1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Truth plus media wait, smomp, because they ain't over who. 2 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: My mother and father always told me, if you're gonna 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 2: do something given percent or not, don't do. 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 3: It at all. So that's what you bring to the 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 3: court every night night. 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: In the nine out, I put on my hard hat 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: and get out there and start digging the trenches. 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 4: Stop but could The timeout was called both puffs going 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 4: at each other, Michael Short and I shaving, McDaniel having words. 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 4: Double technicals were called, I'm McDaniel and. 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 3: Short and this team is for real. 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: If we if anybody took him for granted, you know, 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: certainly we realized that, you know, they are team to 14 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: deal with. 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 3: You stay using people thinking pause, the bulls out of 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 3: the world champion. 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: We just laid on and just let them do whatever 18 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 2: they want to have. 19 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 3: Hey, this is a game. This is a man's game. Anthony, 20 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 3: seven seconds, take off thought. 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 4: The next seven took turn round of the stories guysusters. 22 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: The US nineteen ninety two and the New York Knicks. 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: We going toe to toe with the bulls in the playoffs. 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: They were talking smack, falling hard and truly believing that 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: they could knock off Michael Jordan. These Knicks were one 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: of the toughest teams of all time. They had a 27 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: superstar and Patrick Ewing, and a supporting cast featuring Xavier McDaniel, 28 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason, and Mark Jackson. With pat Riley 29 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: at the helm. These Knicks won fifty one games and 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: defeated the bad Boy Pistons in the first round before 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: falling to the Bulls in a tough fought seven game series. 32 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: This has Forgotten Seasons a show that rediscovers and relives 33 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: moments in NBA history. I'm Dylan Dreyfus, the creator of 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: Forgotten Seasons, and on today's episode, we're going to be 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: talking to the X Man, Xavier McDaniel, an All star, 36 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: a consistent twenty point scorer in one of the grittiest 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: players of the nineties. We're going back to nineteen ninety 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: two to relive this next season. The X Man, our guest, 39 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: was traded from Phoenix to New York right before the 40 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: start of this year, and he played a huge role. 41 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: We discussed Patrick Ewing's leadership, playing under the legendary pat Riley, 42 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: extremely physical playoff series against the Pistons and the Bulls, 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: and a lot more. This is Forgotten seasons and the 44 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: story of the nineteen ninety two Nicks begins. 45 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 3: Now. 46 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: All right, welcome everybody. Welcome Xavier McDaniel, x man, thank 47 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: you for coming on. How you doing today. 48 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. 49 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: So for those of you that don't know, we got 50 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: Xavier McDaniel. He was the fourth overall pick former which 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: tass State Shocker All Star. Really just one of the 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: toughest guys in NBA history. His coach pat Riley called 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: him a maniac in all the best ways. Today we're 54 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about the ninety one ninety two Knicks, 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: a team that won fifty one games. They were the 56 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: only team in Jordan's three first three pete to push 57 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: the Bulls to seven games. So, just to start out, 58 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: x Man, I'm just curious you get traded from the 59 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: Suns to the Knicks before this season. Talk to me 60 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: a little bit just about what the vibe was like 61 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: in New York City in the early nineties. I'm here now, 62 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: and I'm just curious what it was like for you, 63 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, popping into New York City back then. Just 64 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: speak a little bit about what that was like. 65 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: Yes, I got traded, I was traveling all day to 66 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: Fienns from Seattle and got into the office and caught 67 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: fit Sivens. We just traded your ass. I looked at 68 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: it and say, for real, I said where? He said 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: to New York. 70 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 3: I was like cool. 71 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: He said, you're not upset? I said, no, I should 72 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: have been there last year. I mean, I love Tom Trammers. 73 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: A great guy. We used to hang out, We should 74 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: do things together. 75 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 2: But the match with what they were doing in the 76 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: way I played just did not match match up. So 77 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 2: when I got traded, I was kind of happy because 78 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: now I knew I was going. 79 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 3: With Patrick, who was a fierce competitor. 80 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: Opley was a fierst competitor, and then myself is a 81 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: fierst competitor, and so I got there and I just 82 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: I just enjoyed myself, had a great time for that 83 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: one year. 84 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: I wish it would have lasted longer. 85 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: But it is a shame what happened with the contract, 86 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: and we'll get that get into that later. But what 87 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: I want to start out with is just sort of 88 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: the roster breakdown. So outside of yourself, I was who 89 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: got the man Patrick ewing Man in the post your guy? 90 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: We got Mark Jackson, Jerald Wilkins, Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason. 91 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: Where I want to start actually is with the coach 92 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: pat Riley, the legend himself. This was his first year 93 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: in New York. He won four championships in LA with 94 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: the Lakers. I've heard you speak about, you know, how 95 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: much pat Riley demanded out of his players sometimes before 96 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: games and shoot around. Uh he'd have you play like 97 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: a whole other game before the game. 98 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: Uh. 99 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: I speak a little bit just about you know, uh, 100 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: what playing under Pat was like and how he sort 101 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: of brought you know the best and demanded the most 102 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: out of out of his team. 103 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 3: Well, I think we're playing San Antonio. 104 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: I had a horrible game, and we're at the game, 105 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: Sean Elliott was blowing by me like. 106 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: And quick saying something. 107 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: And uh, we just got into it and and and 108 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: I just last out at that and say, fuck man, 109 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: I just played two fucking games. I just I just 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: right for fucking three hours and then had to turn 111 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: around five hours to play a game and. 112 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 3: We got in a real big, heated match. 113 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: I'm fucking practicing two and three hours on the shoot around, 114 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: and you expect for me to come out and play 115 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: a game and be efficient. 116 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 3: I felt like that was unfair. 117 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: Because the whole team didn't play well that day and 118 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: we got the shit beat out of us. I don't 119 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: regret it. Pat Roley, great guy. Call him right now 120 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: and he'll call me within a couple of hours. I 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: have no ill of them, but no one. I just 122 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: wish that they would have kept us together at least 123 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: at least two to three years. 124 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: I heard you talk a little bit about how you 125 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: know the man Patrick Ewing, how you would take him, 126 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: you'd go to war with him over any other big 127 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: history doesn't matter if it's a Keeam shack David Robinson. 128 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: Everyone knows that Patrick Ewing was a great player, right, 129 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: that's no secret. But I think to the extent in 130 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: that he was on that ste level as every other big, 131 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: every other great big on that time. Can you talk 132 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: a little bit about just you know what it was 133 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: like playing with Patrick and now he sort of led 134 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: that team that year. 135 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: Well, he's an ultimate warrior. 136 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: When you're talking about a warrior, the guy's a warrior 137 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: and he's always been from the first time I seen them. 138 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: Player of Medicine, Square Guard. I mean this guy, man, 139 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I love it. 140 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: I mean, this guy appracticed for three hours and never 141 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: say a word and be sitting over there with ice 142 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: and get up there and perform. And I went to him, 143 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: I said, man, coach kill him. This man, you gotta talk. 144 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: And he looked at this man, I just do what 145 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: the coach say. So, I mean he's a warrior man. 146 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: And a lot. 147 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: Of people may look at a king Elijah on and 148 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: holler about all that footwork, but let's go back to 149 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, eighty four, eighty five. There was no 150 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: comparison how batter Patrick Ewan was than Elijah One. Not 151 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: to take nothing away from the dream because he's a 152 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: hell of a player too, But it's just my preference. 153 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: You know, you talked to Kenni Smith. He may take 154 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: of Tima Odge want I'm going in the wall with Patrick. 155 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: Patrick is a he'd been a great player, and especially 156 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: in his prime he was very tough and. 157 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 3: I would go to wall with him inn at day. Yeah. 158 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: No, that was great backgrounding to Patrick and all that. 159 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: I want to try and focus back on the season 160 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: itself and try and right go back the first ten 161 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: games or so. You guys are struggling. If you recall 162 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: the narrative and the storyline around you guys. Everyone knew 163 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: you were a great defensive team, right you Patrick oak Mason, 164 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: that was no secret. But where you guys struggled sometimes 165 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: was shooting the ball right and that was sort of 166 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: the challenge, especially in the first few games of the season. 167 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: What do you remember just from that shaky start and 168 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: how did you guys stay level and stay focused and 169 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: maybe who is that guy in the locker room that 170 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: sort of got him We're together, rallied around him and said, 171 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, just focus on what we got to do. 172 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: Shots are going to go in. What do you remember 173 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: from that beginning stretch of the season. 174 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, we kind of struggled early in the year and 175 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: trying to find our identity and everybody trying to find 176 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: their roles. Also, me and Patrick had issues on the block. 177 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 3: If I'm on the block. 178 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: He would come in and it was just kind of 179 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: all like, we're all just trying to figure it out. 180 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: I think Mark Jackson was a probably that glue to 181 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: the team. Patrick was demand, but I think Mark Jackson was. 182 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: Really the leader of that group. Uh in two season 183 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 3: and it just took us. 184 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 2: A while to find our group when you take they 185 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 2: already had. They just added me, and then they added 186 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: Mace first year, Stocks was in his second year, I 187 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 2: think Greg Anthony first year. Everybody turned to find their 188 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: roles and find their identity on the team, and sometimes that. 189 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: Take a while. But once we got it, it was there. 190 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 2: Defensively, mm hmm. We knew we were tough because you know, 191 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: Patrick plays d O play D. 192 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: I played D. Mark Jackson plays D. Jural played D. 193 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: We The defense was there. 194 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: It was just trying to get the offense to click 195 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 2: click click, I mean click click with the with the defense, 196 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 2: and it just took a while. 197 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: Try to think about sort of that time, the early 198 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: nineties the other players in the league. You was one 199 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: of sort of the premiere uh small forward defenders. It 200 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: was an interesting time because obviously in the eighties you 201 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: had a great, great, great foundation of small forwards, right 202 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: Larry Bird, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, and then transitioning into 203 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: the nineties you sort of have a new generation Hippin' 204 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: mull in. Some of the other guys for you on defense, 205 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: who were the guys, uh, you know, whether it's a 206 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: star player or somebody that you thought was a little 207 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: bit underrated. Who are the guys that you enjoyed going 208 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: up against the most on the defensive end. 209 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: You just name a whole bunch of my love the 210 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 2: guard Me and Alex are We're not from the same neighborhood, 211 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: but we're like not far. He lives in Carolina, South Carolina, 212 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 2: maybe three miles from me, and so I love playing 213 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 2: against Alex And I'm gonna go back to the eighties. 214 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: I know you want the nineties, but I love competing 215 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: against all those guys. But in the nineties, Pippen was 216 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 2: tough because he came in the late eighties Larry Johnson, 217 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: who was I would say a combo with me inside outside. 218 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: You know, we don't have a lot of great handle, 219 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: but more of a post up small forward. I playing 220 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: against him was tough because it was also so daggon strong. 221 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 2: You know, when you're finding guys that are just as 222 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: strong as you. I think when I came in, I 223 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: was probably as strong as most of the small forwards 224 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: in the league. But as the nineties started coming around, 225 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: these guys. 226 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 3: Had some some some some. 227 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: Strength and uh, but Larry Johnson was definitely one of 228 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 2: the toughest guys I played against. I still don't want 229 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: to take Dominique Walkers out because I seen him at 230 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: the All Star Game and he told me saying, you 231 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: ain't give me no credit, But you know I used to. 232 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 3: Bust your ass too, and I'm not gonna lie. He 233 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: used to tear me off. 234 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: A tough guy, and going into the from the eighties 235 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 2: and into the ninety Dominique was still tough man. 236 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 3: He I mean, I mean, this guy. 237 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: Justice awkward moves and his ability to hit the floor 238 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: and bounce back up so quick was also tough. You know, 239 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 2: even guarding like Sean camp what's tough because even though 240 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 2: it wasn't a small forward, you know, George Carr would 241 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 2: always play those Dago crazy lineups and now you're looking 242 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: to see who to match up, and I would always 243 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: match up with Sean and stuff. So you got the 244 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 2: Ken Norman's kin Norman to play with the Clippers. 245 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 3: That was tough. 246 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: That's a that's a forgotten name. 247 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a lot of guys man. That small forward 248 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: was the ideal spot outside the Sinner going. 249 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 3: In the eighties and nineties. 250 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: And that leads me to the next question. Going back 251 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: towards to the end of the season, you guys have 252 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: a five game lead over Boston with eight eight games 253 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: left to go. And back then there were only two divisions, 254 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: so the two division leaders got the top two spots. 255 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: So Chicago's in one and then you and Boss are 256 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: in the other. Uh, and you guys sort of collapsed 257 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: there at the end of the season. Right, if it 258 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: holds position, you wouldn't have to see Chicago till the 259 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: conference finals. But the way that it goes, you end 260 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: up actually losing that lead and then Boston comes back. 261 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: What do you remember just about that sort of end 262 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: of season stretch where you guys do sort of fall 263 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: fall apart and that lead diminishes. Does that impact you 264 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: guys at all going into the playoffs mentally? 265 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it impacted us because we just lost the division. 266 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: Now we are taking. 267 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: The fourth spot instead of the maybe the second or 268 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: third spot because Boston. 269 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 3: Got the number three. 270 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: Spot overall number two seed, but the number three because 271 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: bust Boston was two. It was it was two, Boston. 272 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: Cleveland was three. 273 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 3: You guys were four, Okay, then that's what it was. 274 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: But I know we took four and we and so 275 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: now yeah, that that that that changes dramatics a whole 276 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 2: lot because you know you want to meet Chicago in 277 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: the Eastern Conference Finals. But you know, like I said, 278 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: we had a thirteen game lead up until I think 279 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: either rep before the All Star Game or right after 280 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: the All Star Game. So you got what March and 281 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: just April we had a thirteen game lead. Boston goes 282 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: out West and win something like twenty. 283 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: Out of twenty one games. 284 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: They got on a hot street and when we lost 285 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 2: that division, that really said everybody in a tailswhere because 286 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: now we know we got to play against the Bulls. 287 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: My thing is, don't matter when you're playing, you know 288 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: you got to still play them. 289 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: If you recall at the end of the season, you 290 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: guys played Detroit and got it was an ugly game. 291 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: You guys scored sixty two points, and that was one 292 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: of the last games of the regular season. And then 293 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: maybe a week later you see that you're playing them. 294 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: So you talked a little bit about sort of the 295 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: collapse and how they impacted you. What I want to 296 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: talk about now is just the concerct of Detroit, specifically 297 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: Isaiah Thomas. I think obviously one of the best point 298 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: guards ever and from my perspective, when I think of 299 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: the other great guards, right, you have Magic known for 300 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: his passing, maybe Steph Curry. Now with his shooting. Isaiah 301 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: everyone knows that he was one of the best, but 302 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: he doesn't have that glaring skill that distinguishes him from 303 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: the outside perspective, but from somebody who competed against him. 304 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: What was that one or two things about Isaiah that 305 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: that elevated him and made him one of the best Ever's. 306 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: Just play his play. 307 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: If he played in this era and the way there's 308 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 2: this guard small ball orient do you know Isaiah Thomas 309 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 2: Drimer like one of the Harlem Gold Trottles. He has 310 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: one of the best handles that you're ever gonna see 311 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: in this era. In time, he might have averaged thirty 312 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: thirty five points a game easily because he may be 313 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: if you want to talk about before your time, I 314 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 2: still consider one of the best players in NBA history. 315 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: But he would be tending this league up right now 316 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: if he played in this era. It's a small ball era, 317 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: and the way they let him play and the way 318 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: they handle I mean, think about it. James Harden comes 319 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: down between the leg twenty lake hind the back tween 320 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: leg twenty lake twenty legs and just do a bunch 321 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: of stuff and then just drives on you. Isaiah would 322 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: he didn't even have to dribble that many times because 323 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: he was so good. 324 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 3: With the ball. 325 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 2: He would dominate this league. A lot of guys probably will. 326 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: But you know the thing is, errors are so different, 327 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: and I hate comparing them, and I hate saying who's 328 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: the goat and who's not. I hate that because how 329 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: do you determine who's the best player in the era. 330 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: Some people say Bill Russell, and I seen the tape 331 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 2: on him. I seen this guy jump from the damn 332 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: free throw line. I'm like, oh, and it was over 333 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 2: someone on a layup. 334 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: Russo and you jumping from the free throw line. You 335 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 3: see him jumps sobi guy. 336 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: And there's a lot of great players, And the game 337 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: has evolved and it's continued to evolve because you know, 338 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: the sixties were a certain way, the seventies were a 339 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: certain way, the eighties were a certain way, the nineties 340 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 2: were a certain way, and now to the president is 341 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 2: a certain way. The game is gonna always change, and 342 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 2: so it's for me it's hard to determine who the best. 343 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: But Isaiah Thomas has no doubt about one hundred years 344 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: from now will be one of the best players they 345 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 2: ever play in the game. A lot of people don't 346 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: like him because of the bad boys situation, you know, 347 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 2: they say he wasn't dirty, but you go back and 348 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: look at a lot of things. 349 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: Bill did a lot of things. 350 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: Dennis Rutman did a lot of things Isaiah did and 351 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: to a point, Joe Dubars He's done some dirty things too. 352 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: They all, Spider, They've all been some dirty things. 353 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 3: And so. 354 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: When we had to play myself, Oakley was like, one 355 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 2: thing we will not do is we will not be 356 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: bullied by the bully. Were gonna bully their asses and 357 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: we're gonna talk shit to him all fucking games, you know, 358 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: And if you go back and you watch any of 359 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: those games, you will see the whole game. They always 360 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: try to get in your head with the hard hits, 361 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 2: So why not hit the ass is. 362 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 3: Hard and openly set the tone. 363 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 2: He clubbed his shit out of Dennis Robmin and that 364 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 2: kind of set the tone. 365 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: Speaking there are different times speaking of Robin. He averaged 366 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: just over ten rebounds a game this series. In the 367 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: regular season, believe or not, he was averaging eighteen and 368 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: a half rebounds a game, so you're pretty much cutting 369 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: his rebounds down in half. And that was your best 370 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: rank to the team probably maybe other than defense rebounding. 371 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: What was the key to keeping Robin off the boards? 372 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 2: Keeping a body on it, keeping a body on it. 373 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 2: And we started off with me on Lambard, hopefully on 374 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: Rodman and Patrick on Orlando Orlando Real Ridge and so, 375 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: and then we would just switch it up. They didn't 376 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: know how to to players, but if I was them, 377 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 2: I would have win that Patrick every time in Orlando 378 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: Woods Iso tell him you gotta finish strong. 379 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 3: But they were more guard orient back then. 380 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 2: With Isaiah du Balls as the box scores of that team, 381 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 2: and so we just wanted to keep a big body 382 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 2: on again. And then there were times where I would 383 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 2: be guarding robbing because. 384 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 3: They'll come in with Sally Uh. They were come in with. 385 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: Orlando or Uh and and robbing at the three, and 386 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: my job was don't worry about the rebound face Garden, 387 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: put my forearm onder his chin, and if I had 388 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 2: to ride him under the basket, ride him out under 389 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 2: the basket. And so it got very frustrated for him. 390 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 2: And then the fishers wasn't giving him those fake ass 391 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: calls where he going up for a rebud and flopped 392 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: and ship where they were called offensive file. They wasn't 393 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 2: giving him that in the playoffs, and so. 394 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 3: Basically we just we just kicked the ass. To be honest, 395 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 3: they were we and when we was. 396 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 2: Telling them, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, 397 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 2: crying to the fishers, the fishers. If you're gonn watch 398 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: it and you see the fishers laugh because we shut 399 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: the fuck up. Man sitting there crying to the fisher 400 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: getting your ass kicked, that's what's happening. 401 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 3: Kick my ass. 402 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: So I will be saying things like that, openy, We'll 403 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 2: be saying stuff like that. And basically they crying to 404 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: the officials, you know. So we just wanted to be 405 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: very physical with there. 406 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: And you did that, and then I think that probably 407 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: sets you up well. Right, So if you can bully 408 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: the bully with the bad boys, then you're going to 409 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: the bulls. And you said I saw in the newspaper 410 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: they asked you after the Detroit series once you guys 411 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: win in five, you said that you wanted it to 412 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: be like for the Bulls, that that you wanted it 413 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: to be like working a ninety five job in the 414 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: steel mills of Pittsburgh for them. So what does that 415 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: mean to you. 416 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 3: Well, that means bring your lunch pail. 417 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: You're gonna be working on some steel and it's going 418 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: to be hot, it's going to be hectic, and it's 419 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 2: going to be it's going to be tough. 420 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 3: We wanted to bring blood. 421 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 2: We wanted to be physical, not to hurt nobody, but 422 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: to be physical. 423 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 3: All our fouls are hard fouls. You know, hey, I 424 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 3: played in that game with a concussion. Game five? Who 425 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 3: you played with concussion? 426 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: Is that why you were down on the ground? 427 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: Bill Im here? 428 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 2: He hit me with a shot. It wasn't I don't 429 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 2: think he meant to do it, but he caught me 430 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: with a shot. And the fisher was right there. And 431 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: that's what I was telling them, y'all seen that ship. 432 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: Didn't call it. So when I hit the motherfucker, I 433 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 2: don't say shit. That's what they're talking about. Well, y'all 434 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 2: better calming down. 435 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 3: We're gonna kick. 436 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 2: It, fucking kick me out the game because you've seen it. 437 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 2: So I'm I'm pissed off. I'm furious, and so bulls 438 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: try to make like things didn't happen in them that things. 439 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 2: They had tissue up their nose like they're getting hit. 440 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 2: But I got hit several times in that game where 441 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 2: I caught some real serious shots from them. So it 442 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 2: was a physical game because you know, people don't realize 443 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: people love Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan does no wrong, and 444 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: Michael Jordan will follow you. Not a dirty play, but 445 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 2: he will follow you and say what I want to do. 446 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: You know, you just hit my hand and it's doing 447 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: right and the Fishers does not call that. So I 448 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: ripped him and when they throw it, my thing was 449 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: to wind up with just donks as hard as I 450 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: could from where I should have probably statue of liberty 451 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 2: and then maybe got a file, but I didn't do that. 452 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 2: But files are not going to be called in a 453 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 2: game seven and we know that. And just to pick 454 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: that that whole series, that was a tough series. 455 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: Man. 456 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: I don't think I ever played in a decisive game 457 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 2: like I did in the game seven. I was after 458 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 2: those seven games, I was, I was draining. 459 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 3: I was just drained. 460 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I was, I mean, it was, 461 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 2: it was, it was. 462 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 3: I was draining. After that series. Well, I want to. 463 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: Go sort of just quickly game by game, because you 464 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: guys win game one, and that's sort of the big 465 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: wake up call, right, everyone everyone expecting, right, they don't 466 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: have a shot. I saw even Walt Frazier so that 467 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: it would be for one of best, right, so that 468 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: that that game happens. Game one, you guys win, and 469 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: Jordan then says, you know, no, this is real, like 470 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: this is going to be a good series. So he's 471 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: even you guys send the message to him and he's like, okay, no, 472 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: this is going to be real. Then game two comes out, 473 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: they win. Bj Armstrong if you remember, hits a few 474 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: clutch shots. 475 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 3: Uh. 476 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: They really take away Patrick who went off in game one, 477 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: but now game two he's struggling. And then game three 478 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: the Bulls win again. Jordan scores thirty. Uh, there's that 479 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: iconic play where Michael goes up for the dunk, you 480 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: push him and then he's pointing at you and he 481 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: said after the game. So they're reporters, you don't want 482 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: to know what I said. I just needed to hype 483 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: myself up. Do you remember what he said to you? 484 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: And I believe it was Patrick was also on the ground. 485 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: I'd never even seen the play. After he did it 486 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: because we were on the floor tangle up. They showed 487 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 2: it to us doing doing the next day. You know 488 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 2: when you go over the tape and stuff, and I'm 489 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: sitting there like I should have put his ass on 490 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,479 Speaker 2: the floor for real. But I tried to hit him 491 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: enough just to knock him off balance, not hurting. But 492 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: after seeing that first thing, saying to me, he may 493 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: not bring his ass to the whole the game, because 494 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 2: the next time I was floor's ass. And so I remember. 495 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 2: I don't know what game it was, but I knew 496 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: it was in Madison Square Guard. I'll get a breakaway 497 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 2: as me and him, and he fuckings leveled me and 498 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 2: knocks my head. They don't call shit, know if you 499 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: remember that? 500 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 3: No, I'm not sure it's the same game. I can't 501 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 3: even remember which. 502 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: I thought is that when you threw you like you 503 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: smacked the basket, they call it time out. You were 504 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: on the ground. 505 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 3: That's the one in Chicago. The elbow and I had concussion, 506 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 3: mm hmm. 507 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: And this was in This was in This was either 508 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: game four game six, because we wanted I can't remember. 509 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 3: And I got the layup and I. 510 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 2: Chield him and he hits me and my head goes 511 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: back and I'm down. They don't even call nothing, and 512 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there like it's no way y'all call us 513 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: other stuff and I call us, and you know, and 514 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: that's why I said. When we were replaying Mic now, 515 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: I was telling you, shut the fuck up, you get 516 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: all the calls. 517 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 3: Motherfucker just followed me, and you don't call ship. 518 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 2: So I remember in game seven, Stocks kind of touching 519 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 2: them in the stomach and they called a three point play. 520 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 3: But I got hit. 521 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: My head got snapped back, and I was a little 522 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: dazed and stuff. 523 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 3: But it's the playoffs. 524 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: They're gonna call something, they're gonna miss some, so you 525 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 2: just gotta keep playing. But you know, you try to 526 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: get in the official's head by when the players are talking, 527 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: you know, Mike talking about this. 528 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 3: Shut the fuck up. You just you get all the calls. 529 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 3: If you're that good, they don't need your help. Tell them, 530 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 3: my fucker, you don't need their help. That's what I 531 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 3: used to do. Fuck you X. It was like f 532 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 3: you X. F you X. 533 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 2: I was like, listen to what I just said, and 534 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: it was Hugh Hollins. I think maybe Hugh Evans. 535 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: I said, Hugh, he don't need your help, tell who 536 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: you don't need his help. 537 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 2: And I guarantee you if he don't call the certain 538 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 2: things for you, tell the night, he would never say it. 539 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: He would never say it. And so I was trying 540 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 2: to get an officials head, get into their head a 541 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: little bit. But it was a great serious Like I said, 542 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: I played in some game five and some some series 543 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: against the Lakers. I've never felt a where I felt 544 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 2: after the after the playing the Bulls. 545 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 3: It was. 546 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: It was not just physically but a mental It was 547 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 2: a mental challenge after at the end, well. 548 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: I was gonna say mentally, I mean in all the 549 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: best ways. Like I said, you were just a complete 550 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: maniac that series, right, Like I mean, you just came 551 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: out there every talking shit, falling hard. But you were 552 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: also balling games five to seven or games four to six, 553 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: you go twenty four to twenty six, twenty four, so 554 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: you're balling, You're playing a lot. But then eventually, right 555 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: I mean game seven in their house, they sort of 556 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: just you know, maybe you guys just didn't have didn't 557 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: have anything left. 558 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 3: I don't know what I shot. 559 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: That wasn't bad when I was shooting, but as a team, 560 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 2: we didn't shoot the ball very. 561 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: Well Game seven or the whole series. 562 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: The game seven, yeah uh, and they were ready to 563 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 3: pull away from us. 564 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: Patrick's also injured. He he sprained his ankle game six. 565 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, everybody's hurt. Man. 566 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: I played, like I tell people, I played fucking with 567 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: a with a Tory Manisca the touring cottage under my 568 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: kneecap for four and a half months in seatut of 569 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 2: in eighty eighty eight. And when you get to the playoffs, 570 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: there's no healthy people. Everybody is hurt. I haven't met 571 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: a player yet that didn't have some type of injury, 572 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: and so you're gonna when you go into the playoffs. Man, 573 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: you try to be as healthy as your kids. It's 574 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 2: not like first their cat with nobody got injured. I mean, 575 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: you play eighty two games and then you go into 576 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: the playoffs. Depends on how many games you play in 577 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: round one. Back then it was five game series. If 578 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: you swept them in three or you went to four, 579 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,719 Speaker 2: went to five, you had some type of element that 580 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 2: was going on with your body. So you know, I 581 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: don't never use excuses. You know, I know a lot 582 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 2: of people. Oh, Michael and Scotti, you can tell they 583 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: hurt it. You know when you go back and listen 584 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: to back in the day when we would listen to it, 585 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 2: and I'm sitting there, like for the last three and 586 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 2: a half years, I played with a bum knee, I 587 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: played with with with pull hamstrings. I don't make fucking excuses. 588 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: You kick my ass, you kick my ass, I'm hurt, 589 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: I'm hurt, and then don't play. You know, there's a 590 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: difference between the engine and hurt. So, uh, everybody's kind 591 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: of banged up and dinged up in the playoffs and 592 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: that's where that's where the mental part of the game 593 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: come in. 594 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, it's unfortunate that the group 595 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: wasn't able to stick together, but I think that's part 596 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: of the reason that that made it special and that 597 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: makes a little bit forgotten because it was sort of 598 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: a one year ride and you got so close to 599 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: defeating probably the greatest team of all time. So, you know, 600 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: in another universe, you guys do resign, they bring back 601 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: you Gerald Mark, you think that you guys are beating 602 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: the bulls. 603 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 2: I guess it was beating the bulls because now you're 604 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: playing together, you be playing together more. 605 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 3: You you you gotta understanding, uh. 606 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 2: Tough basketball, not just physically but mentally how to stay 607 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 2: in there. And I just think that I think that 608 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: we could have went to the next level. I watched 609 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: that game against the Balls, and I'm saying, dunk the ball, Charles. 610 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 3: I'm looking all, you got to get that ball. 611 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: And when you're in that middle and you got to 612 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: rock you once and I get it twice, I'm going 613 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: up and trying to dunk it the second time. So 614 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: I feel I felt bad for Charles, but it's what 615 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 2: it is and nothing you can do. 616 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 3: But I just wish we had one two years left. 617 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 2: I felt like we had a great opportunity to do 618 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: something special in New York. I just felt like and 619 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 2: they stayed with that pretty much that team besides me 620 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: Mark and I mean, the core was was old, Patrick 621 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: May starts at Greg Anthony. I think if you stay 622 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: with it, and and that's what was so more. I 623 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: think disappointed because pat Riley with the Lakers, he never 624 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: tore down he always added pieces to it. They tore 625 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: down the core and then added pieces that I didn't 626 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: think necessarily fit with them. Not to take nothing away 627 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: from Charles Milk, I think he's a great player, but 628 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: I felt like I felt that mode of how he 629 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,239 Speaker 2: wanted to play better than Charles Smith. Charles Smith was 630 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 2: more flashy. I was more like, Oh I'm and Patrick, 631 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: I'm a grinder too, And so I felt like if 632 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 2: we would have just left it along that same core 633 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 2: and add to it, like just like you add Greg 634 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 2: Anthony and through the draft, I felt like we could 635 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: have and they still competed for like the next few 636 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: years until Michael whatever you want to call it, you know, 637 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 2: his retirement baseball or whatever going. 638 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 3: You know, they went to it and stuff. 639 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,959 Speaker 2: And it was a bittersweet for me because I think 640 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: Patrick deserves a championship, but I also wanted to be 641 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: there with him, you know, So it was a bittersweet 642 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: for me to see him in that position because you know, 643 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 2: like I said, I was happy for him, but I 644 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 2: wanted to be there too, even though I was in 645 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 2: Boston and so didn't work out. Man, you know, you know, 646 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 2: life moves on life and life is a lot of ifs, 647 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 2: and so we. 648 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 3: Can always talk about what, you know, what what could 649 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 3: have been. 650 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 2: But I love playing with Patrick, playing with Oak and 651 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 2: Mark and Jeryel Starks and Mason Mason, great friends on 652 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: that team, and you know, unfortunate. 653 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 3: You know, we're old now, we're old men. 654 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 2: Mason is no longer here, and you know Oakley, you 655 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: know wherever he's at. I'm not sure it's New York, Cleveland. 656 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: Me and Patrick still talking. Hadn't talked to Mark Jackson 657 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 2: in years, and you know, some things going on with 658 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: Gerald trying to call Dominique Wanner but didn't get no 659 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 2: response back on Gerald. But and I hadn't talked to 660 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 2: Starks in years, neither, So it would have been great 661 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: to see what we could do on maybe a two 662 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: or three year run, but it didn't happen. 663 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: As man, I appreciate your time. This was this was 664 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: a lot of fun going back to nineteen ninety one. 665 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: Like I said, Special Squad, it was short lived for 666 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: you know, business reasons, we'll say. But how many teams 667 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: got Jordan of seven and you guys were one of them. 668 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: I can't wait to overlay this audio with some highlights 669 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: of you going crazy in that series because that'll be 670 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: a lot of fun to put together into watch and 671 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: appreciate your time. Thank you for coming on all right, 672 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: Thank you invite Forgotten Seasons with Xavier McDaniel in the 673 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two Next Man Some Wild Stories. I hope 674 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: you all enjoyed again. This is Dylan Dreyfus, the creator 675 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: of Forgotten Seasons. Thank you guys for listening and for 676 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 1: your continued support. You can find us searching Forgotten Seasons 677 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter, and visit truthplusmedia dot com for 678 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: more in depth looks at these amazing stories from MBA 679 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: history and stay tuned. You know there's more Forgotten Seasons 680 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: on the way.