1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa A. Bramowitz. Each day 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: we bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: for you and your money, whether you're at the grocery 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: store or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: L Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: Now for more details about how technology companies have been 8 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: embroiled in the Russian meddling in the US election, I 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: want to bring in Garrett. Garrett Davincy is our technology 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: reporter in Washington, d C. Today, Uh joining us now. 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: You can follow Garrett on Twitter at Garrett d h 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: Garrett mentioning Twitter. Let's begin their Twitter has identified and 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: removed about accounts that were linked to something called the 14 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: Internet Research Agency. Uh. Maybe just use that as a 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: jumping off point to explain what is it that's being 16 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: investigated and what do we know so far about social 17 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: media and collusion with Russian actors and um, the U 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: S election in November. So yeah, we have three hearings 19 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: over the next two days, one today to tomorrow, and 20 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: in all three of them, representatives of Twitter, Google, and 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: Facebook will face questions from lawmakers. You mentioned Twitter, You 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: mentioned the ira A, the Internet Research Agency, So that 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: is the shadowy organization that has been linked to the 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Kremlin that you know, the public has known about for 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: several years now, you know, dating back to even but 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: all this information that the tech companies have disclosed, they 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: disclosed the whole new raft of information last night Twitter 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: mentioning those accounts. As you mentioned Facebook talking about UM 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: on six million Americans may have seen content that was 30 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: generated or shared by Russian linked actors. Now those numbers 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: are both bigger than what had been disclosed up into 32 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: this point. And we just saw Senator Mark Warner, who 33 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: is the top Democrat Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee 34 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: who will be interviewing these UM companies tomorrow, saying, you know, 35 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: in the scrum to reporters at Congress, just now that 36 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, all this information that's been released kind of 37 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: shows to him that maybe the story is going to 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: keep getting bigger than what we know right now. He said, 39 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, they disclosed a certain amount earlier, and now 40 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: they're disclosing more. He called um you know, the attempts 41 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: by the tech companies that kind of get ahead of 42 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: the story is just incremental changes. So you know, the 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: tech companies are really up for for sort of a 44 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: real grilling from lawmakers today and tomorrow. Garrett. You know, 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: we think about President Trump's administration as being anti regulation 46 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: or at least pro deregulation. What's the appetite right now 47 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: to increase regulation around the tech companies? Relating to uh, 48 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: some of this investigation into Russia's interference in the election. 49 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: I mean you're seeing, you know, the Democrats, in part 50 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: to Killer have a put forward a bill sponsored by 51 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: two Democrats as well as Republican Senator John McCain. So 52 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: there is some bipartisan efforting there to sort of regulate 53 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: the advertising on online um, you know, social networks such 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: as these, and kind of bring the standards that we 55 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: have for radio and television up to the level on 56 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, the online up to the level we have 57 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: for these other mediums. A lot of other senators and 58 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: congress people have sort of expressed, you know, they're not 59 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: so sure. They they want to kind of see how 60 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: these hearings go before they take a stand, and that's 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: really one of the things that that's up for debate here. 62 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: We have some people in Congress saying, you know, this 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: is the bill that we need to regulate advertising on 64 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: these systems, make sure that um users of the social 65 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: networks know when something is political, when it's and who 66 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: it's been funded by and other people. Not so sure yet? 67 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: What's the cost benefit analysis is something like this, Garrett, 68 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: not to the companies, but to the nefarious agents that 69 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: were placing these ads. I mean, it's relative the inexpensive 70 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: to put these ads and this kind of content up online. Correct. 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: It's another question that we will be you know, hearing 72 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people talking about and debating in the 73 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: next couple of days, which is, if you have a 74 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: small amount of money and you know, a consorted, concerted 75 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: group of people trying to use that money to buy 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: advertisements and then sharing it organically as well, how much 77 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: impact can you really have? I mean, the amount of 78 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: money that was involved one hundred thousand dollars that Facebook 79 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: has been able to find. You know, we were not 80 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: sure there could be more but one dollars. I mean, 81 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: this is a drop in the bucket for the amount 82 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: of money that has spent on these platforms every day. 83 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: On Google it was significantly even less than that, So 84 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's hard to know exactly how much of 85 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: an impact these Russian trolls so to speak, actually had 86 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: on the election. Garrett, I'm sure you've read through the testimony, 87 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: because these big tech giants have released pre released some 88 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: of what they're going to say. Can you give us 89 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: a flavor of the approach that they're taking. The approach 90 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: that they're taking is to kind of, you know, try 91 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: to show that they're being transparent and say, you know, 92 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: their Facebook's general counsel, who will be testifying, you know, 93 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: use very strong language. He said it was, you know, 94 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: an affront to democracy that this kind of thing has happened, 95 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: that they're very upset about it, that they really want 96 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: to work with lawmakers to change it. But what they 97 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: also want to do is make sure that, you know, 98 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: the regulations aren't too strict and don't go too far 99 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: for them that may inhibit them to actually do their business. 100 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: You know, one thing that came out this morning, the 101 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: Internet Um lobbying group that represents these these three companies 102 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: and a few other ones, said, you know, we need 103 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: these laws if they are to come forward, to apply generally, 104 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: not to just carve out our three companies because we're 105 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: the biggest names in this fight. Garrett Devinc, thank you 106 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Garrett Devinc is a technology 107 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: reporter for Bloomberg News. He's in Washington, d C. Today 108 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: because that is where the action is at, with Facebook, Twitter, 109 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: and Google all heading to Congress to talk about what 110 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: they're doing, uh to counter false news, fake news, as 111 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: well as UH perhaps uh international agents trying to interfere 112 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: with US elections. Will be following that throughout the day. 113 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: The testimony is in the afternoon, and we will bring 114 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: that live to you on Bloomberg Television. Now, want to 115 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: visit with the Noah Felmanoah is the Felix Frankfurt Professor 116 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: of Law of Harvard University. Is also a Bloomberg of 117 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: You columnist, and he is also the author of a 118 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: new book on James Madison, on the president of the 119 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: Presidency of James Madison. The book is entitled The Three 120 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: Lives of James Madison, Genius, Partisan and President. No thank 121 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: you very much for being with us. Um. You know, 122 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: before we get into James Madison, let's talk about just 123 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: something a little bit more, uh, sort of immediate, and 124 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: this is the indictments that were handed down by Robert 125 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: Mueller on yesterday for Paul Manafort and Mr Gates and 126 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: and just the ongoing investigation. What do you make of this? 127 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: Where do you think this all leads? And and why 128 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: is this is starting with an indictment of Manafort. It's 129 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: started with Manaphort because he is vulnerable if the allegations 130 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: in the indictment are true. He's exposed himself to up 131 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: to eighty years in prison by essentially lobbying for foreign governments, 132 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: not telling anybody about it, keeping the money overseas, not 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: paying taxes on it, and then laundering it to pay 134 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: for things like renovations on his Hampton's house. So he's 135 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: a weak link. And since he was for some period 136 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: of time, for some months, charement of the campaign, it's 137 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: a logical thing from a prosecutor's perspective. You start with 138 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: the weak link. Where it's going. We still don't know 139 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: enough to be certain. It's very clear that the Russians 140 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: were trying to make contacts all over the Trump campaign, 141 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: and the guilty plea of George Papadopoulos offers ample evidence 142 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: of that. U The question is was there collusion back? 143 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: You know, did the Trump campaign do anything going back, 144 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: and it's really much too soon to know that. We 145 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: don't yet have direct evidence that that did happen, um, 146 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: And that's what the investigation is going to turn on. 147 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: If they can find that, it will look like a 148 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: success from Aller, and if not, like a success for 149 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: the president. You know, No, I want to pick up 150 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: on that point because you really highlighted that in your 151 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: column that certainly President Trump seems to view this as 152 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,239 Speaker 1: a who wins and who loses type of UH investigation 153 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: were as arguably Robert Muller views this as trying to 154 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: find out what happened and the truth. And I'm wondering 155 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: how important is it to sort of see it through 156 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: President Trump's lens in in order to figure out whether 157 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: this will be effective? And even if Trump is impeached, 158 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that he will not get 159 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: expelled from office because the Senate won't convict him. You know, 160 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: like anything where there are two perspectives, it's really important 161 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: to see it from both directions. And so from from 162 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: mother's perspective, you know, his career as a public servant 163 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: comes to fruition whether he gets the president or not. 164 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: You know, he is going to try to find out 165 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: what actually happened and provide evidence. And that's how prosecutors 166 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: typically are are brought up to see things. But from 167 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: the president's perspective, and really this is the perspective it's 168 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: most relevant to our polity as a nation. The question 169 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: is does he go down or not? You know, does 170 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: he end up in history as as Nixon, or did 171 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: the end up in history as Bill Clinton bruised and 172 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: battered but nevertheless acquitted by the Senate. And so I 173 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: think it's hard, you know, for an elected official not 174 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: to see things in those terms. No, as far as 175 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: the role of the special prosecutor goes in this, is 176 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: there any possibility that the prosecutor will be wrong in 177 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: going after certain people in the sense that we focus 178 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: on the president, but maybe it had nothing to do 179 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: with decisions made by Donald Trump. You know, prosecutors are 180 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: a human believe it or not, and they make mistakes too. 181 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: In the case of Manaford, assuming that the allegations are 182 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: are true, and there's no reason really to doubt that 183 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: at this stage, the prosecu will will pick up some 184 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: scalps of people who are criminals and have done things 185 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: wrong um and should probably be punished for that, but 186 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: who may not ultimately lead back to the big investigation, 187 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: and that for the prosecut that's the kind of mistake 188 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: that you're talking about. I think it's where you go 189 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: after somebody, you try to flip them and they've done 190 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: nothing to tell and that may be true, and that 191 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: happens to prosecutors um and then you know, the bad 192 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,599 Speaker 1: luck is to the people who committed the crimes in 193 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: the first place and made themselves vulnerable to being charged 194 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: and might otherwise never have been charged. Do you think 195 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: the Attorney General Jeff Sessions is at risk here? I 196 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: haven't heard anything thus far suggesting that he is personally 197 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: at risk, especially because the key meeting in which the 198 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: President apparently pushed Comey was one in which Sessions wasn't present. So, 199 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think Sessions looks bad around this, but 200 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: I don't yet have any indication that he himself is 201 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: directly in the line fire. You know. I just also 202 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: want to follow up in this whole winner versus loser 203 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: kind of way that President Trump seems to be viewing this. 204 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there is another aspect to this. We're gonna 205 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: get elections midterm elections next year, and there is a 206 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: good chance that should this escalate based on the popularity 207 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: rankings of President Trump yesterday, that this could definitely impede 208 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: the Republican's position in Senate, in Congress more broadly. What 209 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: what do you? What do you? What's your take on that? Well, 210 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that in principle, if the President's popularity 211 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: goes down even further, that should have a gravitational pull 212 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: on other Republican candidates. It is, however, really important to 213 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: remember that the first midterm elections in any presidential term 214 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: almost always result in a significant loss of seats for 215 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: the president's party. You know what happened to build Contentent, 216 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: happened to Barack Obama. It's it's quite normal, and so 217 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: there's going to be some pull regardless. Um, the question 218 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: is will that be very disproportionate? And if you look 219 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: at the way the districts are designed, it's not certain 220 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: that Trump's unpopularity will pull down repub into that much 221 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: further in many House races, because many House districts are 222 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: gerrymandered such that they're overwhelmingly Democrats or overwhelmingly Republican, and 223 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: the base may not care. No, just quickly and in 224 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: your book, The Three Lives of James Madison, Genius, Partisan 225 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: and President. Would you say that James Madison is one 226 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: of the first presidents to really understand the power public 227 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: opinion and what was then the media. Yeah. Absolutely, It 228 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: was in um It was in John Adams's presidency that 229 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: he and Jefferson decided they needed to start a newspaper 230 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: of their own, essentially a republican newspaper to go against 231 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: the federalist newspaper that was being run by Alexander Hamilton's 232 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: and they wrote very explicitly about this. In fact, Madison 233 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: wrote a very famous essay called public Opinion where he 234 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: basically said, you know, we didn't think it was going 235 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: to work this way under the Constitution. We thought that, 236 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, everyone would do his own research. But now 237 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: we understand that the media affects the way people think, 238 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: and so if you want to actually ensure that the 239 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: Constitution is followed, it's not enough to rely on the 240 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: government officials. He was thinking of the Adams administration actually 241 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: have to rely on the media to inform the people. 242 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: Sounds fascinating. A new book, The Three Lives of James Madison, Genious, Partisan, 243 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: and President, by Noah Feldman, who just joined us. Felix Frankfurter, 244 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: professor of law at Harvard University, also able recue columnist. 245 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. Just last week, more than voters in Lombardy, 246 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: that's the home to Italy's financial capital Milan, and the 247 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: Veneto region around Venice, they voted yes in a non 248 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: binding referendum to somehow access more autonomy from the state 249 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: of Italy. Here to help us understand exactly what's going 250 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: on is Roberto Maroni. He is the president of the 251 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: region of Lombardy and he is also a former Interior 252 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: Minister of the Italian Republic in the Roberta Lomoni, President, 253 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: thank you very much for being with us. What can 254 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: you describe for people the difference between the referendum that 255 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: was held in Italy about autonomy in these two regions 256 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,599 Speaker 1: and the referendum the balloting that went on in Catalonia. 257 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: It's a very simple. The referendum in Catalonia was something 258 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: against the Spanish constitution. What we did in Lombardi and 259 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: Vnito is something too uh to make the Italian constitutes 260 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: to apply the Italian constitution, in particular reform of the 261 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: constitution which took place sixteen years ago. The reform was 262 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: we the regions can ask for more powers, more competences 263 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: and more money. In these last sixteen years, no regions 264 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: got new competencens, new powers. Why because the Italian government 265 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: was always against giving money and competency. That's why we 266 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: did the referendum. It's a non binding referendum, yes, but 267 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: from a political viewpoint, this gave me power. More than 268 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: three million Lomber people went to vote, and this is 269 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: the difference in any negotiating, tough negotiation with the government. 270 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: President Maroni, can you just take a step back and explain, 271 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: is it a coincidence that we're seeing these independence or 272 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: autonomy movements in the economic capitals of a number of 273 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: European regions, Because the Catalonia region is also the economic 274 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: capital of Spain, much like Lombardy. I don't think it's 275 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: a coincidence. The problem is that Europe is not working. 276 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: The governance of Europe from a political viewpoint, is not working. 277 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: It's a sum of individual member states. Each of them 278 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: is working as individual member states. We have nothing such 279 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: as the US system federal system, and this uh is 280 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: means that many important regions such as Catalonia Lombardi and 281 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: Ventito want Europe to change. I think, I hope that 282 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: what is happening in Europe is hurt by the European Union, 283 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: the European commissioned, the European Parliament, because we need to 284 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: change the governance of Europe from a europe from a 285 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: political viewpoint. This is the signal I think people has 286 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: done with our referendum and also in Catalonia. What would 287 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: you like to see changed? Because I believe that one 288 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: of the points during the referendum was that the two 289 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: regions account for about thirty percent of the economic output 290 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: of Italy, that includes industrial, agricultural services, finance and so on. 291 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: Do you want more of the tax money to day 292 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: in northern Italy rather than go to places in southern 293 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: Italy and Sicily, Yes, exactly. We pay a lot of taxes. Uh. 294 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: If you the difference between what we pay in taxes 295 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: and what we get back from the state from the 296 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: government is a huge amount of taxes is fifty four 297 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: billion euros per year. The difference I want at least 298 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: half of this amount, twenty seven billion euros. So we'll 299 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: let me to lower the level of taxation for companies, 300 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: to increase investments from abroad and to put Lombardy on 301 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: the top of the regions in Europe. I'm trying to understand. 302 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: You were saying Europe is not working. The European Union 303 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: is not working, and so that's why the economic powerhouses 304 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: in Europe are sort of putting their foot down. What 305 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: would you like to see on a European Union level 306 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: that would make it work? What we call the Europe 307 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: of the Regions, not of twenty eight twenty nine eight 308 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: member states. We have ten million people. We would be 309 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: the sixth country in Europe um, but we don't count. 310 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: We as Lombardy region don't have any power to interfere 311 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: with European decisions. That's why we want to Europe to 312 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: move from what is now twenty eight member states into 313 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: the Europe of the Region's taken into account, then Lombardy, 314 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: Catalonia and regions are something special. That's our our vision, 315 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: President Modony, and that that's highly radical. That's basically saying, 316 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: break up Italy, break up Spain. It's not about them, 317 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: it's Lombardy and it's got a lot. Is that you're 318 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: asking for We are asking in uh uh were What 319 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: we want is that Lombardi event of the regions, the 320 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: power the powerful regions in Europe can be taken into 321 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: account more than what is now. We don't have nothing 322 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: against Italy. Of course, our ferendum was inside the nation 323 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: Italian nation. But I think that it will be useful 324 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: or so for Italy and the regions in the South. 325 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: If if Lombardi is more has more money and more 326 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: competencence and power have So it seems to be that 327 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: there's this conflict between the political unity, let's say of 328 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: Italy or even in Spain, with the economic and financial reality, 329 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: which is this is all about money. Right, your rich region, 330 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: you don't want that money to go to regions that 331 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: have less money. Yet I don't want money to go 332 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: to the Italian government because they don't use our money 333 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: the right way. I am willing to give money to 334 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: the regions directly to the regions of the South in 335 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: a bit to be relationship. This is what is useful 336 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: for the South. This is my vision. And now we 337 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: are trying to uh with the government to find a solution, 338 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: a common solution, not against the government, not against Italy, 339 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: but for the help of the original of the South. 340 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: Robert to Maroni thank you so much for being with us. 341 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: President of the Region of Lombardy, which is his presidency 342 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: is based in Milan in Italy, but he's joining us 343 00:20:45,440 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: in our Bloomberg eleven three studios in New York focused 344 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: on fixed income is brought to by PIMCO for investors 345 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: who demand more than the markets deliver. All investments contain 346 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 1: risk and may lose value. Consult your investment professional before investing, 347 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: well before we do anything where we go on, check 348 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: in with Simon Ballard. Here's our global credit strategist for 349 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News based in London. Simon, always a pleasure. I'm 350 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: going to give you a choice here. This is, you know, 351 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: the trifecta. You get to talk either about inflation or 352 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: deflation in the Eurozone, Italy and what the effects of 353 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: quantitative easing have had on the economy or not. And 354 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: the alternative for Germany, the Nationalist party that won seats 355 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: in the Bundestag calling for a lawsuit to question quantitative 356 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: eything from the ECB. Which one of those, uh, do 357 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: you want to kick off? Whichever one we pick, we're 358 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: all gonna We're gonna come back to inflation. I think, indeed, 359 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: go for it the all the lack of inflation, and 360 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: the and and the fact that the you know, the 361 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: e c B. Here we are four years into into 362 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: quantitative easing and they're still trying to chase that two 363 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: percent close to target that that they're wanting. So um, 364 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: you know, be it bit directly in Germany, Beard in Italy. 365 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: You know, the lack of inflation is what's keeping monetary 366 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: policy accommodative um at these sort of levels, which is 367 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: continuing to fuel equities higher and risk assets generally sort 368 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: of keeping the keeping the flames going. Simon, when you 369 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: talk to band fund managers, are they basically asleep? Are 370 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: they basically I don't care, just put it on an 371 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: autopilot by everything. I don't care. There's nothing that could 372 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: shake this until they see a catalyst, until they feel 373 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: there's a catalyst for change. Then yes, to a certain extent, 374 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: there is that, although you do sense that they're becoming 375 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: a little bit more how should I put it, a 376 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: little bit more discerning in their approach to risk. And 377 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: we've seen you know, a couple of high yield deals recently, 378 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: sub investment grade deals having a little bit more of 379 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: investor push back. There was a deal from from Shop Direct. 380 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: Last week, um It had an fr entranch. Investors came 381 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: back said the risks, the covenants associated with the name 382 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: were a little bit too much for them to stomach, 383 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: so they pulled back and they cut the fr entranch 384 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: end floating floating rate notes, right, I apologize as a 385 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: floating rate notes. So they went with a fixed rate 386 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: coupon trance. The yield on that was had had to 387 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: be pushed back from seven to seven and three quarter 388 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: percent may not seem a huge amount, but in the 389 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: context of a have a multi hundred billion dollar hundred 390 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: hundred billion pounds transaction, it is. It just shows that 391 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: investors have become a little bit more concerned about the 392 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: underlying credit fundamental So they're not just chasing yield in 393 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: this environment. They are looking at the you know, the 394 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 1: the risk reward that they potentially will be left holding 395 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: if and when inflation starts pick up, if and when 396 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: yields start to to to rise more significantly. Simon, is 397 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: there any clear understanding as to why it would cost 398 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: twice as much to borrow money from the UH from 399 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: the markets in France and it does in Germany? Looking 400 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: at ten year yields. I mean basically there you're just 401 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: going to look at the fundamental risks. And while France 402 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: has improved significantly or did improve significantly with Mr Macron 403 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: being voted into the into the into the Lias Palace, 404 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of question marks have started to 405 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 1: come in his the Macron rally. Just as we had 406 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: the Trump rally that faded, the Macron rally has faded 407 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: to a certain extent. So you've got a greater degree 408 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: of social security costs and and basically weaker economic growth 409 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 1: within the within the thing. But does that really affect 410 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: people's opinion when it comes to the ability of the 411 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: French government to repay its debts. I mean they're going 412 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: to repay them in Euros, as is Germany, as is Italy, 413 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: Spain and so on. Doesn't someone say, gee, this just 414 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense for so long that Spain, you know, 415 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: the tenure at one four seven, the US is at 416 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: two three seven, and we don't have anybody yet that's 417 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: trying to secede. No, absolutely, and to a certain extent, 418 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: if you look at your the level of absolute European 419 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: yields versus the U s, you'd argue that from a 420 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: fundamental perspective, you want to buy in the US all 421 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: day long because of the you know, the improving story 422 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: um and and the higher yields there in the US. 423 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, European investors are sort 424 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: of obliged to hold European or euro denominated assets UM. 425 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: And the longer that the ECB continues to sort of 426 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: pump prime the economy with quantity divis ng UM, you know, 427 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: the lower those or certainly those low level of yields 428 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: will will persist. Simon. We did get results out of 429 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: BNP Pariba today that showed declines in their debt trading revenues. 430 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: This kind of follows what we've been seeing. Uh and 431 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: you are just shot a proprietary trading group in London. Um, 432 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: there has been a market deterioration in volumes a relative 433 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: to the same period last year. How does this play 434 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: into the calculus at all? Well, again, you know what 435 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: we've seen here is a reiteration across the banking section 436 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: and across many industries. Should we say of the challenging 437 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: market conditions that the traders and investors face um and 438 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: I think you know the numbers that we had from 439 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: BNP while equities we were fairly buoyant. On the fixed 440 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: income side, you know, margins continue to be to be pressed. 441 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: And until we start to see the CB getting into 442 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: sort of rate tightening, into into interest rate raising mode um, 443 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: then margins in the financial sector we're going to remain 444 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: going to squeezed. I'm just wondering on a broader market perspective, 445 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: the fact that volumes have been coming down, that people 446 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: haven't had conviction, does that matter? Are people caring about 447 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: bond market liquidity anymore? People don't don't care about bond 448 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: market liquidity at the moment. They're quite happy to just hold, 449 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: but they will do when the market reverses and they're 450 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: trying to look for a bid. Well that makes that 451 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Any comments about the Alternative for Germany 452 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: Party and their call for a lawsuit questioning ANCLA Merkel's 453 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: reliance on the ECB, Yeah, you know again, I guess 454 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, the the a f D and generally, you know, 455 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: the populist rising that we've seen across Europe, the protectionist 456 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: type of rhetoric that we've seen coming into politics over 457 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: the course of I guess the last couple of years 458 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: now um. It's really just helped take the headlines away 459 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: from from Spain and Catalonia um as Pogumo ends up 460 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: in in Belgium. But again I think it just underscores 461 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: the the the the problems of a cross the Eurozone 462 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: um at the moment um in terms of each individual 463 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: nation wanting to ensure that it has its own economic 464 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: growth and solid foundations for future, for future improvements. Simon Ballard, 465 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Simon Ballard is 466 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: a global credit strategist for Bloomberg. Coming to us from London. 467 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg P and L podcast. 468 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 469 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm pim Fox. I'm 470 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: on Twitter at pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abramo. 471 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: It's one before the podcast. You can always catch us 472 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: worldwide on Bloomberg Radio.