WEBVTT - 6. The Argument 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.000 Hi, I'm the Owaisha. You may know me as the 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:05.840 former host of Visibilia. Well, I'm back with the new 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.560 show called Praxy. It's about the niche emotional questions that 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:12.120 no one in your life can relate to. That's where 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.800 Praxy comes in. I'll connect you to researchers and strangers 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.320 with shared experience and you'll get to ask all your questions. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.000 We're kicking things off with a three part series on 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.479 the emotional and mental health toll of layoffs. Subscribe to 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:36.960 Praxy wherever you get your podcasts. 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:31.600 Because. 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.360 This is episode six of Because the Bus Belongs to Us, 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.280 a podcast where two queer nets get down to business, 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.159 assembling their final bits of evidence in the hope of 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.360 convincing other queer people that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.280 I'm Jesse and I'm Polly, and the show is almost over. 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:54.120 No next episode will be our last. We'll be presenting 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.600 our findings to a panel of queer people. You get 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.480 to decide if we have enough evidence to admit Bruce 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:01.600 Springstea to the Queer Icon Hall of Fame. 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.800 At the very start of this mission, we came up 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:11.280 with four checklist points. 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:14.520 We of course smashed check this. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.759 Point one is Bruce Camp Yes, he is. 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.039 Our second check this point. Underdog status started. 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.320 Well with that escaping, that needing to get out. 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.080 You got to go, and you'll do anything to make 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:28.520 sure you don't have to go back. 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.920 That to me is the essence of an underdog. 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:34.880 Then it ended in a full panic about the entire 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:35.720 purpose of the show. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.399 Sure, a lot of Bruce Brinky's lyrics make us feel seen, 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.720 but can we actually relate to him? Do we even 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.000 want to make a whole podcast series idolizing a rich, white, 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.240 straight cis man whose politics we aren't actually sure of. 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.120 But we pulled it back with checkliss point three good music. 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.960 Bruce is so much more than Bruce, and I love 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.120 thunder Road, not just because Bruce said it, because we 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.040 all get to say it to each other. Now we 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.000 just have one checklist point to go before we can 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:14.240 officially crown Bruce Springsteen with queer icon status. Quite simply, 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.960 is there a vibe? Do other queer people agree that 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:19.040 Bruce is a queer icon? 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:24.160 And we are getting nervous. Next week we'll be presenting 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.960 our evidence to an expert panel of queers, and the 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.200 fate of this very serious scientific investigation rests in their hands. 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.000 Today is our last chance to collate our evidence, gather 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.640 our findings, and prepare our ultimate argument. 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:39.320 So we're looking. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.680 Just like last bits and bobs are here. So in 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.040 classica style, we're back to basics. Sitting in my. 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.720 Bedroom, surrounded by Zeen's books and photos of Bruce. We're 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.600 having one last nerdy evidence gathering session looking through our 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:56.959 Bruce Springsteen ephemera. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.880 In episode four, we put a name to a discomfort 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.160 that we've been feeling throughout the series. There's a difference 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.760 between the radical queer email Bruce Springsteen we've created in 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.480 our heads and projected our own meanings onto, and the 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.640 very real life Bruce Springsteen walking around in New Jersey. 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.400 Yeah, okay, so I'm just going to quote you to 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.240 you reading my favorite line from your graphic memoir Looking 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.400 for Bruce. So you're saying here, part of being a 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.280 Bruce fan is getting to choose which myth or version 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.119 of the truth I believe in. It's a bit like wrestling. 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.960 It's both fake and very real, but it's only fun if. 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:41.000 You really believe. 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:43.720 I guess that's what we're going to put to the 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.000 test next week if we can get other people to 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:48.880 see the fun in believing too. 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.440 Yeah, it's something we touched on in episode two as well, 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:56.400 when we talked about Bruce's esthetics. So there's this image 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.040 of him in this book here. This is called Springsteen 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.280 Album by Album by Ryan White. It was taken for 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.920 Rolling Stone at nineteen eighty four by Aaron Rappaport. He's 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.160 got the denim, he's got double bandana, and I could 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.320 obviously read this image in a very queer way if 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.040 I wanted to, But I'm sure loads of people saw 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.000 this and thought he's just the ultimate American man. 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:26.720 He was a version of white male, patriotic, heterosexual American 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.520 that I disidentified with. 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:32.880 This is a Lana Coombier. 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:38.240 I was born between Born to Run and Darkness on 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:38.880 the Edge of Town. 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.240 For much of Alana's life, they were not a fan 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:43.240 of Bruce Springsteen. 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:49.120 And then what happened was that I listened to Nebraska. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:55.520 Oh Nebraska, the Bruce Springsteen album that Dykes have claimed 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:56.000 as their. 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.599 Own, released in nineteen eighty two, The Legend Girls that 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.120 Bruce recorded the songs on a little four track in 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.320 his bedroom, just him and his guitar and his harmonica. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.800 He originally intended to re record full versions with the 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.599 whole band, but then he decided to release them as 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:13.200 is because it just felt right. 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:16.440 Lots of the songs on the album are pretty dark, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.920 songs about unemployment, death, debt, isolation, and a whole lot 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.200 of hopelessness. 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.920 I heard these songs about people who are having a 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:32.840 much more ambivalent relationship to being American, to living where 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.760 they are, to having this other level of sort of 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:44.080 like procurity around class and while being who are in 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:48.719 their white way, still subject to and worried about policing, 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.080 who are trying to make these decisions about what does 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.960 it mean to try to live in this place, make 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.080 a life. People who are seeking a kind of freedom 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.000 that's different than the freedom that I thought Bruce was 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:03.520 angling toward. 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.200 I always really trust people who say they got into 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.320 Bruce through Nebraska. I think most queers that I know 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.640 in Nebraska, for some reason, is like the album as 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.880 opposed to like the more poppy stuff, even though we 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:16.720 all have pop as well. I don't know what it is. 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.440 Nebraska seems to be this thing that grabs hold of people. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.839 It just feels so intimate to me. I was remembering 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.560 that on my dating profile I had something about being 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.760 a fan of Nebraska era Bruce Springsteen, which now I 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.560 would just change and say I'm a fan of Bruce Springsteen, 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.919 but at the time I felt it was necessary to 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.160 make that little qualification. 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.520 That sends a very specific message. 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.920 At the time, Alana was getting into Nebraska era Bruce Springsteen, 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.160 they were in their late twenties. They were identifying as 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.560 fem but feeling quite complicated about what that marker meant 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.720 to them. 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:01.359 My performance of fem felt really uneven. FEM was really 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:07.200 like sparkly and glittery and polished, and my day to 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.080 day embodiment was not that in any way. 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.440 There was some practical body stuff that was blocking Alana 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.320 from being able to fully lean into their gender expression. 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.520 Trying to wear a dress while also trying to deal 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.000 with an insulin pump, which I wear all the time 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.280 and is just like dangling on this tube. It's hard 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.760 to figure out if you're wearing a strapless dress, which 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.440 I was doing sometimes at that time, like where is 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.560 that pump going to go? In a harness? Of course 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:38.760 that's the best place for it to rest while you're 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.320 going out you know, just kind of dealing with things 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:41.600 like that. 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.680 Elana was also trying to work out what fem meant 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.400 to her as an identity beyond the esthetics. She had 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.840 these legendary fem community leaders to look up to, people 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.200 like Mini Briecee Pratt and Amber Holloba really. 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:05.880 Like badass, engaged, sexy, tenacious fems. So I was really 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.680 appreciating the sort of ways in which people who I 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:14.240 knew as FEM were really embodying care and love and 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.240 community connection and solidarity, and those were all things that 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.240 I was also eager and trying to embody in my life. 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.520 So I had these very big shoes to fill in 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.840 my imagination of what FEM was. That was the part 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.760 where I felt like really inconsistent, not in a like 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.480 horribly deep struggle way, but I think that that was 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.360 part of what I was just puzzling through. 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.600 Probably the most famous song on Nebraska is Atlantic City. 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.800 The guy in it is in a pretty threatening situation, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.960 tied up in gambling in crime, but in the song 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.360 he's speaking to his girlfriend. He tells her, put your 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:54.960 makeup on, get your hair well pretty, and meet me 0:08:55.000 --> 0:09:00.120 tonight in Atlantic City. 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:07.040 This guy knows what has gone into this beauty knows 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.520 that it's a performance, right, Like knows that you're putting 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.480 on this makeup, you're putting on these stockings, you're putting 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:18.199 on this dress, that idea of being this person who 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:22.840 is so desired and appreciated for their effort at looking 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.600 a certain way and embodying a certain kind of femininity. 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:30.520 I had never met a cis man where I felt 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.480 the feeling of that gaze the way Bruce articulates it. 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:37.520 But I have felt that gaze from butch lesbians and 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.719 butch people for sure. And so for me, like when 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:44.040 I hear Bruce singing, like, oh, this is how I feel. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.800 From this little moment of being seen by a line 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.400 in a Springsteen song, things really started to snowble. She 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.959 kept talking to queer fems about Bruce Springsteen. 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.920 He kept coming up across conversations with people who did 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.240 not know each other or even know each other. We well. 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.559 In twenty eleven, Alana published a zine Because the Boss 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.280 Belongs to Us queer femmes on Bruce Springsteen. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:10.640 The zene was very much a project of sort of 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.840 inviting and wanting to connect with people who could help 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.800 me understand how I felt about Bruce, especially because there 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.760 was this fem identification that everyone shared that it wasn't 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:26.000 a straightforward butch identification, and I think that was part 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.480 of the tangle that I was really interested in. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.480 This scene because the boss belongs to us, is our namesake. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.920 It came out way back in twenty eleven, and both 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.320 of us lapped it up. We love it. Alana is 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.000 basically a celebrity to us. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.600 We are so excited to talk to you because we 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:45.880 are both your fan boys. 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:48.400 Wow, you're like one. 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:53.040 Of my origin story queer zine Bruce fans. And that's 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:54.000 the same view Hollly right. 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.320 Absolutely same for me. When I started the Me and 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.200 Bruce zine series, it was a way to try and 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.760 find other queer Bruce fans and try and connect with 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.040 that community. And instantly as soon as I did that, 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.400 everyone's like, well have you read this scene? 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.000 This is my favorite thing about being part of the 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.880 queer Breece Springsteen fandom. As soon as you discover it exists, 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.319 you become part of this kind of underground community. People 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.120 give you zcenes, send you articles, bring into a world 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.760 of people who are as obsessed with Bruce as you Are. 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.080 And alana zine, published over ten years ago, went a 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.000 long way into creating that community. 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.760 It was wonderful when the zine went out. People sent bootlegs, 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.600 people sent CD compilations of just the songs that they 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:40.240 would read as queer. Someone sent me a great flyer 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.720 from their anarchist cafe that had a stencil of Bruce 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:48.959 and said, the only Boss we listened to in Bruce's songs, 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.400 the vision isn't just of you going alone, but that 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.920 there's someone already waiting for you, someone who's ready to 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.679 go with you. That part of the dream that as 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.840 queer as we could go together, that you would not 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.240 be alone, that you would find your people. That's part 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.640 of the dream that I feel like this music embodies 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:05.920 for me. 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.600 Alana decided to bring all of these Queer Sprinstcene fans together. 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.640 She organized a Bruce Sprinkstcene themed cabaret night named. 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.320 Prove It All Night Queer's Do the Boss March of 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:26.000 twenty eleven at Club Cafe in Boston. The acts we 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:30.320 had ranged from people doing readings, to burlesque, to dance, 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.120 to mandolin, go go dancing. 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.880 It feels like a very beautiful coming together of things. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.199 This scene that you made over ten years ago brought 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.480 me in Holly into our understanding that we're part of 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.959 a community. Is part of the reason that we then 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.520 met each other and decided to make this series, which 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.319 we're naming after your scene. And it also really, if 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.520 we're honest with ourselves, the only reason we're making this 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.440 is so that we get to nerd out about Bruce 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.160 with other Quick fans like you. 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:02.120 Yeah. 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:08.040 Yes, it feels like extremely fun and queer that you're 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.280 like a kind of blueprint for us continuing to do 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:13.680 community making in this way. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.600 And I hope that this gives more people an invitation 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.920 to make more and more people like complicating Bruce. It 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.679 would also be great to see some critical work on 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.800 Bruce that's like, why does everyone love Bruce so much? 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.080 What's happening there? That would also be wonderful to see. 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.280 It's funny, isn't It feels like, Yeah, queer Bruce fans 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:35.240 definitely definitely exist. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.120 And the more people you talk to, the more people tell. 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:39.480 You that they like Bruce, will tell you that they've 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:41.400 got a friend who's great who likes Bruce, or like 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:42.359 put you towards. 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:43.720 An article and all of these things. 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.800 Yes, but it doesn't feel like, you know, if you 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.520 were like, tell me a queer icon, right, you wouldn't 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:51.360 say Bruce right? 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:51.520 Like? 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:52.560 No, what is it? 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:52.720 Like? 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.240 I just I think that I'm wondering if part of 0:13:55.280 --> 0:14:01.000 it is just that others have this experience of thinking 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.200 about someone who's I don't know, this American hero in 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.960 a certain way that that's not who we tend to 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:08.280 identify with. 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:10.400 That's the challenge of what we're trying to work out. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:15.520 I guess, yes, is he even okay to say that 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:16.440 he's a queer icon? 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.680 You know, I'm still hung up on this question. Is 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.240 it even okay to say that this cis white, rich, straight, 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:25.800 ma'am is a queer icon? 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:26.240 Yeah? 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:27.080 I should agree. 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.320 I would really like to get to the button of 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.240 it before we have to present it to the panel 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:31.840 next week. 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:33.320 That's after the break. 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:42.880 Hey, this is Jesse and Holly letting you know about 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:44.600 another show you might want to listen to. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.760 Did you know that Radiotopia has a reality dating podcast. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.360 It's called Hang Up, and it's kind of like a 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.440 queer cross between the Bachelor and Lovers Blind. 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.680 And seriously, it's a blast. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.200 I'm a long term listener. I've been there from day one. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.520 Has all of the drama and chaos of a queer 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:06.040 reality show without any of the bullshit of unethical reality tropes. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.080 Hang Ups tagline is no Rings Attached. It's a refreshing 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.760 focus on dating and connection rather than marriage. Here's a 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:15.440 little clip about their current season. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.520 Our star TEAMO is forty one years old and recently divorced. 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.000 I haven't been on a single date in eighteen months, 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:23.280 but now. 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.840 They're looking for someone special and like really hot tacks, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:30.320 really hot public sex. So we set them up with 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.400 six callers to date exclusively over the phone. 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.840 I feel like I could talk to you for hours 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:39.280 on hang Up. 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.400 You don't just get to eavesdrop on dates. There's also 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.080 a series of eliminations, and in the end there's a twist. Well, 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.480 the last caller standing choose the star and go on 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.600 an all expenses paid vacation together, or choose a cash 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:51.320 prize instead. 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:53.600 Guys, it's high drama. 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.840 Also, it's hosted by friend of the pod, Zakia Gibbons. 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.200 You might even hear a little something from her in 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:00.080 an upcoming up. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.280 Said the new season has just finished, so it's perfect 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.840 time for binging. Ten out of ten would recommend to 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.440 a friend or love or given queer community, probably. 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.480 By subscribe to hang up Today on your favorite podcast. 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:25.320 Platform, Jesse Holly, because the bus belongs to us. 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.400 We're still sitting in my bedroom dotting the i's and 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:32.840 crossing the t's before next week when we have to 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.200 convince a panel of queers of Bruce's queer icon credentials. 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.360 I know, in episode four cj Ray told us to 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.120 go on with Upenhearts and find our own joy in 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.280 meeting and Bruce Bringsteen, but I still feel a bit 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.880 like that's one thing in terms of finding joy in 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.120 my personal fandom and another to make a decision on 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:52.760 behalf of the whole queer community. 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:55.840 Yeah, if we're going to convince the panel of queers, 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.520 we need to have a proper justification for putting Bruce 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.640 on this I Compedistal. There's only one person I could 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.840 think of to help us put this question to bed. 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.160 So on the table in front of me, I've got 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.359 my almost entire zine collection. I've also put some little 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.480 stickers to book mark the pages that I want to 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:25.280 talk about. I just have performance anxieties, so I need 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:25.840 to prep. 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:31.040 So my name is. 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:35.920 Otto and I am drag king Georgis Michael also drag 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.720 daddy to Butch Springsteen, our very own producer of this 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:40.920 wonderful podcast. 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.760 I just really wanted to fatherly advice for this one. 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.240 I was saying to my colleague today. I was like, oh, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.160 my drag son is coming later, and then she was like, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.800 can you have a drag son? And It's like, yes, 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:58.240 I physically birth my drag son. In drag you can 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.720 just give birth to children and they I'm out fully formed. 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:06.199 An adult. 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.919 Otto or Georges Michael is an absolute legend of the 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:11.040 London drag scene. 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.240 He is as obsessed with George Michael as. 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.200 We are with Bruce Springsteen, and he thinks loads about 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.800 queer fandom and our relationship. 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:20.520 To the celebrity. 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.879 Of late, we've been feeling less confident about whether we 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.119 are in fact qualified to decide that he's a queer icon. 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:36.080 Yeah, we got pretty cocky to start. 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:35.360 People. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.919 We're more examining we are on feelings. I'm a bit 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.879 uncomfortable about it having a white male millionaire on a pedestal. 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.359 His politics don't necessarily line with ours. How uncomfortable does 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.480 that make us feel should we be elevating or the 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:49.760 queers rather than elevating? 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.480 Will you say, is it wrong to kind of elevate 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.440 this person? But I think that the project of the 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.720 queer icon is also a part of self elevation. You know, 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.679 it's like community. Of course, there's like contributions to like 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.000 his bottom line in terms of record sales and people 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.280 going to his concerts. But the main point of fandom 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.320 is for people to get their nourishment, isn't it. We're 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:14.679 elevating ourselves through it. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:15.400 Do you know what I mean? 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:16.600 We're getting? 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.440 Are you saying that the truths others themselves? 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.640 Maybe this one that's got a bit of a harsh edge. 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.080 This is a little recording I made the first time 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:32.760 Otter came to mind to teach me how to do 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:33.359 drag king. 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.760 Makeup great, you're just looking great. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.600 Me and Otto became friends through drag. We met through 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.960 another friend from the scene when I was first starting 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.920 to develop my but Springsteen character, And now some could say, 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:55.119 thanks to my love of Bruce prestein we're drag family. 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.520 So this is one of Utter's zines that he gave 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.680 me for my birthday last year. It's called careless whisper 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.199 Confessions of a drag king. I'm just gonna read a 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.240 bit from this passage in there about fandom. It's actually 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.240 a Jack Healbuson queer art of failure reference. There is 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.320 a phenomenon I like to call the queer ut of fandom, 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.359 reffing Ugh the queer ut of failure by Jack Halbuston. 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.960 This is the near devotional further with which we revere. 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.199 Our cultural icons as queers. These icons don't need to 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.520 be gay themselves, think Madonna, Elvis, Bruce Springsteen, though they 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.560 sometimes are in the case of George, but either way 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:36.679 they come to mean something particular in the ways in 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.560 which queers fan them, and that is to fan as 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.800 a verb. See the dance floor of a queer party 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.320 when anything by Robin starts to play, or the Internet 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.160 and lesbian meme culture since twenty nineteen. Perhaps it's because 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:50.520 as a community we have historically had to speak in 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.000 codes for safety, so cultural figures become a kind of proxy, 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.760 a way of recognizing ourselves and each other. This also 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.320 plays out in drag, which, like zene memes and dance flaws, 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:03.879 can be a kind of fandom. You see it in 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.160 the recurring characters who get impersonated at drag Nights. I'm 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.240 not the only George Michael, and I've also seen many 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.200 of Freddie Mercury and a Prince, the artists who hold 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:14.840 a special place in our hearts. 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.240 I love this idea of thinking about too fam as 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.080 a verb. It makes it feel more active and places 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:25.320 the agency with the fans. 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:29.280 Some of the references Otto used to Robert on the 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.760 dance Floor lesbian mean culture reminded me of something tams 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.320 In from Unskinny Bop said last episode. Potentially one of 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.120 the reasons our experience of finding other queer Bruce Springsteen 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.439 fans has felt kind of underground is because the queering 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.960 of male celebrities by Dyke's trans masks in their powers 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.960