1
00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:08,160
Speaker 1: Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. Easton.

2
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,600
Speaker 1: I'm really bummed because I missed you in Nashville. You

3
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: were at Is it true that Ben Higgins got married?

4
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,479
Speaker 1: Ben Higgins got married? The Bachelor tied the knot, finally

5
00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,120
Speaker 1: tied the knot? Um? So where was it at? Tell

6
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:31,200
Speaker 1: us everything? It was at Reba McIntire's um former home her.

7
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:44,840
Speaker 1: It's Lebanon, rodeo drill. I've been saying Lebanon for a week.

8
00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:51,559
Speaker 1: We actually ins in your defense, Eastern Sorry, in Easten defense.

9
00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:58,880
Speaker 1: How's the bote slip um? In Easton's defense? Is it

10
00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 1: not Lebonon? Oh, it's Lebanon. That's so I've called it Lebanon. Wow,

11
00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,920
Speaker 1: Leon says the one person from National Exactly, I should

12
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,840
Speaker 1: ask me next time Lebanon go on man. Yeah. I

13
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,560
Speaker 1: don't know how much else I was mispronouncing now, but yeah,

14
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 1: it was this beautiful. You know, it was on like

15
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:19,640
Speaker 1: a body of water. And I don't know if it

16
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 1: was a lake or just are a bond, but it was.

17
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,800
Speaker 1: It was gorgeous. There's like four hundred people there, hundred people,

18
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 1: four people all this closest friends and family. They were

19
00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 1: all of Bachelor Nation, all of Bachelor Nations people, I

20
00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 1: don't what how many people do you have your wedding?

21
00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:47,240
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, Like I don't know, hud, it's expensive to

22
00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,400
Speaker 1: get married. How did you I had mine? My inlaws

23
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 1: made me invite like everyone I didn't even know. I mean,

24
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 1: there there was some drama with with with with you know,

25
00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 1: not inviting certain people. But at the same time, like

26
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 1: when you are paying for the wedding, like who's paying

27
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,160
Speaker 1: for four hundred people? Like that was like coming out

28
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 1: of my account. So I'm like, we're cutting the line man,

29
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,720
Speaker 1: like under eighty, Like, don't under it because it's like

30
00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,839
Speaker 1: it's expensive four hundred people. Oh yeah. It was so

31
00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,440
Speaker 1: crazy and I was really it was not televised because

32
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 1: I would have understood that. I'm right, People magazine got

33
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,880
Speaker 1: the exclusive. There are a lot of flowers, a lot

34
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,160
Speaker 1: of flowers, so just how many how much money four

35
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,000
Speaker 1: hundred people of flowers would be to feel like I was,

36
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,239
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was a high budget. Holy Holy. I

37
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,000
Speaker 1: thought there was gonna be like a sit down dinner thing.

38
00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 1: So I was all nervous because I'm like, I don't know.

39
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,440
Speaker 1: The only people I know from here are bachelor people

40
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 1: and they don't want to talk to me, you know.

41
00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,040
Speaker 1: They did, they were very nice, but they didn't do

42
00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,040
Speaker 1: a sit down dinner. They did like a buffet thing

43
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,239
Speaker 1: and then this big hall and everyone just kind of

44
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,800
Speaker 1: roamed around and you could get like pizza and pasta

45
00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 1: and just kind of hang out. That's because there was

46
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:06,280
Speaker 1: four hundred people. I sit down dinner for four Yeah, no, no,

47
00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 1: this was the way to do it. And everyone had

48
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 1: a really good time. There's lots of dancing. The band

49
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:17,120
Speaker 1: was great. Ben and Jess looked studying. Ben had thirteen groomsmen,

50
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: which I thought was really funny and cool. But when

51
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,079
Speaker 1: they came out, it was like a clown car, like

52
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:27,200
Speaker 1: the just more people kept coming down. She too, she

53
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,560
Speaker 1: had like eighty. It was it was uneven. So I'm

54
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 1: like a fan of that. I like the evenist. There's

55
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,960
Speaker 1: no way I could do that, really, that would drive

56
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 1: Thinking about that gives me anxiety. Why just looking it

57
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:49,920
Speaker 1: up there? Uneven? I can't like that really, yes, because

58
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 1: I think there's like I mean, I don't have like

59
00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 1: I have a very small queendom, so like and I

60
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 1: know in the past, like someone would want more, and

61
00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm like well, like I don't have like I'm going

62
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,760
Speaker 1: to start. I'm pulling people from like from from second

63
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,840
Speaker 1: people to be don't you remember me I went to

64
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:11,920
Speaker 1: kindergarten with you and be in my wedding. Thanks. But

65
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,400
Speaker 1: I mean now I feel like it's kind of cool

66
00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 1: and people are like screw it, like I'm going to

67
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,280
Speaker 1: have and now like I feel like i'd have like

68
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,960
Speaker 1: a queendom up there. You don't have a lot of people.

69
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,360
Speaker 1: I would have a lot of people. And I'm here

70
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 1: for it because now everyone's like rooting for happiness. Oh

71
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,719
Speaker 1: I can't wait to plan this, wait for fun. But

72
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 1: like it really that would bother you, like if it

73
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,040
Speaker 1: was set like I mean, I'll get over it. If

74
00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,360
Speaker 1: you can't, if you were a future groom cannot come

75
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,920
Speaker 1: up with the same amount, I'll get over it. Oh God,

76
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 1: I cant even think about that. I was gonna ask,

77
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,640
Speaker 1: is that going through your mind? Like, are you already

78
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,479
Speaker 1: picking up bridesmaids for okay, mark for the next one?

79
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,719
Speaker 1: I mean no, but like just again, it's just such

80
00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,720
Speaker 1: so weird. Like I was having this conversation with Katherine,

81
00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,120
Speaker 1: I was talking about something I'm like, I have not

82
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: like had a boyfriend, not saying I have a boyfriend.

83
00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like I'm not saying anything, but I'm

84
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 1: just saying. What I'm saying is what I'm saying. What

85
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying is is like, like what are you saying?

86
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,520
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is it's just a very weird thing,

87
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,280
Speaker 1: like to be you know, married for however seven something

88
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 1: year or you know six seven and seven together and

89
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,280
Speaker 1: it's like to them have to go do like never

90
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,640
Speaker 1: thinking that you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna meet someone's

91
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 1: parents or I'm gonna they're gonna meet my kids or

92
00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,720
Speaker 1: like someone else. It's like a very it's just strange.

93
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,119
Speaker 1: And so I would never think, given my Elizabeth Taylor

94
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,359
Speaker 1: background of marriages, that I would even think about it.

95
00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,359
Speaker 1: But now here's something. Laugh all you want, bitches, He's like,

96
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,640
Speaker 1: but here's the thing. Now Now I'm like, I feel

97
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 1: like because everyone is so invested in my love life,

98
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,640
Speaker 1: from friends to listeners, like I want to invite the

99
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 1: entire Wine down like viewership, like I think we all

100
00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,640
Speaker 1: are like rooting for like you're gonna have like a

101
00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,800
Speaker 1: hundred and thousands and thousand people I'm here for that.

102
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,159
Speaker 1: That would be so funny. That would be so much fun.

103
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,719
Speaker 1: Like I want an open bar for everybody. I don't

104
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 1: know the money, but for exactly what I'm saying, I've

105
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 1: don't have the money for it, but like if we

106
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 1: can get sponsors, if we can, like you know, like

107
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 1: figure it out, making a live podcast kind of thing,

108
00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:39,679
Speaker 1: podcasting while you gave birth. Just can't. I can't feel

109
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 1: my lives. I remember where I was listening to that podcast.

110
00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,560
Speaker 1: Where were you? I was in my car coming out

111
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 1: of therapy. Then my life is good. I think she's dying.

112
00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,760
Speaker 1: Table Yeah. She tells someone that I'm a hypochondriac. Am

113
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 1: I hypochondriac? I didn't say the words you're a hypochondriac.

114
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,760
Speaker 1: I said, you think you're going to die? Very often?

115
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 1: I do. It's true a hypochondriac. She does, like often

116
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,160
Speaker 1: she asked, am I going to die? I do ask?

117
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,040
Speaker 1: I take three Adavia while I die? And the person

118
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 1: that I said this too, was like, do you truly

119
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,360
Speaker 1: think you're gonna die? Or are you just saying that?

120
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 1: I think I have a fear of it because the kids,

121
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 1: so like every time I get on a plane, that's

122
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,120
Speaker 1: fair every time, I you know, but I mean obviously

123
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 1: like driving is. But and then I'm like, you're looking

124
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,800
Speaker 1: down at my phone. I'm like, what am I doing? Like?

125
00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 1: But I think I have a fear of the unknown,

126
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 1: of what is, Like like when I had when I

127
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,240
Speaker 1: walked around for step Strap for a month, I was like,

128
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm dying of cancer, like and I'm afraid of like

129
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,920
Speaker 1: the what what those those things that could happen. I

130
00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 1: think that's normal. I would have felt that way. I mean,

131
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 1: out really fast time out. This girl Catherine will do

132
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,440
Speaker 1: an entire body scan to make sure that she's not

133
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:14,800
Speaker 1: dying of something. So like, here's the difference. I just

134
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 1: like to know what's going on. But if I'm in

135
00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 1: a situation like taking three ad bills, I'm not going

136
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,360
Speaker 1: to ask Joe about very advill But I'm saying I

137
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,000
Speaker 1: think it was fair for you to be scared about.

138
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 1: But I did ask, thank you very much. That was terrifying.

139
00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 1: But I did ask about taking me in moxicillin with

140
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 1: wine because I'm obviously still in moxicillans. And it also

141
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,800
Speaker 1: did not matter how many of the people that she

142
00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,800
Speaker 1: loves and trust the most tell her she's fine. She

143
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 1: has to have the fans tell her if it's really

144
00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,760
Speaker 1: fine or not. I just like, you know, we asked Google,

145
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,400
Speaker 1: did anyone tell you you would die? They said, and

146
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,319
Speaker 1: I did. I then made my choice. You were there

147
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 1: with me. I'm proud of you. I didn't know they

148
00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 1: told you that you couldn't do it. Oh oh man, um, well,

149
00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm glad you had fun in Lebanon. What is it Lebanon?

150
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 1: And and you know, I went to Nashville for like

151
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 1: the first because I came to Nashville once before to

152
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:16,640
Speaker 1: hook up the microphones room. But I didn't go to

153
00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,120
Speaker 1: like Nashville proper, you know, like I went to like

154
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,840
Speaker 1: I went down Broadway and did all that. I went

155
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,680
Speaker 1: to the Country Music Hall of Fame. I really play time.

156
00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,800
Speaker 1: So you've been here twice now and I've not seen Yes,

157
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,720
Speaker 1: I've been in the state of Tennessee twice now. And

158
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,440
Speaker 1: he did ask to hang not for the wedding. I

159
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,920
Speaker 1: saw it on Instagram Story of my life. That's hard.

160
00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:39,840
Speaker 1: By the way. I know we have a guest joining

161
00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,520
Speaker 1: us soon, but it's something when you see something on

162
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 1: Instagram that I'm not saying that. You know, she wasn't

163
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,559
Speaker 1: actually expecting it to text Easton, but like Fomo when

164
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,319
Speaker 1: some because there was someone that did come in for

165
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 1: the wedding that I was like, Oh, I'm kind of bump.

166
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 1: They didn't reach out to me. It's interesting what what like?

167
00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,560
Speaker 1: What that? Like? What is that? What is it for

168
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,080
Speaker 1: you that? What social media does? You just feel left

169
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 1: out and you might make assumptions and you might like

170
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,040
Speaker 1: feel away, But I think social media contributes to that

171
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,800
Speaker 1: for sure. If we'd have social media, I wouldn't know, right.

172
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because Easton did text me, was

173
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 1: like I'd like to see you, and I was like, oh,

174
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,400
Speaker 1: that's so cool. And then when I saw like what

175
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,000
Speaker 1: it was, I was like, oh, why didn't that person

176
00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 1: text me? And She's like yeah, kind of like it

177
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,480
Speaker 1: was the thought you wanted to see me. It's like that,

178
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 1: like I don't know, just does that make me? Yeah?

179
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,880
Speaker 1: You know, I get that and something. So Katherine and

180
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 1: I were exchanging d M s, and something I really

181
00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,160
Speaker 1: appreciated from her was she's like, how long are you

182
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,080
Speaker 1: in talent? And I'm like, Oh, we're just doing this wedding.

183
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 1: Then We're going back like oh, have fun. And I

184
00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 1: feel like if I had said I'm in town for

185
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,400
Speaker 1: until Tuesday, you would have been like, let's hang out.

186
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:48,559
Speaker 1: I like to think that would have happened. Would have

187
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:49,880
Speaker 1: I was going to see if you wanted to go

188
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 1: get coffee, Little coffee day. It would have been so fun.

189
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,439
Speaker 1: But then I was like, Okay, we'll have fun. You're

190
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 1: got one more night here. Well, we're gonna come back

191
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: real soon because I'm in love with that place. It's

192
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,960
Speaker 1: so great different time, it's so fun. I was. I

193
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,840
Speaker 1: was texting Tanya rad two and I was like, oh

194
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,559
Speaker 1: my god, you're in Franklin, And she's like, that is

195
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 1: the most precious little town, Like it looks like it

196
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 1: looked like her and her boyfriend had a great time too, which,

197
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,160
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm she's someone, for example, that I

198
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 1: have been so rooting for, so like to see her

199
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,359
Speaker 1: so happy after kind of the you know struggle that struggles,

200
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 1: but like that that you know, finding the one, and

201
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 1: it's just been like, I'm it's so nice to see

202
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,679
Speaker 1: her so happy. It's so exciting. She's so happy and

203
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 1: he's such a cool guy. I'm just they're they're the best.

204
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,680
Speaker 1: I'm so happy for her. Nah, I love it. Well,

205
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,439
Speaker 1: we have um a guest joining us um Katherine do

206
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,360
Speaker 1: you want to give the rundown on this, uh this guest? Okay,

207
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 1: so we have and lithe I'm really excited about this one. UM,

208
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:58,680
Speaker 1: tell me more. Why Well, because she has So it's

209
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,439
Speaker 1: like a support group where you get on it's a

210
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 1: support group and it's for betrayal, trauma recovery and a

211
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 1: podcast and all this good stuff. So it's basically for

212
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:15,720
Speaker 1: people who have had, you know, trauma from abusive relationships physically, emotionally, UM,

213
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,199
Speaker 1: sexual trauma. Very very interesting. So yeah, so is she

214
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,920
Speaker 1: is she here? We have her in the waiting room,

215
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,400
Speaker 1: so let's um, let's take a break and then we'll

216
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:39,800
Speaker 1: get her on. Oh great, Hello, Hi, Hi Anne? Hi,

217
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 1: how are you? I'm great? How are you good? I'm Janna.

218
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,079
Speaker 1: This is Catherine. Hi, how are you? And you um

219
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 1: your host of the Betrareal Trauma Recovery podcast, which I'm

220
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,920
Speaker 1: very excited to start listening to. UM. And also you

221
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 1: you offer daily online support groups for women victims of

222
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,400
Speaker 1: emotional abuse. UM. I'm just curious before we kind of

223
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,160
Speaker 1: get into it, what is your background and how you

224
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,400
Speaker 1: got into what you're now doing, Like was it from

225
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,080
Speaker 1: a personal experience or I just I would love to

226
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,520
Speaker 1: know that side first. Yeah, So I worked in the

227
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,800
Speaker 1: porn Addiction UM porn anti porn movement for about ten

228
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 1: years and then my ex got arrested, well he was

229
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,440
Speaker 1: my husband at the time, and UM. At that point

230
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,960
Speaker 1: I quit all my jobs. I had been working with

231
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:37,199
Speaker 1: other anti porn slash porn recovery UM communities, quit my

232
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,120
Speaker 1: job and started studying abuse a lot. And then I

233
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,560
Speaker 1: started seeing the overlay of these two things and thought, oh,

234
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,680
Speaker 1: we need to be right here in the middle and

235
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,840
Speaker 1: talk about this. So I started podcasting about that aspect

236
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 1: of it, and then women from all over the world

237
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: started contacting me, and then we got coaches and it

238
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,600
Speaker 1: just kind of grew from there. So that's sort of

239
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,000
Speaker 1: my I have a master's degree in education, so personal

240
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 1: experience plus was your ex also abusive? Uh huh yeah, yeah,

241
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,280
Speaker 1: emotionally and psychologically abusive, which also is can be the like,

242
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,679
Speaker 1: it's all awful, but it's just that for some reason

243
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 1: has such a hold. Yeah. And in terms of the

244
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 1: pornography use, UM, I had told him that are my relationship,

245
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 1: that my sexual boundaries were no porn use, monogamy, you know,

246
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 1: stuff like that, which he happily agreed. To said that

247
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 1: that's what he wanted as well. And then um later

248
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,880
Speaker 1: found out he was using porn, which people don't realize

249
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,520
Speaker 1: the sexual coercion because I didn't I didn't have the

250
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:47,400
Speaker 1: ability to consent under those circumstances. And so, um that

251
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,960
Speaker 1: those are the types of things that I really like

252
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 1: talking about. Is that to him, he's got this addiction

253
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,840
Speaker 1: and he has his problems and they're caused by whatever,

254
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,480
Speaker 1: you know, and so to him it's like this is

255
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 1: these are the reasons for it. But to the victims,

256
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 1: the reasons don't really matter. The actual thing that they're

257
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,520
Speaker 1: experiencing a sexual coercion, The actual thing they're experiencing a

258
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 1: psychological abuse if they don't know what their reality is,

259
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 1: if they don't know you know, oh, i'm I'm I'm

260
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: with a husband who has a double life, you know

261
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 1: that type of thing. Um, If he's looking straight at

262
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 1: her face and saying, no, I don't use parn I'm

263
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 1: not having an affair. Um, it's not just him acting

264
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 1: out in this addiction. It's also psychological abuse because she's like, oh, okay,

265
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's no way for her to fare it

266
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 1: out reality in that case, And um, so that that's

267
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 1: the betrayal traumor recovery kind of lives there and what

268
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 1: that actually means to a victim and how how that's

269
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,760
Speaker 1: going to affect her and her self esteem and her

270
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 1: life and stuff like that. So it's more coming at

271
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 1: these issues from the woman the victims point of view

272
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,200
Speaker 1: than the addics point of view. I have a question

273
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 1: around that, UM, And I like, I have to be

274
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 1: really careful with how I word certain things. UM. So

275
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,320
Speaker 1: I I'm recently divorced an addict UM and you know,

276
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: multiple affairs, and I think, UM, in my experience where

277
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 1: I have had a tough time with UM, the with

278
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,280
Speaker 1: it with all of that is is where for all

279
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 1: those years just being made to feel crazy right, um

280
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 1: and to this day still not feeling like, um that

281
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 1: I'm still made to feel that way. Yeah, And I'm like,

282
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 1: but I'm like, I've sat with my theoris and like,

283
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,640
Speaker 1: but I'm like, well, how does he not get that

284
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 1: he literally lied every day? Right? And it's a it's

285
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 1: like that it's at that weird. But then then I'm

286
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,800
Speaker 1: the crazy Like it's it's very like I'm I'm having

287
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 1: like the that's like been the hardest thing for me too,

288
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,520
Speaker 1: And I'm like, how does he hate me? Right? When

289
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 1: that was the life that like I was just you know,

290
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 1: it was an unsteady ground effort. I was lied too daily,

291
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,879
Speaker 1: Like it was like a constant like warfare of lies,

292
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 1: of manipulation and you know, deceit and miss you know,

293
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 1: distrust and like it. So it's like I'm trying to

294
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,440
Speaker 1: like grieve and grow and heal and learn, but yet

295
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: I'm still trapped in certain areas around I think, more

296
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 1: so than the sub more than just like the manipulation

297
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,160
Speaker 1: and abuse in the gas lighting. So DARVO is when

298
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,360
Speaker 1: you deny the abuse and then you attack the victim,

299
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,520
Speaker 1: and then there's r v O for DARVO, and then

300
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,240
Speaker 1: you reverse the victim and offender role. So essentially, like

301
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 1: let's take a big case like Bill Cosby. That's a

302
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,960
Speaker 1: easy one. So you've got multiple victims coming forth saying, hey,

303
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,719
Speaker 1: this is what happened, right, and instead of admitting to

304
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,520
Speaker 1: it and apologizing and taking accountability and going to prison,

305
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,680
Speaker 1: justify believe because of what he did, he denies what happened,

306
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 1: and he attacks the victims and then reverses the victim

307
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,920
Speaker 1: and offender role and says, actually I'm the victim. I'm

308
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 1: the one who is being harmed because these women are

309
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 1: just trying to get money from me, or they're just

310
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 1: trying to ruin my reputation or whatever they're doing. Right, So,

311
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,439
Speaker 1: I think in them in the general sense when it

312
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 1: comes to psychological abuse and emotional abuse, that's where women

313
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 1: get so confused because the abuser is never going to

314
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 1: admit there an abuser, and they're going to accuse the

315
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,200
Speaker 1: victim of abuse. Also, they're going to say that the

316
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 1: victims response to the abuse like whoa, like these are

317
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 1: all the things that happened. Then they are gonna just say, no,

318
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,639
Speaker 1: she's crazy, that didn't happen, those things aren't true, you

319
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 1: know whatever, to try and avoid accountability. So that is

320
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 1: part of the abuse, and that's not often recognized. In fact,

321
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,479
Speaker 1: it's hardly ever recognized. Instead, I would say the general

322
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,880
Speaker 1: population and your running the mill, not not your therapist particularly,

323
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 1: I just mean therapists in general. They'll be they'll hear

324
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,160
Speaker 1: his side of the story and her side of the story,

325
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 1: and then they'll think, and again, this is assuming the

326
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,040
Speaker 1: males the perpetrator and the females the victim. And I

327
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,000
Speaker 1: know that's not always the case, but because that's the

328
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 1: population I work with, I'll talk in that gender segregated

329
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 1: way today. But you've got they think that the truth

330
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 1: is somewhere in the middle, and the truth is not

331
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: in the middle. The truth is that the victim is

332
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,359
Speaker 1: telling the truth and the perpetrator is trying to get

333
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,680
Speaker 1: out of accountability. And so the stories he's going to

334
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 1: tell in and of themselves are psychological abuse. So he's

335
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 1: able to manipulate in gaslight, therapists, clergy, friends, family, everyone

336
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: around you in order and they don't know it, but

337
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 1: they're unwittingly also abusing the victim by telling her she's crazy,

338
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 1: or you're blowing this out of purport shian or what.

339
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 1: He's an addict and now you're going to say you

340
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 1: were sexually coerced, right, or now you're gonna say this

341
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 1: about about him, And so I think it just gets

342
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,439
Speaker 1: so muddled that it's hard to see that all of

343
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:19,359
Speaker 1: that is abuse. And unfortunately, in the pornography addiction recovery community,

344
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: the abuse isn't really talked about as much as perhaps

345
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 1: the reason why he's an addict. You know, he was

346
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, or he feel shame or you know,

347
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: some something like that. Um, And I just think that

348
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 1: that discredits victims so much because you know, victims feel shame,

349
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 1: Victims have had a hard time, victims, haven't you know,

350
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 1: victims have been through difficult things. And we don't cheat

351
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,120
Speaker 1: on our husbands, we don't use porn. You know. It's

352
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 1: like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just take a step

353
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 1: back for a minute and just kind of consider this

354
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 1: whole picture of the fog of all of this and

355
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 1: what's really going on, because there are plenty of men

356
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,640
Speaker 1: who have had that fildhoods who have felt shame, who

357
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 1: have um, you know done. I'll had had a hard

358
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,399
Speaker 1: time in all different kinds of ways, and they cope

359
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 1: with it, maybe by eating ice cream, or maybe they

360
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: cope with it by going for a run. They don't

361
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: all not all men cope with shame by having an affair.

362
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: They don't, and everybody feels shamed. So I think that

363
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: the pornography addiction recovery world does not help victims understand

364
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: the truth of what they're really experiencing. And that is

365
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 1: why I do what I do to try and shed

366
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: light on the abuse that's happening so that women can

367
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,640
Speaker 1: get to safety sooner, um, regardless of how their situation

368
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: turns out, right, I mean, maybe he'll be like, oh, yeah,

369
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 1: this is abusive. I'm going to stop, you know. But UM,

370
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 1: I think it's important to really label it accurately. So

371
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 1: the abuser, whatever per cent of the time, is usually

372
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 1: not going to acknowledge that they're an abuser. They're going

373
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: to gaslight, which is obviously a huge word now days. UM,

374
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: So how do you suggest, I mean, I know you

375
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: have these groups and you have, but what is your

376
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: recommendation for people for these victims to realize they're being

377
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: gas lit, to realize that it's abuse, and to set

378
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: boundaries to not allow that. That is really really hard. UM.

379
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: I think the hardest position to be in would be

380
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: the new wife of this guy. UM and I let's

381
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,719
Speaker 1: talk about that for just a second. Then we can

382
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: step back to maybe the original victim if we want

383
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: to call it that, or the first victim. But what UM,

384
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: A new victim will here, like the second wife. Let's

385
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 1: call her fer a minute, healed, she was unhealthy. Um,

386
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: she she's just a gold digger. Maybe I'll say that,

387
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: maybe she'll say, Maybe he'll say, I it's true. I'm

388
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 1: not perfect. I've got problems. I hadn't a fair I

389
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,239
Speaker 1: looked at something like that. He might say something like that,

390
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: but like she can't forgive. She's just really bitter and angry.

391
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: She hates men, she's a lesbian. They might hear that, um,

392
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 1: they might hear um all kinds of things, right, And

393
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 1: so this new victim doesn't realize that this is abuse

394
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: in and of itself, that she's already being abused, and

395
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: she thinks to herself, I'm not controlling. I'm kind and understand.

396
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: You know, she didn't understand me. She was controlling. Whatever.

397
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm not controlling. I'm understanding, like I I empathize, Oh

398
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: I get it, like, oh, you went through this hard time.

399
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. So they start out this relationship not

400
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 1: they don't know it, but not feeling safe to say, hmm,

401
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, I actually am not controlling, but I don't

402
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with this situation because if they speak up,

403
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: then he'll be like, oh, don't be controlling, like my ex.

404
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: Don't be you know, Oh you're just like super high

405
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: maintenance woman or something, right, And so that is actually

406
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: where that abuse starts. But it's so subtle and it

407
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: feels like he's saying, you're amazing, You're incredible. I know

408
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: you would never be like her, and that is a

409
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: real big trap for women. So um, I don't know

410
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: how to recognize it at first, but one of the

411
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: biggest red flags are those types of things that a

412
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: man might say about a woman. Um. And one easy

413
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: way which nobody does because they think this X is crazy, right,

414
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: they think his former girlfriend is cuckoo, so they're like,

415
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk to her because she's wacko

416
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: because of what he told me. So UM, one way

417
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 1: is to talk to that woman to say, that's really interesting,

418
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: now that we're getting more serious, I'd actually like to

419
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: talk to your X. Can you give me your number?

420
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: I'd like to take her to lunch, um that is,

421
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: and and actually believe what she's telling you. That is

422
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: really hard when you're in love with someone and you

423
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: think he's amazing and you think everything's going well. But

424
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: I would say, um, if he's speaking badly about a

425
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: former husband or sorry, a former spouse or a former girlfriend,

426
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: that is a really big That would be probably one

427
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: of the biggest first red flags. I think the other

428
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: thing is just know that like the grooming part is

429
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: part of the abuse. So this is what I'd like

430
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: to educate women about. So you're in a relationship, you

431
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: think it's amazing, and you hear these horror stories and

432
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: you think, oh, well, I'm so glad you'd never do that.

433
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: He's so understanding and you know, wonderful, and he's not

434
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: that kind of guy. So with abuse, the grooming parts

435
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: are abusive. When he puts on that show of like, hey,

436
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: I'm amazing, you're amazing, our relationship is good, I'm healthy, la,

437
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: that is abuse in and of itself. That's a lot

438
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: of women will think of, like Jacqueline Hyde, right, like, oh,

439
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: he's amazing, and then we have this like bad week

440
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: and it's so weird and I don't know what's going

441
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: on and I'm so confused. So they kind of go

442
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: back and forth. They might find porn, or they might

443
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: find out he's been having an affair and be like, wow,

444
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: this is so weird, like what what is happening? And

445
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: it's really confusing and he seems sort of like jecklen Hyde.

446
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: Then they don't realize that both of those sides to

447
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: him are the abuse. So when a woman is thinking, oh,

448
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: this is so great, he's still understanding, you know whatever,

449
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: take a little bit of a step back and consider

450
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: is what I'm experiencing a true, healthy, loving, partnered relationship.

451
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: Does he actually see me as an equal? Does he

452
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: actually see our relationship um as a partnership? Or am

453
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: I being exploited and groomed? And in order to find

454
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: out if that's the case, you have to take a

455
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: little bit of a step back and be willing to,

456
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: you know, set a few boundaries, tell them how you

457
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: really feel, you know, things like that, and it takes

458
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: a lot of time. So I always tell women to

459
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: slow down a little bit, you know, like, don't just

460
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: jump right into relationships. Try to take it a little

461
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: bit slow so that you can see. But sometimes there's

462
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: just no way to see the um, the ugly side

463
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: of the abuse. The only thing you can see is

464
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: that grooming side for a while, because they're not going

465
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: to show that side until they feel like they have

466
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: complete control. So, you know, red flags are tough. It's

467
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: I think more than that, just giving women permission to

468
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: know that they might miss them and it's okay, it's

469
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: all right, But when they start seeing them, like pay

470
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: attention and then don't feel bad, don't don't get down

471
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: on yourself. Don't be like, oh, why didn't I see it?

472
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: You know, because some of these guys are really really

473
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: good at it and and seeing it. It's going to

474
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: be hard, and it's not your fault. Right If if

475
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: we tell women you should have seen the signs, you

476
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: should have known you were being lied to, you know,

477
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: you should have done this, then that's a form of

478
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: victim blaming, right. So as as prepared as we try

479
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: to be, as educated as we try to be, there's

480
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: it's just kind of a crapshoot at times, and I think, um,

481
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: just giving victims grace to know it's okay, we've all

482
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: done it, we've all been there, we might all do it,

483
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: and you know, but at least we know what we're

484
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: looking at later down the road if we're educated. What

485
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: if you get out of an abusive relationship, whatever that

486
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: abuse looked like, and m there's still a form of

487
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: abuse there, or abuse between friends or abuse, but you know,

488
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: whatever it may be. But let's say you're not in

489
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: that marriage anymore and there's there's still a form of abuse.

490
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: How do you I mean, obviously boundaries are important, but

491
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: how do you try and get past that? Like, I

492
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: just think it's such a hard It can just take

493
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: control of your life. So it's like, how do you

494
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: get past that? How do you set up those boundaries

495
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: to not allow that abuse to come in? That's really hard.

496
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: I think a very common myth about abusive relationships is

497
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: that divorces the solution, or breaking up as a solution,

498
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: and it is in some ways. If you do not

499
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: share child run with this person. Once the divorce is final,

500
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: or even before the divorce is final, you can institute

501
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: no contact boundaries. You can block them on your phone,

502
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: you can you can never talk to that person again

503
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: if you choose to. You can block their friends and family.

504
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: Have you guys heard of the term flying monkeys? You

505
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: know that term? Okay, So that would be the people

506
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: who believe his side of the story, and in doing

507
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: that they perpetuate the abuse. Um accidentally, right, they don't

508
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: know that they're doing that, but they're so um when

509
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: when you share children so so so not sharing children,

510
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: I guess some people are think of their dogs or

511
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: their pets, maybe in that same that same category where

512
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: they like share custody of a dog or something. So

513
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: Apart from that, I would say, um, if you're in

514
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 1: that situation, if you can't get new kids, um, I'm

515
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: not a dog person, so I don't want to say

516
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: to all these people who love their dogs, just get

517
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: a new dog. Maybe that sounds super harsh. Um, but

518
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: if you if you can go on contact. If you can't,

519
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: then you are going to be a victim of abuse

520
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: for a long time. Now. Being a victim of abuse

521
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: is a really interesting term. People don't like it. They

522
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: don't they like a lot of people prefer survivor. And

523
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: for women who share children, they haven't survived anything. It's

524
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: like they're still on the Titanic. The Titanic is still sinking,

525
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 1: you know, they haven't actually walked to dry ground. So

526
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: I actually like the word victim in that case. The

527
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: survivor sort of implies that it's over right. So for perpetual,

528
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: ongoing victims of abuse who share children, who are pretty

529
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: good at setting boundaries, it is just a tough road

530
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: like period, and so it's really important to learn what

531
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: boundaries you can set, what you can do. And then

532
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: the awesome thing is the farther along you get in

533
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: your healing and the stronger you get and the more

534
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: confident you get the um, the more the fog will lift.

535
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: And so you'll still actually be experiencing abuse, right, I'll

536
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: still be lying, you'll still be gas lighting, You'll still

537
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: have people meet you who think you're crazy. That will

538
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: still happen. But because the fog has lifted and you're

539
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: healed and you feel confident, um, it's it doesn't harm

540
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: you as much. So an example that I give is,

541
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: maybe before you've realized what's happening, he's stepping on your

542
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: foot all the time, just to use a metaphor, and

543
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: other people are stepping on your foot all the time,

544
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: and you're you're learning and you're growing, and you're asking

545
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: him not to step on your foot, and you're saying, hey,

546
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: this hurts, don't step on my foot. But then later

547
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I just buy steel toad boots. You

548
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: buy your still toad boots, you put them on. He's

549
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: still you know, comes to a family function or something

550
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: happens and he comes over and he steps on your

551
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: foots that's what he's gonna do, but it's not gonna

552
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: hurt as much. You're just gonna be like whatever, you know,

553
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: and he is going to be like, this doesn't work anymore. Man,

554
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: I'm trying to step on her foot, but she doesn't react.

555
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: She doesn't like, I'm not getting what I like out

556
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: of this, and he'll stop stepping on your foot, hopefully eventually.

557
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: That's the theory. I've been divorced for six years now,

558
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: and uh, he's still trying to step on my foot.

559
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: So so I'm hoping eventually that will subside. But it's

560
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: something that society doesn't really understand. It's something that society

561
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: still thinks, like, well, they're divorced, what's wrong with her?

562
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: Why can't she forgive? Or why can't she just move on?

563
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: Or something like that. And I think it's because they

564
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: don't recognize she's still being actively victimized. Um, she's still

565
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: being lied to, she's still being gas lit. And unless

566
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: that stops, it's gonna be pretty hard for her to

567
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: like want to be in the same room with him.

568
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: It's gonna be pretty hard for her not to bristle

569
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: a little bit. I mean, nobody would say to a

570
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: rape victim who had been raped on the street by

571
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: a stranger, Um, what's wrong with her? Why can't she

572
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: talk to this stranger? You know? Everyone's like, oh, I

573
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: get it, I get it. But then when it comes

574
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: to someone who's been abused by their husband for ten

575
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: years and finally realize what's happened, and then sudden she's

576
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: supposed to be able to be in the same room

577
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: with him, like and through all the sexual coccersion and stuff,

578
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: And I'm like, that's a lot of pressure to put

579
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: on victims. The abuser doesn't mind. The abuser wants that interaction,

580
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: they want the chaos, They like causing that pain to her.

581
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: So they're not in a hurry to move on anytime

582
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: soon in terms in terms of just causing chaos in

583
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: her life. And um, they'll look really happy and smiley

584
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: and you know during the thing. So so it's hard.

585
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: You're I'm seeing are you okay? She's having a hard

586
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: time this, this is what you're going through. I needed

587
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: to hear. Sorry, you didn't sign up for this today

588
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: or did you? Did you know you were signing up

589
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: for me? It's good taken out. It was interesting when

590
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: you touched on all the different types of abuse, you know,

591
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: the grooming that all of the I think people just

592
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: see abuse as either physical or emotional, like plain and

593
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: simple that's all there is. And I think, um, I

594
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: think it's people need to to hear that and to

595
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: know that there's all forms of abuse and it's you know,

596
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: it can happen at any point. I think the part

597
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: that's hard for people to understand is that physical abuse

598
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: doesn't happen in a silo. So if you've been physically assaulted,

599
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: you have also been emotionally abused and psychologically abused, Like

600
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: the things I'm talking about happening every emotionally abusive relationship,

601
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: in every psychologically abusive relationships. So if people think of

602
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: abuse as this thing right here and then they're like, well,

603
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: he's nice to her and he's super cool and he's

604
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: educated and you know whatever there, they don't know that

605
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: that is that's abuse, that's what it is. They just

606
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: they've only been educated and not like like this much,

607
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: and so they think the abuse is just this one

608
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: little part and they don't realize that that's actually every

609
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: abuse victims experience. I don't mean the details are all

610
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: the same. I don't mean that the situations are the same,

611
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: but I do mean that, Um, we interact with abusive

612
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: men all the time, and we don't know because of

613
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: these other parts of it, right of the grooming and

614
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: all the other parts. And um, that's also why they

615
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: continue to get away with it because people listen to

616
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: them and think, Oh, what a poor guy. This is

617
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: so sad. I feel so bad for him, and they

618
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: don't recognize that he is literally the typical abuser, Like

619
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: he's not some special case. He's not, um, he's not

620
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: like a good abuser, or he's not like you know,

621
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe that. What I'm trying

622
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: to say is that's just abuse. That's what it looks like.

623
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: And UM, people really don't want to think that the

624
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: person that they know, that they've known for a long

625
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: time is an abuser. There's there's a very heavy weight

626
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: to the word abuser that people feel really uncomfortable with

627
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: because it's it's awful to be in a victim because

628
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: you think like, I didn't think I was like that.

629
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: I didn't think I'd ever put up with that, you know,

630
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And then it's awful to also

631
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: think like, oh, is he ever going to change? Like

632
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: is he ever going to be able to have um,

633
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: like a healthy life? You know, questions like that that

634
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: are really hard to wrap our heads around and you know,

635
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: we don't have the answers to those questions yet, so um,

636
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 1: but for victims, it's there's no way to know. So

637
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: I just don't want women to blame themselves or to

638
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: feel bad but they didn't see it coming. Yeah, what

639
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: do you do with um? Like um, like wanting to

640
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: keep the peace for the kids, but also it's you

641
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: want to have good boundaries, but then also you want

642
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 1: to have um family functions together and be a family,

643
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: and but yet that usually ends having like emotional warfare

644
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: with myself. How do you how do you handle like

645
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: doing both those things when both can be when they're

646
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: both I don't know. I guess that how do you

647
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: how do you how can you do both? Or like

648
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: how do you separate? Or because you know, the kids,

649
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: My kids are my life, you know, I always want

650
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: them to be happy, and is there a way to

651
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: be able to separate the past or you know, because

652
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: to them the past has is done and that's in

653
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: my experience, they say that's the past, like now we're

654
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: here now, like get over it? Um? And how old

655
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: are your kids? Six and three? Yeah? Um? The cool

656
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: thing is you get to decide, You get to navigate

657
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: this in a way that works for you, and it's

658
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: going to take you some time to figure out what

659
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: you really like and what really brings you peace your goal.

660
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: But I don't want to be the bitch. I don't

661
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: want to be there, like, so it's like I'm like

662
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: trying to be kind and like, oh, yeah, you can

663
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: come like but but then it's like how it feels later,

664
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: It doesn't It doesn't feel good knowing that. I still

665
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: feel like I still want the apology, even though in

666
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: my experience that person has said, you know, I've apologized

667
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: a million times, but I'm like, but you really haven't

668
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: like to your in the true empathy, right, So let's

669
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: talk about the I don't want to make him mad

670
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: or I don't want to appear crazy, or I don't

671
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: want to appear to be you know this awful like

672
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: raunchy woman that for me, Yeah, exactly. So on that note,

673
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: I remember one day I said to my mom, like,

674
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: I can't write in that he's gonna get mad, and

675
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: she was awesome and said, and of course you can.

676
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: He's mad anyway, and I was like, oh, like, no

677
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,439
Speaker 1: matter what I do is gonna get mad. So I'm

678
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: just gonna be myself like that. For me, that was like,

679
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: oh done. You know, not that I did that after that,

680
00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: but just realizing that this um trying to avoid being

681
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: the difficult woman, trying to appear to be the ideal

682
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: woman that society wants you to be, which means that

683
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: apparently you smile and you know whatever it is you're

684
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: supposed to do is abuse in and of itself, right,

685
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: So when you think those things to yourself, I can't

686
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: say what I really think. I can't have what I

687
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: really want, I can't um be safe in my own home,

688
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it is, And this is going to

689
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: be a journey for you. So I'm not trying to

690
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: say like I don't have any answers for you. So

691
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: I hope that that comes across that this is just

692
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 1: sort of more of a brainstorming type of idea. But um,

693
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: maybe consider that sometimes those things that are keeping you

694
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: from saying, like I really actually don't want him to

695
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: come over. I would have a better time and I

696
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: would feel closer to my kids, and I would feel

697
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: more peace if he didn't come over. And I don't

698
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: feel comfortable me he's here and I don't like it,

699
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: and think and that's okay, that's okay. Why why is

700
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: the victims so or the why why is the person

701
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: so afraid of the reaction of the of the person

702
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 1: of the other person, Because because it's abuse, because he

703
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: has abused you to the point where you don't want

704
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: to do that thing. I mean, think about the control

705
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: that that wields. Right your own internal dialogue that you

706
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: have that you did not know was the abuse talking.

707
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: It's not actually you talking, it's the abuse talking. And

708
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: it's not just from him, by the way, It's from

709
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: a lot of different men. It's from a lot of

710
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: different things going on. Right. So women have accidentally, like

711
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: sort of um absorbed this misogyny from all over the

712
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: place and are now like, wait a minute, wait a minute,

713
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: who am I and what do I want? Now? That's

714
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: why I say this is a personal journey, because you

715
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: might find that you actually, um like it better. It's

716
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: better for you, it's better for your kids, even though

717
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: it might be uncomfortable. You might think, Okay, even though

718
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: I know these abusive even though I know these things

719
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: are gonna happen and I'm gonna get a little hurt. Um,

720
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: I would prefer that he come over for these other reasons. Right, So,

721
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: so one of the things I encourage victims to do

722
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: is maybe like journal a little bit, right, some pros

723
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: and cons. Here are all the pros of doing this thing.

724
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: Here are all the cons of doing this thing right.

725
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: And then also write the results of what happens in

726
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: an experiment a little because one thing an abuser doesn't

727
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: want you to do is they don't want you to experiment.

728
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: They don't want to they don't want you to tell

729
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: them what you really think. Um. They want to be

730
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: able to do what they want, regardless of how it

731
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: makes you feel. So considering like how do I feel?

732
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: Do I feel comfortable those types of things, and start

733
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: asserting yourself in different ways depending on how you feel.

734
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: And again, there aren't any right or wrong answers here,

735
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: but um, I just want women to consider that all

736
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: these things holding them back from saying I'm not comfortable,

737
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: I don't want this. Um no, you can't come over.

738
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: Whatever the thing is is a lot of the time

739
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: it's abuse. I'm so proud of my seven year old

740
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: daughter who um says I'm uncomfortable. I am not comfortable

741
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: with this all the time now, And it can be

742
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: anything and she's like, I don't feel comfortable, and even

743
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: to me sometimes I'm like, hey, let's go for a walk,

744
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: and she'll say, Mom, I'm not comfortable. I need a

745
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: jacket or whatever. You know, it's just whatever, And I

746
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: think good for you. Like being able to express what

747
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: you're comfortable with is part of abuse as healing from this,

748
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: because that is part of coming back to yourself, and

749
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: it takes time to figure out what you really want

750
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: and what you don't really want. And I know a

751
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: lot of women who are able to Um, I'm not

752
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: like this, so I just want to put that out there.

753
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: But UM, a lot of women who are able to

754
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: do family functions with their abusers, and they choose to

755
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: do that knowingly, knowing the pros and cons. I am,

756
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't. I blocked him on my phone.

757
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: I blocked him on my email. I only contact mine

758
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 1: through our family wizard if we're in the same room.

759
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: I do not speak to him. UM, and I feel

760
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: more comfortable at my so just depending on and I

761
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: don't care. Like at this point he's like, oh, she

762
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 1: won't speak to me, and then he'll tell people. You know,

763
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: I like, I walked in and Um, he doesn't speak

764
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: to me either, so that's fine. But if he if

765
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: he lied and told someone, yeah, well we're in the

766
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: same room and I tried to talk to her and

767
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: she wouldn't say anything something like that, Um, that would

768
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: be true. But also I'm okay with that. I'm like, yeah,

769
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk to him because every time

770
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: I talked, literally every time I have talked to him,

771
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: which has maybe been four times in the last six

772
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: years or I don't know, you know, six times, he's

773
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: lied to my face. Like right then, every like, there

774
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: has not been a time when he hasn't lied to

775
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: my face. Here's an example. I was at a parent

776
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: teacher conference. I walked over to him and said, you

777
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: cannot be at my parent teacher conference. You need to

778
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: make your own appointment. And he said, no, this is

779
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: my appointment. And I was like no, because I know

780
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: I made the appointment, right, so I know he's gaslighting me.

781
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: So I'm like, no, if that's not true, this is

782
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: my appointment. And he's like, no, it's mine. I made it.

783
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I said, you're lying, I know it's

784
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: my appointment. You cannot come to my appointments and then

785
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: I walked off, and then later in the hall, he

786
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: came up and put his hand on my shoulder, all

787
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: nice and said, UM, and I just I just wish

788
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: we could get along. I got the nicest you know

789
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: look on his face, and I said, we will never

790
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: get along until you tell the truth, you take accountability,

791
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: and you clean up your mess. Goodbye, And I just

792
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: walked off. But I'm like, I'm I'm not I'm not

793
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: going to try to get along with you. You lie

794
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: to my face every time I talked to you. Um,

795
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: your emails are full of lies, your messages are full

796
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,439
Speaker 1: of lies. I have no desire to like pretend like

797
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: it's okay now. I feel comfortable there with my personality

798
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: and like the you know stuff I have going on,

799
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: and a lot of other women they don't feel comfortable there,

800
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: like they wouldn't like that, so they so the cool

801
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: thing about UM healing is that you get to discover

802
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: how you feel, how you want to do it. And

803
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: there are women I respect so much and I think

804
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: they're doing it right and they don't do it like

805
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: I do, which is fine, um so, but I but

806
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: I just want to give women permission to do it. However,

807
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: they want. You know, if you don't want to talk

808
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: to them, you can tell them to your face or

809
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: to his face, or you don't have to Actually, don't

810
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: do this if you don't want to talk to him.

811
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: If you don't want to talk to someone, don't go

812
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: up to them and tell them you don't want to

813
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 1: talk to them. I always think that's pretty funny. If

814
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: you don't want to talk about just block them on

815
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: your phone, you know, like like you and let them

816
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: say what they're gonna say. That gives me like hives though,

817
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: because I'm just so afraid of reactions, Like it's just

818
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: literally gives me like from from anybody, from anybody in

819
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: my past, Like I'm afraid of their reaction. And I

820
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 1: know that stems from my past abuse relationships, but I

821
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: just still like, I don't know, I'm I just always

822
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: want to keep the peace, and you know, and and

823
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: that is the effect of abuse, and that's the purpose

824
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: of abuse, and that's the effect, right. The purpose of

825
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 1: the abuse is um get a woman to do something

826
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: she's uncomfortable with, and if she doesn't do it, make

827
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: everybody thinks she's crazy and punish her for it. Essentially,

828
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: that's what abuse is So when you say it gives

829
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: me high, is because I don't want to, you know, like,

830
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: I don't want to be yelled at or whatever he does.

831
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to cause problems, right, that kind of

832
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: a thing. That is the abuse talking. Now, I'm not

833
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: saying that you should do it. That's again it's up

834
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: to you, but just remember that a lot of these

835
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: things that you're thinking is that is actually the abuse,

836
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 1: and the effect that it's trying to get is for

837
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: you to comply. Um. I have a coin for abuse victims.

838
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: It's awesome, and on one side it says I will

839
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: not comply and it's not gonna feel good to go

840
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: against an abuser because you're gonna get flat back, right.

841
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: So a lot of women we'll be like, well, it

842
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: just didn't feel right, and I felt really uncomfortable and

843
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: I just I got high, you know whatever. Like it's

844
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: just like the most awful feeling in the world because

845
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: you do not want to do it, um, and you

846
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: don't have to, but you there are ways of not

847
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: complying safely that you might feel comfortable with that you

848
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 1: might discover and say, Okay, well, I don't want to

849
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: really want to say this to his face because I'm

850
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: really nervous, but I know he's going to be here

851
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: and I know he's gonna show up, So instead of

852
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: saying anything about it, I think I'm actually just going

853
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: to pack up the car and go, you know, and

854
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: I won't be around um or other methods of not

855
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: complying that aren't so obvious to him maybe or maybe

856
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: aren't so in his space. UM So that you can

857
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: start getting out of your own head when it comes

858
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: to abuse and separate that out so that he's not

859
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: still abusing you in your head. Like I find the

860
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: abuse victims are still abused in their head by their

861
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: abuser years after, even though he's not saying anything to them. Well,

862
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: it's probably just from all the mental or the you know,

863
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 1: the verbal abuse from years prior that they just I know,

864
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 1: in my past, like I've I've believed those things from

865
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: my past, abusers have been like, oh, well they said

866
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm this, so I'm that right. They said I'm crazy,

867
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: and I guess I'm crazy. They said I'm not worth it, Okay,

868
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,479
Speaker 1: then I guess I'm not, you know, and the next

869
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: person and that's a kind of curious for the next time,

870
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: Like how do you, you know, because of my past situations,

871
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: like how how do I allow? Because it's almost like

872
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I allow, like I'm afraid to

873
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 1: like let let myself be happy. Yeah, yeah, that will

874
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: just take time. I think that's how I was like

875
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: that for well too. I think all all abuse victims

876
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: go through this like agoraphobic kind of a thing where

877
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: you're like you don't want to move or do anything

878
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: or go out of the house because it's everything feels

879
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: really scary, right, And that's like the safety and stabilization

880
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: phase where you're just trying to get to safety. You're

881
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's going on, and then when

882
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: you can take a breath, like okay, it's not my

883
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 1: face all the metaphorically in my I said, I did

884
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: that with my first abuser back in l A. I

885
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: remember I didn't leave the department for about a month,

886
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: and then when I did, I had a panic attack,

887
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: like m but because that my that the two thousand

888
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: square foot apartment was the only safety I felt like

889
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 1: I had, and then I got out, I was like,

890
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 1: oh God, where is he? You know, I'm just like, yeah,

891
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 1: it's scary. Yeah. So the second phase is grieving and

892
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 1: processing because then you have to look at what happened

893
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 1: with a new paradigm and recognize like and you have

894
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: to process. You have to reprocess everything. So if you're

895
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: if you're looking at everything like this and suddenly you

896
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 1: put new glasses on and everything like, oh all these

897
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: times he was nice to me, that was rooming, right,

898
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: then you have to process all that sort of over

899
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: again with a new light and um. Like like a

900
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: lot of women asked, like, so he never really loved me?

901
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: For example, Well they'll say they never really loved you

902
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: to exactly like he did at first, but then I

903
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: don't love it was in love, pover loved you or something, yeah, exactly.

904
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: Let's say he didn't ever say I never really loved you.

905
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 1: Let's say I did. Let's say he says I love

906
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: I did love you. I loved you so much, you

907
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 1: were amazing, but then I realized what you were really like,

908
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: or you know, something like abusive like that, and you're

909
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: reprocessing that, um, abusive men can't actually love. So it's

910
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: not that women aren't lovable. We're absolutely lovable. Like you

911
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 1: guys are gorgeous. I'm gorgeous. We're fun we're crazy. That's crazy. Responsible?

912
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: Am I crazy? I don't know, I have. I have

913
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: so much to work on, you know. But I mean

914
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: also I did, Yeah, you're you're fine, You're you're fine,

915
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 1: you don't deserve abuse. But I will say though too,

916
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: like I know in my past relationships, like I've said

917
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: some really mean things too. Like I I can also

918
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: be like, oh I was that was verbally abusive, calling

919
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: someone in a hole or being like you're you know,

920
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: so it's like and in that I'm like, well, it's

921
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,879
Speaker 1: a spade a spade. Then like then I'm just being

922
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: cattle black. Like if if I'm saying, well, you're an

923
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: a hole, I don't know, so then I just character

924
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,359
Speaker 1: So then I discredit the other abuse because I'm like, well,

925
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: I I also called him an asshole? Right, Um, I

926
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: would disagree with you. And the reason I disagree is

927
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: because um, abuse is exploitation at the core, So they

928
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: actually that the behaviors have our goal oriented, okay, and

929
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: they're exploited. They're exploitative in nature. So essentially, you're not

930
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: falling in love with a person you're following. You're following

931
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: in love with if you're an abuser you're following. You're

932
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,919
Speaker 1: falling in love with what that person can do for you.

933
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: So they're going to give you sex, they're going to

934
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,879
Speaker 1: give you they're going to look good at parties, you know.

935
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying saying women can't can't do this.

936
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: Women can do this for sure. But the core of

937
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: abuse is exploitation. So when I say he he actually

938
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: didn't love you, but not because you're not lovable, It's

939
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: because what he loved was what you could do for him,

940
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: not actually you as an individual person, right as like

941
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 1: like he respecting you, respecting what you want, respecting your wishes,

942
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: respecting who you are. He groomed you to think that

943
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: at first, but then after a while you realize, like,

944
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 1: actually he doesn't care. You know, uh, he really doesn't care. Um.

945
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: So when women are like, oh, man, I swore at him,

946
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: or you know, I did whatever whatever it is, they

947
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: feel really guilty about. I want them I want to

948
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: ask the question, were you doing that because it was

949
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:08,280
Speaker 1: your motivation exploitation or was your motivation safety and truth?

950
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: Because I have found that most women they come at

951
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 1: that and they they they're calling him names, or they're

952
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 1: swearing or whatever. They're doing. Their motivation is actually safety.

953
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: They're like, you hurt me and I am trying to

954
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: figure this out and I am angry and I am frustrated.

955
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's abuse. I you might say

956
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: things you regret, you might not be like fantastic, but

957
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: I don't think that the core of that when it

958
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: comes to a woman who is hurt, is to exploit.

959
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: I think her core she is looking for safety and

960
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 1: she's trying to defend herself. Um, And I don't know

961
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: if that's true, but no, I hear you, and I absolutely,

962
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: Like I always say, like when I talked to my

963
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: therapist therapist about it, I I always say like, yeah, like

964
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: I you know it was I didn't feel safe and

965
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: all those situations. But I I'm curious. But then what

966
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: it would if that person then says, well, I had

967
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: my own stuff, in my own shame, so this is

968
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: why I did X, Y and Z. So then it's

969
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: like is that just then two again to like two

970
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: people that just like I was reacting to his to

971
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 1: what he did, and he's reacting because of his own

972
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: shame and his own stuff, right, And that is where, um,

973
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: you know, when I feel shame. Ice cream Okay, okay, okay, right,

974
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: I know I'm just trying to make it. I'm trying

975
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: to make like not an excuse, but like I'm trying

976
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: to like, I don't know, you've got you've got abuse,

977
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: So abuses here, right, Abuse lives here. And abuse has

978
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: no purpose, no um reason, has no excuse. The what

979
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: it wants is to exploit someone else and to control them. Okay.

980
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: And then you have someone who is looking for safety

981
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: and truth and trying to defend themselves they do. Their

982
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 1: purpose is not to exploit. Their purposes not to control.

983
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: Their purpose is not to um, you know, subvert somebody else.

984
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: The purpose is for an actual partnered relationship. They're looking

985
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 1: for truth. They're looking to be equal with that other person.

986
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: An abuser never wants to be equal. When it gets

987
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:26,399
Speaker 1: close to being equal, they'll lie, they'll manipulate, they'll do

988
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: something so that you can't be on equal ground. If

989
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: someone is lying to you right there, Let's say they're

990
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 1: using pornography, and pornography is not it is outside your

991
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: sexual boundaries. Let's say, okay, and so they know that

992
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: if they told you everything that they do sexually, that

993
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: you would be on equal ground. You would know them

994
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: like as they are, and then you would be able

995
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: to make a decision as to whether or not you

996
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: wanted to be in that relationship. On equal ground. You

997
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,919
Speaker 1: could say, oh, this is who you are. Okay, well

998
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: you shine on you be you. I'm not into that.

999
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 1: Thanks for letting me know. I'm out right. There's no

1000
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: threat to that other than like, okay, you can be yourself.

1001
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go be me over here. We don't have

1002
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: to be together. But abuse wants to say I know

1003
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: that if she knew this stuff or that if I

1004
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: told her this, that she would leave. And because she's

1005
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: not equal to me, because I have the right to

1006
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 1: exploit her, because I have the right to withhold information

1007
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 1: from her that automatically puts him in his own mind

1008
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: and in our case, above us. Right, So they hold

1009
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: this power because we don't have all the information. So

1010
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: I think when you think about that, think about the motivation.

1011
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: Think about now, an abuser when they learn these this language.

1012
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: Let's say there's an abuser listening today, they're going to

1013
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: use this. They weaponize everything. If they go to therapy,

1014
00:57:58,080 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: they're going to weaponize it. If they go to pornography,

1015
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: a action recovery, If they go to sex addiction recovery,

1016
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: they're going to weaponize it. So what they would say

1017
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: to you is, well, I also didn't feel safe. I

1018
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 1: was also defending myself against your verbal attacks. They're going

1019
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: to use everything they can, it doesn't matter what it is,

1020
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: to weaponize it against a victim. And so um, that's

1021
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: why I never recommend couple of therapy. I never recommend

1022
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, like reading some kind of therapy book with

1023
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: your abuse or other other things like that, because anything

1024
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: that even a lot of spiritual abuse, a lot of

1025
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: spiritual stuff, scripture, you know, depending on um, where where

1026
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 1: you get your help from, depending on what you're looking for,

1027
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: they're going to weaponize that. And you can tell that

1028
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: they're weaponizing it by how you feel. Yeah, And if

1029
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: they're not weaponizing it, if they're legit like using it

1030
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: the way it should be used, you're not going to

1031
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: feel bad. You're going to be like, oh, things are

1032
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: getting a little better, right. So UM, I just want

1033
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: victims to not don't just listen to these words, because

1034
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: your abuser could hear this podcast and be like I

1035
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: my motivation was love, my motivation was safety, and they're

1036
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:15,479
Speaker 1: just lying their actual motivation it was exploitation. And thank

1037
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on getting real with us,

1038
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: share and all this. I mean, this is very helpful

1039
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: for both of us, both sides. And where can our

1040
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,439
Speaker 1: listeners hear your podcast? And UM get on? Where where

1041
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: can I also like to get on placed on me everything? Well,

1042
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: first of all, I apologize for talking so much. UM,

1043
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 1: I would love to hear your stories. So if you

1044
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: would like to come on my podcast, I would love

1045
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: to have you so after we can maybe talk about that. UM.

1046
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: My podcast is Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We share stories from victims. UM.

1047
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: It is an amazing place where women are believed and

1048
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: people listen and it's UM it's an awesome podcast, So

1049
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: you can I think I already said this, but you

1050
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: can find it on Apple podcast or your podcasting apps.

1051
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: Our website is b t R dot org. At bt R,

1052
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: we have multiple groups a day in every single time zone.

1053
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: We have trauma informed and abuse UM specialists who help

1054
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: women process this stuff. We're the only organization that I

1055
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: know of that includes infidelity and porn use and and

1056
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: sexual acting out outside of a woman's sexual boundaries as

1057
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,479
Speaker 1: an abuse issue. I think it is an abuse issue

1058
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 1: because of all the things that go along with it. UM,

1059
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: and so women are really safe at BTR too feel

1060
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,439
Speaker 1: all the feelings they need to feel in order to heal,

1061
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: and we um we see women healing all the time,

1062
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: even though it takes time. So again, that's b t

1063
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: R dot org. You can also find us on Instagram

1064
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: at Betrayal Trauma Recovery or on TikTok um. My colleague

1065
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: Diana runs our TikTok and it's really fun. They're really fun.

1066
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: It's it's miserable, but she's really good at it. Um.

1067
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: She runs our TikTok and that's a beautier dot org

1068
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 1: as well. Awesome, Well, thank you so much. I appreciate

1069
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: it more than you know. Thank you. Okay, all right,

1070
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: by great, thank you. I actually love UM. I forgot

1071
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: that I follow padreal Trauma I do, and I love

1072
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: I love the girl that they have on there, like

1073
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 1: she's she's amazing. Um. They talked about like narcissum, gas lighting. UM,

1074
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 1: he like abusive to the mom, but she's still a

1075
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: really good dad. And I'm just going to call that one.

1076
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: It's false. He can't be a good dad and be

1077
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: abusive to the children's mother. It's just not possible. Like

1078
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: she throws me, I'm going to get some comments from men. Yeah,

1079
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: she throws. She's she's really good. I mean she says

1080
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: a lot of like I just I like love. Following

1081
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: I was like, wait a minute, I know that name

1082
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: um because that wasn't that must she must be like

1083
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 1: the head of it. I'm not sure, but yeah she's um.

1084
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 1: Recently I was talking to an abuse victim. Yeah she's great.

1085
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: So if you guys fell betrayal, trauma recovery, hopefully this

1086
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: is helpful to y'all. And again this is just um. Yeah,

1087
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: I'm I'm, I'm, I'm spent fair Okay, I love you,

1088
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: b