WEBVTT - The Road to Healing 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:08.160 Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. Easton. 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:12.600 I'm really bummed because I missed you in Nashville. You 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.800 were at Is it true that Ben Higgins got married? 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.479 Ben Higgins got married? The Bachelor tied the knot, finally 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.120 tied the knot? Um? So where was it at? Tell 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:31.200 us everything? It was at Reba McIntire's um former home her. 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:44.840 It's Lebanon, rodeo drill. I've been saying Lebanon for a week. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:51.559 We actually ins in your defense, Eastern Sorry, in Easten defense. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:58.880 How's the bote slip um? In Easton's defense? Is it 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:03.560 not Lebonon? Oh, it's Lebanon. That's so I've called it Lebanon. Wow, 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.920 Leon says the one person from National Exactly, I should 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.840 ask me next time Lebanon go on man. Yeah. I 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.560 don't know how much else I was mispronouncing now, but yeah, 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.000 it was this beautiful. You know, it was on like 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:19.640 a body of water. And I don't know if it 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:21.560 was a lake or just are a bond, but it was. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.800 It was gorgeous. There's like four hundred people there, hundred people, 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.240 four people all this closest friends and family. They were 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:35.600 all of Bachelor Nation, all of Bachelor Nations people, I 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.399 don't what how many people do you have your wedding? 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:47.240 Oh gosh, Like I don't know, hud, it's expensive to 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.400 get married. How did you I had mine? My inlaws 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.920 made me invite like everyone I didn't even know. I mean, 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.960 there there was some drama with with with with you know, 0:01:58.000 --> 0:01:59.720 not inviting certain people. But at the same time, like 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:01.600 when you are paying for the wedding, like who's paying 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.160 for four hundred people? Like that was like coming out 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.880 of my account. So I'm like, we're cutting the line man, 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:09.720 like under eighty, Like, don't under it because it's like 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.839 it's expensive four hundred people. Oh yeah. It was so 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:19.440 crazy and I was really it was not televised because 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:24.880 I would have understood that. I'm right, People magazine got 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.880 the exclusive. There are a lot of flowers, a lot 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.160 of flowers, so just how many how much money four 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:36.000 hundred people of flowers would be to feel like I was, 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.239 I'm sure it was a high budget. Holy Holy. I 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.000 thought there was gonna be like a sit down dinner thing. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:43.760 So I was all nervous because I'm like, I don't know. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.440 The only people I know from here are bachelor people 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:47.760 and they don't want to talk to me, you know. 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.040 They did, they were very nice, but they didn't do 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.040 a sit down dinner. They did like a buffet thing 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.239 and then this big hall and everyone just kind of 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:57.800 roamed around and you could get like pizza and pasta 0:02:57.840 --> 0:02:59.560 and just kind of hang out. That's because there was 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:06.280 four hundred people. I sit down dinner for four Yeah, no, no, 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.200 this was the way to do it. And everyone had 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.200 a really good time. There's lots of dancing. The band 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:17.120 was great. Ben and Jess looked studying. Ben had thirteen groomsmen, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.480 which I thought was really funny and cool. But when 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.079 they came out, it was like a clown car, like 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:27.200 the just more people kept coming down. She too, she 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:31.560 had like eighty. It was it was uneven. So I'm 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.760 like a fan of that. I like the evenist. There's 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:36.960 no way I could do that, really, that would drive 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.720 Thinking about that gives me anxiety. Why just looking it 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:49.920 up there? Uneven? I can't like that really, yes, because 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.000 I think there's like I mean, I don't have like 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.840 I have a very small queendom, so like and I 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:56.640 know in the past, like someone would want more, and 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:58.960 I'm like well, like I don't have like I'm going 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.760 to start. I'm pulling people from like from from second 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.840 people to be don't you remember me I went to 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:11.920 kindergarten with you and be in my wedding. Thanks. But 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:13.400 I mean now I feel like it's kind of cool 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.560 and people are like screw it, like I'm going to 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.280 have and now like I feel like i'd have like 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.960 a queendom up there. You don't have a lot of people. 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:21.360 I would have a lot of people. And I'm here 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.160 for it because now everyone's like rooting for happiness. Oh 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.719 I can't wait to plan this, wait for fun. But 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.000 like it really that would bother you, like if it 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.040 was set like I mean, I'll get over it. If 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.360 you can't, if you were a future groom cannot come 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.920 up with the same amount, I'll get over it. Oh God, 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:46.240 I cant even think about that. I was gonna ask, 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.640 is that going through your mind? Like, are you already 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.479 picking up bridesmaids for okay, mark for the next one? 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.719 I mean no, but like just again, it's just such 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:00.720 so weird. Like I was having this conversation with Katherine, 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.120 I was talking about something I'm like, I have not 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.200 like had a boyfriend, not saying I have a boyfriend. 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.440 I'm just saying, like I'm not saying anything, but I'm 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.520 just saying. What I'm saying is what I'm saying. What 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:19.520 I'm saying is is like, like what are you saying? 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:24.520 What I'm saying is it's just a very weird thing, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.280 like to be you know, married for however seven something 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:29.800 year or you know six seven and seven together and 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.280 it's like to them have to go do like never 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.640 thinking that you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna meet someone's 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.400 parents or I'm gonna they're gonna meet my kids or 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.720 like someone else. It's like a very it's just strange. 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.119 And so I would never think, given my Elizabeth Taylor 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:48.359 background of marriages, that I would even think about it. 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:53.359 But now here's something. Laugh all you want, bitches, He's like, 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.640 but here's the thing. Now Now I'm like, I feel 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.960 like because everyone is so invested in my love life, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.640 from friends to listeners, like I want to invite the 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:08.240 entire Wine down like viewership, like I think we all 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.640 are like rooting for like you're gonna have like a 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.800 hundred and thousands and thousand people I'm here for that. 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.159 That would be so funny. That would be so much fun. 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.719 Like I want an open bar for everybody. I don't 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.560 know the money, but for exactly what I'm saying, I've 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:25.760 don't have the money for it, but like if we 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:27.520 can get sponsors, if we can, like you know, like 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.000 figure it out, making a live podcast kind of thing, 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:39.679 podcasting while you gave birth. Just can't. I can't feel 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.640 my lives. I remember where I was listening to that podcast. 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.560 Where were you? I was in my car coming out 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:53.800 of therapy. Then my life is good. I think she's dying. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:59.760 Table Yeah. She tells someone that I'm a hypochondriac. Am 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.520 I hypochondriac? I didn't say the words you're a hypochondriac. 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.760 I said, you think you're going to die? Very often? 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:16.160 I do. It's true a hypochondriac. She does, like often 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.160 she asked, am I going to die? I do ask? 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.040 I take three Adavia while I die? And the person 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.400 that I said this too, was like, do you truly 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.360 think you're gonna die? Or are you just saying that? 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.000 I think I have a fear of it because the kids, 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.040 so like every time I get on a plane, that's 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:39.120 fair every time, I you know, but I mean obviously 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.080 like driving is. But and then I'm like, you're looking 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:42.800 down at my phone. I'm like, what am I doing? Like? 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.080 But I think I have a fear of the unknown, 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:47.920 of what is, Like like when I had when I 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:50.240 walked around for step Strap for a month, I was like, 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.960 I'm dying of cancer, like and I'm afraid of like 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.920 the what what those those things that could happen. I 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.360 think that's normal. I would have felt that way. I mean, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:05.160 out really fast time out. This girl Catherine will do 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.440 an entire body scan to make sure that she's not 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:14.800 dying of something. So like, here's the difference. I just 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.880 like to know what's going on. But if I'm in 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.720 a situation like taking three ad bills, I'm not going 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.360 to ask Joe about very advill But I'm saying I 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.000 think it was fair for you to be scared about. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.040 But I did ask, thank you very much. That was terrifying. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.840 But I did ask about taking me in moxicillin with 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.520 wine because I'm obviously still in moxicillans. And it also 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.800 did not matter how many of the people that she 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.800 loves and trust the most tell her she's fine. She 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.400 has to have the fans tell her if it's really 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.760 fine or not. I just like, you know, we asked Google, 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:51.400 did anyone tell you you would die? They said, and 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.319 I did. I then made my choice. You were there 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.600 with me. I'm proud of you. I didn't know they 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.040 told you that you couldn't do it. Oh oh man, um, well, 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:05.800 I'm glad you had fun in Lebanon. What is it Lebanon? 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:07.920 And and you know, I went to Nashville for like 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.360 the first because I came to Nashville once before to 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:16.640 hook up the microphones room. But I didn't go to 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.120 like Nashville proper, you know, like I went to like 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:21.840 I went down Broadway and did all that. I went 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.680 to the Country Music Hall of Fame. I really play time. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.800 So you've been here twice now and I've not seen Yes, 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.720 I've been in the state of Tennessee twice now. And 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.440 he did ask to hang not for the wedding. I 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.920 saw it on Instagram Story of my life. That's hard. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:39.840 By the way. I know we have a guest joining 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.520 us soon, but it's something when you see something on 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.760 Instagram that I'm not saying that. You know, she wasn't 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:50.559 actually expecting it to text Easton, but like Fomo when 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:52.319 some because there was someone that did come in for 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:53.880 the wedding that I was like, Oh, I'm kind of bump. 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.400 They didn't reach out to me. It's interesting what what like? 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.560 What that? Like? What is that? What is it for 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.080 you that? What social media does? You just feel left 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.640 out and you might make assumptions and you might like 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.040 feel away, But I think social media contributes to that 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:11.800 for sure. If we'd have social media, I wouldn't know, right. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:14.960 I mean, it's interesting because Easton did text me, was 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:16.360 like I'd like to see you, and I was like, oh, 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:18.400 that's so cool. And then when I saw like what 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.000 it was, I was like, oh, why didn't that person 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.760 text me? And She's like yeah, kind of like it 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.480 was the thought you wanted to see me. It's like that, 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.200 like I don't know, just does that make me? Yeah? 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.880 You know, I get that and something. So Katherine and 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:35.880 I were exchanging d M s, and something I really 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.160 appreciated from her was she's like, how long are you 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.080 in talent? And I'm like, Oh, we're just doing this wedding. 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:41.880 Then We're going back like oh, have fun. And I 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:43.760 feel like if I had said I'm in town for 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.400 until Tuesday, you would have been like, let's hang out. 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:48.559 I like to think that would have happened. Would have 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:49.880 I was going to see if you wanted to go 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:54.120 get coffee, Little coffee day. It would have been so fun. 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.439 But then I was like, Okay, we'll have fun. You're 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:58.800 got one more night here. Well, we're gonna come back 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.880 real soon because I'm in love with that place. It's 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:03.960 so great different time, it's so fun. I was. I 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:05.840 was texting Tanya rad two and I was like, oh 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.559 my god, you're in Franklin, And she's like, that is 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.480 the most precious little town, Like it looks like it 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.920 looked like her and her boyfriend had a great time too, which, 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.160 by the way, I'm she's someone, for example, that I 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.120 have been so rooting for, so like to see her 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.359 so happy after kind of the you know struggle that struggles, 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.040 but like that that you know, finding the one, and 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.120 it's just been like, I'm it's so nice to see 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.679 her so happy. It's so exciting. She's so happy and 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.240 he's such a cool guy. I'm just they're they're the best. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.680 I'm so happy for her. Nah, I love it. Well, 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:43.439 we have um a guest joining us um Katherine do 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.360 you want to give the rundown on this, uh this guest? Okay, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:52.880 so we have and lithe I'm really excited about this one. UM, 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:58.680 tell me more. Why Well, because she has So it's 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.439 like a support group where you get on it's a 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.640 support group and it's for betrayal, trauma recovery and a 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.040 podcast and all this good stuff. So it's basically for 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:15.720 people who have had, you know, trauma from abusive relationships physically, emotionally, UM, 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:20.199 sexual trauma. Very very interesting. So yeah, so is she 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.920 is she here? We have her in the waiting room, 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:24.400 so let's um, let's take a break and then we'll 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:39.800 get her on. Oh great, Hello, Hi, Hi Anne? Hi, 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:44.400 how are you? I'm great? How are you good? I'm Janna. 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:49.079 This is Catherine. Hi, how are you? And you um 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.960 your host of the Betrareal Trauma Recovery podcast, which I'm 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.920 very excited to start listening to. UM. And also you 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.920 you offer daily online support groups for women victims of 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.400 emotional abuse. UM. I'm just curious before we kind of 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.160 get into it, what is your background and how you 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.400 got into what you're now doing, Like was it from 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.080 a personal experience or I just I would love to 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.520 know that side first. Yeah, So I worked in the 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:18.800 porn Addiction UM porn anti porn movement for about ten 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:24.000 years and then my ex got arrested, well he was 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:28.440 my husband at the time, and UM. At that point 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.960 I quit all my jobs. I had been working with 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:37.199 other anti porn slash porn recovery UM communities, quit my 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.120 job and started studying abuse a lot. And then I 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.560 started seeing the overlay of these two things and thought, oh, 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:46.680 we need to be right here in the middle and 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.840 talk about this. So I started podcasting about that aspect 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.120 of it, and then women from all over the world 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.640 started contacting me, and then we got coaches and it 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:57.600 just kind of grew from there. So that's sort of 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.000 my I have a master's degree in education, so personal 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:08.000 experience plus was your ex also abusive? Uh huh yeah, yeah, 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:14.280 emotionally and psychologically abusive, which also is can be the like, 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.679 it's all awful, but it's just that for some reason 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:20.880 has such a hold. Yeah. And in terms of the 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:25.000 pornography use, UM, I had told him that are my relationship, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.320 that my sexual boundaries were no porn use, monogamy, you know, 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.120 stuff like that, which he happily agreed. To said that 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.960 that's what he wanted as well. And then um later 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.880 found out he was using porn, which people don't realize 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.520 the sexual coercion because I didn't I didn't have the 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:47.400 ability to consent under those circumstances. And so, um that 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:48.960 those are the types of things that I really like 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.400 talking about. Is that to him, he's got this addiction 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.840 and he has his problems and they're caused by whatever, 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.480 you know, and so to him it's like this is 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.720 these are the reasons for it. But to the victims, 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.240 the reasons don't really matter. The actual thing that they're 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.520 experiencing a sexual coercion, The actual thing they're experiencing a 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.800 psychological abuse if they don't know what their reality is, 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.520 if they don't know you know, oh, i'm I'm I'm 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.240 with a husband who has a double life, you know 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.080 that type of thing. Um, If he's looking straight at 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:20.680 her face and saying, no, I don't use parn I'm 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.760 not having an affair. Um, it's not just him acting 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:29.600 out in this addiction. It's also psychological abuse because she's like, oh, okay, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:31.400 you know, there's no way for her to fare it 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.320 out reality in that case, And um, so that that's 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.120 the betrayal traumor recovery kind of lives there and what 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:44.080 that actually means to a victim and how how that's 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.760 going to affect her and her self esteem and her 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.040 life and stuff like that. So it's more coming at 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.920 these issues from the woman the victims point of view 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.200 than the addics point of view. I have a question 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.560 around that, UM, And I like, I have to be 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:06.520 really careful with how I word certain things. UM. So 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:11.320 I I'm recently divorced an addict UM and you know, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:18.040 multiple affairs, and I think, UM, in my experience where 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:26.760 I have had a tough time with UM, the with 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.280 it with all of that is is where for all 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:34.200 those years just being made to feel crazy right, um 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.320 and to this day still not feeling like, um that 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.840 I'm still made to feel that way. Yeah, And I'm like, 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.080 but I'm like, I've sat with my theoris and like, 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.640 but I'm like, well, how does he not get that 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.600 he literally lied every day? Right? And it's a it's 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.280 like that it's at that weird. But then then I'm 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.800 the crazy Like it's it's very like I'm I'm having 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.200 like the that's like been the hardest thing for me too, 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.520 And I'm like, how does he hate me? Right? When 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.840 that was the life that like I was just you know, 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.359 it was an unsteady ground effort. I was lied too daily, 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:13.879 Like it was like a constant like warfare of lies, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.119 of manipulation and you know, deceit and miss you know, 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.600 distrust and like it. So it's like I'm trying to 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.440 like grieve and grow and heal and learn, but yet 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.280 I'm still trapped in certain areas around I think, more 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.760 so than the sub more than just like the manipulation 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.160 and abuse in the gas lighting. So DARVO is when 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.360 you deny the abuse and then you attack the victim, 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.520 and then there's r v O for DARVO, and then 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.240 you reverse the victim and offender role. So essentially, like 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.720 let's take a big case like Bill Cosby. That's a 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.960 easy one. So you've got multiple victims coming forth saying, hey, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.719 this is what happened, right, and instead of admitting to 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.520 it and apologizing and taking accountability and going to prison, 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.680 justify believe because of what he did, he denies what happened, 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.320 and he attacks the victims and then reverses the victim 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.920 and offender role and says, actually I'm the victim. I'm 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.320 the one who is being harmed because these women are 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.000 just trying to get money from me, or they're just 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.520 trying to ruin my reputation or whatever they're doing. Right, So, 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.439 I think in them in the general sense when it 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.560 comes to psychological abuse and emotional abuse, that's where women 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.320 get so confused because the abuser is never going to 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.520 admit there an abuser, and they're going to accuse the 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:39.200 victim of abuse. Also, they're going to say that the 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:44.760 victims response to the abuse like whoa, like these are 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.760 all the things that happened. Then they are gonna just say, no, 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.639 she's crazy, that didn't happen, those things aren't true, you 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:56.600 know whatever, to try and avoid accountability. So that is 0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:00.600 part of the abuse, and that's not often recognized. In fact, 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.479 it's hardly ever recognized. Instead, I would say the general 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.880 population and your running the mill, not not your therapist particularly, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.280 I just mean therapists in general. They'll be they'll hear 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.160 his side of the story and her side of the story, 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.520 and then they'll think, and again, this is assuming the 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.040 males the perpetrator and the females the victim. And I 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.000 know that's not always the case, but because that's the 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.040 population I work with, I'll talk in that gender segregated 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.119 way today. But you've got they think that the truth 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.520 is somewhere in the middle, and the truth is not 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.520 in the middle. The truth is that the victim is 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.359 telling the truth and the perpetrator is trying to get 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:39.680 out of accountability. And so the stories he's going to 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.000 tell in and of themselves are psychological abuse. So he's 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:49.119 able to manipulate in gaslight, therapists, clergy, friends, family, everyone 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.000 around you in order and they don't know it, but 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:58.320 they're unwittingly also abusing the victim by telling her she's crazy, 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.320 or you're blowing this out of purport shian or what. 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:03.240 He's an addict and now you're going to say you 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.560 were sexually coerced, right, or now you're gonna say this 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.560 about about him, And so I think it just gets 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.439 so muddled that it's hard to see that all of 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:19.359 that is abuse. And unfortunately, in the pornography addiction recovery community, 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.680 the abuse isn't really talked about as much as perhaps 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:25.600 the reason why he's an addict. You know, he was 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.600 blah blah blah, or he feel shame or you know, 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.560 some something like that. Um, And I just think that 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:36.600 that discredits victims so much because you know, victims feel shame, 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.600 Victims have had a hard time, victims, haven't you know, 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.080 victims have been through difficult things. And we don't cheat 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.120 on our husbands, we don't use porn. You know. It's 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.320 like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just take a step 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.800 back for a minute and just kind of consider this 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.879 whole picture of the fog of all of this and 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:58.880 what's really going on, because there are plenty of men 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.640 who have had that fildhoods who have felt shame, who 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.800 have um, you know done. I'll had had a hard 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.399 time in all different kinds of ways, and they cope 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.639 with it, maybe by eating ice cream, or maybe they 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.080 cope with it by going for a run. They don't 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:17.520 all not all men cope with shame by having an affair. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.520 They don't, and everybody feels shamed. So I think that 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.800 the pornography addiction recovery world does not help victims understand 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.639 the truth of what they're really experiencing. And that is 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.560 why I do what I do to try and shed 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.040 light on the abuse that's happening so that women can 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.640 get to safety sooner, um, regardless of how their situation 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.080 turns out, right, I mean, maybe he'll be like, oh, yeah, 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.119 this is abusive. I'm going to stop, you know. But UM, 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.680 I think it's important to really label it accurately. So 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:52.919 the abuser, whatever per cent of the time, is usually 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.160 not going to acknowledge that they're an abuser. They're going 0:21:56.200 --> 0:22:02.440 to gaslight, which is obviously a huge word now days. UM, 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.040 So how do you suggest, I mean, I know you 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:07.200 have these groups and you have, but what is your 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:12.440 recommendation for people for these victims to realize they're being 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.480 gas lit, to realize that it's abuse, and to set 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:23.199 boundaries to not allow that. That is really really hard. UM. 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.840 I think the hardest position to be in would be 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:30.560 the new wife of this guy. UM and I let's 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:32.719 talk about that for just a second. Then we can 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.800 step back to maybe the original victim if we want 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:41.679 to call it that, or the first victim. But what UM, 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.720 A new victim will here, like the second wife. Let's 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:51.120 call her fer a minute, healed, she was unhealthy. Um, 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.000 she she's just a gold digger. Maybe I'll say that, 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.520 maybe she'll say, Maybe he'll say, I it's true. I'm 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.159 not perfect. I've got problems. I hadn't a fair I 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:02.239 looked at something like that. He might say something like that, 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.200 but like she can't forgive. She's just really bitter and angry. 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:10.560 She hates men, she's a lesbian. They might hear that, um, 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:14.439 they might hear um all kinds of things, right, And 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.480 so this new victim doesn't realize that this is abuse 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.159 in and of itself, that she's already being abused, and 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:25.560 she thinks to herself, I'm not controlling. I'm kind and understand. 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:27.919 You know, she didn't understand me. She was controlling. Whatever. 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:32.320 I'm not controlling. I'm understanding, like I I empathize, Oh 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:34.200 I get it, like, oh, you went through this hard time. 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:38.679 I'm so sorry. So they start out this relationship not 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.200 they don't know it, but not feeling safe to say, hmm, 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:46.600