1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. I said 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: back in our episode on the south Sea Bubble that 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to do one on Charles Ponzy. 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: So here it is. His name is synonymous with one 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: particular kind of fraud today. But until I started researching 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: this episode, I did not realize just how short lived 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: this scheme that made him famous was. Like I imagined, 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: if his name becomes synonymous with the thing that he 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: was running this scam for years and years, a long 12 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: term identity for now not the case. Carlo Ponzi was 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: born on March two, Lugo, Italy. He was the only 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: child of arrest A and Ponzi. Arreste was a postal 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: worker and Emelde's family was from Parma, Italy. The Ponzi's 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: life was comfortable but fairly modest, and after they moved 17 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: to Parma when Carlo was still a child, Emelde entertained 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: him with stories of the opulent homes and luxurious lifestyles 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: of their wealthier relatives in the area. Oreste and Emelda 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: wanted Carlo to become a lawyer and maybe eventually work 21 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,279 Speaker 1: his way up to being a judge, something that would 22 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: be a little more prestigious and have more income than 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: what they had, so they sent him to a private academy. 24 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: He became fluent in French there. Oreste died before Carlo 25 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: started college, but he left Carlo enough money to pay 26 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: for an education at La Sapienza Universita de Roma. Like 27 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are away from home for 28 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: the first time, when Carlo got to college, he made 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: the most of his newfound freedom. He was attractive, he 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: was charismatic, He made friends really easily, and a lot 31 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: of the friends had he made had a lot more 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: money than he did. Some descriptions of him make it 33 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: sound like he immediately started doing petty crimes, but it 34 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: seems more like he just burned through his inheritance buying 35 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: clothes and going to the opera and trying to keep 36 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: up with his new circle of fancy partying friends, including 37 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: drinking and gambling. But after a couple of years he 38 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: had frittered or gambled his inheritance away, and he was 39 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: failing his classes. An uncle who had become something of 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: a father figure to him suggested that he get a job, 41 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: maybe as a clerk, something that would be stable but 42 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: not require a degree. Carlo hated this idea. He could 43 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: not afford this extravagant lifestyle he had been trying to 44 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: keep up, but he had gotten used to it and 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: it was what he wanted. Getting some kind of low 46 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: level job felt like an insult and something that all 47 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: of his friends would judge him for. I can understand 48 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: all of this. Meanwhile, his family was becoming increased singly 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: frustrated with him. They were having to loan him money 50 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: to pay his debts or cover various fines on his behalf, 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: and this became not just expensive but also embarrassing. So 52 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: his uncle made another suggestion that he might immigrate to 53 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: the United States and try to make a life for 54 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: himself there. So some relatives pulled their money and they 55 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: bought him a ticket aboard the s S Vancouver. They 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: gave him a gift of about two hundred dollars to 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: get him started. Although Carlo didn't really know what he 58 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: was going to do once he got to the US, 59 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: this did seem more appealing to him than getting a 60 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: desk job in Italy. He also seems to have thought 61 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: it might give him a chance to redeem himself in 62 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: the eyes of his mother. It does seem like he 63 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: regretted how much his time and college had really disappointed her, 64 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: so he took his uncle's suggestion. He departed for Boston 65 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: in November of nineteen o three. Unfortunately, though he gambled 66 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: and drank away most of that two hundred dollars during 67 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: the edge, Carlo did not stay in Boston for long. 68 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: Another relative offered him a job at his freight company 69 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh, and Carlo traveled there by train, spending most 70 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: of the trip trying to improve his knowledge of English. 71 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: He did not like that job in Pittsburgh, though, so 72 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: he quit, and for a while he traveled around New Jersey, 73 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: New York, and Rhode Island doing whatever work he could find. 74 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: Most of that work involved manual labor, things like painting 75 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: signs and working at a laundry. At this point, there 76 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: was not a standardized spelling of Ponzi in the US, 77 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: and he spelled his name in a few different ways. 78 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: He also sometimes used a different name, the surname of Bianchie. 79 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: By nineteen o seven, Ponzi was fluent in English, French 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: and Italian, and that was really useful for working in 81 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: places with a large immigrant community. He went to Montreal and, 82 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: using the name Charles Bianchi, got a job at Banco's Russi, 83 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: which was a bank catering to the city's Italian immigrant population. 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: Many banks with a predominantly Italian clientele invested in Italian 85 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: securities that paid three percent interest. The bank would pass 86 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: two thirds of that on to customers on their interest 87 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: bearing accounts, while using the rest to cover expenses and 88 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: turn a profit. But Luigi Zarossi, owner of Banco Zarosi, 89 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: was offering customers six percent interest, tripling the amount of 90 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: interest that customers were seeing on their accounts. Might have 91 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: seemed too good to be true, and it was so. 92 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: Rossi did not have some kind of secret way to 93 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: get more money from the bank's investments. He was just 94 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: paying established account holders interest by skimming money from the 95 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: deposits that people made when they opened up new accounts 96 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: and from money that customers were trying to send to 97 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: their family back in Italy through the bank. Of course, 98 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: this was both criminal and unsustainable, and as it started 99 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: to unravel, Zarosi fled to Mexico. At first, investigators thought 100 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: this scheme was Zerosi's work alone, but then one of 101 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: the bank's employees took his own life and another was 102 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: arrested after being accused of stealing from a customer. Even 103 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: as investigators started digging into more people who worked at 104 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: the bank, Ponzi stayed in Montreal, looking after Zarossi's wife 105 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: and daughters and purportedly helping with the investigation, but then 106 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: not totally clear why he decided it was time to leave. 107 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: On August eight, Ponzi stole a check from the back 108 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: of a check book while he was visiting the offices 109 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: of Canadian warehousing company. He made out the check for 110 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: four hundred twenty three dollars and fifty eight cents, and 111 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: he forged the signature of the company's office manager, Damien Bournier. 112 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,679 Speaker 1: Ponzi cashed the check at a bank and then spent 113 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: pretty much all the money on the clothing and supplies 114 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: that he would need to get out of Montreal and 115 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: set himself up somewhere else. Meanwhile, a clerk at the 116 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: bank became suspicious of the out of sequence check and 117 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: the signature on it, and contacted the authorities Ponzi was 118 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: arrested and immediately confessed, and he feigned epilepsy so that 119 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: he would be housed in the prison infirmary rather than 120 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: in a regular cell until he stood trial. Ponzi was convicted, 121 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: he spent the next twenty months incarcerated at sam Vincent 122 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: DePaul Penitentiary. While he was there, he worked his way 123 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: up from being a clerk in the prison blacksmiths shop 124 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: to working in the wardens office, and he wrote to 125 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: his mother about what was going on, although in his 126 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: account this was all kind of a misunderstanding and he 127 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 1: was really distinguishing himself in his work with the warden. 128 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: Just a couple of weeks after being released from prison 129 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen ten, Ponzi headed back to the US by 130 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: train in the company of five other Italian men. At 131 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: this point, US immigration law banned immigration from China, and 132 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: while there weren't limits or quotas for other countries yet, 133 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: various so called undesirables were also banned, including anarchists, sex workers, 134 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: people with contagious diseases, and people likely to become a 135 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: public charge. None of these five men on the train 136 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: had valid identification papers with them, and none of them 137 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: spoke English, so when officials boarded the train near the U. 138 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: S border, they questioned Ponzi. Ponzi said he did not 139 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: know any of these men that he was with. He 140 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: said he had run into an old friend at the 141 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: train station, and the friend had asked him to watch 142 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: over this group, basically as a favor. It's not clear 143 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: whether this was something Palsy actively planned or whether he 144 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: took any money for doing it, but that old friend 145 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: was really the man who had fled during the Bank 146 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: os Arrassi collapse. After being accused of stealing from a customer, 147 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: Ponzi was charged with smuggling quote undesirable aliens into the US. 148 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: He took a plea deal, thinking it he'd just have 149 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 1: to pay a small fine. Instead, he was sentenced to 150 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: two years in federal prison and find five hundred dollars. 151 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: He once again worked as a cleric while incarcerated, including 152 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: translating other people's mail so the warden could read it. 153 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: He served as full sentence plus an additional month because 154 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: he did not have the money to pay his fine. 155 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: Once he was out of prison, Ponzi again worked at 156 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: a range of jobs, mainly in the southern US. While 157 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: working in a mining camp in Alabama. He donated some 158 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: of his skin to a nurse named Pearl Gossip, who 159 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: was badly burned when a gasoline fueled sterilizer that she 160 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: was using exploded. Ponzi reportedly donated almost two hundred square 161 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: inches of his skin over the course of three surgeries, 162 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: requiring several months to recover and contracting pleurisy in the process, 163 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: and also expecting nothing in return. This almost certain we 164 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: saved Gosset's life, Especially in the context of the rest 165 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: of Ponzi's life. This story seems incredible enough that Tracy 166 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: went on a little bit of a quest to try 167 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: to corroborate it, and it does seem to have really happened. 168 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: Gossett's initial injury was covered in the local West Blocked 169 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: in Alabama newspaper, and Ponzi's skin donation was covered in 170 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: the Tampa Times. On December, he apparently sent a clipping 171 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: of this or another article on his donation to the 172 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: warden in Atlanta, who showed it to a reporter for 173 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: the Boston Globe. After Ponzi became famous, Okay, what I 174 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: kept finding references to this and nobody was providing any details, 175 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: and I was like for real though, because this sounds 176 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: like something somebody would say to aggrandize themselves. I'm a 177 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: great guy. Yeah, there are these news reports about it. 178 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: We will talk more about when Ponzy got to Boston 179 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: after we take a quick sponsor break. Charles Ponzi moved 180 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: to Boston in nineteen seventeen, and around that time he 181 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: seems to have settled on that name rather than going 182 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: by Carlo or using a pseudonym like Bianchie. He had 183 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: been working with a company that sold freight vehicles overseas, 184 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: and being trilingual came in pretty handy there. When he 185 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: got to Boston, he started working as a clerk at JR. 186 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: Pool Company, which was an import export firm, another good 187 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: place for somebody who spoke three languages. In Boston, he 188 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 1: met Rose Nico, who he married in nineteen eighteen. Ponzi's 189 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: mother was apparently worried that he wasn't being honest with 190 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: her about the time he had spent in prison, so 191 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: during their engagement, Emmelde wrote Rose a letter explaining everything. 192 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: Of course, that was the explanation that she had heard 193 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: from her son, which made him sound wrongfully accused. Rose 194 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: already thought really well of Charles. She knew about things 195 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: like his skin donation and his attention to the Zerosi 196 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: family during the Bonco zar Rossi scandal. She carried on 197 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: with their relationship, and she did not let Charles know 198 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: that she knew because she didn't want him to think 199 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: she thought any less of him. Rose's father ran a 200 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: produce business, which Charles took over, but that business quickly failed. 201 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: In some accounts, Ponzi ran it into the ground through 202 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: sheer mismanagement, but in others, this business was already really floundering, 203 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: and Ponzi was basically making a last ditch effort to 204 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 1: try to save it. In Ponzi was arrested for stealing 205 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: more than five thousand pounds of cheese, but his name 206 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: was misspelled on the warrant. This was not a case 207 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: of the reflection of various spellings of Ponzi that he 208 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: had used over time. There was just a you in 209 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: place of the end. That misspelling led to a series 210 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: of delays, and eventually this whole thing fizzled out. Ponzi 211 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: then tried to start up an international business directory called 212 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: trey Ter's Guide, which would make its money through ads. 213 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: Another good thing for somebody to make use of their 214 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: three languages. Doing he applied for a startup loan at 215 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: Hanover Trust Bank, but they turned him down, and so 216 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: this effort also fizzled out. But then someone in Spain 217 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: wrote Ponzi to ask for a copy of the Trader's Guide, 218 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: not realizing that it had already folded, and according to 219 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: Ponzi's account, that person had included an international reply coupon. 220 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: These are not used much anymore, and many nations no 221 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: longer issue them at all, but the International Universal Postal 222 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: Union established these in nineteen o six to make it 223 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: easier for people in its member countries to correspond with 224 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: one another. If you wrote to someone who was living 225 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: in another country, you could include a coupon, and then 226 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: the recipient could exchange that coupon for the postage that 227 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: they would need for their reply. When these coupons were 228 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: first created, their value was roughly equivalent no matter where 229 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: they were bought and no matter where they were redeemed. 230 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: But after World War One the value of various European 231 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: currencies fell, and Ponzi realized he could take advantage of 232 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: these exchange rates. He could buy reply coupons in countries 233 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: where the currency was weaker than in the US, and 234 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: then he could sell them in the US for a profit. 235 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: Pondz rented office space at twenty seven School Street in 236 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: Boston in December of nineteen nine, opening a business that 237 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: he called the Securities Exchange Company. People would give him 238 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: their money and he would give them a promissory note 239 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: entitling them to their money plus interest when it matured. 240 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: He guaranteed a fifty percent profit after forty five days 241 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: and a one profit after ninety days. That first, he 242 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: needed to convince people to participate in this. He owed 243 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: a man named Joseph Daniels money for office furniture he 244 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: had bought, and when he fell behind on the payments, 245 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: he offered Daniels the opportunity to invest. He promised him 246 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: a hundred percent return over just two months. Ponzi recruited 247 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: investors from Boston's predominantly Italian North End, many of whom 248 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: were just ordinary people with a little bit of money 249 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: they wanted to invest. Or were people who trusted Ponzi 250 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: with their entire life savings. As words spread and his 251 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: business grew, Ponzi hired a secretary and a sales team 252 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: and opened satellite offices in other parts of the northeastern US. 253 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: He posted notices in multiple languages that started with phrases 254 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: like do you want to get rich quick? He boasted 255 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: about having a whole network of people in Europe who 256 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: were buying coupons on his behalf and a confidential method 257 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: of exchanging them for cash in the US. As the 258 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: money rolled in, Ponzi started making investments of his own. 259 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: He bought a house in Lexington, Massachusetts for thirty nine 260 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. That was nine thousand dollars in cash, plus 261 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: a twenty dollar certificate from the securities exchanged company that 262 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: was payable for the rest of it six weeks later. 263 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: The seller's attorney seems to have been a little nervous 264 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: about this arrangement and got Pons to also use a 265 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars certificate of deposit from an actual regular 266 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: bank as a backup. Okay, as an aside. I'm trying 267 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: to understand this. Yeah, So it's nine thousand dollars in 268 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: cash and then the twenty thousand dollars certificate, and then 269 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: the idea was that it would make enough profit that 270 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: it would get to thirty k Yes, okay, yes, Okay, 271 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: I just had this moment where I'm like, I don't 272 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: understand the math um. Ponzi also invested in other businesses, 273 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: including his former employer JR. Pool Company, the Napoli Macaroni Company, 274 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: a construction company, and American Telephone. He bought City of 275 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: Boston bonds and bought shares in multiple Boston banks, including 276 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: a massive investment in Hanover Trust Bank, which had turned 277 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: him down for that earlier loan. They also indulged in 278 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: various luxuries, like buying a car and then upgrading that 279 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: to a limousine with a hired driver. He brought his 280 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: mother over from Italy. He also loaned people money, and 281 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: he made donations to various charities. On July four, the 282 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: Boston Post reported that Joseph Daniels had sued Ponzi for 283 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: one million dollars. Although Ponzi publicly said this suit had 284 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: no merit, He started opening bank accounts under false names 285 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: to try to hide his money in case Daniels might 286 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: be successful. This report also led to some of his 287 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: customers asking for their money back, but this was temporary, 288 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: and not long after the news broke of a lawsuit, 289 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 1: he was bringing in a million dollars a week. By 290 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: late July, newspapers were reporting on this Italian man with 291 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: the office in on School Street and a supposedly full 292 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: proof way to get rich quick. An article in the 293 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: Boston Post on July twent fourth of nine twenty outlined 294 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: Ponzi's guaranteed returns that we talked about earlier, and also 295 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: noted that at least as of that moment, nothing seemed 296 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: to be illegal about this. Two police officers who had 297 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: been sent to investigate had wound up investing themselves. The 298 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: Post also reported that Ponzi's estimated worth had grown to 299 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: about eight point five million dollars, up from essentially zero 300 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: the previous October. In yes, he may as well be 301 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: a basillionaire at that point. In this article, Ponzi described 302 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: what he was doing as a sure thing, one that 303 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: he could continue to do for as long as exchange 304 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: rates made stamps bought for a dollar overseas worth four 305 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: dollars in the US. He was quoted as describing that 306 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: first burst of inspiration with the reply coupon from Spain quote. 307 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: I looked the coupon over I thought about its value. 308 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: On the other side, I said to myself, if I 309 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: can buy one of these stamps in Spain for one 310 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: cent and cash it for six cents in the United States, 311 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: just because the rate of money exchanges higher here. Why 312 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: can't I buy hundreds, thousands, millions of these coupons. I'll 313 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: make five cents on every one of this particular kind, 314 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: so why not. This article did raise some doubts about 315 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: whether Ponzi could continue to do this long term. There 316 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: was an international postal conference schedule to take place in 317 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: Spain that might adjust how these coupons worked, and for 318 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: the most part, Italy and France had both already stopped 319 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: issuing them, but Ponzi expressed that he was really confident 320 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: that he could keep this going. The next day, the 321 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: Post reported that Arrival Get Rich Quick Company had opened 322 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: up next door to Ponzi, the old colony for an 323 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: exchange company, which had also hired a ballyhoo Man like 324 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: at a side show to draw in customers. Even without 325 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: the ballyhoo Man, accounts described the area around Ponzi's office 326 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: as completely chaotic, thronged with people who wanted in on 327 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: the deal. The Post also reported that more investigations were 328 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: getting underway into Ponzi's business, including a collaboration among international authorities. Uh, 329 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: This whole hiring a bally hu Man to holler at 330 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: people in the street to kind of invest cracks me up. Also, 331 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: Ponzi found the whole ballyhu Man situation very annoying. They've 332 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: out posied me. Yeah. So. On the the Post print 333 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: ed quotes from Clarence W. Barron, who at the time 334 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: was running the Boston News Bureau and would later establish 335 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: Baron's Business and Financial weekly name folks might recognize. Baron 336 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: said that it was true that differences in postal rates 337 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: could make it possible to sell reply coupons for a profit, 338 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: but it was really only possible to do that on 339 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: a very small scale. Baron also raised some very pointed questions, 340 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: like if Ponzi was promising investors return, then why was 341 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: he investing his own money in things like real estate 342 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: and government bonds that did not even guarantee a ten 343 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: percent return. An editor's note in the Financial section that 344 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: same day noted that the difference between Spanish and American 345 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: currency had never been as large as Ponzi was describing, 346 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: and wondered how long European governments would allow their reply 347 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: coupons to be used for a purpose, it was clearly 348 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: not their intent. As a side note, the headline on 349 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: the front page of the Post on July read quote 350 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: questions the motive behind Ponzi scheme, And that's one of 351 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: the first uses of Ponzi scheme in writing, if not 352 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: the first. The Oxford English Dictionary actually cites a New 353 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: York Tribune article from a few days later than this. Soon, 354 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: U S District Attorney Daniel J. Gallagher was starting a 355 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: federal investigation. Attorney General J. Weston Allen was heading up 356 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: the investigation for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Suffolk County District 357 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: Attorney Joseph C. Pettier was also involved, as well as 358 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: the Boston Police Department, various New England bankers, and Bank 359 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: Commissioner Joseph Allen. On July Palz agreed not to take 360 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: any more money until audits and investigations into his business 361 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: were done, and he also agreed that he would keep 362 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: offices open so that he could pay people whose notes 363 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: had matured, or to refund money to people who wanted 364 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: to get their money back. D A. Joseph C. Pettier 365 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: characterized Ponzi is totally willing to do this and very 366 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: friendly about the whole situation. Ponzi's branch offices and other 367 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: cities and states started closing down as well. In news 368 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: reports from that day, US District Attorney Daniel J. Gallagher 369 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: was quoted as saying that the US government was the 370 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: largest user of reply coupons in the world, and yet quote, 371 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: the entire issue for the past twelve months of our 372 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: government is only a small fraction of the entire number 373 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: which must have been handled by Ponzi to account for 374 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: the tremendous income which he claims to have made since 375 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: December last The US was reportedly using only about two 376 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: hundred thousand stamps a year, which sold for six cents each, 377 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: so it just didn't add up that Ponzi was using 378 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: them to bring in millions of dollars. On July twenty, 379 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: after these and other news reports, there was a huge 380 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: run on Ponzi's offices in Boston as worried people tried 381 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: to get their money back. People fainted in the heat 382 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: as they waited. A crowd smashed through a glass paneled 383 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: door as they tried to get in. Ponzi reportedly returned 384 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: a million dollars in a single day. Meanwhile, the Boston 385 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: Post ran a report from the Boston News Bureau that 386 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: said there was just no indication that international reply coupons 387 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: were being moved with anywhere near the volume that Ponzi's 388 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: scheme would have required, and that there was no increase 389 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: anywhere in how many stamps were being read. Aamed Ponzi 390 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: was publicly dismissive of all of this, joking with reporters 391 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: and investigators and announcing plans to start a charitable Ponzi foundation. 392 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: Although earlier reports had described Ponzi as charming and cheerful 393 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: and happy to suspend new investments until the investigations were over, 394 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: by July twenty nine, the Boston Post was quoting him 395 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: as saying that the US was butting in on his 396 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: business and investigating where it had no cause to a 397 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: massive crowd of people wanting their money back jammed the 398 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: alley adjacent to his office, and Ponzi brought them coffee 399 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: and sandwiches at lunch. Meanwhile, speculators also made their way 400 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: through the crowd, trying to buy notes off of people 401 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: who wanted to cash them in. On July, auditor Edwin L. 402 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: Pride started going through Ponzi's records. Meanwhile, the Postmaster of 403 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: New York was quoted as saying the entire world supply 404 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: of postage coupons would not be enough to bring in 405 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: the money Ponzi claimed he had made on them. That 406 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: would require at least one hundred sixty million coupons, but 407 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: in New York, for example, there were only twenty seven 408 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: thousand of them on hand. Meanwhile, Ponzi announced that he 409 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: had been offered ten million dollars to sell the business, 410 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 1: but hadn't decided what he wanted to do. Then, on 411 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: the thirty one, he announced that he was suing Charles W. 412 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: Baron for libel and also thinking about running for office 413 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: once all of this was over. Although multiple people pointed 414 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: out that what he said he was doing was just 415 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: not possible, he still maintained that he had a way, 416 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: but it would be unethical to breach the confidentiality of 417 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: his European partners by explaining it. He also promised that 418 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: he was going to donate a hundred thousand dollars to 419 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: the Italian children's home. At this point, so many people 420 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: were saying this doesn't end up, but there wasn't yet 421 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: conclusive proof of it not adding up, but that I'll 422 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: change on August second, and we'll talk about that after 423 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: a sponsor break. On August second, nineteen twenty, a front 424 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: page headline of the Boston Post read quote declares Ponzi 425 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: is now hopelessly insolvent. What followed was an article written 426 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: by William McMasters, who Ponzi had hired to do pr 427 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: for him. McMasters had recognized that if Ponzi was the 428 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: real deal, he would be a huge asset to McMaster's 429 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: publicity career, but if pons was ripping people off, McMasters 430 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: wanted to stop it. This article that he wrote for 431 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: the Post alleged that Ponzi was two million dollars in debt. 432 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: Without factoring in all the interests that was due on 433 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: the Securities Exchange Companies notes when they matured. With that 434 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: interest included, he was four point five million dollars in debt. 435 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: He also said that Ponzi had sent no money abroad 436 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: over the last sixty days, and that he had not 437 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: deposited any money in any bank from anything that came 438 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: from overseas. He had only deposited money that had been 439 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: given to him by his investors. McMaster's article also spelled 440 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: out just how massively Ponzi's scheme had grown, from issuing 441 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: two hundred notes today on June eight to two thousand, 442 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: nine hundred notes the day before he agreed to stop 443 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: taking people's money. Palsy still definitely had supporters at this point, though. 444 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: The Post reported in exchange with an anonymous bystander on 445 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: the street who shouted out to Ponzi that he was 446 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: the greatest Italian in history. Ponzi said that he was 447 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: the third greatest because Columbus had discovered America and Marconi 448 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: had discovered wireless, which that's a sentence to unpass. The 449 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: bystanders shouted back at him, According to the Post's report, 450 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: quote you discovered money. The area around Ponzi's Boston office 451 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: was still swarmed with people trying to get their money back. 452 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: The Department of Justice got involved in the investigation, with 453 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: past podcast subject Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer getting personally involved. 454 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: The Boston News Bureau revealed that the entire previous year's 455 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: sale of postal coupons had totaled less than sixty thou dollars. 456 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: At one point. During all of this, Ponzi disappeared for 457 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: several hours leading people to wonder if he had fled. Then, 458 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: on August eleven, the Boston Post printed an article under 459 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: the headline Canadian pons served jail term. Montreal Police jail 460 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: warden and others declare that Charles Ponzy of Boston and 461 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: Charles Palmsy of Montreal, who was sentenced to two and 462 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: a half years in jail for forgery on Italian bank, 463 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: are one and same man. The next day, Ponzi was 464 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: arrested and admitted his previous forgery conviction and that he 465 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: didn't have the money to repay all these investors. Four 466 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: officers of the old Colony Foreign Exchange Company, which was 467 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: that competitor across the way with the Ballyhu man, They 468 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: were all arrested at about the same time as well. 469 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: Soon Ponzi's time in federal prison in Atlanta was public 470 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: knowledge as well, and his so called business had collapsed, 471 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: with auditors concluding that there was no overseas investment in 472 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: reply coupons. Although the word scheme had been used in 473 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: a lot of reporting, many newspapers were describing what was 474 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: happening as a bubble. The Boston Globe printed up a 475 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: list of other big bubble collapses, including the South Sea 476 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: and Mississippi bubble collapses that we talked about on the 477 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: show recently, and the fraud carried out by past podcast 478 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: subject Cassie chab Wick. Thousands of people lost their money 479 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: due to Ponzi scheme, and the Hanover Trust Bank collapsed. 480 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: Throughout all of this, Rose stood by her husband. She 481 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: told reporters that she loved him and would support him, 482 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: and then along the way during all this, Charles learned 483 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: that she had known about his prior criminal history for 484 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: their entire marriage and had never said anything about it. 485 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: Charles Ponzi was charged with eighty six counts of mail fraud. 486 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to five years in 487 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: federal prison. His incarceration started on December twelfth, nineteen twenty, 488 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: and he was paroled after forty months. In nineteen twenty one, 489 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: While Ponzi was incarcerated, the Boston Post was awarded the 490 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize for Public Service Quote for its exposure of 491 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: the operations of Charles Ponzi by a series of articles 492 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: which finally led to his arrest. During those months of reporting, 493 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: the Post had listed Edwin A. Grozier as a publisher 494 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: and editor of the paper, but Edwin was actually unwell. 495 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: His son, Richard had largely taken his place and had 496 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: reported most of this story. Edwin insisted that Richard had 497 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: been running the newspaper this whole time, and that he 498 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: deserved all the credit for the Pulitzer. William McMasters claimed 499 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: that Ponzi still owed him money for his pr work 500 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: and sued him for a little over four thousand dollars. 501 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: From prison, Ponzi filed a suit of his own, claiming 502 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: that Masters owed him money for being paid to place 503 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: advertisements that never ran. Ponzi won both of those suits. 504 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: As Ponzi served his sentence on these federal fraud charges, 505 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: the Commonwealth of Massachusetts tried to press charges of its own, 506 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: although Ponzi's lawyers argued that this was double jeopardy. He 507 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: was again tried, convicted, in this time sentence to seven 508 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: to nine years in prison. While out on bail during 509 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: an appeal, ponz went to Florida and sold a bunch 510 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: of people what he claimed was prime Florida real estate 511 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: but was really swampland. He was found guilty of fraud 512 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: in that scheme and sentenced to a year of hard 513 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: labor at Florida State Prison while out on bail appealing 514 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: that conviction. He attempted to flee by boat, but he 515 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: was caught, arrested, and sent back to Massachusetts to serve 516 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: his sentence there. He was released from prison in nineteen 517 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: thirty four and deported back to Italy on October seven 518 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: of that year. There's various brief write ups of this 519 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: that make it kind of sound like authorities suddenly realized 520 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: that he had never become a citizen, but like that 521 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: had been part of the reporting of the whole initial crime. 522 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: So I think it was more that they were just like, 523 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: all right, time to be done. They may have realized 524 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: that that was a fast way to end their efforts 525 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: in the matter. There was talk of Rose joining Charles 526 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: in Italy after he was deported, sort of with the 527 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: idea that once he got himself set up there, she 528 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: might come, but has never happened, and they ultimately divorced 529 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty six. They kept writing to one another 530 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: after their divorce, though even after all of that, she 531 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: seems to have genuinely loved him and thought the best 532 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 1: of him. She got a job keeping the books at 533 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: the Coconut Grove nightclub, which burned down in a horrific 534 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: and deadly fire in ninety two. She was not there 535 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: when that happened because she had gone home early that day. 536 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: She remarried in nineteen fifty six and died in at 537 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: the age of Details are contradictory about the last year's 538 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,959 Speaker 1: of Ponzi's life. It's possible that he worked for an 539 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: Italian airline and that was how he made his way 540 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: to Brazil, which is where he spent the end of 541 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: his life. He died in a charity hospital in Rio 542 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: de Janeiro on January eighth, ninety nine, was only enough 543 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: money to pay for his own burial expenses. Although this 544 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: kind of fraud is synonymous with Ponzi's name today, he 545 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: was not the first or only person to pretend to 546 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: invest people's money but really just pay the earlier investors 547 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: out of money that was brought in from new marks. 548 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: It's been described as robbing Peter to pay Paul, which 549 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: is a phrase that has roots as far back as 550 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: the fifteenth century. Documented schemes like this that pre date 551 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: Ponzi include one that was carried out by Sarah Howe, 552 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: who opened the Ladies Deposit Bank in Boston in eighteen 553 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 1: seventy nine. She was arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned multiple 554 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: times as she ran this same scheme in multiple cities. 555 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: She would get out of prison and go somewhere else 556 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: and do it over again. William Miller, who was known 557 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: as five Miller because of the massive returns that he promised, 558 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: launched the Franklin Syndicate in Brooklyn in eight nine. This 559 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: was the same basic schemes what Ponsi was doing, and 560 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: newspapers actually got quotes from him during their reporting on Ponzi. 561 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: Sometimes the term Ponzi scheme is also used interchangeably with 562 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: pyramid scheme, although that term can also have slightly different nuance. 563 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: Both of these schemes involved bringing in more and more investors, 564 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 1: but a pyramid scheme typically has more of a hierarchy, 565 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: with layers of investors below the person or people at 566 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: the top, who are usually the only ones making money. 567 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: Ponzi's scheme made enormous headlines when it happened, but it 568 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: really wasn't until after the Great Depression that federal regulators 569 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: in the US really took steps to try to prevent 570 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: this kind of scam. But that was also part of 571 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: regulations meant to try to prevent another catastrophe like the depression. 572 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: The Securities Exchange Commission was established in nineteen thirty four, 573 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: and newly passed laws required most businesses and individuals who 574 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: were selling securities to register with the SEC and to 575 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: abide by newly created regulations. And then the Investment Advisors 576 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 1: Act of nineteen forty and Investment Company Act of nineteen 577 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: forty similarly require most companies that are advising people about 578 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: the purchasing of securities to register with sec also to 579 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 1: follow various regulations about doing so. That has not stopped 580 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: ponzi schemes entirely, though not in the US or in 581 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 1: the rest of the world. For example, ponzi schemes became 582 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: a massive problem in Albania in the nineteen nineties, with 583 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: as much as two thirds of the population investing in them, 584 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: leading to rioting when those schemes collapsed. And of course 585 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: there was Bernie made Off, who ran what is described 586 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,240 Speaker 1: as the largest ponzi scheme in history, estimated at almost 587 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: sixty five billion dollars, which was discovered in two thousand eight. Uh, 588 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: there's still a lot of ways that people are able 589 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: to defraud other people. As a random side note, Ponzi's 590 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: mansion in Lexington, Massachusetts that he bought for thirty nine 591 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. That's still there. It last sold in one 592 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: for three point five million dollars. Ponzi. Uh, do you 593 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: have a listener mail? I do have listener mail. Um. 594 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: We have started to get lots of listener mail about 595 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: our episode about rabies. Uh. This is one of the 596 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: rabies emails. And I love the title because the title 597 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 1: is my own bat rabies story from a veterinarian. Don't worry, 598 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: it is not a bad story. Um. So Liz wrote, Hello, 599 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 1: Holly and Tracy. I was so excited when I saw 600 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: you guys did an episode on rabies. I'm a small 601 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: animal veterinarian, and of course I give thousands of rabies 602 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: vaccinations a year. I'm excited to hear Holly's bat rabies 603 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: story on Friday. But I have my own. About three 604 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: years ago, my husband was out of town and my 605 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: three year old daughter was sleeping in bed with me. 606 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: We were woken up in the middle of the night 607 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: by one of my cats leaping across the room. I 608 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: turned on the light to a bat lying around my room. 609 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: I moved my daughter out of the room and called 610 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: to my dad, who lives with us. As I checked 611 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: on my daughter and my son, who was asleep in 612 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,439 Speaker 1: another room, my dad, unbeknownst to me, let the bat 613 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: out of the window, and it's not widely known, So 614 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: hopefully you will tell your listeners about this part. If 615 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: a person is asleep, we're too young to accurately tell you. 616 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: If they were bitten, and we're in the same room 617 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: as about, it's considered an exposure. This is because bat 618 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: bites can be so small they do not draw blood 619 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: or leave a visible mark. You can be sleeping and 620 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: not even know you have been bitten. Because my dad 621 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: let the bat out, it could not be tested, so 622 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: my two small children had to go through rabies exposure shots. 623 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: Since I'm a veterinarian, I'm vaccinated, so I just got 624 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: a booster. I was very lucky that my pediatrician knew 625 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: about this and knew the protocols needed. I cannot say 626 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: the same for the e er physicians, who unfortunately were 627 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: not up to date on their rabies protocols. My kids 628 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: are older now and do not even remember the series 629 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: of shots they got, but it gives me a great 630 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: personal story to tell my clients who don't understand why 631 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: they're dogs and cats still need rabies vaccinations if they 632 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: are mainly inside animals. I've included several pictures of my 633 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: zoo to pay my pet tax. I currently have four cats. 634 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,720 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna list off all of their names because 635 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: this is quite a lot of animals. I currently have 636 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: four cats, four dogs, three horses, and a guinea pig. Uh. 637 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: There is a theme to all of those names. I 638 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: did not read them all, but they all they all. 639 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: They all have alcohol related names, which I find very lovely. Uh. Liz, ps, 640 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: I have a suggestion that is hopefully on your list 641 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: of topics for the future, the Libby Prison breaker. Just 642 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: Libby Prison. This is a close personal topics since my 643 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: four times great grandfather was one of the escaped prisoners 644 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: and even wrote a book that I have a reprinted copy. Uh. So, 645 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: thank you list so much for this email. It's so 646 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: funny to me. As we got this email on Tuesday, 647 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: May the tenth. The Rabies episode came out Monday May 648 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: the ninth, Wednesday, May the eleven, the episode that included 649 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: the Libby prison break. Uh and then, of course the 650 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: Friday episode that UH talked more about rabies, exposures and 651 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: things that also was not out yet. When Liz send 652 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: this email, thank you so much, Liz, um, I feel 653 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: like we made the point somewhere that, yeah, bat bites 654 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: can be so small that it can be hard to 655 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 1: know if you were personally bitten. Way back, forever ago, 656 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: there was an episode of the podcast Judge John Hodgment 657 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: about these brothers that were living in a house that 658 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,919 Speaker 1: they had gotten for some ridiculously small amount of money 659 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: through like a tax sale or in a state so 660 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: something like that, and it was infested with bats and 661 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: their method of dealing with the bats was not a 662 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: safe method, and John Hodgeman was like, seriously, you have 663 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 1: got to do something about these bats, because if they're 664 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 1: in your house while you're asleep and you get bitten 665 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: by when you will not necessarily know. Um so I 666 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: did not know that that that means that if you're 667 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: sleeping and there's a bat in the room, that that 668 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: that can count as an exposure. But yes, yeah, this 669 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons why bats are great. Leave 670 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,959 Speaker 1: them alone, do not mess with UH. If you would 671 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: like to write to us about this or any other 672 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: podcast where history podcast that I heart radio dot com. 673 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: We're all over social media at miss in History and 674 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: that is where you will find our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, 675 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: in Instagram. And you can subscribe to our show on 676 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: the I heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 677 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of 678 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 679 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 680 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.