WEBVTT - How to Cope With a Coworker Who Interrupts 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.600 Think back to the last meeting you had, did someone 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:08.119 interrupt you? It's pretty frustrating, right, and you're totally justified 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.440 in being annoyed, But it also turns out that interruptions 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:27.360 have bigger consequences. This is game Plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.480 Greenfield and I'm Francesco Leavy, and this week we're talking 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:35.840 about the universal phenomenon of being interrupted while speaking at work. 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:38.720 It happens to all of us, and we all do it. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.159 I had to hold back from interrupting you just now 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.360 you're doing your introduction. Yeah, I've learned, um, that I 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.680 am an interrupt or. Well, first of all, I should say, 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.479 when we had a meeting to plan this episode, Um, you, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.200 me and one of our producers basically spent the whole 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.680 meeting interrupting you other. And we all acknowledge that. Well, 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.640 you and I acknowledge that we are kind of natural interrupters. 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.800 It's part of our conversational cadence. Yeah, it's just um 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:07.000 and family upbringings I think teach you that if you 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.080 want to be heard, you have to interrupt, which is 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:14.000 an unfortunate truth maybe in meetings, but it's also part 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.760 of like a vicious cycle of if you're feel like 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:18.880 you have to interrupt, then you're always interrupting, and then 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.280 people are getting interrupted, and maybe we should learn how 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.080 to have better public discourse. But I like to make 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.560 myself feel better by thinking that when I interrupt, it's 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.400 not so bad because I'm I am still listening to 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.680 somebody and I am interrupting because I'm like so enthused 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.560 about what they're saying that I just want to interject 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:41.080 my my approval or like my follow up thought. That's 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.840 nice of you, because I definitely do the thing where 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.600 I'm just thinking of the brilliant thing i want to say, 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:48.800 and I'm just so excited to say, and I can't 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.200 help myself sometimes. But maybe that means the other person 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.280 you're talking to is not that interesting. No, when that 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.280 when when I get interrupted in a certain way, it 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.800 annoys me deeply. And I was thinking about this in 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.960 preparation to talk about it with you, and I think 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.639 that what what bothers me more than somebody interrupting me 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.200 in let's say a meeting, is them interrupting me and 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.160 then like my voice not getting heard because they interrupted me. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.480 So someone can interrupt you, and then someone else can 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:20.880 say like oh wait, back up. I want to hear 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.760 the rest of what Francesco said, and it's just like 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:24.799 it never happened. And I feel like that's a natural 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:27.360 conversational thing that happens. But when someone interrupts you and 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.799 then later says the exact same thing you said, but 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.880 everyone else congratulates them for their insight, or they just 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:35.960 start talking about something else, and you're like, no, no, no, 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:37.760 we could have had this. We could have been having 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.960 a different conversation if you had just let me finish. 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.040 So it's it's that feeling of not being heard, which 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.720 it's not the interrupting itself, it's the interrupting and then 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.720 like the group dynamic supporting the interruption. And I think 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:52.560 that piece of it is they're a little gendered or 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.480 can be gendered. Um. We were thinking about talking about 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.639 this because interruptions of women in particular husband and the 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.760 news so much recently with Senator Kamala Harris being interrupted 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.240 un of course, you know the classic Taylor swift to 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.480 be interrupted, and it's harder for people to hear women 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.200 in meetings just to prove that this isn't just us 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.680 anecdotally complaining about our experiences and meetings. Um, I will 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:21.480 just point to some of the research that was a 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:25.680 really interesting study in these two linguists. They recruited forty 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.639 people to have conversations, and when there was men paired 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.359 with women, they interrupted them on average two point one times, 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.800 and when it was men and men they only interrupted 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:40.360 one point eight times, which um. And then there's been 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:43.880 research looking at the Senate and Supreme Court that both 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:48.000 showed that women in these powerful groups also got interrupted more. 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.960 It doesn't surprise me at all, but I also have 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.080 a hard time understanding why people do it to women 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.600 so much. I mean, years of socialization, Francesca. But the 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.480 other frustrating thing is that when women are maybe anyone, 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.400 when you try to push back and assert yourself, women 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:07.800 also in particular get punished for that. We've talked about 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.400 how you know, when women try to speak up, we're 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.040 seen as more aggressive or I mean, there's a lot 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:16.600 of research about how like women do things that are 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.440 perceived as angry or incompetent when the exactly behavior by 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.719 men is perceived as a leadership quality. Yeah, but and 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.359 also like why wouldn't you been why wouldn't you be 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.440 angry if you've been interrupted? Five times in a row. 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:29.880 By the time you get to the point where you 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.560 have to say, like, guys, please quiet down and listen 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.239 to me, maybe you're right in having a slightly angry tone. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.479 There was a Times article that solicited um all these 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:41.960 women who had said they had been interrupted, and one 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.719 of the women quoted in the article said that she 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.520 had to wait until she was interrupted five times before 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:50.839 bringing up because if she did bring it up sooner 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.480 than that, then people would get mad at her. It's 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:57.000 like you're speaking out of turn if you just expect 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.240 to be heard all the way through the first time 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.599 you say something, yeah exactly, oh yeah, yeah yeah. Getting 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.000 interrupted isn't just annoying. I mean, it is annoying and frustrating, 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.960 but by affecting who gets to speak in meetings and 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:14.279 whose voice gets hurt, it also impacts business decisions. And 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.039 that's exactly what our guest today has written an entire 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:21.560 book on. Chris carp Wooz is the co director of 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.560 the Center for the Study of Elections and Democracy at 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.720 Brigham Young University. He also co wrote with Tolly Mendelberg, 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:40.160 The Silent Sex, Gender Deliberation and Institutions. Thanks so much 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.880 for coming on. It's great to be here. Thanks for 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.520 having me. So what made you decide that you wanted 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:49.080 to study the gender dynamics in group meetings. Well, I've 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.680 been interested in how small groups make decisions together, how 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.599 they talk about politics, and how they make decisions together 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:01.960 for quite a long time. And as Tolly, my co author, 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:07.400 and I started talking about this project, we first sort 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.159 of got into, um some findings by other scholars, and 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:14.600 we noticed some very interesting gender dynamics, and that made 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.800 us want to pursue this topic uh further. And I 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.800 think in addition to those scholarly reasons, just our own 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:28.440 experiences as men and women in groups made us fascinated 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.200 by the dynamics of those groups and about how those 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:37.600 groups come to decisions together and what happens when members 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.839 of those groups start talking together. Can you tell us 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.479 about what some of those gender dynamics you discovered in 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:48.280 the previous research were. Yeah, Well, we found that first 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:54.120 there were, um, there appeared to be differences in the 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.520 authority that men and women had within the groups, and 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.520 that gets demonstrated in a variety of different ways, one 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:05.440 of which is just the raw talk time of men 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.440 and women. And we noticed some disparities there, and we 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.400 wanted to understand how changing different features of the group, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.880 like how many women or how many men are in 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.240 the group, or how they were asked to make decisions, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:26.480 whether through majority rule or unanimous consensus rule, how those 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.560 features of the group affected what happened and how exactly 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:33.800 did you research that. One of the places we looked 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.000 to try to figure out what was happening in these 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:41.360 group settings was school board meetings from all across the country. 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.960 And the interesting thing about school boards is that you 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:51.040 actually get really interesting differences in gender composition across those boards, 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.000 and so that was one place where we could look 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.840 to see how how does changing certain features of the 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.920 group affect what happens within the group and what did 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.440 you find? Well, we found that it makes a big difference. 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:10.480 So in the most common kind of group in politics today, 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.960 so groups with more men than women that decide by 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:20.360 majority rule, we found that women were far less likely 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.720 to speak up than men. And when I say less likely, 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.480 I mean not just less likely because there were fewer 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.320 women in the group, but but less likely than we 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.720 would expect given their lower numbers in the group. So, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.920 for example, we found in groups of five people with 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.080 four men and one woman deciding on a topic together 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:48.800 by majority rule, the women tended to take up about 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.960 ten percent or so of the conversation, even though they're 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.240 twenty of the people in the room. So so when 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.440 we say that they're speaking up less, they're speaking up 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.480 far less than we would expect given their numbers. They're 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.880 already low numbers in the group. And so we found 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:10.640 these really stark gender dynamics where increasing the number of 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.520 women in the group really helped women to participate more fully. 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.480 But also changing other features of the group also mattered. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.400 So if we take that same group with one woman 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:27.040 and four men and we said, now decide by unanimous 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:31.760 rule instead of by majority rule, that also helped the 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.719 woman who was outnumbered to speak up a little more, 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:41.199 because unanimous rule sends the signal that everybody's vote matters 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.760 and everybody's voice matters. Therefore, did you look into why 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.120 it was that women didn't speak up as much. Well, 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.199 we can get some clues about why that's the case. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.280 So one of the things we found was that um 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.760 going into these group sessions before they even met the 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.800 other members of the group or had any you know, 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:09.040 big interaction together, we found that UM women were less 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.760 likely than men to be confident that that they could 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.400 be effective in the group setting. And and we're not 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.000 the only scholars who have found that. There are other 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.720 scholars who have looked into this sense of efficacy or 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:28.080 confidence have also found gender differences there. So, so one 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.560 of the things that seems to be happening is that 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:35.480 men and women, most likely because of their experiences outside 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:40.320 any individual group, come into the group setting with different 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:45.160 sets of expectations and and different levels of confidence about 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.520 their own authority and their own ability to make a 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.680 difference in the group. Can you say more about those 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.560 patterns of interruption that you mentioned, What are they and 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:58.720 how can group dynamics change them? So we invited both 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.760 students and men is of the community to come in 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.360 UM for a study about how people make decisions together. 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.640 And then we told them that later in the lab 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:11.880 session they were going to make they were going to 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.199 have an opportunity to earn some money. And then we said, 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.199 you get to decide together how you want to divide 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.920 the money that is earned, and you can divide it 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.640 however you want. So if you don't want to divide 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:26.040 it at all, if you just want to let some 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.680 people earn a lot more than others, that's fine, but 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.480 you could also choose to to to redistribute it in 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.160 some way among the group members. And so we asked 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.840 them to talk about that question and to come up 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:45.920 with a principle for redistributing the money that they would 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.080 feel good about for their group and that they would 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:52.400 feel good about applying to society more broadly. And so 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.320 that's the conversation that they were having. As they were 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.600 having that conversation, we recorded. We told them that we 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.400 were recording it, and we and we recorded very carefully 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.520 what each person said, and then we could go back 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.120 and look at times in which people interrupted each other 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.240 by an interruption. We meant a time where somebody was 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.760 talking and somebody else broke in um and tried to 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.720 say something else. And one of the things we looked 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.120 at was the fact that there are different kinds of interruptions. 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.680 So when you interrupt someone else, that could either be 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:29.800 a positive thing or a negative thing. And by positive interruptions, 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.040 we mean times when someone is talking and someone else 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.480 breaks into show support and solidarity. They might say something 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.080 like oh yeah, yeah, that's a good idea. And they're 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.560 technically speaking over the other person, but they're doing it 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.040 in a way that actually enhances the authority of the speaker. 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:51.040 They're helping that speaker to feel good about what they're 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.680 saying and to let them know, hey, people are listening 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.319 to you and they want to hear more of what 0:12:56.360 --> 0:13:01.280 you're saying. But there are also negative interruptions. By negative interruptions, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.280 we mean times when someone interrupts to say no or 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.720 to take the floor and just start talking about something 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.480 totally different. UM that happens a lot of negative interruptions 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.839 as well, and so we could look at the differences 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:19.480 between these positive and negative interruptions, and one of the 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:26.240 things we find is that as women become more authoritative 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.920 and successful parts of the group, they're being interrupted in 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:35.840 positive ways more often, and they're being interrupted by men 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:40.160 less often in negative ways. So in groups where there 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.920 are more women, or in groups where the group has 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:48.760 to decide by consensus, that rule where you know every 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:54.439 voice matters, then women receive from men more positive feedback 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.960 and less negative feedback. And that seems to be a 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:04.320 really important UM dynamic because it's associated those same groups 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.360 where women are being interrupted more in more positive ways. 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.480 Are also the groups where women are talking a little more. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.960 They're also the groups where women are um saying things 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.760 that are quite distinct and different from what men are saying. 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.720 And they're the groups where women are seen as more 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.480 influential and authoritative members of the group by themselves and 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.960 by the other members of the group. That doesn't mean 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:37.000 that men and women can't ever disagree about issues UM 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:42.160 or shouldn't ever disagree um. It just means that really 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:47.200 successful groups in the sense of women's authority are groups 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.400 where there's a kind of underlying sense of rapport and 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:57.000 support that even where they have um differences of opinion, 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:01.280 they're not interrupting each other in ways at sap the 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.400 authority of the other members of the group. Yeah, it 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.400 reminds me of the strategy that the women and the 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.960 Obama administration used. They called it amplification, So when a 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.080 woman made a point, another one would repeat it and 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.560 give credit to the speaker as a way to kind 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.120 of amplify each other's voices. Are there are other things 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.560 that women can do like that. The example of the 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:26.000 Obama White House is a really great example of how 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:32.520 women can um develop strategies that enhance their authority and 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.680 their ability to make a difference in decision making. So 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.680 that notion of amplifying each other and helping the other 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.880 members of the group recognize good ideas that women bring forward, 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.560 I think is it's just a terrific example of the 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.920 kinds of things that can happen for us. We were 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:55.560 really looking at these two factors in our study. We 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.960 were looking at these two factors. One the decision rule 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.760 that the group makes and too, um who's in the 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.120 room UM. And the good news is that we often 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.640 have control over one or the other of those things. 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.120 So if it's a group that is going to make 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:19.280 decisions by majority rule, then one thing that UM, people 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.040 who care about women's participation and authority might do is 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.320 find ways for more women to be part of that group. 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.600 If that's not a possibility, if the group is meeting 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.880 together and it's and it's not a possibility to increase 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.080 the number of women, you might the group might might 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.040 think about how to change the way they make the decision. 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.800 So groups have control over that too. They might say, well, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.360 let's have some rules by which we can be sure 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:54.240 that everyone is participating successfully. UM. And so groups with 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:58.720 few women might want to use consensus procedures more often. Now, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.440 there are some downsides to consensus procedures that can make 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.840 it take longer to make decisions. It can be harder 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.359 in some ways. But having group members think hard about 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.840 the signals that they're sending to each other is a 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:15.399 really important thing. One of my colleagues from graduate school 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.560 said that in her sorority they had a rule about um, 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:25.320 sort of how to show positive feedback, and they would snap, um, 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:27.639 you know if someone was saying something that they really liked. 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.560 And that's kind of a silly example, but um. But 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.760 you can think of lots of ways where groups can 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.760 be sensitive to the signals that they're sending each other. 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:42.080 Other groups, I know, use other kinds of rules like 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.440 um um, a rule maybe where everybody has to talk 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.719 once before anybody talks twice. You know. Uh. There there 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.320 are a variety of opportunities and ideas and and I 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.160 think the key is for groups to be aware of 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.320 what the typical dynamics are and to find ways creatively 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.080 that send the signal that every member of the group 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:11.000 matters and that everybody's voice matters. In small decision making 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.359 groups like a school board, or like a p T, 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:19.480 a committee or even a work team. It's really important 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:23.440 for groups to think about these sorts of core core 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:25.560 features of the group and how they're going to work 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.960 together as a group. And the good news, as I said, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.360 is that groups have control over this, and there are 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:36.320 reasons to care about that, those decision making processes and 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:40.000 who's at the meetings besides just wanting to be nicer 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.280 to women, right, like you have said that it affects 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.360 the actual substance of the conversation absolutely, and I think 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.119 this is the most important reason. Right. So, when women 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:54.120 have greater levels of authority and power within the group, 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.879 when they speak up more often and articulate their opinions, 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.360 they don't say the same things as men. So it's 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:04.639 not just the case that you know, the women in 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:06.600 the in the room is just going to repeat what 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:11.400 the men have said. Women have have good ideas. I mean, 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.000 that's kind of so straightforward and obvious, but it's true, 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:17.640 and um don't say the same things as men. That's 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.360 not to say that women and men always say radically 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:24.000 different things. That there's overlapped there too, and there's diversity 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.440 within both groups of men and women. But women don't 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.000 say the same things as men, So you're adding you're 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:35.480 improving the conversation by adding new perspectives and new ideas. 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.359 And second, UM, in groups where women are empowered, the 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:44.880 ultimate decisions were quite different. So remember our groups were 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.959 all about how the group would divide money that they earned. 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.679 We found that in groups where women were more talkative 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:58.280 and thus more empowered, UM, more participatory and more empowered, 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.640 that the group was much more generous to those who 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.960 earned the least, so they were more concerned about the poor. UM, 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.520 they were more concerned about those who didn't do as well. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.840 And there were other features of the conversation that we're 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:18.160 also different. But but we think that's a pretty important 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:21.959 thing when it comes to big decisions that we're making 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.240 as a nation. We need the perspective of both men 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.919 and women to be articulated fully and we find that 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:33.840 when that happens, groups make different kinds of decisions. Well, 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.080 thank you so much for coming and talking to us 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.919 about this, UM. It was really interesting. I'm glad to 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:52.000 be here. Thanks so much for having me so Christmas. 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.040 Research found that when women are empowered more to speak, 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:58.359 different decisions get made. And it's interesting if you think 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.359 about it in the context of all these punnies that 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.639 are trying to hire for diversity, because there's all this 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.840 research that shows that it's good for the bottom lines 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:10.520 of businesses, and if the people that you're hiring, if 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:12.800 their voices aren't going to get hurt in meetings, it 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:17.600 really diminishes the effect of hiring them. Yeah, sorry to interrupt, 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.840 but I liked that his book points out that you're 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:28.200 that as a person running a meeting or running a company, 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:32.000 you should work hard to make sure that underrepresented groups 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.160 get heard, not just to make them feel better, although 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.240 that matters because you want to retain people and you 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.000 want people to develop in their jobs, but because you're 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:42.880 just going to have a different outcome, you're gonna hear 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:47.200 different kinds of perspectives if those less typically less heard 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:51.400 people have a chance to speak up, and he gave 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.199 some examples for how to do that, although I'm not 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.960 sure that they would quite work in a business world. Yeah, 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.760 his consensus thing was really interesting. I mean, I liked 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:03.520 the philosophy that if you just create a system where 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.480 everyone has to be heard and has to be acknowledged 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.199 in order to arrive at a decision, that's that's going 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.120 to eliminate some of the kind of like natural jockeying 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.800 for power and meetings. But a consensus decision making process 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:20.399 sounds super long and exhausting to me. Yeah, it's I 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:22.680 can I can picture how it would go down in 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:24.639 some of the meetings that I'm in every day that 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.639 are already really long, and I can only imagine it 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.000 making them twice as long. I read about this thing 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.600 back before I worked here called it was a solution 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:36.680 to brainstorming, and how it was a similar problem in brainstorming, 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.240 the extra verts and the loudest people and the interrupters, 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.400 their ideas get more heard more and so they kind 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.920 of outweigh the other ideas which could still be good. 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.320 So there were these researchers who said that you should 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:51.600 do this thing, which has a terrible name called brain writing, 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.239 and that you should people should write down all their 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.359 ideas and then you talk about them in the meaning yeah, 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:00.840 I love that, and we are we should give some 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:02.600 voice of the introverts who are not in the room, 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.800 since you and I are not introverts, but yes, like you, 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:09.280 there is a thing where the people who come off 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:11.960 as the smart ones are the creative ones are happen 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:14.320 to be the ones who have said the most in meetings, 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.440 and that's typically not a measure of anything except how 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:20.440 comfortable you are speaking up and interrupting other people. And 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.679 introverts hate that UM and I like the idea. It's 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.119 sort of matches that consensus theory of of submitting your 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:29.840 idea as ahead of time, so that they get evaluated 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:32.040 outside of the meeting, like everybody has to read it, 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:33.840 read them over, and then you come in and discuss 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:38.760 everyone's idea. UM it eliminates I think some of that dynamic. 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.159 Although if you're going to have meetings, you're always going 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:45.600 to have people talking over each other. And you know, 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.160 what we talked about earlier, and what Chris talked about 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:51.640 in the interview about women just kind of getting hurt 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.879 differently or not getting hurt at all, I think is 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:57.359 proof that it's up to the person running the meeting. 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:00.600 You know, as an individual, you can't help whether people 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:02.200 are going to interrupt you, and you can't help whether 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:04.159 you're going to come off as sounding super angry if 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:06.520 you object to getting interrupted. So I think it's just 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:10.639 really important for people running meetings and running organizations to 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:14.720 acknowledge that there's something more going on than just a 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:17.439 regular conversation when people are interrupting and you have to 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:19.800 kind of make sure everyone gets heard, and there are 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.320