1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome to the first episode of Bloomberg Intelligence 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Talking Transports Podcasts. I'm your host, Lee Klasgau, Senior freight 3 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: transportation logistics analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence, which is Bloomberg's in 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: house research arm We're delighted to have Andrew Boyle as 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: our first guest on the podcast. Andrew wears many hats 6 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: as co president of Boyle Transportation and the Vice chairman 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: of the American Trucking Associations, or as most people know 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: it as ATA. Boyle Transportation is a subsidiary of and 9 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: Lower Healthcare Group, which is listed on the Toronto Stock 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: Exchange under the ticker A and D on the terminal. 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: Boyle Transportation is a trucking company that specializes on the 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: biotech pharmaceutical industries, as well as government and defense sectors. 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: For those that don't know ATA, it's the largest trucking 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: trade association in North America. Its members span lesson truckload 15 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: and truckload markets, which serve all sectors of the economy. 16 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: Andrew earned an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg School of 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Management and got his undergraduate graduate degree at voat In College, 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: where his academic performance was undistinguished and his athletic career 19 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: was underwhelming at least that's according to his official bio. 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: So that's that's that's not me talking. That's uh, that's 21 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: that's Andrew talking. So Andrew, welcome to Talking Transport. 22 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 2: Great to be with you, Lee, and it's particularly since 23 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 2: it's the inaugural one. You know, I've enjoyed a lot 24 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: of your content over the years. It's fun to talk 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: directly with you. 26 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's been great. Ready to get to know 27 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: you over the years. And you know, I learned something 28 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: else in your bio, and I guess you're the listeners 29 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 1: here on the podcast might be a little disappointed because 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: we're just using audio. But according to your bio, you 31 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: are a three time winner of KGC's fourth Best Looking 32 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: Man Award. 33 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: Is that true? Yes? And you know I consider this, 34 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: aside from my family, my greatest achievement and lifely. So 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: I go on a guy's trip with about fifteen or 36 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: twenty guys each year. We play golf and then typically 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: the hostess of a restaurant or some other distinguished guests 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 2: come in and evaluate who is the fourth best looking 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: man in the group, because three are just one was 40 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: a child model, one has a Latin thing going on, tall, 41 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: dark and handsome, and other guys just obscenely good looking, 42 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: so they're disqualified, and then you know, the judge gets 43 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: to choose from among the remaining pool, and as a 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: three time winner, you know clearly there's a pattern there, 45 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: but unfortunately my wife does not recognize it as a 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: third party validation whatsoever. 47 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: Well, well, I guess I'd hate to see the fifth 48 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: best looking guy. So let's turn our attention to transportation, 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: because that's why we're all here. How did you get 50 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: your start in this strucking industry? 51 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 2: Well, as you know, one of the many neat things 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: about our industry is that many of the stories and 53 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: many of the companies start from very humble beginnings. And 54 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: my oldest brother, Mark is my partner and co president. 55 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 2: Our parents were hustlers, did not finish college. Our old 56 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: man was in the army and then the state police, 57 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: and then was selling for another was selling for an 58 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: LTL company he kind of late sixties, early seventies, and 59 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: then all of a sudden saw an opportunity that his 60 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: company did not want to pursue. So then, as you know, 61 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: at the time, the industry operating authorities for truck lines 62 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: was regulated, so it was akin to a taxi medallion. 63 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 2: So he bought his operating authority off for somebody in 64 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: the classifieds in nineteen seventy one and kind of grew 65 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: very gradually locally regionally, and we for many years in 66 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: Mark and I grew up working in many different capacities. 67 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: Worked here after college for several years. We each went 68 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: to graduate school, worked elsewhere. I was an investment banker 69 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: for a period of time, and then about twenty years ago, 70 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: we returned and bought our folks out over time and 71 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: they accelerated out of the parking lot. So it's really 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: what it really is inspiring is in my role with ATA, 73 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: some slated in about a month's time to become chairman 74 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: after my great friend Dan van Alstein finishes his term. 75 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: Is you learned that this story is told thousands and 76 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 2: thousands of times around the country from hustlers, true entrepreneurs 77 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 2: and then ultimately kind of to become a more professional organization. Yeah. 78 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: No, it's great stories. Even that the large publicly traded 79 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: companies they all started one person in one truck, so 80 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: it's you know, a great story to see your family's 81 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: success in the industry. You know, how would you describe 82 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: the current state of the trucking industry in North America 83 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: from your perspective? And I understand because the industries that 84 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: you serve you might be a little less volatile than 85 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: so on that's running, you know, retail routes. 86 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, so that not specific to our company, 87 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: but the macro environment. Certainly, we had extraordinary demand in 88 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: tight inventories at the same time for the last couple 89 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: of years, which is kind of a recipe for extraordinary 90 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: transportation and logistics demand. So that has abated and there's 91 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,239 Speaker 2: kind of a little bit of a whipsaw. So general 92 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: freight environment has has been muted and kind of down 93 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: a fair bit this year and we're getting back to 94 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: kind of a more normalized environment. 95 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's you know, one of the large 96 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 1: publicly traded trucking companies, Shaby Hunt. At a recent Morgan 97 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: Stanley conference, you know, Shelley Simpson mentioned that they felt 98 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: that the restocking cycle heads or de stocking I should 99 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: say cycle, has kind of come to a conclusion, which 100 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: obviously would be a great thing for trucking demand going 101 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: into peak. You know, would you talk to either members 102 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: at the ATA or you know your own customers, and 103 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: again you're you're in a more defensive environment. Are they 104 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: talking how are they talking about peak season this year? 105 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: Sure, well, I wouldn't even say specific to peak season. 106 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 2: But when you have the long view. For those folks 107 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 2: who just got into this the market in the last 108 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: few years, then they have a distorted kind of vision 109 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 2: perhaps or a distorted perspective. But when you have the 110 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: long view and have kind of been through a few 111 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: different cycles, you understand that you have to take the 112 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: opportunity when demand falls a little bit to maybe improve 113 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: improve processes. Is invest in technology, improve training, that sort 114 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: of stuff, get better and take the opportunity to get better. 115 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: And also with respect to customer relationships, the way we 116 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: approach things at our company, when we're hiring people, we 117 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: want a long term mutually beneficial relationship. When we do 118 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: business with vendors, we say to them we want a 119 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: long term mutually beneficial relationship. There's investment on both sides. 120 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: And finally, with clients and customers, we approach them with 121 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: kind of the same theme. We're looking for a long 122 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: term mutually beneficial relationship. So we're investing. We're deploying in 123 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: many cases millions of dollars of capital equipment for a 124 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: particular customer. We're employing highly skilled, professional people, and we're 125 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: investing in the technology in our case, you know, the 126 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: proprietary software that we develop specific for the clients. So 127 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: when you have that kind of mutual respect for the 128 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 2: long term, you're willing to invest, the client sees that 129 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: you're investing for their benefit, and you have that kind 130 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: of fair and reasonable pricing relationship over time. However, there 131 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: are participants in the market, whether they're owners of cargo shippers, 132 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: could be third party intermediaries who seek to kind of 133 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: when there's different points in cycle, they seek to extract 134 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: their pond to flesh and treat it more as a transaction. 135 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: And what my peers and friends say is in the industry, 136 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: if they in the same with us, when we get 137 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: that message from the client or customer that they are 138 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 2: shifting toward a transactional environment or approach, well then you're 139 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 2: going to have this approach from us that we're designating 140 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: you as a transaction customer, not a relationship customer. And 141 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: that means, yeah, you want your pound of flesh now. Well, 142 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: we're going to do it at the other point in 143 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: the cycle. And we at our company, we try to 144 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 2: stay away from that where you know, that's too volatile 145 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: for both parties. I can't imagine being a purchase, you know, 146 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: kind of a purchaser of transportation having to deal with 147 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 2: like twenty percent volatility year to year. Presumably this kind 148 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 2: of three percent five percent fair and reasonable increase over 149 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: time is a better approach. Yeah. 150 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: No, I mean, the folks that are operating in the 151 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: spot truckload marker right now, are you know, feeling a 152 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: lot of pain because of you know, that's that's the 153 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: market that there that their bread and butter is in. 154 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's great when conditions are type you know, 155 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: and lose conditions like we are today, and a lot 156 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: of them you know, have higher costs. They've bought their equipment, 157 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: you know at the peak during the pandemic. You know, 158 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: those folks probably won't be able to last very long 159 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: in the spot market, which unfortunately, you know, needs to 160 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: happen to get capacity out to you know, provide support 161 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: for spot rates and you know that obviously will help 162 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: contractual rates which are you know down you know, low 163 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: double digits today. You know, when you're looking in your 164 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: crystal ball, you know, where do you see trucking a 165 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: year from now, whether it's a demand side or a 166 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: capacity side. 167 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: Well, I think you're right. This kind of combination of 168 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: folks who are have high base cost basis for equipment 169 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: maybe in the secondary market. Those of us who are 170 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: not in the secondary market, Yes, we've incurred a lot 171 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: of price increases, but we're kind of used to that 172 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: over time. Whereas kind of individuals or small fleets who 173 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: came in when there was extraordinary demand, Yeah, their cost 174 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: basis is high, and then yes, spot market reliance in 175 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: that decline is difficult. And then you couple that with 176 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: with fuel prices, so energy costs are or up dramatically, 177 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: particularly diesel over the summer. So that kind of stew 178 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: is going to make it very difficult for many market participants. 179 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 2: So that's you know, not something we wish upon anybody, 180 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: but it is many of us have seen a movie 181 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 2: like that before. 182 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: Sure, sure, And you know, given given the loose capacity 183 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: that's out there in the trucking spot market, and you 184 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: know how that's kind of bleeding into the contractual market 185 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 1: from a business owner and maybe even from your perspective, 186 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: as you know, your role at the ATA, Where do 187 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: you guys see the driver shortage that we hear so 188 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: much about, you know, is that is that still actually 189 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: an issue? Or is it really easy to hire people 190 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: right now? 191 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: No, I would never say it's definitely not easy. Has 192 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: it abated, you know, gradually from a year or so ago, Yeah, 193 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: that's fair to say. I mean, as you know, our 194 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: friend at the ATA Economics Department has did lower the 195 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 2: number that we're identifying as the shortage earlier this year. However, 196 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: you have to look at a few factors, and one 197 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 2: is what's the average age. So the average age of 198 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: professional trrector over now is the kind of mid to 199 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: late forties, and the new entrants are also skew older. 200 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: So I don't think it's I don't believe in kind 201 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: of using FMCSA registrations as a proxy for capacity. As 202 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: you know, this kind of dynamic of requiring you know, 203 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: folks who had historically run under the authority of a carrier. 204 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: Now with the kind of arms length transaction that's required 205 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: by a lot of carriers to kind of comply with 206 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: classification of workers, more and more independent contractors have had 207 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 2: to obtain their own authority, right, So that's kind of 208 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: not a good proxy in my opinion, and how that 209 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 2: pie is divided is really what that kind of shows. 210 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: So regardless, we need to attract and retain people who 211 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: are in a younger demographic because of the number of 212 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: folks who are retiring in the coming five to ten years. 213 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 2: And this is not a problem that's unique to the US, right, 214 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: so nearly every major economy is reporting a lot of 215 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: job openings for professional truck drivers. We share that with 216 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: the IRU, the International Road Union, which is kind of 217 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: like an international version of ATA. So how do you 218 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 2: do that, I guess would maybe be the next kind 219 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: of discussion point. And the young people, you know, the 220 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: last couple of decades, when there was this emphasis on 221 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: sense per mile, how do you attract a professional or 222 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 2: not so professional truck driver was sense per mile? Younger 223 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: people kind of don't digest that, right. You can't pay 224 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: the rent with miles, right, you pay the rent and 225 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: your bills with money. And then what we do at 226 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: our company that we adopted to probably twenty plus years ago, 227 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: is this kind of notion that you're gonna have clarity 228 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: of your guaranteed earnings when you're away from home. Once 229 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: you're dispatched away from home, you're on kind of effectively 230 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: a salary where you're getting compensated for your time, not 231 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: just your productivity. And then you have kind of visibility 232 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: as to what your schedule's kind of be. So some 233 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 2: folks go out for five days, they get two days off, 234 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: some folks go for three or four weeks, get a 235 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: week off, but the whole time they have clarity on 236 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: that schedule and for the earnings. So it's our experience 237 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: that younger folks kind of that resonates with them. That's 238 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 2: more appealing. Hey, I can live, I can plan my life. 239 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: I can have a financial kind of goal or plan 240 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: as well as my of a personal time plan. I 241 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: think as an industry, this is kind of what the 242 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: dynamic we're going to have to address. 243 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: Right in with hours of service and you know, more 244 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: regulations probably coming. You know, why do you think that 245 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: your company is in a minority in terms of that's 246 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: how you're paying compensating your drivers and most people are 247 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: still doing it by the mile. 248 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 2: Well, it's a free market. And I do know that 249 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: more and more fleets have adopted some form or component 250 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: of the compensation structure for professional drivers that has a 251 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: guarantee to it. But yes, we're we're in the minority 252 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: for sure. As you know, there's this kind of disconnect 253 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: between being regulated by hours in time and many kind 254 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: of buyers of transportation services wanting to pay by the mile, 255 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: and many fleets try to align their costs on that 256 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: variable basis to kind of align with the payment structure 257 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: or the pricing structure. So you in most industries, as 258 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: you know, like with capital, equipment and skilled labor, you 259 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: build on a time and materials basis, right, So think 260 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: about hiring a crane, whatever, landscaping equipment's you know, hvac techs. 261 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: You know, you have time and materials and our capacity 262 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 2: and trucking is largely in the form of time. You 263 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: don't have control a lot of times on miles, whether 264 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: you're the individual or the fleet. You're going through Chicago, 265 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: you're going through Nashville, Atlanta, et cetera, Los Angeles. So 266 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: you can many of us just have to have the 267 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: discipline to ensure that the professional truck driver's time is 268 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: being valued as well. And then if you have market participants, 269 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: shippers or intermediaries who do not. There are many participants 270 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: in the market, right who deliberately try to create a 271 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: race to the bottom and deliberately not try to value 272 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: a truck driver's time despite some kind of you know, 273 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 2: kind of lip service to the contrary. And as carriers, 274 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: you have to have the kind of discipline to walk 275 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: away from those right. 276 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned the age of the drivers. I was, 277 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, you know, I thought it was pretty incredible. 278 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: A couple maybe about a year and a half ago, 279 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: I went to visited a driving school as an XBO 280 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: driving school, and the average age of the students there 281 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: were in their late thirties, early forties, and it was 282 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: their second or third careers, you know, trying to do 283 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: something new, looking to become a professional truck driver. So, 284 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, the age and the demographics is really going 285 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: to be an issue to find, you know, a good 286 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: pool of qualified drivers. And you know, one of the 287 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: ways you can be unqualified is not passing rug tests. 288 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: And given the you know, spread of legal marijuana across 289 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: the US by a lot of states, you know, it's 290 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: still illegal from a federal standpoint. Therefore, from a dot standpoint, 291 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, and testing is getting stricter. It seems a 292 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: lot of the publicly traded companies are using hair follical tests, 293 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: which can you know, detect drugs and someone's system a 294 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: lot longer and a lot more accurate. Are you guys 295 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: using hair follicle testing? Where do you see the industry going? 296 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: As you know your role at the ATA. 297 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a great point. So with respect to 298 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: hair follicle testing, it is orders of magnitude more accurate 299 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 2: than your analysis, right, so anywhere from eight to eleven 300 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: times more accurate, which is first of all, concerning that 301 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 2: we're not that's a huge loophole. And then it was 302 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: I think it's seven years ago now that the law 303 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 2: enacted a requirement for hair testing to be approved or 304 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: approved means of testing professional tructure hours. So it has 305 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: been in. The quirky thing is that you know, DOT 306 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: in its subsidiary is kind of governed for the most 307 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: part to have jurisdiction over interstate transportation. However, the drug 308 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: testing standard has to come out of Health and Human Services. 309 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: So it's this has been a great frustration of the 310 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 2: industry because right now those carriers that do both your 311 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 2: analysis and they have to do both because the hair 312 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: testing in and of itself doesn't qualify with the DOT. However, 313 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: in that drug part of me clearinghouse, the Drug, Drug 314 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: and Alcohol Test and clearing house, you can only submit 315 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: the UR analysis results. So what we're asking in the interim, 316 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: because they're getting pushed back from organized labor quite a 317 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: bit at the administration that does not actually want this 318 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: to be enacted. That's the political kind of gyration that 319 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: they're going through right now. Uh, slow rolling it. But 320 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: in the interim, what we ask is that the hair 321 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: testing results at least be able to because many times 322 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: the UR analysis does not detect the drugs, but the 323 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: higer follicle does. Those tests should at least be used 324 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: in that clearinghouse so that somebody can't then go down 325 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: the street and just jump in someone else's truck. Even 326 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: if it's not mandated to use a more accurate form 327 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: of testing, at least allow those results to be submitted 328 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: to the clearinghouse. So we're getting closer and closer to that. 329 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: And then with respect to the demographic you know you 330 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: talked about the age. There are a couple of neat 331 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: things we have going on in kind of a concert 332 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: with the Department of Labor and other parties to get 333 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: going this apprenticeship program because we lose lot of kids 334 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 2: to other trades when they come out of high school 335 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 2: at eighteen. You can't drive a truck interstate till they're 336 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 2: twenty one. So we have a small scale with tons 337 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: and tons of parameters around it to just try to 338 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 2: stimulate more interest in driving in those eighteen to twenty 339 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: one year categories with a lot of stipulations. And then 340 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: something that I find exciting that some of our friends 341 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: in the industry are starting in Dallas is this kind 342 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: of pilot program where a lot of inner city youth 343 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: do not have access to normal driving schools to get 344 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: just a car driver's license. In this gentleman put up 345 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: kind of a map of driving schools for driver's ed. 346 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: So you and I and many other folks kind of 347 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: grew up in high school you had drivers education as 348 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: an option at the high school, and now that most 349 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 2: of them have been privatized, and guess where they're all located, 350 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 2: where the money is out in the suburbs, So inner 351 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: city youth don't have access to this. So he has 352 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 2: a pilot program going to help kids first get their 353 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 2: driver's license and then ultimately create a pathway to getting 354 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: a cd L. 355 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: Well, that's yeah, that that definitely, definitely could help. You know, 356 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting that, you know, labor wouldn't want to create 357 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: a safer environment for their members and the general driving public. 358 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: But I guess that's a discussion for another time. And 359 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: I'm very excited. On my first podcast we're talking about urine, 360 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: So kudos to us, you know, on on on the 361 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: topic of regulations not not not urine. You know, there's 362 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot of mandates out there trying to reduce pollution, 363 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, whether it's new EPA regulations that probably go 364 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: into effective believe in twenty twenty seven for new trucks, 365 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: or what we're seeing you know, in the shipping industry 366 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: or the rail industry. Everyone wants to reduce their their 367 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: carbon footprint. You know, there's been a lot of talk 368 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: of electric electrification of trucks to help clean the environment. 369 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: You know, where do you see the evolution of electric 370 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: trucks in over the road trucking, whether it's from your 371 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, your perspective at Boiled Transport or you know, 372 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 1: the point of view of of of your work at 373 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: the ATA. 374 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, what I want to make explicitly 375 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: clear is that we we truckers as writ large, you know, 376 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: we are heavily invested in reducing environmental impact. So we're 377 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 2: the doers. We're the ones who kind of carry that 378 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: load and have experienced different steps with emission standard changes 379 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: over the particularly over the last twenty years. So for 380 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: and it's our work environment right. So as somebody who 381 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: grew up around diesel films, you know, the reduction ninety 382 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: nine reduction from the nineteen eighty eight standard is extraordinary 383 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: and you know we personally directly benefited from it. Now 384 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: we also, however, have to agree that reducing environmental impact 385 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: is virtuous. But dictating a particular technology, particular drive train, 386 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: particular alternative fuel without regard for kind of the life 387 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: cycle of it, that is not so virtuous. And what 388 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: I experienced in the in April when I testify to 389 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: the Senate hearing is that there is a little bit 390 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 2: of dogma associated with EV's being the panacea for all. 391 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 2: So this is a massive industry. It is incredibly diverse, 392 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: with all different kind of operating segments, and there are 393 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: there are some applications for which evs will be a 394 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: great solution provided the economics to get to a rational point. 395 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: But two things happened in the spring with the US EPA. First, 396 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: they said the twenty twenty seven standard that all parties 397 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: had agreed to and had been established that all the 398 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 2: engine manufacturers were gearing toward for twenty twenty seven, EPA said, 399 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 2: you know what, we're going to reopen that for the 400 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: federal standard. We're going to reopen that and reconsider that. 401 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: Here we are just a couple a few years away 402 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 2: when the OEMs had already tooled up and engineered for it. 403 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: We're going to reopen that and reconsider it, okay. And 404 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 2: then secondly, we're going to allow states to apply, to 405 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: appeal to the federal government to have a waiver to 406 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: establish their own emission standards. So those two things are 407 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: completely contradict kind of this partnership with regulators industry to 408 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 2: achieve kind of achievable standards and an achievable time frame. 409 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: And then quickly thereafter, as you know, California dictated or 410 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: that they're going to mandate, effective this coming January, the 411 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 2: adoption of EVS by fleets, so that come twenty thirty five, 412 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: internal combustion engines of all sorts will be outlawed in California. Okay, 413 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 2: so talking you know, OEMs themselves and many other participants, 414 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: there are some in tests right now. People might think 415 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: that there are thousands of thousands and thousands of heavy 416 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: duty truck evs in the road. That is not the case. 417 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: Even Tesla, which it makes great products and people love 418 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: them and you know, it's exciting. Some of the design 419 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 2: they have, they only have I think they're eighteen or 420 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: twenty on the road after seven years, six or seven 421 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 2: years after the big pr event. And I'm not deriding them. 422 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 2: It just goes to show, however, that it's very complicated 423 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: and the infrastructure that you can leverage for passenger vehicles, 424 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: people's homes, their workplace, et cetera. For charging that that 425 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 2: has there's no application of that. There's no kind of 426 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: analog for that for commercial and the demand of each 427 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: heavy duty truck BEV consumes like a couple hundred homes 428 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: worth of electricity. So that that's the problem, is that 429 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 2: there's this you know, wanting to reduce environmental impact is 430 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: virtuous and we're on board with that, and we can 431 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: kind of share the evidence of the path that has 432 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 2: already been taken to get to a ninety nine percent 433 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 2: reduction from where we were in the eighties. But to 434 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 2: dictate one particular solution or one technology is crazy and 435 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 2: our the American Transportation Research Institute, which does extraordinary work, 436 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: a year ago published their analysis of the life cycle 437 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 2: environmental impact. Right, So looking at emissions is only one component. 438 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 2: So for example, making a heavy heavy duty truck class 439 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 2: A truck BV is seven times worse for the environment 440 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 2: than making an internal combustion engine diesel truck now over 441 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: the life cycle, but then the emissions you have the 442 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 2: benefit of zero emissions. So the total life cycle environmental 443 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: impact of a BEEV relative to internal combustion engine diesel 444 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 2: is about a thirty percent benefit. However, you have to 445 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: use more trucks to hold to do the same amount 446 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: of work, so you end up probably in many cases 447 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: you're going to end up a net negative and. 448 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: You're using more trucks just because of the weight to 449 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: issues of the batteries. 450 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: So you got payload capacity which is going to be 451 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 2: reduced quite in some cases more substantially. You know, when 452 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: you add more batteries for longer kind of radius or 453 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: what do you call it, a range right, if you 454 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: want more range, you got to add more battery packs well, 455 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: and that is going to make it heavier. So there's 456 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: this kind of diminishing return you get. And then furthermore 457 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: so you have a kind of lower payload capacity and 458 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 2: then you have the operating characteristics where you downtime is 459 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 2: going to be greater. Right, the analogy I made it 460 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 2: or the kind of comparison I made and the hearing 461 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 2: was that right now we get to one hundred gallon, 462 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: we get like two hundred gallon capacity for fuel. Okay, 463 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 2: you feel in about fifteen minutes you get really you 464 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: could have up to call it conservatively one thousand to 465 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: twelve hundred miles twelve hundred mile range before feeling you can. 466 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: With the BEV they're typically closer to a two hundred 467 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: mile range in each time. In many cases you're five eight. 468 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: You know, it could be anywhere from four to eight 469 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: hours of charging. So just yeah, there are certain applications 470 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: for which it's going to be great, But to have 471 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: this kind of broad brush painted a across the industry, 472 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: there are other ways to get there. So my company, 473 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: for example, we measure everything really closely. Just in the 474 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:12,239 Speaker 2: last six years we've reduced emissions by fifty percent. There 475 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: are ways to do it without dictating a particular technology, and. 476 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: You've reduced them. How did you reduce them? Is that 477 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: you're just talking about just buying more fuel efficient trucks 478 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: or are you guys doing something outside of the equipment 479 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: to help reduce the submissions. 480 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's newer trucks are cleaner and safer, and 481 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: then we have you know, we can idle rejection technology, 482 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: solar panels on the hood or probably not the hood, 483 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: but kind of up on top of the cab to 484 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 2: power some of the hotel load. You have the aerodynamics, 485 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: and then we measure everything, even the consumption. Here at 486 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,239 Speaker 2: our facilities, we have a solar power to headquarters. So 487 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 2: there are ways to achieve these outcomes without necessarily dictating 488 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: something that trillions investment across the country. You know, the 489 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: if we convert the entire US fleet of cars and trucks, 490 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: we're gonna need forty to fifty percent more electricity. Yeah. 491 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: I remember talking to a CEO of a trucking company 492 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: and they they were all set to buy a fleet 493 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: of electric trucks. There the shipper was on board that 494 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: had the commitment, but they the grid wasn't ready for it, 495 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: and so that that's a huge hurdle that the you 496 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: know that the country has to has to get over it. 497 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,959 Speaker 1: You know, we have to make significant investments into you know, 498 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: the the electric grid, which is has been under invested 499 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: for decades. 500 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 2: Right in the in the power you know, the utilities 501 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: and the power plant. Kind of manufacturers, I guess built 502 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: constructors will inform you that it takes a solid seven 503 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: years to build a new one. And so in the 504 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 2: introm what do we do right, because we do agree 505 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 2: with this virtue that we can reduce environmental impact. And 506 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: so twenty ten was a big jump in diesel emission standard. 507 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: So there's kind of pre twenty ten post twenty ten 508 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: and from pre twenty ten era to today it's about 509 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: eighty three percent reduction in emissions. So reusing round numbers, 510 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 2: in the country, the percentage of Class eight trucks that 511 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: are pre twenty ten is about fifty percent, so about 512 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: half the trucks on the road are pre twenty ten. 513 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 2: In California is among the worst, so it has like 514 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: one of the oldest fleets in the country. 515 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: And then is that all the draage operators going in 516 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: and out of the ports. 517 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,959 Speaker 2: Well, a lot of those have been turned over, but 518 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 2: just generally you're kind of creating disincentives. So the one 519 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 2: way that we're trying to approach this is how do 520 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: we take action now to reduce emissions in aggregate? And 521 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 2: if half the trucks are pre twenty ten and you 522 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 2: get an eighty plus percent reduction, well, if we got 523 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: we're going to try to we want to repeal the 524 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 2: federal excise tax, which is twelve percent levy on new 525 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: vehicles that was initially installed to pay for World War One. 526 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: I think we settled that debt by now. So if 527 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: we're gonna if we want to update those new trucks, 528 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 2: take you know, with eighty percent, say you know, fifty 529 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 2: percent of eighty forty percent, we can achieve a forty 530 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: percent reduction and emissions in aggregate if we just facilitate 531 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 2: the turnover those old vehicles. So let's get on that 532 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: instead of just kind of get it getting getting wetted 533 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: to one particular uh marketing approach for one technology. 534 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like that electrification of North America trucking 535 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: is a long way out. Something you know that I 536 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: think also is a long way out that you know 537 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: people like to talk about is autonomous trucking. You know, 538 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: that gets a lot of play, especially in the press. Uh, 539 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, what are your what are your feelings in 540 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: autonomous trucking? Is it going to be here in our lifetime? 541 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: And when I say autonomous trucking, I'm talking about level five, 542 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about just making the truck safe. For 543 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: all the great technology that autonomous trucking does that makes 544 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: a driver more safer when he when he or she 545 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: is operating uh, the equipment. 546 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's it's a massive industry and there's an 547 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: addressable market for technology like that in in certain applications 548 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 2: and that could be you know, on in on private 549 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: property obviously in kind of yard applications, and maybe some 550 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 2: over the road in designated areas. I think so there 551 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: are a lot of smart people working on that. It 552 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 2: is exciting. The removal of the human is kind of 553 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 2: where the business case comes in, and we're not we're 554 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 2: not really in position to start planning on that being 555 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: wide scale commercial adoption anytime soon, to the extent that 556 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 2: we should relax our efforts to attract and retain people 557 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 2: to work in the industry. But we're you know, our 558 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: company has been. We're early adopters as it pertains to 559 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 2: safety technologies. So we love these features and I haven't 560 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 2: even in my jeep, you know, the adaptive cruise lane 561 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 2: to avoidably in collision part of me, lane, departure warning, 562 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 2: all these, uh, all these features that make it safer 563 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: and less intimidating for a new entrant to operate attractor trailer. 564 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily think that near term, wide scale commercial 565 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 2: adoption of a VS is is uh something we're staring 566 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 2: at right now. However, there are plenty of applications for 567 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: which would be appropriate. 568 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: Right sounds like we agree on a lot of things here, 569 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: you know, I would imagine that, you know, when if 570 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: an industry is talking about, or if prospective employees are 571 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: hearing about the getting rid of the driver, it's probably 572 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: gonna be even harder to retain and attract younger drivers 573 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: into the industry of fear of just like not having 574 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: a job for a long But you know, it sounds 575 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: like any young person wants to enter trucking, they probably 576 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: have a pretty good career ahead of them for decades 577 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: decades to come. 578 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 2: That is interesting, Yeah, that that notion that it's deterring 579 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 2: younger people are are kind of colleagues in Europe. The 580 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 2: IR you did perform a survey on that topic and 581 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 2: that was a lot of the feedback they got from 582 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: younger folks. They have been aversion to entering something that 583 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 2: they think is going to be you know, akin to 584 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 2: the elevator operator of a century ago. 585 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, but uh or what are they bowling? Pin? I 586 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,399 Speaker 1: think these two I don't know what they it's called 587 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: them pin monkeys. I had a great uncle that was 588 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: a pin monkey. Actually, I think he told me it 589 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: made like a penny a pin or something ridiculous that's great. 590 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: Or maybe it was half a penny a pin in 591 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: the forties or thirties. I don't know. Anyway. Well, on 592 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: that note, you know, I think we're wrapping things up. 593 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: Am I going to see you at the ATA conference 594 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: in October? 595 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 2: You bet? I have no choice. We'll see you in 596 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 2: the area, no choice to see me, no choice? Yeah, 597 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: but I guess I can choose to see you, but 598 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 2: it must must attend. And it's as you know, it's 599 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 2: really kind of it's an energetic bunch some of the 600 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,919 Speaker 2: great stories. As we know, you mentioned even the big 601 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 2: public companies were started kind of a humble beginning, and 602 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 2: there's no kind of pretentious folks in this industry, whether 603 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 2: they're operating a carrier or a service provider to those 604 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 2: or a vendor. So it's a great group of people. 605 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 2: We have a lot of hot button issues going on 606 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 2: on the rate, military front, legislative front, and uh so 607 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 2: it's always refuels me with energy engaging with peers there. Yeah. 608 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,439 Speaker 1: So I've been covering the space for it's it's coming 609 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 1: up to twenty years now and at a the the 610 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: the m C Annual Conference is one that I like 611 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: to attend, uh, you know, every year when I when 612 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: I can, and uh it's it's always full of uh 613 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: from a channel checks perspective. I get to interact with 614 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: a lot of interesting people, a lot of entrepreneurs you know, 615 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: and people that you know that are in the C 616 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: suite of companies that I cover. So it's great opportunity 617 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: and you know, there's no shortage of big characters that 618 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: that that attend that conference. So I'm looking forward to 619 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: it in October and and hopefully we can catch up 620 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: for a coffee you know while we're there. 621 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely all right. 622 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: Well, with that, I think we're going to wrap things up. 623 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: I just want to thank everyone for tuning in, and 624 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: if you like the episode, please subscribe and leave a review. 625 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,720 Speaker 1: If you don't like the episode, don't leave a review. 626 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 1: I guess that's what we should say. I'm kidding. We're 627 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: always open for feedback, but you know, we have lined 628 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: up a number of great guests for the podcast. Check 629 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: back to hear conversations with C suite executives from companies 630 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: like Canadian National, CSX, Werner, r XO, g XO, Starbull, 631 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: PAM Transport, and Scorpio Tankers, just to name a few. 632 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: So I'm very excited to be doing this. You can 633 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 1: find me on Twitter or x or whatever they're calling 634 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 1: it at Logistics Lee. Drop me a line, say hello, 635 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: tell me what you liked, what you didn't like. Also 636 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: feel free link to connect with me on LinkedIn. And Andrew, 637 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: can people reach out to you? Where can they people 638 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: find you? If they or if you want to be found? 639 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I know, sometimes not so much, but yeah. 640 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 2: Where Our website is Boil Transport dot com, be O 641 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 2: y l E and our our parent companies and Lower 642 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 2: Healthcare Group and Michael anlawer is just closing on the 643 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 2: purchase of the Ottawa Senators, so he's uh. He loves 644 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 2: he loves a few things, loves logistics, he loves hockey 645 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 2: and his family. So it's great for a great to 646 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 2: see a guy who similarly kind of dropped out of 647 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 2: college was working on loading docks, created a great company 648 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 2: that's very highly regarded in the farmer space and employees 649 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 2: a couple thousand people, and now as a Beer League 650 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 2: hockey goalie, he gets to own an NHL team. Pretty 651 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 2: cool story. 652 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: That is fantastic. Let's go to a game. 653 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 2: Very done. 654 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: All right, thanks everyone, have a great rest of your morning, day, 655 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 1: or evening. Take care, bye bye. Be safe out there.