1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritude Day, a show 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: where we reimagine the word citizen as a verb, reclaim 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: it from those who weaponized it, and remind ourselves how 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: to wield our collective power. I'm Baritune Day. Like a 5 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: healthy democracy, this show is stronger with your participation, and 6 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: we have a number of ways for you to do 7 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: that in public. Use the hashtag how to Citizen when 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: you post about the show on social media, and I'll 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: share out some of your stories. To communicate with us directly, 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: send feedback and ideas to comments at how to citizen 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: dot com, and if you've taken the actions we recommend 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: at the end of each episode, share those with us 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: by emailing action at how to citizen dot com. We've 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: been moved by which you shared from the episode so 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: far and look forward to more into building future episodes 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: with you and your actions. Now a word on how 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: we make this show. We've record most of these shows 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: live in Zoom with a studio audience, cameras on chat 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: room lit up, and we take questions from you for 20 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: our guests. I'd love to have you joined for future taping. 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: Visit how does citizen dot com and join my email 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: list for the invites and my amazing weekly emails. I'm 23 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: the best emailer while I love the live audience. Don't worry. 24 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: I'll catch up with just you on the other side 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: of this conversation where I'll give you some really specific 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: ways to citizen for this episode. In the meantime, I'm 27 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: going to hand the mic to myself as I set 28 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: up the conversation with our amazing guests. I have been 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: thinking about this word normal a lot lately. What does 30 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: normal mean? You know, normal is this state of things 31 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: that we get used to, and normal can change. So, 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: for example, I don't think as normal to have fifteen 33 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: different streaming platforms vying for access to my wallet and 34 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: my attention. I think that is very abnormal. But someone 35 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: just coming into the world today says, okay, Grandpa, thanks 36 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: for complaining. This is how it is. Stop your whining. 37 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: In the United States, we have grown accustomed to a 38 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: lot of normal that feels pretty abnormal if you start 39 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: to look at it a different way. And nowhere is 40 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: this clearer than in the area of public safety, and 41 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: in particular the area of policing. We exist in a 42 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: moment right now of pandemic and uprising and revolution centered 43 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: around so much of this issue of policing. And it 44 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: has become normal in this country to spend a hundred 45 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year on law enforcement. It has become 46 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: normal for school police departments to have grenade launchers, you know, 47 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: in case the kids get out of hand. It has 48 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: become normal for the number one budget item and many 49 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: of our cities to be going to the police department, 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: making all of us residents, by default, by mathematical law, 51 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: residents of a police state. But a challenge has emerged 52 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: from this moment to change that normal, to do something different, 53 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: to defund the police. And I know when I first 54 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: heard that, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 55 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: What are we talking about here? This sounds like madness? 56 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: What about crime? I literally I was like, what about crime? 57 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: What about murders? What all the bad things? And there's 58 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: an answer to that, an answer we're going to explore 59 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: far beyond the slogans in this show. We can spend 60 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: our money in many different ways. We can make the 61 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: public safe without calling on a relatively unaccountable man with 62 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: a gun to try to resolve a situation. And I 63 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: wanted to have that discussion. I wanted to explore this 64 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: range of options. Are we're gonna have any police at all? 65 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: It sounds a little crazy. What about the cops that 66 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: are already there, like some of them are good people, 67 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: But also what about social workers and people who actually 68 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: know how to solve some of the problems of homelessness 69 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: that we are burdening these police officers with. And what 70 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: about the risk to communities who were so overburdened with 71 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: exposure to law enforcement for whom they are not protecting 72 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: and serving but doing something much more dastardly. I can't 73 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: do that discussion on my own, and I knew two 74 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: people I wanted to do it with, and we're gonna 75 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: get the benefit of their genius and their brilliance in 76 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: this episode. The first is Dr Philip at Tiba Golf. 77 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: He's the co founder and CEO of the Center for 78 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: Policing Equity. This is the world's largest think tank and 79 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: action tank focused exclusively on race and policing. It's like 80 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: he built an organization designed or where we are right now. Also, 81 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: as if that's not enough, He's a professor of African 82 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: American Studies in Psychology at Yale University. His team at 83 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: CPE uses data science and partnerships with law enforcement agencies 84 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: and communities to reduce racial bias in policing. Joining Dr 85 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: Phil Goff will be Zach Norris, executive director of the 86 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: Ella Baker Center for Human Rights. Zack's also the author 87 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: of a book made for this moment called We Keep 88 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: Us Safe, Building secure, just and inclusive Communities. He's the 89 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: co founder of Restore Oakland, a community advocacy and training 90 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: center that will empower Bay Area community members to transform 91 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: local economic and justice systems and make a safe and 92 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: secure future possible for themselves and their families. That's the 93 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: formal introduction. The informal introduction is I have known these 94 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: brothers for twenty five years. We're in the same year 95 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: from Harvard, and I have seen them do this work 96 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: their entire adult lives. They've devoted it so much to 97 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: liberation to improvement in very different ways. I am excited 98 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: to welcome you, Phil. I'm excited to welcome m Zack. Um. Phil. 99 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: I've had such insight into your work. I've literally like 100 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: been hanging out with police chiefs and you in the 101 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: same room at the same time. And so I'll give 102 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: you an opportunity to expand briefly on just how you 103 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: describe what your work is, because I see you doing 104 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: the data science thing, working in communities, trying to stop 105 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: police from killing black and brown people in a very 106 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: scientific way, and we're in a moment where it's like 107 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: defund the police, and yet you're also working with police. 108 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: So can you describe your work so that we can 109 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: understand that better? Sure, and I know that I'm skipping ahead, 110 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: but there's no there's no way to prevent me from 111 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: doing that. I'm genetically predisposed. Um. When we hear people 112 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: talking about defund the police, I just want to want 113 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: to say, I've been hearing police talking about defund the 114 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: police using very for language for years. There's no police 115 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: chief that works with us that doesn't think it's a 116 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: terrible idea to send law enforcement um to deal with 117 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: drug overdoses, Like why would imagine the gun help with 118 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: that situation? But I mean, the longest sort of what 119 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: it is that we do at CPE, I mean you 120 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: said it basically exactly, that we work between communities and 121 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: law enforcement to help on the inside of law enforcement 122 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: making them less racist and less deadly. And then on 123 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: the outside, so that communities are empowered to make decisions 124 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: about where they want law enforcement to go. And just 125 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: as importantly, especially in this moment where they don't want 126 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,679 Speaker 1: law enforcement to go, the sort of key value add 127 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: the thing that we do that other people hadn't been doing. 128 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: We don't just calculate disparities, right, So let's say black 129 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: people are four times more likely get beat up by 130 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: the cops than white people, which is roughly right nationally. Right, 131 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: if we imagine there's racism and policing, why on earth 132 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: would we not imagine that there's racism and housing and 133 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: education um and unemployment and in health care, all of 134 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: which happens before any contact with police. So that four 135 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: to one number, that's some police, it's some poverty, it's 136 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: some other forms of racism. And I want to hold 137 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: police accountable for the things that they do, right, I 138 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: don't want to make them accountable for all the things 139 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: they don't do, like we do for everything else. We 140 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: make them accountable for all public health, for all education 141 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: outs So we pro we use science to give them 142 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: back a measure of justice, not just a measure of crime. 143 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: And that allows communities to hold them accountable and in 144 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: doing that, we've also essentially created the algorithm that says 145 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: and here is where we no longer need them. So 146 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: in this moment when people are talking about defunding, my 147 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: hope is we're gonna end up talking a lot more 148 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: about investing funding blackness. Right, But if we need a 149 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: roadmap for how to do this and not have to 150 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: worry so much that violence is just going to become 151 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: the second pandemic in this phase, there are ways to 152 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: measure that too, because there's a lot of policing that 153 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with violence, has nothing really to 154 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: do with the fastest route to public safety. And to 155 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: the degree that there's good news in the middle of 156 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 1: the space, there is no responsible police chief who won't 157 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: tell you that to their face. Zack, I want to 158 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: give you a similar opportunity to break down where you 159 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: fit into all this. What is the work that you're 160 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: doing through Ella Baker and through and particularly through the 161 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: store Oakland. Yeah, I appreciate that. At the al Baker Center, 162 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: we advocate for books not bars, jobs not jails, housing 163 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: and healthcare not handcuffs agenda, So we very much like alliteration, 164 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: and we also like um funding a social safety net. 165 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: We've seen too much investment in what we call a 166 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: punishment drag net, and we want to actual safety net 167 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: to be supported. I mean, if COVID nineteen shows anything, 168 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: it shows that public safety actually starts with public health. UM. 169 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: For so long we've said, you know, public health issues 170 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: need public health solutions. We never thought we would need 171 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: to say that as it relates to global pandemic. Right, 172 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: but leave it to this president to use a global 173 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: pandemic as just another excuse to blame, shame, scapegoat marginalized communities, 174 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: people of color, and so that is that has a 175 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: long history in this country, and we have been fighting 176 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: since the mid nineties when it was not popular to 177 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: do criminal justice reform or anything along those lines, to 178 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: really advocate for UM, the funding of blackness, the funding 179 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: of communities of color, the funding of dignity and low 180 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: income communities and communities of color across the country. Break 181 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: down what restore Oakland is and what you've tried to 182 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: design in that. Yeah, for so long, we have been 183 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 1: pushing for resources to be shifted away from sheriff's departments, 184 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: probation departments, police departments, UM prisons, and towards community based 185 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: supports for people who are navigating issues of homelessness, drug use, um, 186 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: mental health issues, etcetera. And we finally found some success 187 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: about five years ago. We moved Alameda County to move 188 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: about ten million dollars away from the Sheriff and Probation 189 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: Department towards basically community stuff to support people who are 190 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: navigating the jail system. Now, what we found is a 191 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: lot of the same nonprofit agencies were getting the funding 192 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: who we're good at putting together an RFP, but we're 193 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: not good at actually providing people with a job or 194 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: doing restorative or transformative justice. They had no felt community connection. 195 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: And so we're like, people need visual aids, sometimes government 196 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: need visual aige. We decided, hey, let's create Restore Oakland 197 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: to actually show what we mean by community safety. It's 198 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: an eighteen thousand square foot building that houses restorative justice, 199 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: one of the first dedicated spaces for restored justice in 200 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: the country. Much like you wouldn't just go to a 201 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: courtroom and have a sandwich or have a beer, we 202 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: think restorative justice should be held in a kind of 203 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: sacro sanc manner to help hold people accountable while still 204 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: holding them in community. And that is within Restore Oakland, 205 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: a restaurant run by formally incarcerated folks and others who 206 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: have been locked out of opportunity, and nonprofit organizations that 207 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: are fighting to hold not just community members accountable, but 208 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: also elected officials accountable to our vision of books not bars, 209 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: and jobs not jails. So all of those things come 210 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: together and Restore Oakland, and you can imagine it almost 211 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: as if it's like the first solar panel when it 212 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: comes to public safety in our mind right, because how 213 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: would you imagine a new energy future if you hadn't 214 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: seen solar panels and wind turbines and those things. And 215 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: so much of our imagination has come to be dominated 216 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: by shows like Law and Order and Cops. And also, 217 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: you know orange is the new Black. That we think 218 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: of prisons as really the architecture of public safety, and 219 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: we're trying to shift that in people's mind by actually 220 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: providing this visual aid that sounds beautiful. It sounds like 221 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: you built Wakonda, and okay, we tried. I'm still trying 222 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: to get a shout out from my brother, Ryan Coogler, 223 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: who also went to buy high school. Shout out, Ryan, 224 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: if you could come to Restore I'll clearly to appreciate it. Well, 225 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure he's gonna hear that, because everybody's gonna hear 226 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: this podcast. I wanna give you an opportunity to define 227 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: a term that you dropped a few times in there, 228 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: which not everyone is familiar with. You said, restorative justice. 229 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Yeah, So, restorative justice is a 230 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: process for individuals, for communities, and for nations. And on 231 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: the level of individuals, it's the person who has caused harm, 232 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: the person who has been harmed sitting together in a circle, 233 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: surrounded by the people that support them. And what happens 234 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: is an accountability plan is developed so that person has 235 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: to make an ends for the harm that they have caused. Um, 236 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: it's amazing because it reduces recidivism rates, meaning people are 237 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: much less likely to get back in trouble again. Victims 238 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: report much higher satisfaction rates because they can see the accountability. 239 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: They know, here are the steps this person is taking 240 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: to right this wrong. And it's amazing for democracy as well, 241 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: because all those people who are in that secondary circle 242 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: surrounding the hard person and the person who's caused harm 243 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: really have to actually ask what could I have done 244 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: to prevent this? And what can I do to make 245 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: it right? So it's really building this kind of community 246 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: accountability muscle that I think is absolutely critical in this 247 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: moment because we got politicians that are running wild, and 248 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: if we don't really have this practice of like holding 249 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: people accountable in a way that isn't you know, just 250 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: um like exile exile right, because you can't be answerable 251 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: to someone if you can't actually hear them or be 252 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: an interface with them. And we've relied on a punishment 253 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: system that actually short circuits accountability rather than engenders it. 254 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: And and that's what restorative justice is really all about, 255 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, thank you for that. When I think about 256 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: the way we do policing in this country, I reminded 257 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: of my first visit to a jail in this country, 258 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: which is Rikers Island in New York City, and it 259 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: was just a few years ago, and it stood out 260 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: to me because it is a massive complex, about ten 261 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: thousand people there at the time that I visited, and 262 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: I had lived in New York for a decade and 263 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: had no idea. It is like that Game of Thrones 264 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: north of the Wall area that we are allowed to 265 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: forget a part of ourselves, you know, a part of 266 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: our society, our neighbors, and these were people who hadn't 267 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: even been convicted of a crime. They were waiting for trial, 268 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, because they didn't have bail money or something. 269 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: So thank you for breaking that down, Thank you for 270 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: reminding us. I think that with the comunity can have 271 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: a role in accountability and in achieving public safety. Paint 272 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: me a picture, Phil, when we do public safety right 273 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: in this country, How is it different from the way 274 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: we do it now, especially given your proximity to law enforcement, 275 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: your partnership with them. What does it feel like? You 276 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: talked about that, like we don't do it right, and 277 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: that's just not quite accurate. In this country, we absolutely 278 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: do it right, just not where we're thinking about it, 279 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: because you're thinking about it, like where you live in 280 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: l A. We definitely don't do it right there, or 281 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: where I live in New York, we don't do it 282 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: like I mean, they don't do it at all in 283 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: some places of where exact lives in England, right, But 284 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: there is this wonderful place, not Wakonda, but it feels 285 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:48,479 Speaker 1: mythical where when somebody loses their job, they have money 286 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: and they have you know, retraining community colleges, they can 287 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: go to um When they have a mental health crisis, 288 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: there are counselors they can talk to. When there's a breakup, 289 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: they got couches they can serve all and they got 290 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: friends who can support that marriage. When their kids acting wild, 291 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: they have a community from call in an aunt or 292 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: a or a grandmother who can talk to them, a 293 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: neighbor who can take a man to teach them a trade. 294 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: And when law enforcements called, it's called to deal with 295 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,959 Speaker 1: the most vulnerable or the most serious, and it is 296 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: not too severe or too lenient because it's aligned with 297 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: community values. And you're looking at me like all confused. 298 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: They place. You may have driven through this place. I 299 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: want to I want to take my time to pronounce 300 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: the word right. I think it's called the suburbs. Is 301 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: that how the suburbs? Yeah? So I know it was 302 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: a long walk to get the punch line of that joke. 303 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: I feel like it was worth it. It's also a 304 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: long walk to the suburbs because really, exactly these public 305 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: frands that doesn't get there, which we five design. They 306 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: didn't want the folks who are living in the inner 307 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: city to get out anyway. It's kind of like a cage, 308 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: like they meant to do it that way, both on 309 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: meta and in their schools. But this is not the point. 310 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: The point is we do this right. Imagine a community 311 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: of fifty people, we all know each other, and there's 312 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: a sheriff and the sheriff just beat the hell out 313 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: of the kids for petty thefts. Well, the fifty is 314 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: gonna get together, We're gonna get a new sheriff because 315 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: that's not how you treat kids. Now, imagine the sheriff 316 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 1: lets the kids run wild and kids are burning down homes. Well, 317 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: we don't get together as fifty people, we don't get 318 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: a new sheriff, because that's not how we treat owns. 319 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: The problem in larger cities and in some of the 320 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: rural areas, and in fact that some of those suburbs 321 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: when outsiders come in like folks and get out, is 322 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: that we untether right the issue of severity and protection 323 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: and we just campaign on we just message around protection 324 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: because we refused to see the humanity of the people 325 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: who cause those harms. So in smaller communities that have resources, 326 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: there's hell to pay if you were too severe on 327 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: somebody's child. But in communities where the parents of the 328 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: children who are most likely to cause harms don't have 329 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: any power. There are no checks on the authority to 330 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: administer punishment. And that's what I'm talking about when I'm 331 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: talking about how we do public safety right. Right, there's 332 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: no reason for massive military policing in suburbs where they 333 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: have control over their law enforcement, they wouldn't stand for it. 334 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: But in systems where power is concentrated among elites and 335 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: where those who are most vulnerable to underground economies and 336 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: to the violence of poverty instead of in addition to 337 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: the violence of street crime. In those kinds of places, 338 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: policing is not just to keep everybody safe. Is protect 339 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: one group of citizens against another. And when you set 340 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: up policing like that, we have accountability. Police would get 341 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: punished every time that the people who have power are 342 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: upset with what they do. But that's a different kind 343 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: of accountability than democratic accountability. And so I want us 344 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: to be specific. Let's not act like we don't know 345 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: how to do public safety right in America and like 346 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: it's just it's this unfathomable thing. We do it all 347 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: the time, we drive through it on the way to 348 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: the place where we want to get stuff fixed, right, 349 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: So it's not mythical, it's practical. We can hold it. 350 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: The difficulty is both remembering that these are part of 351 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: the same country hard if you travel back and forth, 352 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: and then the price of the ticket from where we 353 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: are to where we're going, because that change is real 354 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 1: and painful, and there is the place where people are 355 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: reasonably concerned about violence, and that's part of the conversation 356 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: we absolutely have to have right now. I mean, I 357 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: remember reading this book about the opioid crisis and reading 358 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: I think it was about Burlington, Vermont and the police 359 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: chief there was coordinating with the hospitals, encouraging them to 360 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: use methodone or whatever it is to step folks down 361 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: from the addiction. He was saying, no, don't do this, 362 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, law enforcement thing. Here's the public health thing. 363 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: As I understand that, and I was like, my mind 364 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: was blown. I was like, what in the how is 365 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: the police chief, like, you know, coordinating with hospital systems 366 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: in a way that actually promotes a public health response. 367 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: But to Phil's point, I mean, it's real that being said, like, 368 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: we live in a country that is profoundly racist, right, 369 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: and so when what I often say is like, how 370 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: could we think of taking care of public safety if 371 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: we haven't taken care of the public and we are 372 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: coming to be a majority people of color nation and 373 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: we are not taking care of that majority of people. Um, 374 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: and I just feel like we have to call the 375 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: question of the larger system as a whole and understand 376 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: that police chiefs have some say so, but also there 377 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: is this huge problem. And to Phil's point, like, let's 378 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: not make it all the police problem, but let's still 379 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: address the larger problem. We went from a country that said, 380 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: you know, the only good Indian is a dead Indian, 381 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: as during our westward expansion, to neoliberal governance over the 382 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: past forty fifty years that have said the only good 383 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: government is death government. And I know that sounds hard, 384 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: but I'm honestly believe that if recession after recession, you 385 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: only fund policing in prisons, the very thing that if 386 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: recession after recession, we've seen twenty three new prisons in 387 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: California built just one new university. Fifty three cents of 388 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: every federal dollar goes to military. As you said, Barratunity, 389 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: the lion's share of resources on the city level goes 390 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: to police, departments, sheriffs. You talked about sheriffs. The sheriffs 391 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: are the most powerful political entities in many municipalities. And 392 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: so the very things that accelerate the morbidity of black 393 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: and brown people are the things that have been recession 394 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: proof over the past forty fifty years. And that's not 395 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: including what you know Reverend Barbera calls the death measures 396 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: on the d L. So every half million people who 397 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: don't have health insurance, people will die, seven hundred people 398 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: dying a day from mount nutrition and poverty. Right, And 399 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: so we have funded governance that is allowing and COVID 400 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: nineteen and these are all pre COVID numbers. COVID nineteen 401 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: is exposing this in a different way. And I think 402 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: that there's a reckoning with governance that isn't actually supporting 403 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: and sustaining life. That is about policing, but it's also 404 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: much larger than it can I can I just add 405 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: back on because my mans shout at out Brandon del Poso, 406 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 1: who's the former chief and reliant um that is not 407 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: just the outlier, that isn't what he wins awards from 408 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: other chiefs. Right in the same way that Scott Thompson, 409 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: who led the transition of Camden's dissolution and then rebuilding 410 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: a police department. Not that that's a model, not that 411 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: that's remotely close to perfect, but Scott talks about all 412 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: the time, I'd rather have a boys and growth club 413 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: than ten officers. This is now mainstream within law enforcement, 414 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: and was ten years ago. They were saying, like, you 415 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: guys want us to do everything, We can't do everything right. 416 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: You can't be like, I'm gonna stop street crime and 417 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: I do hair like. That's not a thing that enforcement 418 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: can do. And what that means is either you reckon 419 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: with the violence of poverty being something that cannot be 420 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: handled with the badge and a gun, or you have 421 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: decided that all you want to fund is punishment, and 422 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: law enforcement gets that on some really deep level at 423 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: the top, not all the rank and file, not all 424 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: the sheriffs, not all the rural folks. So it's not 425 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: the full profession by any means, and not the union's heads, 426 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: who are often not representative of the rank and file 427 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 1: that they're supposed to represent. But there is a class 428 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: of law enforcement who's been saying now for decades, get 429 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: us out of the places where you couldn't possibly train 430 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: us to be shrink the size of what you're investing 431 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: here and give it to someplace else. They don't like 432 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: the idea of their budgets really shrinking because they already 433 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: feel too stretched. They will get okay with it when 434 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: they no longer get asked to be responsive to all 435 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: of these other columns. And if they don't get okay 436 00:24:50,680 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: with it, that's okay too. You've both talked about the 437 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: power of a smaller group of people to get the 438 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: outcomes that feel more humane and more just and what 439 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: we would all want for ourselves. I'm looking for examples. 440 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: Can you share something about what people have been able 441 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: to accomplish in this arena that could give people like 442 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: me and anyone who's listening a bit more faith in 443 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: ourselves to change the direction of all that. Yeah, I mean, 444 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: the first thing I'll say is, like the sky will 445 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: now fall, we can actually close prisons and increase public safety. 446 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: And I have an example to prove it. When I 447 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: first came out law school, I worked as an organizer 448 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: with the Ala Baker Center, talking with families of incarcerated 449 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: youth and young people were being isolated twenty three hours 450 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: a day for weeks and months on end, Families driving 451 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: two fifty miles just to see their kids, only to 452 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: be told they couldn't visit because they had on the 453 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: wrong color pair of pants or because their kid was 454 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: on lock down. Unsurprisingly, giving these conditions, three out of 455 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: four young people were being re arrested within like a year. 456 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: And the state was spending over a hundred and fifty 457 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: thousand dollars per year per young person on this system. 458 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: And so parents and grandparents and others said, we need 459 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: to close these youth prisons down, um, and this is 460 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: not you know, five years ago, this was turn of 461 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: the century youth super predator time period. I personally was like, 462 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: I don't know we can do that, but I had 463 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 1: the good sense to listen to my elders. We organized, 464 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: We got what started as a dozen families became over 465 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: a thousand families. We went to the capitol in Sacramento. 466 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: We were persistent and insistent. We brought those statistics to them, 467 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,959 Speaker 1: and the recession helped also, and over a ten year period, 468 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: we closed five of eight youth prisons, and guess what, 469 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: Youth crime continued to decline during that same period as 470 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: we were closing down youth prisons. Now, the Nerve California 471 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: wants to close the remaining three youth prisons um and 472 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: we want to ensure that that is done right. But 473 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: it shows that we can actually do something different. We 474 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: can do something different not only when it comes to 475 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: non violent offenses, but also quite frankly, when it comes 476 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: to violence as well. I'll stop there, but I want 477 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: to speak more about kind of violence and the possibility 478 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: of taking a public health approach as it relates to 479 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: that as well. I will just say, like, never doubt 480 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: that a small group of people, as Margaret Mead or 481 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: somebody said, can make a huge difference, right because, like, 482 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: nobody believed that this group of moms and grandmothers who 483 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 1: were derided as the welfare queens, who were believed to 484 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 1: be the problem, could have made this change, and in 485 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: coordination with the Youth Justice Coalition and amazing organizations, we 486 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: were able to shut these youth prisons down and increase 487 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: public safety through that process. I really appreciate you sharing 488 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: that story and reminding us, you know, I think there's 489 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: a model of change that a lot of us digest, 490 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: which says, well, we got to get a billionaire. We 491 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: did our own like Mec warrior, you know, to come 492 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: in and fight on our behalf in this battle. And 493 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 1: you're like, these are moms and grandmothers. I'm sure a 494 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: lot of Latin X and Black moms and grandmothers who 495 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: people in the State House and Sacramento are used to 496 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: regularly not having to pay attention to because they don't 497 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: pay a lot of property tax and they don't necessarily 498 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: vote regularly because they don't give to campaigns because they 499 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: can't afford to show up. And to be clear, that 500 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: was part of the strategy because just by going to 501 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: the capital and showing up and saying we are desperately 502 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,959 Speaker 1: trying to support our children and grandchildren, we were pushing 503 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: back on decades and centuries of misinformation and structural racism 504 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: and just racism, as Ebrahm KNDy reminds us, to just 505 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: just call it racism. And so, you know, so much 506 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: of the de humanization comes from separating families, and we 507 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: were pushing back against that very intentionally. Bill, do you 508 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: have a story of the power of people in some 509 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: of these communities you're working with potentially to actually achieve 510 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: a different outcome, a better outcome for more Yeah, I 511 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: think that. I mean, when we work in communities, that's 512 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: all that we accumulate is we accumulate stories of people 513 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: being more powerful than the systems that the rest of 514 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: the world feels like define them. Um. I think that 515 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: there's a really popular one that everyone has access to. UM. 516 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: But I think it's easy to forget in this moment, 517 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: which is at the height of the stop question. Fris 518 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: regime and NYPD, for every one hundred thousand black males 519 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: between the age of sixteen and thirty five, they were 520 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: stopping a hundred and eighty nine thousand a year. That's okay, 521 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: So mathematically they were stopping brothers twice or five times. Yeah, 522 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: so you would get stop multiple times per year if 523 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: you were in that age and raise demographic. That's I'm 524 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: not a mathematician, but wait, I am a mathetician. So 525 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: that's too many that the definition of that is just 526 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: too damn many times. And the explanation was, well, this 527 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: is what we have to do because crime is so 528 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: out of control in those neighborhoods. So then they stopped 529 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: because the court said stop, and crime continued to go down, 530 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: violence continue to go down, and they said, well, you 531 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: wait for it. You make us keep doing this, and 532 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: it's gonna go back up again. So now what we 533 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: see is as murders go up across the country, everybody saying, well, 534 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: see we told you so, come on, man, you don't 535 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: get an eight year window to decide that eventually, like 536 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: something ablet's take up. And that's what that's sort of 537 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: the moment that we're in. The thing I actually want 538 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: to point to though, because that's the example of look, 539 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: we don't have to be doing policing this way. That's 540 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: an easy example of that. There are two things I 541 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: want to point to that give me hope right now. 542 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: One is the Community Navigators program actually in Minneapolis. And 543 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: here's why it gives me hope. So you and I 544 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: we talked about this, but it's it's usually not for 545 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: camera that One of the things that I'm most passionate 546 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: about in my job is dealing with the survivors of 547 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: sexual assault, the survivors of the most intimate forms of 548 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: violence and the second worst thing, and for some of them, 549 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: even the worst thing that happens to folks who are 550 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: survivors is they have to explain to somebody, no, I 551 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: didn't want it. Yeah, we had had a relationship at 552 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: this time. I was clear. I think I was clear. 553 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: Why does it matter what I'm wearing? It doesn't matter 554 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: how much I was drinking. Those are the questions of 555 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: the person who's supposed to protect you. Was taking your 556 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: reports into the state can advocate on your behalf. It 557 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: is such a violence, the things we put people through, 558 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: So why do it. You can send social workers whose 559 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: job it is to connect people to the services. They're 560 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: gonna make them whole as people first and say when 561 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: you're ready, and that might not be today, I can 562 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: take a report, will be the legal report. But before 563 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: we have to do any of that, how are you doing? 564 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: What do you need? Are you talking to somebody about it? 565 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: How's your support? So the response to crime, the response 566 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: to violence, doesn't need someone armed for violence, and that 567 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: basic recognition that policing doesn't have to show up whenever 568 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: there's the trace of violence, especially violence has already left 569 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: the scene. That allows us to imagine a more humane 570 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: response to the people who were experiencing violence, who are 571 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: survivors of it. So that's the first thing that makes 572 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: me hopeful, and that that inspires me because that's people 573 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: saying people should be responsive to this. The second thing is, 574 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: so the Monday after Minneapolis City Council said all right, 575 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: we're disbanding the police department, the charity counsel comes out 576 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: and says, hey, would you mind if we tap y'all 577 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: to be one of people who helps do this. There 578 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: was five minutes before Rachel Maddow and she was gonna 579 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: go on right before me, and I was like, I 580 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: guess okay, by and then she went on and said, 581 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: by the way, we're going to do this, Rachel Maddow 582 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: asked me. I was like, yeah, if you're gonna do 583 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: that thing that they said, that's how that's a great 584 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: negotiating tactic you're in now. That's how he got to 585 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: be chairley Council. So that week we got nine fifty 586 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: calls from different cities, and there was chiefs and community 587 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: members and mayors and city councils all saying, we want 588 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: to be responsive to this moment because we get we've 589 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: been doing public safety wrong. But how so we started 590 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: putting together a roadmap, and the road map is not 591 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: this is what to do. The road map is do 592 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: this and then you'll be better positioned to make an 593 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: informed decision. It's literally who's calling for police? What services 594 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: are people calling for? Where are they going when they're 595 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: on their own? What neighborhoods are blinded by crime, and 596 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: which ones are blinded by police surveillance but not crime. 597 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: Those are the places where you should be investing resources. 598 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: And you do those four steps and all of a 599 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: sudden you have a map of Okay, this is what 600 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: they do and where they go. Do we want them 601 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: to do that? Considering that in some of these communities 602 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: it's less than ten percent of the time that they're 603 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: spent is on els at all, that allows for some 604 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: reasonable response And the thing that makes me excited. We 605 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: unveiled this with the Obama Foundation a couple of weeks ago. 606 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: I did it live last week on the TV. We've 607 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: had dozens of cities and we're not waiting for you 608 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: all to come in. These things like things we can do, 609 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: we're doing them. And they're like, oh, now that I 610 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: see the numbers, we have things to do so that 611 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: instead of waiting around, there's a roadmap to go. Because 612 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: of course it's going to take time, but everybody should 613 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: also be reasonably expected to be tired of waiting. Four 614 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: hundred plus years for this right so that people want 615 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: to pick it up, that they're taking it and running it. 616 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: That's exciting to me. What's a way in that you've 617 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: seen work that's someone who's not a full time activist 618 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: or full time in this work it can do to 619 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: be a part of this to help make public safety 620 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: more public and more on the safety. Yeah. Um, the 621 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: first thing I would say is I wanna lift up 622 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: that we can actually respond to violence and a public 623 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: health way. Also, I want to lift up the work 624 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: of Devone Bogan in Richmond. Richmond had one of the 625 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,919 Speaker 1: highest per capital murder rates around two thousand and five. 626 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: He came in, developed a mentorship program and supported these 627 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: thirty young men who the police believed were responsible for 628 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: some seventy of the crime, and over I think an 629 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: eight year period helped reduce homicides by some seventy And 630 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: it was profoundly simple in the sense that he was like, 631 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: what do my children need? What do my adolescent children need? 632 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: And basically designed a fellowship program around that to provide 633 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: them with monthly stiplings, positive mentorship, and travel opportunities. And 634 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: as these young men were invested in, as they saw 635 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: themselves as part of the solution, rather than being derided 636 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: as part of the problem. They really helped usher in 637 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: a wave of peace in the city of Richmond. The 638 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: work he does is now called Advanced Peace UM. And 639 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: that wasn't just instrumental for them, that was instrumental for 640 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: moms and grandmothers who was trying to go to the 641 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: park down the street, for shopkeepers who wanted to keep 642 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: their businesses open. And this didn't come through primarily a 643 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement response, but really just asking people who were 644 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: believed to be responsible for the violence in a city, 645 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: what needs to be done? Who do you have beef with? 646 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: How do we resolve those issues? And it had a 647 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: tremendous impact and effect. And so some of what we're 648 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: saying that people can be doing in this moment is 649 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: just be good neighbors. Understand that when someone comes through 650 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: your community who maybe you don't recognize, maybe the first 651 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: thing if there are darker skin color than you don't 652 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: call the police. Don't do that. Don't be that neighbor. 653 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: And one of the ways in which we're promoting this 654 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: kind of different ethos around community safety is through an 655 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: event we call Night Out for Safety and Liberation every 656 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,879 Speaker 1: year since the eighties, police have done this event called 657 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: National Night Out, which I think has the right spirit 658 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: behind it. I'm gonna be real. It has the right spirit, 659 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: which is, you know, community members reclaiming safety. But I 660 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: think too often police bring a very narrow definition of 661 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: what community members should do to promote safety. They say, 662 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: you're the eyes and ears of the police, and if 663 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: you see something, say something which results in George Zimmerman 664 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: murdering Trayvon Mark, it results in the kinds of calls 665 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: that you know, this woman did too call the police 666 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: on this bird watcher. It is that kind of culture 667 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: of suspicion that I think we need to move away from. 668 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: And so Night Out for Safety and Liberation is an 669 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: opportunity for people to reclaim community safety in a more 670 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: holistic way, to recognize that we have hearts, we have hands, 671 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: we have minds, we have a lot of things that 672 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: we can do to contribute to community safety. And this 673 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: year it will be on October six. There's some thirty 674 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: cities participated last year, and it's growing every year. So 675 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 1: we're really encouraging folks, especially especially in this year when 676 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: the two visions of safety are on such full display 677 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: that he keeps us safe lie of Donald Trump, which 678 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: is quite frankly, an abusive lie. It's the lie that says, 679 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: only trust me, even while you're doing the dirt and 680 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: causing the harm scapegoats entire communities and individuals. We reject 681 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: that lie. We believe that we keep us safe, that 682 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: all of us contribute to community safety, and that's the 683 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: vision we're bringing with Night Out for Safety and Liberation. 684 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: So one of the things that people can do is 685 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: just contribute and get involved in that event. We're gonna 686 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,439 Speaker 1: go to questions. First up, we have Sarah Hughes. Where 687 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: are you in and what's your question? I'm in Rochester, 688 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: New York, and I wanted to ask a question about 689 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: the basic design structures within our society being fundamentally hierarchical, 690 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: and if that is something that you think may have 691 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: contributed to power and balances because it's designed in a 692 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: way that aggregates power at the top. I'm curious to 693 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: know to what extent you think that is a factor, 694 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: and also in what ways this conversation might be informed 695 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: by reimagining the models. So I'll go ahead and hit 696 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: that one first. Um. Yes, also, yes, I don't know 697 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: if that's enough specificity for you. Um, So I'll expand 698 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: just a little bit. It just it wouldn't make sense 699 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: for law enforcement to continue to engage in these behaviors 700 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: if there weren't people who said, yeah, that's about right right. 701 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: And let's keep in mind that in many communities nine 702 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: one one is a larger driver of contact between law 703 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: enforcement and communities that are officer initiated, which means that 704 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: law enforcement ends up serving as the personal racism concierge 705 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: um for Karen's all over the world. If it weren't okay, 706 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be that way. So the question is how 707 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: many people are okay with it and what levels of 708 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: power to the folks who aren't okay with it have 709 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: to pull Because clearly there are communities that say that 710 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: we've had enough. I think pretty much everybody who's in 711 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: the audience here is that we've had enough, but we're 712 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: not enough to get that done at least we haven't been. 713 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: So that means we change tactics, change strategies, We have 714 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: a different approach to how them to leverage our power, 715 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: which is why we see folks out in the streets 716 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: six seventy days in a row, unprecedented in US history. 717 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: That's a way of engaging in democracy, and we put 718 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: pressure on the people who do feel that discomfort only 719 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: when we put pressure there. But remember that the Dick 720 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: Wolf Show is not law. It's law and work. And 721 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: the ordered part is the problem. Because if I am 722 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: empowered to keep order, and my idea of order is 723 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: the social hierarchy as it stands, I'm allowed to use 724 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: force when you step out of line. And that's the 725 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 1: that's the gospel truth for law enforcement, right, is that 726 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: they're also order enforcement. So again, yes, real quick, because 727 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: it's racism, but it's also patriarchy. We live in a 728 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: society that undervalues taking care of people, and all of 729 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: the caring profession, from teaching to health care to so 730 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: many other things that actually are about safety are underfunded 731 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: and under resource and that is as a result of 732 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: that form of human hierarchy. Thank you, Zack. That's a 733 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: great addition. Um and creating more of a culture of 734 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: care is something that we should do. So thank you, Sarah, 735 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: Thank you Phil, Thank you Zack. Next up, Jesse Fable, Well, 736 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: let us know where you are and then what's your 737 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: question you're topic. I'm in Minneapolis, so it's it's been 738 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: a whirlwind, but been engaged, been excited, and there's a 739 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: lot of work from organizations like Reclaim the Block about 740 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: changing the city charter, taking the police off, putting community 741 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: safety and violence prevention in. And I'm wondering what all 742 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: of you I think, is this the appropriate first step? 743 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: Is this necessary for change to even happen? Where is 744 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: it pretty mature? So as a scientist, as one of 745 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: the nation's leading experts on these issues, it's really important 746 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: for me to say clearly, I have no idea. I 747 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: don't know what the right next steps are because I 748 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: have a sense of what the goal is. Everybody wants 749 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: to live in a community where no one has to 750 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: call the police, right. Police want to live in that community. 751 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: They understand that that's their job to put themselves out 752 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 1: of business in a certain kind of way, though that's 753 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: not how they're run. They understand concepts of that's their job. 754 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 1: And everybody understands that we should have more options when 755 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: we're in crisis than just imagine a gun, right or 756 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: imagine a gun an ambulance for a fire truck. Like 757 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: we understand that, but how do we get there? I 758 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 1: don't know what I will say is it's both incumbent 759 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: upon us to move quickly and not to rush. Four 760 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: d plus years worth of oppression deserves a plan, like 761 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: you should put a plan in place, and it should 762 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: be one that's based both in something you can communicate 763 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: clearly and message clearly with it with a community and 764 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: that's got some kind of evidence nearby, but it won't 765 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: be evidence on what's worked because we've not done this before. 766 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,720 Speaker 1: We've not managed to change across what I would encourage 767 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: folks to do in terms of as we move through 768 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: these processes, it's okay to demand. So how are you 769 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: going to deal with violence? Right? How are you going 770 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: to deal with the current staffing issues that you've got, 771 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: and how are you gonna know that? On the other 772 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: side of this, you have given to these vulnerable communities 773 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: a definition of public safety that they agree with, because 774 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: if they don't feel safe, guess who's not calling the cops. 775 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: And in a neighborhood where no one wants to call 776 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: the cops, that is a great place to crime. Right. 777 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 1: If I wanted to crime, I would crime in places 778 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,879 Speaker 1: where no one wanted to report crime, and that means 779 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: everybody is less safe. In the same way that you 780 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,400 Speaker 1: have these small communities that can't social distance and now 781 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: everybody's sick, right, the social networks that spread violence are 782 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: literally the exact same. We have these small communities where 783 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: they can't get out of the crimes trap and the 784 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: violence trap, and it spreads. Suicide spreads that way, done 785 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: violent spreads that way. Virus spreads that way. We could 786 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: be using these same systems to trace back the virus 787 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: to identify the folks most at risk for other kinds 788 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 1: of violence. We don't. You can demand that, and that's 789 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: the best we're gonna do. Make sure that they're tracking 790 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: it enough so that they can say we did this 791 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: and we messed up, because otherwise they're going to claim 792 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: that they want and the other side's gonna claim they 793 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: lost either way. And I would just say, don't keep 794 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: doing the same allocation or misallocation of resources, especially in 795 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: the context of a coming depression due to COVID. We 796 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: see municipality still giving the line share of their resources 797 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: to sheriff's department, rather than understanding we're gonna have a 798 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,280 Speaker 1: ton of homeless people, We're gonna have people who are hungry, 799 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: and we need to actually this is the rainy day. 800 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: We need to fund people's survival. The other thing I'd 801 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,879 Speaker 1: add is like Crises Act in California is an act 802 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: to create sort of a pilot program for a different 803 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: form of response to emergencies that people would be able 804 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 1: to call upon and in those communities where people don't 805 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: feel safe calling the police would have a different access 806 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: and resource that has to be funded and scaled and publicized. 807 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,319 Speaker 1: How people know about it. Rabbi Jenny coming up next. 808 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: I think it's the first time I've ever had a 809 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 1: rabbi call into the show. I feel so special. Rabbi Jenny, 810 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: let us know where you are and what's your question. 811 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: I'm calling in from Santa Fe, New Mexico, and my 812 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: question is for community leaders like myself, what do we 813 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: do in situations where we need support in terms of security. 814 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: Because the Jewish community, I know, the Muslim community, and 815 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are other communities, we're constantly under various 816 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: kinds of threats and we need help to protect ourselves. 817 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: But at the same time, don't want to be complicit 818 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: with the police structure. Also, we don't want to put 819 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: our members of color under any kind of threat to 820 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: either themselves physically or emotionally when they come into the 821 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: communities and if they see police officers, whether they're in 822 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,800 Speaker 1: uniform or not. So my question is, how can we 823 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 1: provide adequate security for our members without getting into this 824 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:45,520 Speaker 1: complicit relationship. It's a fantastic question. And the model that 825 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: I might turn to is the way that schools have 826 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: started to remove law enforcement because they're also concerned They 827 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: got outside of folks who are not in the school, 828 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: particularly concerns about gang affiliation. So what do you do? Well, 829 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: they some have hired private secure already, and it turns 830 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: out that does a lot of the same things that 831 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: law enforcement does. Right, someone said, well, we'll keep the 832 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 1: law enforcement, will push them further out. That means that 833 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: they're further away from the violence when it happens. But 834 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: there are models in Phoenix and in Detroit and in 835 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: Houston where what they do is they make outreach to 836 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: the very folks they're concerned about committing acts of violence, 837 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: and they say, what is it that we need to 838 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 1: do to make sure that you are safe as you 839 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 1: approach our community. And they talk to the folks who 840 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: are the targets and say, who are you afraid of 841 00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: and they build a bridge where the folks who are 842 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: most aligned with that violence, folks who are most concerned 843 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,280 Speaker 1: about having violence done, they're essentially community interrupters of that violence. 844 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: And so it's a kind of radical love where you're 845 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: doing outreach two groups where you've got concerned the violence 846 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 1: is happening, like you stet folks up as protection but 847 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: from community. Now that can happen in places where the 848 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,320 Speaker 1: violence is fists and clubs and knives. It's much harder 849 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: when you have organizations that are dedicated to the termination 850 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,400 Speaker 1: of the group of people inside the building. There are 851 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: not radical anti high schoolers in the way that there 852 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: are radical anti semites, right, So that model doesn't work everywhere. 853 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: But knowing your enemy, as so many people who are 854 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,800 Speaker 1: survivors of violence already do, is often the right model 855 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: in the context of anti Semitism or anti blackness for 856 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: churches that are concerned about that. I don't know that 857 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: there's a model that I love that solves it, in 858 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,359 Speaker 1: part because we have just so many guns, and it's 859 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: so very difficult to protect against guns without armor and 860 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: guns of your own. And this is a place where 861 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: many people do end up going back to a form 862 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: of law enforcement, which is off duty. They're working at 863 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,800 Speaker 1: the behest of the folks local, but there's not a 864 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: perfect solve. Which is part of the work that frankly 865 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:50,840 Speaker 1: Zach has been doing so well for so long is 866 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,879 Speaker 1: building these bridges between these areas. But we don't solve 867 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: mass incarceration without talking about violence, and we don't solve 868 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: the problems of violence without talking about access to guns. 869 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: These are the same issue. So for you, I would 870 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: say again in my most full throated from my chef voice, 871 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, but there are models of community violence 872 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: interruption that, depending on where the threats are coming from, 873 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,839 Speaker 1: you might want to invest. Again, I'm happy to talk 874 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: to you offline on that, and I want to acknowledge 875 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: and appreciate you name in the gun issue, Phil The 876 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: United States is a nation of guns, populated with a 877 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: few people as well. And I think there is a 878 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:31,160 Speaker 1: lurking truth around this whole conversation of public safety and 879 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: policing that guns are a major player in the fear 880 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 1: that is often cited, not unreasonably by law enforcement officers, 881 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 1: fear for my life. You know, you look at the 882 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: distribution of calls for police and maybe four or five 883 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: percent or explicitly violence in the headline. Then it's like 884 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,359 Speaker 1: traffic stop is a domestic dispute, but a gun could 885 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,080 Speaker 1: be anywhere, you know. So it's like, well, if any 886 00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,360 Speaker 1: interaction is potentially a violent interaction, And I guess I 887 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,840 Speaker 1: understand why you need a grenade, maybe not a grenade 888 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 1: launch that still feels a little whild, but like a shield. 889 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,400 Speaker 1: And so I don't have an answer either, but I 890 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: do think they're intertwined. As you said, they're connected, and 891 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: to create the public safety we want, we're going to 892 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,920 Speaker 1: also have to contend with our long term addiction and 893 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,839 Speaker 1: obsession with this wild easy access to firearms, which has 894 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,760 Speaker 1: made us all less safe and a culture of violence. 895 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 1: If we're being really you know, I think we exists 896 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: in a country that has glorified violence in different ways, 897 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,920 Speaker 1: and it's about shifting that culture in addition to shifting 898 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,439 Speaker 1: the actual availability of guns, you know. And I'm looking 899 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,080 Speaker 1: at the time. I know Barntona is gonna have the 900 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:44,840 Speaker 1: last word, but I'm gonna go ahead and take this 901 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,239 Speaker 1: little hand off here because I think this is one 902 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,319 Speaker 1: of the central issues moving forward. I talked about it before. 903 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,000 Speaker 1: You can't solve massa carceration without dealing with violence, because 904 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: most folks are not who are in prisons and jails 905 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,960 Speaker 1: are not low level nonviolent drug arrests. Like, that's just 906 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: not the reality of who's being put into cages. If 907 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 1: we don't deal with how we think about violence, then 908 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,400 Speaker 1: all we're gonna have. We have a bunch of platitudes, 909 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 1: a bunch of incremental elements on our entire penal system. 910 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 1: But anybody does something that gets categorized as violent, by 911 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: the way, breaking into a home where there isn't anybody 912 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,000 Speaker 1: that gets categorized as violent, right, that's gonna be how 913 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: we get caught up and how we fail to meet 914 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: this moment. So like, if I'm thinking about what I 915 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,839 Speaker 1: want everybody who's listening and watching and here with us 916 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: in real time or later to be doing, I think 917 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,800 Speaker 1: the most important thing is don't look away. We have 918 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: just begun to scratch the surface, and the only way 919 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 1: to the light through one of these moments is through 920 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,800 Speaker 1: a pile of bodies. There will be another and another 921 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,800 Speaker 1: and another. And if we get discouraged or dispirited in 922 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,920 Speaker 1: this moment with just this, that we weren't worthy of 923 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: the journey and if we're trying to make a more 924 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,839 Speaker 1: perfect union, if this is a national or even if 925 00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: this is a spiritual journey for individuals, we can't look away. 926 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,280 Speaker 1: I remember very clearly Alton Sterling killed Baton Rouge, groups 927 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 1: of people who loved him, who cared for him. I 928 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 1: still get text messages every two to three weeks from folks. Right, 929 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 1: that's four years later talking about the cameras one away, 930 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,000 Speaker 1: But I'm not done. When Gwen Carr and Sabrina Fulton 931 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,800 Speaker 1: talk about their loved ones they lost to police violence. 932 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,719 Speaker 1: The second most painful moment after hearing that news was 933 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,239 Speaker 1: when the cameras turned away, and we didn't sustain the 934 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,480 Speaker 1: efforts to get ourselves educated and to be ready for 935 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,600 Speaker 1: the next one. So we're showing up like we're brand 936 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 1: new to this, when as a nation, we're not brand 937 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 1: new to this. This is every couple of days. It's 938 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 1: just every thirty or so years we decided to care 939 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 1: and decided to say that this is going to be 940 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: the time. We've now heard that every single time. And 941 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,800 Speaker 1: I want to remind us into immediately after what happened 942 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 1: in the uprising in l A, we got the ninety 943 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 1: four Crime Bill, in two years later. We got Trump right. 944 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,719 Speaker 1: In the late sixties when the police reform was the thing, 945 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,319 Speaker 1: as was prisident jail reform. We don't keep that when 946 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:55,680 Speaker 1: we talked about some rights moment, but it was a 947 00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,880 Speaker 1: major thing. You know what we got nixing. These moments 948 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:04,480 Speaker 1: are immediately followed by regressions of great moral vulgarity in 949 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: this nation's history. And if we look away now, if 950 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: we don't get ourselves mostly prepared for what's next, I 951 00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,680 Speaker 1: am very concerned that we will see the same thing 952 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm your six years after furtherisson. Thank you for that, 953 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 1: Phil Zack. Is there anything you want to offer up 954 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:25,280 Speaker 1: for people to do to be constructive, to be committed 955 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,080 Speaker 1: on this moral journey? I appreciate the question. Cornell West 956 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,560 Speaker 1: said that you know, justice is what love looks like 957 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,799 Speaker 1: in public, and Stevie Wonder said love is in need 958 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 1: of love today and saying it so beautifully. And I 959 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 1: just know that the hearts of the folks on this 960 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,680 Speaker 1: call who have called in want to see a nation 961 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,680 Speaker 1: that is just and that is beautiful and that is loving. 962 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,359 Speaker 1: And part of that, I think is resetting our priorities. 963 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 1: And I know that money doesn't move everything, but we 964 00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,360 Speaker 1: do need a reset of our values through our budgets 965 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:05,000 Speaker 1: and to actually fund the things that keep us safe, food, clothes, shelter, etcetera. 966 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: So much of the violence often stems from people not 967 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 1: having enough, and that's not all forms of violence, but 968 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,560 Speaker 1: that is a critical aspect of it. And I think 969 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,640 Speaker 1: we can do better to take care of the public 970 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:24,239 Speaker 1: and therefore to take care of public safety. I've been 971 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,879 Speaker 1: dreaming of this conversation for a while and I want 972 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:31,000 Speaker 1: to thank Zack Nora's Dr Phil Goff. I appreciate you 973 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,600 Speaker 1: as a friend, as a citizen, as a brother. Thank 974 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,239 Speaker 1: you for for what you both have been doing, and 975 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,120 Speaker 1: thanks for giving so generously of your perspective in your time. 976 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:44,480 Speaker 1: Just now I feel charged. I think I feel motivated 977 00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 1: and a little immobile at the same time. They're the wave. 978 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,480 Speaker 1: Phil talked about this pattern and his ask of us 979 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: to don't look away the idea that he's still in 980 00:54:54,360 --> 00:55:00,720 Speaker 1: communication with previous involuntary martyrs or the family is thereof 981 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,920 Speaker 1: It's very humbling and very emotional and very real thing. 982 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:10,840 Speaker 1: Zach said, public safety starts with public health, and nowhere 983 00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,520 Speaker 1: could that and should that be more clear than in 984 00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,880 Speaker 1: the middle of a pandemic. Our moral values are our 985 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,640 Speaker 1: budget documents, as revealing of our morality is made clear. 986 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,000 Speaker 1: We have prioritized certain choices over others. We have prioritized 987 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,640 Speaker 1: riot shields of a face shields and gas masks of nine. 988 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:36,480 Speaker 1: We have prioritized arrests over stopping the spread and arresting 989 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,759 Speaker 1: the course of a virus. We have prioritized punishment and 990 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 1: that form of pain overhealing and true accountability. And we've 991 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,839 Speaker 1: often done it in the name of victims who are 992 00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,400 Speaker 1: nowhere present in the form of justice that we have 993 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,800 Speaker 1: practiced most of the time, there are hints. Phil reminded 994 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,960 Speaker 1: us that the suburbs show us a little window, a 995 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: little more wakanda, a glimpse of what is possible. But 996 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,440 Speaker 1: even there there is unrest in the spirit, and is 997 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:10,200 Speaker 1: not entirely the vision that we want. And Zach reminded 998 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,080 Speaker 1: us that the most dismissed can often be at the 999 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,400 Speaker 1: center of change. The mothers and the grandmothers who are 1000 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,960 Speaker 1: so easily overlooked might have more power when they show up. 1001 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,960 Speaker 1: Maybe they even doubted their power in the moment. But 1002 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: now we have evidence to show the closure of youth 1003 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 1: detension centers and prisons in the state of California as 1004 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,920 Speaker 1: crime continued to fall. And I am deeply humbled by 1005 00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,480 Speaker 1: the acknowledgement and the role of guns and all of this. 1006 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:40,880 Speaker 1: I don't pretend that this is easy, that you just 1007 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,839 Speaker 1: flip a switch. You take the money from the cops 1008 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,759 Speaker 1: and you put it into the counselors and shazam new 1009 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,239 Speaker 1: great society, instant society. No no, no, no no. It's 1010 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,279 Speaker 1: taken a long time to create this perverse structure that 1011 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,040 Speaker 1: we're living in calling public safety. It's gonna take a 1012 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,440 Speaker 1: while to unravel it, and guns will need to be 1013 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,200 Speaker 1: a part of that unraveling. And so I asked that 1014 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,880 Speaker 1: we contend with that, that we not look away from 1015 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,960 Speaker 1: that either, and then we not look away from each other. Um, 1016 00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:17,520 Speaker 1: there is there is great promise in this moment. There's 1017 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: great work ahead. There's more tears that are gonna come. 1018 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,800 Speaker 1: And the good news is there's more of us that 1019 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,960 Speaker 1: have yet to really step into the ring. And so 1020 00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 1: I am hardened by the idea that if more of 1021 00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:39,080 Speaker 1: us did that, we get more done. Hey you, it's 1022 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:43,520 Speaker 1: me again, It's just us, And I want to say 1023 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,320 Speaker 1: we are living in a dark time in so many ways, 1024 00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:51,920 Speaker 1: especially in the area of policing, punishment, and public safety. 1025 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,680 Speaker 1: Yet there is good news closed youth prisons in California, 1026 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: reallocation of resources for sexual salt survivors in Minneapolis, the 1027 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,400 Speaker 1: end of stopping frisk techniques in New York City, and 1028 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,600 Speaker 1: the creation of restorative justice models we want to fund, 1029 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,320 Speaker 1: not just bad policing models we want to defund. If 1030 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,720 Speaker 1: you have examples of positive, non punitive public safety in 1031 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:21,120 Speaker 1: your community, send them to us at comments at how 1032 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,120 Speaker 1: to citizen dot com. On a personal note, I am 1033 00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,560 Speaker 1: so happy to have had that conversation with Zach and Phil. 1034 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 1: At the same time, I have known them both since 1035 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,720 Speaker 1: we were college freshmen in and I'm amazed at what 1036 00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,680 Speaker 1: they've helped create in the world. I consider them both 1037 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: to be model citizens. Now it's your term. In each episode, 1038 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,200 Speaker 1: we share things you can do internally and externally to 1039 00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,600 Speaker 1: strengthen your citizen practice. Don't worry about remembering all the details. 1040 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,440 Speaker 1: We post them on how to citizen dot com for 1041 00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:59,880 Speaker 1: this episode keeping us safe. Beyond policing, here's what you 1042 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:04,720 Speaker 1: can do for internal actions. Now. These are things that 1043 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:09,280 Speaker 1: help you become more aware, more empathetic, more knowledgeable and 1044 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,600 Speaker 1: are a key step in how to citizen before you 1045 00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,120 Speaker 1: go trapes and off into the world telling other folks 1046 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,760 Speaker 1: what to do. Here are some options for internal actions. 1047 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,280 Speaker 1: It starts with you, so we want you to explore 1048 00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,440 Speaker 1: your own relationship to feeling safe and living among your neighbors. 1049 00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,120 Speaker 1: Here are a set of questions you can answer. What 1050 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,560 Speaker 1: do you need to feel safe in your community? What 1051 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,800 Speaker 1: makes you feel unsafe in your community? How do you 1052 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,160 Speaker 1: get to know your neighbors? When was the last time 1053 00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,120 Speaker 1: you even made eye contact with a neighbor? Has a 1054 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,200 Speaker 1: neighbor ever made you feel unsafe? What happened and what 1055 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,600 Speaker 1: would have made it better? Another option for internal actions, 1056 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:51,840 Speaker 1: and we're channeling Dr Phil Goff here, don't look away. 1057 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:57,240 Speaker 1: Get educated on how policing works where you live. Here's 1058 00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:01,320 Speaker 1: a set of things you should find out. How much 1059 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,000 Speaker 1: of your city and county budget go to the police. 1060 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,640 Speaker 1: What percentage of this would rank? Is this for all 1061 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,760 Speaker 1: the spending? Who actually runs law enforcement in your area? 1062 01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,880 Speaker 1: Is it a commissioner, a chief, a sheriff who pays 1063 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 1: their bills? What's your most local access to law enforcement? 1064 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 1: Do you even know where the closest precinct is? And 1065 01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:24,640 Speaker 1: who's already working on addressing the challenges in this area 1066 01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:30,080 Speaker 1: where you live. Identify who's responsible for and makes public 1067 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,960 Speaker 1: safety decisions where you live, and find out which positions 1068 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,640 Speaker 1: get voted on. Lastly, in this area, when is the 1069 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:43,360 Speaker 1: next election for these positions in your community, who's running, 1070 01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,560 Speaker 1: who aligns with your values? And the final option on 1071 01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:53,800 Speaker 1: internal actions. This comes from Zach. Inspired by Zach Good Neighbors, 1072 01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 1: don't just call the cops. Know who you can call 1073 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:01,960 Speaker 1: instead of the police. Create resource, a list of numbers 1074 01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,320 Speaker 1: you can keep on hand or enter into your phone. 1075 01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:06,880 Speaker 1: We have a great example in the show notes of 1076 01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,920 Speaker 1: this for non police resources to intervene in certain public 1077 01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:16,800 Speaker 1: safety challenges. As a bonus, you could create these alternative 1078 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:21,320 Speaker 1: guides physically and digitally and share them with your neighbors, 1079 01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:26,600 Speaker 1: local businesses, and even beyond. Now for some external actions, 1080 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:31,000 Speaker 1: we've got three groups that you can work with, take 1081 01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,680 Speaker 1: their lead, and lend your assistance to their efforts to 1082 01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 1: keep us safer. Dr Phil Goff's Center for Policing Equity 1083 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,280 Speaker 1: has published a roadmap for exploring new models of funding 1084 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,000 Speaker 1: public safety. It's been requested by over nine hundred fifty 1085 01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,400 Speaker 1: cities across the country. It's a great starting point in 1086 01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:55,280 Speaker 1: his organization has high credibility with law enforcement and with 1087 01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,960 Speaker 1: community activists, So check that out and find out if 1088 01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:03,360 Speaker 1: your community is mind up. Lend your voice to Campaign Zero, 1089 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,720 Speaker 1: another effort to fix what's broken and policing in our country. 1090 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,360 Speaker 1: Support its nationwide campaign to end police Violence. They have 1091 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,000 Speaker 1: a tool right on their website where you can track 1092 01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:19,640 Speaker 1: legislation and see where your state sits in that progress bar. 1093 01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,440 Speaker 1: And the last external group is what Zach mentioned. You 1094 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:26,800 Speaker 1: can join or create an event as part of the 1095 01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,320 Speaker 1: Night Out for Safety and Liberation. That data is October 1096 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,200 Speaker 1: six this year. And if you don't feel comfortable going 1097 01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:37,360 Speaker 1: out physically, there are online ways to also support this effort. 1098 01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,400 Speaker 1: There's even a discussion guide that you can run with 1099 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,600 Speaker 1: your family, your community, your company about what safety means 1100 01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:48,160 Speaker 1: for your community. Lastly, there's a an app and a 1101 01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,160 Speaker 1: tool built by the American Civil Liberties Union that encourages 1102 01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:57,120 Speaker 1: us to be supportive bystanders and report on police interactions. 1103 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: The a c LU has made this easy their mobile 1104 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:05,040 Speaker 1: Justice app. Justice seems to depend more and more on 1105 01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:09,440 Speaker 1: bystanders recording interactions. It's how we know so much of 1106 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,560 Speaker 1: what is wrong again, check the show notes for all 1107 01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,880 Speaker 1: these details, or you can, you know, scroll back and 1108 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,080 Speaker 1: play this again. If you'd rather have me say it 1109 01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:21,360 Speaker 1: out loud to you, I could understand that. We are 1110 01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:24,680 Speaker 1: so grateful to Zach Norris and Dr Phil Goff for 1111 01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:29,360 Speaker 1: helping us expand our definition of public safety. Visit Policing 1112 01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Equity dot org to explore Phil's organization, or at Policing 1113 01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: Equity on social media, and you can find him on 1114 01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:42,439 Speaker 1: Twitter at Dr Phil Goff. That's two f's. For Zach's work, 1115 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,600 Speaker 1: visit Ella Baker Center dot org or at Ella Baker 1116 01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:50,720 Speaker 1: Center on social media. He's Zach W. Norris. That's z 1117 01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,760 Speaker 1: A C h W n O R R I S 1118 01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,720 Speaker 1: on Twitter and is at Zach Norris dot com. I 1119 01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,800 Speaker 1: also encourage you to read his book, We Keep Us Safe, 1120 01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,520 Speaker 1: and we even have an online bookshop where you can 1121 01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,640 Speaker 1: buy it and books by all of our guests. So again, 1122 01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,760 Speaker 1: check the show notes or our website at how to 1123 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,960 Speaker 1: Citizen dot com, where we post the episodes, we post 1124 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:19,600 Speaker 1: a transcript and all of these resources and more. If 1125 01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,280 Speaker 1: you liked what you've heard here, please share the show, 1126 01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,840 Speaker 1: leave a review, sign up for my newsletter at how 1127 01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,200 Speaker 1: to citizen dot com, where I will announce upcoming live 1128 01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:34,240 Speaker 1: tapings and more from audience members like you. How To 1129 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,880 Speaker 1: Citizen with Barrattune Day as a production of I Heart 1130 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:42,000 Speaker 1: Radio podcast executive produced by Miles Gray, Nick Stump, Elizabeth 1131 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:46,640 Speaker 1: Stewart and barrattune Day Thurston, Produced by Joel Smith, Edited 1132 01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,000 Speaker 1: by Justin Smith. Powered by you