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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseol from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Workers at a Whole Foods market in Pennsylvania voted to

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Speaker 2: unionize this week, the first win for labor at the

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Speaker 2: Amazon owned grocery store chain. Amazon has fiercely resisted union

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Speaker 2: organizing efforts by its workers and is still waging a

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Speaker 2: court battle against the first union election at a Staten

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Speaker 2: Island warehouse three years ago, even challenging the structure of

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Speaker 2: the National Labor Relations Board at a federal appeals court.

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Speaker 2: Joining me is an expert in labor and employment law,

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Speaker 2: Kate Andreas, a professor at Columbia Law School. Kate tell

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Speaker 2: us about this first union win at Whole Foods, at.

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Speaker 3: Least within the United States. It's the first to organize,

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Speaker 3: and Amazon has been a notoriously anti union company. It

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Speaker 3: bought the union, as you know, very aggressively in its warehouses,

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Speaker 3: where one group of workers has successfully or But these

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Speaker 3: workers at Whole Foods also work for Amazon or in

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Speaker 3: the Amazon's overall corporate family, and they decided to organize

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Speaker 3: the union. They withstood a very intense anti union campaign

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Speaker 3: by the employer, but a majority of them continued stuck together.

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Speaker 3: And did vote in an NLRB election to unionize.

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Speaker 2: It was closed one hundred and thirty workers to one hundred.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about this campaign of intimidation, and the union

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Speaker 2: local also filed unfair labored practice charges against Amazon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that kind of close vote count is

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Speaker 3: not at all uncommon due to anti union campaigns that

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Speaker 3: employers run. So frequently. When workers file for an election,

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Speaker 3: they have a very strong majority, and then what happens

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Speaker 3: is that employers engage in a lot of anti union campaigning,

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Speaker 3: some of which is illegal, some of which is legal,

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Speaker 3: but that is aimed to course workers into not exercising

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Speaker 3: their right to unionize, ranging from things like holding mandatory

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Speaker 3: meetings where they tell workers not to vote for the union,

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Speaker 3: or they suggest that if they do, they're going to

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Speaker 3: lose benefits. Sometimes they threaten individual workers or even fire

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Speaker 3: individual workers, and all of those activities are designed to

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Speaker 3: try to commence workers not to organize unions. The allegation

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Speaker 3: is that Holso did commit various unfair labor practices during

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Speaker 3: this campaign, but it doesn't have to be adjudicated by

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Speaker 3: the board.

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Speaker 2: The company has five days to challenge the election before

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Speaker 2: the results are certified and then it has to bargain

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Speaker 2: with the union for a contract covering the stores unionized workers.

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Speaker 2: But nearly three years ago, and we talked about this,

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Speaker 2: Amazon warehouse workers in Staten Island voted to be represented

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Speaker 2: by a union. Now they've since affiliated with the Teamsters,

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Speaker 2: but Amazon has refused to come to the bargaining table

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Speaker 2: in three years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so, the problem is that the law

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Speaker 3: obligates employers to bargain in good faith, but it doesn't

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Speaker 3: have a lot of enforcement mechanism. For example, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: have a mechanism for the government for the NRB to

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Speaker 3: impose a settlement if the employer refuses to bargain in

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Speaker 3: good faith. So employers frequently exploit the weaknesses and the

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Speaker 3: laws to resist bargaining, especially for a first contract. So

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Speaker 3: for example, it can file challenges and objections, even frivolous objections,

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Speaker 3: just to delay. But even if they just agree to bargain,

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Speaker 3: often they engage in surface bargaining. So just going through

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Speaker 3: the motions of bargaining and again doing so is elegal.

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Speaker 3: It's an unfair labor practice, but the remedies essentially are insufficient.

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Speaker 3: Usually what happens is the boards orders them to bargain.

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Speaker 3: So it really does highlight why we need labor law

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Speaker 3: or form in this country. That said, it doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: workers never win first contract. And when they're sufficiently united

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Speaker 3: and when they successfully organize other stores within the chain,

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Speaker 3: that often creates enough economic pressure on the company to bargain.

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Speaker 3: And so what we've seen happen, for example, in Starbucks,

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Speaker 3: they also haven't reached a first contract, but they've made

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Speaker 3: a lot more progress and the company does appear to

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Speaker 3: be bargaining because so many Starbucks shops across the country

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Speaker 3: have organized. The more workers organize, the more power they

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Speaker 3: have within a particular firm, the more likely it is

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Speaker 3: they are able to win a first contract, even if

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Speaker 3: the employer violates the law. The other complication they sing

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Speaker 3: workers today, as weak as the law is, the Biden

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Speaker 3: Board was very aggressive in trying to enforce the law,

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Speaker 3: in going to court where necessary to get injunctions and

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Speaker 3: issuing decisions against employers who violate the law. And the

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Speaker 3: future of the board is very much in question right

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Speaker 3: now under the Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: The Amazon workers in Staten Island are affiliated now with

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Speaker 2: the Teamsters, a really powerful union. If the Teamsters can't

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Speaker 2: get Amazon to the bargaining table. Then I wonder what

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Speaker 2: can well.

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Speaker 3: I think that the workers now have a a lot

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Speaker 3: more resources behind them because they have affiliated with the Teamsters.

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Speaker 3: I also think that the Teamsters are working with other

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Speaker 3: Amazon workers across the country to try to organize that

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Speaker 3: other facilities, and that really can help build enough power

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Speaker 3: to force Amazon into bargaining. So I think that really

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Speaker 3: has to be a long term strategy of organizing more

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Speaker 3: workers within the company. I know that many workers are interested,

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Speaker 3: or as I understand, at least some of the new

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Speaker 3: workers within the company are interested, and so I think

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Speaker 3: long term, if more warehouses organized, then that can create

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Speaker 3: enough pressure on the company to bargain in good face.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, I'll continue

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Speaker 2: this conversation with Columbia Law School professor Kate Andreas. Amazon

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Speaker 2: has challenged the election outcome in court. They accuse the

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Speaker 2: NLRBF tampering in the union election, and Amazon, along with

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk's space x, is challenging the constitutionality of the

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Speaker 2: National Labor Relations Board at the Fifth Circuit, which is

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Speaker 2: the most conservative circuit in the country. Tell us about

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Speaker 2: their arguments at the Fifth Circuit about the constitutionality of

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Speaker 2: the NLRB.

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Speaker 3: So Amazon is making a number of arguments about why

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Speaker 3: the board is unconstitutional, including arguing that the structure of

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Speaker 3: the NRB is unconstitutional. And this is part of a

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Speaker 3: number of cases that various employers have brought challenging the

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Speaker 3: constitutionality of the board. Among other arguments, they contend that

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Speaker 3: the fact that the president cannot fire board members or

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Speaker 3: fire administrative law judges whenever he wants, that that is unconstitutional.

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Speaker 3: And they also argue that the structure of the board,

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Speaker 3: because the board exercises various powers that are not purely

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Speaker 3: executive in nature, that that violates principles of separation of powers.

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Speaker 3: And it means that Congress has delegated too much power

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Speaker 3: to the executive branch. So they're making some fairly fundamental

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Speaker 3: arguments challenging the structure of the board, which would also

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Speaker 3: drawn to question many other administrative agencies. And these are

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Speaker 3: arguments that the Supreme Court rejected nearly one hundred years ago.

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Speaker 3: First in a case involving the Federal Trade Commission, the

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Speaker 3: Court held that it is permissible for Congress to put

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Speaker 3: restrictions on when the president can fire board members when

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Speaker 3: there's a multi member board, so it is permissible for

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Speaker 3: Congress to design an agency so that has some measure

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Speaker 3: of independence from the president to create multi member boards

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Speaker 3: where the board members serve for terms and can only

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Speaker 3: be removed for cause. The Supreme Court is already format

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Speaker 3: and a case calls Humphrey's Executor way back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: thirty five, and then in nineteen thirty seven, the Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court upheld the constitutionality of the NLRA. So the companies,

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Speaker 3: including Amazon, are challenging these nearly one hundred years of

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Speaker 3: precedent that holds that the board is constitutional and that

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Speaker 3: the MLRA is constitutional. So they're really trying to upend

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Speaker 3: our system of law that's been around for one hundred

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Speaker 3: years and also attack the whole administrative state in doing so.

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Speaker 2: So that brings me to the question that I've been

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Speaker 2: asking a lot lately. Those decisions were well before the

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Speaker 2: Roberts Court began to curb agency powers. So might this

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Speaker 2: court look at the issue differently?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a real risk. So, as you said,

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Speaker 3: the Roberts Court has issued a series of opinions that

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Speaker 3: weakens the administrative agencies, and these cases which Amazon is pursuing,

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Speaker 3: but also which President Trump is peeing up because he

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Speaker 3: just fired one of the board members. These cases key

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Speaker 3: up for the Supreme Court a question about whether or

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Speaker 3: not it should overrule this very long standing precedent. And

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Speaker 3: there certainly is some reason to fear that this court

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Speaker 3: that has been so hostile to administrative agencies and also

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Speaker 3: so hot out so workers in various labor cases, might

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Speaker 3: find merit in these really unprecedented legal arguments.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk for minute about that he removed a democratic

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Speaker 2: member of the NLRB. Also he removed two Democratic EEOC commissioners.

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Speaker 2: Those actions are unprecedented. But as far as the NLRB goes,

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Speaker 2: is it unlawful?

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Speaker 3: I believe it is unlawful under the existing law because

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Speaker 3: the statute allows the president to fire board members upon

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Speaker 3: notice and hearing for neglect of duty or mal seasons

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Speaker 3: in office, but for no other cause, And as far

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Speaker 3: as I know, there's been no allegation that the board

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Speaker 3: member who is removed engaged in any neglect of duty

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Speaker 3: or malfeasance in office. So it is, on its face

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Speaker 3: an action that is illegal that contradicts the statute.

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Speaker 2: Kate, does the same thing apply to the firings of

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Speaker 2: the EOC commissioners or is that a different.

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Speaker 3: Law, So it's a different statute, but it also has

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Speaker 3: four cause protection, so those commissioners also can only be

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Speaker 3: removed for cause. And my understanding again is that there's

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Speaker 3: no allegation that they did anything that was merit termination

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Speaker 3: for cause.

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Speaker 2: I assume that the commissioners are going to file lawsuits

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Speaker 2: over these firings, and anyone Trump appoints to fill those

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Speaker 2: slots would be in a tenuous position. How long could

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Speaker 2: litigation like this take.

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Speaker 3: Well, in the ordinary case, it could take quite a

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Speaker 3: while for a case to go all the way up

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Speaker 3: through the court system. There's also the possibility that the

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Speaker 3: parties would seek expedited relief. That it's a little hard

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Speaker 3: to predict how long it will take. Similar issues, though,

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Speaker 3: are also percolating in those other cases that we discussed,

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Speaker 3: where the employers have made the argument that these removal protections,

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Speaker 3: the statutory provisions that prevent the president from firing board

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Speaker 3: members are illegal. So the case could get up to

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court either through challenge made by the EOC

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Speaker 3: commissioners or Commissioner willcoxim on the board, or through one

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Speaker 3: of these other cases that's currently in the Fifth Circuit to.

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Speaker 2: The Supreme Court's decisions having to do with appointments and

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Speaker 2: protections for removal have any bearing here.

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Speaker 3: There are a few cases from the Court in recent

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Speaker 3: years that have drawn into question removal protections of other

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Speaker 3: kinds of officers with an administrative agencies. So there was

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Speaker 3: a case in which the Court held that protections against

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Speaker 3: removal for a single head agency that those are unconstitutional.

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Speaker 3: And there was another case where the Court held that

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Speaker 3: dual for cause protection, so that there's essentially two layers

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Speaker 3: of protection, that that is impermissible.

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Speaker 1: But the Court.

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Speaker 3: Hasn't extended those rulings to either these multi member boards

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Speaker 3: where the decision was reached in nineteen thirty five that

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Speaker 3: that is okay to protect them from firing, nor has

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Speaker 3: it been extended the idea that the president has the

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Speaker 3: right to fire whomever he wants whenever he wants to

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Speaker 3: administrative law judges. There's good policy reasons for not allowing

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Speaker 3: the president to fire administrative law judges or members of

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Speaker 3: these independent agencies board members or commissioners. So with the judges,

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Speaker 3: in order to have a system of rule of law,

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Speaker 3: we want judges to have a measure of independence to

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Speaker 3: be doing their work based on merit and not out

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Speaker 3: of fear that if they issue a decision with which

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Speaker 3: the president disagrees that they'll lose their job. It's the

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Speaker 3: same basic idea for why we have life tenure for

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Speaker 3: federal judges. We want a system of independence judging to

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Speaker 3: uphold the rule of law, and that's why Congress designed

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Speaker 3: the system in that way. The same thing with these

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Speaker 3: multi member agencies. Congress designed them in order that they

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Speaker 3: would have a certain measure of independence from the president. Now,

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Speaker 3: they still ultimately largely follow the president's policy used because

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Speaker 3: when the president wins, he or she ends up appointing

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Speaker 3: the majority of the members. So we do see the

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Speaker 3: board's policies splitting quite a bit when there's a administration.

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Speaker 3: But they don't have to be worried about losing their jobs,

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Speaker 3: you know, unless they violate the law or in some

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Speaker 3: other way. It deserves to be fired for cause.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, we're going from a president Biden who

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Speaker 2: walked the picket lines in Detroit to a president that

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Speaker 2: is opposed to unions. Besides, you know what you've talked about,

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Speaker 2: are there any other implications of having a president like

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Speaker 2: this in the White House.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the President has made really clear that he's

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Speaker 3: opposed to unions, he's opposed to workers having the right

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Speaker 3: to strike, he's opposed to workers unionizing. What we saw

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Speaker 3: during the last Trump administration was that he ticked officials

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Speaker 3: to lead agencies who took a very anti worker position

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Speaker 3: on a range of issues, from overtime pay to right

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Speaker 3: to organize, to who counts as an employee and therefore

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Speaker 3: gets rights under the Statute, a whole host of issues.

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Speaker 3: Trump has in the past at least picked officials to

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Speaker 3: leave the agency who's taken a very anti worker position.

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Speaker 3: My guess is more likely to see that happen again.

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Speaker 3: In addition, I think we also will see a lot

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Speaker 3: of anti worker activity from this administration with respect to

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Speaker 3: the federal workforce, as we already have.

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Speaker 2: We certainly have seen a lot of that and several

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Speaker 2: lawsuits filed already. Thanks so much, Kate. That's Professor Kate

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Speaker 2: Andreas of Columbia Law School. Eric Adams is the first

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Speaker 2: New York City mayor in modern history to be indicted

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Speaker 2: while in office, facing federal charges of bribery, fraud, conspiracy,

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Speaker 2: and soliciting illegal campaign contributions. Adams has pleaded not guilty

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Speaker 2: and refused to step down. He's also been making overtures

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Speaker 2: to President Donald Trump, attending his inauguration, and even traveling

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Speaker 2: to mar A Lago in Florida just before the inauguration

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Speaker 2: to meet with the President elect. Adams has said legal

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Speaker 2: case was never discussed.

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Speaker 4: He went in a.

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Speaker 5: Small conversation as he is getting ready to move into

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Speaker 5: the presidency.

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Speaker 4: I enjoyed a conversation.

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Speaker 6: We talked about the issue of the City of New yorkery.

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Speaker 2: Now, as first reported by The New York Times, Justice

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Speaker 2: Department officials have discussed dropping the corruption chargers against Adams

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Speaker 2: with prosecutors in the Southern District of New York who

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Speaker 2: are handling the case. Joining me is Dave Ahrenberg. Former

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Speaker 2: Palm Beach County State Attorney. Eric Adams is scheduled to

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Speaker 2: go to trial in April. To these Justice Department discussions

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Speaker 2: about dropping the case against him at this point strike

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Speaker 2: you as unusual, fishy or par for the course.

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Speaker 1: Well, June, We've always known that Donald Trump was transactional

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Speaker 1: and he liked people who like him, and Eric Adams

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Speaker 1: went to mar A Lago at the last minute when

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Speaker 1: he got the invitation, and he also went to the

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Speaker 1: inauguration at the last minute when he got the invitation.

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Speaker 1: He went down there to pay homage, to pay tribute

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Speaker 1: to the leader, the guy who could pardon him, and

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Speaker 1: it looks like it's paying dividends. Eric Adams is saying

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Speaker 1: that those visits were to represent the people in New York,

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Speaker 1: but they weren't on his official calendar, and he didn't

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Speaker 1: want too many people to know what he was doing

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Speaker 1: and when he was talking about. So we know what

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Speaker 1: was going on here. Eric Adams is there to stave himself.

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Speaker 1: He knows he's not going to get re elected as

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Speaker 1: mayor and so he wants to preserve his freedom and

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Speaker 1: looks like it may be working.

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Speaker 2: Eric adams lawyer is Alex Spiro, the personal attorney for

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk. Does that connection to Trump's new best friend

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Speaker 2: help well?

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Speaker 1: When it comes to Alex Spuro, He has had a

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Speaker 1: lot of high profile clients. He's currently representing Jay Z

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Speaker 1: for example, he successfully got Alec Baldwin out of his mess.

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Speaker 1: He's a bulldog. He is a very aggressive attorney. Someone

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Speaker 1: He's not very well liked because he is known for

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Speaker 1: being extremely arrogant, so he fits right in with this

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Speaker 1: crowd apparently. I don't know how much influence he has

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Speaker 1: in magaworld, but I'm sure he helps with Elon, which

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Speaker 1: helps with Trump. But ultimately it's Trump's decision. And Trump

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Speaker 1: likes people who like him, and Eric Adams has gone

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Speaker 1: overboard to genuflect at the Trump Alter. This is so obvious.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we all know that Eric Adams is a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of legal trouble that Trump can get him

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Speaker 1: out of. Only Trump can save him. Really, Now, what

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Speaker 1: is interesting is that when he took off to the inauguration,

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Speaker 1: he left a couple of Martin Luther King Day events

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Speaker 1: that he had committed to and he just took off.

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Speaker 1: He seems to know that his political days in New

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Speaker 1: York are numbered, and so now it's all about protecting

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Speaker 1: your freedom.

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Speaker 2: New York is a sanctuary city and there was a

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Speaker 2: high profile ICE raid pre dawn raid in the Bronx

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Speaker 2: on Tuesday, which the new Secretary of Homeland Security went

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Speaker 2: on and Adam said later that he directed the NYPD

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Speaker 2: to coordinate with DHS, Homeland Security investigations, and other federal

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Speaker 2: law enforcement agencies as allowed by law to conduct a

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Speaker 2: targeted operation. Quite a different reaction than from the mayor

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Speaker 2: of Chicago, which is also a sanctuary city.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean, and the mayor is interested in

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Speaker 1: staying out of the houscau and so I'm not surprised

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Speaker 1: he hasn't raised the fuss about Trump's executive actions. So

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Speaker 1: this is the administration we're going to be dealing with.

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Speaker 1: This is administration that is transactional. And Eric Adams is

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Speaker 1: facing years in prison. Look at Bob Menendez. Bob Menendez

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Speaker 1: and Eric Adams essentially did the same thing allegedly where

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Speaker 1: Eric Adams was involved with Turkey, Bob Menendez was involved

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Speaker 1: with Egypt, and they were all taking foreign funds illegally

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Speaker 1: allegedly for Eric Adams. And when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: tune of them, look how different it. Meanwhile, Eric Adams

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Speaker 1: may get a pardon and may even avoid a trial,

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Speaker 1: and Bob Menendez was sentenced to eleven years in prison.

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Speaker 1: It just depends, I guess, on whether or not the

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Speaker 1: President of the United States likes you. And Bob Menendez

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Speaker 1: now is speaking out and saying things that are sympathetic

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Speaker 1: towards Donald Trump. I wonder why you know, Bob Menendez

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Speaker 1: came out and said that he understands Donald Trump's feelings

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Speaker 1: about federal law enforcement and the weaponization. And you know,

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Speaker 1: so now he's starting to play for the part. I

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Speaker 1: mean to get in line, Michael Abanati. You've got all

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Speaker 1: these people who used to be Trump critics now lining

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Speaker 1: up to say nice things about the guy who could

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Speaker 1: secure their freedom.

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Speaker 2: And to add to the list of people seeking pardons.

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Speaker 2: Sam bankman Fried, according to Bloomberg sources, his parents are

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Speaker 2: exploring ways to secure a pardon. They've had meetings in

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Speaker 2: recent weeks with lawyers and other figures considered to be

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Speaker 2: in Trump's orbit about clemency for SBF, who's serving a

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Speaker 2: twenty five year sentence. Trump has set the president, as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, for Adams, let's talk about getting a pardon

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Speaker 2: versus having the Justice Department drop the charges. It looks

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Speaker 2: better for both Trump and Eric Adams if the case

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Speaker 2: is dropped, rather than that he's convicted and given a pardon.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Also, it avoids a lot of expense, time

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Speaker 1: aggravation if you can just get rid of it now.

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Speaker 1: But no matter what happens, Eric Adams, his political career's toast.

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Speaker 1: It just whether or not he can stay out of

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Speaker 1: prison and avoid his trials. So I mean I would

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Speaker 1: blame him for trying to play for that that's his

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Speaker 1: best route to get out of these charges. More charges

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Speaker 1: could be coming. Of course, he could always stay state charges,

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Speaker 1: which are pardon proof, So that's another possibility. If he

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Speaker 1: is pardoned before any trials he wants, a jury is seated,

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Speaker 1: then double jeopardy attaches, and so there is a pitfall.

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Speaker 1: There is a risk in having a pardon that comes

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Speaker 1: too soon, because then it could still open them up

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Speaker 1: to state charges.

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Speaker 2: What's also sort of unusual and perhaps problematic for the

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Speaker 2: Southern District is that the interim US Attorney last week

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Speaker 2: issued this rebuke to Adams claims that he's the victim

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Speaker 2: of political persecution. And also earlier this month, prosecutors wrote

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Speaker 2: that they'd continued to uncover additional criminal conduct by Adams,

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Speaker 2: indicating that there might be new charges in the works,

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Speaker 2: and the defense attorney also mentioned additional evidence. So it's

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Speaker 2: a peculiar time to be dropping the case, and it's

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Speaker 2: a bad look for the Southern District.

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Speaker 1: Well, the bad look would be for the White House

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Speaker 1: if they bigfooted the Southern District and said we're ending

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Speaker 1: this whole case and because of politics purely, but we

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Speaker 1: saw fifteen hundred writers get pardoned. Some of them are

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Speaker 1: violent cop attackers, So why should we be surprised that

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Speaker 1: Trump looks like he is going to pardon the mayor

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Speaker 1: meer City who is playing Knight.

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Speaker 2: I wonder what the future of public corruption cases is

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Speaker 2: in the Trump administration because earlier this week, the Justice

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Speaker 2: Department senior career official in charge of overseeing public corruption

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Speaker 2: investigations resigned after the Trump administration reassigned him to a

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Speaker 2: new role working on immigration issues, and federal prosecutors have

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Speaker 2: moved to stop several ongoing cases, including one against Jeffrey Fortenberry,

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Speaker 2: a Republican congressman from Nebraska who is facing a second

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Speaker 2: trial on campaign finance violations.

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Speaker 1: Again, we're going to see this a lot where people

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Speaker 1: who are independent of Trump, who to go a different

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Speaker 1: direction than the White House will be reassigned, removed, fired.

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Speaker 1: There'll be a lot of that going on. I'm hopeful

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Speaker 1: that when Pambondi is confirmed as Attorney General, they'll study

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Speaker 1: the ship, because right now the ship of the Department

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Speaker 1: of Justice is singing. Well. One thing you can say

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Speaker 1: is that none of this is a surprise. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Trump ran on politicizing the Department of Justice. He was

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Speaker 1: going to make sure they're not independent. He ran as

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Speaker 1: being your retribution, and so we should not be surprised

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Speaker 1: by it. It's just it's gotten real lately because you

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Speaker 1: see actual things happening, like the release of violent rioters,

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Speaker 1: the ending of corruption cases. It just depends on which

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Speaker 1: side you're on. Are you on Trump's side or are

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Speaker 1: you on the other side, because if you're on the

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Speaker 1: other side against Trump, then those cases aren't going away.

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Speaker 2: Of course, they also fired at least a dozen prosecutors

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Speaker 2: who worked on Trump's criminal cases. Quote in light of

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Speaker 2: their actions, the acting Attorney General does not trust these

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Speaker 2: officials to assist in faithfully implementing the president's agenda. This

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Speaker 2: action is consistent with the mission of ending the weaponization

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Speaker 2: of government. Can those prosecutors now sue the Trump administration?

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Speaker 1: They do every coourse because they are not political appointees,

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Speaker 1: they have civil service protections. But even though they can

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Speaker 1: win in court and get their jobs back, really, what

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Speaker 1: future do they have at this Department of Justice? Even

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Speaker 1: if they get their job back, they'll get reassigned to

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Speaker 1: some area where they don't want to be. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'll get sent to the basement to count paper clips.

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Speaker 1: So no matter what happens, their days at the Department

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Speaker 1: of Justice under his disadministration are numbered as far as

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Speaker 1: winning in court. Yeah, they said, win in court and

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Speaker 1: get some back pay and have the court chastise in

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Speaker 1: Trump administration. But you know Trump doesn't care.

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Speaker 2: Stay with me, Dave. Coming up next, as President Trump

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Speaker 2: is reshaping the Justice Department. His pick to lead the FBI,

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Speaker 2: Cash Patel faced opposition from Senate Democrats during his confirmation

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Speaker 2: hearings today, with critics accusing him of lacking experience and

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Speaker 2: judgment to lead the agency. Patateel insisted that he didn't

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Speaker 2: have enemies list and that the bureau under his leadership

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Speaker 2: would not seek retribution against Trump's adversaries or launch investigations

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Speaker 2: for political purposes.

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Speaker 5: The only thing that will matter if I'm confirmed as

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Speaker 5: a director of the FBI is a de weaponized, depoliticized

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Speaker 5: system of law enforcement, completely devoted to rigorous obedience of

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Speaker 5: the Constitution and a singular standard of justice.

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Speaker 2: Patel faced a persistent line of attack from Democrat They

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Speaker 2: confronted Patel with a vast catalog of his incendiary statements,

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Speaker 2: including an enemies list in the twenty twenty three book

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Speaker 2: he authored, and his calls for purging anti Trump conspirators

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Speaker 2: in the government den news media. Here's an exchange he

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Speaker 2: had with Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island.

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00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 4: Here's what this nominee himself has said about using his

440
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 4: office to prosecute journalists. We will go out and find

441
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 4: the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media.

442
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 4: We're gonna come after you, whether it's criminally or civilly.

443
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 4: Is that a correct quotation, mister Patel, Senator. That's a

444
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 4: partial quotation, but it's correct in part.

445
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: I've been talking to former Palm Beach County State Attorney

446
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 2: Dave Ahrenberg. So Trump has picked to lead the FBI,

447
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: a man who sat on a podcast after the election

448
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: that he would turn the FBI building into a museum.

449
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: Isn't a critic of the FBI, calling it the deep state.

450
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: I've known Cash to Tell for a while and havn't

451
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: spoken him and for seen him since twenty seventeen. But

452
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: he was, i would say, previously on Team normal until

453
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: he changed around twenty twenty. I think it was when

454
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: the CIA flagged his national security file and referred him

455
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: to the Department of Justice for criminal investigation over allegedly

456
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: mishandling classified information. And this is while Patel was high

457
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: up in the Trump National Security Agency, and so Petatel

458
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 1: reacted to that, and that would be, according to Petel's critics,

459
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: his villain origination story, because that's when he hardened his

460
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: views against the so called deep state because he had

461
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: to deal with that criminal investigation of him, and he

462
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: said he did nothing wrong. This was a material that

463
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: he included in a memo that he circulated involving the

464
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: Russia probe. So you know, he's always been out out

465
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: to get those who investigated Trump over Russia, and now

466
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: he saw the CIA moving against him, so he was

467
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: out to get them after that, and then later on

468
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, he learned that the Department of

469
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: Justice had subpoenaed his Gmail account as personal emails. Back

470
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen while he was working for the House

471
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: Select Intelligence Committee as senior counsel and they were investigating

472
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: a potential leak that happened, a leak of national security information.

473
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: So Ptel did not realize that his emails had been

474
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: subpoenaed and given over to the Department of Justice, so

475
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: that just stealed his resolve to go after the so

476
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: called deep State. That's what led to his enemy's list

477
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: sixty individuals from the Deep States who he wants to incarcerate,

478
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 1: including members of what he calls the media mafia. So

479
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: that's why Cash Pattel became who he is today. He's

480
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: a different person than when I knew him a few

481
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: years ago.

482
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: So what is his goal for the FBI?

483
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: Then?

484
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: He has said that he wants to get the FBI

485
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: back to being copped where they're not involved with the

486
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 1: intelligence community. But you remember the reason why the FBI

487
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: is involved with intelligence and worked so closely with the CIA.

488
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: It was because of nine to eleven. There was so

489
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: much criticism that the FBI was asleep at the wheel,

490
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: that beIN Logen was doing all these infarious things, and

491
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: the FBI was not coordinating with the CIA, and that's

492
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: why there were reforms in place. So it looks like

493
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: Pateel wants to undo that and go back to the

494
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: original mission of the FBI domestic law enforcement. But that

495
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: will come at the expense, in my mind, of national security.

496
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: Up to six top FBI executives have been told to

497
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: expect reassignments if Cash Pattel is confirmed as director and

498
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 2: they're the official handling active terrorists, cyber and other threats.

499
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: And these are people who are experienced in their field

500
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: and well respected.

501
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: Right because he wants to limit the scope of the FBI.

502
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: His personal experience was that the FBI encroached upon his

503
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: personal liberties and he liked Trump interprets actions against themselves

504
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: actions against the United States. So Trump says, I will

505
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: be a retribution, and cast Hotel has the same enemies

506
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: list as Donald Trump, So it's a match made in

507
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: heaven right well, because both of them are on the

508
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: same page when it comes to going after the same enemies. Now,

509
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: I do think that once Cash Mootel is in the

510
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: role FBI director, I do think he will back off

511
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: a bit on just targeting enemies because caam Bondi already

512
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: said that's not going to happen here, and he can

513
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: only go so far. He can get himself in a

514
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: lot of trouble if he fakes evidence and brings garbage

515
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: cases against individuals, he will blow up in the space now,

516
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: but he can do damage if he does go after

517
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: individuals he the spikes. As they say, you can beat

518
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: the rat, but you can't beat the ride.

519
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: Let's say he's successful at what he wants to do

520
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: to the FBI and he remains in office for four years,

521
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: how much damage can he do?

522
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: Well if he changes the scope of the FBI to

523
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: no longer work with THECI on intelligence, international terrorism, and counterintelligence,

524
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: then I think actional security will be at risk. That's

525
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: what led to nine to eleven. So you may not

526
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: see the impact until much later, but at some point,

527
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: if God forbid, there's a terrorist attacking is touching you

528
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: wonder why the FBI was not coordinating with our spy agencies.

529
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: Well there's a reason why.

530
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: Well we shall see if a fierce critic of the

531
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: FBI gets to lead it. Thanks so much, Dave. That's

532
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach County State Attorney. Former US

533
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: Senator Bob Menendez was sentenced to eleven years in prison

534
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: for acting as a foreign agent of Egypt and accepting

535
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: gold bars and other bribes in what prosecutors said was

536
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: perhaps the worst corruption case ever involving a US senator.

537
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: Menendez maintains his innocence.

538
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,719
Speaker 4: Welcome to the Southern District of New York, the wild

539
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 4: West of political prosecutions. President Trump is right. This process

540
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 4: is political and it's corrupted to the core.

541
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis, who covered

542
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: the trial. In Sentencing David, eleven years for a seventy

543
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: one year old man seems like a harsh punishment.

544
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 6: It is a very tough sentence that US histric Judge

545
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 6: Sidney Stein gave to ex Senator Menendez, but it's actually

546
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 6: a departure downward from advisory sentencing guidelines under federal law.

547
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 6: The judge gave him a bit of leniency for his

548
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 6: age and for his five decades of service to the

549
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 6: public as an elected official.

550
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: Tell Us about his tearful plead to the judge before he.

551
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 6: Was sentenced, Bob Menendez was quite choked up. The courtroom

552
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 6: was packed, and he made a heartfelt, emotional appeal for mercy.

553
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 6: He asked the judge to consider his long career in

554
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 6: the Senate and the House, and the many actions he

555
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 6: had taken for his constituents, the legislative accomplishments that he

556
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 6: had achieved, and the advocacy that he had put forward

557
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 6: on behalf of Hispanics, people in New Jersey, even refugees

558
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 6: or immigrants in the United States. He sort of gave

559
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 6: a tearful overview of his career and said that the

560
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 6: judge should not focus only on his crimes, but you

561
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 6: know the full accomplishments in his life.

562
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: When he went outside the courtroom, he seemed to be

563
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: reaching out to President Trump. He said, the process is

564
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: political and it's corrupted to the core. I hope President

565
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: Trump cleans up the cesspool and restores integrity to the system.

566
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: Is he looking for a pardon from Trump?

567
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 6: He is planning to ask Trump for a pardon. It's

568
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 6: not clear whether that would happen. He has been a

569
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 6: vocal critic of Trump for many years, but in saying

570
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 6: that he's the victim of a witch hunt now, which

571
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 6: is what he said yesterday, he's sort of parroting the

572
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 6: language that Trump uses, and he seems to be appealing

573
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 6: to Trump's sense that the Justice Department is broken and

574
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 6: carries out vindictive and political prosecutions.

575
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: He says he's going to appeal. Do you know any

576
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 2: of the arguments he plans to raise in the appeal?

577
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, A couple of the arguments have to do with

578
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 6: the speech or debate protections that legislators have through the

579
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 6: US Constitution. There was a dispute that happened in the

580
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 6: last couple of months relating to the laptop full of

581
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 6: exhibits that went to jurors, and prosecutors disclosed that they

582
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 6: gave exhibits that were unredacted and supposed to be reacted

583
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 6: to the jury that the defense lawyer said directly implicated

584
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 6: the speechure debate clause by referring to legislative actions. That

585
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 6: Menendez took quite.

586
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: A downfall for a once powerful and respected senator. Thanks

587
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: so much, David. That's David Voriakis, Bloomberg Legal Reporter, and

588
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

589
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

590
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

591
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, Slash podcast Slash Law,

592
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

593
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso

594
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg