WEBVTT - The Last of Us, Vampires + the Writer’s Strike 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:04.600 Now really. 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:11.240 Really no, really, Hi, I'm Jason Alexander. 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.520 I'm here with my palent, Peter Tilden, and this is 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:15.040 our little podcast called. 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.080 Really No, Really, where we. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.760 Explore things that make us say really no, really really 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.680 yes exactly all right? 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:26.640 So if I made this sound, what would you think? Oh? 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:32.720 What would you think? You make that sound all the time? 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.120 You need to hear some next, you make that all 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:36.479 the time? What do you make if you make that 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.560 sound every day? Are here. 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.960 And you take out the sound the soundtrack of every 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:44.640 zombie movie? 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.720 Is that sucking question mark? That the dentist? You know 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.040 what else? I heard too? That's you just brought my 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:49.720 grandfather back. 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:56.280 So today we're gonna be talking about in essence, horror 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.360 and zombies and a very popular show. 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.480 But I really know, really of the day is I am? 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:04.959 It was and continue to be a big fan of 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.840 the Last of Us, the wonderful sci fi show on HBO. 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:12.959 And in the show, the world or much of the 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:17.320 world is suffering from a fictional brain infection that experts 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.880 say is inspired by a very real set of fungi 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:26.399 that can hijack their hosts and turn them into zombies. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:31.240 The infection is inspired by this reality cortyceps thing that exists, right, 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.640 and particularly the story that I've heard and they talk 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:36.840 about in the first episode of the Last of Us. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:42.120 It infects It's a parasitic thing that infects ants, and 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.000 it sort of takes over their minds, It controls their bodies, 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.360 and eventually it drives them to the top of trees 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.680 where they cling on and it spores out of their head, which, 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.000 by the way, disgusting, and the spores go everywhere and 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.600 they are zombieans. And then in the Last of Us, 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.880 the people who are infect by these spores become in 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:06.160 essence zombified and made into crazy. And for reasons I 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.280 don't understand, since this is all spore based. 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.000 If they bite you, you get it. I don't know 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.000 how to right, we'll find it makes no sense. 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:13.760 Ard. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:15.440 We're going to find out how it makes when we 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:19.560 found out the real thing, real thing, realation. 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:21.520 And I need more stuff to worry about, right, so 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:22.919 we go right. 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:24.919 Now, I gotta worry that in my salad, I'm meeting 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:26.720 a mushroom that's going to grow out of my head. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.280 And make me do things. Yeah, and by the way, 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.079 we with in thousands spores every time you take a breath. 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.760 You know it's correct a wrong sport gets in there. 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:35.720 I know if a wrong sport gets in there, you're 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.440 season two of Last of Us. Special guest. I heard 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.119 season two is a soup. Somebody has a suit. 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.079 By the way, I'm going to find out why Nick 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.240 Offerman and not Jason Alexander. I'm going to find out 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.079 because our guest today is none other than the show 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.079 r Under the producer and director. Truly a remarkable man, 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:55.200 mister Craig Mason, who, among other things, is is a writer, 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.880 a producer, a director. Uh Chernobyl? Did you see Chernobyl 0:02:58.919 --> 0:02:59.880 the HBO series? 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:01.000 A minute? 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:03.120 Then I ran out and read the book and you 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.840 know what, same ending. He's the he's co creating, his 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.200 co writing, executive producing the Last of Us, this big, 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.200 wonderful hit on HBO. He's won two prime Time Emmy Awards, 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.640 but they're primetime, but they're the real Emmy Awards. 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.160 Got the daytime. They separated the daytime show from like 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.560 a virus, so I was in prime time. I didn't 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.800 win an Emmy for that. They keep the daytime and 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.120 nighttime separate so that they don't instruct each other. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.400 That's you might also know him for such comedy films 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:37.200 A Scary Movie, three, Scary Movie, for Scary momentes seven, nine, twelve, 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.960 and eleven, hang Over Part two, Hangover Part three. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.400 He's never the first guy. He's always in after you 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.960 know what. We're not even two or three, So don't 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:45.640 knock the guy. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.640 You know an identity theft most importantly went to Freehold 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.120 High School, which is I almost if I had lived 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:53.160 another couple. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:54.760 Of blocks, I might have gone to Freehold High School 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:55.680 and fascinating. 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.520 We would have been best fascinating thanks for bonded, and 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:00.840 I might have been nick Offerman instead of nickoff. 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.840 Oh, we already started. We're already starting with the hello 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.200 to Craig Mason. Ladies and gentlemen, how are you, sir? 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:12.080 I'm just bowled over by the introduction. It was the most. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.200 Beautiful you never hear one like that again. 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.240 The prime numbered versions of Scary Movie. I got very excited. 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.279 You've done amazing things. And and by the way, getting 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.560 to the topic at hand, let's start with fun. Guy. 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.800 You were such a huge fan of the game that 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.200 you you went to them, and so I mean they 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.840 were they were into you. Because of how into it 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.480 you were, and but writing something to come from comedy 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.280 to something serious and drama, it's based on this. I'm 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:41.760 sure you had a ton of research, and I think 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.000 I read that you had a fungus expert on staff 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:46.080 at the show. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.000 Well, not on staff, but I certainly had quite a 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:54.160 few discussions with more than more than a few micologists, right, 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:55.359 So that's there, that's their. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.880 Own look at himnologists. That's what they don't know the terms. 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.120 Just to make you, guys feel even dumber than you 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:03.240 already felt. 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:04.640 Oh you can you can't do. 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:06.360 Yeah, let's see, I'm gonna try. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.760 Yeah, yeah, but it is the funky are kind of 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:17.240 amazing and and uh it's a it's a silly word 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.240 and it makes us laugh. And yet also they're remarkable. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.400 And the more I talked with these folks, the more 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.360 startled I was by the what they can achieve. I mean, 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.200 of course, every single my collegist I spoke with also said, 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:31.919 by the way, you know that this whole thing is 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.560 not that's not real, like what happens in the last. 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.320 Ones, I I cannot have. 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.159 Well, it can't happen like that. That is not to 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:44.000 say that fungi can't infect us and cause a lot 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.239 of serious problems. So can they take us over completely 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.640 and start growing out of our heads? It's unlikely. Can 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.320 they infect us and cause both serious disease and death, 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.440 no question? Can they infect us and also mess with 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.400 our brains? Absolutely, And we knew that already because we 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.880 have a lot of very famous drugs that are derived 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.040 from fungi, including things like LSD and psilocybin and so forth. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.839 But Creig make you make a compelling scene and therefore 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.279 point right at the beginning of the show where somebody says, 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:18.040 why can't this I'm maybe paraphrasing, why can't this infect humans? 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.120 And they said, because it can't exist at the temperature 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.479 of over I think in ninety four degrees and our 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.800 bodies are basically ninety eight point six. And somebody says, well, 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:31.360 what if a climate event happened and these fung guy 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.200 were able to adapt to warmer temperatures. And the guy 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.520 gets very serious and says, that would be very bad 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:38.000 for us. 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:38.360 Yeah. 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.720 Basically yeah, he says, we lose. And the truth is 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:44.560 that that is happening already. 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:45.479 It's happening. 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:50.200 Fungi are adapting, They are getting better at surviving higher temperatures, 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.279 and we are seeing an increase in fungal infections, and 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:57.599 fungal infections are very serious. And the theory of this 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:01.960 show the science fiction proposition and says, Okay, if this happens, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.599 then bungie will take our brain's over and turn us 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.599 into zombies. But the thing that's worse than that would 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:12.960 be just death. And that is real, that's real. If 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:17.520 fungi get much much better at infecting human beings, then 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:21.480 yes they can cause death, and that I dare say 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:22.840 it would be the worst outcome of them all. 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:25.600 Well, I can only tell you from the one that's 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:27.480 been on my big toe for two years. 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.920 And I'm using everything. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.120 I'm using everything, the tea tree, the eucalypt is, the jubilea, 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.120 the whole everything, And can I tell you. 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.720 It sounds you're using everything that doesn't work. Basically, that's 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:41.160 a great list of stuff that doesn't work. 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:41.720 Doesn't work. 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.200 Have you been to a medical doctor, I have good question. 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:48.960 They turned me on to most of this stuff and 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.680 they said, no. The only thing I haven't. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.440 Done seriously is apparently there's a pill. 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.600 You can say, but the pill is not benign. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.440 So you know, I'm a little aware and what we 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:00.880 will do. 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.040 To you, Well, if you have you know, it affects 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:04.440 your liver, it can affect it. 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:06.040 You know, it's. 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.600 With fighting fungi. Yeah, the medicines that we have are 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.560 I'm not going to say they like chemotherapy, but they're 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.480 kind of in that same world of, Hey, this thing 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.080 is so hard to kill. In order to kill it, 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.880 we're gonna have to kill also a bunch of you. Yeah, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:28.280 and that's why some fungal infections are almost impossible to treat. 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.679 I'm curious with the show, even though it's a drama 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:33.520 and it's based on something that we know can't happen, 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.360 although the adjacent stuff can happen that we're talking about. 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.480 It's always interesting what mail, what emails, what stuff have 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.320 you gotten from people who were attached the show in 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.040 a way you never anticipated because of that, maybe because 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.280 of the funds that you went, wow, this came out 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.080 of nowhere. I didn't realize that this affected people that way. 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:54.040 Well we do. 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.760 I mean, certainly people were impacted by the emotional storylines 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:00.640 and the characters more than anything else, I think, But 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.600 when it came to the science I did get quite 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.560 a few emails from scientists who are just grateful that 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:11.400 we depicted scientists in a way that wasn't I guess 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:15.040 the role that they often fulfill is the jerk who 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.760 thinks they know everything and is wrong until Bruce Willis 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.960 comes and explains how it really works. And you know, 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.880 we treat scientists, at least over here in my little world, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.719 with a lot of respect. And my feeling is that 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.920 when scientists are scared, that's the scariest thing of it 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.440 of all. I showed that insurable, and I showed it 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.640 again in the Last of Us, not more than once, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.480 because I do believe that there are people who spend 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.080 their lives studying these things and have no vested interest 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.520 other than being honest. They don't get paid a lot, 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.280 they're not trying to sell you anything. They're just telling 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.600 you the truth. Yeah, and we like to do and 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:59.160 we have this anti intellectual strain in our society that 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.800 wants to question every scientists say and do because they're 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.560 eggheads and they don't know they do they. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:08.000 Know being the people who know. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.079 Because Last of Us is a game based franchise in 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:14.200 a very successful game. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:16.680 You know, I always hear the guys who are. 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:18.880 Doing the Marvel films, there's a whole bunch of cooks 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:20.600 in the kitchen going, well, you can't do that. That 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.840 plays with the legacy of this and the mythology of that. 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:25.679 How much of what you were able to do with 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:30.760 the show was, Dick, Did you have those those you know, 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.480 the sort of guardrails from the game company, or were 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:38.040 you able to create out a whole cloth or you know? 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.760 I was very free. I mean the nice thing is 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:44.480 that the company so there is it's a big company. 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.840 It's called Naughty Dog. They're the company that makes the game. 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.320 Naughty Dog themselves are owned by Sony, which is a 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:56.160 small Japanese business concern. And yet I had enormous freedom 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.520 because I was working with Neil Druckman, who is the 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.800 man at Naughty Dog who create the story for the 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.040 Last of Us and runs the show over there and 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.959 also made the Last of Us Part two. So when 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.320 I came to Neil, I said, look this, I love 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.000 this game, I love this story. My interest is not 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.079 to change stuff just because I feel like changing things. 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.360 The things that we need to change are really more 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.360 about adaptation because we're moving from one medium to another, 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.880 so we have opportunities. Like a simple example is in 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.840 a video game, you are nailed to one person's perspective. 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.439 That's the person you're playing. In the Last of Us, 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.319 for the great majority of it, it's the character of 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.000 Joel that means we can't just leave and go meet 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.080 other characters who are separate from Joel and have and 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.680 hear them talk. That obviously is a huge part of 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.960 how narrative would function in television. So there are all 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.280 these opportunities to do different things. But also, you know, 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:47.800 there were times where I said, I'm going to want 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.320 to do it almost exactly the way it was in 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.440 the game, because there are these wonderfully cinematic moments, and 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:58.000 Neil was the best possible partner. It was like working 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.959 with a novelist who was excit I did about changing things. Yeah, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.920 sometimes I was the one who had to say, but 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:05.600 I really actually just want to do it the way 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.880 you did it before. And we had a great relationship 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.800 in that regard, and I think, you know, the reaction 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.760 from the fans was great by and large, and then 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:17.400 all the people that saw it that hadn't played the game, 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:21.840 I assume you guys would qualify. They were also pretty pleased, 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:23.559 so I think we did a good job. 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:24.760 They had no idea about the game. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.720 I think I heard you say somewhere that one of 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.319 the challenges was when you're playing the game. Certainly, my 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:37.160 son Noah knows the game very very well, and he 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.160 liked the show very very much and echoed something that 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:42.880 I think you said, which was, when you play the 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:49.200 game the zombies, fighting the zombies is ninety percent of 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.960 the thing you're doing, but in the show it is 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:55.120 actually a very small percentage of what's going on. And 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.360 was that a conscious decision to do that to yes, Yeah, yes. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:05.120 It was well because gameplay is the first time you 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.959 encounter these infected people running around. It's very scary and 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.560 it's very intense. But when you die, you get sent 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.720 back to the beginning of that section, right, That's not 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.680 how it works in TV. When you die. You did 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.640 so right off the bat. The way we treated violence 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.000 and the permanence of injury. Even the fact that Joel 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.440 punches a man in episode one and we see his 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.600 knuckles battered and bruised in episode two in and of itself, 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:38.959 is slightly revolutionary, but we treated we wanted to really 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.720 deal with violence as something that was far more permanent 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.720 and far more impactful. And we also knew that because 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:46.960 of the nature of gameplay, because you can go back 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:51.240 and start that section over again if you fail. The infected, 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.520 the zombies, the bad guys become more of a puzzle 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.920 to solve than a visceral experience that is about that 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.280 is reflecting relation and character. So we wanted all of 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.440 our action moments to reflect relationship and character. We wanted 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.520 those action moments to change the way the relationships between 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.360 the characters functioned and have lasting impact. So there were 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.040 far fewer of them in the show than in the game. 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:17.920 That's not to say that we might not ramp it 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.840 up for season two, because we also learned some interesting 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.400 things about how to better deliver that experience. It's a 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.480 tricky thing when you're doing anything for the first time. 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.640 I mean, the first season of any show is fascinating 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:33.920 to watch. It's you can see everybody slowly moving towards 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.400 what that very comfortable shape and experience will eventually be. 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.000 I think we got there kind of quickly, but yeah, 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.080 we learned some interesting lessons. That's not to say that 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.720 we're going to drown people in action for season two either. 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.440 But yeah, it was pretty intentional. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.480 So you're doing a thing about an epidemic during an epidemic. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:54.160 Yeah, that was weird. 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.560 That must have been really bizarre. You're wearing masks, you're 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.560 spreading illnesses, people are testing positive every day. Why you're 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.520 doing a show strange about people who have an infection. 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.600 And are doing well, Because ultimately, it wasn't a show 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:07.960 about having an infection and die, you know, that's the 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.320 thing it was. It was a show that had infections 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.480 in it, and it had dying in it. But you know, 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.560 I remember saying to Neil, the thing is, even if 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.760 COVID had never happened, we would all still be getting infections, 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:27.120 and regardless of that, also dying. So death and taxes 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:33.160 and the story ultimately is about love. And my feeling 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.720 was as long as we acknowledged in the beginning of 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.000 the series that we were aware as filmmakers that COVID 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:46.000 occurred in our sneaky way, then I think we would 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.280 be okay. And so in the very first scene of 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.040 the series, it takes place in the late nineteen sixties 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.280 or early seventies, I can't remember the exact year, and 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.400 it's basically a Dick Cavit show, and there's a scientist saying, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.120 oh no, no viruses. I mean, yeah, they kill people and 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.280 they're bad, but there's actually something worse, which is our 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.960 way of saying, we know we're coming, we're doing We're 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.400 not drafting off of COVID, we're not exploiting COVID to 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.040 make you feel scared. We're here to tell you there's 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:18.280 something worse than that. And from there things took off. 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.200 Can you confront this? I looked this at this, and 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.240 I saw it and I said, is this really right? That? 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.920 The show, first of all, was the largest television doctor 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.600 in Canadian history and generated about two hundred million in 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.480 revenue for Alberta, but sources suggest the budget was between 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.000 ten million and fifteen million, and bigger than the budget 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.360 exceeded the first five seasons of Game Thrones. As far 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.040 as budget, I thought, WHOA. 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:45.360 Yeah, yeah, well things have gotten more expensive. I mean, 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.880 it's true, people, it's funny. People forget the first few 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.240 seasons of Game of Thrones. It wasn't yet Game of Thrones, right, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.920 and so in I think it's the very first season 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.520 they're supposed to be this massive battle and instead Peter 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.920 Dinklic gets bunked on the head and falls, goes unconscious 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.520 and wakes up and they're like, it happened, It was crazy. 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.440 Oh my god, you should have been there. Anyway, we won. 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.280 So all this stuff happens off screen because they didn't 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.959 have money for it, and the budget eventually got up 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.480 and up and up. Things have changed, obviously in the 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.840 way we make television, and a lot of it is 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.320 kind of in this weird feedback loop that's caused some 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.760 of the problems in our business and it's why there strikes. 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:32.040 But it was a huge bet, a huge financial bet 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:32.679 by HBO. 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:34.480 It was a bet on me. It was a bet 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.440 on the material, and I was aware of that every day. 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.160 And it's a very strange thing to on the one 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.919 hand think, oh my god, I cannot believe they're trusting 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.119 me with all this money, and then one minute later go, 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.800 why won't they give me more money? I need more money, 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.960 and you because of the scale of what we're trying 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.800 to deliver it ultimately they supported us completely. I mean, 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.560 they just went all in on this, and I was very, 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.120 very grateful that it paid off. 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.200 Well I'm sure they are too, because it's it's it's 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:20.240 a brilliant show. You you made your bones in comedy, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:22.520 and I think you said to me when we when 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.040 we met that you know your aspirations were all about 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.439 being a comedy writer. And you know, arguably some of 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.760 your biggest projects have I mean, between this and Chernobyl, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:38.040 they're they're devastating. Promise, Why the Switch? How the switch? 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.760 Do you enjoy the switch? Do you miss working on 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:41.640 the funny stuff? 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.080 How did it all well? 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:45.960 This? I think? 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:48.480 Well, first of all, I'm sure there are quite a 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.280 few critics who are like, finally, he's no longer trying. 0:18:55.080 --> 0:19:02.040 But I I always I loved comedy. I loved the 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.600 difficulty factor, especially in movies. 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.040 It's really difficult. In movies. 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:08.800 You're going to gather a bunch of people in a room, 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.960 there is no laugh track, they can't go anywhere, and 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.480 they're all together and they have to laugh out loud 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.199 a lot. It's really hard to do. And when it 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.240 works there it's the closest you can get to feeling 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.240 like a rock star in our business as a writer, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.200 because it's there's this thing happening in a crowd. It's remarkable. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.640 So I got really addicted to that, and I loved it. 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.320 But as I got older, I started to feel a 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.919 little bit like I was kind of just being asked 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.520 to replicate a process and to do the same thing 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.439 over and over, because it's a very outcome oriented gig 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.760 get laughs. And also I was getting older, and I 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:54.800 think it's natural to start to disconnect from the churning 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.600 center of culture, you know, because I remember being in 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:03.480 my twenties and you know, working with David Zucker and 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.679 and thinking, you know, I would occasionally like to say, David, 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.399 I'm sure that was once funny in the Lyndon Johnson administration, 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:15.280 Wow it is not now, and here is why, and 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.080 and and then David in his like, oh yes, yes, 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.000 of course, yes, of course. And now I'm the age 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:24.040 that he was when I met him, and I don't 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.720 want to be I never want to be the person 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.040 going I don't understand why are they Why wouldn't they 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.640 see this as funny anymore? And I wanted to try 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.800 new things. I was always interested in these other aspects. 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.600 I just I always said, like writing feature comedy is 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.159 like being a left handed pitcher in the major leagues. 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.040 You might want to be something else, but they don't care. 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.040 They need you to pitch out of the bullpen to 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.520 face the left if they just don't have enough of 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.080 you to let you do anything else. So it was 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.439 it was a I guess, a big swing on my 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:01.159