WEBVTT - Sen. Rand Paul Talks US Debt, ICE, Future of DHS 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:07.040 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.120 Knowing that Rand Paul has been the face, at least 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:13.600 the Republican face of the war powers debate on Capitol Hill, 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.680 at least in the Upper Chamber, I started our conversation, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.439 and we have a lot to talk about. Remember, he's 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.320 the chairman of the Committee on Homeland Security, so he's 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:23.560 going to be the man who has to usher in 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.160 Mark Wayne Mullen, and I'm pretty sure these two are 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.840 not friends. We talked about the hearing that will take place, 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.520 the confirmation hearing next week, but starting with the war 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.440 in Iran. I asked the Senator if he believes this 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:37.000 is an illegal war. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.720 Listen, Well, you know the thing about the debate over awards, 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.160 one of the most important debates we have. Our founding 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:47.280 fathers had an extensive discussion over this, the Constitutional Convention, 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:48.519 the Federalist papers. 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:50.040 They all had strong feelings. 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.520 But interesting, even though there were differences between Hamilton and Jefferson, 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.000 really they all came together and said they didn't want 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.600 the president of the power to initiate or declare war. 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.440 They wanted that power to be with Congress. So this 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.400 is a very important, if not the most important congressional 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.680 debate we have over war powers and over the Constitution, 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.000 And yeah, I think the Constitution's very clear you go 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.920 to war, and war should be initiated through Congress. And 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.679 the reason our founding fathers made it so is they 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.039 didn't like war. They wanted war to be less often, 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.720 they wanted war to be a rarity, not common. 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.080 So last week, then in that failed vote, Congress voted 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.200 to abdicate its duties its powers. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:33.720 Yeah, war the War Powers Act. A lot of people 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.119 confused it. They say, always just a reporting requirement. President 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.120 has to report after sixty days. It's really much more 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:44.319 than that because it acknowledges the first part of the 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.679 War Powers Acts as you have to have either a 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.800 declaration of war or a vote to authorize for us, 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:51.360 or there has to be imminent danger. 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:53.600 That's really what our judgment should be. 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:55.880 And so many of the arguments that came from this 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:57.680 administration really. 0:01:57.440 --> 0:01:58.320 Don't hold water. 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:00.400 They said, well, they've been at war with us for 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.760 forty seven years, and I said, well, that doesn't sound 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.160 very imminent. That kind of sounds like you might have 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.880 had time to come to Congress and get a declaration 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:08.280 of war. 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.040 Absolutely, it sounds like you see this as an illegal action. 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.320 Then yeah, I don't think this is what our founding 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.520 fathers intended, is not what the Constitution intends, And so 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.679 I continue to support these war powers action to try 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.640 to limit the executive the same way I would under 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.600 and did under President Obama and President Biden as well. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.200 So will that make it difficult for you to vote 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.280 to support a supplemental budget request assuming that does arrive? 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:33.720 As we've heard, I. 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:35.520 Think the biggest threat to our country and to our 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.440 national security is our debt, and so I think adding 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:40.840 more to our debt doesn't make us safer. It actually 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.680 will make us make it more in danger to be 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.359 further in debt. So the administration has said they want 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.120 to increase the budget by fifty percent. Yes, that sounds 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.760 like a large increase, from a trillion to one point 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.679 five trillion, and then in the meantime they may ask 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.880 for another fifty billion or so, maybe one hundred. Already 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.799 talking about, well, we got to give the farmers some money. 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:03.800 You know, the tariffs aren't so good for farmers, and 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.280 instead of removing the tariffs they are hurting the farmers. 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.000 They're going to give the farmers some money. And then 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.200 they're like, well, we've had had some disasters around here, 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:16.639 so we're going to do military disasters, you know, stipend 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.079 for the farmers since the tariff arting them. It'll be 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.200 a mess, and it'll be something that anybody who's fiscally 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.240 conservative will not. So you're in no regardless of the number, 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:30.239 soundly because right now our military, we spend more on 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.280 our military than the next ten countries combined. So for 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.240 people to argue we're not spending enough, we're spending more 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:37.880 than the next ten countries combined. 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:39.520 We spend plenty on our military. 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.200 They used to be spent wisely, but they've spent an 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:43.600 extraordinary amount on two wars. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.080 We've had two wars in one month. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.640 I mean, for goodness sakes, they're talking about another war 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.040 with Cuba as we speak. 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:51.520 So yeah, they cost money. 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.160 They cost laws most importantly, but they also cost money. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.520 And I'm just not for I'm not wasn't for the 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:00.600 war in Venezuela, I'm not for the war in Iran, 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:02.640 and I'm certainly not for a war with Cuba. 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.600 You're chairman of the Committee on Homeland Security. Are you 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.040 hearing about domestic terror threats that we need to know about. 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.080 There's been a great concern about sleeper cells, about lone wolves. 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:14.920 Has that threat increased because of this? 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.960 Actually, I don't have specific knowledge that it has. We 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.560 have not had any specific briefing to say it has. 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.839 But I'm not here to argue that it isn't a 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.720 potential problem. I think anytime you're at war there is 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.200 a potential for terrorist actions. I think we already had, 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.919 you know, one shooting in Texas that people said it 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:34.560 was related to the terrorism and to the war. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.000 Yeah, some have worried that the fact that DHS, the department, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.840 not your committee, is closed right now is making us 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.159 less safe. It is the ability for DHS to combat 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.039 domestic terror threats compromised by this closure. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.480 Yeah, I don't know how much DHS actually does. I 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.640 don't know those people who believe. Of course, the FBI 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:56.919 has an important task in trying to. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:58.800 Look for people who are in the country that might 0:04:58.800 --> 0:04:59.320 harm us. 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.040 There are aspects of crossing of borders that make a difference. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.720 But you know, I'm one of those who after nine 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:09.680 to eleven thought, gosh, we're just going to create these 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.400 enormous bureaucracies that cost a lot of money, but don't 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.279 necessarily make us safer interesting, So I would rather the 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:22.360 money probably be spent specifically on detailed defenses against terrorism, 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.720 as opposed to a big, bloated bureaucracy. 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:27.239 Which is what the department from my insecurity has become. 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:29.360 Well, I know that you've got TSA workers who are 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.160 going to start missing paychecks if they aren't already. I 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.080 understand that Global Entry is being reopened, which I thought 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.840 was an interesting headline this morning, considering the strain on 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.200 the system. How long can TSA hold up without getting paid. 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.320 I've been for a reform of this. I think what 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:44.919 we should do. 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:46.760 If you work for the government and I have a 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.040 contract and I pay you eighty thousand dollars a year, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:50.680 it's a breach of contract. 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.560 We should just keep paying everybody. The appropriations could be. 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.600 For a lot of other things that are optional, but 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.680 the employment is not so optional, particularly of like air 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:00.800 trap for controllers. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:02.960 I fly all the time. Frankly, I want my air 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:03.919 traffic controller. 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.400 To be well paid, well rested, and not unhappy when 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.400 he or she comes to work. So there is a 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.200 reform that's floated around, and I've voted for it several times. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.280 And this is you know, this isn't the first time 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.920 or won't be the last time there's a debate overfunding. 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.080 The debate is actually healthy. What is unhealthy is that 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.680 not paying workers. And so I think the workers, if 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.240 they're working, ought to be paid. And so I'm for 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:33.840 a reform that anytime we have a shutdown, the contract aspect. 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:35.880 Of the workers that we pay should just go on 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:37.000 despite the impact. 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.760 Well, so what's it going to take to reopen this agency? 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.320 And would maybe a new secretary do the trick? You're 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:46.160 going to be tasked with this confirmation process? Have you 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:46.680 scheduled to. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.599 Hearing next week? Give all the PaperWorks done? 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.120 There has to be an FBI background check, and there 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:56.960 has to be some ethics documents, and the minority party 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:58.640 has to have a certain amount of days to look. 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.760 At these understood, these are things we agreed to. If 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.400 it can all be done, we're going to try to 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.600 do the hearing in the vote next week. But I 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:06.040 think that. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.679 Overall my suggestion, I'm not sure they're going to listen 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:09.920 to me. 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:11.560 My suggestion would be to. 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.720 Acknowledge that there have been failures with ICE and that 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.800 they're coming out with new policies and new regulations. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:19.720 As to how their agents behaved. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.040 When I had the agents come in recently, the head 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.320 of ICE and the head of the Border Patrol, I 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:26.800 ask them that specific question. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.920 You know, if I'm me to you and I'm the 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:31.520 ICE agent, you're yelling at me. 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:33.480 He said, okay for me to lunge at you and 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.480 spray you right in the face with pepper spray for 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.440 your words. And he said no, but that's what we 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.120 were seeing in all of those images. We saw women 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.880 thrown to the ground for yelling at officers. And nobody 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.320 likes to be yelled at, but that is part of America. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.280 People are going to yell at you, and as long 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.520 as it's words, we shouldn't be reacting in a physical way. 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.240 So I think ICE needs to announce that. 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.440 They kind of in our hearing admitted that all the 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.120 actions that we were seeing in these wasn't appropriate. 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:02.480 But there was also a. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.480 Lot of denial going on, and I'm looking to see 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.640 if it's going to be any different, and frankly, that 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:09.640 would be I recommendation announced. 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.600 And Homan kind of did some of this. They removed 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:13.960 people from the streets. 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.000 They quit doing the confrontation, and they also said that 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.920 agents that misbehaved would be punished. None of that was 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.640 happening before Tom Homan showed up and gave a little 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.520 more professionalism to the. 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:27.200 Things that were going on in Minnesota. 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.360 But you know, really, since he showed up and removed 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.640 them the streets, you haven't seen a whole lot of 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.480 right of of footage coming out of Minnesota. 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.240 Demasking has been a line for most Republicans. Is it 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:38.680 for you? 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.520 I think that there might be a time when a 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.559 mask might be appropriate if you're on the border and 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.439 you're dealing, you know, in the in the thick of 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.840 battle with cartels. Maybe if you're in an elevator, in 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:55.800 a in the in the courthouse in Chicago, I saw 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.640 one image of mask agents going in. It was three 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.599 or four moms and ten kids, and you know, basically 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.680 rounding them all up and being masked. Look, the bailiffs 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.160 aren't masked, the Chicago police aren't masked. 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.120 So I think in our cities, in. 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.200 Areas where the other police officers are masked, there's no 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.040 reason why one set of federal officials should be masked 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.520 in another set shouldn't be. So I won't say it's 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.320 an absolute that no masks, But I would say when 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.880 you're participating where other law enforcement isn't, I don't think 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:28.359 it's anonymity. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.439 I think leads to bad behavior. Interesting. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.760 What do you make of the nomination of Senator Mark 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.200 Wayne Mullen? And did the senator from Oklahoma jeopardize his 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.920 standing with you with some of the colorful language he 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.240 used to describe you last month? You'll follow the chairman 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:44.720 of Snake. 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.640 You'll find out more if you come to the nomination here. 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.360 I promise you they'll We'll be a good and fulsome hearing. 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:55.120 Okay, sounds like everyone sees him getting this job, though, 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:56.160 will he be confirmed in the. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:57.280 End, We'll see. 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.679 Okay. President Trump's on his way lucky today the affordability 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.720 tour lands in Tom Massey's districts. What are people in 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.960 Kentucky telling you about three dollars and twenty cent gas? 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:09.520 Right now? 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.120 You know, I'm a big supporter of Thomas Massey. I 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.800 have campaign with him, will continue to campaign with him. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:20.920 He released some material yesterday that was pretty extraordinary. His opponent, actually, 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.680 when Donald Trump won the nomination in twenty sixteen, left 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.520 the party in discussed so It's ironic that the president 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.400 is now supporting a guy who hated Donald Trump so 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.320 much that he left the party only came back into 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.360 the party when Joe Biden became president. So there is 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.680 a certain amount of irony there, and voters actually know 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.960 this stuff, and this. 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.400 Will be all over It is all over television. 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.120 Right now that his opponent basically left the party because 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:46.839 of Donald Trump. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.719 So can he get over that irony? I don't know. 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.120 I think a lot of people are going to say, well, 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.559 what's up with this? You know, But there's a lot 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.600 of respect for Thomas Massey. I mean, look, he took 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.840 an issue that the President had promoted, revealing the Epstein files. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:02.199 President was all for it. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.679 Thomas Massey took that issue and ran with it, and 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.760 issue the president supported until the President didn't support the 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:09.480 issue anymore. 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:10.800 Think about the. 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.480 Effectiveness of a guy who only had three Republican allies 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.719 when it started and in the end passed it unanimously 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.480 in the House, passed it unanimously in the Senate, and 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:25.200 the President signed it. That is an extraordinary feat. So 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.520 I think a lot of people see that Thomas fact. 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.080 Thomas Massey is quite effective, and I would say, he's 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.520 also the most fiscally conservative member of the House. It's 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.320 a conservative district. I think he's actually doing pretty well well. 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.400 Indeed, you have a lot in common, and to your point, 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.199 you will campaign for him for his reelection. 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:41.800 Absolutely. 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:44.000 Do you have plans to be on the stump any 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:44.440 time soon. 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:46.440 I've already done two days with him. 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.280 I have two days coming up in two weeks and 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.120 we just added another two days, So I will spend 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.720 a lot of time in the district. We're raising money 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.480 for him, and he will be outspent. They'll probably spend 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.640 twenty to thirty million trying to defeat a republic which 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.880 really is to me a waste of money to try 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:04.720 to beat a Republican. 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.800 But they're also trying to beat the most conservative member 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:13.160 of the House of Representatives, and the irony is not 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:14.240 lost on a lot of people. 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.200 And you think he keeps his job. It sounds like I. 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:17.600 Think he has a very good chance of winning. 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:19.679 It won't be easy, you know, but I think he 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:21.079 has a very good chance of still winning.