1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy B. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. We are 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: picking up today where we left off in the story 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: of dread Scott, his wife Harriet, and their daughters Eliza 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: and Lizzie, who were at the heart of one of 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: the most notorious Supreme Court decisions of all time. Last time, 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: we talked about dread Scott and Harriet and how they 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: met and what their lives were like before petitioning for 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: their freedom and a St. Louis Court in eighteen forty six. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: Today we are starting with what happened after the jury 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: found them to be free in eighteen fifty This will 13 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: probably make the most sense if you have listened to 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: part one. I mean, this's like, this is a narrative story. 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna be building on several things that we talked 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about in that episode. In eighteen forty five, the state 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: of Missouri was increasingly concerned about the impact of free 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: black people on the state and on the state's enslaved population, 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: so the state passed a law that year intended to 20 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: prevent freed people from burdening society, which also discouraged people 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: from emancipating their slaves. By law, if you emancipated someone, 22 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: you were often still responsible for supporting and maintaining that person. 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: This applied to enslaved people over the age of forty 24 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: five who were considered elderly, as well as men under 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: twenty one and girls under eighteen, along with anyone else 26 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: deemed not able to work. When Dread Scott and his 27 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: wife Harriet filed their petitions for freedom in eighteen forty six, 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: Dread was probably already over the age of forty five. 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: By January twelve of eighteen fifty, when a jury and 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: the St. Louis Circuit Court ruled that he was free, 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: he was about fifty and he also had tuberculosis, and 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: Eliza and Lizzie Scott were both under the age of eighteen. 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: This meant that of the Scott family, Harriet would be 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: the only person that Irene Emerson, who claimed to be 35 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: their owner, would not be legally obligated to support, so 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: from Emerson's point of view, she was not only losing 37 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: her valuable enslaved property and all of the profits from 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: their labor, but she was also incurring a huge financial 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: obligation in the form of the support and maintenance of Dread, 40 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: Eliza and Lizzie Scott. It seems as though Irene Emerson 41 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: could have had illegal out in this whole situation. Her 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: late husband, doctor John Emerson, had purchased Dread Scott in 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: about eighteen thirty three. It's not totally clear whether Harriet's owner, 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Major Lawrence Tolliver, had transferred her ownership over to Dr 45 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: Emerson or whether he had freed her. But neither Dread 46 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: nor Harriet were mentioned in Dr Emerson's will, nor were 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: their children. But by hiring out their labor, Irene had 48 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: been acting as though she owned them, so she had 49 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: the responsibility to support them now, whether she liked it 50 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: or not. So when a jury found that the Scots 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: were free, Emerson went to the Missouri Supreme Court with 52 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: an appeal. The reasoning quote First, the verdict was contrary 53 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: to law. Second, the verdict was not supported by the evidence. Third, 54 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: the instructions asked for by the plaintiffs Council and given 55 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: by the Court were not according to the law and 56 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: the evidence. Fourth, the court aired in refusing the instructions 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: asked by the defendants counsel. Emerson's attorneys, Hugh Garland and 58 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: Lyman Norris, tried to make the argument that during those 59 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: twelve years that Scott had spent in free territory, the 60 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: late doctor Emerson had been under military jurisdiction, which meant 61 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: that dread Scott was too. So this wasn't a matter 62 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: for a civil court. It was a military issue. And 63 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: on top of that, according to these attorneys, Scott's presence 64 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: in free territory was a military necessity, not something that 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: Dr Emerson chose to do, so, in their argument, Emerson 66 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: should not be penalized for doing what he had to 67 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: do by losing his enslaved property. This was one of 68 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: the many aspects of this case in which Harriet had 69 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: a stronger case for freedom than her husband did. Major 70 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: Tolliver was no longer in the military when he was 71 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: working as the Indian agent at Fort Snelling. He was, 72 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: as you may recall from the first episode, still called Major, 73 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: but he was a civilian and this whole this was 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: under military jurisdiction and a matter of military necessity argument 75 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: did not really apply. The Missouri Supreme Court, which was 76 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: at this point stacked with pro slavery judges allowed Emerson's appeal, 77 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: and they also folded Harriet's case into Dreads. Previously they had, 78 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: but these have been two different cases that were being 79 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: heard at the same time. But now they would hear 80 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: Dread's case and whatever verdict they came to would also 81 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: apply to Harriet and then, by extension, their children. Attorneys 82 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: on both sides agreed to combining the cases, but a 83 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: motivating factor on Emerson's side was that if Dread Scott's 84 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: case was the only one being examined, they would have 85 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: no reason to include any testimony from Lawrence Tolliver or 86 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: to resolve questions about Harriet's status when she married Dread. 87 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: Tolliver was still living, and he certainly could have cleared 88 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: up this whole question about whether or not he had 89 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: considered Harriet to be free when he officiated at her wedding. 90 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: But by removing Harriet from this equation entirely, they did 91 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: not have to address that subject at all. That took 92 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: more than two years for Irene Emerson's appeal to be 93 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: heard by the Missouri Supreme Court, and in the NRM 94 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: she moved to Springfield, Massachusetts, and she married Dr Calvin 95 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: Clifford Chaffee. Chaffee was an outspoken abolitionist and a doctor, 96 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: and Irene Emerson apparently did not tell him about owning 97 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: the Scots when they got married. Seems to be like 98 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: a pattern with her husband's where they're not of this 99 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: same mindset as her. That would seem like a recipe 100 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: for not a great marriage, but what do I know. 101 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: On March twenty eight, fifty two, the Missouri Supreme Court 102 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 1: issued its decision. The court reversed the jury's earlier verdict, 103 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: declaring that Scott was still enslaved. This throughout the long 104 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: held standard of once free, always free in Missouri. It's 105 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: likely that the opportunity to overthrow that standard was one 106 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: of the reasons that the court agreed to hear the appeal. 107 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: The reasons for it were actually pretty flimsy. Yeah, you 108 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: don't get to have an appeal just because, like, there 109 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: has to be a reason for something in the in 110 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: the previous trial that needs to be addressed. And the 111 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: reasons that Emerson's attorneys built their appeal requests around were 112 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: not great, But the court did it anyway. So, with 113 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: the help of anti slavery lawyers, the Scott family once 114 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: again tried to appeal their case, this time by going 115 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: to the US Federal Circuit Court in St. Louis. But 116 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: according to the Circuit Court's decision, the state of Missouri 117 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: had already declared the Scots to be enslaved. This was 118 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: already settled by the state, so the federal court did 119 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: not have a reason to hear the case. But when 120 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: Irene Emerson left Missouri for Massachusetts, she had turned over 121 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: management of her late husband's estate to her brother, John F. A. Sandford. 122 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: His name is spelled s A N F O R D, 123 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: but it is recorded with an extra D in it 124 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: thanks to a clerical error in court documents. Sandford was 125 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: living in New York while the Scots were still in Missouri, 126 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: and this became the grounds for the Scott family's final 127 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: appeal to the U. S Supreme Court. Their lawyers argued 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: that the Scots were citizens of Missouri, but Sandford was 129 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: a citizen of New York and was enslaving them. This 130 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: made it a federal case rather than one for the 131 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: state of Missouri. We're going to talk about the Supreme 132 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: Court case after we first have a little sponsor break. 133 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: Before the dread Scott Families case made its way to 134 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Congress was hoping for some judicial guidance 135 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: on the constitutional question of whether it had the right 136 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: to outlaw slavery. Although Congress had outlawed slavery in various 137 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: parts of you as territory under things like the Northwest 138 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: Ordinance and the Missouri Compromise, both major parties had been 139 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: reluctant to take any clear legislative direction on the matter 140 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: of slavery when it came to the states. Instead, it 141 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: had passed the Kansas Nebraska Act in eighteen fifty four, 142 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: which overturned the Missouri Compromise and allowed a territory as 143 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: settlers to decide whether to allow slavery when that territory 144 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: became a state. The question of whether Congress had the 145 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: right to outlaw slavery was both a genuine constitutional question 146 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: and a way of passing the buck. If the Supreme 147 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: Court decided that Congress did not have the authority to 148 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: outlawst slavery, then Congress wouldn't ever have to address it, 149 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: and a bunch of legislators would breathe a huge sigh 150 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: of relief. President elected James Buchanan also pressured the justices 151 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: to take an unified stance on this matter, one that 152 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: would take slavery off the table of political debate and 153 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: would show the public that the Court's opinion wasn't divided 154 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: along geographic or ideological lines. But the makeup of the 155 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: Supreme Court at this time made it really likely that 156 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: any unified decision they might release would be in favor 157 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: of slavery. Of the nine Supreme Court justices, five of 158 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: them had been appointed by pro slavery presidents. Several of 159 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: them were also from families that owned slaves. Dread Scott 160 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: versus Sandford was argued from February two through the eighteenth 161 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: of eighteen fifty six. Dread Scott was represented by Montgomery 162 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: Blair and George Ticknor Curtis and John F. A. Sandford 163 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: was represented by Henry S. Geyer. The arguments included all 164 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: the same points that we've already talked about, although based 165 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: on the Court summary, the Court was under the impression 166 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: that Lawrence Tolliver was in the military when he was 167 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: at Fort Snelling with Harriet Scott. If you remember from 168 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: part one, he was not. The Supreme Court issued its 169 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: decision on March sixth of eighteen fifty seven, and in 170 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: a seven to two ruling, the court ruled in favor 171 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: of John Sandford. Dred Scott and the rest of the 172 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: Scott family had lost their case for freedom, and they 173 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: had no other way to appeal it. In the Supreme 174 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: Court's opinion, dred Scott's case was outside its jurisdiction. This 175 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: wasn't an interstate dispute because dred Scott was not a 176 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: citizen of any state. Quote, a free Negro of the 177 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: African race whose ancestors were brought to this country and 178 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: sold as slaves is not a citizen within the meaning 179 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: of the Constitution of the United States. The opinion went 180 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: on to say, quote, and not being citizens within the 181 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: meaning of the Constitution, they are not entitled to sue 182 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: in that character in a court of the United States, 183 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: And the Circuit Court has no jurisdiction in such a suit. So, 184 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: not only did dread Scott not have the right to 185 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: sue for his freedom and federal court, but under the 186 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: terms of this ruling, no enslaved African and no descendant 187 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: of an enslaved African had any right to sue in 188 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: federal court about anything. Ever, because enslaved Africans and their 189 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: descendants were not citizens of the United States. I'm repressing 190 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: a growl. The court recognized that a state might make 191 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: an African a citizen of that state, but it also 192 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: argued that states had no power to grant U S citizenship. 193 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: This contradicts Article for of the Constitution, which reads, in 194 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 1: part quote, the citizens of each State shall be entitled 195 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States. 196 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: Citizens of the several States had the right to sue 197 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: in federal court. The court's decision also reinforced the fact 198 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: that the U. S. Constitution condoned slavery, saying, in part quote, 199 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: the only two clauses in the Constitution which point to 200 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: this race treat them as persons whom it was morally 201 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: lawful to deal in as articles of property and to 202 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: hold as slaves. According to the Court, the original framers 203 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: of the Constitution had seen Africans as inferior and had 204 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: not intended to give them any citizenship rights, so the 205 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: Constitution did not apply to Africans apart from the portions 206 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: that allowed for slavery. And continuing this argument, if Africans 207 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: were allowed to become citizens, that would place an undue 208 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: burden on society by forcing society to grant Africans all 209 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: the other constitutional rights that white people had. The court's 210 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: decision also spelled out that it did not matter that 211 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: people's attitudes about Africans had changed since the Constitution was written. Quote, 212 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: the change in public opinion and feeling in relation to 213 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: the African race which has taken place since the adoption 214 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: of the Constitution cannot change its construction and meaning. And 215 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: it must be construct and administered now all and according 216 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: to its true meaning and intention when it was formed 217 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: and adopted. This is not a term that was coined 218 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: yet when this was written. But today we call this 219 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: way of interpreting the Constitution originalism. But the court went 220 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: on to explain that just because dread Scott's case wasn't 221 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: within its jurisdiction, that didn't mean it wouldn't go on 222 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: to examine all the other aspects of the case. The 223 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: result was an incredibly far reaching decision that was definitely 224 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: not just about whether dread Scott was free, and the 225 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: process of this examining all the various aspects of the 226 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: case that it did not have the decision to say 227 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: anything about. The court ruled that the federal government did 228 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,599 Speaker 1: not have the right to outlaw slavery in its territories 229 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: because slave states had as much right to make use 230 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: of the territories as free states did. Slaves were also 231 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: considered to be property, and under the Fifth Amendment, the 232 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: federal government could not deprive people of property. Following this 233 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: line of argument, even though them as a recompromise had 234 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: already been repealed by the Kansas Nebraska Act in eighteen 235 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: fifty four, it was also declared unconstitutional under the dread 236 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: Scott decision. The court also ruled that this whole once free, 237 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: always free precedent in Missouri law was unconstitutional because it 238 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: denied slave owners their right to do process. Chief Justice 239 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: Robert B. Taney authored the court's majority opinion, and the 240 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: six justices who agreed with him also wrote their own 241 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: supporting or separate opinions. These justices were James Moore, Wayne 242 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: John Catron, Peter Vivian Daniel, Samuel Nelson, Robert Cooper Greer, 243 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: and John Archibald Campbell. Although they had all voted with Teney, 244 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: some of them followed very different lines of thought about 245 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: how they arrived at their decisions. There are a lot 246 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: of contradictions among all of these opinions. Justices Benjamin Robbins 247 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: Curtis and John McLean were the only two who voted 248 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: in favor of Scott. Both wrote their own dissenting opinions, 249 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: which are both very long. Yes, they are incredibly long. Curtis, 250 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,359 Speaker 1: who was the brother of one of the Scots attorneys, 251 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: went on at length about the citizenship question. He examined 252 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: how citizenship is determined from a lot of different angles, 253 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: going all the way back to the Articles of Confederation 254 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: and the original constitutions of several of the states that 255 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: had been part of the thirteen Original Colonies. He wrote, quote, 256 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: at the time of the ratification of the Articles of Confederation, 257 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: all free native born inhabitants of the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, 258 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: New York, New Jersey, and North Carolina, though descended from 259 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: African slaves, were not only citizens of those states, but 260 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: such of them as had the other necessary qualifications, possessed 261 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: the franchise of electors on equal terms with other citizens. 262 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: Curtis also wrote that while they were living in Wisconsin Territory, 263 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: the Scots quote were absolutely free persons, having full capacity 264 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: to enter into the civil contract of marriage, and disagreed 265 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: completely that the Missouri Compromise was unconstitutional. For McLean's part, 266 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: he tore into the idea that non citizens did not 267 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: have the right to sue in federal court, saying, quote, 268 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: it has never been held necessary to constitute a citizen 269 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: within the Act that he should have the qualifications of 270 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: an elector. Females and miners may sue in the federal courts, 271 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: and so may any individual who has a permanent donosile 272 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: in the state under whose laws his rights are protected 273 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: and to which he owes allegiance. He also tossed out 274 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: the idea that Scott would have needed to go through 275 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: some kind of naturalization process to become a citizen, as 276 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: he had been born in the United States. He flatly 277 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: dismissed the idea that the Missouri Compromise was unconstitutional as well, 278 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: citing previous decisions that gave the United States jurisdiction to 279 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: govern territories that did not yet have the ability to 280 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: self govern by having become states. McLean's descent also brought 281 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: up the Somerset case, which we talked about when we 282 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: discussed Dido Elizabeth Bell. The Somerset case involved an enslaved 283 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 1: man who was brought to England, which rendered him free, 284 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: but was then captured and put on a ship to 285 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 1: be returned into slavery. Although the Somerset case didn't end 286 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: slavery in Britain, it was often interpreted as though it did. Altogether, 287 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: there were two hundred forty pages of opinions issued in 288 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: the dread Scott decision, and its impact on the nation 289 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: was enormous. And we're going to get into that after 290 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: we pause for a sponsor break. The decision in dread 291 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: Scott versus Sandford was praised in pro slavery circles and 292 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: announced by abolitionists. Charles Sumner, who had been caned on 293 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: the Senate floor on May eighteen fifty six and retaliation 294 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: for an anti slavery speech, said quote, I declare that 295 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: the opinion of the Chief Justice in the case of 296 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: dread Scott was more thoroughly abominable than anything of the 297 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: kind in the history of courts. Judicial baseness reached its 298 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: lowest point on that occasion. This appeared in the New 299 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: York Daily News on March tenth, eighteen fifty seven. Quote. 300 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: The Court has rushed into politics voluntarily and without other 301 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: purpose than to subserve the cause of slavery. They were 302 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: not called, in the discharge of their duties to say 303 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: a word about the subject. They consented, with unseemly haste, 304 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: to dabble in the dirty waters of political corruption. On 305 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: the other hand, newspapers in the South were overjoyed. The 306 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: Richmond Inquirers celebrated with quote, A prize for which the 307 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: athletes of the nation have often wrestled in the halls 308 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: of Congress has been awarded at last by the proper 309 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: umpire to those who have justly won it. The nation 310 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: has achieved a triumph. Sectionalism has been rebuked, and abolitionism 311 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: has been staggered and stunned. Congress and the President, who 312 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: was inaugurated just days before this decision was released, had 313 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: hoped that some judicial clarity on the subject of slavery 314 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: would help hold the country together. Instead, it did the opposite. 315 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: Abolitionists worried that the decision would lead to the rampant 316 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: spread of slavery into what had been free territory. Free 317 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: black residents of the United States became terrified about whether 318 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: they would be captured and sold back into slavery, similar 319 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: to what happened after the passage of the Fugitive Slave Acts. 320 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: The fact that the Court issued such a broad and 321 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: divisive decision, which took on so many issues outside of 322 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: the question of dred Scott's freedom, also undermined confidence in 323 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: the Court's abilities and its purpose. All this together reinvigorated 324 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: the Republican Party, which had been founded by anti slavery 325 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: whigs in eighteen fifty four, and the decision became a 326 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: huge part of the Lincoln Douglas debates when Stephen A. 327 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: Douglas and Abraham Lincoln were running for one of Illinois 328 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: seats in the U. S. Senate. Lincoln lost this election, 329 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: but these bates helped make him a national name and 330 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: positioned him for a presidential run in eighteen sixty. As 331 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show before, several states threatened 332 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: to seed from the Union if Republican won that election, 333 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: and when Lincoln was elected, they made good on that threat, 334 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: which started the nation towards the Civil War. The dread 335 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: Scott decision wasn't overturned until after the war was over, 336 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: with the passage of the thirteenth and fourteenth Amendments to 337 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: the Constitution. The thirteenth outlawed slavery and involuntary servitude accept 338 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: in punishment for a crime, and the fourteenth outlined rights 339 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: of citizenship, including who had the right to be a 340 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: citizen and what that right entailed. To return to the 341 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: Scott family. As we said earlier, Irene Emerson's husband, Calvin Chaffee, 342 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: was against slavery, and Irene had not told him that 343 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: she owned slaves at all before they married. When he 344 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: finally learned that his wife not only owned slaves, but 345 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 1: specific the owned dread Scott, which he apparently learned about 346 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: from a newspaper, he was mortified. He had also been 347 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: elected to the House of Representatives and had taken office 348 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: on March fourth of eighteen fifty five, so people, of 349 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: course pointed this out as a massive hypocrisy. This is 350 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: one of those big like question marks in my head 351 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: of like really no idea, but I understand how these 352 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: things happen. There's some like conjecture that he really did 353 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: know and that he sort of tried to manipulate behind 354 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: the scenes to to get this move through the courts, 355 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: but like that's completely speculation. It's fascinating. Once the Supreme 356 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: Court issued its decision, Calvin insisted that Irene make provisions 357 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: to free the Scots. He arranged for the Scots to 358 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: be sold to a member of the Blow family, who 359 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: would then free them, and Irene did ultimately agree to this, 360 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: but only if she could collect all of the back 361 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: pay that the Scots had earned while in the custody 362 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: of the St. Louis County Sheriff. That amounted to roughly 363 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty dollars. The Scots were formally liberated 364 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: in a St. Louis court on May seven. That is 365 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: the part of the outline where my original note taking 366 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: became all capital letters of she would only agree to 367 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: free them if she got all their back pay? Are 368 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: you kidding me? This terrible perth Like all capital lots 369 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 1: of exclamation points. It took me a while to then 370 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: make that be intelligible sentences. Once they were free, Dred 371 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: Scott worked as a porter at Barnum's Hotel in St. 372 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: Louis and Harriet Tick in laundry. But Dredd died of 373 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: tuberculosis after less than eighteen months of freedom on September 374 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: seventeenth of eighteen fifty eight. Taylor Blow arranged for his 375 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: burial at Wesleyan Cemetery, and then when that cemetery was abandoned, 376 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: had his remains exhumed and reburied at Calvary Cemetery. Harriet 377 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: Scott lived to see the end of the Civil War 378 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: and the abolition of slavery. She died on June seventeenth, 379 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six, and she was buried at Greenwood Cemetery 380 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: in St. Louis. Although a headstone was placed in the 381 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: cemetery to commemorate her in recent years, her exact resting 382 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: place is not known. Today, there is a statue of 383 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: Dread and Harriet Scott outside the courthouse where their case 384 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: was tried. Today, Dread Scott has become kind of a 385 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: political shorthand for any court decision that someone thinks is 386 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: egregiously bad for whatever reason, It's been brought up as 387 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: a comparison for everything from Oberfeld versus Hodges, in which 388 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: the court ruled that same sex couples have the right 389 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: to marry two citizens United versus Fec, which ruled that 390 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: corporations have a right to free speech in the form 391 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: of political donations. Anti abortion groups and legislators also frequently 392 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: compared dread Scott to Row versus Wade. Just as one example, 393 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: Senator or in Hatch characterized the two cases as indistinguishable 394 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: during Ruth Bader Ginsburg's confirmation hearings to be a Supreme 395 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: Court justice. In Senator Carol Moseley Braun, at the time, 396 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: the only black senator, objected to that comparison at the 397 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: time as personally offensive dread Scott versus Sanford. I wish 398 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: more people remembered that it was also dread Scott's family, 399 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: because I know that when I UH first study this 400 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: case in American history class, it was definitely framed as 401 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: dread Scott was enslaved and he sued for his freedom, 402 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: and there was no mention of the fact that there 403 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: was an entire family involved in the whole situation. Yeah. Same. 404 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: It was definitely the very simplified and paired down version 405 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: of the story that I got. I have some listener 406 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: mail to close us out. It's from Karen and it 407 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: is about Operation Babylift, and Karen says, I've just listened 408 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: to the latest six Impossible Episodes podcast about evacuating children. 409 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: I was a young adult when Operation Babylift occurred at 410 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: the end of the Vietnam War, and remember hearing about 411 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: the crash news You never mentioned the type of aircraft 412 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: that crashed, or that it was the military cargo plane. 413 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: It was a C five, a Galaxy manufactured by Lockheed 414 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: and the largest cargo aircraft in the world. The cargo 415 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: area is large enough to load the biggest cargo that 416 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: the military has, and the passenger area sits at the 417 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: top of the plane. I believe it has around seventy 418 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: permanently installed passenger seats. I'm a retired Air Force load master. 419 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: I was assigned to THEE B, also made by Lockheed, 420 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: and the C seventeen A. I have flown as deadhead 421 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: crew on the C five a few times. What didn't 422 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: come across very well in the podcast was that the 423 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: cargo area of the C five and all military cargo 424 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: aircraft is large and can be configured for use by passengers. 425 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: In addition their procedures and the manuals for emergency evacuation 426 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: that direct the load masters to seat evacuees on the 427 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: floor and secure cargo tie down straps across them and 428 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: keep them in place. Tied on straps are long nylon 429 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: straps with a ratchet device to tighten it, a little 430 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: wider and thicker than the car seatbelt that we use 431 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: every day, there were likely no seat palettes available, so 432 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: the crew used the evacuation procedures to secure the passengers. 433 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: They were headed to Clark Air Base in the Philippines, 434 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: so it would have only been a two and a 435 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: half hour to three hour flight to set on the 436 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: floor like that. I just thought I'd do that out there. 437 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: You may have made a conscious decision to leave out 438 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: the details of the type of aircraft and that the 439 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: crew was military. I agree that the operation was politically 440 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: motivated from the very top level of the government, and 441 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: given the disaster that the war had become by that time, 442 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: it can also be called a poorly thought out publicity scent. 443 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: But the air crew and the medical crew were following orders. 444 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: We take an oath to obey the lawful orders of 445 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: the officers appointed above us. Thanks for letting me vent 446 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: a little. In twenty two years as an aircraft crew member, 447 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: I felt gutted by every crash and still do and 448 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: have lost friends and some of them. This particular crash 449 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: is part of the history of the relatively small Cargo 450 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: Holler community, and although it happened before my time in 451 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: the Air Force, that is so keenly felt by those 452 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: of us who haven't benefited from the lessons learned Karen. 453 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: Thank you Karen for sending this note. UM. I had 454 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: thought it it was clear in the episode that that 455 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: was a military aircraft and a military mission. UM. I 456 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: didn't include the specific type of the plane because I 457 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 1: feel like for the majority of our listeners that is 458 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: not going to help paint the picture at all, Like, 459 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: I don't think most people know what specific uh military 460 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: cargo planes look like. Um. And to clarify something that's 461 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: in here in in regards to evacuating children and adults, 462 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: people would have been sitting on the floor and and 463 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: secured down with cargo straps. But in this case, these 464 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: were babies. Like they were babies that were laying on 465 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: the floor in groups. UM. So it wasn't quite as 466 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: as simple as um, okay, this thing is sort of 467 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: like a seat belt and we have a few hours 468 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: of trip on the floor. It was like, here are 469 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: groups of babies that are being secured with cargo netting. 470 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: Uh So, anyway, thank you for that clarification, Karen. If 471 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: you would like to write to us about this or 472 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: any other podcast where a history pie cast at how 473 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com and then we are on Facebook 474 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: and Twitter and Instagram and Pinterest as missed in History. 475 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: Our website is at miss in history dot com, where 476 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: you will find show notes to all the episodes that 477 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: we have ever worked on, uh the Holly and I 478 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: have worked on together, rather including and this one links 479 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: to all of those two pages of court opinion and 480 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: dread Scott versus Sanford. You can also subscribe to our 481 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: show on Apple podcasts, Google Podcasts, wherever else you get 482 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: your podcasts. For more on this and thousands of other topics, 483 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: is it how Stuff Works dot com