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Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld, my guest is retired Army

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Speaker 1: Lieutenant General Keith Kellogg. General Kellogg spent one thousand, four

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Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two days in the White House, serving

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Speaker 1: with all four national security advisors to President Trump, longer

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Speaker 1: than any other national security appointee in that role. He

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Speaker 1: was involved in every major national security decision by the

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Speaker 1: President from two thousand and seventeen two twenty one. In

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Speaker 1: his new book War By Other Means, A General in

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Speaker 1: the Trump White House, General Kellogg provides a discerning eyewitness

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Speaker 1: account of those years and details President Trump's COVID nineteen response,

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Speaker 1: including the virus origins. He talks about the national security

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Speaker 1: decisions around North Korea and Russia, and the development of

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Speaker 1: Trump's Afghanistan plan, it Biden's mishandling of the exit. He

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Speaker 1: also describes what happened in the White House as the

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Speaker 1: events of January sixth and fold here to tell us

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Speaker 1: more about his experience in the Trump White House. I'm

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Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome my guest and my longtime friend,

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Speaker 1: General Keith Kellogg. He's dedicated his life to national service,

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Speaker 1: with tours of duty in Vietnam, Panama, and Iraq, as

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Speaker 1: well as commanding the eighty second Airborne Division before serving

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Speaker 1: in the White House. You know, you and I go

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Speaker 1: back when we were just talking about it. I think

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Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty seven or so at Port Irwin. And

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Speaker 1: if I call you Keith, and I hope you'll call

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Speaker 1: me nude. I want people know, not because I don't

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Speaker 1: have enormous respect for you as a general, but we're

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Speaker 1: just friends. And every time I go in to see

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Speaker 1: Vice President Pants, you and I would bounce into each other,

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Speaker 1: and you were always in the middle of almost every

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Speaker 1: major thing. So by happen to think war what other

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Speaker 1: means is a really really important concept which I think

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Speaker 1: all too many of our national security people, both in

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Speaker 1: the Pentagon and out don't understand. But before we get

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Speaker 1: to that, I'm just curious. Given your background in the army,

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Speaker 1: and as you know, my dad spent twenty seven years

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Speaker 1: in the infantry, what to you was the biggest surprise

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Speaker 1: of seeing the world from the White House rather than

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Speaker 1: from an army base. Now I'm going to be talked

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Speaker 1: about the Trump White House speaker. The biggest surprise I

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Speaker 1: had was the absolute resistance that I ran into, and

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Speaker 1: we all ran into when we were in the White

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Speaker 1: House with the Trump administration. You know, we walked in

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Speaker 1: there thinking after the twenty sixteen campaign that everybody would

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Speaker 1: come together, we'd kind of be okay, the typical bare

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Speaker 1: knuckles fighting politically speaking, but never resistance to the level

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Speaker 1: that I saw. And it was almost like this was

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Speaker 1: not the America that I read about, looked at, thought about,

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Speaker 1: had spent time in the military, even in the business world.

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Speaker 1: Who resistance that President Trump faced. It was interesting because

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Speaker 1: his daughter Ivanka said to me after about a year,

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Speaker 1: I never realized Washington would be this nasty. We all

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Speaker 1: kind of ran into the same things, like Jez, why

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Speaker 1: is this happening? And I think part of it was,

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Speaker 1: and I hate to say this, but the President ran

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Speaker 1: a very populoust campaign. He was looking at for people

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Speaker 1: in Washington, Kansas, not Washington, DC. And I think there's

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Speaker 1: a real hardcore organization in Washington, DC that does not

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Speaker 1: want to give up any type of power to the

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Speaker 1: people out in the Applyable States or anywhere else in

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Speaker 1: the United States. And we've seen some of that really permeated.

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Speaker 1: When you hear that the FBI is going to investigate

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Speaker 1: parents from complaining at a school board meeting. Something has

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Speaker 1: gone really seriously wrong, and how America's operating now. You

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Speaker 1: swore to uphold the Constitution and to protect the country

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Speaker 1: for enemies far an invest You also were right in

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Speaker 1: the center of trying to develop President Trump's Afghanistan plan.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, like me, you were totally appalled by the

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Speaker 1: way that Biden collapsed. Totally, But tell us for a

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Speaker 1: couple of minutes from your perspective, how would it have

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Speaker 1: been different had President Trump still been in charge. When

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Speaker 1: we came into the White House. The President said even

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Speaker 1: during the twenty and sixteen campaign that we were going

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Speaker 1: to get out of Afghanistan, but we're going to get

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Speaker 1: out in a reasonable manner. We talked about it on

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Speaker 1: the campaign plan and when he first came in, and

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Speaker 1: of course we had the succession of Dowst security advisors

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Speaker 1: that some were against it and some were for it.

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Speaker 1: You know, the Master was terribly against it, and Bolton

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Speaker 1: was terribly against it. And at least O'Brien and I

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Speaker 1: kind of worked side by side to get out of Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: But who want to do it in a reasonable manner?

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Speaker 1: And here's the big difference. And it took us two

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Speaker 1: years to finally get the plan in place that we

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Speaker 1: wanted to work. And how it all started is we

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Speaker 1: first said we have to have somebody we can work

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Speaker 1: with the Taliban. So we reached out to the Pakistanis

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Speaker 1: who would put the Mullah barader in jail, and we said,

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Speaker 1: let's get him out of jail and put him as

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Speaker 1: part of the Taliban negotiating team. So we went to

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Speaker 1: primemister Cohns to please release him, and he did to us,

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Speaker 1: and then he sent into Doha and he became part

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Speaker 1: of the negotiating team with our representatives Al Klisi, who

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Speaker 1: we put in place after two years after a lot

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Speaker 1: of resistance from earlier people, and they started working on

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Speaker 1: this plan of how to get out in a negotiated way,

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Speaker 1: because we thought the only way you're going to get

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Speaker 1: out of Afghanistan properly is to have a negotiated settlement.

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Speaker 1: So they went back and forth and finally we came

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Speaker 1: up with we called the Dohan Proclamation, which was signed

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Speaker 1: February twenty, twenty twenty, what set a certain number of

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Speaker 1: conditions out there. The first condition was the most important

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Speaker 1: and that it would be a reconciliation government between the

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Speaker 1: Ghani government and the Taliban, and until that was done,

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Speaker 1: we weren't going to withdraw ane of the forces. We're

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Speaker 1: going to put a floor on the forces of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five hundred, well over three thousand. Paramil Turner,

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Speaker 1: Genia haspell the CIA. We keep the NATO structure there,

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Speaker 1: and we keep the air bases there as well, Vagram

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Speaker 1: Air Base until all the conditions were made, and we

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Speaker 1: used one May as a forcing function, not as a

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Speaker 1: date certain. So we had this agreement with the Taliban

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Speaker 1: and they said, well, we're not going to attack any

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Speaker 1: US force as well. This is going on, and they didn't.

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Speaker 1: Not a single American was killed from February of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty till twenty January after we had left. I can't

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Speaker 1: talk after that, but they didn't kill anybody. They knew

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Speaker 1: that we were going to negotiate to come out of there.

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Speaker 1: The the impediment we had the progress was actually Ghani,

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Speaker 1: because Ghani did not want to negotiate at all with

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Speaker 1: the Taliban, and we kind of kept enforcing him to

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Speaker 1: do it. So we said, Okay, this is the way

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Speaker 1: it's going to be, this is the way it's going

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Speaker 1: to work. Where I think the mistake was made is

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Speaker 1: that Biden did not follow through on any discussions we

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Speaker 1: have with the Taliban. Here's a great example. On the

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Speaker 1: fourth of March, which is three days after we signed

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Speaker 1: Lead billhaw Declaration, was al Cloza did Trump picked up

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Speaker 1: the phone and he called Leberrador, who's the chief negotiator

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Speaker 1: for the Taliban, and told him in no uncertain terms.

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Speaker 1: And I was in the Oval office when he told

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Speaker 1: him that this is what's going to happen if you

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Speaker 1: do not fulfill this agreement going forward, and we know

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Speaker 1: where you live. And in fact, I sat there thinking

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Speaker 1: this is being translated. I wonder how it's being even

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Speaker 1: translated because it was such a strong set of language,

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Speaker 1: and it was the fourteen function was fourteen respect for

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Speaker 1: broader respect the United States of America. And they didn't

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Speaker 1: attack any US forces the entire time it happened. So

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Speaker 1: what happened is when Biden came in, we told him

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Speaker 1: what they had, We told him with the agreement that

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Speaker 1: we were working with. He kept zal Killzid as a

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Speaker 1: negotiator there, but he never picked up the phony, he

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Speaker 1: never called berardor and then he just established a date

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Speaker 1: certain we had told him, murmured, don't do that. Set him.

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Speaker 1: It's a moving target. Until they meet these conditions. That

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Speaker 1: target would not be met on full withdrawal. You will

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Speaker 1: keep those forces in place, the hidden secrets on all

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Speaker 1: of this though, it was when the election changed, who

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Speaker 1: was going to be in the White House. We know

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Speaker 1: that gone. He said, don't negotiate any further. He told

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Speaker 1: the chief negotiator, abdulah Abdullah, don't negotiate stall by him stalling.

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Speaker 1: Berarder picked up on it. Bidens did not pick up

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Speaker 1: the phone and called the Taliband to talk to him

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Speaker 1: about it. And after a period of time, actually after

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Speaker 1: one May, Barrado just said game on and they just

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Speaker 1: unleased him, and then the Taliban went for broke and

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Speaker 1: then you saw what was going to happen. So what

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Speaker 1: I saw was absolutely imbecilic decisions by the president and

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Speaker 1: his national security advisors, a national security team. Vice President

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Speaker 1: Pence made a comment on television just the other night.

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Speaker 1: He said, this never had to happen, and it didn't

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Speaker 1: because we had a pretty well set plan to get

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Speaker 1: out of there properly, and we was a number we

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Speaker 1: had never draw down from, which was twenty five hundred,

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Speaker 1: which was agreed to by everybody. It was agreed to

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Speaker 1: by the Defense Department, but the CIA, all of the

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Speaker 1: intelligence communities, by the State Department, and we knew we

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Speaker 1: could hold a twenty five hundred and still maintain some

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Speaker 1: balance in there. Supported again by Gene Haswell's thirty five.

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Speaker 1: It's a long answer to a pretty short question, but

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Speaker 1: that's kind of how we got to where we are at.

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Speaker 1: And then when they decided to get out of there

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Speaker 1: in a hurry, everything just fell apart. I'm curious you

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Speaker 1: had a major role in trying to stand up the

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Speaker 1: new Iraqi system after the war when we'd occupied Iraq,

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Speaker 1: so you'd seen the challenges in one particular overwhelmingly Muslim country,

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Speaker 1: and then, of course from a White House spandas point,

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Speaker 1: you were looking at the challenges in Afghanistan. How would

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Speaker 1: you compare the two just in terms of the difficulty

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Speaker 1: of getting things done with Iraq, you at least had

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Speaker 1: a relatively stable government backed by a lot of US forces,

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Speaker 1: more forces, and a lot of people realize that we

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Speaker 1: kept forces there, We kept the base there, you know,

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Speaker 1: we kept Alisad Air Base. I think Alisade think of

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Speaker 1: Boggram Air Base. In Afghanistan, and we also were of

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Speaker 1: a compliant government that was willing to work with us.

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Speaker 1: We had Prime Minister Kademi come over, you know, the

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Speaker 1: current prime minister in Iraq. He was very friendly. This

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Speaker 1: is what he wanted to do, was a very open discussion.

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Speaker 1: We sat in the cabinet room with his entire team.

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Speaker 1: This is what we want to have happened, this is

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Speaker 1: where we want to go. Even though it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a tough relationship, it's a relationship built on

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Speaker 1: a lot of respect. And when ISIS came into play

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Speaker 1: in Iraq and also Syria, we fell in a lot

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Speaker 1: of military forces to support him in defeating ISIS going forward.

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Speaker 1: You know, ISIS was created, frankly because the Obama administration,

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Speaker 1: you know when they basically said I remember ISIS was

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Speaker 1: a JV team. They went out there and started they

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Speaker 1: control Mosul and then they went over to Rocca in Syria.

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Speaker 1: We put a lot of military troops and forces on

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Speaker 1: top of that and helped the Iraqis defeat that. So

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Speaker 1: it was a much more compliant government. There were much

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Speaker 1: more friendly to the United States. They were willing to

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Speaker 1: work it and there was a level of respect between

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Speaker 1: both of us, We reached out to every single party

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Speaker 1: in Iraq, to include Souder mcdada. Sauder maybe didn't like

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Speaker 1: the Americans, but at least respect to the Americans of

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Speaker 1: the force we had there. So there was a level

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Speaker 1: of trust and respect that we never got with the

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Speaker 1: Ghani government. And we actually were working better with the

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Speaker 1: Taliban than we were with a Ghani government at the end.

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Speaker 1: And that was kind of a little bit of dark humor.

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Speaker 1: It was startling how rapidly Ghani left the country and

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Speaker 1: how much money he took with him. Do you think

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Speaker 1: he had always planned that kind of escape opportunity. Look,

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Speaker 1: I had no faith at all in Ghani. Trump didn't,

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Speaker 1: Pence didn't, None of us had trust and confidence in Ghani.

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Speaker 1: And we had actually threw Zal Khalil's honor. Scheff representative

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Speaker 1: had basically told Ghani he was not going to be

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Speaker 1: part of a government of national reconciliation. He was going

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Speaker 1: to be gone out there. When he came to the

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Speaker 1: White House with the President Biden, you know, Biden did

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Speaker 1: not read him the Riot Act. That's what he should

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Speaker 1: have done. He brought in his chief negotiator with him,

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Speaker 1: of Abdullah Abdulla. They sat in the Oval office and

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Speaker 1: it was just everybody seemed to be happy it was

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Speaker 1: going fine, swimmingly, and that he should have taken that

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Speaker 1: opportunity to heat Biden and laid down the law to

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Speaker 1: Ghani on what would happen is right after that, meaning

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Speaker 1: you could see where the Taliban really really increased the

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Speaker 1: pressure going forward. In fact, the indications we got in

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Speaker 1: stating constant contact was ow that the Taliban actually were

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Speaker 1: very very surprised how fast it actually moved forward on

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Speaker 1: them taking over at Cannasty. Yeah, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: the whole thing collapsed so rapidly they could barely get

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Speaker 1: to the next town before it surrendered. But that's what

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Speaker 1: happens when morale breaks and people lose faith. We had

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Speaker 1: designed an Afghan army that required American support and required

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Speaker 1: competent air power, and then when we pulled the legs

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Speaker 1: out from under it very much like what happened in

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Speaker 1: Vietnam and seventy five. When word spreads that we're going

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Speaker 1: to lose, people start to collapse, and of course then

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Speaker 1: to have the president of your country leave with a

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Speaker 1: couple hundred million dollars has to be a disgusting sense

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Speaker 1: of this is over, and I wish there was a

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Speaker 1: way to go after the money, because I'm sure most

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Speaker 1: of the money he stole as ours. I get the

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Speaker 1: sense that Afghanistan was vastly more corrupt than a wreck,

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Speaker 1: that from the very beginning we found it really hard

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Speaker 1: to find partners who were not willing to be in

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Speaker 1: effect either rented or bought, and a great deal of

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Speaker 1: our aid money went into a system in which the

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Speaker 1: corruption was open and normal. It wasn't like it was unusual,

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Speaker 1: it was an expected part of the society. Yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 1: I really believe you're correct on it's more corrupt. But

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Speaker 1: here's the other one, that formal military guy. I kind

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Speaker 1: of hate to say this. We just kept lying to ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We kept lying to ourselves for twenty years that everything

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Speaker 1: was fine and we knew what was going on, we

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Speaker 1: know what was happening there, and for twenty years, actually

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Speaker 1: I say eighteen because I think the first two years

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Speaker 1: we were in Afghanistan's were righteous. We went after Osama

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Speaker 1: bin Laden and we could ks him in Guantanamo and

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Speaker 1: we did anything right. Then for the next eighteen years

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Speaker 1: we started doing things. I think we're kind of stupid,

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Speaker 1: and we kind of allowed that to happen. We didn't

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Speaker 1: throw the flag and say this is what's happening, this

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Speaker 1: is what's going on. We kind of said, Okay, we

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Speaker 1: know this corruption, let's just continue to go with it.

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Speaker 1: And I blame a lot of people who have known

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Speaker 1: for years, a lot of senior military officers, have any

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Speaker 1: of them retired, that you kept pushing this narrative for

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Speaker 1: everybody going along that everything was going to be fine

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Speaker 1: next year. We're turning in the corner. Just give me

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Speaker 1: another dollar, just give me another pint of blood, just

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Speaker 1: a little more time going forward, we have to these

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Speaker 1: people are corrupt. We know they're corrupt. We've been paying money,

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Speaker 1: We're paying their military, and it's almost like it's a

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Speaker 1: ghost army. You know, a lot of people said, once

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Speaker 1: you pay them on a payday, you didn't see him

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Speaker 1: for another month, and we kept pushing that. I think

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Speaker 1: by in that regard, and I know the language is strong,

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Speaker 1: we lied to the American people. We were telling everything

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Speaker 1: was fine when it really wasn't fine. We were backing

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Speaker 1: up a corrupt government. We allowed it to happen, and

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Speaker 1: I think what happened we got so fixated on Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: we lost our strategic I think focus in the military,

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Speaker 1: and that is one of the reasons why I think

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Speaker 1: we lost the march on what the Chinese were doing

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Speaker 1: and also the Russians were doing with a lot of

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Speaker 1: art research and technology going forward, because we were so

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Speaker 1: focused on this terrorism counter terrorism issue in Afghanistan when

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Speaker 1: actually the terroristrart was growing outside of Afghanistan in Africa

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Speaker 1: and other places in the Middle East. We did a

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Speaker 1: podcast recently with the Washington Post reporter who just published

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Speaker 1: a book called the Afghanistan Papers, and he had actually

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Speaker 1: found that there was a Special Office of the Inspector

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Speaker 1: General for Afghanistan and they had been gathering exactly what

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Speaker 1: you said. I mean, they had twenty years of internal

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Speaker 1: pretty candid comments by many of senior officers who said,

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Speaker 1: we don't know what's going on, we don't understand our

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Speaker 1: metrics or nonsense. I mean, it's a remarkable indictment of

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Speaker 1: the core system. And in my mind, having grown up

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Speaker 1: in the old army that had fought World War Two

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Speaker 1: in Korea and had a real sense of commitment to

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Speaker 1: the country and a real toughness because they've been in

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Speaker 1: such big fights. You know, I look at Milius, ultimate

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Speaker 1: product of eighteen years of decay internally, and I'm astonished

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Speaker 1: at number of the things he's doing. But I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: both from your national security background, but also from your

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Speaker 1: long career in the US Army, what's your reaction to

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Speaker 1: the current process that's underway in the Pentagon. Mark Billy

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Speaker 1: and I go back probably twenty five years. We were

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Speaker 1: officers together in the invasion Panama during operation Just cause

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Speaker 1: I've known him for years, and in the last six months,

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Speaker 1: I sent him a note. I never got a response.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I said, I think your actions are

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Speaker 1: actually seditious and I think you should leave his chairman

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Speaker 1: of the Joint Cheesy Staff. I think he has become

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Speaker 1: incredibly polarized and political, and it's something I never saw

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Speaker 1: from cold and Powell to Hugh Shelton, to Dick Myers,

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Speaker 1: to Pete Pays to Joe Dunford. He's taken a role

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Speaker 1: that is incredibly incredibly political, and I think he forgot

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Speaker 1: what his primary role is was the principal military advisor

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Speaker 1: to president, to the National Security Council and the Secretary

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Speaker 1: of Defense. And it really struck me when he made

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Speaker 1: a comment on the eighth of January call to the

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Speaker 1: Chinese one. He said, well, I told Mike Pompeo, and

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Speaker 1: I told Mark Meadows, the chief staff of the White House,

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Speaker 1: and my immediate reaction was, bars, I know that's not

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Speaker 1: in your duty description. You're not the principal of military

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Speaker 1: advisor to Mark Meadows, the chief of staff of the

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Speaker 1: White House. You're the principal military advisor to the President.

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Speaker 1: You never even told him about your call, and because

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Speaker 1: of that, I would have fired him immediately. I think

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Speaker 1: you should have been gone. I think he'd become very

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Speaker 1: political and working with it, and I think that's now

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Speaker 1: permeated down the chain. People see that, people know what's

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Speaker 1: going on. I think he forgot what his primary role was,

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Speaker 1: which is to turn up the turns fales win our

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Speaker 1: nation's wars. Unfortunately, I think, and this is one of

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Speaker 1: the byproducts of Afghanistan in the twenty Year War. I

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Speaker 1: think the senior levels of the officers corps are kind

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Speaker 1: of the same way now. They become very, very politicized

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Speaker 1: in how they're going forward. I remember reading POGs four

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Speaker 1: books on George C. Marshall and what George C. Marshall

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Speaker 1: did in nineteen forty when he basically stripped the senior

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Speaker 1: leaders out of the army and the senior military and

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Speaker 1: replaced them with more or agile officers. And that's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons Dwight to Eisenhower moved up three hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty positions almost overnight. And maybe if I was

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Speaker 1: king for a day, that's where I probably come in

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Speaker 1: and say, maybe we ought to do that, Maybe we

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Speaker 1: ought to strip out the four and three stars and

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Speaker 1: say let's start all over again and rebuild it, and

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Speaker 1: let's build a military that will fight in and win

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Speaker 1: our nation's wars. I know it's a harsh comment, but

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Speaker 1: I actually believe there's some merit to it. I've always

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Speaker 1: been fascinated because I think people really underestimate how much

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Speaker 1: Marshall reshaped the entire War Department before the war. And

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Speaker 1: you're exactly right. You have a guy like eisen to

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Speaker 1: go from lieutenant colonel to three stars at a speed

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Speaker 1: that must have been almost like he must have thought

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Speaker 1: at times he had just slowed down and decompress because

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Speaker 1: the changes were so quick. But Marshall was doing that

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Speaker 1: across the board and had a little book he'd collected

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Speaker 1: for like twenty years of what he thought were the

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Speaker 1: young hard chargers, and he kept promoting them, and the

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Speaker 1: result was a dramatically more agile military than we'd had

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Speaker 1: before that. But I'm curious, you're sitting in the White House.

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Speaker 1: You see all the stuff going by you. You have

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Speaker 1: the intelligence community, the State Department, the Defense Department, to

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Speaker 1: some extent, Treasury, all of them having an impact on

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Speaker 1: what's going on. How much different is the view from

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Speaker 1: the national security standpoint in the White House from anything

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Speaker 1: you'd experienced before that? There was no comparison at all.

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Speaker 1: It was a massive jump because the decisions you're making

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Speaker 1: when you're in the Oval Office with the President or

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Speaker 1: in the national security meetings, in the situation, you have

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Speaker 1: to realize these or significant decisions that are well above

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Speaker 1: you've seen you before, and they really are because not

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Speaker 1: just the importance of it, but the speed in which

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Speaker 1: they need to be made. Here was the kind of

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Speaker 1: way I explained it to some people when I would

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Speaker 1: bring people in the National Security Council when I'm interviewed,

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Speaker 1: I said, look, there's no room for training wheels in

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Speaker 1: this organization. You're ready to go right away. But they

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Speaker 1: say would understand that when their crisis occurs. For the

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Speaker 1: president in the United States, you're already behind the curve

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Speaker 1: because the other side already has initiated something and you

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Speaker 1: are responding to what they've initiated. So you must immediately

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Speaker 1: come up to speed and then accelerate and get ahead

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Speaker 1: of where they were at. And those decisions have to

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Speaker 1: be made rapidly with a lot of confidence and giving

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Speaker 1: watching because you were committing, for the most part, the

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Speaker 1: national security of the United States and all the instruments

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Speaker 1: that are inherented that with the military and the State

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Speaker 1: Department and everything else. Sort of like the old wire

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Speaker 1: diagram in the military. I used to show people, Guys,

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Speaker 1: there's nobody above us. We're the top block in the

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Speaker 1: wire diagram. There's nobody that you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: ask questions have You got to make those decisions really rapidly.

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Speaker 1: That's the reason why I thought it was tremendously interesting

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Speaker 1: to me, and I think it was very illustrative when

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Speaker 1: I saw what was happening in Afghanistan recently showed pictures

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Speaker 1: of the President Biden, but Camp David by himself, without

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Speaker 1: his national security We had a rule. It was an

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Speaker 1: unspoken rule. But if something happened in the White House

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Speaker 1: and the crisis occurred, everybody would collapse on the president

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Speaker 1: vice president. You were there. You didn't ask permission. You

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Speaker 1: walked into the over or you walked into the sit room,

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Speaker 1: all the senior members out there, because you knew right

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Speaker 1: away the rapidity of the decisions that you had to

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Speaker 1: make were very, very important, because you cannot wait. Time

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Speaker 1: will kill you. And weakness is a threat or anything

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Speaker 1: going for because weakness actually creates the adversary to make

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Speaker 1: more and more tough decisions. And when I meet my

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Speaker 1: rapidity of decision, I'll just give you one example. When

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Speaker 1: we went after solo money, we went into the president,

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Speaker 1: we actually went into the yellow oval up in the residence.

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Speaker 1: Then we're talking to him about it, and you know

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Speaker 1: a lot of people think, Okay, we'll come back with

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Speaker 1: a couple of recommendations. See what you think. He made

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Speaker 1: that decision that day, that morning, let's get solo money.

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Speaker 1: And the policy behind that was super escalation and a

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Speaker 1: lot of time in the government. What I found in

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Speaker 1: other organizations, like when you're in defense, that people go

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Speaker 1: incremental escalation. Okay, if they did this, you would do

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Speaker 1: this one step up, one step up, he believed, and

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Speaker 1: I really recommended to him what I called super escalation.

432
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: If they do something at this level, you go six

433
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: or seven levels above that immediately, and you send a

434
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 1: message to him. Your survival as a nation's at stake

435
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 1: if you want to keep pushing this, And that's what

436
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 1: we did with Solo money. We basically told the Rainian government,

437
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: the Supreme Leader, you want to list, you're next, and

438
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: we're going to come after you. And their response showed

439
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 1: they got that because their response after we killed Solomoni

440
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 1: was to basically fire some missiles into the desert near

441
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: Alisad air Base that didn't kill anybody or hurt anybody.

442
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: And they told us in advance, this is what we're

443
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: going to do. We're going to miss you guys, and

444
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the situation that they didn't

445
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: believe they really met what they said, but they didn't.

446
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: And because of that, the president sitting in the sit

447
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: room thought what was going on, said Okay, we're done,

448
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: and that to me is the decision making. It is

449
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: so much different than everywhere else that you see in

450
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: any other government organization, you know, along that same line

451
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: and I've heard Trump talk about this, that the going

452
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: after the head of isis the Ghatti, and then going

453
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: after Solomani in a way set the stage for the

454
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: Taliban taking Trump very very seriously because they'd seen what

455
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: he'd done. But it was a fact. It wasn't rhetor

456
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: rick or posturing. Did you have that same feeling that

457
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: he was beginning to be dealt with as a force

458
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: that was vastly more capable than the people were interacting with,

459
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: and that because he was prepared to use it, it

460
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: gave him an unusual level of leverage. President Trump was

461
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: fearless in the use of force. He would listen, dude,

462
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: he didn't like it when I told him this, I said, well,

463
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: you're a reluctant warrior, and he got a little bit angry.

464
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: I said, no, no, no, Await a second, that's a compliment,

465
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: because this means, I know, as a former military guy,

466
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: you will use force only when absolutely necessary. You will

467
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: commit it. But when you do commit it, you commit

468
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: it with overwhelming force. Going forward, and a lot of

469
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: times he overruled Madison, over ruled Dunford, who were always

470
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: very incremental. They said, well, let's just raise it a

471
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 1: little bit higher, you know, sort of a quid pro quel,

472
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: And his point was always got a lot higher and

473
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: hit him harder and make him understand that. And he

474
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: actually in all presidents too, he really grew into his position.

475
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: He kind of understood it more and more, and he

476
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 1: understood the importance of the use of force, not only

477
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: going after Baghdaddy, but also when he went after Solomony,

478
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: but even earlier with that, when he fired missiles into

479
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: Syria when they used nerve gas. Remember Obama had the

480
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: famous red line when they crossed this red line and

481
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: use nerve gas, we're going to go after him. Well,

482
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: they crossed that red line. And I remember sitting in

483
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: the situation room with him, we were talking about it.

484
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: I said, you know, mister President, I'm going to make

485
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: it real clear to you. You know they used Sarah

486
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: nerve gas. We know they used it on their civilians.

487
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: And said, this was a nerve gas developed by the

488
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: Nazis from World War Two and it was such an

489
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: egregious weapon that the Nazis never even used it. And

490
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: I said, and here they're using it against civilians. You've

491
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: got to make a stand and make a point. And

492
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, let's do it. So when Madness came in,

493
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: he said, well, this is where we want to go

494
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: and use this and so many missiles. We upped the missiles,

495
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: but at that time the president even want to make

496
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: it a much stronger strike. We didn't. And the lesson

497
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: he learned from that was, I think my generals were

498
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: more cautious than I am. And I said, well they are,

499
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: because that's how they kind of look at it. I

500
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: believe in this thing called what I said earlier, super escalation.

501
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: And he started to really believe in that and started

502
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: to understand that, and he unleashed the military forces that

503
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: he had. And I think because of that, everybody, and

504
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: I don't care who it was, I don't care if

505
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: it's a supreme leader in Iran or Putin or she.

506
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: They all saw what he was trying to do, including

507
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: Kim Jongoon and Kim John saw that as well. They

508
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: all kind of understood, Okay, this guy is serious and

509
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: he is willing to use force. He doesn't have any limits.

510
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: What he means by limits, He's not afraid to go

511
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: to levels that we have never seen before. And I

512
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: think President Trump did that. I think he protected the

513
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: United States. I think people were afraid to go after it. Look,

514
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: we never had a single Chinese aircraft's already approached Taiwan,

515
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: like one hundred and fifty that just approached last week.

516
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: That never happened because he made it very clear to she,

517
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: don't go there. You carry a battled group. Five out

518
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: of the seventh Fleet will show up on your doorstep

519
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: right in the middle of the time. I want straits

520
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: if that's what you want to do. And he was

521
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: pretty clear. Not only did he grow in a job,

522
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: but it was the way he believed in the use

523
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: of military force, and he thought that force would prevail

524
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: any force. Respect He also had an ability to sort

525
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: of take risk at the margin. I'm curious when he

526
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: stepped over into North Korea, which I think was symbolically

527
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: a big deal in North Korea, had that been thought

528
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: through or was that just an intuitive response to the conversation. Yeah,

529
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to say it was stopped through.

530
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't. It was intuitive. It almost felt like he

531
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,239
Speaker 1: was treating Kim like a younger brother, like, let me

532
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: show you the way to govern going forward, and Kim

533
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 1: it took time, took some confidence in faith, but after

534
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: a while Kim picked up on that, and Kim started

535
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: to have this level of trust and understanding. And I

536
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: think by the way it's carried over now even with

537
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: North Korea, because we saw his last military parade. We

538
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: didn't have any new weapons being shown. It was primarily

539
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: a health parade more than any else. He saw that.

540
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: And by the way, the President dead with others as well,

541
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: like mcrone who treats I thought like another younger brother.

542
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: Kim saw that, and I think because of that, the

543
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: tensions really dropped off on that. I think if Trump

544
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: had stayed and we would have had some type of

545
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: agreement with North Korea this year. By the way it

546
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: was was interesting, is everybody pushed back on Trump on

547
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: the way he dealt with North Korea. John Bolton, did

548
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: you had McMaster, You had all of them out there

549
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: saying this is not the way to go. And he said, no,

550
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to treat this guy as a human being

551
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: and sit and talk to him and see if we

552
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: can have some type of understanding. And because of that,

553
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: especially in the last year, there was some pretty good

554
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: relations and I think we had a breakthrough and he

555
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: hears what's interesting, but the president was pushing was economics.

556
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: He said, you know, you can keep raising weapons and

557
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: will keep raising weapons, and you add more weapons and

558
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: will add more weapons. But we can help you economically.

559
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: We can get you out of where your actiday going

560
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: forward economically and how you look like South Korea and

561
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: become an economic powerhouse. And that resonated with him, and

562
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: I think if you see what Kim Jonon's doing today,

563
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: it is much more economically based in the military base.

564
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: So I think Trump kind of these personal relationships, which

565
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: he believed very very important, and how he led His

566
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: whole idea was if I can establish a personal relationship

567
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: with people, I don't care if it's Putent, if it she,

568
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: it's Kim jongon or whoever, I think we can get

569
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: further along and trying to make this a safer world.

570
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: And I think he was right. There was a lot

571
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: of people who didn't agree with him, but he believed

572
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: personal leverage was very very important. I was resonally with

573
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: former Secretary of State Pompeo, who it's very emotional talking

574
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: about having gone into North Korea and gotten three people

575
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: who had been held hostage for a long time, had

576
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: been prisoners, and he saw that all as part of

577
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: the Trump effect, that you had a gradual opening up

578
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: and willingness to cooperate coming out of North Korea that

579
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: we'd really never seen before. Again, that's all President Trump,

580
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: and I really believe he said this is a way

581
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: to go forward. When you came into the White House,

582
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: you asked a question earlier about it was interesting to

583
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: me watching for lack of a Trump the old guard

584
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: people say no, this isn't the way you get forward

585
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: with North Korea or anybody else. He said, everybody knows

586
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm willing to walk away from a bad deal. Kim

587
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: Jong Uton found out the hard way when we actually

588
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: walked away from a deal in Hanoi, when you just

589
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: actually left lunch on the table and walked out the door.

590
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: Gun his airplane flew home, which stunned Kim Jong Moon,

591
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: and you know all the reports we got later that

592
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: he was very very surprised as happened. But he made

593
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: the point, if I don't get a good deal, I'm

594
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: not going to stick around and talk to you and

595
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: have lunch with you. And I really believe that was important.

596
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: You know, Mike Pompeoti was credit. He was the one

597
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 1: who actually broke the deal to finally get them together.

598
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: It all worked together because he and the President basically

599
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: worked arm in arm to get this going forward. And

600
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: I just saw it, and I think it worked. I

601
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: think the old guard was done by Here's what's interesting.

602
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: They've gone back to the old ways now. I mean,

603
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: if you look at what Biden has done, he's reverted

604
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: to form of everything that had been done before, and

605
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: I don't think he's going to be successful at all

606
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: in anything. Well, you know, you had the same thing

607
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: happening in the Middle East, where people who had twenty

608
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: and thirty years invested in a particular approach which kept failing,

609
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: where I think deeply offended that the Trump approach actually

610
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: was working. It's kind of weird, but he was doing

611
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: things that they deeply opposed and the sort of repudiated

612
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: twenty years or twenty five years of failure. And I

613
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: suspect they will try to undermine it and go back

614
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: to the old order now because somehow their professional reputations

615
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: require that we do things that are stupid, because that's

616
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: what everybody that an applauance. Well, you know, going back

617
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: to the Kerry approach when he was the Secretary of State,

618
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: here's this interesting today. The Abraham Accords were assigned in

619
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: the South Lawn and the White House. There was a

620
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: lunch afterwards, and I sat next to Tony Blair at

621
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: the former United Kingdom Prime Minister, and he looked at

622
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: me and he said, you guys got this one right.

623
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: And I excuse me, He said, you approach this from

624
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: a totally different way we'd ever thought about approaching it,

625
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: which is basically a go after all of the other

626
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: outliers that are out there to have a good economic

627
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: relationship with Israel, and eventually the Palestinians will come your way.

628
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: All the rest of us kept saying, if you don't

629
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: go through the Palestinians first, you'll never get any success.

630
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,719
Speaker 1: You've turned it on its head and you reversed it.

631
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: And later we saw Biby not in Yahoo, and he

632
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: said it in the Blairhouse said exactly the same thing.

633
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: And I think Trump saw that, and Jared Kushner helped

634
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: work at with all that work on the Abraham Accords,

635
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: and I thought we started to turn the Middle East

636
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: towards a more economic view of the world than a

637
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: military of view of the world. And that's where I

638
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,479
Speaker 1: keep going back. And I said that common earlier that

639
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: the president was a reluctant warrior. He really believed in

640
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: the use of policy and personal relationship to get stuff done.

641
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: He knew he always had the military hammer. He always

642
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: knew that, and he always knew he could use it,

643
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: but he approached it differently. That's where he's The Abraham

644
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: Accords I think worked pretty well. That's when you see

645
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: some pretty good economic work between the UAA and Israel

646
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: going forward. And just as an acide because I think

647
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: you'll appreciate this one. You know, when we're talking with Afghanistan,

648
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: he talked one time about bringing all the members and

649
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: the discussions to Camp David, and you see that in

650
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: the press out there. People basically fell on the floor

651
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: in the situation with when he said I'm going to

652
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: bring the Taliban and got it to Camp David. And

653
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: I said, wait, stop guys, because I said, you guys

654
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: have forgot your history. I said, Carter did that. He

655
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: did it with Monacham began and did Anamar Sadat. He

656
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: took him to Camp David. You know, he basically fed

657
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: him cold pizza and warm beer and for twelve days

658
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: they hammered out to Camp David. Accords. That's where the

659
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: president comes from. And I said, he has an interesting

660
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: view of the world that is to contrary to what

661
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: you see, and you saw that in the Middle East,

662
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: something that nobody else has done previously, because he thought

663
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: that that method was wrong. Given the centrality of Trump

664
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: to all this, how much did all of the continuous

665
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: effort over impeachment and investigations and what have you, how

666
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: much did that distract from focusing on the issues of

667
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: national security. I think it took a tremendous toll that.

668
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: To give credit to the president, he kept fighting through it.

669
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: But you know, for four years and we felt we

670
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: were under siege in the White House. It was almost

671
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: like every single day you walked in the door and

672
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: somebody was coming after you. They wanted to impeach him

673
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: before its inauguration, and because of that, we had to

674
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: fight every single day both a personal battle a public

675
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: relations battle going forward. And it takes a toll on

676
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: you because you're constantly under pressure and the pressures in

677
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: the White House, and you know that from being around

678
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: here in washingtonc are absolutely enormous, and you have to

679
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: have focused and you have to fight your way to

680
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: make sure that good focus and fight your way into

681
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: that mindset going forward. And then when you add on

682
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 1: not only impeachment, but then when you added on coronavirus

683
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: that hit afterwards, and then you have an election, you're

684
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: going forward. I have no idea very candily, I don't

685
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: know how he made it through that year. But yet

686
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: he always kept a good sense of humor. You know,

687
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: I used to say, people, you don't understand President Trump.

688
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: When I wrote the book, I wanted to actually tile

689
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: it behind closed doors because when he was one on

690
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: one and shot with him in the oval, officer and

691
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: shit to talk him, and you know that he was

692
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: a little bit of a different person when he went

693
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: in front of the Kleague lights and I said, WHOA,

694
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: who's that guy out there? But it was enormous distraction,

695
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: and I think it hurt America because it helped the

696
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: divide America and some of the stuff was just absolutely garbage.

697
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: When I was called in front of the Mower Commission

698
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: on the Russia Gate issue, I was the first guy

699
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: at the White House to go sit in front of

700
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: the motor team and I sat down with him. By

701
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: the way, I didn't even take a lawyer, which President

702
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: Trump to this day, says, I can't believe it was

703
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: an iddy you are. But I said, now, my dad

704
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: told me once, just tell the truth. You only need

705
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: to have one story in your mindset of too. But

706
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: I sat down with him. I said, look, you don't

707
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: understand that during the election twenty sixteen, we only had

708
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: eighty people in the election team told well under the

709
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: three hundred Hillary had. They're in New York City. I said,

710
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: we couldn't even collude among ourselves. Half the time little

711
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: and coluded with the Russians. There was nothing going on.

712
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: But yet we had to fight through that the whole way.

713
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: And here's the impact on that. He wanted to reach

714
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,479
Speaker 1: out to Putin. He thought it was important we talked

715
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: to the Russians. There was a lot of things we

716
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: could have done with the Russians going forward, and Putin

717
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: knew that. You know, when the coronavisors was going on,

718
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: we were very concerned about Putin's national security team getting

719
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: the virus. We had the Abbot point of care where

720
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: you could test right away with Abbot, but we sent

721
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 1: him some of those devices because we know we didn't

722
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: have them. And the reason we sent him the Abbot

723
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: devices was to make sure he could test his national

724
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: security team, because we need to keep them up and running.

725
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: Prutin made a comment to him, He said, during a

726
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: phone call, mister President, Police, don't tell anybody you sent

727
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 1: us these and the President will okay. But why, he said,

728
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: because it'll just put another nail in your coffin on

729
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: people distrusting in Russia. And we know that we tried

730
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: to do something that was positive from a national security

731
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: viewpoint to make sure his name security him was solid

732
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: and he was okay, And yet he was so concerned.

733
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: He even saw from his viewpoint that all the press

734
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: wanted was to bring him down and this would just

735
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: be another nail they would use on him. And I

736
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: thought this was the distraction we faced on the first year,

737
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: the second year of the third year that we had

738
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: to roma virus. So a long answer to short question,

739
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: it was a constant battle. We just had to fight

740
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: our way through it. And I think to accredit to

741
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people there, they were able to fight

742
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: through it, and accredit to Donald Trump that he was

743
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: able to work through it as well. I understand he

744
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: had forts Vernie harsh tweets, but I thought the policies

745
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: were pretty good for four years. I've had a similar

746
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: experience to year as although it wasn't with him nearly

747
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: as much as you were. When the door closed, he

748
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: would shift into asking questions, telling stories, trying to make

749
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: things work in his own head, and he was substantially

750
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: more engaging person than when he was in front of

751
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: a TV camera. Sort of the entertainer took over when

752
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: the TV lights went on. To me, he was very

753
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: socratic in his decision making. I remember one of the

754
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: very first times were in the situation room. He went

755
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: around the room. He would have a way of asking questions,

756
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: and if you were in the room, you were going

757
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: to get asked a question. You were there, you were

758
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: going to talk. And I remember I was sitting there

759
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: one of the very first times in a young woman

760
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: two seats down from me in the sit room. The

761
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: president said, well, what's your opinion? And she goes, mister President,

762
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: I'm just the note dick. He goes, you're in the room,

763
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: what's your opinion? And he would do that. He would

764
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: go around and ask the questions, and I think in

765
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: his mind he was trying to get not only a

766
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: sense of the room, but firm up what he believed.

767
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: I used to constantly tell him, mister President, trust your instincts.

768
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: They're really, really, really good. And I really grew to

769
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: admire the way he made those decisions because they were

770
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: not one of decisions. He would sit down, he would listen,

771
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: and he actually did listen to him. You know. I

772
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: remember during the coronavirus people said, well, listen to the doctors.

773
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: We had seven doctors on the Coronavirus Task Wars seven

774
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: and we listened to them all the time. Sometimes I

775
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: think we listened to them too much. But he would

776
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: always listen. He would sit there in the Oval office

777
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: or in the situation room or one on one and

778
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: he would make these comments. And one time he made

779
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: a comment during the height of the coronavirus Taskwars and

780
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: just sit and looked at me and goes, you know,

781
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: I just want Americans to gut better. I said, mister President,

782
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: why don't you go out and say it just that

783
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: way to the American people. He said, no, no, no, no,

784
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: they want a strong leader. After he just looked at

785
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: this two different ways, and he believed in strength and

786
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: having strength and portraying that to the American people, and

787
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: he wanted to them they had a strong leader in charge,

788
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: and I think he did that. But there was also

789
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: a side I saw him that I grow to really

790
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: really admire that. I said, I wish him more Americans

791
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: saw him than I saw him. After not just four years,

792
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: but almost six years counting the campaign going forward, you

793
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: were one of the few people who a really broad

794
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: background who joined the campaign early. What attracted you to it?

795
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: Why did you decide to do that? Because I thought

796
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: he was speaking to Americans when I was listening to him,

797
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 1: and I actually did my homework. I read his books,

798
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: you know, I read everything that he'd written and seeing

799
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: what he said, and I said, this is a guy

800
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: who kind of speaks to the American people. He really is.

801
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,479
Speaker 1: He's a guy that came out of Queen's. Everybody thinks

802
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: he came as a New York billionaire. He's a different

803
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: type of person. And then I talked to him. I said,

804
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: you know, this is the kind of guy that you

805
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: could just sit down and have a beer with if

806
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 1: you want it. He doesn't drink at all, He doesn't

807
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: drink or smoke. But I said, this was a guy

808
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: that he really spoke instinctively. He knew what the American

809
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: people were out, and I think he got that, dude,

810
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 1: because all of his years as a builder, he would

811
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: go talk to the waiters, he would go talk to

812
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: the plumbers, he'd go talk to the people building stuff,

813
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: and he got a feel for the common people. I

814
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: really picked up on that. It was almost like being

815
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: in the military when good commanders would always talk to

816
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: the prior. And he had a connection with the American people.

817
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: I mean, where else does somebody draw forty five thousand

818
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: and thirty thousand or fifteen thousand people at a rally,

819
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: naming another politician that does that consistent, He's the only

820
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: guy that has done that consistently, done on the first

821
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: campaign as president, and then the concurrent which see now.

822
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: I used to always tell people that it's a big

823
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: mistake to think of Trump as a billionaire in the

824
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: finance sense. Trump was in the construction and management system

825
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: and he happened to make money at it. But his

826
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: natural instinct is to talk to people. I've watched him

827
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 1: all over the place. I knew him for many years

828
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: before he ran, and close than I belonged to Trump

829
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: National and you'd see him, you know, he talked to

830
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: the groundskeeper, He talked to the golf pro, he talked

831
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 1: to the guests. He had a constant interest in how

832
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: things are going. And there's a very funny YouTube series

833
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: that was made sometimes, I think in the nineties, where

834
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 1: Trump takes one of his hotels and he does every

835
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: job in the hotel. So you have a video of

836
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: Trump meeting people at the door, dressed like the guy

837
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: who's supposed to be at the door, and that Trump

838
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: is with the maids vacuuming a room, and it ends

839
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: with him walking a dog and coming back and giving

840
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: the dog to the lady and looking at her and saying,

841
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: do I get a tip? And it's it's just kind

842
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: of perfect. I want to thank you. You have served

843
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 1: this country in so many different ways. You represent I

844
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: think the best of the army, and that you understood

845
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: your job was to be a true professional, and that

846
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: you served at the command of the civilians and it's

847
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: the military we got to get back to. And then

848
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: I watched you up close for four years of really

849
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: serving the country in the White House, and I think

850
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: that your willingness to put aside your ego and to

851
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: simply be an implementer helping is a remarkable thing. And

852
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: I think that both the President and the Vice President

853
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: were very lucky and the country was very lucky to

854
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: have you there. And I want to thank you for

855
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: joining me your account of your years serving the Trump

856
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 1: White House. I think it's going to prove historically valuable

857
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: because you don't approach it with any kind of particular bias.

858
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: You're reporting to the country. And I want our listeners

859
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: to know that we're gonna have a link to pre

860
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: order your book, War by Other Means A General in

861
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: the Trump White House on our show page at Newtsworld

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Speaker 1: dot com, and it comes out on Tuesday, October nineteenth.

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Speaker 1: And Keith, I really want to thank you personally for

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Speaker 1: taking the time to help educate me and hopefully those

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Speaker 1: who listen. Thanks mister speaker, thanks for having me. Thank

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Speaker 1: you to my guests, General Keith Kellogg. He can get

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Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, War by Other

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Speaker 1: Means A General in the Trump White House on our

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Speaker 1: show page at Newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by

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00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 1: Gingwich three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers,

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00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson.

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Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty. If

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00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple

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Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give

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Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about.

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Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for

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Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot

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Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm new Gingwich. This is Newtsworld.