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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Deblin and chalk reboarding and I'm far Dali and

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Speaker 1: we're continuing on here with our discussion of Gertrude Bell,

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Speaker 1: who is a British archaeologist, mountain climber, and desert explorer,

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Speaker 1: and as we'll see in this episode, also an intelligence

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Speaker 1: officer and a diplomat too. She's said to have been

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Speaker 1: one of the most powerful women in the British Empire

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Speaker 1: at one time, but today her name really isn't that

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Speaker 1: widely known, so we wanted to take a look at

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Speaker 1: her life and why she was called the uncrowned Queen

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Speaker 1: of a Rock. So let's recap us a little bit

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Speaker 1: before we get too far into this. In part one

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Speaker 1: of this podcast, we talked a bit about gertrude scholarly pursuits,

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Speaker 1: plus some of her daredevil adventures as a young woman

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Speaker 1: climbing the Alps. We followed her on some of her

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Speaker 1: early adventures through the Middle East, during times when she

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Speaker 1: explored areas that no woman, in many cases, nobody at all,

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Speaker 1: had ever explored before, places that were considered extremely dangerous

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Speaker 1: one of the most exciting of these adventures was when

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Speaker 1: she explored the territory of the secretive Drew Sect and

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Speaker 1: charmed the Drew's king. And in these cases, and I

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Speaker 1: mean especially with that example, it was her bravery and

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Speaker 1: her charm that really seemed to pay off, really seemed

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Speaker 1: to win over the locals, and in doing so, by

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Speaker 1: by becoming so friendly with the people she met, she

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Speaker 1: was really able to learn a lot about the area

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Speaker 1: and its history, things that really were not previously known

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Speaker 1: by foreigners. It also helped her with her various archaeological

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Speaker 1: pursuits though, too, which we outlined a bit in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, And we also discussed her first meeting with

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Speaker 1: Thomas Edward Lawrence better known as Lawrence of Arabia, and

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Speaker 1: we haven't seen the last of him. He's going to

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Speaker 1: pop up again in Gertrude Bell's story, so stay tuned

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Speaker 1: for that. But although she didn't necessarily think this, of

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Speaker 1: all women, girl True also obviously believed herself capable of

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Speaker 1: many things, but as we'll see in this episode, there

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Speaker 1: were some instances in which people were ready to challenge that.

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Speaker 1: Before that, though, we should really dwell on this idea

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Speaker 1: of Bell being capable of anything that I just mentioned

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Speaker 1: for just for a second, because it certainly seemed like

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Speaker 1: she was when it came to most pursuits. But we

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Speaker 1: do know that up to this point in our story,

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Speaker 1: she hasn't been able to sort things out in her

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Speaker 1: personal life really that well, especially in the marriage department,

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Speaker 1: even though it would have been expected of a woman

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Speaker 1: with her background to have worked that out early on.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about her first love a little bit

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Speaker 1: in that first episode. It was a young British diplomat

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Speaker 1: named HENRYK Duggan, whom Belle's father didn't approve of because

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Speaker 1: he just didn't have the financial exactly the financial means

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Speaker 1: to take care of her, and he actually passed away

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Speaker 1: soon after their courtship, closing that door for good for her.

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Speaker 1: But somehow, in the midst of all these adventures and

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Speaker 1: scholarly pursuits, Gertrude did managed to find love again. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she sounds kind of like she's our sitcom hero and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about right now, but she she did find

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Speaker 1: a second love. When she was in her forties. She'd

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Speaker 1: come across the British diplomat and army officer Richard Doughty

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Speaker 1: Wiley while traveling in Turkey, where he had been stationed,

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Speaker 1: and when the two of them were back in London

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Speaker 1: for a time in nineteen thirteen, they really clicked. Finally

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Speaker 1: they started up an affair, and according to Janet Wallack's

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Speaker 1: article in The Smithsonian, they apparently had a lot of

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Speaker 1: passion between them. At least early on, they had a

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Speaker 1: lot in common they were both adventurers. But their relationship

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Speaker 1: didn't last very long. It flamed out pretty quickly. For

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Speaker 1: one thing, doughtye Wiley was married, and he also got reassigned.

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Speaker 1: He was reassigned to the Balkans. And after that, Gertrude

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Speaker 1: just really threw herself into another great adventure, this time

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Speaker 1: going to the desert of northern Arabia, where no Westerner

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Speaker 1: had traveled in twenty years. So really looking for something

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Speaker 1: new to do after this this second flame, right, And

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Speaker 1: not only was this area not well traveled, I mean,

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Speaker 1: just to give an idea of how dangerous it really was,

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Speaker 1: there were two tribes in the area that were they

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Speaker 1: had a brutal war going on between them at the time,

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Speaker 1: so dangerous exactly, and the British, because of that, advised

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Speaker 1: her not to go, and she also didn't have permission

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Speaker 1: from the Turks to travel there, but she did it anyway.

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Speaker 1: She went ahead and set off on this journey and

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Speaker 1: she reached her goal of making it to Heel, which

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Speaker 1: is a walled city which was once a stop for

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Speaker 1: pilgrims on route to Mecca. But among other misadventures, she

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Speaker 1: ended up during this journey being held captive by a

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Speaker 1: powerful tribe there for nearly ten days. And you can

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Speaker 1: imagine during this time she really thought she wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to get away. The tribe apparently had quite the reputation

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Speaker 1: for for murder and mayhem, so she she just feared

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Speaker 1: for her life, really, But finally her anger just sort

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Speaker 1: of overcame her fear, I guess, and she demanded that

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Speaker 1: they set her free. And surprisingly they did not really

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Speaker 1: sure why they did that. Maybe they were just really

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Speaker 1: shocked and impressed she she spoke up for herself. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe of charm is sometimes effective, it seems true. Um.

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Speaker 1: By the summer of nineteen fourteen, she was back in

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Speaker 1: England and um, you might think she'd be relieved to

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Speaker 1: be home and be safe and be alive, but she

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Speaker 1: was feeling kind of down, feeling a let down that

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Speaker 1: you might feel after a particularly exhilarating trip, or in

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Speaker 1: her case, a life threatening trip. According to Walax article,

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Speaker 1: she wrote to Dotie Wiley at this time and said

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Speaker 1: the end of an adventure always leaves one with a

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Speaker 1: feeling of disillusion, just nothing, And she went on to

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Speaker 1: say dust and ashes in one's hand, dead bones that

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Speaker 1: look as if they would never rise and dance. So

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Speaker 1: she's feeling poetic, but also clearly sad about where she is.

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Speaker 1: She needs This is a woman who needs something to do,

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Speaker 1: so in nineteen fourteen she was kind of presented with

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Speaker 1: some new possibilities. In June of that year, Archduke Franz Ferdinand,

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Speaker 1: who was heir to the throne of Austria Hungary, was assassinated,

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Speaker 1: which helped set World War One into motion, and the

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Speaker 1: Turks entered into a secret treaty with the Germans and

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Speaker 1: they became allies. So suddenly Gertrude's singular knowledge of the

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Speaker 1: Arabian desert and its people became really invaluable to the

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Speaker 1: British because they wanted to keep their influence in the

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Speaker 1: Middle East. She'd explored, as we mentioned in Mapped Places

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Speaker 1: that most Westerners have never been, so what she knew

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Speaker 1: was then a hot commodity. It was, and according to

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Speaker 1: Carrie Ellis's History Today article, the British Director of military

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Speaker 1: operations in Cairo did ask Belle to get him a

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Speaker 1: report including basically everything that she had ever learned on

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Speaker 1: her travels in Theria and Mesopotamia and Arabia. And she had,

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Speaker 1: you know, she she hadn't just observed all this time,

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Speaker 1: she had formed some opinions of her own too, and

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Speaker 1: clearly with the world so in balance at this point

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Speaker 1: she was ready to speak her mind. Right. She believed

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Speaker 1: in a strategy of organizing the Arabs and a revolt

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Speaker 1: against the Ottoman Turks, because she knew that the Ottomans

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Speaker 1: were losing their influence with the Arabs, and so she

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Speaker 1: shared her knowledge of this, but she wanted to go

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Speaker 1: beyond that. She really thought that she could help with this,

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Speaker 1: with organizing this revolt, and so she asked for an

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Speaker 1: official post in the Middle East, but she was denied

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Speaker 1: that because it was thought to be too dangerous for

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Speaker 1: a woman. So she went off to France for a

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Speaker 1: while to volunteer with the Red Cross. Probably also pretty dangerous, right,

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Speaker 1: By November of nineteen fifteen, though, the military had had

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Speaker 1: a bit of a change of heart, and Gertrude was

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Speaker 1: called to the Arab Bureau and Cairo to work for

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Speaker 1: a small espionage team that they had there in the

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Speaker 1: Savoy Hotel. There were a couple of other archaeologists working

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Speaker 1: for this little intelligence outfit, to including Leonard Woolley who

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Speaker 1: we mentioned recently, I think in the Agatha Christie podcast,

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Speaker 1: and also Lawrence, and they were making maps and geological reports,

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Speaker 1: and Gertrude was drafted to catalog Arab tribes which she

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Speaker 1: had learned a lot about on her travels too, so

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Speaker 1: she catalog of these tribes in detail so that British

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Speaker 1: officials could reach out to their leaders and form alliances.

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Speaker 1: And just incidentally, you just mentioned Lawrence again. This is

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Speaker 1: where he and Gertrude Bell got to be really good friends,

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Speaker 1: really tight. They'd share meals together, they would talk all

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Speaker 1: the time. In her article while it even calls them

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Speaker 1: quote soulmate, so good buddies. But the work that Gertrude

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Speaker 1: was doing during this time, well clearly very valuable to

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Speaker 1: the British still wasn't really in an official capacity. It

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Speaker 1: was vital. It was increasingly influential, but it wasn't official.

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Speaker 1: Just some examples though the kind of stuff she was doing.

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Speaker 1: She was sent to India to convince the viceroy there

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Speaker 1: to put up men in cash and support of the

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Speaker 1: Arab revolt. In March of nineteen sixteen, she was sent

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Speaker 1: to Mesopotamia to use her relationships with various tribes there

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Speaker 1: to try to convince locals to cooperate with the British effort.

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Speaker 1: So she's really on the ground getting people involved, stiring

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Speaker 1: up British loyalty. Umm in her maps too, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's just a very practical side of things. Her maps

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Speaker 1: really helped the British Army reach Baghdad. So as a

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Speaker 1: result of all these contributions her work in Mesopotamia, under

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Speaker 1: the leadership of Chief Political Officer Percy Cox, Gertrude was

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Speaker 1: given the title of Liaison Officer Correspondent to Cairo, which

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Speaker 1: made her official and according to Ellis, made her the

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Speaker 1: sole female political officer in the British forces. And then

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventeen, after the British Army took Baghdad, she

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Speaker 1: was given the title of Oriental Secretary. By late nineteen eighteen,

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Speaker 1: things changed. Though the Allies had made peace with Germany

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Speaker 1: and the Ottoman Empire had collapsed, the Arab world was

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Speaker 1: pretty much in a total state of chaos as France

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Speaker 1: and England tried to figure out how they were going

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Speaker 1: to divvy up their sphere of influence in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: and there was also the question of how these areas

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Speaker 1: were going to be governed. For example, would the areas

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Speaker 1: under British influence, which at the time include Mesopotamia, would

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Speaker 1: these be under British rule or would they be allowed

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Speaker 1: to govern themselves? And of course, as you can imagine,

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Speaker 1: Bell had an opinion on this. In January of nineteen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: she was asked for a report that addressed this very question,

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Speaker 1: which was a task that she was understandably quite passionate about,

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Speaker 1: having known the people and and studied and worked with

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Speaker 1: them for so long, and according to Ellis's article, it

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Speaker 1: took her ten months to put something together, though she

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Speaker 1: was so thorough on it, and the idea that it

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Speaker 1: ultimately got across her report was her belief that the

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Speaker 1: Arabs should be able to govern themselves. She wrote, quote,

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Speaker 1: an Arab state in Mesopotamia within a short period of

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Speaker 1: years is a possibility, and the recognition or creation of

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Speaker 1: a logical scheme of government on those lines and supersession

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Speaker 1: of those on which we are now working on Mesopotamia

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Speaker 1: would be practical and popular. So very report kind of

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Speaker 1: language there, but clear what her what her view on

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Speaker 1: on the situation, And unfortunately, though her superior at the

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Speaker 1: time A. T. Wilson, because Cox had been called away

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Speaker 1: to another post, Wilson didn't agree with her at all

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Speaker 1: at this point. He sent her report over with a

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Speaker 1: cover letter that expressed how he felt her ideas were

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Speaker 1: quote erroneous. So Wilson basically believed that the British should

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Speaker 1: retain control there and he wasn't. Incidentally, the only British

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Speaker 1: officer in Baghdad that Bell didn't get along with. In general,

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Speaker 1: she was pretty much disliked by her peers in those

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Speaker 1: postwar years. According to Wallax article, colleagues expressed this in

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Speaker 1: a number of different ways. For example, they would keep

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Speaker 1: her out of the loop on cables and secret documents,

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Speaker 1: maybe on a lighter note, maybe not as serious. They

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Speaker 1: would shun her in the dining hall. They would make

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Speaker 1: jokes about her and laugh behind her back. So just

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Speaker 1: an example, here, she used to throw these teas for

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Speaker 1: British and Arab dignitaries to get together and sort of

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Speaker 1: other officers referred to them mockingly as p s a S,

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Speaker 1: which stood for Pleasant Sunday Afternoons. They also referred to

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Speaker 1: her house as chastity Chase, which is pretty mean. It

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Speaker 1: is pretty mean. I mean, all of the shunning her

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Speaker 1: like mean stuff to do. But in some cases she

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Speaker 1: may have encouraged it a little bit. With the officers wives, especially,

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Speaker 1: she was quite rude to them. She would make pointed

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Speaker 1: wearing things that she didn't consider very culturally appropriate, like

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Speaker 1: him out on it. She even said about that quote,

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Speaker 1: I do wish that our women would show some suitability

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Speaker 1: in attire. Um. But but basically she didn't do anything

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Speaker 1: to try to be friendly to most of the people

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Speaker 1: she worked with. So meanwhile, eighteen months after the Ottoman

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Speaker 1: in Mesopotamia and the British were still in control, so

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Speaker 1: the Arab tribes rebelled. Wilson basically tried to squash this

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Speaker 1: uprising with brute force, bombs and the like, but this

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Speaker 1: only made things worse. Ten thousand Arabs lost their lives

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Speaker 1: during this time, and a few hundred British did as well.

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Speaker 1: Things changed though by October eleventh, nineteen twenty. By then

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Speaker 1: Wilson had been forced out and Belle's old friend Percy

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Speaker 1: Cox returned. He shared her view that the Arabs should

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Speaker 1: govern themselves, so this helped to kind of set things

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Speaker 1: in motion well. It also coincided nicely with the fact

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Speaker 1: that the then Colonial Secretary, Winston Churchill was ready to

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Speaker 1: put a stop to the enormous economic drain of these

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Speaker 1: Arab rebellions. They were quite expensive, so he called his

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Speaker 1: best experts on the Middle East together to a conference

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Speaker 1: in Egypt to figure out how exactly they were going

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Speaker 1: to make this new Arab government work. He invited forty

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Speaker 1: experts total. Only one woman was there, Gertrude. Of course,

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Speaker 1: her old buddy Lawrence was in attendance as well, and

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Speaker 1: while it describes her showing up in Cairo in her

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Speaker 1: signature accessories, which were at a hat and furs, and

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Speaker 1: really getting right down to business, she helped determine the

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Speaker 1: borders of the new nation of Iraq, and the real

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Speaker 1: tricky part that was figuring out not where the country

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Speaker 1: would be, where its borders would be, but who was

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Speaker 1: going to lead this new nation. Yeah, because there were

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Speaker 1: so many different groups to consider, just to name a few,

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Speaker 1: the Shiites, the Sunnes, the Kurds, the Jewish community as well.

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Speaker 1: Who could they find? This was the question. Who could

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Speaker 1: they find who would be accepted by all of these people?

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Speaker 1: So they finally decided on making them a key the

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Speaker 1: Sunni holy Man of bad Dad, the prime minister, and

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Speaker 1: for that king position that was so key, they thought

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Speaker 1: of Prince Faisal, whose family was said to be descendants

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Speaker 1: of the prophet Muhammad. Because of that connection, he'd appealed

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Speaker 1: to both the Shiites and the Sunni Muslims, but he

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Speaker 1: also had military and administrative experience that he'd proven during

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Speaker 1: the war and during the rebellion. Both Belle and Lawrence

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Speaker 1: argued heavily in his favor. They wanted Fisl as king,

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Speaker 1: and they convinced Churchill too, But of course the real

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Speaker 1: test was going to be whether they could convince the

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Speaker 1: Iraqi people. One major problem was that Fisel didn't have

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Speaker 1: any roots in Iraq. He had never even been to

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Speaker 1: the future country before, and according to Ellis, he even

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Speaker 1: spoke a different dialect of Arabic, so he really had

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Speaker 1: a lot to learn. But the Arabs didn't want a

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Speaker 1: ruler who was just so obviously a puppet of the British,

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Speaker 1: so it wasn't just about him learning things, it was

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Speaker 1: coming across authentic almost so after he arrived in Baghdad,

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Speaker 1: Gertrude really took him under her her wing, and again

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Speaker 1: she used her vast knowledge of the region to help

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Speaker 1: bring him up to speed, you know, helping him learn

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Speaker 1: about the different tribes and tribal geography, teaching him little

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Speaker 1: things like how to deal with businessmen in Baghdad, and

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Speaker 1: using her influence with tribal leaders to to win them over.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's kind of ironic when you think about it,

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Speaker 1: if this British woman is training this man to be

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Speaker 1: king and helping him really be authentic by sharing all

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Speaker 1: of her knowledge. But it seemed to work well. She

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Speaker 1: and Fisil ultimately became good friends. It took a few months,

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Speaker 1: but Fisel did win the widespread support of the Iraqis,

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Speaker 1: and he won the throne by a virtually unanimous vote.

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Speaker 1: He was crowned king on August twenty nine, and after

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Speaker 1: he took the throne, Gertrude remained one of his closest advisers,

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Speaker 1: both personally and politically, for for some time, and that's

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Speaker 1: how she became known in England and in Baghdad as

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Speaker 1: the uncrowned Queen of Iraq. So, of course this whole

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Speaker 1: process was a huge thrill for Gertrude, I mean nation

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Speaker 1: building and and being almost the personal tutor for the king.

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Speaker 1: She wrote home at one point quote, I feel at

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Speaker 1: times like the Creator. About the middle of the week,

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Speaker 1: he must have wondered what it was going to be

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Speaker 1: like his I do. I think that's kind of a

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Speaker 1: nod to some of the earlier notes we made about

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Speaker 1: Gertrude being quite confident. Sure so. Um. But as Iraq's

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Speaker 1: government strengthened under its new leadership. While it writes that

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Speaker 1: Bell became more of a social secretary devicele than anything else,

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Speaker 1: he he had learned what he needed to to function. Also,

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Speaker 1: Percy Cox retired, so her duties there were sort of

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Speaker 1: diminished in general, uh, phasing out a little bit at

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Speaker 1: this point. For a while, she went back into her

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Speaker 1: roots in archaeology, just kind of to have something to

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Speaker 1: do because she was a little bit bored. She went

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Speaker 1: to the Sumerian city of ric and found all of

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Speaker 1: these relics, and with Ficeles permission, she founded the country's

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Speaker 1: first museum of antiquities, temporarily housed in the Palace at Bagdad,

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Speaker 1: and that became her focus for a while. She would

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Speaker 1: supervise digs and she would save and catalog these treasures

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Speaker 1: of ancient Iraq that she found. In June of nine,

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Speaker 1: her archaeological museum officially open with a collection of more

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Speaker 1: than three thousand items. Still, though, and despite that accomplishment,

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Speaker 1: I mean, opening a museum, Gertrude still felt really depressed

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Speaker 1: and lonely and had become increasingly so in the years

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Speaker 1: leading up to to this point. She had lost a

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Speaker 1: lot of her influence in in Baghdad, as we mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and also many of her friends had left by this

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Speaker 1: point to her health had deteriorated, her family fortune had

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Speaker 1: dwindled and they lost their home in England. Her her

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Speaker 1: brother died, and she really regretted to not having uh

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Speaker 1: married earlier and having a family of her own, something

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Speaker 1: she she was upset about. So most people seem to

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Speaker 1: believe that it's this combination of reasons that on Sunday,

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Speaker 1: July eleven, she went to bed and purposely took an

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Speaker 1: extra dose of sleeping pills. She never woke up, but

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Speaker 1: it is good to know that she was at least

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Speaker 1: fully honored in death. She was given a full military

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Speaker 1: funeral by the British in bad Dad. She was buried there,

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Speaker 1: which seems quite fitting because at one point she even

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Speaker 1: wrote quote, I don't care to be in London much.

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Speaker 1: I like Baghdad and I like Iraq. It's the real

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Speaker 1: East and it's stirring. Things are happening here, and the

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Speaker 1: romance of it all touches me and absorbs me. Um.

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Speaker 1: So clearly she considered this her home and where she

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Speaker 1: wanted to be, and others there seemed to have connected

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Speaker 1: with her as well. Arabs apparently lined the streets to

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Speaker 1: say goodbye to her, and her influence was felt there

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Speaker 1: for a while. The regime that she helped establish with

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Speaker 1: Faisal was in power for thirty seven years before it

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Speaker 1: finally fell to revolutionaries again. Just really, it's interesting, especially

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Speaker 1: because of the way Iraq has made headlines in recent years,

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Speaker 1: that Gertrude's name isn't more widely known, but it may

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Speaker 1: be more widely known soon. Rumors of a movie project

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Speaker 1: have been kind of swirling around for a while. One rumor,

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Speaker 1: I think connected a Riddley Scott idea to Angelina Jolie,

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Speaker 1: who would have played Gertrude Bell. But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think that maybe that is fizzled out a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But there's a more recent rumor also involving Jude Law,

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Speaker 1: Robert Pattinson, and Naomi Watts as Gertrude Bell that's set

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Speaker 1: to begin filming, and I think in two thousand thirteen

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Speaker 1: that may be more than a rumor. That me that maybe,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we'll see, because we'll know soon enough, don't we.

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Speaker 1: It certainly seems like a good movie material. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think it is funny. I mean, you were just mentioning

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Speaker 1: it's strange she hasn't made, um, I don't know, made

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Speaker 1: more news or been connected to more news stories or

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Speaker 1: her name just isn't that widely known. I always have

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Speaker 1: thought of her as one of the lady travelers, but

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Speaker 1: clearly there's so much more going on. Lady travelers is

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Speaker 1: probably not a great category to put her in. Um

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Speaker 1: nation builder, you know, something like that. So many things,

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Speaker 1: and I still love that mountain climber aspect of her

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Speaker 1: personality too. It's easy to forge yet with all this

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Speaker 1: other stuff, so that she has the stint in her

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Speaker 1: youth climbing the Alps and a mountain that's named after her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Gertrude Spozza um pretty pretty great all around, so very

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Speaker 1: interesting to learn about her. I'm glad that we now

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Speaker 1: know the bigger picture, and I think it will certainly

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Speaker 1: inform just how I see current events too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is fairly recent history, it's not that long ago.

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Speaker 1: It's still pretty applicable in certain ways. Absolutely. I love

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Speaker 1: how these podcasts kind of and they give us more

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Speaker 1: knowledge about how the world sort of came to its

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Speaker 1: present state, and we learn a lot more about about

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Speaker 1: different areas. Sort of along the same lines. We have

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Speaker 1: some cool listener mail mail to share. It's not necessarily international,

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Speaker 1: I don't think, but it does take us to some

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Speaker 1: places outside our little city of Atlanta. Alright, on too,

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Speaker 1: listener mail. So first we have a real name audition.

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Speaker 1: We got quite a stack of postcards from listener Lars,

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Speaker 1: who was a comedian and and tours a lot um

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Speaker 1: all over the US and Canada as well, Chicago, Vancouver,

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Speaker 1: Key West. My favorite one though, and maybe this is

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Speaker 1: just because it is the favorite location of mine, is

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Speaker 1: Catalina Island in California, And all he wrote on this

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Speaker 1: postcard was you should go here. So have you been?

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Speaker 1: I have not. I'll put it on my list. It

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Speaker 1: will put this under the and and me too. It

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Speaker 1: really is a nice place. It's like about an hour

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Speaker 1: boat ride from l A and you just feel like

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Speaker 1: you're in another world. So thank you so much Lars

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Speaker 1: for all your postcards. Um, you guys know we love

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Speaker 1: receiving real mail, but we also love receiving emails from

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Speaker 1: you and Deblina. You've got an email today, I do,

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Speaker 1: and this one is referencing an episode that I was

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Speaker 1: not on She, but I thought it was so charming

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Speaker 1: I wanted to share it anyway. It's from listener Becky,

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Speaker 1: and she is talking about the episode that you did

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Speaker 1: with Holly, which was a lot of fun. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: she said that she wanted to say thank you for

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Speaker 1: Bloomers and Beyond the podcast that Sarah did with Holly

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Speaker 1: from pop Stuff. Not only did it serve as an

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Speaker 1: inspiration for a class presentation the anti dress reform movement,

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Speaker 1: but I used a clip from the podcasting class you

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Speaker 1: served as my introduction by quoting Havelock Ellis and his

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Speaker 1: crazy notions about women's morphological need for corsets. I'm a

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Speaker 1: graduate student in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and did this presentation and

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Speaker 1: reformers in the media class. So that's pretty cool. It's

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Speaker 1: really cool. And I shared that email with Holly too.

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Speaker 1: She was thrilled. I wish I could have been the presentation,

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Speaker 1: and I'd love to learn more about Havelock Ellis, I

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Speaker 1: mean Deliana, to catch you up on that, this guy

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Speaker 1: thought that if women didn't wear cord fits, we would

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Speaker 1: just melt into a pile of oregon. Oh, like there

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Speaker 1: aren't bones inside, you know, interesting like exo skeleton. That's

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Speaker 1: that's a much better way to put it in exo skeleton. Um.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you for writing and sharing and we're

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Speaker 1: thrilled that you are able to use the podcast for

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00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: your class and your presentation. If anybody else wants to

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00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: let us know something like that, or just share more

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00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: stories about Gertrude Bell. She has a popular suggestion, so

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00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: I know a lot of you guys she is. And

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Speaker 1: there are things, of course, as always that we didn't include. Yeah,

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00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 1: an action packed life for sure. You can email us.

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Speaker 1: We're at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're also

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at misst in history, and we are on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to learn a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about some of the ideas we talked about on this podcast, traveling,

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Speaker 1: for example, we have a lot of articles about traveling

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Speaker 1: on our website, which you can look up by visiting

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Speaker 1: our homepage at www dot how stuff works dot com

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Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is

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Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com un up in mat