1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:01,680 Speaker 1: Trust me. 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 2: Trust me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lived. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 3: To you, do you think that one person has all 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 3: the answers? Don't welcome to trust Me? The podcast about 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 3: Colt's extreme belief and the abusive power from two souls 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 3: who've actually experienced it. 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 3: And today is part two of our interview with Frank Leiford, 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 3: survivor of Heavenskate, whom you've seen on the HBO docuseries 10 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 3: about Heaven's Gate called Heaven Skate. This week, we're going 11 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 3: to discuss the moment that he would have escaped with 12 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 3: his ex girlfriend if she'd asked, the many red flags 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 3: that were building up after one of the leaders died, 14 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 3: including talk of castration, and what led him to the 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 3: decision to finally, after eighteen years, breakaway, plus. 16 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 4: His last conversation with his ex girlfriend, Erica, and what 17 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 4: it was like when he heard on the news that there'd 18 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 4: been a mass suicide and he knew it was them, 19 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 4: his friends, his cousin and the love of his life. 20 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: And the lessons he learned through the experience. This one's a. 21 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 3: Tough one, so gonna give y'all a trigger warning. There 22 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 3: will be talk of suicide. It will be sad, but 23 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 3: it will be worth it in my opinion. If you 24 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 3: feel like stick it around, and if you don't, then don't. 25 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: We won't get mad, or will we. 26 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 4: Could you just leave it playing with the volume off 27 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 4: so we could get it counted as a listen. 28 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: If you're not going to. 29 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 3: You don't have to be triggered, but maybe like, let 30 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: your phone be triggered for you. 31 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: So that we still get this. 32 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 3: No, my goodness, well we will get into that shortly, 33 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 3: but for now, Megan, I would like to know what 34 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: the cultiest thing that happened to you this week was. 35 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 4: Well, it really didn't happen to me nor this week, 36 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 4: but I have been exploring the royal family for the 37 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 4: past few weeks, just you know, since the Megan markll 38 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,919 Speaker 4: Oprah interview. What a cult? 39 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: What a dude? 40 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, psycho psycho cult. People are really on different size 41 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 4: about it. It's interesting. 42 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: The thing that I find the most interesting about it 43 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: is like the love of isolation from the outside world, 44 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 3: Like the fact that Megan asked for psychiatric help and 45 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 3: was refused. 46 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: And they took her passport. 47 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 3: Oh my god, yes, yes, right, that's so isolating. I mean, 48 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,119 Speaker 3: that is a hallmark of a thing that a cult does, 49 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: Like you cut them off from the things that they know. 50 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 3: I mean obviously, like they still had their family friend 51 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: that helped them through it, so it's not like they 52 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 3: were cut off from all communication. But still that is 53 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 3: a version of isolation that it seems devastating. Absolutely, and 54 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 3: they're so powerful it's like, yeah, there's definitely power dynamics 55 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 3: at play in that whole scenario. That was such a 56 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: good interview, so good, I mean, what good television, man. 57 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: But yeah, the way that she's been mistreated, it's fucked up, man, 58 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 3: it is fucked up up. Do you know people who 59 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 3: are on the other side of the issue who think 60 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 3: that Megan is not a victim? 61 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 4: You know, I feel like a lot of people's moms 62 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 4: are really on the queen side. Like just a few 63 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 4: people have been like, yeah, my mom really shocked me, 64 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 4: and she's like the Queen does not deserve this. She's old, 65 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 4: and like stop stressing her out or I don't know, they. 66 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 3: Just they were very careful to be like the queen 67 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: is a good person. It's not the queen, it's someone else. 68 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: Do you think it was Oh, you know, I have 69 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: no idea, but probably still her. 70 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: I've heard lots of people theorize that it's her husband. 71 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 3: I feel so invested in this whole situation because I'm 72 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: a super fan of the Crown. 73 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: I love the Crown. Have you've seen it? I tried, 74 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: but you know, not for me. 75 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: No, it's so good, especially this last season when where 76 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: Diana comes in. 77 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: Ooh, it's juicy. It's fucking juicy. 78 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: It's really sad, I mean, and it is interesting how 79 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: what has happened with Megan really does echo that whole situation. 80 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 4: Man, it's time we start knocking some of these institutions down. 81 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 4: You know. That reminds me, what was the cultiest thing 82 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 4: that happened to you this week? Because it kind of 83 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 4: I think I know what it is, and it kind 84 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 4: of correlates. 85 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: Our answers are similar. 86 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: Mine is also topical Woody Allan watching the Woody Allen docuseries, 87 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: seeing people's reactions to that, looking at the power dynamics 88 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: that were at play there, and how complicated it is. 89 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: I mean, personally I believe Dylan, but I know a 90 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: number of people who don't, and I find it fascinating 91 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: how motivated people are to believe Woody Allen, right, Like, 92 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 3: is it possible that some people have in the history 93 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 3: of mankind lied? Of course it's possible, and of course 94 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 3: sometimes it happens. But in this case, he was a 95 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 3: person who literally was dating MIA's other daughter from the 96 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: time that she was in high school. It's very well documented, 97 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 3: and no, that doesn't translate into being into seven year olds, 98 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 3: but it was also no like documented by adult that 99 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: he had an inappropriate relationship with her and was seeing 100 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: with his head and. 101 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: Her lap facing her body. 102 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 3: I gotten actually a big long debate about it with 103 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 3: some friends the other day. There was just like a 104 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: whole raging debate because apparently there's been this like all 105 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 3: alternative documentary that upholds Moses's story, Moses being Woody Allen's 106 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 3: other son, who's basically says they're all. 107 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: Lying and that he was actually abused. 108 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: And it is complicated because you want to believe him 109 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: as a victim as well. But there just is a 110 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: lot of documentation by adults about what happened with Dylan 111 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: specifically at the time, and I can't I don't have 112 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 3: enough information to know whether Mia was ever he says 113 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: they're a lot to Moses. 114 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 4: But I mean, don't get me wrong, Mia is a 115 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 4: piece of work, and that house is so stressful. 116 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: It's just like covered in the craziest decorations I've ever seen. 117 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: Everyone else noticed the decorations, and I guess I was 118 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: so transfixed by the story that I didn't catch any 119 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 3: of them. 120 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: What were they? 121 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 4: It's like very nick knack heavy and like a Grammy way, 122 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 4: but nothing's cute. 123 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: I like cute clutter. 124 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 4: It's like every doll they had had like missing eyes, 125 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 4: and it was just like a weird. 126 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: But she she is an odd lady, there's no doubt. 127 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: So sure, yeah, she's I mean, I could say the 128 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 3: same thing about family members of mine, though, and it 129 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: doesn't totally say to anything totally. 130 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. 131 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: But but if you guys haven't watched the Woody Allen 132 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: docu series, I recommend watching it before forming an opinion 133 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 3: because most of the people I know were sort of 134 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 3: in the camp of oh MEA probably coached Dylan for 135 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: this entire time, And it's only seeing this other information 136 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: and like other corroboration from adults who were adults at 137 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 3: the time that were like, oh, Okay, maybe we were 138 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 3: fed that narrative by this like powerful media machine. 139 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, he got in there so quick with 140 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 4: the pr and the whatever so. 141 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 3: And hearing the conversations between them with them on the phone. 142 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: Obviously they're cherry picked moments, but he sounds scary like 143 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: I was scared of him listening to those. But anyway, 144 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 3: we'll never know for sure. 145 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: But I don't know. 146 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 3: Man, if you're vehemently insisting that Woody Allen, who we 147 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 3: know has had a penchant for underage girls, if you're 148 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 3: vehemently insisting that he didn't do it, as opposed to 149 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 3: just being like, probably he did it, it's possible that 150 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: he didn't. If you're so vehement about it, I feel 151 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: like that's maybe something to look at. I'm just saying, 152 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 3: maybe you're in the Woody Allen cult. Yeah, maybe maybe 153 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: Willy Allen is your cult leader because Annie Hall made 154 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: you come so many times when you're growing up and 155 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: you were obsessed with it. I do love Annie Hall. 156 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: Sucks. 157 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 4: I love everyone says I love you, but you know 158 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 4: it's not worth giving up my morals exactly. 159 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: I do. I believe Dylan. 160 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: I believe her, and I believe Ronan and also Ronan 161 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 3: just what a beautiful man. 162 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 4: I mean, are you speaking of his heart or of 163 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 4: his physical appearance? 164 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 5: Oh? 165 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: Both? Him as a baby is the cutest thing I 166 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: have ever seen ever. He's so cute. 167 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: But also he's literally changed the culture. He's got a 168 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: perfect face. I don't know if they're still together. I 169 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: haven't looked into it, but last I heard his boyfriend 170 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: was one of the guys from Podze of America, and 171 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 3: They're like this political power couple and I'm just obsessed 172 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: with them and I want to be in their relationship. 173 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: So I'm just putting that out into the world, alright, 174 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: So you want to manifest it? 175 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: No, anyway, I think it's about that time now where 176 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: we start getting back into things with Frank. 177 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: Right. 178 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 3: So we left off last week with Frank telling us 179 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 3: about how he had been in the group for a 180 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 3: long time at this point, and T one of the 181 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: two leaders. It was T and Doe, and T was 182 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 3: the woman and Doe was the man who you've probably 183 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 3: seen in the videos that they made. Te died of 184 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: cancer and this was totally against their plans. They were 185 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 3: going to be taken up into space while they were 186 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 3: still alive. So things started really changing with Doe. He 187 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 3: started getting more controlling, he started getting more obsessive, and 188 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 3: basically he started talking about suicide. So that's where we 189 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 3: left off last week, and we'll catch up with him 190 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: now he's passing. 191 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 5: In that way a huge impact on Doe's thinking about 192 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 5: how the graduation would occur, and that worked on him 193 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 5: over the coming months and years, to the point where 194 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 5: he began to entertain ideas of how we might do 195 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 5: our vehicles in which was entirely diametrically posed to the 196 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 5: way it was originally presented. 197 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: How was it originally persented we will be taken up 198 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: in a craft while we're conscious, we will ascend while 199 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: conscious and alive. But now t has died, so there 200 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: must he's got to find a way to reshape the narrative, right. 201 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 5: And as Sawyer mentioned, he talked about how he came 202 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 5: across a book about how to take one's life. 203 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: And he was shocked. 204 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, he found it cleaning up those quarters one time, 205 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 5: and that queued him into the fact that Doe was 206 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 5: considering how we might leave by taking our lives. That 207 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 5: happened shortly after Tea passed on. 208 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: What did you think about that. 209 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: It was a huge red flag for me, but I 210 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: supprised it. It couldn't bring it up. 211 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 5: I couldn't talk to anybody about it because it would 212 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 5: have been at least I thought it would have been 213 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 5: seen as doubting. 214 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: My older member. 215 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 5: But there were other red flags like that. I mean 216 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 5: one thing, in April of nineteen ninety three, a branch 217 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 5: Davidian caught fire in Waco, Texas, and that made a 218 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 5: huge impression on Dough That got him thinking about how 219 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 5: maybe we should learn to fire firearms and that would 220 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 5: stimulate our own demise. And you know, that was a 221 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 5: huge red leg for me, like, oh yeah, like that's 222 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 5: going to work really well, isn't it. 223 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 3: As In, like, if you had guns, a standoff with 224 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 3: the police would happen and they would kill you, right right. 225 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 5: But not necessarily a standoff. Simply the fact that we 226 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 5: had guns would cause an altercation that would end up 227 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 5: taking our lives. But I think they decided that would 228 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 5: be too messy. This was after I left. They decided 229 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 5: not to do that. But Waco happened in April of 230 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 5: ninety three and I left in August. 231 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: Can you talk to us about the time when you 232 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 3: and Erica both go back to Calgary and visit your families. 233 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 5: I think that's after Teas passing, probably like around September 234 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 5: eighty five. 235 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: Since both of her families. 236 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 5: Were in Calgary, Dough decided we could be each other's 237 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 5: check partners. 238 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: Why were you allowed to go home? 239 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 5: This was the second visit I believe, back to visit 240 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 5: our families. And the reason that that came up was 241 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 5: because our mother of one of the members, had been 242 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 5: in contact, had somehow been making contacts with different ex 243 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 5: members and gathering information about us, you know, trying to 244 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 5: locate her son. She was also making contact with other 245 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 5: members who are still in the group with their families. 246 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 5: She started putting out a newsletter every month or two Goodness, 247 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 5: and they would all receive news and updates through this network. 248 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 5: My parents were in the network and Erica's parents were 249 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 5: in the network. So the visits to families were designed 250 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 5: to allay our family's fears about what we were doing, 251 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 5: that we weren't in danger and you know, we weren't 252 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 5: up to no good and we were healthy and happy, and. 253 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: That was what it was designed to do. 254 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 5: So one visit was before Tea passed on and the 255 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 5: other visit was afterwards, so we were going to travel together. 256 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 5: So we traveled back to Calgary and we had a 257 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 5: layover in Salt Lake City, so we were sitting in 258 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 5: the secluded area of the airport. There was not much activity, 259 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 5: and I felt this overwhelming. 260 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: Feeling of. 261 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 5: Love for Erica that I hadn't allowed myself to feel, 262 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 5: even though we lived in the same house. I would 263 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 5: always suppress it in you know, the routines of everyday life. 264 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 5: Plus being surrounded by other group members, of their class members, 265 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 5: was like any feeling like that got drowned out amongst 266 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 5: the vibrational, energetic chatter of our everyday life. So being 267 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 5: alone with her, none of those intervening influences had a 268 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 5: chance to suppress that. So I reached over and I 269 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 5: gave her a hug. And I think they may have 270 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 5: misquoted me or something. I've done several documentaries. But what 271 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 5: happened was she quickly said as I hugged her, that 272 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 5: she had asked though if she could hug me, and 273 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 5: he had said yes. I never had the foresight to 274 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 5: ask hug her, and I never thought that I would 275 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 5: never considered it, But I mean that to me illustrates 276 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 5: the level of conditioning of the group that Erica would 277 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 5: have the foresight to ask if it was okay to 278 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 5: give me a hug, just. 279 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: To have a hug. Yeah. Wow, What did it feel 280 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: like that hug? 281 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: Well, it was. 282 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 5: It was like the flood of everything that I had 283 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 5: suppressed toward her came rushing up and it was intense. 284 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 5: This was in my mind, but I didn't have the 285 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 5: courage to express it. But if she had said to me, 286 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 5: let's stop doing this, let's run away, let's not do 287 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 5: this anymore, I would have said, definitely, yes, I agree, 288 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 5: let's let's quit it. It's silly. But I always have 289 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 5: two minds. I had the conditioning of the group, so 290 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 5: did she. So I didn't let myself express that. 291 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: I didn't think she would be amenable to it. Anyway. 292 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: She probably wouldn't have. 293 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 3: Been Yeah, what a moment. Yeah, gosh, that's still in 294 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: the eighties. 295 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: Right, I think this was eighty five eight. 296 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 3: More years you were in You told a story in 297 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 3: the documentary about him, like insulting your masculinity. 298 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: That have been. 299 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 5: Shortly after Tea passed on. The goal was always to. 300 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: Let go of our masculinity. 301 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 5: Let go of our feminine to be in the middle, 302 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 5: to be androgynous, because members of the kingdom level of 303 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 5: human are androgenous. They have no sexuality, they have no 304 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 5: mammalian behavior. So this particular morning we were meeting in 305 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 5: the morning, I was at the front. Everyone was seated 306 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 5: in semicircles around him, and I raised my hand to 307 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 5: ask a question or maybe to an oversization. I don't 308 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 5: remember what it was, but I spoke up, and it 309 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 5: was shortly after we had gotten up, so my voice 310 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 5: was a little bit husky, It had a morning huskiness 311 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 5: to it. And those response was not to reply to me, 312 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 5: but to mimic my voice in a what's the word, 313 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 5: like mocking or well, it was mocking, but in a 314 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 5: way to emphasize the deepness of the voice to convey 315 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 5: a point to me. And my response was to feel 316 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 5: extremely humiliated, yeah, and feel this smoldering resentment and anger 317 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,239 Speaker 5: within me that I couldn't express because to do so 318 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 5: it would have been to question him, to disrespect him 319 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 5: as our teacher, as our leader. So I had this 320 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 5: tremendous internal conflict going on that I couldn't express in 321 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 5: any way. 322 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: You know, if I. 323 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 5: Were to have had a free feeling, like I could 324 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 5: have free expression of what I was feeling and thinking. 325 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: I would have Oh, I. 326 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 5: Would have used some explicits. Probably, How the F dare 327 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 5: you put me down in this way? You know, you 328 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 5: say you're a leader, you put yourself up there in 329 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 5: the front of the class, as a teacher, as somebody 330 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 5: having wisdom that you're trying to impart to us, and 331 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 5: yet you do this behavior of mocking and putting down. 332 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 5: But I couldn't say that, so I stuffed that emotion. 333 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 5: My understanding of that now is that when we suppress 334 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 5: our emotion, when we stuff away emotion that's unprocessed, it 335 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 5: ends up residing energetically in our bodies. It resides energetically 336 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 5: in our cellular structure and in our auric field, and 337 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 5: it can eventually turn into disease if we don't allow 338 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 5: it to express and we don't allow ourselves to process it. 339 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 2: Anyway, that's a tangent. 340 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 5: But over the course of the next few weeks, I 341 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 5: gradually developed a stutter, and the inability to really speak 342 00:18:53,960 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 5: clearly and fluently was as if this energetic suppression was 343 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 5: itself being expressed as the inability to express my own 344 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 5: thoughts freely, and I still have the residual of that. 345 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 5: I haven't freed myself from it completely, much better than 346 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 5: I have been. But that's another illustration of the dynamic 347 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 5: of cult leader over cult member. Wow. To me, looking back, 348 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 5: the result of Tea's passing had a detrimental effect on Dough. 349 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 5: He became more controlling, he became more ocd probably out 350 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,239 Speaker 5: of insecurity of being left with guiding the class on 351 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 5: his own. Regardless, that's what I saw, what I experienced. 352 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 5: The episode of him making fun of my voice, to me, 353 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 5: was an example of that stepping back from second looking 354 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 5: at it as a life coach, because I'm a life 355 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 5: coach right now, and as a life coach without compassion, 356 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 5: it would be a terrible life coach. Without empathy, I 357 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 5: would be a terrible life coach. Without active intuition. 358 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 2: It would be a terrible life coach. 359 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 5: And to me, in the exchange that we had that 360 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 5: day with Doh, he lacked intuitive awareness, he lacked empathy, 361 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 5: he lacked compassion. 362 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the final straw well? 363 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 5: I mentioned there were some red legs coming up along 364 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 5: the way toward the end. When was the idea of learning. 365 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: To fire firearms. 366 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 5: There's another one as well that they were first beginning 367 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 5: to talk about in nineteen ninety three, and that was 368 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 5: the idea of getting castrated, the men getting castrated right 369 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 5: because of the sexual impulses they wanted to lessen. They 370 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 5: thought that would help, And that was a red flag 371 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 5: to me. 372 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, were you still in the group when they began 373 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: or No? 374 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 5: Well, apparently I was, but I didn't know because they 375 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 5: didn't tell us. That was when the first one took place. 376 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: And that was the only There was only one, correct. 377 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 5: No, there was one, and then ultimately I think there 378 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 5: were six or seven. Wow, man who had castrations. 379 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: Wow. There was one guy who went first, what was 380 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: his name, Previdy. That was really sad. 381 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 3: I know, it broke my heart. And then the other 382 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 3: people following, and actually Doe was also castrated, right correct, Yeah, Wow, 383 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 3: so so heartbreaking. You're like, every little piece of identity 384 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 3: is just stripped away from all of you, just every 385 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 3: single possible thing, right down to your sex. I mean, gosh, 386 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 3: it's a miracle that you were able to break away. 387 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: That last year that I was in the group, I worked. 388 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 5: I mentioned I worked for Microsoft, and that got me 389 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 5: interested in software I started out as a receptionist, but 390 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 5: I learned to use Microsoft Excel. That was their brand 391 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 5: new spreadsheet program that Microsoft came out with. So I 392 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 5: worked for Microsoft for two years in the Dallas sales office. 393 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 2: My boss, who is. 394 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 5: The regional sales manager for the Southern Region, was being 395 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 5: promoted to national sales manager for Microsoft, and he had 396 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 5: asked me to go with him as his assistant. 397 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 2: Of course I couldn't because I was in. 398 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 4: The culton that I'll do it. 399 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. 400 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 5: If I had gone, they were offering stock options at 401 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 5: that point, so I would have been a millionaire. 402 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: Don't break my heart. 403 00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 404 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 5: So, anyway back to the year before I left. The 405 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 5: year before that year, I'd worked for this fellow in 406 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 5: Phoenix who was this software business owner, and he hired 407 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 5: me to kind of help get his head above water, 408 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 5: I found out later because he was drowning. 409 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: His customers were. 410 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 5: Not pleased, so he wanted to hire me to help 411 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 5: get things back on track with his customers. 412 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: He was a terrible, terrible customer service. 413 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 5: So I worked for him for a year until I 414 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 5: had enough and it was time for me to get 415 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 5: another job. 416 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: Doe said, yeah, go ahead, good, done the job. So 417 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 2: I did. 418 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 5: I got another job with one of his competitors, that 419 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 5: fellow who's terrible customer service. I got a job with 420 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 5: the woman who was also in the same business and 421 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 5: had been getting a lot of his customers, and now 422 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 5: she got one of his developers. She was a really 423 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 5: good boss to work for. So think of this juxtaposition. 424 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 5: I work for this woman. I was her first full 425 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 5: time employee. She treated me really, really well. We designed 426 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 5: software together. She gave me full rain on how I 427 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 5: wrote the software. When we had happy customers, which was 428 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 5: virtually all the time, she gave me full credit for 429 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 5: those happy customers. So I was treated really well. And 430 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 5: you know, my creative uses could flow in this software business, 431 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 5: whereas going back to the class at night on the weekends, 432 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 5: there's no uniqueness, no creativity allowed. You toe the line, 433 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 5: you follow procedures. 434 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: You know. 435 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 5: Doe's view of perfection was the Star Trek civilization known 436 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 5: as the Borg. I don't know, have you watched Star Trek. 437 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 5: You will be assimilated and resistance is feudal, and you're 438 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 5: part of the machine and you're a cog in the wheel. 439 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 5: So working for this woman made life bearable, right, even 440 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 5: though I suppressed the fact that it wasn't bearable, The 441 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 5: fact that I needed that, you know, the fact that 442 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 5: that made it bearable should have been a blaring message 443 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 5: to me, but it wasn't. So then at the end 444 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 5: of August, it was time to move again. We would 445 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 5: move every year or two, so we were moving to 446 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 5: San Diego. So I thought, Okay, no big deal. I've 447 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 5: quit my job plenty of times before. We just go 448 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 5: to the new place and get a new job, No 449 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 5: big deal. On the drive between Phoenix and San Diego, 450 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 5: I started having this feeling in the pit of my stomach. 451 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 5: I just can't be here anymore. I didn't intellectually understand that. 452 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 5: It was just this gnawing feeling that I couldn't ignore, 453 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 5: you know. So I had a check partner with me 454 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 5: in the car, and I talked to her about this, 455 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 5: and she suggested that I speak with Doe when we 456 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 5: got to San Diego. So I did, and he said, okay, 457 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 5: we I'll sleep on it and i'll talk to you 458 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 5: in the morning. 459 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 2: I slept on it still felt. 460 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 5: The same way in the morning, and then he said, okay, well, 461 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 5: let's have a meeting A little while later they called 462 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 5: me upstairs to Doe's quarters, and there were four other 463 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 5: classmates there with Doe, four of his trusted helpers, of 464 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 5: which Sawyer was one, Sir Odie, who had the first castration, 465 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 5: was another, and then Live Odie and Jane Odi, who 466 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 5: were the two who helped Doe with tea before she 467 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 5: passed on. And they were there kind of as a buffer, 468 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 5: like I was at one end of a worktable and 469 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 5: Doe was at the other, and the other four were 470 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 5: on the long end as a buffer between Doe and me. 471 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 5: It was kind of like an intervention, hmmm. To talk 472 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 5: some sense into me. He took a couple of different approaches. First, 473 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 5: he said, well, you haven't done anything to make me 474 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 5: displeased with your behavior or anything. 475 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 2: You're a good student. There's no reason for you to leave. 476 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 5: And I just kept turning to this gut knowing I 477 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 5: couldn't ignore, or I knew I had to follow it 478 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 5: no matter where it took me out. And even the 479 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 5: gut knowing went against my mental conditioning. Hmm, but I 480 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 5: had no choice but to follow this. So Dough changed 481 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 5: his approach a little bit, bringing up the thought that, well, 482 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 5: you know that the world will be plowed under when 483 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 5: we leave, and you know you will lose your life 484 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 5: along with all of the others as the civilization is 485 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 5: plowed under. They thought of the earth as a garden 486 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 5: for souls, and periodically the garden gets plowed under with 487 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 5: each new season. 488 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: So that was the analogy. 489 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 5: And because this crop of souls had resulted in so 490 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 5: few coming into this classroom, circumstance with ten do the 491 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 5: crop was bad, so that meant the crop had to 492 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 5: be plowed under. The civilization had to be plowed under 493 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 5: through earth changes like earthquakes or the switch of the 494 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 5: earth sacks, this resulting in huge earth changes. That's what 495 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 5: they thought. And it didn't matter to me what he said. 496 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 5: Whatever he said, I just kept returning to this gut 497 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 5: knowing and said, up, sorry, no matter where this leads me, 498 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,479 Speaker 5: even if I'm plout under whatever, I have to follow 499 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 5: this gut knowing. So he said, okay, well, we'll get 500 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 5: you a double bag packed up and we'll give you 501 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 5: one thousand bucks and you can get a bus ticket 502 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 5: or a plane ticket wherever you want to go, and 503 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 5: we'll take you and that'll be that. It's not like 504 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 5: they wanted me there against my will because that would 505 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 5: have been disruptive to everyone else's focus. 506 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 3: Wow, that's actually very surprising. I feel like generally the 507 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 3: stories are you know, kind of trying to bully people 508 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 3: into staying. 509 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: So. 510 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety three, so sorry. In nineteen ninety seven, 511 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 3: the remaining members of Heaven's Gate have their exit planned. 512 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: They believe that there's a flying saucer hiding behind the 513 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 3: Hailbop comet, and they believe they're going to teleport to it. 514 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 3: So thirty nine people commit suicide together in Rancho Santa Fe, California, 515 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 3: by taking apple sauce or putting the lace with the 516 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: deadly drug. And it's, you know, just such a tragedy. 517 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: How did you find out and how did you feel? 518 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: Well? 519 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 5: I was living in white Rock, British Columbia, which is 520 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 5: right by the border, and I was working in Bellingham, Washington, 521 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 5: so I you know, lived in Canada, worked in the US, 522 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 5: and I was coming home from work at night and 523 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 5: I heard a radio report on the news as I 524 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 5: was driving home, and it said that a group of 525 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 5: all male monks had been found in San Diego to 526 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 5: have committed suicide. You know, it was a breaking story 527 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 5: at that point, and I knew it was. Chills ran 528 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 5: up and down my spot. I knew it was then. 529 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 5: And then the story developed over the next few days 530 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 5: and came out the day the police thought that they 531 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 5: were all male because they all have the same haircut. 532 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 5: I appeared on the Larry King Live TV program news program. 533 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 5: This was April first, so it was my April for 534 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 5: Fools joke. I was on, Sawyer was on, and another 535 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 5: fellow who was an ex member who had left before 536 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 5: I had left, was also on. All three of us 537 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 5: were ex members. They flew me from Bellingham to Seattle 538 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 5: for the satellite uplink, so there was a clip in 539 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 5: the HBO documentary of me with the long hair, and 540 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 5: that was from Larry King Live. So from that the 541 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 5: local newspapers started calling me. My phone didn't stop ringing. 542 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 5: I didn't want to give any local interviews. I was heartbroken, 543 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 5: and yet, even at that point, after having been out 544 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 5: of the group for three and a half years, I 545 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 5: felt like they had the right to live their life 546 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 5: as they wanted, and they had to write to take 547 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 5: their lives as they saw a fit. I wrote a 548 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 5: letter to all of my coworkers in the company where 549 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 5: I worked, because they I was aware several people had 550 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 5: seen the Larry King Live episode, so I wanted to 551 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 5: stem the tide of the rumor mill and just let 552 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 5: people know, you know, what was going on. 553 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 2: It's it. 554 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 5: I lost many, many friends who who I shared a 555 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 5: great deal with. Yeah, not just my cousin, not just 556 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 5: my ex girlfriend. I was heartbroken, I can imagine. 557 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and your last conversation with Erica was when you. 558 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 5: Were leaving, right. It was two days after I left, 559 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 5: So she had called me at my parents. I was 560 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 5: staying with my parents in Calgary because it's where I 561 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 5: went when I left the group, and you know, I 562 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 5: knew she would have had somebody else on the line, 563 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 5: a check partner on the other extension while she was 564 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 5: talking to me, But she implored me to come back 565 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 5: to the group, repeating some of the things that Doe 566 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 5: hit said of. 567 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: You know, there's no reason for you to be out there. 568 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 2: You belong here. 569 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 5: I have no way of knowing whether or not Erica 570 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 5: had suggested to Doe that she called me, or if 571 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 5: Doe had suggested to Erica that she called me, But 572 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 5: through much of that conversation, Erica was weeping. 573 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: She was. 574 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 5: Emotionally upset that I had left, and because Erica wasn't 575 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 5: in San Diego when I left, we drove to San 576 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 5: Diego in three shifts, and Erica was back in Phoenix 577 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 5: cleaning the house and getting it ready to relinquish to 578 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 5: the renters. So I left without saying goodbye to her. 579 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 5: That was tough for her. But one thing I said 580 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 5: to her was I need to stay out here for 581 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 5: a while. I need to follow this gut knowing, and 582 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 5: I feel like it would be really helpful if you 583 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 5: spent time outside the colt as well. And I didn't 584 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 5: call it a call outside the group. She didn't say anything, 585 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 5: and I don't know if she would have wanted to 586 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 5: say anything, but she would have known that that would 587 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 5: have been heard by the person on the other line, right. 588 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 5: But the conversation lasted about three minutes and that was 589 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 5: that was it. 590 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 2: We said goodbye. 591 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 5: Wow. 592 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: That was the last time I spoke with her. 593 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: Wow. Well, I'm just so sorry that you lost so 594 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: many people that you love. Must have been really hard. 595 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: Can we talk about that? Yeah? I want to talk 596 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 2: about it on two different levels, yes, please. One is. 597 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 5: It's the level of heartbreak, you know, A human experience 598 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 5: of loss. I experienced that in a real way, and 599 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 5: I didn't expect now to get emotional about it, but 600 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 5: obviously it still impacts me. But the other thing that 601 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 5: I realize is, and I'm not expecting others to buy 602 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 5: into this, but my view of life is that we 603 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 5: do live succeeding lives. Reincarnation is a real thing. In 604 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 5: between incarnations, there's what's called this pre birth planning, in 605 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 5: which I and my soul group map out what I 606 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 5: want to experience in my life and who will play 607 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 5: different parts in that lifetime and what part I will 608 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 5: play in my lifetime in others lives. There's a working 609 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 5: together to determine how we will experience the lessons we 610 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 5: want to learn at the sole level during that life. So, 611 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 5: with that as background, if that is a real thing, 612 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 5: if that pre birth planning is a real thing, I 613 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 5: and every member of the Heaven's Gate cult planned their 614 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 5: participation in the cult, including the option to leave or 615 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 5: to stay to the end and take their lives in suicide, 616 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 5: because of the lessons that they wanted to learn, and 617 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,760 Speaker 5: it extends even to their family members experiencing the loss 618 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 5: of them. The lessons they wanted to learn at the 619 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 5: sole level through that loss. 620 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: What do you think your lesson was? 621 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: One of my. 622 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 5: Biggest lessons through all of this is to trust my 623 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 5: inner knowing above everything else. Follow that knowing, no matter 624 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 5: what anything outside is telling me, in the face of 625 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 5: any onslaught of conditioning or peer pressure or societal norms. 626 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 5: Follow what I know. It's like the God connection within me. 627 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 5: It's not my mind, it's my heart and my gut knowing. 628 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 5: You know that our heart has a much larger energy 629 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 5: field than our brain, and our heart has neurons. The 630 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 5: heart poetically, time after time there are poems that talk 631 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 5: about the knowing of the heart, and it's true. The 632 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 5: heart has tremendous knowledge. Their hearts are connected to every 633 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 5: other heart. That's how we are all one us through 634 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 5: our heart. 635 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: Well, I think that that's a beautiful lesson me too. 636 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: Who what a story? Yeah? I mean, how are you doing? Now? 637 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: How's your life? 638 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: Well, my life is perfectly imperfect. 639 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 5: Started Van Life in August of twenty nineteen. 640 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: Do you live in the van? Are you traveling around? 641 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah? 642 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 1: What's your setup? 643 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 4: Like? 644 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 2: Well, it's not a big van, but it's got everything 645 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 2: I need. 646 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 5: I have a seven gallon freshwater tank and a seven 647 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 5: gallon greywater tank and a submersible pump. So I have 648 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 5: running water, running cold water. My mother's gift to me 649 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 5: through her passing in twenty eighteen. 650 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 2: What's this van? 651 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 5: Through her inheritance, I could buy this van. So thank 652 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 5: you mother. 653 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: So now you get to be adventurous and do whatever 654 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: you want and follow your heart exactly. That's awesome. Well, man, 655 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for talking to us. This 656 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: has been really just wonderful, tuly. Thank you so much. 657 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to say or mention or 658 00:38:59,160 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: shout out? 659 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: Well? 660 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 5: I have mentioned to many people that I was writing 661 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 5: a book. I started the book in twenty fifteen, and 662 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 5: the book has kind of languished over the last several months. 663 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 3: Well, we're all languishing over the last several months, let's 664 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 3: be honest. 665 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 5: But I would like to get it out and get 666 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 5: it published. I have a publisher that. 667 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 2: I really like lined up. 668 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 5: I just need to get it done. It's about halfway done. 669 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 5: I'm a little bit overwhelmed by it. 670 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: Writing is a challenge. I really feel you. 671 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 4: There Ba by day, bird by Bird, what's that an 672 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 4: Lamont book? Bird by bird right, just sentenced by sentence. 673 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, just as much as you can handle every day. 674 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 3: But I have faith in you, and I absolutely want 675 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 3: to buy your book, So you have to finish it, amen. 676 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. 677 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 5: I got to get it at the door, and my 678 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 5: publisher agrees. I just need to get the frickin thing 679 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 5: out of the door. 680 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: So that's how I feel about my script. Awesome. Well 681 00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: do you have any social media? 682 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm on Facebook. You can just search for my 683 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 5: name Frank leiferd Lyford. I'm on Instagram. I have a website. 684 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 5: It's called Facilitating You LETTERU dot com. 685 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: Well, thanks again so much, Frank. 686 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 2: Look, I've enjoyed talking to you both. 687 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: Wow. 688 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 3: Crazy, I've already asked you if you thought that you 689 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 3: would join Heaven's Skate Megan, so instead, I feel like 690 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 3: an interesting thing we could potentially discuss here is Yeah. 691 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 3: He said something about how it was what they wanted, 692 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 3: they all wanted to do the thing that they did, 693 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 3: And I guess what I'm wondering is, do you think 694 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 3: that they could technically consent to that to suicide given 695 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 3: the circumstances that they were in. 696 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 4: Holy Molly, that's such a hard question. I mean, I 697 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 4: love in the documentary that one guy's sister do you 698 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 4: remember her who was actually on Star Trek? 699 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: Do you remember this? 700 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 2: No? 701 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of scrubbed through. 702 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, one of the guy's sisters was actually on Star Trek, 703 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 4: which is so ironic because it was a very Star 704 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 4: Trek kind of vibe going out, and she was just like, 705 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 4: I trust my brother, I trust his intuition, I trust 706 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 4: his knowing, and I miss him. But he's not an idiot. 707 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 4: He's a beautiful person and he's a smart person, and 708 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 4: he made a choice. So wow, you know, I don't 709 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 4: it's hard, like, if somebody's brainwashed, can they make that 710 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 4: big of a decision? 711 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 2: No? 712 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,800 Speaker 1: But also this one's a complex. 713 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 4: One, you know, because it felt like the group was 714 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 4: kind of it was kind of figuring out what to 715 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 4: do right. 716 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 3: Well, the moment that struck me as really interesting from 717 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 3: last episode was when he said that Doe wanted to 718 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 3: give up on the mission after t died, and everyone 719 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 3: else was like, no, we have to keep something. But 720 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 3: the thing is they were all indoctrinated. They were completely indoctrinated. Yeah, 721 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 3: and I don't, like, I don't believe that you can 722 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 3: consent to sex with someone who is above you in 723 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 3: the chain of power when you are heavily indoctrinated to 724 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 3: believe that they're an authority over you. So why would 725 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 3: I believe that you can consent to suicide when the 726 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 3: person above you is saying that that's what needs to 727 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 3: be done. I mean, it is a really fascinating debate 728 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 3: because I don't know much about the I don't even 729 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 3: know what you call the movement, but I don't know 730 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 3: much about the movement for like letting adults decide when 731 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 3: to end their lives, but for me, I would just 732 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 3: like I would hope that that decision would be coming from, 733 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 3: you know, an ailment that is inevitably going to end 734 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 3: in pain for them, and not because of a promise 735 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 3: that's being made to them by somebody who doesn't know 736 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 3: what they're talking about. And you know, and obviously who knows. 737 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 3: Maybe we wake up one day and Heaven's Gate was 738 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 3: right totally time. Yeah, But that's the judgment that I'm making. 739 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 3: My personal takeaway is that if you're indoctrinated and your 740 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 3: leader is telling you to kill yourself, then you're not 741 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 3: that's not real consent to that. 742 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: Actually hear that, I guess we'll have to just leave 743 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: it at that. 744 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 4: Well huh, heavy stuff, good stuff though. Yeah, thank you 745 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 4: guys for listening. We just want to remind. 746 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: You to follow your gut, watch out for flags, and 747 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: never never try off to me. Bye,