 3: thirty second songs. I wanted to write full songs. I

309
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Speaker 3: wanted to express what I was thinking or what I

310
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Speaker 3: was feeling, And so the idea became, I'll do these

311
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Speaker 3: jingles to make money, but I really want to develop

312
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Speaker 3: into a songwriter and a producer, and that became my goal.

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Speaker 1: And about that time, what was out musically that you

314
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Speaker 1: were really drawn to, Well.

315
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Speaker 3: It would have been you know, it was later in

316
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Speaker 3: the Michael Jackson time, but Michael and Prince were my

317
00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:59,436
Speaker 3: two favorite artists early. But then there was Jimmy jam

318
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Speaker 3: and Terry Lewis and La and Babyface and jo Toicy

319
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Speaker 3: and DeVante Swing and Teddy Riley and even into some

320
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Speaker 3: Christopher Krawl and Air Supply and Kenny Loggins and Michael McDonald.

321
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Speaker 3: So all these different artists kind of were smashed together

322
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Speaker 3: along with the stuff I grew up on, which was

323
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Speaker 3: all the Quincy records and you know the dude, I

324
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Speaker 3: don't know if you remember that record, And as a

325
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Speaker 3: producer and a songwriter, he was one of my first

326
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Speaker 3: inspirations and mentors. And I was very fortunate. Again I

327
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Speaker 3: hate to keep saying it, but I was lucky. I

328
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Speaker 3: grew up in an environment I have to admit that

329
00:15:33,876 --> 00:15:35,716
Speaker 3: gave me access to people that I learned from that

330
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Speaker 3: I was able to absorb information. But Quincy was somebody

331
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Speaker 3: that would always say, maybe not explicitly, but he would

332
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Speaker 3: imply that if you're a great producer, you have to

333
00:15:46,196 --> 00:15:48,116
Speaker 3: rely on the talents of others, and you have to

334
00:15:48,676 --> 00:15:50,756
Speaker 3: use your judgment and your discernment and your taste and

335
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Speaker 3: your style to put the right people together and then

336
00:15:52,836 --> 00:15:56,036
Speaker 3: let them create and with them build and then be selective.

337
00:15:56,076 --> 00:15:58,796
Speaker 3: And he did that through his career. There's all these

338
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Speaker 3: different sounds, and it's the future of music because you're

339
00:16:01,676 --> 00:16:03,796
Speaker 3: hearing things blended together, You're hearing things that maybe you

340
00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:06,276
Speaker 3: hadn't heard before, You're being exposed to different types of music.

341
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Speaker 3: So that was one of Quincy's I think, most valuable legacies.

342
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it really was a blended like you know in

343
00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:15,196
Speaker 1: ways that kind of prime you to you know, hear

344
00:16:15,276 --> 00:16:18,276
Speaker 1: like a Timbaland beat twenty years on from the Dude

345
00:16:18,356 --> 00:16:20,436
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know what I mean, Like all those

346
00:16:20,436 --> 00:16:23,956
Speaker 1: cool like Middle Eastern and Indian samples like Timbland and them

347
00:16:23,956 --> 00:16:24,356
Speaker 1: were doing.

348
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Speaker 2: Matt he called it what did Quincy Caully call it?

349
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Speaker 2: The Global gumbo.

350
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Speaker 1: Is that what he called it.

351
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would mix.

352
00:16:31,916 --> 00:16:33,956
Speaker 3: Up things from different parts of the world and make

353
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Speaker 3: a global gumbo out of it.

354
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Speaker 2: And you hear that a lot.

355
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Speaker 3: To your point, people grabbing things from different genres or

356
00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:40,516
Speaker 3: different parts.

357
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Speaker 2: Of the world and using it in their art.

358
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you also mentioned a succession of guys that

359
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Speaker 1: from your era that were incredible, Davante Swing and all

360
00:16:50,836 --> 00:16:54,316
Speaker 1: these guys, so you kind of knew that was that's

361
00:16:54,316 --> 00:16:55,716
Speaker 1: what you were up against in terms if you were

362
00:16:55,756 --> 00:16:58,436
Speaker 1: going to break into music. Yeah, do you try to

363
00:16:58,436 --> 00:17:01,236
Speaker 1: compete with them, being a competitor or how.

364
00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:02,196
Speaker 2: It's exactly it.

365
00:17:02,836 --> 00:17:04,876
Speaker 3: I took everything I learned in sports and I put

366
00:17:04,876 --> 00:17:07,916
Speaker 3: it to play in music, which is not normal. I

367
00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:10,196
Speaker 3: don't think most creative people thinking I got to beat

368
00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:11,916
Speaker 3: this guy, kind of beat that guy, you know the thing,

369
00:17:11,956 --> 00:17:13,956
Speaker 3: and he let me create something I'm feeling in the mood.

370
00:17:14,476 --> 00:17:17,236
Speaker 3: But I was very competitive. I took that training and

371
00:17:17,276 --> 00:17:19,796
Speaker 3: I brought it with me into the music business. And

372
00:17:19,836 --> 00:17:21,556
Speaker 3: maybe that's the wrong way to do it, that's the

373
00:17:21,556 --> 00:17:24,116
Speaker 3: wrong thing to be doing when you're making art, but

374
00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:26,596
Speaker 3: it served me because I would be in the studio

375
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Speaker 3: every day working just like I was shooting baskets, just

376
00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,356
Speaker 3: like Steve Kerr was shooting threes. I was in the

377
00:17:31,356 --> 00:17:35,116
Speaker 3: studio morning, noon, night, trying to get better, and I

378
00:17:35,116 --> 00:17:36,636
Speaker 3: had a really fortunate experience.

379
00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:38,836
Speaker 2: I had an A and R person, you know.

380
00:17:38,836 --> 00:17:40,996
Speaker 3: I used to run around LA throwing my cassettes into

381
00:17:40,996 --> 00:17:43,956
Speaker 3: people's mailboxes. I'd follow people with convertibles that I knew

382
00:17:43,956 --> 00:17:45,876
Speaker 3: worked at labels and throw the stuff in the back seat.

383
00:17:46,396 --> 00:17:48,356
Speaker 3: I had one guy that I'd been badgering for so long.

384
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Speaker 3: He invited me to his office. His name is Guy Abrahams,

385
00:17:50,916 --> 00:17:53,276
Speaker 3: and I'll never forget him. And he said, you've been

386
00:17:53,396 --> 00:17:55,716
Speaker 3: chasing me for months. Come to my office. And so

387
00:17:55,756 --> 00:17:58,276
Speaker 3: I played him a song and he said, okay, it's

388
00:17:58,276 --> 00:17:59,796
Speaker 3: pretty good, but listen to this, and he put in

389
00:17:59,796 --> 00:18:02,316
Speaker 3: another another cassette and I listened to it, and he said,

390
00:18:02,356 --> 00:18:03,996
Speaker 3: now listen to yours, and he listened to mine. He said,

391
00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:05,596
Speaker 3: do you hear the difference? He said, yeah, there's a difference.

392
00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:07,116
Speaker 3: But I don't have a studio like that. I don't

393
00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:09,116
Speaker 3: have an engineer, I don't have all the He says, well,

394
00:18:09,156 --> 00:18:11,556
Speaker 3: and tell you your music sounds as good as that music.

395
00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:16,596
Speaker 3: Don't bother me anymore. And so that was a real moment.

396
00:18:16,876 --> 00:18:18,796
Speaker 3: That was a tipping point moment for me because I

397
00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:21,116
Speaker 3: went back to two sound cause commuting back and forth,

398
00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:24,116
Speaker 3: I'll drive out to La stay with a friend, sleep

399
00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:27,756
Speaker 3: on a couch, stay with my dad. And then when

400
00:18:27,796 --> 00:18:29,916
Speaker 3: he gave me that input, I went back to Arizona

401
00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:31,996
Speaker 3: and I stayed there for three months and I just

402
00:18:32,116 --> 00:18:34,596
Speaker 3: worked and programmed and wrote and did more songs than

403
00:18:34,636 --> 00:18:36,956
Speaker 3: I took a couple more months of like comparing myself

404
00:18:36,956 --> 00:18:39,396
Speaker 3: to other things. And then when I came back to La,

405
00:18:39,716 --> 00:18:42,596
Speaker 3: I played the same gentleman my new music. It's probably

406
00:18:42,636 --> 00:18:46,516
Speaker 3: been maybe six months had passed, and he says, you

407
00:18:46,556 --> 00:18:48,476
Speaker 3: did it, You're ready, and he gave me a job

408
00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:50,916
Speaker 3: producing an artist on Motown Records. And so that was

409
00:18:51,636 --> 00:18:54,916
Speaker 3: really the impetus or the beginning of my career, was

410
00:18:54,916 --> 00:18:56,916
Speaker 3: that guy telling me that the music wasn't.

411
00:18:56,716 --> 00:18:59,276
Speaker 1: Up to par wow, And what was that record you did?

412
00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:03,196
Speaker 3: The group was called Impromptu, and it was an artist

413
00:19:03,236 --> 00:19:08,076
Speaker 3: that was back on Motown probably would have been ninety four,

414
00:19:08,316 --> 00:19:11,156
Speaker 3: ninety three, somewhere in there. It was a trumpet player

415
00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:13,196
Speaker 3: and a rap artist. So they came together and the

416
00:19:13,196 --> 00:19:15,876
Speaker 3: group was called Impromptu. They were really cool in the time,

417
00:19:15,916 --> 00:19:17,596
Speaker 3: and so I got to remix one of their songs.

418
00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:20,116
Speaker 3: They'd ended up producing a song on their record.

419
00:19:19,916 --> 00:19:21,556
Speaker 1: And I guess not too long after that you connect

420
00:19:21,556 --> 00:19:23,436
Speaker 1: with Dark Child Ronnie Jurgen's.

421
00:19:23,556 --> 00:19:27,196
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was probably in ninety eight, so about three

422
00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:30,996
Speaker 3: or four four years after that, and I'd been writing

423
00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:34,516
Speaker 3: songs since that first record and had some nice placements.

424
00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:37,596
Speaker 3: I can't remember all the artists, but ultimately I wrote

425
00:19:37,596 --> 00:19:41,716
Speaker 3: a song and Brandy heard the song, and song was

426
00:19:41,756 --> 00:19:44,036
Speaker 3: called Truthfully. I'd written it with a guy named Mark

427
00:19:44,076 --> 00:19:47,556
Speaker 3: Nelson and turned out that Rodney was executive producing the

428
00:19:47,636 --> 00:19:50,756
Speaker 3: Brandy album, and so Rodney called me and said, I

429
00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:52,876
Speaker 3: heard the song Truthfully, I want it for Brandy's record.

430
00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:55,236
Speaker 2: You cool for us to record it, And.

431
00:19:55,236 --> 00:19:57,156
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was a gamble or I

432
00:19:57,236 --> 00:19:58,316
Speaker 3: just was feeling extra brave.

433
00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:00,076
Speaker 2: I said, I mean, you can record it, but I

434
00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:00,716
Speaker 2: got to produce.

435
00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:05,196
Speaker 3: And if I was probably a little smarter or less naive,

436
00:20:05,196 --> 00:20:07,316
Speaker 3: I would have said, yes, thank you, please take the song,

437
00:20:07,396 --> 00:20:09,956
Speaker 3: record it, but I really wanted to stay involved, and

438
00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:11,916
Speaker 3: I also realized it was an opportunity to learn and

439
00:20:11,916 --> 00:20:14,436
Speaker 3: get into another door. So yeah, I said, yeah, you

440
00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:16,876
Speaker 3: can cut it, but I want to produce, and Rodney said, well,

441
00:20:16,876 --> 00:20:18,876
Speaker 3: how would we co produce it? I was like cool,

442
00:20:19,276 --> 00:20:20,716
Speaker 3: and so that's how I started with Dark Child.

443
00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:22,876
Speaker 1: Wow. So what was that experience?

444
00:20:22,956 --> 00:20:23,156
Speaker 2: Like?

445
00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:25,076
Speaker 1: Like co producing with Dark Child?

446
00:20:25,236 --> 00:20:25,716
Speaker 2: It was great.

447
00:20:25,756 --> 00:20:28,396
Speaker 3: I wasn't like freaked out by it because at that point,

448
00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:33,076
Speaker 3: I've been making records for what probably eight years, seven years,

449
00:20:33,316 --> 00:20:36,316
Speaker 3: and I felt pretty confident I'd done the hours, I'd

450
00:20:36,316 --> 00:20:38,236
Speaker 3: spent the time, and again, I'd been working with other

451
00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:40,676
Speaker 3: artists and then growing up with artists my whole life.

452
00:20:40,676 --> 00:20:42,556
Speaker 3: I wasn't like, oh my god, it's Brandy or it's

453
00:20:42,636 --> 00:20:43,316
Speaker 3: Rodney Jerkins.

454
00:20:43,396 --> 00:20:43,556
Speaker 2: Yeah.

455
00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:46,476
Speaker 3: I was respectful always because I think artists are the

456
00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:49,676
Speaker 3: most special and spectacular people. But I was able to

457
00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:53,436
Speaker 3: interact and collaborate with Rodney, I think in a productive

458
00:20:53,956 --> 00:20:57,076
Speaker 3: in a very cool way, because that was the first

459
00:20:57,076 --> 00:20:58,596
Speaker 3: record we did together, and I ended up working with

460
00:20:58,676 --> 00:21:01,076
Speaker 3: him for two years and from that day, I don't

461
00:21:01,076 --> 00:21:02,716
Speaker 3: know if we spent more than a couple of days

462
00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:04,596
Speaker 3: apart from each other for a couple of years.

463
00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:07,156
Speaker 1: And what were the songs you guys ended up doing

464
00:21:07,196 --> 00:21:08,476
Speaker 1: together in that run?

465
00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:11,876
Speaker 3: Was in ninety eight to two thousand, and that run

466
00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:13,876
Speaker 3: was everything. That was all that Tony Brax and he

467
00:21:13,916 --> 00:21:16,036
Speaker 3: wasn't mad enough for me. It was Destiny's Child, Say

468
00:21:16,116 --> 00:21:20,076
Speaker 3: my Name. I can't even remember all the songs we did.

469
00:21:20,116 --> 00:21:22,316
Speaker 3: We did so many artists and then every week was

470
00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:25,716
Speaker 3: another artist. And then we also started the Michael Jackson

471
00:21:25,796 --> 00:21:29,036
Speaker 3: record Invincible in ninety eight, and we ended up working

472
00:21:29,076 --> 00:21:32,036
Speaker 3: on that record for eighteen months, which was Michael's last record,

473
00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:36,236
Speaker 3: So we did a couple hundred songs. I'm sure through

474
00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:36,716
Speaker 3: that period.

475
00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:37,716
Speaker 1: Were you around Michael?

476
00:21:37,916 --> 00:21:39,356
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, for eighteen months.

477
00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:42,996
Speaker 1: Wow. And I imagine you hadn't met him when you

478
00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:43,836
Speaker 1: were younger, right.

479
00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:45,516
Speaker 3: I had met him when I was younger because my

480
00:21:45,556 --> 00:21:48,316
Speaker 3: father played on I don't remember one of the records

481
00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:50,276
Speaker 3: or a project that he was doing, so and through

482
00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:52,836
Speaker 3: Quincy i'd made him, but we were not friendly. He

483
00:21:52,836 --> 00:21:55,196
Speaker 3: didn't know me from Adam, but I'd been around him.

484
00:21:55,196 --> 00:22:00,596
Speaker 1: Wow. But now to work with him on a project crazy,

485
00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:01,676
Speaker 1: What was that like?

486
00:22:02,316 --> 00:22:05,236
Speaker 3: It was one of the best experiences of my life

487
00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:08,676
Speaker 3: because it perpetuated the idea and the culture that I

488
00:22:08,676 --> 00:22:10,716
Speaker 3: had been trying to build around how I made music,

489
00:22:10,796 --> 00:22:14,916
Speaker 3: which was there's no detail too small, there's no level

490
00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:18,716
Speaker 3: of expectation that's too high, and Michael lived at In

491
00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:22,236
Speaker 3: everything that he did, he would never settle. He was

492
00:22:22,276 --> 00:22:24,636
Speaker 3: always pushing the boundaries. He would always he would go

493
00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:28,836
Speaker 3: back and do anything a hundred times. And being around

494
00:22:28,876 --> 00:22:31,436
Speaker 3: that was right in line with my belief system and

495
00:22:31,476 --> 00:22:32,956
Speaker 3: the way I wanted to make music. So it was

496
00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:35,996
Speaker 3: a very natural I won't say partnership because I was

497
00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:37,996
Speaker 3: clearly not his partner, but it was a very natural

498
00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:42,876
Speaker 3: working relationship. And again I was fortunate. I had been

499
00:22:42,916 --> 00:22:45,556
Speaker 3: around big artists. I'd been in the studio my whole life,

500
00:22:45,596 --> 00:22:48,276
Speaker 3: so unlike a lot of people that would come into

501
00:22:48,276 --> 00:22:51,276
Speaker 3: those sessions, I wasn't nervous and freaking out, like, oh

502
00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:52,396
Speaker 3: my god, what am I going to do? I can't

503
00:22:52,396 --> 00:22:55,516
Speaker 3: look at Michael Jackson. I was able to just be

504
00:22:55,596 --> 00:22:58,716
Speaker 3: creative and collaborate. And also I was there in some

505
00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:01,116
Speaker 3: degree to support Rodney. Rodney was the main producer. I

506
00:23:01,156 --> 00:23:04,956
Speaker 3: worked for him, so I was able to bring some

507
00:23:05,036 --> 00:23:07,876
Speaker 3: value I like to think and had an incredible experience,

508
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:10,196
Speaker 3: and I learned so much from both Rodney and Michael.

509
00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:13,876
Speaker 3: But again, it just continued the tradition of that was

510
00:23:13,876 --> 00:23:16,916
Speaker 3: set by Quincy, that was set by coach Liutolsen. That

511
00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:19,236
Speaker 3: was then set by other people that I've been around,

512
00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:22,316
Speaker 3: which is you don't just do something.

513
00:23:22,036 --> 00:23:22,396
Speaker 2: To do it.

514
00:23:22,436 --> 00:23:24,676
Speaker 3: You do it to be excellent at it, and you

515
00:23:24,676 --> 00:23:27,436
Speaker 3: have intention, and you improve and you iterate and you

516
00:23:28,276 --> 00:23:30,876
Speaker 3: try and make something special. And I never wanted to

517
00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:32,636
Speaker 3: be a guy that just cranked out a bunch of songs.

518
00:23:32,636 --> 00:23:34,116
Speaker 3: I wanted to make things that were special.

519
00:23:34,276 --> 00:23:34,476
Speaker 2: Yeah.

520
00:23:35,396 --> 00:23:37,916
Speaker 1: Where was Michael's head at at that point?

521
00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:40,596
Speaker 3: He had come off the biggest records in the world

522
00:23:40,636 --> 00:23:41,996
Speaker 3: and he wanted to make the next.

523
00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:42,956
Speaker 2: Biggest record in the world.

524
00:23:43,036 --> 00:23:45,796
Speaker 3: You know, he had done Dangerous, he'd done those records,

525
00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:47,036
Speaker 3: and I think there was one after that.

526
00:23:47,596 --> 00:23:50,476
Speaker 1: History, which is also jam and Lewis did a lot

527
00:23:50,516 --> 00:23:51,036
Speaker 1: on the Yep.

528
00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:54,596
Speaker 3: Yeah and Teddy did the Dangerous record. So this was

529
00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:58,476
Speaker 3: a point where he'd had a gap between records. But

530
00:23:58,556 --> 00:24:00,916
Speaker 3: I'll never forget he kept saying, we have to be

531
00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:02,876
Speaker 3: the biggest selling record of all time. And that was

532
00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:05,196
Speaker 3: how we walked into the studio every day and we

533
00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:06,636
Speaker 3: would play a song for him and he said, I've

534
00:24:06,676 --> 00:24:08,356
Speaker 3: heard a song like that before, and we would have

535
00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:11,556
Speaker 3: a drum program playing any like those sounds don't sound

536
00:24:11,596 --> 00:24:14,196
Speaker 3: like something I've never heard before. Make sounds that I've

537
00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:16,556
Speaker 3: never heard before. I don't want something that I've heard before.

538
00:24:16,676 --> 00:24:20,236
Speaker 3: So that was another lesson. You're not following your leading.

539
00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:23,556
Speaker 1: That's insane. And were you with the project the whole, like,

540
00:24:23,556 --> 00:24:24,636
Speaker 1: from beginning to end or.

541
00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:25,716
Speaker 2: Not to the end?

542
00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:28,276
Speaker 3: I was from the beginning. When Rodney first started, it

543
00:24:28,316 --> 00:24:31,396
Speaker 3: was in nineteen ninety eight, and we ended in two

544
00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:34,276
Speaker 3: thousand and the project continued after I left Dark Child

545
00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:37,476
Speaker 3: for about I don't know, probably four or five months

546
00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:39,956
Speaker 3: to complete the record, but we did I think forty

547
00:24:39,996 --> 00:24:43,236
Speaker 3: songs forty five songs with Michael. A bunch of them

548
00:24:43,236 --> 00:24:45,476
Speaker 3: are still in the can, which is interesting to see

549
00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:47,076
Speaker 3: if they'll ever come out. And then when I left

550
00:24:47,156 --> 00:24:49,556
Speaker 3: Dark Child, Rodney went on to finish that record. I

551
00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:51,836
Speaker 3: think it took a couple more months. Wow, there was

552
00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:55,276
Speaker 3: a lot of controversy around that record at that time

553
00:24:55,356 --> 00:25:00,036
Speaker 3: in two thousand, Tommy Mottola was running Sony Records. We

554
00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:02,356
Speaker 3: had spent a ton of money. I can't even imagine

555
00:25:02,396 --> 00:25:04,876
Speaker 3: the millions of dollars we had spent on that Michael record.

556
00:25:05,276 --> 00:25:07,796
Speaker 3: We were running three four studios at a time at

557
00:25:07,796 --> 00:25:10,716
Speaker 3: Sony Records or Hit Factory, New York, and at that

558
00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:15,716
Speaker 3: time we're using Sony digital digital tape machines thirty three

559
00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:17,476
Speaker 3: forty eight they were called, and we had two of

560
00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:19,316
Speaker 3: them in each room, and they were twenty five hundred

561
00:25:19,356 --> 00:25:21,076
Speaker 3: bucks a day, and we were renting them for you know,

562
00:25:21,076 --> 00:25:23,716
Speaker 3: there's six of them sitting there, and sometimes we wouldn't

563
00:25:23,756 --> 00:25:25,796
Speaker 3: get records done in a day, or Michael might not

564
00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:27,596
Speaker 3: feel in good voice and may not want to sing

565
00:25:27,636 --> 00:25:30,116
Speaker 3: for a couple of days, and just running through money.

566
00:25:30,116 --> 00:25:33,796
Speaker 3: So Tommy, really I will say, shut the project down,

567
00:25:33,836 --> 00:25:36,916
Speaker 3: but he definitely was getting anxious and wanted us to

568
00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:40,076
Speaker 3: turn into record. So there was some contentious times in

569
00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:42,836
Speaker 3: that project that I left just near the end of

570
00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:44,756
Speaker 3: that and then obviously rodden. You got it back on

571
00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:46,516
Speaker 3: track and the record came out.

572
00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:47,716
Speaker 1: Were you feeling nervous at all?

573
00:25:47,716 --> 00:25:50,916
Speaker 3: I mean, Millions of All is always very nervous, mostly

574
00:25:50,956 --> 00:25:55,796
Speaker 3: nervous about Tommy Mattola and you know, the Sony of

575
00:25:55,836 --> 00:25:58,116
Speaker 3: it all never from Michael, and Michael was always very

576
00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:00,556
Speaker 3: confident and he was very generous and reassuring. He's like,

577
00:26:00,916 --> 00:26:03,396
Speaker 3: we're making something special. We can't rush that. There's no

578
00:26:03,476 --> 00:26:06,156
Speaker 3: price tag on that. Yeah, Michael was very upset. I

579
00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:09,636
Speaker 3: don't want maybe I'm spilling dirty laundry here, but Michael

580
00:26:09,676 --> 00:26:11,876
Speaker 3: was upset that Tommy was trying to restrict you know,

581
00:26:11,996 --> 00:26:15,636
Speaker 3: what he was putting out. And obviously they figured it out,

582
00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:18,396
Speaker 3: but that was over my pay grade. And however that happened,

583
00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:19,916
Speaker 3: I'm not sure when the record came out.

584
00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:21,116
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all good.

585
00:26:21,276 --> 00:26:23,916
Speaker 1: It's it's insane, man, that's insane.

586
00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:26,156
Speaker 3: But also it was a different time in music, you know,

587
00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:28,916
Speaker 3: and Tommy was dominant. Think of all the artists he

588
00:26:28,956 --> 00:26:31,196
Speaker 3: had at Sony and all the records he was they

589
00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:36,116
Speaker 3: were massive hits and he and Michael had I think,

590
00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:37,276
Speaker 3: some great success together.

591
00:26:37,356 --> 00:26:39,876
Speaker 1: So and it's funny because Michael was also the blueprint

592
00:26:39,956 --> 00:26:43,956
Speaker 1: for everything that was hitting at that time, but also

593
00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:48,396
Speaker 1: was maybe you know, viewed as past his prime a bit,

594
00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:50,716
Speaker 1: even though he just had you know whatever, that screen

595
00:26:50,716 --> 00:26:51,996
Speaker 1: record with Janet.

596
00:26:51,716 --> 00:26:53,676
Speaker 3: And Yeah, I could sense some of that from him,

597
00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:56,076
Speaker 3: where he felt like he was there was a pressure

598
00:26:56,116 --> 00:26:59,556
Speaker 3: on him to perform the way he did before, and

599
00:26:59,596 --> 00:27:01,516
Speaker 3: he was maybe a little bit nervous if he was

600
00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:03,676
Speaker 3: going to be able to but covering that nervousness with

601
00:27:03,756 --> 00:27:06,956
Speaker 3: confidence and excitement and drive and pushing.

602
00:27:07,276 --> 00:27:08,876
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's wild, man.

603
00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:09,956
Speaker 2: That was a great experience.

604
00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:12,396
Speaker 1: That's wild. Then you go on and you start your

605
00:27:12,396 --> 00:27:15,196
Speaker 1: own thing, right like you're the Underdogs.

606
00:27:15,516 --> 00:27:17,276
Speaker 3: Yeah, just on the heels of Dark Child. I started

607
00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:19,876
Speaker 3: a production company and linked up with a guy who

608
00:27:19,956 --> 00:27:24,116
Speaker 3: actually had thought about joining Dark Child and wrote a

609
00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:26,076
Speaker 3: couple of songs with us while we were at dark Child,

610
00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:27,916
Speaker 3: but it ended up not working out. And his name

611
00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:32,476
Speaker 3: was Damon Thomas, and Rodney always thought he's very talented,

612
00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:34,156
Speaker 3: but I don't think he's part of dark Child. So

613
00:27:34,636 --> 00:27:39,196
Speaker 3: after I left and I'd split from dark Child, Damon

614
00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:41,276
Speaker 3: and I connected and wrote a song together and people

615
00:27:41,316 --> 00:27:43,076
Speaker 3: liked it, and so that's how we started the Underdogs.

616
00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:46,076
Speaker 1: It's incredible. We'll be right back with more from Harvard

617
00:27:46,076 --> 00:27:52,596
Speaker 1: Mason Junior after the break. So how do you go

618
00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:58,836
Speaker 1: from you know, it's already a pretty incredible trajectory, but

619
00:27:59,196 --> 00:28:01,116
Speaker 1: then to do that and then in around the year

620
00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:03,636
Speaker 1: two thousand and two thousand and one, and then to

621
00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:07,796
Speaker 1: roughly a couple of decades later being the head of

622
00:28:07,796 --> 00:28:12,556
Speaker 1: the recording Academy, that's another it's a little ways in,

623
00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:18,316
Speaker 1: but that's another wild left turn in your trajectory.

624
00:28:17,956 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 3: Definitely not an expected or planned journey, but I do

625
00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:26,636
Speaker 3: Maybe this is too philosophical, but I just kind of

626
00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:33,836
Speaker 3: appreciate the moment and I don't try and predetermine every step.

627
00:28:34,476 --> 00:28:36,716
Speaker 3: And I also believe, and I talk to my kids

628
00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:40,396
Speaker 3: a lot about this, there's no wrong moves as long

629
00:28:40,396 --> 00:28:43,756
Speaker 3: as you're not doing anything illegal or hurting yourself or

630
00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:46,996
Speaker 3: somebody else. Like, if something comes in it feels like

631
00:28:48,276 --> 00:28:51,676
Speaker 3: a challenge or interesting to you, then I encourage people

632
00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:54,876
Speaker 3: to try that. Especially when you're coming through the early

633
00:28:54,876 --> 00:28:56,996
Speaker 3: stages of your life, you can afford to try things

634
00:28:56,996 --> 00:28:59,916
Speaker 3: and you can experiment. So once we were doing The Underdogs,

635
00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:04,756
Speaker 3: we had had some success there, and a woman asked

636
00:29:04,756 --> 00:29:06,316
Speaker 3: me if I would be interested in getting involved with

637
00:29:06,356 --> 00:29:11,036
Speaker 3: the Recording Academy. We'd had success and made some little

638
00:29:11,076 --> 00:29:14,956
Speaker 3: money and built a reputation. I thought the Academy was

639
00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:18,116
Speaker 3: really cool because, well, honestly, first I thought it was

640
00:29:18,116 --> 00:29:20,276
Speaker 3: cool because I could vote for myself to win a Grammy.

641
00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:22,396
Speaker 3: So that's why I first joined.

642
00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:25,676
Speaker 1: The reason I joined, yeah, I mean that was the

643
00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:26,676
Speaker 1: reason value.

644
00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:28,476
Speaker 2: Oh, I can vote a Producer of the Year. Yeah,

645
00:29:28,556 --> 00:29:29,236
Speaker 2: I want to join.

646
00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:33,116
Speaker 3: But I quickly realized that it's a really great organization

647
00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:38,316
Speaker 3: that is entirely built and exists only to serve music people.

648
00:29:38,756 --> 00:29:41,196
Speaker 3: And I was my whole life. You know from our talk,

649
00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:42,836
Speaker 3: you know I'm a music person from the time I

650
00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:44,956
Speaker 3: was nine years old, and my family were music people.

651
00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:48,636
Speaker 3: So being a part of the Recording Academy was instantly

652
00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:51,316
Speaker 3: exciting and appealing, just as a board member, just first

653
00:29:51,356 --> 00:29:54,356
Speaker 3: as a member, then an elected board member, then a

654
00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:57,196
Speaker 3: national officer, and then they elected me to be the

655
00:29:57,236 --> 00:29:59,396
Speaker 3: chair of the Board of the Recording Academy, and I

656
00:29:59,436 --> 00:30:01,556
Speaker 3: was honored and thrilled because I knew I could serve

657
00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:04,836
Speaker 3: our community in that role. And then there came a

658
00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:06,836
Speaker 3: time where they asked me if I would be the CEO,

659
00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:11,116
Speaker 3: and that changes from a volunteer position to a real

660
00:30:11,236 --> 00:30:13,036
Speaker 3: job and coming in the building and.

661
00:30:14,516 --> 00:30:15,876
Speaker 2: Working directly with the staff.

662
00:30:15,916 --> 00:30:18,396
Speaker 3: And so that was a decision that was again not planned,

663
00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:21,636
Speaker 3: is not something I was aspiring to do or looking

664
00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:24,756
Speaker 3: forward to, but I saw it as an opportunity to

665
00:30:24,796 --> 00:30:26,596
Speaker 3: give back and to serve and to make a difference

666
00:30:26,596 --> 00:30:29,556
Speaker 3: in music people's lives, and that's what excited me at

667
00:30:29,556 --> 00:30:30,436
Speaker 3: that point in my life.

668
00:30:30,636 --> 00:30:33,236
Speaker 1: Also was a bit of a precarious time to come

669
00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:36,636
Speaker 1: in like it might have felt like I it could

670
00:30:36,676 --> 00:30:40,036
Speaker 1: have felt also, I mean not that you seemed to

671
00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:42,716
Speaker 1: be a person who takes into account what could go wrong,

672
00:30:43,236 --> 00:30:45,596
Speaker 1: which is based on all the moves you make in life.

673
00:30:45,636 --> 00:30:48,956
Speaker 2: But like you know, there was I've been accused of that.

674
00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:51,236
Speaker 1: But it also was like they didn't come in at

675
00:30:51,236 --> 00:30:55,196
Speaker 1: a very easy time to be CEO of the According Academy.

676
00:30:55,236 --> 00:30:56,516
Speaker 1: I'll say, I'll say it that way.

677
00:30:56,756 --> 00:31:00,236
Speaker 3: It was a really tough time. But you remember, as

678
00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:02,676
Speaker 3: the chair, I had seen what had happened and why

679
00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:05,476
Speaker 3: it had gotten to where it was, and I also

680
00:31:05,476 --> 00:31:08,596
Speaker 3: saw the good stuff. I saw how important impactfully the

681
00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:11,436
Speaker 3: organization was. So for me it was actually a really

682
00:31:11,476 --> 00:31:14,796
Speaker 3: good time because we were depleted, we were looked down

683
00:31:14,796 --> 00:31:17,236
Speaker 3: on at that point to some degree, and we had

684
00:31:17,476 --> 00:31:20,436
Speaker 3: room to go. And as you said, I'm definitely the

685
00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:23,236
Speaker 3: eternal optimist, and I saw exactly what needed to be

686
00:31:23,276 --> 00:31:25,596
Speaker 3: done and what could be done, and so I just

687
00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:28,156
Speaker 3: jumped in and I'd say, we've come a long way

688
00:31:28,196 --> 00:31:29,556
Speaker 3: in the last six years.

689
00:31:29,956 --> 00:31:34,156
Speaker 1: So when you did join, can you explain that dichotomy

690
00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:38,156
Speaker 1: you just mentioned where it's sort of the recording Academy

691
00:31:38,236 --> 00:31:41,916
Speaker 1: is sort of colored this way, but you're also seeing

692
00:31:42,716 --> 00:31:45,636
Speaker 1: all the great that it's done over you know, the

693
00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:48,396
Speaker 1: decade decad and a half that you've been working with them.

694
00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:51,396
Speaker 1: How did it end up sort of bifurcated that way

695
00:31:51,436 --> 00:31:53,076
Speaker 1: where it's like, there's some things that need to be

696
00:31:53,116 --> 00:31:55,596
Speaker 1: cleaned up, and then there's also all this great stuff

697
00:31:55,596 --> 00:31:56,516
Speaker 1: that you.

698
00:31:56,476 --> 00:31:59,236
Speaker 3: Know, some of it was the lack of storytelling and

699
00:31:59,276 --> 00:32:02,996
Speaker 3: awareness of what the Recording Academy actually did. Everybody really

700
00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:05,636
Speaker 3: knew us for the show and the Grammy Awards and

701
00:32:05,676 --> 00:32:08,916
Speaker 3: the nominations and the winds and the snubs and who

702
00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:10,716
Speaker 3: lost and who didn't get what they got and who

703
00:32:10,716 --> 00:32:14,156
Speaker 3: wasn't represented accurately or equitably, and then there's all the

704
00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:15,996
Speaker 3: other work that was being done. So one of the

705
00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:18,756
Speaker 3: first things I realized is this is an amazing organization.

706
00:32:18,756 --> 00:32:19,556
Speaker 2: They've been around.

707
00:32:19,316 --> 00:32:21,916
Speaker 3: Sixty two years when I got there, and hundreds of

708
00:32:21,916 --> 00:32:24,276
Speaker 3: millions of dollars into the community. And the way of

709
00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:27,076
Speaker 3: age is philanthropy or people who needed help, pain and

710
00:32:27,156 --> 00:32:32,316
Speaker 3: rent or bills, medical bills, education, advocacy. All the things

711
00:32:32,316 --> 00:32:34,676
Speaker 3: that were happening every year, whether or not somebody wanted

712
00:32:34,716 --> 00:32:37,476
Speaker 3: Grammy or not these things were going on. So the

713
00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:39,876
Speaker 3: first order was for us to figure out how to

714
00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:45,556
Speaker 3: tell that story inside our own industry, inside our own community,

715
00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:48,876
Speaker 3: because everybody was so focused on who was winning and

716
00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:51,196
Speaker 3: who was losing, and they were losing focus on why

717
00:32:51,236 --> 00:32:54,556
Speaker 3: the organization existed, has to lift up music and to

718
00:32:54,636 --> 00:32:57,716
Speaker 3: the benefit of music people. So because I was from

719
00:32:57,756 --> 00:33:00,196
Speaker 3: the industry and I had relationships with artists, I produced

720
00:33:00,236 --> 00:33:02,556
Speaker 3: most of the artists that were angry and some of

721
00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:05,116
Speaker 3: the artists that were happy. I spent a lot of

722
00:33:05,116 --> 00:33:07,036
Speaker 3: time my first couple of years just talking to people

723
00:33:07,076 --> 00:33:10,516
Speaker 3: and explaining why the organizations, why I'm here, because they

724
00:33:10,516 --> 00:33:12,076
Speaker 3: would say, heart of you're crazy, get out of there,

725
00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:14,476
Speaker 3: and I said, no, this is important, this is important.

726
00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:16,836
Speaker 1: I'm the only one who thought it would be a yeah,

727
00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:18,836
Speaker 1: it could be a strange move to make.

728
00:33:18,676 --> 00:33:21,436
Speaker 3: And it was a strange move, but I knew how

729
00:33:21,476 --> 00:33:24,676
Speaker 3: important it was. And I'm not trying to overinflate my

730
00:33:24,836 --> 00:33:27,876
Speaker 3: own contribution to that or even the importance of the

731
00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:30,796
Speaker 3: Grammy Organization in the world. There's a lot of things

732
00:33:30,836 --> 00:33:34,156
Speaker 3: going on in the world that are very problematic and challenging,

733
00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:36,836
Speaker 3: but when it comes to the music community and doing

734
00:33:36,956 --> 00:33:39,276
Speaker 3: right by music people. I'm very proud of what the

735
00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:41,956
Speaker 3: organization has done and over the last six years, has

736
00:33:42,476 --> 00:33:46,836
Speaker 3: evolved into doing. And I think that's important. I think

737
00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:52,516
Speaker 3: it's important. Based on all the other discrepancies or challenges

738
00:33:52,756 --> 00:33:58,156
Speaker 3: or politics, or inequities or struggles that we have in society,

739
00:33:58,356 --> 00:34:02,436
Speaker 3: music matters and the magic of a musician or a

740
00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:07,436
Speaker 3: creator is all powerful to me. And maybe I'm overinflating that,

741
00:34:07,516 --> 00:34:10,836
Speaker 3: but I truly believe it. And that's why the organization

742
00:34:11,036 --> 00:34:13,436
Speaker 3: and serving music people and making sure there's space and

743
00:34:13,556 --> 00:34:15,596
Speaker 3: a healthy ecosystem in a way for them to make

744
00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:19,836
Speaker 3: a living and protections, that's important and that's why I'm

745
00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:20,716
Speaker 3: passionate about it.

746
00:34:20,916 --> 00:34:23,796
Speaker 1: I don't think you're overstated in it at all. I mean,

747
00:34:23,956 --> 00:34:26,236
Speaker 1: you know, you think about music has been such a

748
00:34:26,316 --> 00:34:33,916
Speaker 1: driver of culture, American culture for you know, eighties, eight

749
00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:34,996
Speaker 1: seventy and.

750
00:34:35,116 --> 00:34:37,556
Speaker 2: It says the phonograph Really yeah, you think about.

751
00:34:37,356 --> 00:34:40,076
Speaker 1: It many decades, you know. I'm concerned about, like, how

752
00:34:40,116 --> 00:34:42,236
Speaker 1: do we make music fun again in a way both

753
00:34:42,276 --> 00:34:46,476
Speaker 1: for like the artist and for the consumer or the fan.

754
00:34:46,996 --> 00:34:50,116
Speaker 1: You know, so much of the discussion is AI and

755
00:34:50,156 --> 00:34:53,596
Speaker 1: streaming and sales numbers, and we kind of lose tracks,

756
00:34:53,636 --> 00:34:56,316
Speaker 1: sometimes of yeah, just that music's fun.

757
00:34:56,476 --> 00:34:58,756
Speaker 3: I would imagine the young people listening to music think

758
00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:02,196
Speaker 3: music is really fun. I think we might be looking

759
00:35:02,236 --> 00:35:04,436
Speaker 3: at it through our lens of it used to be

760
00:35:04,556 --> 00:35:07,356
Speaker 3: like this. Yeah, And that's the one thing as a creator,

761
00:35:08,076 --> 00:35:11,476
Speaker 3: as a business lead. And I'm sure you've experienced this,

762
00:35:11,516 --> 00:35:13,516
Speaker 3: and I know you've probably subscribed to the same philosophy.

763
00:35:14,036 --> 00:35:16,196
Speaker 3: As soon as you get caught up in looking at

764
00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:18,396
Speaker 3: it through the lens of how it used to be.

765
00:35:19,516 --> 00:35:21,716
Speaker 3: I think it's dangerous. I think it's a little bit risky.

766
00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:25,236
Speaker 3: There's always the nostalgic and that's okay, and that's healthy.

767
00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:28,356
Speaker 3: But I think music's incredibly fun. And I'm sure a

768
00:35:28,356 --> 00:35:30,356
Speaker 3: lot of music people who are making it now are

769
00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:31,916
Speaker 3: loving it the same way I loved it when.

770
00:35:31,836 --> 00:35:32,436
Speaker 2: I first started.

771
00:35:32,516 --> 00:35:35,116
Speaker 3: They're excited, they wake up dreaming about it, they can't

772
00:35:35,116 --> 00:35:37,196
Speaker 3: wait to get in what used to be the studio

773
00:35:37,236 --> 00:35:39,636
Speaker 3: now is probably their laptop to make a new song.

774
00:35:39,956 --> 00:35:42,436
Speaker 3: And regardless of what the technology is or the delivery

775
00:35:42,476 --> 00:35:45,796
Speaker 3: mechanism or how it's consumed, music has the same power.

776
00:35:45,996 --> 00:35:48,036
Speaker 3: Music has the same effect on people. You still see

777
00:35:48,076 --> 00:35:49,876
Speaker 3: them dancing to it at their weddings. You see them

778
00:35:49,916 --> 00:35:52,356
Speaker 3: crying to it in their car after a breakup. This

779
00:35:52,476 --> 00:35:55,996
Speaker 3: music is incredible, So I think what you're saying is

780
00:35:55,996 --> 00:36:00,436
Speaker 3: is definitely different. How it's made is different. And the

781
00:36:00,596 --> 00:36:04,196
Speaker 3: challenge that we have, you and I as lovers of

782
00:36:04,316 --> 00:36:07,956
Speaker 3: music and people who grew up listening to incredible artists

783
00:36:07,996 --> 00:36:11,716
Speaker 3: and artistry late on a record or on a cassettra CD,

784
00:36:12,516 --> 00:36:16,196
Speaker 3: is is the music being made now? Do they have

785
00:36:16,236 --> 00:36:18,276
Speaker 3: the same care behind it? Do they have the same intention,

786
00:36:18,636 --> 00:36:21,556
Speaker 3: the same talent behind it? And I don't think that's

787
00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:25,716
Speaker 3: what's as important. I think it's more important to say

788
00:36:25,796 --> 00:36:27,796
Speaker 3: what is being made, what is being created. Of course

789
00:36:27,796 --> 00:36:31,036
Speaker 3: there's issues around AI, and I'm not dismissing those concerns.

790
00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:34,476
Speaker 3: But I remember when I was a young kid, like

791
00:36:34,596 --> 00:36:37,356
Speaker 3: hip hop music that wasn't even looked at like music, Like, oh,

792
00:36:37,356 --> 00:36:39,356
Speaker 3: that's not music, it's just temper as a fad, that's

793
00:36:39,396 --> 00:36:41,116
Speaker 3: not you don't have to have any talent. They're not

794
00:36:41,156 --> 00:36:43,716
Speaker 3: even singing, they're not even playing instruments, they're just spinning records.

795
00:36:44,836 --> 00:36:46,916
Speaker 3: And when I was in that era, I was like, man,

796
00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:50,396
Speaker 3: that's an incredible talent. These hip hop artists are amazing

797
00:36:50,756 --> 00:36:52,596
Speaker 3: I would listen to them like how do they do that?

798
00:36:52,996 --> 00:36:54,756
Speaker 3: But the people before me didn't even think that was

799
00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:58,116
Speaker 3: a talent. So I think that's the challenge we have

800
00:36:58,276 --> 00:36:59,996
Speaker 3: is to look at how music is being made now

801
00:37:00,516 --> 00:37:02,396
Speaker 3: and make sure we recognize that it is a true

802
00:37:02,436 --> 00:37:05,236
Speaker 3: talent to be able to create things that move people today.

803
00:37:05,996 --> 00:37:09,996
Speaker 1: So I guess how you know, with the new technology

804
00:37:10,036 --> 00:37:11,996
Speaker 1: now and some of like what we're starting to see

805
00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:16,556
Speaker 1: as like a lot of souno and I mean we're

806
00:37:16,636 --> 00:37:19,756
Speaker 1: beyond not just not going to the studio anymore making

807
00:37:19,756 --> 00:37:22,276
Speaker 1: this stuff at home. How are you guys thinking about

808
00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:25,596
Speaker 1: that in terms of the organization.

809
00:37:25,916 --> 00:37:30,196
Speaker 3: Yeah, We're always going to champion and support and celebrate

810
00:37:30,276 --> 00:37:33,356
Speaker 3: human creativity end of statement.

811
00:37:34,076 --> 00:37:36,156
Speaker 2: How humans use tools is.

812
00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:37,876
Speaker 3: Something that's going to change, and we're going to continue

813
00:37:37,916 --> 00:37:40,636
Speaker 3: to look at every year. You know, we're fortunate we

814
00:37:40,636 --> 00:37:43,636
Speaker 3: have a board of trustees and a chair and membership

815
00:37:43,636 --> 00:37:46,476
Speaker 3: groups and awards and nominations committees that all look at

816
00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:48,836
Speaker 3: this stuff every day and they're in the weeds saying, Okay,

817
00:37:48,876 --> 00:37:49,596
Speaker 3: are we doing it right?

818
00:37:49,676 --> 00:37:50,516
Speaker 2: Are we getting it right?

819
00:37:51,036 --> 00:37:54,676
Speaker 3: And so as an organization, we'll always try and stay

820
00:37:54,676 --> 00:37:56,876
Speaker 3: ahead of what's happening, especially where we are now with

821
00:37:56,916 --> 00:37:58,836
Speaker 3: the bias for action and really making sure we're paying

822
00:37:58,836 --> 00:38:01,636
Speaker 3: attention and seeing around corners. But we are going to

823
00:38:01,636 --> 00:38:04,636
Speaker 3: celebrate human creativity. But we understand AI is a tool

824
00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:07,116
Speaker 3: that's going to be used, yeah fact, And if we

825
00:38:07,156 --> 00:38:10,076
Speaker 3: try and pretend like it's not or and ban it

826
00:38:10,116 --> 00:38:12,916
Speaker 3: and say we can't have AI in our industry, I

827
00:38:12,916 --> 00:38:14,956
Speaker 3: think we will have missed the plot and we will

828
00:38:14,956 --> 00:38:19,236
Speaker 3: have missed the opportunity to acknowledge how people are making music.

829
00:38:20,156 --> 00:38:22,396
Speaker 3: It's going to be a choice. I'm not saying everybody's

830
00:38:22,396 --> 00:38:23,996
Speaker 3: going to be using new technologies. There's going to be

831
00:38:24,036 --> 00:38:25,476
Speaker 3: some people that don't want to use it, and I'm

832
00:38:25,556 --> 00:38:28,396
Speaker 3: really good with that. As you can imagine, there's also

833
00:38:28,436 --> 00:38:30,876
Speaker 3: going to be people that see it as an opportunity

834
00:38:30,916 --> 00:38:32,956
Speaker 3: to come into the business in a time when maybe

835
00:38:32,956 --> 00:38:35,596
Speaker 3: they otherwise would not be able to do so, which

836
00:38:35,636 --> 00:38:39,076
Speaker 3: is very analogous to when I started, I was making

837
00:38:39,116 --> 00:38:41,156
Speaker 3: records on tape, but then when pro tools came out,

838
00:38:41,276 --> 00:38:43,716
Speaker 3: a whole group of people were able to now sing

839
00:38:43,716 --> 00:38:45,636
Speaker 3: because they could do unlimited takes and they could put

840
00:38:45,636 --> 00:38:48,196
Speaker 3: auto tune on their voice. They could chop things together,

841
00:38:48,436 --> 00:38:51,156
Speaker 3: whereas before they couldn't and that created a whole new,

842
00:38:51,156 --> 00:38:55,356
Speaker 3: exciting influx of talented people. So where we are again

843
00:38:55,476 --> 00:38:58,316
Speaker 3: is celebrate human creativity. We're not going to allow AI

844
00:38:58,476 --> 00:39:01,956
Speaker 3: to overrun our members, our human creators, our human singers,

845
00:39:01,996 --> 00:39:05,636
Speaker 3: our human songwriters. But for now, we see it as

846
00:39:06,436 --> 00:39:09,956
Speaker 3: a viable tool towards creation, and there's a line that

847
00:39:10,396 --> 00:39:12,436
Speaker 3: we have to decide where that is how much can

848
00:39:12,516 --> 00:39:13,076
Speaker 3: be used?

849
00:39:13,356 --> 00:39:15,076
Speaker 1: Do you know where that line is? Right now?

850
00:39:15,396 --> 00:39:15,916
Speaker 2: Right now?

851
00:39:16,036 --> 00:39:19,196
Speaker 3: It's you know, we feel like we have an understanding

852
00:39:19,196 --> 00:39:22,236
Speaker 3: of where the line is. It's a majority of human creativity,

853
00:39:22,276 --> 00:39:25,196
Speaker 3: and that can be interpreted a couple of different ways,

854
00:39:25,316 --> 00:39:26,916
Speaker 3: And for now we're going to leave it a little

855
00:39:26,916 --> 00:39:31,556
Speaker 3: bit not ambiguous, but flexible because technology is changing so quickly,

856
00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:34,476
Speaker 3: and while the Copyright Office still also doesn't know what

857
00:39:34,516 --> 00:39:37,596
Speaker 3: the threshold is for a human creativity and a copyrightable moment.

858
00:39:37,916 --> 00:39:40,156
Speaker 3: Is it two prompts? Is it five prompts? Is it

859
00:39:40,596 --> 00:39:42,916
Speaker 3: a prompt and a temple change and a key change?

860
00:39:42,916 --> 00:39:46,236
Speaker 3: There's so many uncertainties. What I want to make sure

861
00:39:46,316 --> 00:39:48,636
Speaker 3: we do as an organization, what I think our board

862
00:39:48,996 --> 00:39:51,076
Speaker 3: and our elected leadership want to do as an organization,

863
00:39:51,116 --> 00:39:53,196
Speaker 3: and make sure we're honoring music in the way that

864
00:39:53,196 --> 00:39:56,796
Speaker 3: it's being made and created while still maintaining the ultimate

865
00:39:56,836 --> 00:40:00,196
Speaker 3: respect to the human creativity, because that's important. And now

866
00:40:00,196 --> 00:40:03,996
Speaker 3: I've said it so many times. A computer is not

867
00:40:04,036 --> 00:40:06,676
Speaker 3: going to replace what's in here. A computer is not

868
00:40:06,676 --> 00:40:10,556
Speaker 3: going to have that interpersonal sperience that we have and

869
00:40:10,636 --> 00:40:13,556
Speaker 3: be able to regurgitate that just because they've ingested a

870
00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:18,156
Speaker 3: bunch of songs. What computers can do is make some cool,

871
00:40:18,276 --> 00:40:24,276
Speaker 3: algorithmic sounding music that I think will hopefully amplify or

872
00:40:24,476 --> 00:40:27,596
Speaker 3: enhance what we as humans can make and inspire us

873
00:40:27,636 --> 00:40:29,716
Speaker 3: to do something new and different. What's going to be

874
00:40:29,756 --> 00:40:33,836
Speaker 3: really differentiating us from generative music is going to be

875
00:40:33,876 --> 00:40:36,716
Speaker 3: something that the computer hasn't ever been able to figure out,

876
00:40:36,996 --> 00:40:39,636
Speaker 3: They've probably never heard before. And so I think there's

877
00:40:39,676 --> 00:40:42,996
Speaker 3: a great opportunity for us as a creative community to

878
00:40:43,036 --> 00:40:45,956
Speaker 3: take this challenge, take this moment, and really push the

879
00:40:45,996 --> 00:40:47,956
Speaker 3: boundaries of how we're creating and what we're creating.

880
00:40:48,196 --> 00:40:51,156
Speaker 1: Do you worry at all? That? And then interim and

881
00:40:51,196 --> 00:40:53,036
Speaker 1: this time where we're sort of figuring out where the

882
00:40:53,076 --> 00:40:56,076
Speaker 1: line is and exactly where our house is all going

883
00:40:56,116 --> 00:41:01,516
Speaker 1: to shake out legally, culturally, within the academy. I could

884
00:41:01,756 --> 00:41:03,676
Speaker 1: see easily us getting in a place where people just

885
00:41:03,716 --> 00:41:06,556
Speaker 1: assume things are being made, you know, like where people

886
00:41:06,636 --> 00:41:10,516
Speaker 1: assume that more ais maybe being used and is or

887
00:41:10,556 --> 00:41:13,196
Speaker 1: maybe it is and maybe like or maybe we get

888
00:41:13,236 --> 00:41:16,156
Speaker 1: to a point where there is a lot of you know,

889
00:41:16,236 --> 00:41:20,956
Speaker 1: quote unquote AI slop making it into playlists or whatever

890
00:41:21,076 --> 00:41:26,076
Speaker 1: or even onto records that might end up becoming nominated

891
00:41:26,156 --> 00:41:26,996
Speaker 1: Grammy nominated.

892
00:41:27,116 --> 00:41:27,316
Speaker 2: You know.

893
00:41:27,356 --> 00:41:29,076
Speaker 1: So do you worry in the interim as we're figuring

894
00:41:29,116 --> 00:41:31,556
Speaker 1: it all this out the quality control of in the

895
00:41:31,596 --> 00:41:33,676
Speaker 1: perception for fans, we worry.

896
00:41:33,716 --> 00:41:35,796
Speaker 3: We don't worry about the quality control because that's really

897
00:41:35,836 --> 00:41:39,276
Speaker 3: not our job. We worry about making sure that there's

898
00:41:40,276 --> 00:41:44,956
Speaker 3: guardrails in place because my version of quality might not

899
00:41:45,036 --> 00:41:46,596
Speaker 3: be your version of quality. I don't think we should

900
00:41:46,596 --> 00:41:48,796
Speaker 3: be regulating that. But what we do want to make

901
00:41:48,836 --> 00:41:51,836
Speaker 3: sure is that there are rules in place that protect

902
00:41:51,916 --> 00:41:54,556
Speaker 3: human creativity. And yes, we worry about it every day,

903
00:41:54,636 --> 00:41:57,596
Speaker 3: and it's something that we talk about around our awards

904
00:41:57,636 --> 00:42:01,196
Speaker 3: about submissions. You know, how do we categorize music? How

905
00:42:01,196 --> 00:42:02,996
Speaker 3: do we talk about as their language that we can

906
00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:06,116
Speaker 3: attach to certain things? Are the thresholds that people need

907
00:42:06,156 --> 00:42:08,516
Speaker 3: to declare before they enter. So all those things are

908
00:42:08,556 --> 00:42:12,356
Speaker 3: talked about on a daily, weekly basis. And as I said,

909
00:42:12,396 --> 00:42:14,596
Speaker 3: it's moving so quickly. We have to be diligent and

910
00:42:14,596 --> 00:42:16,836
Speaker 3: we have to stay on top of it. And I

911
00:42:16,836 --> 00:42:18,316
Speaker 3: can tell you we absolutely are.

912
00:42:18,476 --> 00:42:22,396
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, we're getting into like a like a trust

913
00:42:22,396 --> 00:42:25,396
Speaker 1: but verify trust, but verify stage of things.

914
00:42:25,396 --> 00:42:27,476
Speaker 3: It's just weird, it is, and it's going to continue

915
00:42:27,516 --> 00:42:30,916
Speaker 3: to be weird. There's you know, detection tools that we're

916
00:42:30,956 --> 00:42:33,236
Speaker 3: experimenting with, and I know other people are as well.

917
00:42:33,276 --> 00:42:36,676
Speaker 3: There's requests that we're making on the advocacy level federally,

918
00:42:36,876 --> 00:42:40,236
Speaker 3: you know, legislation that we'd like to see put in place.

919
00:42:40,356 --> 00:42:43,756
Speaker 3: There's labeling things that we're asking from streamers or other

920
00:42:45,596 --> 00:42:47,756
Speaker 3: places people get their music. So all those things are

921
00:42:47,756 --> 00:42:49,716
Speaker 3: things we talk about and think about to make sure

922
00:42:49,756 --> 00:42:52,676
Speaker 3: that the consumers aware because that's a big part of it.

923
00:42:52,716 --> 00:42:55,236
Speaker 3: We want to make sure there's not deception. If you're

924
00:42:55,316 --> 00:42:57,396
Speaker 3: using AI, you think that's part of your process and

925
00:42:57,436 --> 00:42:59,556
Speaker 3: you want to do it, I think that's okay if

926
00:42:59,596 --> 00:43:01,636
Speaker 3: you can tell the consumers how it's being used, as

927
00:43:01,636 --> 00:43:04,836
Speaker 3: long as you're not infringing on somebody else's copyright, using

928
00:43:04,876 --> 00:43:08,516
Speaker 3: somebody else's music, and ingesting training on that we're outputting

929
00:43:08,556 --> 00:43:10,916
Speaker 3: it and not can considering where you were learned, where

930
00:43:10,916 --> 00:43:13,636
Speaker 3: you learn from. Also making sure if you're using an

931
00:43:13,716 --> 00:43:16,956
Speaker 3: artist's voice or likeness is there, an approval is there,

932
00:43:17,036 --> 00:43:21,036
Speaker 3: remuneration is there the right credit. So those are all

933
00:43:21,116 --> 00:43:21,876
Speaker 3: things that we think about.

934
00:43:21,996 --> 00:43:25,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, after the break the rest of my conversation with

935
00:43:25,396 --> 00:43:32,156
Speaker 1: Harvey Mason Jr. We're an interesting time where I feel

936
00:43:32,196 --> 00:43:35,196
Speaker 1: like a lot of the traditional gatekeepers of music, and

937
00:43:35,236 --> 00:43:36,956
Speaker 1: again I don't want to I don't not using gatekeeper

938
00:43:36,996 --> 00:43:39,756
Speaker 1: in a bad way. I'm talking about people like Clive

939
00:43:39,836 --> 00:43:42,676
Speaker 1: Davis who we just lost, or Pancy Jones we've talked about,

940
00:43:42,756 --> 00:43:46,196
Speaker 1: or Mo Austin who just like people who were kind

941
00:43:46,236 --> 00:43:49,876
Speaker 1: of in their their taste sort of dictated what got

942
00:43:49,956 --> 00:43:52,516
Speaker 1: down to the consumer level and had a lot of

943
00:43:52,556 --> 00:43:57,356
Speaker 1: success with that. And certainly we're in a more decentralized

944
00:43:57,436 --> 00:44:01,156
Speaker 1: era now. So do you do you view the recording

945
00:44:01,236 --> 00:44:09,116
Speaker 1: academy as being needing to move in a more decentralized

946
00:44:09,196 --> 00:44:10,756
Speaker 1: sort of way, or do do you sort of view

947
00:44:10,796 --> 00:44:15,236
Speaker 1: it as being an arbiter for what is good in music?

948
00:44:15,396 --> 00:44:16,476
Speaker 1: How do you think about that?

949
00:44:16,596 --> 00:44:18,196
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I mean that's tough.

950
00:44:19,076 --> 00:44:23,516
Speaker 3: What I view it as is a unique award given

951
00:44:23,556 --> 00:44:27,076
Speaker 3: by your peers for excellence in any different field of

952
00:44:27,196 --> 00:44:30,716
Speaker 3: recording arts and sciences. And we don't claim to say

953
00:44:31,236 --> 00:44:36,276
Speaker 3: what is better than something else, or try and say

954
00:44:36,316 --> 00:44:38,236
Speaker 3: this is the only way you do it, and this

955
00:44:38,276 --> 00:44:40,836
Speaker 3: is how you make a successful record or song. We

956
00:44:40,876 --> 00:44:43,836
Speaker 3: have roughly sixteen thousand voters, and those voters are all

957
00:44:43,956 --> 00:44:49,876
Speaker 3: music professionals, so it's subjective and sometimes what they like

958
00:44:49,956 --> 00:44:51,996
Speaker 3: might not be what the general public likes. And that's

959
00:44:51,996 --> 00:44:54,676
Speaker 3: when we get into some of these times when people think, oh, well,

960
00:44:55,116 --> 00:44:57,716
Speaker 3: the Academy snubbed something. Well, the Academy is made up

961
00:44:57,716 --> 00:45:00,676
Speaker 3: of professional music people and those people are going to

962
00:45:00,756 --> 00:45:04,356
Speaker 3: have opinions and tastes. And the reason that the voting

963
00:45:04,396 --> 00:45:06,756
Speaker 3: membership is important is it's got to be diverse. It's

964
00:45:06,756 --> 00:45:08,956
Speaker 3: got to spread across different genres of music. It has

965
00:45:08,996 --> 00:45:11,396
Speaker 3: to have different people because, as I said, the two

966
00:45:11,396 --> 00:45:13,836
Speaker 3: of us might not align on what is excellent.

967
00:45:13,916 --> 00:45:15,556
Speaker 2: But if you get a big enough group, and you

968
00:45:15,596 --> 00:45:16,356
Speaker 2: get a group of.

969
00:45:16,916 --> 00:45:22,116
Speaker 3: People that have different likes and different experiences and different expertise,

970
00:45:22,436 --> 00:45:25,036
Speaker 3: then you get I think a generally a good feel

971
00:45:25,116 --> 00:45:28,756
Speaker 3: for a subjective outcome of what's excellent for that year.

972
00:45:29,196 --> 00:45:34,156
Speaker 3: And so I don't think we need to change that drastically,

973
00:45:34,196 --> 00:45:36,196
Speaker 3: because that's what makes us different is it's not a

974
00:45:36,236 --> 00:45:38,796
Speaker 3: popularity contest. It's not about how many streams you had,

975
00:45:39,236 --> 00:45:42,196
Speaker 3: how many journalists review your thing five stars, about the

976
00:45:42,196 --> 00:45:45,836
Speaker 3: people who make music every day, writers, producers, engineers, singers,

977
00:45:46,156 --> 00:45:48,156
Speaker 3: people who work in our business. They listen to the

978
00:45:48,276 --> 00:45:50,436
Speaker 3: music and they decide what they like in any given year.

979
00:45:50,596 --> 00:45:53,756
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, when you took over, you got rid of

980
00:45:54,236 --> 00:45:57,756
Speaker 1: quote unquotes like sort of secret nominating or how would you.

981
00:45:57,836 --> 00:46:01,396
Speaker 2: The nominations committees. Yeah, they called them the secret committees.

982
00:46:01,476 --> 00:46:04,236
Speaker 1: The secret committee was that like, internally we.

983
00:46:04,236 --> 00:46:06,556
Speaker 3: Didn't call it that people did and they were trying

984
00:46:06,556 --> 00:46:08,836
Speaker 3: to demonize those committees, and those committees were really important,

985
00:46:08,836 --> 00:46:10,916
Speaker 3: they sort to purpose for a time. And the reason

986
00:46:10,956 --> 00:46:13,476
Speaker 3: they thought they were secret was because we never disclosed

987
00:46:13,476 --> 00:46:16,156
Speaker 3: who was on those committees, because we were afraid of

988
00:46:16,196 --> 00:46:19,676
Speaker 3: those people getting lobbied or getting squeezed to make sure

989
00:46:19,676 --> 00:46:22,716
Speaker 3: they're giving people nominations. But those committees were made up

990
00:46:22,716 --> 00:46:25,316
Speaker 3: of music professionals, and so we would have a nominating

991
00:46:25,316 --> 00:46:29,516
Speaker 3: committee for pop one for rock, one for jazz, and

992
00:46:29,596 --> 00:46:33,476
Speaker 3: on that committee would be the leading jazz creators or

993
00:46:33,556 --> 00:46:36,676
Speaker 3: leading pop creators, and they would not decide who got

994
00:46:36,716 --> 00:46:40,076
Speaker 3: the nomination, but ultimately narrow down the field to some degree.

995
00:46:40,196 --> 00:46:42,836
Speaker 3: And it was a step that was put in place

996
00:46:42,876 --> 00:46:46,156
Speaker 3: in a time when maybe the membership wasn't as diverse,

997
00:46:46,196 --> 00:46:49,196
Speaker 3: and it wasn't as experienced across different genres of music.

998
00:46:49,236 --> 00:46:50,876
Speaker 3: And at that time, when I first got here, you

999
00:46:50,876 --> 00:46:52,116
Speaker 3: could vote anywhere on the ballot.

1000
00:46:52,596 --> 00:46:52,876
Speaker 2: You could.

1001
00:46:53,436 --> 00:46:55,436
Speaker 3: You might have had a song in the nineteen sixties

1002
00:46:55,756 --> 00:46:58,916
Speaker 3: and you're still voting for best Hip Hop Artists, and

1003
00:46:58,956 --> 00:47:01,276
Speaker 3: you might not even know that genre, but you recognize

1004
00:47:01,276 --> 00:47:03,956
Speaker 3: a name, and so the nomination review committees would try

1005
00:47:03,996 --> 00:47:08,596
Speaker 3: to prevent that from happening. But once we started, as

1006
00:47:08,636 --> 00:47:10,636
Speaker 3: you were touching, you know, and I got in the role,

1007
00:47:10,996 --> 00:47:14,276
Speaker 3: we quickly realized that the nomination review committees were no

1008
00:47:14,316 --> 00:47:18,876
Speaker 3: longer necessary, provided that we could upgrade our membership and

1009
00:47:18,996 --> 00:47:21,756
Speaker 3: evolve our membership make sure that they were all requalified.

1010
00:47:21,796 --> 00:47:24,236
Speaker 3: So we requalified. Ninety nine percent of all of our

1011
00:47:24,236 --> 00:47:27,476
Speaker 3: members have been requalified, and I think the last percentage

1012
00:47:27,476 --> 00:47:29,516
Speaker 3: has probably done now as well, which means you have

1013
00:47:29,596 --> 00:47:31,636
Speaker 3: to be relevant, you have to have music in the

1014
00:47:31,716 --> 00:47:33,356
Speaker 3: last five years, you have to have the right amount

1015
00:47:33,396 --> 00:47:36,276
Speaker 3: of credits, and your application has to be re reviewed.

1016
00:47:36,436 --> 00:47:38,836
Speaker 3: So all of our members got that. And then what

1017
00:47:38,876 --> 00:47:41,556
Speaker 3: we also changed is you can't just graze across the

1018
00:47:41,596 --> 00:47:43,596
Speaker 3: ballot and see who you like. Oh I know that person,

1019
00:47:43,676 --> 00:47:45,596
Speaker 3: I'm going to vote for them, because that's not what.

1020
00:47:45,516 --> 00:47:45,996
Speaker 2: This is about.

1021
00:47:46,036 --> 00:47:49,276
Speaker 3: It's about do you know the music, listen to the music,

1022
00:47:49,836 --> 00:47:52,676
Speaker 3: and again subjectively, try and decide which one do you

1023
00:47:52,716 --> 00:47:54,956
Speaker 3: think is the best for the year. So we changed

1024
00:47:54,996 --> 00:47:57,236
Speaker 3: the membership, we changed the way we voted, and not

1025
00:47:57,316 --> 00:47:59,076
Speaker 3: allowed us to eliminate the noms committees.

1026
00:47:59,476 --> 00:48:01,036
Speaker 1: And do you feel like it's gotten to a place

1027
00:48:01,036 --> 00:48:03,756
Speaker 1: where's more the results are more pure now, or the

1028
00:48:03,796 --> 00:48:06,716
Speaker 1: winners or the like. It's where it's kind of really.

1029
00:48:08,836 --> 00:48:10,796
Speaker 3: I don't know if pure is the right word, And

1030
00:48:10,916 --> 00:48:12,876
Speaker 3: you and the listeners could probably tell me if you

1031
00:48:12,876 --> 00:48:13,796
Speaker 3: think we've gotten better.

1032
00:48:13,876 --> 00:48:14,556
Speaker 2: I think we've.

1033
00:48:14,396 --> 00:48:20,116
Speaker 3: Had more consistency and probably more realistic outcomes based around

1034
00:48:20,916 --> 00:48:24,236
Speaker 3: what's going on in the industry today, less like at

1035
00:48:24,276 --> 00:48:26,516
Speaker 3: a left field shock surprise, like how in the heck

1036
00:48:26,596 --> 00:48:29,396
Speaker 3: did that person even get nominated or let alone win,

1037
00:48:29,476 --> 00:48:32,476
Speaker 3: there's less of those. But also, you know, some of

1038
00:48:32,556 --> 00:48:35,156
Speaker 3: what's cool about the Grammys is a discovery and you

1039
00:48:35,196 --> 00:48:37,916
Speaker 3: get to see something that maybe you weren't aware of,

1040
00:48:37,996 --> 00:48:40,036
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, there's a light shine on

1041
00:48:40,076 --> 00:48:42,756
Speaker 3: something new and you're like, oh, that's really cool. I

1042
00:48:42,796 --> 00:48:46,876
Speaker 3: love that. But I do think because of the membership's

1043
00:48:46,916 --> 00:48:48,796
Speaker 3: evolution and because of some of the rules that are

1044
00:48:48,836 --> 00:48:51,796
Speaker 3: in place, we are doing better. I want to continue

1045
00:48:51,836 --> 00:48:54,916
Speaker 3: to improve, and we're always looking at our membership, and

1046
00:48:55,036 --> 00:48:57,356
Speaker 3: the membership has to change, by the way, when new

1047
00:48:57,396 --> 00:48:59,756
Speaker 3: genres come in, we have to make sure we have

1048
00:48:59,836 --> 00:49:02,356
Speaker 3: the voters that correspond to those genres so they can

1049
00:49:02,396 --> 00:49:03,516
Speaker 3: evaluate it accurately.

1050
00:49:03,596 --> 00:49:04,276
Speaker 2: Because if we have.

1051
00:49:04,276 --> 00:49:05,516
Speaker 3: All one type of voter and then all of a

1052
00:49:05,516 --> 00:49:07,796
Speaker 3: sudden this type of music comes in, we're slipping back

1053
00:49:07,796 --> 00:49:10,116
Speaker 3: into how we used to be, where people didn't have

1054
00:49:10,916 --> 00:49:14,156
Speaker 3: the ears for that music. So we'll continue to watch

1055
00:49:14,236 --> 00:49:15,396
Speaker 3: that and try and evolve.

1056
00:49:15,476 --> 00:49:17,196
Speaker 1: In certainly the last decade or so, I mean just

1057
00:49:17,196 --> 00:49:21,676
Speaker 1: with so much, so much with sort of these regional

1058
00:49:21,756 --> 00:49:26,236
Speaker 1: world scenes, yeah, becoming you know, K pop or afro

1059
00:49:26,356 --> 00:49:27,236
Speaker 1: beats or eat psych.

1060
00:49:27,356 --> 00:49:30,556
Speaker 3: Yeah, we just introduced the Asian Pop Performance category and

1061
00:49:30,596 --> 00:49:33,116
Speaker 3: I think three years ago we did African performance category.

1062
00:49:33,236 --> 00:49:35,236
Speaker 3: So if you're going to have those categories, you really

1063
00:49:35,236 --> 00:49:37,036
Speaker 3: got to make sure you have the right voters, Otherwise

1064
00:49:37,516 --> 00:49:39,716
Speaker 3: you're doing them a disservice. And the reason we put

1065
00:49:39,716 --> 00:49:41,556
Speaker 3: those categories in is so that we can honor the

1066
00:49:41,596 --> 00:49:43,756
Speaker 3: music and so we can show respect to that music

1067
00:49:43,796 --> 00:49:45,596
Speaker 3: because it's happening, it's poppin, and we want to make

1068
00:49:45,596 --> 00:49:47,716
Speaker 3: sure it's part of what we're doing. But if we

1069
00:49:47,796 --> 00:49:50,556
Speaker 3: don't have the right outcomes and those genres, because we

1070
00:49:50,556 --> 00:49:53,116
Speaker 3: don't have the right membership, since we're messing.

1071
00:49:52,876 --> 00:49:56,436
Speaker 1: Up amazing over the next decade or so. What are

1072
00:49:56,476 --> 00:49:59,036
Speaker 1: you excited about in music and what are you most

1073
00:49:59,316 --> 00:50:00,036
Speaker 1: concerned about.

1074
00:50:00,556 --> 00:50:04,956
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about people having access to creating music

1075
00:50:05,036 --> 00:50:08,116
Speaker 3: and listening to music and discovery music. There's more music

1076
00:50:08,116 --> 00:50:10,316
Speaker 3: being listened to now than ever. I think that's a

1077
00:50:10,356 --> 00:50:13,156
Speaker 3: cool stat because I love music and I make music.

1078
00:50:13,156 --> 00:50:16,196
Speaker 3: I still am in the studio making music. So the

1079
00:50:16,196 --> 00:50:18,996
Speaker 3: fact that more people are enjoying it, that it's affecting

1080
00:50:18,996 --> 00:50:24,356
Speaker 3: more people, that's exciting. The idea that my niece calls

1081
00:50:24,396 --> 00:50:26,796
Speaker 3: me from Dallas and says, Uncle Harvey, I just made

1082
00:50:26,796 --> 00:50:28,676
Speaker 3: a song check it out and she sends it to me,

1083
00:50:28,716 --> 00:50:31,756
Speaker 3: and we can debate around whether or not you think

1084
00:50:31,796 --> 00:50:36,556
Speaker 3: that's healthy or okay, or should even be called music making,

1085
00:50:36,956 --> 00:50:39,956
Speaker 3: But the fact that she's coming into the world of

1086
00:50:40,076 --> 00:50:44,756
Speaker 3: creating and expressing herself through music, I think that's cool. Again,

1087
00:50:44,956 --> 00:50:48,396
Speaker 3: making sure that we take care of the legality and.

1088
00:50:48,396 --> 00:50:50,916
Speaker 1: Are you are you running the same test on your niece.

1089
00:50:51,756 --> 00:50:54,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, make sure you're signing the right things, they're

1090
00:50:54,156 --> 00:50:58,476
Speaker 3: giving credit. So I'm excited about those things. And some

1091
00:50:58,516 --> 00:51:01,636
Speaker 3: of that is also what makes me nervous. Does music

1092
00:51:01,716 --> 00:51:05,036
Speaker 3: become commoditized? Does it become too easy to create? Does

1093
00:51:05,076 --> 00:51:08,836
Speaker 3: it come too easy and disposable? Does it become something

1094
00:51:08,876 --> 00:51:14,436
Speaker 3: that is overlooked and just in the background. And I

1095
00:51:14,476 --> 00:51:16,196
Speaker 3: have faith that that's not going to be the case,

1096
00:51:16,596 --> 00:51:19,276
Speaker 3: because I think music is too powerful and too important

1097
00:51:19,276 --> 00:51:22,876
Speaker 3: and people who make music are, in my mind, the

1098
00:51:22,956 --> 00:51:26,676
Speaker 3: most special and so I worry less about that. But

1099
00:51:26,756 --> 00:51:28,916
Speaker 3: that is something that we all have to think about.

1100
00:51:28,956 --> 00:51:31,476
Speaker 3: And you mentioned the AI slop and what does that

1101
00:51:31,556 --> 00:51:33,516
Speaker 3: mean for listeners and what does that mean for our

1102
00:51:33,516 --> 00:51:36,076
Speaker 3: community of people who make music and have spent the

1103
00:51:36,156 --> 00:51:39,036
Speaker 3: ten thousand or in some other cases the forty thousand

1104
00:51:39,076 --> 00:51:42,036
Speaker 3: hours that it takes to really refine your craft and

1105
00:51:42,076 --> 00:51:44,596
Speaker 3: perfect your craft. And I still think there's huge value

1106
00:51:44,596 --> 00:51:47,556
Speaker 3: in that, and I would hate to see that lost.

1107
00:51:48,556 --> 00:51:51,756
Speaker 3: But we have to acknowledge things are going to change.

1108
00:51:51,756 --> 00:51:55,236
Speaker 3: They always have. Our industry has seen it time and

1109
00:51:55,276 --> 00:51:57,516
Speaker 3: time again. The way the music is made has changed,

1110
00:51:57,556 --> 00:52:00,516
Speaker 3: the way music is consumed has changed. And that is

1111
00:52:00,516 --> 00:52:03,316
Speaker 3: not stagnant and it's not binary. It's not either this

1112
00:52:03,476 --> 00:52:05,116
Speaker 3: or that. It's going to evolve, it's going to flow,

1113
00:52:05,116 --> 00:52:07,156
Speaker 3: it's going to grow, and as long as we can

1114
00:52:07,196 --> 00:52:10,316
Speaker 3: be respectful to the creative process and the people that

1115
00:52:10,356 --> 00:52:15,916
Speaker 3: are making music. I'm looking forward to what comes next

1116
00:52:15,956 --> 00:52:17,796
Speaker 3: and what the new sounds are. What's the new genre

1117
00:52:17,836 --> 00:52:20,876
Speaker 3: of music, what's the new way that we're going to

1118
00:52:20,916 --> 00:52:24,636
Speaker 3: listen to music and celebrate music. There's so many new possibilities.

1119
00:52:25,116 --> 00:52:28,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope you're right, man, I hope you're right.

1120
00:52:28,476 --> 00:52:29,156
Speaker 1: I think you're right.

1121
00:52:29,236 --> 00:52:33,236
Speaker 3: You know you know I'm right because music people are resilient.

1122
00:52:33,596 --> 00:52:35,076
Speaker 3: What do you think music people are going to stop

1123
00:52:35,116 --> 00:52:35,676
Speaker 3: making music?

1124
00:52:35,756 --> 00:52:36,196
Speaker 2: No?

1125
00:52:36,196 --> 00:52:38,716
Speaker 3: No, you know all the great records you've grown up

1126
00:52:38,756 --> 00:52:40,876
Speaker 3: listening to, those are the people. Those people are still

1127
00:52:40,876 --> 00:52:43,796
Speaker 3: out here. Making music, and we are being threatened and

1128
00:52:43,796 --> 00:52:47,876
Speaker 3: we're being challenged as creators, and I believe our people

1129
00:52:47,876 --> 00:52:52,396
Speaker 3: will rise that challenge. And I know throughout history of music.

1130
00:52:52,436 --> 00:52:54,356
Speaker 3: I mean when I came up, as I told you,

1131
00:52:54,356 --> 00:52:56,356
Speaker 3: people said your music's not good enough, it's not going

1132
00:52:56,436 --> 00:52:59,516
Speaker 3: to work. You're not good, got to be better. That

1133
00:52:59,676 --> 00:53:01,996
Speaker 3: is how all music people came up. I think you

1134
00:53:02,036 --> 00:53:03,916
Speaker 3: can talk to pretty much any artists and they've been

1135
00:53:04,436 --> 00:53:06,716
Speaker 3: they've been kicked into the dirt a time or two

1136
00:53:06,756 --> 00:53:09,716
Speaker 3: early in their career, and this is not the dissimilar

1137
00:53:09,716 --> 00:53:13,196
Speaker 3: to that. So I think there's some comparisons that can

1138
00:53:13,236 --> 00:53:15,436
Speaker 3: be made to this. Not saying that everybody should go

1139
00:53:15,516 --> 00:53:17,556
Speaker 3: run out and use AI, please don't. That's not what

1140
00:53:17,556 --> 00:53:19,516
Speaker 3: I'm saying. What I'm saying is there's a disruption in

1141
00:53:19,556 --> 00:53:23,956
Speaker 3: technology that changes how people make what they make, and

1142
00:53:25,156 --> 00:53:27,196
Speaker 3: for us, it's jarring and it's like, oh my god,

1143
00:53:27,236 --> 00:53:32,036
Speaker 3: this is unacceptable. They said that about player pianos. Player

1144
00:53:32,116 --> 00:53:34,076
Speaker 3: pianos came out, Oh, it's going to ruin the industry

1145
00:53:34,076 --> 00:53:35,756
Speaker 3: because piano players aren't going to be able to play well.

1146
00:53:35,756 --> 00:53:38,156
Speaker 3: We still got all the piano players. Said that about

1147
00:53:38,196 --> 00:53:40,996
Speaker 3: synthesizers and samplers. They said that about DJs, they said

1148
00:53:40,996 --> 00:53:44,396
Speaker 3: that about hip hop, they said it about people programming

1149
00:53:44,436 --> 00:53:45,956
Speaker 3: on computers. I sat next to a guy on a

1150
00:53:45,956 --> 00:53:47,556
Speaker 3: plane the other day. He made a whole record on

1151
00:53:47,636 --> 00:53:50,276
Speaker 3: his laptop. Didn't even have a keyboard with black and

1152
00:53:50,276 --> 00:53:53,796
Speaker 3: white keys. He was doing it on his laptop. And

1153
00:53:53,836 --> 00:53:56,676
Speaker 3: so is this the next evolution of how people are

1154
00:53:56,676 --> 00:53:58,636
Speaker 3: going to make music, provided that we can get the

1155
00:53:58,636 --> 00:54:01,716
Speaker 3: guardrails in place, I would say it probably is. And

1156
00:54:01,756 --> 00:54:03,396
Speaker 3: there's going to be people who like to do it

1157
00:54:03,436 --> 00:54:05,916
Speaker 3: the traditional way, there can be people that like to

1158
00:54:05,956 --> 00:54:07,676
Speaker 3: blend them together, and there's going to be some that

1159
00:54:07,836 --> 00:54:09,076
Speaker 3: just are in the new mind.

1160
00:54:09,676 --> 00:54:09,916
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1161
00:54:10,196 --> 00:54:12,036
Speaker 1: Just to move away from AI for a second, I

1162
00:54:12,396 --> 00:54:15,636
Speaker 1: do want to ask, is there anything that Recording Academy

1163
00:54:15,716 --> 00:54:17,556
Speaker 1: is not doing now that you like to see it

1164
00:54:18,316 --> 00:54:19,276
Speaker 1: doing or do better?

1165
00:54:20,876 --> 00:54:25,396
Speaker 3: Well, I'm the person that's very rarely, if ever, satisfied,

1166
00:54:25,436 --> 00:54:27,356
Speaker 3: and I'm always thinking what can we do better and

1167
00:54:27,396 --> 00:54:30,476
Speaker 3: how can we evolve? And at this point in my

1168
00:54:30,556 --> 00:54:32,876
Speaker 3: life and in the career of the Recording Academy, the

1169
00:54:32,956 --> 00:54:36,196
Speaker 3: goal is service, and so I do think that role

1170
00:54:36,276 --> 00:54:38,516
Speaker 3: is going to change over time based on needs of

1171
00:54:38,516 --> 00:54:41,156
Speaker 3: the community. You're seeing a need right now around AI.

1172
00:54:42,356 --> 00:54:44,236
Speaker 3: I know you were saying we're leaving AI, but could

1173
00:54:44,236 --> 00:54:46,076
Speaker 3: stay that. There's going to be other things that happen

1174
00:54:46,196 --> 00:54:49,716
Speaker 3: like that to our people, to our industry. And I

1175
00:54:49,716 --> 00:54:52,916
Speaker 3: don't pretend to think we're like the most powerful.

1176
00:54:52,476 --> 00:54:53,116
Speaker 2: Thing in the world.

1177
00:54:53,196 --> 00:54:55,596
Speaker 3: I mean, there's such a massive business behind us with

1178
00:54:55,676 --> 00:54:58,676
Speaker 3: labels imposing. But the role that we play as the

1179
00:54:58,716 --> 00:55:03,116
Speaker 3: Recording Academy Organization and the Grammy Organization, I do think

1180
00:55:03,356 --> 00:55:05,756
Speaker 3: it's going to be important that we keep our ears

1181
00:55:05,876 --> 00:55:08,556
Speaker 3: open and we're listening to our community. And that's why

1182
00:55:08,676 --> 00:55:10,876
Speaker 3: I'm thanking for our board and for other members that

1183
00:55:10,916 --> 00:55:13,356
Speaker 3: are our elected leadership, because they point us in the

1184
00:55:13,436 --> 00:55:16,036
Speaker 3: right director say, you know, Grammy Organization, you got to

1185
00:55:16,076 --> 00:55:18,716
Speaker 3: pay attention to this. This is happening to us, and

1186
00:55:18,756 --> 00:55:21,276
Speaker 3: that's where we jump into action. And that could be advocacy,

1187
00:55:21,316 --> 00:55:24,036
Speaker 3: that could be as you said, music care is give back, philanthropy,

1188
00:55:24,076 --> 00:55:26,476
Speaker 3: that could be education. But what I'm pleased and proud

1189
00:55:26,516 --> 00:55:29,556
Speaker 3: of is that we are the organization that is going

1190
00:55:29,596 --> 00:55:31,396
Speaker 3: to be paying really close attention and we're going to

1191
00:55:31,436 --> 00:55:34,836
Speaker 3: be listening to the music community to guide us towards

1192
00:55:34,836 --> 00:55:37,156
Speaker 3: the things that we need to pay more attention to cool.

1193
00:55:37,236 --> 00:55:39,596
Speaker 1: Well definitely feels like it's been better the last half

1194
00:55:39,716 --> 00:55:41,516
Speaker 1: of years since you've gotten there, So thank you.

1195
00:55:41,556 --> 00:55:44,636
Speaker 3: More to do, still more to do and more to accomplish.

1196
00:55:44,676 --> 00:55:46,276
Speaker 1: Awesome, man, can't wait to see what happens.

1197
00:55:46,396 --> 00:55:48,396
Speaker 2: Thanks, appreciate you, man. Yeah, good to see you.

1198
00:55:50,876 --> 00:55:52,676
Speaker 1: Thanks for having meson, Junior for coming on and talking

1199
00:55:52,716 --> 00:55:55,796
Speaker 1: about his incredible career and it's time remaking the Grammys.

1200
00:55:56,156 --> 00:55:58,156
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken

1201
00:55:58,236 --> 00:56:01,516
Speaker 1: with the podcast to see all our connections, and be

1202
00:56:01,556 --> 00:56:04,236
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod.

1203
00:56:04,516 --> 00:56:06,796
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with

1204
00:56:06,916 --> 00:56:09,596
Speaker 1: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan mcmill and our

1205
00:56:09,636 --> 00:56:14,076
Speaker 1: engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken Record is production of Pushkin Industries.

1206
00:56:14,276 --> 00:56:16,716
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1207
00:56:16,756 --> 00:56:20,316
Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

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1210
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1211
00:56:29,116 --> 00:56:31,196
Speaker 1: to share, rate and review us on your podcast app.

1212
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Speaker 1: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,