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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andy and Samantha and welcome to staff.

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Speaker 1: I never told you, but actually I heart radio. Samantha.

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Speaker 1: What's the biggest vehicle you have ever driven? I've driven

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Speaker 1: a fifteen passenger van. Who what was that? Like? Really

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Speaker 1: annoying because I'm short, so that means I have to

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Speaker 1: be right under the wheel to get to the brakes

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Speaker 1: and the little nerve wracking because I was also responsible

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Speaker 1: for kids, so they were in the band. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. It was okay, I'm okay riding of it.

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Speaker 1: It was not too bad. Okay. Follow up question, what's

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Speaker 1: the longest car trip you've ever taken? I actually so,

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing this is it from Atlanta from Athens, Georgia

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Speaker 1: all the way through Texas to Oklahoma. Yeah. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: pretty long when Texas is huge Texas. Yes, And it

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Speaker 1: was probably the longest, right I had and the most

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Speaker 1: racist interaction with the cop that I've had. Second, No,

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Speaker 1: it was top two. No, Actually it was the most racist.

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Speaker 1: I had other racist interactions, but this was the most racist.

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Speaker 1: That's unfortunately does not surprise me. Thing against Texas because

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Speaker 1: they can't have it anywhere right. They do not like

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Speaker 1: brown people. Driving through small towns at eleven pm. It

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Speaker 1: seeks later maybe two am. Mm hmm. Yeah, So I

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Speaker 1: for someone who hates driving, hilariously, I learned. I learned

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Speaker 1: to do most of my driving in a suburban and

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Speaker 1: not like you know, like the nine seater suburban. It

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Speaker 1: was pretty surprisingly smooth though. Uh but I did drive

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Speaker 1: a U haul on and I hated it. I hated it.

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Speaker 1: It was a traffic during Atlanta and I am so

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Speaker 1: cheap this rush hour. I only rented it for one hour,

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Speaker 1: so I had like a time limit in rush hour

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Speaker 1: and I was picking up this couch and it was awful. Oh,

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Speaker 1: just thinking, it's a lot, very stressful. For the longest

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Speaker 1: trip I've taken, I did a friend and I she

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Speaker 1: did all the driving, but we went all the way

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Speaker 1: over to California, up to Colorado, over to Chicago, back

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Speaker 1: down through to get to Georgia. It was actually a

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Speaker 1: really nice trip. I thought by the end we might

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Speaker 1: like hate each other for a little bit or something.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of time to spend with somebody and

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Speaker 1: close scanters, but it was fine, right. Yeah, I had

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Speaker 1: a friend with me, and I'm really glad it did.

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Speaker 1: We when we went through Oklahoma, but when we left,

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Speaker 1: we came through Arkansas back to Georgia. Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: recommend Arkansas. Sorry if you all are from Arkansas. There's

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Speaker 1: some like as a brown person when driving anywhere, I

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Speaker 1: am very overly cautious. And there are two states that

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Speaker 1: made me really nervous. A lot of states obviously, because

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Speaker 1: like I said, I had really racist encounter in Texas. Um,

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Speaker 1: I was speeding. Don't get me wrong, I did wrong.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't even arguing that. But the way he's I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it was a true sundown city and

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what those were at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: but he screamed at me about coming through, to never

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Speaker 1: come through again, and to remember my He didn't say

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Speaker 1: remember my place, but he just asked me why I

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Speaker 1: was there and why would why would I be there?

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking, what I don't understand, like and

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Speaker 1: I would explained, I'm driving to see friends in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: and his response was so out of left field. Because

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Speaker 1: I wasn't arguing with him, I accepted it. It wasn't awful,

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Speaker 1: like it wasn't a huge speeding taking, but I was

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Speaker 1: definitely speeding a little bit and I was just kind

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Speaker 1: of like, this reaction is over the top, and I

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Speaker 1: am not confrontational, especially when I don't even know it's coming.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those that I am one of those

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Speaker 1: that just freezes it stirs, like I don't know what's happening.

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Speaker 1: So when that happened, and I was like, Okay, and

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Speaker 1: Texas not as bad as that was. It's not on

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Speaker 1: my list of the two of the states that I'm

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Speaker 1: more scared of. The arkansass on one of them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you have a bad experience a kid, and it

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Speaker 1: can really stick with you. Well, the reason I wanted

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Speaker 1: to bring all of this up is because, as you

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Speaker 1: all know, I'm sure lately there's been all of these

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Speaker 1: news stories about the supply chain and shortages and why

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Speaker 1: it's so bad. And we're gonna return to talk about

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Speaker 1: that in a future episode and kind of expand out

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Speaker 1: how that impacts women. But one of the reasons is, uh,

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Speaker 1: here in the US, not enough truckers or truck drivers.

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Speaker 1: There's a shortage in that. And I just remember when

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Speaker 1: this episode came out, the numbers the gap between male

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Speaker 1: and female drivers was so significant. Um, and it's not

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Speaker 1: an easy job and I'm not easy on your body,

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Speaker 1: like it takes a lot of time. I have a

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Speaker 1: friend who works in trekking, so it's just I feel

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Speaker 1: like there's a lot of things we have to talk about.

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Speaker 1: What we're talking about these shortages of you know, there's

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Speaker 1: there's more than one thing happening here. But we did

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Speaker 1: want to bring back this episode about women who who

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Speaker 1: are trekkers and the trekking industry as this conversation is

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Speaker 1: going on, So please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never

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Speaker 1: told you from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline and

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Speaker 1: today's episode on women in rucking has been requested by

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Speaker 1: a number of listeners. It has, Yeah, we we I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you guys are in cahoots. We've gotten

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Speaker 1: a couple of emails from guys Trucker Guys Trucker, requesting

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Speaker 1: that we tackle this issue of basically like where where

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Speaker 1: are the ladies in trucking? So, for instance, we wanted

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Speaker 1: to share a letter from listener Greg who wrote to us,

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Speaker 1: I'm an old, broke down, worn out trucker. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to use my time behind the wheel more productively and

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Speaker 1: I found your podcast. I've really appreciated your feminist viewpoint,

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Speaker 1: as I don't really get the chance to see things

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Speaker 1: from a female perspective very often. I work in an

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Speaker 1: industry that, as I'm sure you are aware, is dominated

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Speaker 1: by men. And as I was listening to your podcast

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Speaker 1: on women and visual effects, it made me curious to

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Speaker 1: hear your take on women and trucking. The trucking industry

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Speaker 1: is essential to the country, yet women are severely underrepresented

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Speaker 1: among the ranks of professional driver. Of course, women are

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Speaker 1: certainly capable of performing the job, but it's extremely difficult

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Speaker 1: for women to enter the industry, and the ones that

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Speaker 1: do often face sexism that could be compared to the

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Speaker 1: construction industry. So before we go on Greg and all

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Speaker 1: of the other truckers listening to this podcast, this episode

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Speaker 1: is for you and Greg, by the way, you're spot

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Speaker 1: on across the board. And also, I'm just so excited

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Speaker 1: to imagine Greg finding stuff I've never told you and

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Speaker 1: like listening to us like wax feminism as he's driving

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Speaker 1: down the road. This was really fun to think about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we we love the idea and we love the suggestion.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think though that we quite expected the

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Speaker 1: picture to be so grim when we first dive into research. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's and it's not grim in the way that

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Speaker 1: you might expect. But we'll get into that. Hang fasten

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Speaker 1: your seatbelt, folks, because we will get into that um

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Speaker 1: later on. But first we want to just give you

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Speaker 1: an overview of the trucking industry because I mean, again, Greg,

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Speaker 1: you're so right across the board. I mean, it's true

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Speaker 1: that the trucking industry is so essential to the country,

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Speaker 1: but there are very few women, not surprisingly so there

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Speaker 1: are around two or thousand female truckers on the road

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Speaker 1: and that sounds like a lot, sure, but that makes

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Speaker 1: up just six percent of all truck drivers, whereas there

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Speaker 1: are three million fellas behind the wheel. Yeah, and that

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Speaker 1: six percent figure for women is actually up slightly from

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Speaker 1: four point six percent according to the group Women in Trucking,

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Speaker 1: and it's lower in the UK, Hey, UK listeners, women

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Speaker 1: make up just one point two percent of truckers over

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Speaker 1: in the UK, and we didn't find that much solid

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Speaker 1: demographic information on women and trucking. But over at the

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Speaker 1: site Real Women Trucking, which is run by trucker named Desiree,

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Speaker 1: she says that most women who get into it are

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Speaker 1: between thirty nine and fifty nine years old, which I

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Speaker 1: thought was really interesting. But it's not necessarily a dream job.

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Speaker 1: Um Erica are Vizoo, who's an admission supervisor at the

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Speaker 1: dudes In School of Trucking, told NPR quote, a lot

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Speaker 1: of them are single women trying to support their families,

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Speaker 1: are just trying to help their partner because of the

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Speaker 1: economy and everything, just to survive. Yeah, I mean, we

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Speaker 1: read a lot too, and this is in comments, and

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Speaker 1: I know, you know the refrain like never read the comments,

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Speaker 1: but the comments on articles about women and trucking are

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Speaker 1: actually pretty enlightening for the most part um because and

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Speaker 1: I say that because I'm so far removed from this

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Speaker 1: industry and so it's fascinating to get first person accounts.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of the comments talk about how women

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Speaker 1: who not all women, but a lot of the women

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Speaker 1: who come to trucking is specially those who come later

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Speaker 1: in life, are coming out of really bad circumstances. Because

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Speaker 1: it's a relatively well paying job for a lot of

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Speaker 1: women who have either maybe just gotten out of prison,

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Speaker 1: maybe women who have experienced homelessness, and not that that's

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Speaker 1: not true for some of the guys too, But trucking

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Speaker 1: presents sort of a unique and positive opportunity for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. Yeah, I mean it's a lifeline, especially

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Speaker 1: for g I s who have just come home. Um.

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Speaker 1: And again, it is a crucial industry to all of

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Speaker 1: our day to day lives that we probably do not

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Speaker 1: think about very often because imagine, truckers move nine point

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Speaker 1: two billion tons of freight or se of all US

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Speaker 1: freight every year, and there still aren't enough truck drivers.

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Speaker 1: The American Trucking Association estimates that we're about thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: drivers short already, and by think it's that number will

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Speaker 1: probably be up to two hundred thousand if recruitment doesn't

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Speaker 1: pick up. Yeah. And so, as we've seen in many

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Speaker 1: an industry over our national history, people turned to women

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Speaker 1: to fill these traditionally male dominated roles, and anecdotally it's working. Um.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people in the industry who

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Speaker 1: say that more women are getting their trucking licenses and

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Speaker 1: that the work environment is female friendlier than ever before.

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Speaker 1: Although as we will continue to discuss, everything's relative, that's

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Speaker 1: not saying all that much. Yeah. Ell Envoy who heads up.

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Speaker 1: The Women in Trucking Association that we've cited said that

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Speaker 1: if we could double the percentage of women working in

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Speaker 1: the trucking industry, we could solve the immediate qualified driver shortage,

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Speaker 1: which saying quite a lot. Yeah, I mean, but keep

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Speaker 1: in mind, listeners, as we're talking about this inciting sources

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Speaker 1: that there is um a little bit of conflict between

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Speaker 1: women and trucking and Real Women Trucking because Real Women

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Speaker 1: Trucking was started to, you know, give firsthand insight into

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Speaker 1: what it's like being a woman in the trucking industry,

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Speaker 1: and the woman who started it often talks about how

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Speaker 1: women in trucking, which is more organized, Um, it's a

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Speaker 1: bigger organization, it's more geared toward recruitment, right, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it has more industry connections. And so Real Women Trucking

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Speaker 1: often claims that Women in Trucking is a little bit

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Speaker 1: misleading and glosses over some of the details about, um,

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Speaker 1: what life is like on the road. Um, but women

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Speaker 1: are also a safer bet for trucking companies. Um. Derek Leathers,

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Speaker 1: who's the CEO of Werner Enterprises, told Bloomberg that women

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Speaker 1: drivers performed better than men across the board. They tend

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Speaker 1: to have fewer accidents, they have better inspections and fewer

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Speaker 1: compliance issues. Yeah, and VOI, who we decided, also told

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Speaker 1: the BBC that women are so much better with the

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Speaker 1: customers and the paperwork in the equipment with what with

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Speaker 1: our tiny hands. Well, there's the equipment in there too.

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Speaker 1: I know she had just stopped at paperwork, I would

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Speaker 1: have been like, Ellen, Yeah, But why is there this

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Speaker 1: scarcity of women in trucking. Well, I mean if from

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Speaker 1: the get go it's major job requirements like life on

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Speaker 1: the open road, hauling freight, even just driving are all

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Speaker 1: masculine gendered activities, though of course some women have gotten

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Speaker 1: behind the wheel anyway. Yeah, and this is the part

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Speaker 1: of the podcast where we have to talk about trailblazers. Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's do it, and and almost literally trailblazers. They were

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Speaker 1: the first people on these trails, sometimes blazing them, blazing

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Speaker 1: blazing them. So before there was truck driving, you had

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Speaker 1: to have wagon driving. And so during the Western expansion

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Speaker 1: in this country, wives would typically take the reins so

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Speaker 1: that their husbands could sit on the back or in

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Speaker 1: the passenger seat with a done. This is where we

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Speaker 1: get the term writing shotgun. You're welcome. I know, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that before we was searching for this episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I never I yelled shotgun a lot in high school.

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Speaker 1: I never do, still do. Yeah. I never understood where

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Speaker 1: it came from, never even really thought about it. And

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Speaker 1: it's because of this, because women were holding the reins

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Speaker 1: while husband carried a shotgun literally writing shotgun. Um. And

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Speaker 1: at this point we have to talk about Mary Fields,

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Speaker 1: who was a freed slave who is better known by

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Speaker 1: her nickname Stagecoach Mary. She drove six horses and a

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Speaker 1: mule as a U. S. Postal Services second female hire

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Speaker 1: and the first African American postal worker in the US.

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Speaker 1: And that happened in when PS. She was sixty. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she worked through her seventies in this job and was frequent.

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Speaker 1: She even worked. She was like worked as as protection

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Speaker 1: for nuns. Like. She's a fascinating, fascinating figure. Um. But

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Speaker 1: you can consider her an early truck driver uh. During

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Speaker 1: World War One though big old leap uh. In nineteen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Luella Bates became one of the first female commercial truck

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Speaker 1: drivers and certainly it's most well known. So if you

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Speaker 1: look at histories of commercial truck driving. Louella Bates is

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Speaker 1: usually cited as the very first lady, and she was

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Speaker 1: hired by Wisconsin's four wheel drive factory along with other women,

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Speaker 1: to fill positions left by men at war. So again

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Speaker 1: a similar theme that we've heard before on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I love I love her story because Bates took

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Speaker 1: a shine to test driving and demonstrating the trucks and

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Speaker 1: four wheel drive was like, hmmm, we could make her

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Speaker 1: the face of our company. So they sent her on

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Speaker 1: this cross country marketing tour, and of course the press

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Speaker 1: described her as quote a pretty and petite woman pilot. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because as you know, the more things change, the more

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Speaker 1: they stay the same. And you apparently cannot have an

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Speaker 1: article about a woman in a male dominated job that

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Speaker 1: doesn't discuss her appearance. And like there's always this effort

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Speaker 1: on the part of writers, it seems to assure readers

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Speaker 1: that someone is still feminine, like, don't worry, she's still pretty.

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Speaker 1: And we see that in coverage through today, which is

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Speaker 1: a little bit mind boggling up, Like relax, okay, Like

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Speaker 1: it's fine, I don't care what she looks like. I

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Speaker 1: don't care if she paints her nails. It's cool. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't care, but I mean, and it's something you

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Speaker 1: hear echoed though in um, the actual industry, there was

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Speaker 1: an article we read there was interviewing women truckers in

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Speaker 1: the UK, and one woman was saying that she always

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Speaker 1: gets comments from other guys being like, oh, I can't

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Speaker 1: believe you're straight. Like there's all of these preconceived notions

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Speaker 1: about what a trucker is supposed to look like a

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Speaker 1: but then what a lady trucker is supposed to be.

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Speaker 1: And so I just I want to tell everybody, like relax.

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Speaker 1: I want to borrow um, Holly from stuff you missed

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Speaker 1: in history colasts like be cool, wand like everybody be cool.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what a human looks like if they

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Speaker 1: are doing the job that they want to do. Like,

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Speaker 1: just relax, everybody, Caroline says, relax, you need to make

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Speaker 1: those shirts. Yeah, exactly that. Um. But if we hop

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Speaker 1: back to the nineteen forties, Rusty Dow became the first

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Speaker 1: woman to drive the Alaska Highway and she was one

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Speaker 1: tough gal. Dal had worked as a truck driver in

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Speaker 1: California and then ended up operating her own trucking and

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Speaker 1: transfer service, and apparently she's a big deal. She has

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Speaker 1: like her own page on like Alaska's history website. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean she drove a ten wheel student baker with

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Speaker 1: bald tires down what is a only a quote unquote highway,

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Speaker 1: like whatever highway you're on going to work. It wasn't that,

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Speaker 1: like it was the wilderness. And she talked about how

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Speaker 1: she overheard some dude truckers saying, oh, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: if they ever make this trail easy enough for women

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Speaker 1: to travel, like, we know, it'll be time to to

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Speaker 1: find another job to move on. Oh so patronizing. Um.

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Speaker 1: But today though, the industry is on the hunt for

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Speaker 1: more women like Luella Bates. And here's the big industry

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Speaker 1: pitch to women. The big thing that they often advertise

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Speaker 1: is how women you can make money, money, money, So

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Speaker 1: in pretty much any trucking story you read, it will

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Speaker 1: mention how thirty eight thousand is the media and pay.

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Speaker 1: And there are long haul truckers who can pull in

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Speaker 1: up to seventy five dollars a year, and many spokespeople

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Speaker 1: insist that truckers can start ranking in that cash and

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Speaker 1: only a few weeks, which sounds great, sounds amazing, yeah,

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Speaker 1: why are we podcasting? I have no idea. Can we

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Speaker 1: podcasts from a truck? I think so. And of course

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Speaker 1: they also tell the fact that you are paid by

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Speaker 1: the mile or by the load, so that there there's

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Speaker 1: no gender specific wage gap. If there's a gap, it's

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Speaker 1: because you're not driving as much as others, which of

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Speaker 1: course will come into play when we talk about retaliation

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Speaker 1: by companies. But anyway, I don't want to give too

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Speaker 1: many spoilers away. Of course, a lot of companies also

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Speaker 1: tell that the job is physically easier than ever before.

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Speaker 1: You've got uh, technological innovations, power steering, automatic transmissions. You've

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Speaker 1: got people trying to make sleeper cabs more comfortable and

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Speaker 1: ergonomic so it can accommodate all types of body sizes. UM.

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Speaker 1: And that includes making driver's seats even women friendly to

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Speaker 1: accommodate smaller frames. And one aspect of a job that's

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Speaker 1: often advertised specifically to women is how you can haul

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Speaker 1: what's called no touch cargo that doesn't demand any heavy

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Speaker 1: lifting whatsoever. And as far as I'm concerned, these are

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Speaker 1: improvements for everyone. Oh absolutely yeah, UM, and trucking companies

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Speaker 1: are making intentional changes to attract women, not just the

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Speaker 1: technological and ovations for the trucks themselves. They're trying to

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Speaker 1: clean up truck stops. They're actually putting showers in the

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Speaker 1: women's bathrooms at truck stops because for a long time

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Speaker 1: there were only showers in the men's bathrooms. So I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that was very welcoming. Uh, offering guaranteed hometime because

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Speaker 1: you were on the road a lot, not surprisingly, and

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Speaker 1: also just directly marketing to potential women with messages of

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Speaker 1: freedom seeing the country. Your truck is your home and

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Speaker 1: your office. You can be the mistress of your own

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Speaker 1: mobile domain. All of this sounds fantastic. It does what

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Speaker 1: could possibly go wrong. So the thing is regardless of

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Speaker 1: who you are, man, woman, young, old, driving a truck,

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Speaker 1: especially long haul, is tiring, it's dangerous. It's often cited

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Speaker 1: as one of the top ten miss dangerous occupations in

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Speaker 1: the world. And it's lonely and underpaid. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think fourteen hour days and the fact that trucking

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Speaker 1: accidents account for twelve percent of all work related deaths

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Speaker 1: in the US, and there's been a huge issue of

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Speaker 1: that underpaid aspect. And I mean, you are working on

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Speaker 1: a strict schedule, so you might be driving for these

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Speaker 1: long stretches at a time. I mean, there are regulations

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Speaker 1: as to I think fourteen hours is the max. Truckers listening,

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Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. Um, But there's also no unionization,

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Speaker 1: and so these truckers have little power to fight for

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Speaker 1: better compensation because they're doing such important work that's like

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Speaker 1: the you know, the foundation of a lot of our economy. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And Desiree would, who excited earlier as the founder of

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Speaker 1: Real Women Trucking, does work to highlight these issues because

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Speaker 1: you know, if you definitely want to be a trucker

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Speaker 1: or you're just thinking about it, she believes, and I

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Speaker 1: agree with that, you should know the risks and rewards.

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Speaker 1: And she points out with that whole underpaid thing, that

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Speaker 1: there is a lot of unpaid labor that goes into

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Speaker 1: being a trucker. Since you're only paid per mile or

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Speaker 1: per load when you're driving, so you've got time spent

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Speaker 1: standing on the dock to count freight. You might end

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Speaker 1: up being detained at a shipper receiver for hours pastor appointment,

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Speaker 1: and you've got to spend time climbing up inside that

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Speaker 1: trailer to clean them out. Before you load them up.

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Speaker 1: And there's also the issue with local jobs, which are

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Speaker 1: the ones that are often guaranteed involving a lot more

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Speaker 1: unpaid work, according to desire Wood, at least than long haul.

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Speaker 1: And then beyond that, there's the issue of no industry

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Speaker 1: wide training standards, which means some trucking schools will exploit

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Speaker 1: students with excessive team driving and try to lock them

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Speaker 1: into least purchase deals for a truck, landing them in debt.

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Speaker 1: So you have to pay your tuition to even get

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Speaker 1: into this school so you can get a trucking license,

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Speaker 1: and some of these schools will try to get you

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Speaker 1: to you know, lock you into this lease. And if

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Speaker 1: you even make it out of the school, as we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about in just a second, um, so before you're

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Speaker 1: even making any money, you're spending a lot of money sometimes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is just would is putting this information

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Speaker 1: out there just as a buyer beware, like study your

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Speaker 1: school before you sign up for it. And she also

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Speaker 1: points out that you're generally not going to be making

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Speaker 1: that forty k right out of the gate. You're probably

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Speaker 1: more likely to earn about eighteen to thirty seven thousand

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Speaker 1: when you first become a trucker, and many women behind

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Speaker 1: the wheel often confront gender stereotypes and ridicule and even

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Speaker 1: harassment as a part of the job as well. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've already talked about how it seems like

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Speaker 1: every article has to mention the appearance and like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, you can't be a driver because you're wearing

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Speaker 1: a scart. But there's also all of these gender assumptions

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Speaker 1: that krist and I have talked about in previous STEM

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Speaker 1: episodes about like oh, well, you're a woman, so you

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Speaker 1: probably didn't play with legos enough, so you have no

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Speaker 1: spatial reasoning skills, you can't drive, and you're probably not

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Speaker 1: strong enough to do any of this work. And of

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Speaker 1: course that's all a bunch of WHOEI Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it was to the point that um in an article

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Speaker 1: over the BBC Shamim Aktar, whose Pakistan's only female professional

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Speaker 1: truck driver, she said that she basically has to divorce

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Speaker 1: herself from her womanhood in order to do this job. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My eyes got so wide when I read that, because

401
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Speaker 1: she was essentially saying, Um, you know, I pray that

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Speaker 1: women who want to stay home can afford to stay home,

403
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Speaker 1: because I know that when I'm on the road, I

404
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Speaker 1: have to kill the woman inside of me, and you're like,

405
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Speaker 1: oh my god. Like that goes against kind of everything

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Speaker 1: that we preach in terms of like be there you are,

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Speaker 1: like be a proud lady if that's who you are,

408
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Speaker 1: even if you're a trucker, or because you're a trucker,

409
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Speaker 1: like you know, be authentically yourself. And um Shamim Aktar

410
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Speaker 1: definitely has a different coping mechanism for facing the type

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Speaker 1: of harassment that comes along with being a lady trucker

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Speaker 1: in Pakistan. Yeah, I mean, and of course a lot

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Speaker 1: of women truckers just I mean, the stereotyping, they just

414
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Speaker 1: kind of have to let it roll off their backs,

415
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Speaker 1: but understandably it can wear you down a bit, and

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Speaker 1: men and women are like. Turnover in the industry is huge.

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Speaker 1: The American Trucking Association in celebrated a record low of

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Speaker 1: eight percent annual turnout. Yeah, mind blown. And the more

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Speaker 1: frequent statu you see is a hundred percent, which, in

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Speaker 1: case you're not sure what a hundred percent turnover means,

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Speaker 1: it means that everyone is leaving. Responding to this discussion,

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Speaker 1: one NPR commenter said, well, consider the pay and the

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Speaker 1: fact that you're on the road, away home and family

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Speaker 1: for weeks and months at a time, living out of

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Speaker 1: the truck, eating on the road, not working a set schedule,

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Speaker 1: but available for work at any hour of the day

427
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 1: or night, in any weather. And should I add sleep deprived.

428
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: And he goes on to say, it's not just a job,

429
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: but a lifestyle, and it's not suitable for most people.

430
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: Like and he's not talking gender, He's like talking whoever

431
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: you are, it might not be your kind of work. Yeah.

432
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: I forget the exact source, but I was reading an

433
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: article about both the psychological and physical toll than truck driving,

434
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: especially long haul truck driving takes, because I mean, think

435
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: about if you have a desk job, how often we're told,

436
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: you know, you make sure you stand up. Sitting is killing,

437
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: and sitting is killing you stand up every hour. If

438
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: you're a trucker, you can't do that. You are sitting

439
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: in that fixed position for hours on end, and sometimes

440
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: by yourself. Although I am hartened to know that we

441
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: are offering at least some podcast company two truckers out there. Yeah,

442
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: and there are people who drive in teams. There are

443
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: lots of husband and wife teams out there, which I

444
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: didn't realize, but so that could at least let you

445
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: switch off and keep driving. But more often than not,

446
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: you're still driving that twelve hour shift, let's say so,

447
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: and your spouse or your partner, whoever's in the cab

448
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: with you, will then take the next twelve hour shifts,

449
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: so it's not like you're switching off every hour necessarily. Yeah.

450
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: But then on top of that, too, let's say you

451
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: get hungry, it's time for dinner. Uh, if you've noticed,

452
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: the immediate food options that are closest to the road

453
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 1: are usually not all that good for you. I mean,

454
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: you have gas station food you have. I mean even

455
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: if you get like a nice roast chicken and some

456
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: potatoes and carrots, Like, how are you going to eat? Yeah?

457
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: When you know when you've got to be somewhere in

458
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: a certain set amount of time. Yeah. So Um. But

459
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: on top of all of these issues, which I personally

460
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: think the industry needs to take a closer look at

461
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: or at least compensate their employees better. For um, we

462
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: next seed to talk about the biggest road hazard for

463
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: women behind the wheel, and we're going to dive into that.

464
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 1: When we get right back from a quick break now

465
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: going into this research, Caroline, I mean I was prepared

466
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: to read about safety and sexual assault issues for women

467
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: on the road, assuming that you're alone, if you have

468
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: to stay at a truck stop, stranger danger, that it's

469
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: it's all happening there after you've gotten the job, once

470
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: you're in the industry. But it turns out that the

471
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: major sexual harassment problem within the trucking industry takes place

472
00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: most often during training. Yeah. Yeah, uh, so horrified to

473
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: read about this and so glad to be reading about

474
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: it because it seems like nobody wants to talk about it,

475
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: especially I mean especially recruiters. I mean, as you can imagine,

476
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: why would they want to highlight anything like that. Um,

477
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: But we we tend to focus so much on sexism

478
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: in the workplace, on issues of promotion and gender wage gaps,

479
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: and we of course sexual harassment and sexual assault. But this,

480
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: it's the issue is so concentrated. It seems like in

481
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: the trucking industry, um, and sexual harassment and we're not

482
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: just talking like a slap on the butt or like hey,

483
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: hot thing, you want to have sex. It's like violent,

484
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: there's violent sexual harassment going on and it's one of

485
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: the major complaints that desiree would who started real women

486
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: trucking hears from people. Yeah, because what typically happens steering

487
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: driver training. When you're training to get your sucking license,

488
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: you have to drive in teams for a set amount

489
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: of time, so you'll be driving, you know, with someone

490
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: who's your trainer. But a lot of times those trainers

491
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: are not in official positions of authority. So this often

492
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: leads to sketchy situations that deter some women from completing

493
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: training school, which landsome in debt um. And we've got

494
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: to talk about these cases that have now, I mean

495
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: that are already like in court. So in three lead

496
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: plaintiffs filed a federal class action suit against c r

497
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: ST Expedited Trucking, alleging sexual harassment, assault, and rape during training.

498
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: And according to the lawsuit, this issue is so well

499
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: known and brushed aside in the industry that cr ST

500
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: is jokingly referred to as constantly raping student truckers. Yeah,

501
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: I mean, we read its stories about women having to

502
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: carry knives, tasers, even screw drivers as weapons to fend

503
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: off abusive trainers. Women talking about waking up in their

504
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: bunk in the middle of the nine and having a

505
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: naked man on top of them, all sorts of insane scenarios,

506
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: And like Kristen was just saying, you're sort of locked

507
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: in because if you leave the CRST training, for instance, early,

508
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: because of sexual assault or sexual harassment, you wind up

509
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: with tuition debt because so they'll front you some tuition money,

510
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: but they will only forgive that debt if you pass

511
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: your training and then sign an eight month commitment after graduating.

512
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: And so, you know, we read about all of these

513
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: women who were saying that, you know, I held on

514
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: by the skin of my teeth dealing with all of

515
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: this horrifying stuff and still couldn't make it. I still

516
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: had to be dropped off at a at a terminal

517
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: or a truck stop and ask for help. Yeah, because this,

518
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: I mean the training environment with the code driving for

519
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: weeks at a time sometimes so the stage for coercion,

520
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: because trainers might threaten not to pass them as a

521
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: way to, you know, try to lure them into unwanted

522
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: sexual activity. And lawyers told Fast Company magazine that when

523
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: women to CRST due to sexual harassment, the company is

524
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: known to counterclaim to recover the cost of training, and

525
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: then there seems to be a particular issue with this

526
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: trucking company. Um. And also I want to give a

527
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: shout out to and really in depth piece over at

528
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: Jezebel um where a lot of this information is coming

529
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: from as well. Yeah, and coming from that Jezebel article,

530
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: there was actually a case in when CRST lost a

531
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: lawsuit they had to pay a driver one point five

532
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: million dollars because she alleged that her trainer, this guy

533
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: named John Wilson, subjected her to constant sexual comments in

534
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: touching and that her reports to the corporate office were ignored.

535
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: And we hear this over and over again, all the

536
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: stuff we read that it doesn't matter what you've experienced

537
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: and who you tell it tends to get laughed off

538
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: and just brushed under the rug. And again, it does

539
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: seem to be an issue with this particular company, and

540
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: how it has gone on for so long boggles my mind.

541
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: Because if we go back to two thousand seven, there

542
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: was a case brought to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

543
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: alleging seventy two women seventy two at CRST complained of

544
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: sexual harassment and two thousand five alone just in one year,

545
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: and that case was eventually dissolved because of they were

546
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: like bureaucratic steps that weren't taken um. But the thing

547
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: about it is, as Jezebel and Fast Company reported, what

548
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: typically happens to the trainers in these situations is not much.

549
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: They may have their pay doct and they're typically shuffled

550
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: around two different students, like training students labeled as just

551
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: having quote personality problem. Yeah, but you, as the person

552
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: being trained, you don't know who has personality problems, and

553
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: you don't know if it's just like, oh, they don't

554
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: brush their teeth so they're kind of smelly, or if

555
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: it's because they tried to rape someone. And then the

556
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: company is saying, Okay, get in the car, get in

557
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: a truck with this person that you're gonna have to

558
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: sleep on the road with these tiny sleeper cabs and

559
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: a truck stops and out in the middle of nowhere.

560
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: Go ahead, just go on the open road for a

561
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: few weeks. Yeah. And a lot of women in these

562
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 1: articles brought up the point that many of the trainers

563
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: that they worked with were recently out of prison and no,

564
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that. In a vacuum. However, just

565
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: like we don't know what these personality problems on these

566
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 1: charts indicate. If a man went to prison for rape

567
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: or sexual assault and then he becomes a trainer and

568
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: he's locked in a cab with this woman for three

569
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: weeks at a time, that's a dangerous situation. It seems

570
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: like pertinent information you would you would want to know

571
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: ye as a student. UM. And one thing that a

572
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: Fast Company and Jezebel pointed out about this is how

573
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: this issue of sexual assault within our sexual harassment within

574
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: the trucking industry is just it's so stunning to the

575
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: to a greater degree than the issue of sexual harassment

576
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: and Silicon Valley. Yet we hear about Silicon Valley and

577
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: issues UM within the tech industry so much more often.

578
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: And I think it was a writer in in Fast

579
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: Company saying that this is a clear issue of class discrimination. Yeah,

580
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: you know exactly, UM. Reflecting on the Fast Company stats,

581
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: the Jezebel writer said, it's hard to miss the class

582
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: element that's likely at work a greater interest in the

583
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: suffering of women in a money flush, very public, buzz

584
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: heavy industry. And although trucking is a core part of

585
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: how the American economy functions. There's a general ignorance about

586
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: how it works, a lack of visibility that's benefited some

587
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: in the trucking industry and hurt many others. And of

588
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: course this isn't to create some kind of hierarchy of

589
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: like which sexual harasment should we care about more, But

590
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: the fact that we aren't more informed about this is troubling.

591
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: And it's even more troubling when you think about proposed

592
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: safety solutions, because a lot of times it's left up

593
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: to the women themselves. Carry weapons, install a camera in

594
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: your truck, don't park in the back of a parking

595
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: lot at a truck stop, or walk between trucks. That

596
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: is one piece of advice. Don't walk between trucks. And

597
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: it's also troubling in the context of these super strong

598
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: recruiting efforts that are going on now. It's like, yeah,

599
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: it's I'm always an advocate for getting more women into

600
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: positions where they can make a study living, support themselves

601
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: and or their families, feel empowered do what they want

602
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: to do. However, I think it's a little shady. We

603
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: and you're recruiting strongly a group of people who are

604
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: at an incredible statistical risk of sexual violence, like we

605
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: should probably be following Desiree Woods lead would of real

606
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: women trucking and trying to inform ourselves and women at

607
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 1: large about these issues, especially when the question of sexual

608
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: harassment comes up. If you're talking to someone with closer

609
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: industry ties, they're usually like, oh, yeah, I mean, we

610
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: definitely need to fix that problem now, now that more

611
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: women are coming into the job, we should absolutely look

612
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: into it. It's like, so it was fine, you know, five, ten,

613
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, Like yeah, and and you know, we

614
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: we read a lot. There were again a lot of

615
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: comments on these articles from from women who've been in

616
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: trucking for a while who've said, you know, I experienced

617
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: nothing but politeness. I was treated with respect. You know.

618
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: The worst I ever had to deal with was surprised

619
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: that a woman was doing this job. And to them,

620
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 1: I say, congratulations, Like that's great. I think it's fabulous

621
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: that you're getting to do this job and make this

622
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: money and not have to deal with this. But that

623
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: positive experience doesn't discount the horrifically negative experience that so

624
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: many women have had. Yeah, I mean, and this is

625
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: one reason why you do see a lot of husband

626
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: wife duo's a because then you get to like hang

627
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: out together, but also for safety's sake, I mean, it

628
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: helps to have a guy that you know and trust

629
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 1: in the truck with you. But I mean it seems

630
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: like if you are a female trucker, you often take

631
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: the good with the bad. Um. This was something reflected

632
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: in a number of comments on a BBC article we read.

633
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: Um Rebecca horsefull Uh said, I was a lorry driver

634
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago, and it was really abnormal for

635
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: women to drive trucks. The porn photos all over the

636
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: walls of Deep Post where I picked up or dropped

637
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: off machine parts and cables were incredible because no women

638
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: ever went there. And of course the men were sexist.

639
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: They were always trying to take overloading my wagon or

640
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: roping it for me because they didn't believe I could manage.

641
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,959
Speaker 1: But it added fun sides too, And it's funny because

642
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: that just reminded me of when we talked about pin

643
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: up girls and men having in any industry, not just

644
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: trucking men having all of these sexy pin up calendars

645
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: all over the place, and how in so many other

646
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: episodes where we've discussed men being so reluctant to welcome

647
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: women into a previously or currently male dominated field because

648
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: it's like, oh wait, you expect me to act like

649
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: a person Like that's crazy. I have to act like

650
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: a normal human being. But I do want to end

651
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: the episode on a positive note because there were women

652
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: reread about, including Desiree Would, who enjoy trucking. It's just

653
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: clear that it's it regardless of who you are. It

654
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: is a particular, very particular kind of lifestyle that not

655
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people are cut out for. Um. But

656
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 1: Lindsay Williams commented over the BBC. I've had a Class

657
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: one license for about twenty four years. My childhood was

658
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: spent on the family farm, and I was driving a

659
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: tractor at eleven years old, so I guess that's how

660
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: I started. I drive a big rig and it's given

661
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: me confidence and self esteem, and it gives me a

662
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: chance to see the country and appreciate nature. I've earned

663
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: the respect of my driving colleagues, and it's a wonderful

664
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 1: feeling to know that I've earned their respect. But the

665
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: bad pits are I hate being in big queues of

666
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: stationary traffic. Yeah, I hear you, like I driving in Atlanta.

667
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: I lose my mind every time I'm in traffic. But

668
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 1: also I watch how the idiots and jerks in Atlanta

669
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: drive around truckers and I can't imagine it, Like, Hello,

670
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: they are driving a massive vehicle that weighs a lot.

671
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: You can't just cut them off in Atlanta traffic on

672
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: I seventy five in the middle of rush hour and

673
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: expect your car to be in one piece when you

674
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: do it, Like I feel like I just want a

675
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: bumper sticker. That's like I love truckers because I will

676
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: always let them in the lane. If they have a

677
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: blinker on, I will let them over. Because so many

678
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: people in Atlanta are so awful to truckers. H And

679
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: yet again, Caroline, we need we need to make those,

680
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: Caroline says, relaxed t shirts so you can you know,

681
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: throw it, throwing those passenger seats as you're driving by them. Yes,

682
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: I know, everybody, just relax. It doesn't matter what you

683
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: look like in general. Period set the takeaway. UM. So

684
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: clearly this is an industry looking for a lot of women. UM.

685
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: But it needs to make some major reforms in order

686
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: for that to be sustainable. And and I don't I

687
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: appreciate people like our listener Greg, who wrote in wanting

688
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: us to talk about this issue, because people like Ellen

689
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: Boy have pointed out that so many people still just

690
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: like flat out don't want women in the industry and

691
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: don't think they should be there, which I think is

692
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: so it's so ridiculous when there are so many open

693
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: jobs in trucking. Women who get into the industry are

694
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,439
Speaker 1: literally taking nothing away from men. They're literally taking nothing

695
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: away because the job is open. There are tens of

696
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: thousands of unfilled trucking jobs. So I I would frankly

697
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: love to hear from our trucker audience. I need, I

698
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 1: need to know some more firsthand stuff well, and also

699
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: I want to hear from men and women too, because,

700
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 1: as listener Greg demonstrates, I mean, there are obviously men

701
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: in this industry who are you know, perfectly great people

702
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: who realize that there's a problem and are invested in

703
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: in helping solve it too. So I'm just so curious

704
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: to know because there are so many issues. There's the

705
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: pay issue, there's health, there's you know, um employee organization, um.

706
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: So I just I'm just curious to hear from from

707
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: folks on the road, what it's really like, what it's

708
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: been your experience. Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot

709
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us

710
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or message us on Facebook, and

711
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you

712
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. I

713
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: have a letter here from Sarah in response to our

714
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: miscarriage episode. Sarah writes, I've wanted to write you for

715
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: a while, but when I saw your new podcast pop up,

716
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: I figured now was the time. Last year and my

717
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: baby was still born at thirty eight weeks. Doctors told

718
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: us pretty early on that there were some problems with

719
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: my placenta. I learned that when they tell you you

720
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: have a thick placenta, it's not meant as a compliment. Oops.

721
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: But we ran every test possible and everything always looked fine.

722
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: So we planned for the best and never assumed that

723
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: the worst would have been Well. It was and still

724
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 1: can be a deeply sad time. Something that helped me

725
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: to avoid a lot of the guilt and shame you

726
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: described was asking my doctor a lot of questions about

727
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 1: why it happened. I found that understanding at least some

728
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: of the science steered me away from the magical thinking

729
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: that Doctor Zucker described and gave me a concrete reason

730
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: for why it happened. It also helps offen the blow

731
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: when people inevitably told me everything happens for a reason,

732
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: I could respond in my head with yes, and the

733
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: reason is that sometimes cells don't divide normally, creating a

734
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: challenging environment in which to sustain a healthy baby. It

735
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: didn't make the loss of my daughter any less devastating,

736
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: but it at least gave me an answer to the

737
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: big question of why something so horrible could happen. Science happens.

738
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: What really resonated with me is when Dr Zucker talked

739
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: about people not knowing how to approach you after such

740
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: a loss. After the initial I'm sorry for your loss,

741
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: people would tell me that they didn't want to bring

742
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 1: it up because they didn't want to remind me, which

743
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: basically meant that it almost never came up again. I

744
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: knew in my head that I wasn't forgotten and she

745
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: wasn't forgotten, but it sure felt like that and made

746
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: me feel very alone. One thing that I would like

747
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: to tell people who want to be there for someone

748
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: going through a loss is this. I'm thinking about it

749
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: whether you bring it up or not, so you might

750
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: as well show your support and bring it up. I'm

751
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: sure that's not true for everyone, but it was and

752
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: still is very true for me. Also, just because I'm

753
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: the one going through it doesn't mean I necessarily know

754
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: how to approach the subject or have the language to

755
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: talk about it either. The kindest thing you could do

756
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: is talk with me, even if it's uncomfortable for you,

757
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: because it is way more uncomfortable for me, and it's

758
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 1: hard to get comfortable with something you can't talk about anyway.

759
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: When I was on quote unquote maternity leave afterward, I

760
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: was looking for things to read and listen to to

761
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: occupy my brain, and that's how I found you, guys.

762
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: Thank you for being there for me and getting me

763
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: re engage with the world. I'm a teacher and your

764
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: podcast always gives me ideas for topics to introduce to kids,

765
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: to broaden their beliefs and challenge their expectations. Well, thank

766
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: you so much, Sarah. We really appreciate your story. And

767
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: I've got a let her here from an anonymous listener

768
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: about our infertility episode, and she writes that episode stood

769
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: out to me personally for a number of reasons. Though

770
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: I'm only sixteen, the reality that I will never be

771
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: able to bear children is something I was recently faced with.

772
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: I developed an eating disorder at thirteen, which persisted in

773
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: phases throughout my adolescence. The effects of malnutrition on a

774
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: developing body vary, but for me, with my naturally small

775
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: size and severe state of anorexia, it caused chronic amenorrhea

776
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: and damage to my ovaries and uterus. As I recently

777
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: learned from my kind of colleges, the reality of this

778
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: is heavy, and I have yet to fully comprehend it.

779
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: As an absentent teenager, I've never given much serious thought

780
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: to my possible future as a mother. I guess now

781
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: the decision is made for me that if I ever

782
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: choose to have children, I'll have to go through alternate methods.

783
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: Your episode on this topic was somewhat of a stress

784
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,479
Speaker 1: reliever for me on the matter, and gave me lots

785
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: of great information about infertility across the globe and different cultures.

786
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: I know that if or when the right time comes,

787
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: my inability to conceive does not define who I am

788
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: as a woman or as a person, and that there

789
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: are many other paths to take toward parenthood. Thank you

790
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: so much for your time and dedication to talking about

791
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: these topics and how they pertain to women in all

792
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: walks of life. The show has certainly educated, entertained, and

793
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: encouraged me to be a more inclusive and aware of

794
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: feminist as well as more accepting of myself and others,

795
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: and I hope this has done the same for many

796
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: other fans of the show. Well, thank you so much,

797
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: Anonymous that is um so so kind to hear and

798
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: listeners again. Our email address is mom stuff at houself

799
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 1: works dot com. And for links to all of our

800
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos

801
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: and podcasts with our sources so you can learn more

802
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: about women in the trucking industry, head on over to

803
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for moralness and

804
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: thousands of other top picks. Is it how staff works

805
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: dot com