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Speaker 1: It's that time, time time, time, Luck and load. The

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Speaker 1: Michael Verie Show is on the air.

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Speaker 2: The Democrats were heading to El Salvador to try to

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Speaker 2: bring back an MS thirteen gang member. That tells you

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Speaker 2: everything you need to know about where they are as

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Speaker 2: a party. Of course, Kamala Harris was their nominee and

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden before it. We're going to discuss that and

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Speaker 2: a number of other things today, but we start with

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Speaker 2: major international news. Pope Francis has passed at eighty eight

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Speaker 2: years old. The Catholic Church, you are Catholic or not,

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Speaker 2: is worthy of discussion because it is a very powerful

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Speaker 2: influence across the globe in many many ways. And the

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Speaker 2: passing of this Pope is momentous because he was a

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Speaker 2: very very political pope, or perhaps other popes have been political,

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Speaker 2: but not against my values. I am not Catholic. I'm

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Speaker 2: Southern Baptist, and I make jokes about Catholics, and seemingly

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Speaker 2: every one of my friends is a Catholic, and it's

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Speaker 2: an acquired taste to get the humor behind my Catholic jokes.

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Speaker 2: And so I don't tell as many on the error

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Speaker 2: as I would like to, but I get as well

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Speaker 2: as I give. My friends also make Southern Baptist jokes,

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Speaker 2: which I find to be hilarious. But then again, I

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Speaker 2: have what's known as a sense of humor. I have

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Speaker 2: a sense of hearing, a sense of taste, a sense

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Speaker 2: of smell, a sense of sight, and yes, I have

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Speaker 2: a sense of humor. A lot of people don't. Humorlessness

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Speaker 2: is one of the worst traits people who take themselves

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Speaker 2: too seriously. I went through this morning the rituals behind

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Speaker 2: a passing of the Pope, the whispering three times into

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Speaker 2: his ear.

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Speaker 1: When he does not respond and he is pronounced.

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Speaker 2: Dead, the fisherman's ring, which is the official signet ring

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Speaker 2: with which he stamps documents, is destroyed to represent that

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Speaker 2: the Pope and his authority have passed the taking over

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Speaker 2: of the power by what is effectively a charged to affairs.

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Speaker 2: The State Department will have that when an ambassador steps down,

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Speaker 2: and State Department's Charge to Affairs will take over the

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Speaker 2: ministerial duties. But in the meantime nothing of note is

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Speaker 2: supposed to happen until the conclave.

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Speaker 1: Between I think eleven and twenty days.

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Speaker 2: The rituals are interesting enough, and particularly I suppose if

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Speaker 2: you're Catholic, and the smoke and all of that, and

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Speaker 2: there will be time for that. But this is a

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Speaker 2: unique moment that I think is worthy of a conversation

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Speaker 2: about the direction of the Catholic Church politically, morally, culturally,

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Speaker 2: and I would like to have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Now. Let's begin with.

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Speaker 2: A piece that I saw written by Francis Rocca in

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Speaker 2: the Free Press today. The headline, which he may not

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Speaker 2: have written. Often the author the journalist doesn't write their

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Speaker 2: own headlines, but I don't know, was entitled the Passion

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Speaker 2: of Pope Francis. There's a striking symmetry in the timing

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Speaker 2: of Francis's death. The most influential figure of the global

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Speaker 2: left departs just as right wing populism rises around the world.

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Speaker 2: And Francis Rocca wrote, some Catholics are doubtless mourning less

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Speaker 2: deeply than others today, yet at the most iconic Pope

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Speaker 2: Francis could be a unifying, solitary presence.

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Speaker 1: I would argue that was not true. I would argue

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Speaker 1: he was very divisive.

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Speaker 2: And I would argue that he was outside the value

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Speaker 2: system of the Catholics that I know, and I don't

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Speaker 2: just mean politically conservative Catholics. I think that his politics

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Speaker 2: were very globalist and very leftist, and I think they

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Speaker 2: were very divisive for the laity and the clergy. And

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Speaker 2: we'll get to that in just a moment. Our guest

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Speaker 2: is David Devil, the chairman of the theology department at

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Speaker 2: the University of Saint Thomas, a fine institution of higher

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Speaker 2: learning in Houston. Professor Devill, welcome to the program.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me Michael for a moment.

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Speaker 1: We'll come back to that in a week or so.

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Speaker 2: With the rituals around the passing of a pope and

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Speaker 2: his replacement, and let's talk about Pope Francis and his

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Speaker 2: political views no less than the He was Argentine, obviously

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Speaker 2: from from whence he was elevated. Javier Milay, the leader

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Speaker 2: of Argentina, called him an imbecile and a communist turd.

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Speaker 1: He was no fan.

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Speaker 2: Let's just say I think one of the only visits

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Speaker 2: to the Vatican he made was upon the canonization of

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Speaker 2: an Argentine saint. But this Pope, Pope Francis, as he

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Speaker 2: came to be known, was, I would argue, very politically divisive.

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Speaker 2: Was he more political than past popes or was it

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Speaker 2: just that the politics he chose were very offensive to me.

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Speaker 3: Well, all popes are going to be political, you know,

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Speaker 3: the modern conception of a pope as well as you

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Speaker 3: know the ancient of the medieval one was that the

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Speaker 3: pope did have a kind of an authority, maybe not

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Speaker 3: over at the government, although some popes asserted that, but

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Speaker 3: they had a political authority, and all of them are

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Speaker 3: going to have an agenda, John Paul, the Seconds was

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Speaker 3: largely one that was about freedom against the communist East.

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Speaker 3: Benedicts was all the similar. But I think Francis was

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Speaker 3: no less maybe no more political in a certain way,

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Speaker 3: but he leaned, as you suggested, more toward a kind

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Speaker 3: of a globalist conception. He invited people like Jeffrey Sachs

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Speaker 3: to the Vatican, He praised figures who were involved in,

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Speaker 3: you know, the abortion industry at times, and so it

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Speaker 3: made it look very much as though he was taking

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Speaker 3: aside that most Catholics did and think was probably a

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Speaker 3: good idea, and many other people didn't think was a

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Speaker 3: good idea.

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Speaker 2: So you write on Catholicism, you teach on Catholicism, you

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Speaker 2: are Catholic. I'm curious to know your thoughts and I've

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Speaker 2: got about forty five seconds in this segment, so we'll

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Speaker 2: get to it deeper. In short, what percentage of Catholics

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Speaker 2: do you think disagreed with the pope on his very

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Speaker 2: what I would call leftward leaning positions public positions.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, the church is over a billion people,

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Speaker 3: so it's kind of hard to assess that. But one

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Speaker 3: way of thinking about it is, you know, under John

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Speaker 3: Paul the second and Benedict the sixteenth, the two previous popes,

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Speaker 3: thousands and thousands of people would come to the Vatican

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Speaker 3: in order to listen to him give addresses every Wednesday

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Speaker 3: at noon after the angelous prayer. Those numbers cratered shortly

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Speaker 3: after Francis took office.

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Speaker 1: Voting.

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Speaker 2: We hold just a moment, Hold just a Professor David Devill,

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Speaker 2: the chairman of the theology department at the University of

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Speaker 2: Saint Thomas in Houston, Texas, is our guest coming.

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Speaker 1: Up the Michael Berry Show, Michael Berry Show.

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Speaker 2: Sorry to assert supremacy here, but we have the prettiest

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Speaker 2: hymns in the Southern Baptist Church. But I'll give you

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Speaker 2: ave Maria, Professor, that's that one's solid. Professor David Devil

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Speaker 2: is the chairman of theology department at the University of

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Speaker 2: Saint Thomas, a fine institution in Houston, Texas. So let's

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Speaker 2: take some of the views that Pope Francis, who has

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Speaker 2: passed publicly professed that, I think, if nothing else were

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Speaker 2: different than past popes, seemingly LGBTQ issues in your understanding,

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Speaker 2: What was his view or what did he profess on that?

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Speaker 3: Well, he tried to draw a line between judging the

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Speaker 3: actions and judging the person, but unfortunately, in many of

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Speaker 3: the ways that he spoke there was a certain ambiguity,

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Speaker 3: and in many of the people that he promoted, such

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Speaker 3: as the American Jesuit James Martin, who was very pro LGBTQ,

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Speaker 3: it gave the impression that, well, he was kind of

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Speaker 3: drawing a doctrinal line, but in practice he was going

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Speaker 3: to let things go. So that's that's a difficulty. What

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Speaker 3: he said often could be defended, but it made you

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Speaker 3: have to really work and sometime tie up some of

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Speaker 3: his words and knots to make it work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you wonder, Well, let's go to the issue

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Speaker 2: where he really drew my ire, and that is the

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Speaker 2: issue of illegal immigration. He was very, very loud and

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Speaker 2: outspoken against America's ability to preserve our borders. And this

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Speaker 2: is a man who lived behind a wall. And I've

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Speaker 2: found that very hypocritical, and I'm curious to know why

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Speaker 2: you think he felt the need to do that. My

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Speaker 2: guess is there's a huge growth opportunity and a major

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Speaker 2: constituency in Latin American countries and that is the primary source,

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Speaker 2: not the sole source, but the or exclusive source, but

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Speaker 2: the primary source of illegal immigration.

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Speaker 1: So it was almost pandering in that sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it could have been. I think in many ways,

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Speaker 3: he had, you know, sort of decent ideas that were

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Speaker 3: often unguarded by any sort of rigorous thought. If you

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Speaker 3: read the Catholic Catechism, there is a duty to accept

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Speaker 3: refugees and people who have great need, but there's also

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Speaker 3: a duty of a country to judge about whether they

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Speaker 3: can handle that many immigrants. In many cases, when he

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Speaker 3: would speak about this, he would speak about the duty

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Speaker 3: and about charity and all of this kind of thing,

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Speaker 3: but not speak about the others. Now why he did that,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, many people thought it was

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Speaker 3: just a kind of sentimentality or a one sidedness in

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Speaker 3: his thought.

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Speaker 2: Professor David Devil is our guest. He is a writer, scholar, writer,

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Speaker 2: professor on Catholicism. He's a chairman of Theology Department of

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Speaker 2: University of Saint Thomas and Houston, professor.

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Speaker 1: Let me move to this next issue.

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Speaker 2: And that is the movement of people across borders. Whereas

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Speaker 2: our primary problem in the United States is illegal immigration,

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Speaker 2: much of it originating in Central and South America, but

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Speaker 2: plenty of it coming from other parts of the world.

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Speaker 2: In Europe they've had a problem, and again it's who

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Speaker 2: the proximity of nations with the relocation of Muslims, some

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Speaker 2: of them being much like m S. Thirteen or Trende

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Speaker 2: Aragua here very violent and they come in under this

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Speaker 2: asylum application and they have transformed much of Europe. So

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Speaker 2: there's a fellow by the name of Bishop Athanasius Schneider

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Speaker 2: who is from Kazakhstan, and he had the following to

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Speaker 2: say in response to the Pope.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and this is very serious. Now they witnessing and invasion.

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Speaker 4: They are no refugees, No, this is invasion of mass

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Speaker 4: Islamization of Europe, which already went on for at minimum

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Speaker 4: fifty sixty years. The Islamization in Europe, but now it

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Speaker 4: is in mass It is very evident. And so this

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Speaker 4: is a global political agenda by the powerful of the

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Speaker 4: world to destroy Europe culturally and religiously, I mean, to

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Speaker 4: destroy Christianity ultimately in Europe is the help of the

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Speaker 4: Islamic massive Islamic population. And I was reading recently an

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Speaker 4: article of social sociologists who made a calculation that maybe

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Speaker 4: in thirty or forty years when it's now going on,

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Speaker 4: so the majority of the population of Europe will be Islamic.

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Speaker 4: Europe will be Islamic when this will go on, because

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Speaker 4: the European people have almost known no children one or two.

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Speaker 4: The Muslims that they have five, six to ten children,

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Speaker 4: and so it is you can only make mathematics and

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Speaker 4: then you can see that it will be in the majority.

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Speaker 3: Your thoughts, well, I mean, I think Bishop Schneider is right.

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Speaker 3: These are an invasion, and anybody who follows what Muslims

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Speaker 3: who are coming into Europe often say, I will know

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Speaker 3: that many of them say this that with you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't even really have to invade militarily. We're going

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Speaker 3: to take over this place. People in America follow you know,

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Speaker 3: memory the Middle East media research Institute. They can find

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Speaker 3: statements like this all the time. I don't think Francis

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Speaker 3: was really completely aware of it, or whether he thought

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Speaker 3: that this was a problem. I think in many ways

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Speaker 3: he held a kind of sixties view that everybody would

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Speaker 3: get along eventually and there would be a kind of

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Speaker 3: move toward liberalism. I think that was probably naive in

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Speaker 3: the long run and didn't really have didn't really have

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Speaker 3: the same kind of reality that he often said that

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Speaker 3: he followed.

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Speaker 2: Right there, Professor David Deevil, the chairman of the Theology

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Speaker 2: Department of the University of Saint Thomas Bake Houston, is

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Speaker 2: our guest. Who will be the next Pope? We'll discuss

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Speaker 2: coming up the Michael Berry Show, Michael Berry Show. The

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Speaker 2: left are their own enemies in this matter. They can't

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Speaker 2: help it. They eat their own. The Free Press had

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Speaker 2: a piece by a fellow last name Rocca in it.

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Speaker 2: It's a good read talking about the fact that the

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Speaker 2: death of Pope Francis, which was announced earlier today, the

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Speaker 2: day after Easter. Interesting that the death of Pope Francis

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Speaker 2: occurs coincident with the rise of what they called right

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Speaker 2: wing nationalism, which I think is fair. You're seeing that

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Speaker 2: in Argentina and Brazil, and you're seeing a degree of

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Speaker 2: nationalism by the Italian Prime Minister who just visited a

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Speaker 2: very very bold statement to break with the EU and

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Speaker 2: come and cut a deal with President Trump. You're seeing that,

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Speaker 2: of course in this country with the rise of MAGA,

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Speaker 2: not just Donald Trump, but led by Donald Trump. And

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Speaker 2: you're seeing these elements rising Pierre Pove and pulluv pull

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Speaker 2: have I guess it is in h in Canada. You're

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Speaker 2: seeing elements rising in Germany, France and the United Kingdom,

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Speaker 2: not enough in those places to win elections, but growing

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Speaker 2: increasingly vocal with with Lapin in uh in France, but

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Speaker 2: with the passing of the Pope, the Catholic churches is

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Speaker 2: at an inflection point or crossroads. And Professor David Devil,

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Speaker 2: the chairman of the Theology Department of the University of

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Speaker 2: Saint Thomas and Houston, is our guest.

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Speaker 1: Do you have.

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Speaker 2: Any thoughts on who some front runners might be, who

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Speaker 2: you would like to see and whether you think the

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Speaker 2: direction of the pope will change from where Pope Princess

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Speaker 2: was to the problems he may have caused within the

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Speaker 2: church with his positions.

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Speaker 3: The one thing to notice that because Francis did live

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Speaker 3: for quite a long time. You know, he died at

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Speaker 3: eighty eight. He spent over about twelve years in the office.

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Speaker 3: He was able to appoint the electors, the cardinals honorary

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Speaker 3: members of the Clergy of Rome, about three quarters of them,

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Speaker 3: so he sort of stacked the deck.

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Speaker 1: In a way.

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Speaker 3: But on the other hand, if you look at all

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Speaker 3: of them, some of them are kind of progressive in

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Speaker 3: his mold, but not all of them. And that's because

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Speaker 3: in the Catholic Church sort of the progressive movement has

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Speaker 3: not has not borne a lot of fruit, and there

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Speaker 3: aren't a lot of people there. So I don't think

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Speaker 3: we're going to get a Francis too in a way.

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Speaker 3: But I think what might be the case is that

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Speaker 3: we get somebody who's a little bit more moderate. And

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Speaker 3: there are a number of figures who are in that camp.

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Speaker 3: The Latin Rite cardinal in Jerusalem, he has a name

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Speaker 3: Pizza Bola. I'm not sure that he pronounces it exactly

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Speaker 3: that way. It sounds like Pizza Baal is one who's

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Speaker 3: been kind of for his yeah, dealing with things. There's

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Speaker 3: a canon lawyer and bishop one who knows the law

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Speaker 3: of the church named Peter Erdo and Hungary. There are

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Speaker 3: a number of good ones who are out there. So

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Speaker 3: I think it's quite possible that the electors will say,

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Speaker 3: you know what, maybe we need to dial this back

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Speaker 3: a little bit because the future is not with a

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Speaker 3: sort of sixties era Catholic liberalism, and that's what Francis

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Speaker 3: kind of delivered church back into after John Paul and

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Speaker 3: Benedict changed the direction.

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Speaker 2: It's such an interesting moment in time. I want to

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Speaker 2: go back to you saying that the pope, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not well versed in how this works, but you say

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Speaker 2: that the Pope sort of stacked the deck on the

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Speaker 2: clergy that would have votes. I understand that within a

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Speaker 2: certain group of people, those under eighty have a vote.

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Speaker 2: Can you kind of talk through a little bit about

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Speaker 2: how that works and we'll have plenty of conversation about

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Speaker 2: that in the coming days, but just a sense of

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Speaker 2: who's going to be casting that vote, because who we're

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Speaker 2: going to elect as president. If they're voted on only

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Speaker 2: in Texas versus only in Vermont or California, that's going

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Speaker 2: to make all the difference, right, So talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about that, if you would.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So, cardinals are it's not a permanent feature of

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, but they are honorary members of the

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Speaker 3: clergy of real and most of them are going to

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Speaker 3: be bishops or archbishops, although some are named because they

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Speaker 3: do particular jobs for the Pope, and he rightly said

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Speaker 3: that they have voting privileges in a conclave where he

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Speaker 3: will elect the pope until they turned eighty. Now among

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Speaker 3: them is one a Guyana, a cardinal named Robert Sarah,

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Speaker 3: who's a very strong conservative, and a lot of people

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Speaker 3: have said it's very providential that he is going to

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Speaker 3: be able to participate in this conclave, not only vote,

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Speaker 3: but have a voice in it because he doesn't turn

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Speaker 3: eighty until June fifteen. And I think that he's a

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Speaker 3: figure who's going to be able to help garner support

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Speaker 3: for somebody who would be who would be a good candidate.

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Speaker 3: Some would like him to be the next pope. I

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Speaker 3: don't think they're going to vote for a guy who's

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Speaker 3: seventy nine at this point, but who knows. So this

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Speaker 3: is one of the important things is that Sarah has

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Speaker 3: been around, He's done jobs in the Vatican, and there

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Speaker 3: are a number of other figures who are like that.

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Speaker 3: The cardinals don't know each other that well because many

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Speaker 3: of them have been recently appointed, and because there were

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Speaker 3: few meetings during the sort of the Covid era. So

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Speaker 3: it's going to be important for people to get to

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Speaker 3: know each other during this process a little bit and

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Speaker 3: look to a leader. I'm hoping that they'll look to

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Speaker 3: somebody like Cardinal Sarah, who was often accused of being

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Speaker 3: unfaithful to Pope Francis or something like that, but he

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Speaker 3: never sees to say he supported the Pope, even if

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Speaker 3: he thought that certain decisions that were made were not

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Speaker 3: necessarily the best for the certain ways in which Francis spoke,

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Speaker 3: We're not wise. So I'm very hopeful that he will

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Speaker 3: have a lead in this and not some of the

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Speaker 3: figures who are in the in the Vatican right now,

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Speaker 3: Cardinal Perilyn Is, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Going to play something and come back and talk about it.

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Speaker 2: This is Archbishop Carlo Maria, the Archbishop calling Pope Francis

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Speaker 2: basically a tool of.

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Speaker 1: The World Economic Forum. Listen to this and we'll discuss

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Speaker 1: the next segment.

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Speaker 5: Before revolution terrorized by clau Schwamp and the Family of

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Speaker 5: International Finance find in Bergolio, not a neutral spectator, which

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Speaker 5: would itself already be an a heard of thing, but

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Speaker 5: actually as Zelus co operator who abuses his own moral

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Speaker 5: authority in order to support Adessa outside the church the

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Speaker 5: project of the dissolution of traditional society.

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Speaker 6: While I did within the church.

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Speaker 5: He pursues the project of the demolition of the Church

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Speaker 5: in order to replace her with a pinlanthropic organization Masonic inspiration.

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Speaker 6: And it is kindous this.

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Speaker 5: Applied to both to civil an ecclesiastical world, confirming the

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Speaker 5: part of Senery the criminal conspiracy between.

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Speaker 6: The deep State and the deep Church.

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Speaker 5: It seems to me that in this conspiracy the role

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Speaker 5: of the Jesuit has been the sizes. It is no

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Speaker 5: coincidence that for the first time in history a religious

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Speaker 5: of the Society of Jesus is seated on the.

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Speaker 6: Throne of Peter.

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Speaker 2: That's Martin Luther level important. We'll speak to Professor Deevil

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Speaker 2: about that coming up.

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Speaker 1: You've got them, Michael berrisshow.

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Speaker 2: Professor David Devil is the chairman of the Theology Department

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Speaker 2: at the University of Saint Thomas, an esteemed university in historic, beautiful,

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Speaker 2: beautiful campus at the corner of Montrose and West Alabama

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Speaker 2: in Houston, and he writes on Catholicism and is himself

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Speaker 2: a practicing Catholic. My kind of Catholic, conservative, values based Catholic.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have known over the years some very

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Speaker 2: intellectual Catholic scholars and their writings are just wonderful. And

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Speaker 2: it felt like he was a pope that did not

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Speaker 2: represent the Catholicism that I see practiced. I'm not Catholic,

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Speaker 2: I'm Southern Baptist. But let's talk about the I guess

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Speaker 2: the College of Cardinals, Professor Devil, the group of let's

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Speaker 2: say the equivalent of the Senate in the House and

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court to President Trump, the group.

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Speaker 1: Of folks within levels of leadership.

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Speaker 2: And to the extent to which they pushed back on

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Speaker 2: the Pope's positions that were, in my opinion, quite contradictory

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Speaker 2: to where they had been in the past.

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Speaker 1: And I know it would have caused problems.

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Speaker 2: Because I know a lot of American Catholics that were

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Speaker 2: very angry at the pope, and I have to think

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Speaker 2: that that hurt the church in some ways. Has there

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Speaker 2: been a level of division within the senior leadership saying hey,

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Speaker 2: can you dial it back a little.

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Speaker 3: I think there has been, but many of the figures

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Speaker 3: that asked questions publicly were not answered, some of them

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Speaker 3: were punished in a way. Cardinal or Archbishop Charles shap Hugh,

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Speaker 3: very well known Catholic bishop who retired from Philadelphia a

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Speaker 3: couple of years ago. He was widely thought to be

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Speaker 3: one of the cardinals, but Francis very pointedly did not

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Speaker 3: make him a cardinal because he was very outspoken on

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Speaker 3: certain issues, not necessarily even in a direct way of

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Speaker 3: challenge and just saying things in a different way. But

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Speaker 3: I do think that in the last couple of years

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Speaker 3: Francis did start to see some segment of the cardinals

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Speaker 3: and the bishops in general who started to, you know,

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Speaker 3: softly but firmly say no, particularly in a document that

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Speaker 3: seemed to indicate that it would be okay to kind

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Speaker 3: of have a have blessings for gay couples that were

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Speaker 3: that made it look as if it was going to

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Speaker 3: be a kind of a change in doctrine, And it

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Speaker 3: was a widespread rejection of that by a number of

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Speaker 3: bishop's conferences around the world that said, you know what,

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Speaker 3: this just we're going to sort of, you know, we

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Speaker 3: accept that you've sent this out, but we're not going

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Speaker 3: to do this, and I think it would it had

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Speaker 3: to be a kind of a quiet, a quiet and

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Speaker 3: political way of pushing back, because Francis was very notably

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Speaker 3: prone to sort of taking disciplinary action on bishops. The Tyler,

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Speaker 3: Texas Bishop Joseph Strickland was somewhat outspoken about things, maybe

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Speaker 3: unwisely so, and he was removed. He was removed from

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Speaker 3: his seat as the bishop. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: bishops and cardinals had to be somewhat careful about this,

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Speaker 3: but I think more of them realized that there has

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Speaker 3: to be some sort of a statement that the pope

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Speaker 3: is not infallible, meaning that he could never make a

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Speaker 3: mistake in anything that he does. That's a hard enough

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Speaker 3: teaching that occasionally a pope can say something that is definitive,

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Speaker 3: but certainly not in his administration and not in sort

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Speaker 3: of his general way of being. And it's not a

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Speaker 3: healthy situation for the Catholic Church to operate as if

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Speaker 3: the pope is an all knowing oracle. So I think

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Speaker 3: that there has been some shift in that and more

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Speaker 3: people have recognized this, even among the hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that about it not being healthy

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Speaker 2: for the laity or the clergy for that matter, to

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Speaker 2: treat the pope as the all knowing oracle. I would

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Speaker 2: argue that some folks seem to give almost an a

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Speaker 2: godlike status to the pope, And I can tell you

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Speaker 2: that from a very decentralized Southern Baptist, I find that

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Speaker 2: off putting and I find it unbiblical. I also think

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Speaker 2: that tends to be an attitude more in third world

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Speaker 2: countries where you don't have a tradition of an empowered

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Speaker 2: citizenry in a democracy or democratic republic, and people are

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Speaker 2: used to sort of a benevolent dictator and the subjugation

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Speaker 2: of the individual to the sovereign. I don't think you

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Speaker 2: see that as much here. Although some people do tend

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Speaker 2: to have that approach.

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Speaker 3: It's in a modern world. You may be right about

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Speaker 3: that tendency, but the history of the Church is not

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Speaker 3: such that the pope has has received that. It's a

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Speaker 3: kind of a modern development. Many people call it Ultramontanism,

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Speaker 3: meaning ultra beyond the mountains. People would look beyond the

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Speaker 3: Alps to Rome for the answer for everything. But the

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Speaker 3: history of the Catholic Church has been that, Uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: popes do have an authority, but particularly when they're exercising

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Speaker 3: administrative authority or practical authority, there's been there's been a

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00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 3: sort of a give and take and a pushback, you know,

440
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 3: on certain issues where if a pope is commanding something

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00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: that's kind of out of his his line of authority,

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00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,719
Speaker 3: there can there can be a sort of a gentle

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00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: or sometimes a rougher pushback. Many people don't know that though,

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00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: because for the last couple of centuries there's been this

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00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: Ultramontanism that's kind of had the mindset that, yeah, the pope,

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00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: you know, the pope not only as the final say,

447
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 3: but he has the first say in the middle say,

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00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: and nobody else has anything, and bishops are kind of

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00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: like middle managers that get pushed around by the guy

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00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 3: at the front office. But that's not, as you note,

451
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: a Biblical and then it's not really a Catholic view.

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00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 3: It's a kind of a distortion of traditional Catholic understanding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, we have people who want to

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Speaker 2: make gods out of sports figures because they scored the

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00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: touchdown for their team. Professor David Devil, the chairman of

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00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 2: the theology department at the University of Saint Thomas and

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Speaker 2: Houston mentioned Cardinal Sarah, who is from Guinea in West Africa.

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Speaker 2: I tried to find a translated version and I can't

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00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: find it. But there is a video and it is translated,

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00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: but not vocally where he says, I'm afraid the West

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00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: is dying. He's speaking to an English reporter. I'm afraid

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00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: the West is dying. You're being invaded by other cultures,

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00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: other peoples which will progressively dominate you by their numbers

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Speaker 2: and completely change your culture, your convictions, and your values.

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Speaker 2: It strikes me that there is a role for the

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00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: Catholic Church in the preservation of the church, and that

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00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: is that cultures who wish to subjugate that church and

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00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: the Christian faith and their mass migrations would be called

469
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: out by the clarion call of Hey, what's happening here?

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Speaker 2: We are up against a break, Professor David Devil, you

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00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: are wonderful. Thank you for making time for us. Is

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00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 2: your newsletter is that open to subscription? How does someone

473
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: get hold of it? I get it by email?

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00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: Well, it's yeah, I just send it out by email.

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00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 3: I'm hoping to maybe make it a substack, So.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, if anyone is interested in the writings of

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00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: Professor David Devil, you could, you know, very humbly call

478
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: it David Devil's dribble, you know, just kind of self deprecating,

479
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: and that would be cool. You seem like you're good

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00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: with self deprecating. Thank you for being our guest, Professor,