Speaker 1: Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. Easton.
Speaker 1: I'm really bummed because I missed you in Nashville. You
Speaker 1: were at Is it true that Ben Higgins got married?
Speaker 1: Ben Higgins got married? The Bachelor tied the knot, finally
Speaker 1: tied the knot? Um? So where was it at? Tell
Speaker 1: us everything? It was at Reba McIntire's um former home her.
Speaker 1: It's Lebanon, rodeo drill. I've been saying Lebanon for a week.
Speaker 1: We actually ins in your defense, Eastern Sorry, in Easten defense.
Speaker 1: How's the bote slip um? In Easton's defense? Is it
Speaker 1: not Lebonon? Oh, it's Lebanon. That's so I've called it Lebanon. Wow,
Speaker 1: Leon says the one person from National Exactly, I should
Speaker 1: ask me next time Lebanon go on man. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: don't know how much else I was mispronouncing now, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it was this beautiful. You know, it was on like
Speaker 1: a body of water. And I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was a lake or just are a bond, but it was.
Speaker 1: It was gorgeous. There's like four hundred people there, hundred people,
Speaker 1: four people all this closest friends and family. They were
Speaker 1: all of Bachelor Nation, all of Bachelor Nations people, I
Speaker 1: don't what how many people do you have your wedding?
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Like I don't know, hud, it's expensive to
Speaker 1: get married. How did you I had mine? My inlaws
Speaker 1: made me invite like everyone I didn't even know. I mean,
Speaker 1: there there was some drama with with with with you know,
Speaker 1: not inviting certain people. But at the same time, like
Speaker 1: when you are paying for the wedding, like who's paying
Speaker 1: for four hundred people? Like that was like coming out
Speaker 1: of my account. So I'm like, we're cutting the line man,
Speaker 1: like under eighty, Like, don't under it because it's like
Speaker 1: it's expensive four hundred people. Oh yeah. It was so
Speaker 1: crazy and I was really it was not televised because
Speaker 1: I would have understood that. I'm right, People magazine got
Speaker 1: the exclusive. There are a lot of flowers, a lot
Speaker 1: of flowers, so just how many how much money four
Speaker 1: hundred people of flowers would be to feel like I was,
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was a high budget. Holy Holy. I
Speaker 1: thought there was gonna be like a sit down dinner thing.
Speaker 1: So I was all nervous because I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: The only people I know from here are bachelor people
Speaker 1: and they don't want to talk to me, you know.
Speaker 1: They did, they were very nice, but they didn't do
Speaker 1: a sit down dinner. They did like a buffet thing
Speaker 1: and then this big hall and everyone just kind of
Speaker 1: roamed around and you could get like pizza and pasta
Speaker 1: and just kind of hang out. That's because there was
Speaker 1: four hundred people. I sit down dinner for four Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: this was the way to do it. And everyone had
Speaker 1: a really good time. There's lots of dancing. The band
Speaker 1: was great. Ben and Jess looked studying. Ben had thirteen groomsmen,
Speaker 1: which I thought was really funny and cool. But when
Speaker 1: they came out, it was like a clown car, like
Speaker 1: the just more people kept coming down. She too, she
Speaker 1: had like eighty. It was it was uneven. So I'm
Speaker 1: like a fan of that. I like the evenist. There's
Speaker 1: no way I could do that, really, that would drive
Speaker 1: Thinking about that gives me anxiety. Why just looking it
Speaker 1: up there? Uneven? I can't like that really, yes, because
Speaker 1: I think there's like I mean, I don't have like
Speaker 1: I have a very small queendom, so like and I
Speaker 1: know in the past, like someone would want more, and
Speaker 1: I'm like well, like I don't have like I'm going
Speaker 1: to start. I'm pulling people from like from from second
Speaker 1: people to be don't you remember me I went to
Speaker 1: kindergarten with you and be in my wedding. Thanks. But
Speaker 1: I mean now I feel like it's kind of cool
Speaker 1: and people are like screw it, like I'm going to
Speaker 1: have and now like I feel like i'd have like
Speaker 1: a queendom up there. You don't have a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I would have a lot of people. And I'm here
Speaker 1: for it because now everyone's like rooting for happiness. Oh
Speaker 1: I can't wait to plan this, wait for fun. But
Speaker 1: like it really that would bother you, like if it
Speaker 1: was set like I mean, I'll get over it. If
Speaker 1: you can't, if you were a future groom cannot come
Speaker 1: up with the same amount, I'll get over it. Oh God,
Speaker 1: I cant even think about that. I was gonna ask,
Speaker 1: is that going through your mind? Like, are you already
Speaker 1: picking up bridesmaids for okay, mark for the next one?
Speaker 1: I mean no, but like just again, it's just such
Speaker 1: so weird. Like I was having this conversation with Katherine,
Speaker 1: I was talking about something I'm like, I have not
Speaker 1: like had a boyfriend, not saying I have a boyfriend.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like I'm not saying anything, but I'm
Speaker 1: just saying. What I'm saying is what I'm saying. What
Speaker 1: I'm saying is is like, like what are you saying?
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is it's just a very weird thing,
Speaker 1: like to be you know, married for however seven something
Speaker 1: year or you know six seven and seven together and
Speaker 1: it's like to them have to go do like never
Speaker 1: thinking that you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna meet someone's
Speaker 1: parents or I'm gonna they're gonna meet my kids or
Speaker 1: like someone else. It's like a very it's just strange.
Speaker 1: And so I would never think, given my Elizabeth Taylor
Speaker 1: background of marriages, that I would even think about it.
Speaker 1: But now here's something. Laugh all you want, bitches, He's like,
Speaker 1: but here's the thing. Now Now I'm like, I feel
Speaker 1: like because everyone is so invested in my love life,
Speaker 1: from friends to listeners, like I want to invite the
Speaker 1: entire Wine down like viewership, like I think we all
Speaker 1: are like rooting for like you're gonna have like a
Speaker 1: hundred and thousands and thousand people I'm here for that.
Speaker 1: That would be so funny. That would be so much fun.
Speaker 1: Like I want an open bar for everybody. I don't
Speaker 1: know the money, but for exactly what I'm saying, I've
Speaker 1: don't have the money for it, but like if we
Speaker 1: can get sponsors, if we can, like you know, like
Speaker 1: figure it out, making a live podcast kind of thing,
Speaker 1: podcasting while you gave birth. Just can't. I can't feel
Speaker 1: my lives. I remember where I was listening to that podcast.
Speaker 1: Where were you? I was in my car coming out
Speaker 1: of therapy. Then my life is good. I think she's dying.
Speaker 1: Table Yeah. She tells someone that I'm a hypochondriac. Am
Speaker 1: I hypochondriac? I didn't say the words you're a hypochondriac.
Speaker 1: I said, you think you're going to die? Very often?
Speaker 1: I do. It's true a hypochondriac. She does, like often
Speaker 1: she asked, am I going to die? I do ask?
Speaker 1: I take three Adavia while I die? And the person
Speaker 1: that I said this too, was like, do you truly
Speaker 1: think you're gonna die? Or are you just saying that?
Speaker 1: I think I have a fear of it because the kids,
Speaker 1: so like every time I get on a plane, that's
Speaker 1: fair every time, I you know, but I mean obviously
Speaker 1: like driving is. But and then I'm like, you're looking
Speaker 1: down at my phone. I'm like, what am I doing? Like?
Speaker 1: But I think I have a fear of the unknown,
Speaker 1: of what is, Like like when I had when I
Speaker 1: walked around for step Strap for a month, I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm dying of cancer, like and I'm afraid of like
Speaker 1: the what what those those things that could happen. I
Speaker 1: think that's normal. I would have felt that way. I mean,
Speaker 1: out really fast time out. This girl Catherine will do
Speaker 1: an entire body scan to make sure that she's not
Speaker 1: dying of something. So like, here's the difference. I just
Speaker 1: like to know what's going on. But if I'm in
Speaker 1: a situation like taking three ad bills, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to ask Joe about very advill But I'm saying I
Speaker 1: think it was fair for you to be scared about.
Speaker 1: But I did ask, thank you very much. That was terrifying.
Speaker 1: But I did ask about taking me in moxicillin with
Speaker 1: wine because I'm obviously still in moxicillans. And it also
Speaker 1: did not matter how many of the people that she
Speaker 1: loves and trust the most tell her she's fine. She
Speaker 1: has to have the fans tell her if it's really
Speaker 1: fine or not. I just like, you know, we asked Google,
Speaker 1: did anyone tell you you would die? They said, and
Speaker 1: I did. I then made my choice. You were there
Speaker 1: with me. I'm proud of you. I didn't know they
Speaker 1: told you that you couldn't do it. Oh oh man, um, well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you had fun in Lebanon. What is it Lebanon?
Speaker 1: And and you know, I went to Nashville for like
Speaker 1: the first because I came to Nashville once before to
Speaker 1: hook up the microphones room. But I didn't go to
Speaker 1: like Nashville proper, you know, like I went to like
Speaker 1: I went down Broadway and did all that. I went
Speaker 1: to the Country Music Hall of Fame. I really play time.
Speaker 1: So you've been here twice now and I've not seen Yes,
Speaker 1: I've been in the state of Tennessee twice now. And
Speaker 1: he did ask to hang not for the wedding. I
Speaker 1: saw it on Instagram Story of my life. That's hard.
Speaker 1: By the way. I know we have a guest joining
Speaker 1: us soon, but it's something when you see something on
Speaker 1: Instagram that I'm not saying that. You know, she wasn't
Speaker 1: actually expecting it to text Easton, but like Fomo when
Speaker 1: some because there was someone that did come in for
Speaker 1: the wedding that I was like, Oh, I'm kind of bump.
Speaker 1: They didn't reach out to me. It's interesting what what like?
Speaker 1: What that? Like? What is that? What is it for
Speaker 1: you that? What social media does? You just feel left
Speaker 1: out and you might make assumptions and you might like
Speaker 1: feel away, But I think social media contributes to that
Speaker 1: for sure. If we'd have social media, I wouldn't know, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because Easton did text me, was
Speaker 1: like I'd like to see you, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's so cool. And then when I saw like what
Speaker 1: it was, I was like, oh, why didn't that person
Speaker 1: text me? And She's like yeah, kind of like it
Speaker 1: was the thought you wanted to see me. It's like that,
Speaker 1: like I don't know, just does that make me? Yeah?
Speaker 1: You know, I get that and something. So Katherine and
Speaker 1: I were exchanging d M s, and something I really
Speaker 1: appreciated from her was she's like, how long are you
Speaker 1: in talent? And I'm like, Oh, we're just doing this wedding.
Speaker 1: Then We're going back like oh, have fun. And I
Speaker 1: feel like if I had said I'm in town for
Speaker 1: until Tuesday, you would have been like, let's hang out.
Speaker 1: I like to think that would have happened. Would have
Speaker 1: I was going to see if you wanted to go
Speaker 1: get coffee, Little coffee day. It would have been so fun.
Speaker 1: But then I was like, Okay, we'll have fun. You're
Speaker 1: got one more night here. Well, we're gonna come back
Speaker 1: real soon because I'm in love with that place. It's
Speaker 1: so great different time, it's so fun. I was. I
Speaker 1: was texting Tanya rad two and I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, you're in Franklin, And she's like, that is
Speaker 1: the most precious little town, Like it looks like it
Speaker 1: looked like her and her boyfriend had a great time too, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm she's someone, for example, that I
Speaker 1: have been so rooting for, so like to see her
Speaker 1: so happy after kind of the you know struggle that struggles,
Speaker 1: but like that that you know, finding the one, and
Speaker 1: it's just been like, I'm it's so nice to see
Speaker 1: her so happy. It's so exciting. She's so happy and
Speaker 1: he's such a cool guy. I'm just they're they're the best.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy for her. Nah, I love it. Well,
Speaker 1: we have um a guest joining us um Katherine do
Speaker 1: you want to give the rundown on this, uh this guest? Okay,
Speaker 1: so we have and lithe I'm really excited about this one. UM,
Speaker 1: tell me more. Why Well, because she has So it's
Speaker 1: like a support group where you get on it's a
Speaker 1: support group and it's for betrayal, trauma recovery and a
Speaker 1: podcast and all this good stuff. So it's basically for
Speaker 1: people who have had, you know, trauma from abusive relationships physically, emotionally, UM,
Speaker 1: sexual trauma. Very very interesting. So yeah, so is she
Speaker 1: is she here? We have her in the waiting room,
Speaker 1: so let's um, let's take a break and then we'll
Speaker 1: get her on. Oh great, Hello, Hi, Hi Anne? Hi,
Speaker 1: how are you? I'm great? How are you good? I'm Janna.
Speaker 1: This is Catherine. Hi, how are you? And you um
Speaker 1: your host of the Betrareal Trauma Recovery podcast, which I'm
Speaker 1: very excited to start listening to. UM. And also you
Speaker 1: you offer daily online support groups for women victims of
Speaker 1: emotional abuse. UM. I'm just curious before we kind of
Speaker 1: get into it, what is your background and how you
Speaker 1: got into what you're now doing, Like was it from
Speaker 1: a personal experience or I just I would love to
Speaker 1: know that side first. Yeah, So I worked in the
Speaker 1: porn Addiction UM porn anti porn movement for about ten
Speaker 1: years and then my ex got arrested, well he was
Speaker 1: my husband at the time, and UM. At that point
Speaker 1: I quit all my jobs. I had been working with
Speaker 1: other anti porn slash porn recovery UM communities, quit my
Speaker 1: job and started studying abuse a lot. And then I
Speaker 1: started seeing the overlay of these two things and thought, oh,
Speaker 1: we need to be right here in the middle and
Speaker 1: talk about this. So I started podcasting about that aspect
Speaker 1: of it, and then women from all over the world
Speaker 1: started contacting me, and then we got coaches and it
Speaker 1: just kind of grew from there. So that's sort of
Speaker 1: my I have a master's degree in education, so personal
Speaker 1: experience plus was your ex also abusive? Uh huh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: emotionally and psychologically abusive, which also is can be the like,
Speaker 1: it's all awful, but it's just that for some reason
Speaker 1: has such a hold. Yeah. And in terms of the
Speaker 1: pornography use, UM, I had told him that are my relationship,
Speaker 1: that my sexual boundaries were no porn use, monogamy, you know,
Speaker 1: stuff like that, which he happily agreed. To said that
Speaker 1: that's what he wanted as well. And then um later
Speaker 1: found out he was using porn, which people don't realize
Speaker 1: the sexual coercion because I didn't I didn't have the
Speaker 1: ability to consent under those circumstances. And so, um that
Speaker 1: those are the types of things that I really like
Speaker 1: talking about. Is that to him, he's got this addiction
Speaker 1: and he has his problems and they're caused by whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, and so to him it's like this is
Speaker 1: these are the reasons for it. But to the victims,
Speaker 1: the reasons don't really matter. The actual thing that they're
Speaker 1: experiencing a sexual coercion, The actual thing they're experiencing a
Speaker 1: psychological abuse if they don't know what their reality is,
Speaker 1: if they don't know you know, oh, i'm I'm I'm
Speaker 1: with a husband who has a double life, you know
Speaker 1: that type of thing. Um, If he's looking straight at
Speaker 1: her face and saying, no, I don't use parn I'm
Speaker 1: not having an affair. Um, it's not just him acting
Speaker 1: out in this addiction. It's also psychological abuse because she's like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no way for her to fare it
Speaker 1: out reality in that case, And um, so that that's
Speaker 1: the betrayal traumor recovery kind of lives there and what
Speaker 1: that actually means to a victim and how how that's
Speaker 1: going to affect her and her self esteem and her
Speaker 1: life and stuff like that. So it's more coming at
Speaker 1: these issues from the woman the victims point of view
Speaker 1: than the addics point of view. I have a question
Speaker 1: around that, UM, And I like, I have to be
Speaker 1: really careful with how I word certain things. UM. So
Speaker 1: I I'm recently divorced an addict UM and you know,
Speaker 1: multiple affairs, and I think, UM, in my experience where
Speaker 1: I have had a tough time with UM, the with
Speaker 1: it with all of that is is where for all
Speaker 1: those years just being made to feel crazy right, um
Speaker 1: and to this day still not feeling like, um that
Speaker 1: I'm still made to feel that way. Yeah, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, I've sat with my theoris and like,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, well, how does he not get that
Speaker 1: he literally lied every day? Right? And it's a it's
Speaker 1: like that it's at that weird. But then then I'm
Speaker 1: the crazy Like it's it's very like I'm I'm having
Speaker 1: like the that's like been the hardest thing for me too,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, how does he hate me? Right? When
Speaker 1: that was the life that like I was just you know,
Speaker 1: it was an unsteady ground effort. I was lied too daily,
Speaker 1: Like it was like a constant like warfare of lies,
Speaker 1: of manipulation and you know, deceit and miss you know,
Speaker 1: distrust and like it. So it's like I'm trying to
Speaker 1: like grieve and grow and heal and learn, but yet
Speaker 1: I'm still trapped in certain areas around I think, more
Speaker 1: so than the sub more than just like the manipulation
Speaker 1: and abuse in the gas lighting. So DARVO is when
Speaker 1: you deny the abuse and then you attack the victim,
Speaker 1: and then there's r v O for DARVO, and then
Speaker 1: you reverse the victim and offender role. So essentially, like
Speaker 1: let's take a big case like Bill Cosby. That's a
Speaker 1: easy one. So you've got multiple victims coming forth saying, hey,
Speaker 1: this is what happened, right, and instead of admitting to
Speaker 1: it and apologizing and taking accountability and going to prison,
Speaker 1: justify believe because of what he did, he denies what happened,
Speaker 1: and he attacks the victims and then reverses the victim
Speaker 1: and offender role and says, actually I'm the victim. I'm
Speaker 1: the one who is being harmed because these women are
Speaker 1: just trying to get money from me, or they're just
Speaker 1: trying to ruin my reputation or whatever they're doing. Right, So,
Speaker 1: I think in them in the general sense when it
Speaker 1: comes to psychological abuse and emotional abuse, that's where women
Speaker 1: get so confused because the abuser is never going to
Speaker 1: admit there an abuser, and they're going to accuse the
Speaker 1: victim of abuse. Also, they're going to say that the
Speaker 1: victims response to the abuse like whoa, like these are
Speaker 1: all the things that happened. Then they are gonna just say, no,
Speaker 1: she's crazy, that didn't happen, those things aren't true, you
Speaker 1: know whatever, to try and avoid accountability. So that is
Speaker 1: part of the abuse, and that's not often recognized. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's hardly ever recognized. Instead, I would say the general
Speaker 1: population and your running the mill, not not your therapist particularly,
Speaker 1: I just mean therapists in general. They'll be they'll hear
Speaker 1: his side of the story and her side of the story,
Speaker 1: and then they'll think, and again, this is assuming the
Speaker 1: males the perpetrator and the females the victim. And I
Speaker 1: know that's not always the case, but because that's the
Speaker 1: population I work with, I'll talk in that gender segregated
Speaker 1: way today. But you've got they think that the truth
Speaker 1: is somewhere in the middle, and the truth is not
Speaker 1: in the middle. The truth is that the victim is
Speaker 1: telling the truth and the perpetrator is trying to get
Speaker 1: out of accountability. And so the stories he's going to
Speaker 1: tell in and of themselves are psychological abuse. So he's
Speaker 1: able to manipulate in gaslight, therapists, clergy, friends, family, everyone
Speaker 1: around you in order and they don't know it, but
Speaker 1: they're unwittingly also abusing the victim by telling her she's crazy,
Speaker 1: or you're blowing this out of purport shian or what.
Speaker 1: He's an addict and now you're going to say you
Speaker 1: were sexually coerced, right, or now you're gonna say this
Speaker 1: about about him, And so I think it just gets
Speaker 1: so muddled that it's hard to see that all of
Speaker 1: that is abuse. And unfortunately, in the pornography addiction recovery community,
Speaker 1: the abuse isn't really talked about as much as perhaps
Speaker 1: the reason why he's an addict. You know, he was
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, or he feel shame or you know,
Speaker 1: some something like that. Um, And I just think that
Speaker 1: that discredits victims so much because you know, victims feel shame,
Speaker 1: Victims have had a hard time, victims, haven't you know,
Speaker 1: victims have been through difficult things. And we don't cheat
Speaker 1: on our husbands, we don't use porn. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just take a step
Speaker 1: back for a minute and just kind of consider this
Speaker 1: whole picture of the fog of all of this and
Speaker 1: what's really going on, because there are plenty of men
Speaker 1: who have had that fildhoods who have felt shame, who
Speaker 1: have um, you know done. I'll had had a hard
Speaker 1: time in all different kinds of ways, and they cope
Speaker 1: with it, maybe by eating ice cream, or maybe they
Speaker 1: cope with it by going for a run. They don't
Speaker 1: all not all men cope with shame by having an affair.
Speaker 1: They don't, and everybody feels shamed. So I think that
Speaker 1: the pornography addiction recovery world does not help victims understand
Speaker 1: the truth of what they're really experiencing. And that is
Speaker 1: why I do what I do to try and shed
Speaker 1: light on the abuse that's happening so that women can
Speaker 1: get to safety sooner, um, regardless of how their situation
Speaker 1: turns out, right, I mean, maybe he'll be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is abusive. I'm going to stop, you know. But UM,
Speaker 1: I think it's important to really label it accurately. So
Speaker 1: the abuser, whatever per cent of the time, is usually
Speaker 1: not going to acknowledge that they're an abuser. They're going
Speaker 1: to gaslight, which is obviously a huge word now days. UM,
Speaker 1: So how do you suggest, I mean, I know you
Speaker 1: have these groups and you have, but what is your
Speaker 1: recommendation for people for these victims to realize they're being
Speaker 1: gas lit, to realize that it's abuse, and to set
Speaker 1: boundaries to not allow that. That is really really hard. UM.
Speaker 1: I think the hardest position to be in would be
Speaker 1: the new wife of this guy. UM and I let's
Speaker 1: talk about that for just a second. Then we can
Speaker 1: step back to maybe the original victim if we want
Speaker 1: to call it that, or the first victim. But what UM,
Speaker 1: A new victim will here, like the second wife. Let's
Speaker 1: call her fer a minute, healed, she was unhealthy. Um,
Speaker 1: she she's just a gold digger. Maybe I'll say that,
Speaker 1: maybe she'll say, Maybe he'll say, I it's true. I'm
Speaker 1: not perfect. I've got problems. I hadn't a fair I
Speaker 1: looked at something like that. He might say something like that,
Speaker 1: but like she can't forgive. She's just really bitter and angry.
Speaker 1: She hates men, she's a lesbian. They might hear that, um,
Speaker 1: they might hear um all kinds of things, right, And
Speaker 1: so this new victim doesn't realize that this is abuse
Speaker 1: in and of itself, that she's already being abused, and
Speaker 1: she thinks to herself, I'm not controlling. I'm kind and understand.
Speaker 1: You know, she didn't understand me. She was controlling. Whatever.
Speaker 1: I'm not controlling. I'm understanding, like I I empathize, Oh
Speaker 1: I get it, like, oh, you went through this hard time.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. So they start out this relationship not
Speaker 1: they don't know it, but not feeling safe to say, hmm,
Speaker 1: you know, I actually am not controlling, but I don't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with this situation because if they speak up,
Speaker 1: then he'll be like, oh, don't be controlling, like my ex.
Speaker 1: Don't be you know, Oh you're just like super high
Speaker 1: maintenance woman or something, right, And so that is actually
Speaker 1: where that abuse starts. But it's so subtle and it
Speaker 1: feels like he's saying, you're amazing, You're incredible. I know
Speaker 1: you would never be like her, and that is a
Speaker 1: real big trap for women. So um, I don't know
Speaker 1: how to recognize it at first, but one of the
Speaker 1: biggest red flags are those types of things that a
Speaker 1: man might say about a woman. Um. And one easy
Speaker 1: way which nobody does because they think this X is crazy, right,
Speaker 1: they think his former girlfriend is cuckoo, so they're like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk to her because she's wacko
Speaker 1: because of what he told me. So UM, one way
Speaker 1: is to talk to that woman to say, that's really interesting,
Speaker 1: now that we're getting more serious, I'd actually like to
Speaker 1: talk to your X. Can you give me your number?
Speaker 1: I'd like to take her to lunch, um that is,
Speaker 1: and and actually believe what she's telling you. That is
Speaker 1: really hard when you're in love with someone and you
Speaker 1: think he's amazing and you think everything's going well. But
Speaker 1: I would say, um, if he's speaking badly about a
Speaker 1: former husband or sorry, a former spouse or a former girlfriend,
Speaker 1: that is a really big That would be probably one
Speaker 1: of the biggest first red flags. I think the other
Speaker 1: thing is just know that like the grooming part is
Speaker 1: part of the abuse. So this is what I'd like
Speaker 1: to educate women about. So you're in a relationship, you
Speaker 1: think it's amazing, and you hear these horror stories and
Speaker 1: you think, oh, well, I'm so glad you'd never do that.
Speaker 1: He's so understanding and you know, wonderful, and he's not
Speaker 1: that kind of guy. So with abuse, the grooming parts
Speaker 1: are abusive. When he puts on that show of like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm amazing, you're amazing, our relationship is good, I'm healthy, la,
Speaker 1: that is abuse in and of itself. That's a lot
Speaker 1: of women will think of, like Jacqueline Hyde, right, like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's amazing, and then we have this like bad week
Speaker 1: and it's so weird and I don't know what's going
Speaker 1: on and I'm so confused. So they kind of go
Speaker 1: back and forth. They might find porn, or they might
Speaker 1: find out he's been having an affair and be like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is so weird, like what what is happening? And
Speaker 1: it's really confusing and he seems sort of like jecklen Hyde.
Speaker 1: Then they don't realize that both of those sides to
Speaker 1: him are the abuse. So when a woman is thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: this is so great, he's still understanding, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: take a little bit of a step back and consider
Speaker 1: is what I'm experiencing a true, healthy, loving, partnered relationship.
Speaker 1: Does he actually see me as an equal? Does he
Speaker 1: actually see our relationship um as a partnership? Or am
Speaker 1: I being exploited and groomed? And in order to find
Speaker 1: out if that's the case, you have to take a
Speaker 1: little bit of a step back and be willing to,
Speaker 1: you know, set a few boundaries, tell them how you
Speaker 1: really feel, you know, things like that, and it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of time. So I always tell women to
Speaker 1: slow down a little bit, you know, like, don't just
Speaker 1: jump right into relationships. Try to take it a little
Speaker 1: bit slow so that you can see. But sometimes there's
Speaker 1: just no way to see the um, the ugly side
Speaker 1: of the abuse. The only thing you can see is
Speaker 1: that grooming side for a while, because they're not going
Speaker 1: to show that side until they feel like they have
Speaker 1: complete control. So, you know, red flags are tough. It's
Speaker 1: I think more than that, just giving women permission to
Speaker 1: know that they might miss them and it's okay, it's
Speaker 1: all right, But when they start seeing them, like pay
Speaker 1: attention and then don't feel bad, don't don't get down
Speaker 1: on yourself. Don't be like, oh, why didn't I see it?
Speaker 1: You know, because some of these guys are really really
Speaker 1: good at it and and seeing it. It's going to
Speaker 1: be hard, and it's not your fault. Right If if
Speaker 1: we tell women you should have seen the signs, you
Speaker 1: should have known you were being lied to, you know,
Speaker 1: you should have done this, then that's a form of
Speaker 1: victim blaming, right. So as as prepared as we try
Speaker 1: to be, as educated as we try to be, there's
Speaker 1: it's just kind of a crapshoot at times, and I think, um,
Speaker 1: just giving victims grace to know it's okay, we've all
Speaker 1: done it, we've all been there, we might all do it,
Speaker 1: and you know, but at least we know what we're
Speaker 1: looking at later down the road if we're educated. What
Speaker 1: if you get out of an abusive relationship, whatever that
Speaker 1: abuse looked like, and m there's still a form of
Speaker 1: abuse there, or abuse between friends or abuse, but you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it may be. But let's say you're not in
Speaker 1: that marriage anymore and there's there's still a form of abuse.
Speaker 1: How do you I mean, obviously boundaries are important, but
Speaker 1: how do you try and get past that? Like, I
Speaker 1: just think it's such a hard It can just take
Speaker 1: control of your life. So it's like, how do you
Speaker 1: get past that? How do you set up those boundaries
Speaker 1: to not allow that abuse to come in? That's really hard.
Speaker 1: I think a very common myth about abusive relationships is
Speaker 1: that divorces the solution, or breaking up as a solution,
Speaker 1: and it is in some ways. If you do not
Speaker 1: share child run with this person. Once the divorce is final,
Speaker 1: or even before the divorce is final, you can institute
Speaker 1: no contact boundaries. You can block them on your phone,
Speaker 1: you can you can never talk to that person again
Speaker 1: if you choose to. You can block their friends and family.
Speaker 1: Have you guys heard of the term flying monkeys? You
Speaker 1: know that term? Okay, So that would be the people
Speaker 1: who believe his side of the story, and in doing
Speaker 1: that they perpetuate the abuse. Um accidentally, right, they don't
Speaker 1: know that they're doing that, but they're so um when
Speaker 1: when you share children so so so not sharing children,
Speaker 1: I guess some people are think of their dogs or
Speaker 1: their pets, maybe in that same that same category where
Speaker 1: they like share custody of a dog or something. So
Speaker 1: Apart from that, I would say, um, if you're in
Speaker 1: that situation, if you can't get new kids, um, I'm
Speaker 1: not a dog person, so I don't want to say
Speaker 1: to all these people who love their dogs, just get
Speaker 1: a new dog. Maybe that sounds super harsh. Um, but
Speaker 1: if you if you can go on contact. If you can't,
Speaker 1: then you are going to be a victim of abuse
Speaker 1: for a long time. Now. Being a victim of abuse
Speaker 1: is a really interesting term. People don't like it. They
Speaker 1: don't they like a lot of people prefer survivor. And
Speaker 1: for women who share children, they haven't survived anything. It's
Speaker 1: like they're still on the Titanic. The Titanic is still sinking,
Speaker 1: you know, they haven't actually walked to dry ground. So
Speaker 1: I actually like the word victim in that case. The
Speaker 1: survivor sort of implies that it's over right. So for perpetual,
Speaker 1: ongoing victims of abuse who share children, who are pretty
Speaker 1: good at setting boundaries, it is just a tough road
Speaker 1: like period, and so it's really important to learn what
Speaker 1: boundaries you can set, what you can do. And then
Speaker 1: the awesome thing is the farther along you get in
Speaker 1: your healing and the stronger you get and the more
Speaker 1: confident you get the um, the more the fog will lift.
Speaker 1: And so you'll still actually be experiencing abuse, right, I'll
Speaker 1: still be lying, you'll still be gas lighting, You'll still
Speaker 1: have people meet you who think you're crazy. That will
Speaker 1: still happen. But because the fog has lifted and you're
Speaker 1: healed and you feel confident, um, it's it doesn't harm
Speaker 1: you as much. So an example that I give is,
Speaker 1: maybe before you've realized what's happening, he's stepping on your
Speaker 1: foot all the time, just to use a metaphor, and
Speaker 1: other people are stepping on your foot all the time,
Speaker 1: and you're you're learning and you're growing, and you're asking
Speaker 1: him not to step on your foot, and you're saying, hey,
Speaker 1: this hurts, don't step on my foot. But then later
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I just buy steel toad boots. You
Speaker 1: buy your still toad boots, you put them on. He's
Speaker 1: still you know, comes to a family function or something
Speaker 1: happens and he comes over and he steps on your
Speaker 1: foots that's what he's gonna do, but it's not gonna
Speaker 1: hurt as much. You're just gonna be like whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: and he is going to be like, this doesn't work anymore. Man,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to step on her foot, but she doesn't react.
Speaker 1: She doesn't like, I'm not getting what I like out
Speaker 1: of this, and he'll stop stepping on your foot, hopefully eventually.
Speaker 1: That's the theory. I've been divorced for six years now,
Speaker 1: and uh, he's still trying to step on my foot.
Speaker 1: So so I'm hoping eventually that will subside. But it's
Speaker 1: something that society doesn't really understand. It's something that society
Speaker 1: still thinks, like, well, they're divorced, what's wrong with her?
Speaker 1: Why can't she forgive? Or why can't she just move on?
Speaker 1: Or something like that. And I think it's because they
Speaker 1: don't recognize she's still being actively victimized. Um, she's still
Speaker 1: being lied to, she's still being gas lit. And unless
Speaker 1: that stops, it's gonna be pretty hard for her to
Speaker 1: like want to be in the same room with him.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be pretty hard for her not to bristle
Speaker 1: a little bit. I mean, nobody would say to a
Speaker 1: rape victim who had been raped on the street by
Speaker 1: a stranger, Um, what's wrong with her? Why can't she
Speaker 1: talk to this stranger? You know? Everyone's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: get it, I get it. But then when it comes
Speaker 1: to someone who's been abused by their husband for ten
Speaker 1: years and finally realize what's happened, and then sudden she's
Speaker 1: supposed to be able to be in the same room
Speaker 1: with him, like and through all the sexual coccersion and stuff,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, that's a lot of pressure to put
Speaker 1: on victims. The abuser doesn't mind. The abuser wants that interaction,
Speaker 1: they want the chaos, They like causing that pain to her.
Speaker 1: So they're not in a hurry to move on anytime
Speaker 1: soon in terms in terms of just causing chaos in
Speaker 1: her life. And um, they'll look really happy and smiley
Speaker 1: and you know during the thing. So so it's hard.
Speaker 1: You're I'm seeing are you okay? She's having a hard
Speaker 1: time this, this is what you're going through. I needed
Speaker 1: to hear. Sorry, you didn't sign up for this today
Speaker 1: or did you? Did you know you were signing up
Speaker 1: for me? It's good taken out. It was interesting when
Speaker 1: you touched on all the different types of abuse, you know,
Speaker 1: the grooming that all of the I think people just
Speaker 1: see abuse as either physical or emotional, like plain and
Speaker 1: simple that's all there is. And I think, um, I
Speaker 1: think it's people need to to hear that and to
Speaker 1: know that there's all forms of abuse and it's you know,
Speaker 1: it can happen at any point. I think the part
Speaker 1: that's hard for people to understand is that physical abuse
Speaker 1: doesn't happen in a silo. So if you've been physically assaulted,
Speaker 1: you have also been emotionally abused and psychologically abused, Like
Speaker 1: the things I'm talking about happening every emotionally abusive relationship,
Speaker 1: in every psychologically abusive relationships. So if people think of
Speaker 1: abuse as this thing right here and then they're like, well,
Speaker 1: he's nice to her and he's super cool and he's
Speaker 1: educated and you know whatever there, they don't know that
Speaker 1: that is that's abuse, that's what it is. They just
Speaker 1: they've only been educated and not like like this much,
Speaker 1: and so they think the abuse is just this one
Speaker 1: little part and they don't realize that that's actually every
Speaker 1: abuse victims experience. I don't mean the details are all
Speaker 1: the same. I don't mean that the situations are the same,
Speaker 1: but I do mean that, Um, we interact with abusive
Speaker 1: men all the time, and we don't know because of
Speaker 1: these other parts of it, right of the grooming and
Speaker 1: all the other parts. And um, that's also why they
Speaker 1: continue to get away with it because people listen to
Speaker 1: them and think, Oh, what a poor guy. This is
Speaker 1: so sad. I feel so bad for him, and they
Speaker 1: don't recognize that he is literally the typical abuser, Like
Speaker 1: he's not some special case. He's not, um, he's not
Speaker 1: like a good abuser, or he's not like you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe that. What I'm trying
Speaker 1: to say is that's just abuse. That's what it looks like.
Speaker 1: And UM, people really don't want to think that the
Speaker 1: person that they know, that they've known for a long
Speaker 1: time is an abuser. There's there's a very heavy weight
Speaker 1: to the word abuser that people feel really uncomfortable with
Speaker 1: because it's it's awful to be in a victim because
Speaker 1: you think like, I didn't think I was like that.
Speaker 1: I didn't think I'd ever put up with that, you know,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And then it's awful to also
Speaker 1: think like, oh, is he ever going to change? Like
Speaker 1: is he ever going to be able to have um,
Speaker 1: like a healthy life? You know, questions like that that
Speaker 1: are really hard to wrap our heads around and you know,
Speaker 1: we don't have the answers to those questions yet, so um,
Speaker 1: but for victims, it's there's no way to know. So
Speaker 1: I just don't want women to blame themselves or to
Speaker 1: feel bad but they didn't see it coming. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: do you do with um? Like um, like wanting to
Speaker 1: keep the peace for the kids, but also it's you
Speaker 1: want to have good boundaries, but then also you want
Speaker 1: to have um family functions together and be a family,
Speaker 1: and but yet that usually ends having like emotional warfare
Speaker 1: with myself. How do you how do you handle like
Speaker 1: doing both those things when both can be when they're
Speaker 1: both I don't know. I guess that how do you
Speaker 1: how do you how can you do both? Or like
Speaker 1: how do you separate? Or because you know, the kids,
Speaker 1: My kids are my life, you know, I always want
Speaker 1: them to be happy, and is there a way to
Speaker 1: be able to separate the past or you know, because
Speaker 1: to them the past has is done and that's in
Speaker 1: my experience, they say that's the past, like now we're
Speaker 1: here now, like get over it? Um? And how old
Speaker 1: are your kids? Six and three? Yeah? Um? The cool
Speaker 1: thing is you get to decide, You get to navigate
Speaker 1: this in a way that works for you, and it's
Speaker 1: going to take you some time to figure out what
Speaker 1: you really like and what really brings you peace your goal.
Speaker 1: But I don't want to be the bitch. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be there, like, so it's like I'm like
Speaker 1: trying to be kind and like, oh, yeah, you can
Speaker 1: come like but but then it's like how it feels later,
Speaker 1: It doesn't It doesn't feel good knowing that. I still
Speaker 1: feel like I still want the apology, even though in
Speaker 1: my experience that person has said, you know, I've apologized
Speaker 1: a million times, but I'm like, but you really haven't
Speaker 1: like to your in the true empathy, right, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about the I don't want to make him mad
Speaker 1: or I don't want to appear crazy, or I don't
Speaker 1: want to appear to be you know this awful like
Speaker 1: raunchy woman that for me, Yeah, exactly. So on that note,
Speaker 1: I remember one day I said to my mom, like,
Speaker 1: I can't write in that he's gonna get mad, and
Speaker 1: she was awesome and said, and of course you can.
Speaker 1: He's mad anyway, and I was like, oh, like, no
Speaker 1: matter what I do is gonna get mad. So I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna be myself like that. For me, that was like,
Speaker 1: oh done. You know, not that I did that after that,
Speaker 1: but just realizing that this um trying to avoid being
Speaker 1: the difficult woman, trying to appear to be the ideal
Speaker 1: woman that society wants you to be, which means that
Speaker 1: apparently you smile and you know whatever it is you're
Speaker 1: supposed to do is abuse in and of itself, right,
Speaker 1: So when you think those things to yourself, I can't
Speaker 1: say what I really think. I can't have what I
Speaker 1: really want, I can't um be safe in my own home,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is, And this is going to
Speaker 1: be a journey for you. So I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: say like I don't have any answers for you. So
Speaker 1: I hope that that comes across that this is just
Speaker 1: sort of more of a brainstorming type of idea. But um,
Speaker 1: maybe consider that sometimes those things that are keeping you
Speaker 1: from saying, like I really actually don't want him to
Speaker 1: come over. I would have a better time and I
Speaker 1: would feel closer to my kids, and I would feel
Speaker 1: more peace if he didn't come over. And I don't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable me he's here and I don't like it,
Speaker 1: and think and that's okay, that's okay. Why why is
Speaker 1: the victims so or the why why is the person
Speaker 1: so afraid of the reaction of the of the person
Speaker 1: of the other person, Because because it's abuse, because he
Speaker 1: has abused you to the point where you don't want
Speaker 1: to do that thing. I mean, think about the control
Speaker 1: that that wields. Right your own internal dialogue that you
Speaker 1: have that you did not know was the abuse talking.
Speaker 1: It's not actually you talking, it's the abuse talking. And
Speaker 1: it's not just from him, by the way, It's from
Speaker 1: a lot of different men. It's from a lot of
Speaker 1: different things going on. Right. So women have accidentally, like
Speaker 1: sort of um absorbed this misogyny from all over the
Speaker 1: place and are now like, wait a minute, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: who am I and what do I want? Now? That's
Speaker 1: why I say this is a personal journey, because you
Speaker 1: might find that you actually, um like it better. It's
Speaker 1: better for you, it's better for your kids, even though
Speaker 1: it might be uncomfortable. You might think, Okay, even though
Speaker 1: I know these abusive even though I know these things
Speaker 1: are gonna happen and I'm gonna get a little hurt. Um,
Speaker 1: I would prefer that he come over for these other reasons. Right, So,
Speaker 1: so one of the things I encourage victims to do
Speaker 1: is maybe like journal a little bit, right, some pros
Speaker 1: and cons. Here are all the pros of doing this thing.
Speaker 1: Here are all the cons of doing this thing right.
Speaker 1: And then also write the results of what happens in
Speaker 1: an experiment a little because one thing an abuser doesn't
Speaker 1: want you to do is they don't want you to experiment.
Speaker 1: They don't want to they don't want you to tell
Speaker 1: them what you really think. Um. They want to be
Speaker 1: able to do what they want, regardless of how it
Speaker 1: makes you feel. So considering like how do I feel?
Speaker 1: Do I feel comfortable those types of things, and start
Speaker 1: asserting yourself in different ways depending on how you feel.
Speaker 1: And again, there aren't any right or wrong answers here,
Speaker 1: but um, I just want women to consider that all
Speaker 1: these things holding them back from saying I'm not comfortable,
Speaker 1: I don't want this. Um no, you can't come over.
Speaker 1: Whatever the thing is is a lot of the time
Speaker 1: it's abuse. I'm so proud of my seven year old
Speaker 1: daughter who um says I'm uncomfortable. I am not comfortable
Speaker 1: with this all the time now, And it can be
Speaker 1: anything and she's like, I don't feel comfortable, and even
Speaker 1: to me sometimes I'm like, hey, let's go for a walk,
Speaker 1: and she'll say, Mom, I'm not comfortable. I need a
Speaker 1: jacket or whatever. You know, it's just whatever, And I
Speaker 1: think good for you. Like being able to express what
Speaker 1: you're comfortable with is part of abuse as healing from this,
Speaker 1: because that is part of coming back to yourself, and
Speaker 1: it takes time to figure out what you really want
Speaker 1: and what you don't really want. And I know a
Speaker 1: lot of women who are able to Um, I'm not
Speaker 1: like this, so I just want to put that out there.
Speaker 1: But UM, a lot of women who are able to
Speaker 1: do family functions with their abusers, and they choose to
Speaker 1: do that knowingly, knowing the pros and cons. I am,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. I blocked him on my phone.
Speaker 1: I blocked him on my email. I only contact mine
Speaker 1: through our family wizard if we're in the same room.
Speaker 1: I do not speak to him. UM, and I feel
Speaker 1: more comfortable at my so just depending on and I
Speaker 1: don't care. Like at this point he's like, oh, she
Speaker 1: won't speak to me, and then he'll tell people. You know,
Speaker 1: I like, I walked in and Um, he doesn't speak
Speaker 1: to me either, so that's fine. But if he if
Speaker 1: he lied and told someone, yeah, well we're in the
Speaker 1: same room and I tried to talk to her and
Speaker 1: she wouldn't say anything something like that, Um, that would
Speaker 1: be true. But also I'm okay with that. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk to him because every time
Speaker 1: I talked, literally every time I have talked to him,
Speaker 1: which has maybe been four times in the last six
Speaker 1: years or I don't know, you know, six times, he's
Speaker 1: lied to my face. Like right then, every like, there
Speaker 1: has not been a time when he hasn't lied to
Speaker 1: my face. Here's an example. I was at a parent
Speaker 1: teacher conference. I walked over to him and said, you
Speaker 1: cannot be at my parent teacher conference. You need to
Speaker 1: make your own appointment. And he said, no, this is
Speaker 1: my appointment. And I was like no, because I know
Speaker 1: I made the appointment, right, so I know he's gaslighting me.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, no, if that's not true, this is
Speaker 1: my appointment. And he's like, no, it's mine. I made it.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I said, you're lying, I know it's
Speaker 1: my appointment. You cannot come to my appointments and then
Speaker 1: I walked off, and then later in the hall, he
Speaker 1: came up and put his hand on my shoulder, all
Speaker 1: nice and said, UM, and I just I just wish
Speaker 1: we could get along. I got the nicest you know
Speaker 1: look on his face, and I said, we will never
Speaker 1: get along until you tell the truth, you take accountability,
Speaker 1: and you clean up your mess. Goodbye, And I just
Speaker 1: walked off. But I'm like, I'm I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: going to try to get along with you. You lie
Speaker 1: to my face every time I talked to you. Um,
Speaker 1: your emails are full of lies, your messages are full
Speaker 1: of lies. I have no desire to like pretend like
Speaker 1: it's okay now. I feel comfortable there with my personality
Speaker 1: and like the you know stuff I have going on,
Speaker 1: and a lot of other women they don't feel comfortable there,
Speaker 1: like they wouldn't like that, so they so the cool
Speaker 1: thing about UM healing is that you get to discover
Speaker 1: how you feel, how you want to do it. And
Speaker 1: there are women I respect so much and I think
Speaker 1: they're doing it right and they don't do it like
Speaker 1: I do, which is fine, um so, but I but
Speaker 1: I just want to give women permission to do it. However,
Speaker 1: they want. You know, if you don't want to talk
Speaker 1: to them, you can tell them to your face or
Speaker 1: to his face, or you don't have to Actually, don't
Speaker 1: do this if you don't want to talk to him.
Speaker 1: If you don't want to talk to someone, don't go
Speaker 1: up to them and tell them you don't want to
Speaker 1: talk to them. I always think that's pretty funny. If
Speaker 1: you don't want to talk about just block them on
Speaker 1: your phone, you know, like like you and let them
Speaker 1: say what they're gonna say. That gives me like hives though,
Speaker 1: because I'm just so afraid of reactions, Like it's just
Speaker 1: literally gives me like from from anybody, from anybody in
Speaker 1: my past, Like I'm afraid of their reaction. And I
Speaker 1: know that stems from my past abuse relationships, but I
Speaker 1: just still like, I don't know, I'm I just always
Speaker 1: want to keep the peace, and you know, and and
Speaker 1: that is the effect of abuse, and that's the purpose
Speaker 1: of abuse, and that's the effect, right. The purpose of
Speaker 1: the abuse is um get a woman to do something
Speaker 1: she's uncomfortable with, and if she doesn't do it, make
Speaker 1: everybody thinks she's crazy and punish her for it. Essentially,
Speaker 1: that's what abuse is So when you say it gives
Speaker 1: me high, is because I don't want to, you know, like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be yelled at or whatever he does.
Speaker 1: I don't want to cause problems, right, that kind of
Speaker 1: a thing. That is the abuse talking. Now, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that you should do it. That's again it's up
Speaker 1: to you, but just remember that a lot of these
Speaker 1: things that you're thinking is that is actually the abuse,
Speaker 1: and the effect that it's trying to get is for
Speaker 1: you to comply. Um. I have a coin for abuse victims.
Speaker 1: It's awesome, and on one side it says I will
Speaker 1: not comply and it's not gonna feel good to go
Speaker 1: against an abuser because you're gonna get flat back, right.
Speaker 1: So a lot of women we'll be like, well, it
Speaker 1: just didn't feel right, and I felt really uncomfortable and
Speaker 1: I just I got high, you know whatever. Like it's
Speaker 1: just like the most awful feeling in the world because
Speaker 1: you do not want to do it, um, and you
Speaker 1: don't have to, but you there are ways of not
Speaker 1: complying safely that you might feel comfortable with that you
Speaker 1: might discover and say, Okay, well, I don't want to
Speaker 1: really want to say this to his face because I'm
Speaker 1: really nervous, but I know he's going to be here
Speaker 1: and I know he's gonna show up, So instead of
Speaker 1: saying anything about it, I think I'm actually just going
Speaker 1: to pack up the car and go, you know, and
Speaker 1: I won't be around um or other methods of not
Speaker 1: complying that aren't so obvious to him maybe or maybe
Speaker 1: aren't so in his space. UM So that you can
Speaker 1: start getting out of your own head when it comes
Speaker 1: to abuse and separate that out so that he's not
Speaker 1: still abusing you in your head. Like I find the
Speaker 1: abuse victims are still abused in their head by their
Speaker 1: abuser years after, even though he's not saying anything to them. Well,
Speaker 1: it's probably just from all the mental or the you know,
Speaker 1: the verbal abuse from years prior that they just I know,
Speaker 1: in my past, like I've I've believed those things from
Speaker 1: my past, abusers have been like, oh, well they said
Speaker 1: I'm this, so I'm that right. They said I'm crazy,
Speaker 1: and I guess I'm crazy. They said I'm not worth it, Okay,
Speaker 1: then I guess I'm not, you know, and the next
Speaker 1: person and that's a kind of curious for the next time,
Speaker 1: Like how do you, you know, because of my past situations,
Speaker 1: like how how do I allow? Because it's almost like
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I allow, like I'm afraid to
Speaker 1: like let let myself be happy. Yeah, yeah, that will
Speaker 1: just take time. I think that's how I was like
Speaker 1: that for well too. I think all all abuse victims
Speaker 1: go through this like agoraphobic kind of a thing where
Speaker 1: you're like you don't want to move or do anything
Speaker 1: or go out of the house because it's everything feels
Speaker 1: really scary, right, And that's like the safety and stabilization
Speaker 1: phase where you're just trying to get to safety. You're
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's going on, and then when
Speaker 1: you can take a breath, like okay, it's not my
Speaker 1: face all the metaphorically in my I said, I did
Speaker 1: that with my first abuser back in l A. I
Speaker 1: remember I didn't leave the department for about a month,
Speaker 1: and then when I did, I had a panic attack,
Speaker 1: like m but because that my that the two thousand
Speaker 1: square foot apartment was the only safety I felt like
Speaker 1: I had, and then I got out, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh God, where is he? You know, I'm just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's scary. Yeah. So the second phase is grieving and
Speaker 1: processing because then you have to look at what happened
Speaker 1: with a new paradigm and recognize like and you have
Speaker 1: to process. You have to reprocess everything. So if you're
Speaker 1: if you're looking at everything like this and suddenly you
Speaker 1: put new glasses on and everything like, oh all these
Speaker 1: times he was nice to me, that was rooming, right,
Speaker 1: then you have to process all that sort of over
Speaker 1: again with a new light and um. Like like a
Speaker 1: lot of women asked, like, so he never really loved me?
Speaker 1: For example, Well they'll say they never really loved you
Speaker 1: to exactly like he did at first, but then I
Speaker 1: don't love it was in love, pover loved you or something, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Let's say he didn't ever say I never really loved you.
Speaker 1: Let's say I did. Let's say he says I love
Speaker 1: I did love you. I loved you so much, you
Speaker 1: were amazing, but then I realized what you were really like,
Speaker 1: or you know, something like abusive like that, and you're
Speaker 1: reprocessing that, um, abusive men can't actually love. So it's
Speaker 1: not that women aren't lovable. We're absolutely lovable. Like you
Speaker 1: guys are gorgeous. I'm gorgeous. We're fun we're crazy. That's crazy. Responsible?
Speaker 1: Am I crazy? I don't know, I have. I have
Speaker 1: so much to work on, you know. But I mean
Speaker 1: also I did, Yeah, you're you're fine, You're you're fine,
Speaker 1: you don't deserve abuse. But I will say though too,
Speaker 1: like I know in my past relationships, like I've said
Speaker 1: some really mean things too. Like I I can also
Speaker 1: be like, oh I was that was verbally abusive, calling
Speaker 1: someone in a hole or being like you're you know,
Speaker 1: so it's like and in that I'm like, well, it's
Speaker 1: a spade a spade. Then like then I'm just being
Speaker 1: cattle black. Like if if I'm saying, well, you're an
Speaker 1: a hole, I don't know, so then I just character
Speaker 1: So then I discredit the other abuse because I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I I also called him an asshole? Right, Um, I
Speaker 1: would disagree with you. And the reason I disagree is
Speaker 1: because um, abuse is exploitation at the core, So they
Speaker 1: actually that the behaviors have our goal oriented, okay, and
Speaker 1: they're exploited. They're exploitative in nature. So essentially, you're not
Speaker 1: falling in love with a person you're following. You're following
Speaker 1: in love with if you're an abuser you're following. You're
Speaker 1: falling in love with what that person can do for you.
Speaker 1: So they're going to give you sex, they're going to
Speaker 1: give you they're going to look good at parties, you know.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying saying women can't can't do this.
Speaker 1: Women can do this for sure. But the core of
Speaker 1: abuse is exploitation. So when I say he he actually
Speaker 1: didn't love you, but not because you're not lovable, It's
Speaker 1: because what he loved was what you could do for him,
Speaker 1: not actually you as an individual person, right as like
Speaker 1: like he respecting you, respecting what you want, respecting your wishes,
Speaker 1: respecting who you are. He groomed you to think that
Speaker 1: at first, but then after a while you realize, like,
Speaker 1: actually he doesn't care. You know, uh, he really doesn't care. Um.
Speaker 1: So when women are like, oh, man, I swore at him,
Speaker 1: or you know, I did whatever whatever it is, they
Speaker 1: feel really guilty about. I want them I want to
Speaker 1: ask the question, were you doing that because it was
Speaker 1: your motivation exploitation or was your motivation safety and truth?
Speaker 1: Because I have found that most women they come at
Speaker 1: that and they they they're calling him names, or they're
Speaker 1: swearing or whatever. They're doing. Their motivation is actually safety.
Speaker 1: They're like, you hurt me and I am trying to
Speaker 1: figure this out and I am angry and I am frustrated.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's abuse. I you might say
Speaker 1: things you regret, you might not be like fantastic, but
Speaker 1: I don't think that the core of that when it
Speaker 1: comes to a woman who is hurt, is to exploit.
Speaker 1: I think her core she is looking for safety and
Speaker 1: she's trying to defend herself. Um, And I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's true, but no, I hear you, and I absolutely,
Speaker 1: Like I always say, like when I talked to my
Speaker 1: therapist therapist about it, I I always say like, yeah, like
Speaker 1: I you know it was I didn't feel safe and
Speaker 1: all those situations. But I I'm curious. But then what
Speaker 1: it would if that person then says, well, I had
Speaker 1: my own stuff, in my own shame, so this is
Speaker 1: why I did X, Y and Z. So then it's
Speaker 1: like is that just then two again to like two
Speaker 1: people that just like I was reacting to his to
Speaker 1: what he did, and he's reacting because of his own
Speaker 1: shame and his own stuff, right, And that is where, um,
Speaker 1: you know, when I feel shame. Ice cream Okay, okay, okay, right,
Speaker 1: I know I'm just trying to make it. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to make like not an excuse, but like I'm trying
Speaker 1: to like, I don't know, you've got you've got abuse,
Speaker 1: So abuses here, right, Abuse lives here. And abuse has
Speaker 1: no purpose, no um reason, has no excuse. The what
Speaker 1: it wants is to exploit someone else and to control them. Okay.
Speaker 1: And then you have someone who is looking for safety
Speaker 1: and truth and trying to defend themselves they do. Their
Speaker 1: purpose is not to exploit. Their purposes not to control.
Speaker 1: Their purpose is not to um, you know, subvert somebody else.
Speaker 1: The purpose is for an actual partnered relationship. They're looking
Speaker 1: for truth. They're looking to be equal with that other person.
Speaker 1: An abuser never wants to be equal. When it gets
Speaker 1: close to being equal, they'll lie, they'll manipulate, they'll do
Speaker 1: something so that you can't be on equal ground. If
Speaker 1: someone is lying to you right there, Let's say they're
Speaker 1: using pornography, and pornography is not it is outside your
Speaker 1: sexual boundaries. Let's say, okay, and so they know that
Speaker 1: if they told you everything that they do sexually, that
Speaker 1: you would be on equal ground. You would know them
Speaker 1: like as they are, and then you would be able
Speaker 1: to make a decision as to whether or not you
Speaker 1: wanted to be in that relationship. On equal ground. You
Speaker 1: could say, oh, this is who you are. Okay, well
Speaker 1: you shine on you be you. I'm not into that.
Speaker 1: Thanks for letting me know. I'm out right. There's no
Speaker 1: threat to that other than like, okay, you can be yourself.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go be me over here. We don't have
Speaker 1: to be together. But abuse wants to say I know
Speaker 1: that if she knew this stuff or that if I
Speaker 1: told her this, that she would leave. And because she's
Speaker 1: not equal to me, because I have the right to
Speaker 1: exploit her, because I have the right to withhold information
Speaker 1: from her that automatically puts him in his own mind
Speaker 1: and in our case, above us. Right, So they hold
Speaker 1: this power because we don't have all the information. So
Speaker 1: I think when you think about that, think about the motivation.
Speaker 1: Think about now, an abuser when they learn these this language.
Speaker 1: Let's say there's an abuser listening today, they're going to
Speaker 1: use this. They weaponize everything. If they go to therapy,
Speaker 1: they're going to weaponize it. If they go to pornography,
Speaker 1: a action recovery, If they go to sex addiction recovery,
Speaker 1: they're going to weaponize it. So what they would say
Speaker 1: to you is, well, I also didn't feel safe. I
Speaker 1: was also defending myself against your verbal attacks. They're going
Speaker 1: to use everything they can, it doesn't matter what it is,
Speaker 1: to weaponize it against a victim. And so um, that's
Speaker 1: why I never recommend couple of therapy. I never recommend
Speaker 1: you know, like reading some kind of therapy book with
Speaker 1: your abuse or other other things like that, because anything
Speaker 1: that even a lot of spiritual abuse, a lot of
Speaker 1: spiritual stuff, scripture, you know, depending on um, where where
Speaker 1: you get your help from, depending on what you're looking for,
Speaker 1: they're going to weaponize that. And you can tell that
Speaker 1: they're weaponizing it by how you feel. Yeah, And if
Speaker 1: they're not weaponizing it, if they're legit like using it
Speaker 1: the way it should be used, you're not going to
Speaker 1: feel bad. You're going to be like, oh, things are
Speaker 1: getting a little better, right. So UM, I just want
Speaker 1: victims to not don't just listen to these words, because
Speaker 1: your abuser could hear this podcast and be like I
Speaker 1: my motivation was love, my motivation was safety, and they're
Speaker 1: just lying their actual motivation it was exploitation. And thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on getting real with us,
Speaker 1: share and all this. I mean, this is very helpful
Speaker 1: for both of us, both sides. And where can our
Speaker 1: listeners hear your podcast? And UM get on? Where where
Speaker 1: can I also like to get on placed on me everything? Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, I apologize for talking so much. UM,
Speaker 1: I would love to hear your stories. So if you
Speaker 1: would like to come on my podcast, I would love
Speaker 1: to have you so after we can maybe talk about that. UM.
Speaker 1: My podcast is Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We share stories from victims. UM.
Speaker 1: It is an amazing place where women are believed and
Speaker 1: people listen and it's UM it's an awesome podcast, So
Speaker 1: you can I think I already said this, but you
Speaker 1: can find it on Apple podcast or your podcasting apps.
Speaker 1: Our website is b t R dot org. At bt R,
Speaker 1: we have multiple groups a day in every single time zone.
Speaker 1: We have trauma informed and abuse UM specialists who help
Speaker 1: women process this stuff. We're the only organization that I
Speaker 1: know of that includes infidelity and porn use and and
Speaker 1: sexual acting out outside of a woman's sexual boundaries as
Speaker 1: an abuse issue. I think it is an abuse issue
Speaker 1: because of all the things that go along with it. UM,
Speaker 1: and so women are really safe at BTR too feel
Speaker 1: all the feelings they need to feel in order to heal,
Speaker 1: and we um we see women healing all the time,
Speaker 1: even though it takes time. So again, that's b t
Speaker 1: R dot org. You can also find us on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Betrayal Trauma Recovery or on TikTok um. My colleague
Speaker 1: Diana runs our TikTok and it's really fun. They're really fun.
Speaker 1: It's it's miserable, but she's really good at it. Um.
Speaker 1: She runs our TikTok and that's a beautier dot org
Speaker 1: as well. Awesome, Well, thank you so much. I appreciate
Speaker 1: it more than you know. Thank you. Okay, all right,
Speaker 1: by great, thank you. I actually love UM. I forgot
Speaker 1: that I follow padreal Trauma I do, and I love
Speaker 1: I love the girl that they have on there, like
Speaker 1: she's she's amazing. Um. They talked about like narcissum, gas lighting. UM,
Speaker 1: he like abusive to the mom, but she's still a
Speaker 1: really good dad. And I'm just going to call that one.
Speaker 1: It's false. He can't be a good dad and be
Speaker 1: abusive to the children's mother. It's just not possible. Like
Speaker 1: she throws me, I'm going to get some comments from men. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she throws. She's she's really good. I mean she says
Speaker 1: a lot of like I just I like love. Following
Speaker 1: I was like, wait a minute, I know that name
Speaker 1: um because that wasn't that must she must be like
Speaker 1: the head of it. I'm not sure, but yeah she's um.
Speaker 1: Recently I was talking to an abuse victim. Yeah she's great.
Speaker 1: So if you guys fell betrayal, trauma recovery, hopefully this
Speaker 1: is helpful to y'all. And again this is just um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm, I'm, I'm spent fair Okay, I love you,
Speaker 1: b