WEBVTT - How to be OK with uncertainty, with Simone Stolzoff 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:09.320 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:14.720 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.400 episode is going to be a slightly longer one part 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.520 of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.239 they take their days from great to awesome and any 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.040 advice they have for the rest of us. So today 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.120 I am delighted to welcome Simone stoles Off to Before Breakfast. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.920 Simone is the author of The Good Enough Job and 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.680 also the author of the brand new book How Not 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.320 to Know the value of uncertainty in a world that 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.760 demands answers. So Simone, welcome to the show. 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:41.320 Thank you so much for having me. 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.120 Yeah, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:43.800 about yourself. 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.519 I'm a journalist and an author. I wasn't always this 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.600 profession that I had sort of a meandering career. In college, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.520 I studied poetry and economics, and so maybe you can 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.320 already see the tension between the pursuit of art and 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.720 the pursuit of commerce. But I like to think of 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.040 my as taking big swings at big questions, and so 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:05.720 my first book, The Good Enough Job, was about how 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.280 work has come to be so central to our identities, 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.800 and in the release and afterwards, I kept hearing questions 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.640 from listeners and readers about how they should think about 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:16.840 their career and the face of about the uncertainty in 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.440 the world and their careers and their lives. And so 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.679 my second book, How To Not Know, is sort of 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:23.880 response to that. It's an attempt to help you get 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.800 better at dealing with uncertainty, and God knows we all 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:27.600 need that right now. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.400 Well, I would say, I mean, is life more uncertain 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.880 now or are we just more aware of various aspects 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:33.720 of the uncertainty. 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:35.840 It's a little bit of both. And so there's been 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.000 some really good research that has come out. There's this 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.160 project called the Economic Policy Uncertainty Index that has tracked 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:46.000 global uncertainty over time, and since the study began in 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:49.320 the eighties, the five highest measurements of uncertainty have all 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:51.720 occurred in the last five years. So you think about 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:58.000 things like the COVID pandemic, the Warren Ukraine, Iran tariff policy. 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.880 We live in an incredibly uncertain world. Now. If you were 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.919 talking to someone who lived in Floorince during the bubonic plague, 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.560 they might think, Okay, maybe it's not that uncertain But 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:09.600 I think the biggest thing that's changed recently is that 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.760 our tolerance for uncertainty has declined, and so with the 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.520 rise of the Internet and mobile phones, it's done two things. 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.240 One is, it's created the expectation that answers should be 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:23.720 readily available, and so whereas maybe five years ago I 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:25.400 might have been fine not knowing the name of a 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.720 given actor, now I feel this almost involuntary need to 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.080 reach for my phone. And the second thing that's done 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.280 is it's taken all of the world's crises, all of 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.000 the uncertainty that might exist out there, and flattened it, 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.240 and it brought it right to our doorstep. And so 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.720 the world is incredibly uncertain, our tolerance for uncertainty is 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.560 in decline, and that leaves us so much of the 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:48.600 anxiety and fear that so many people are feeling today. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.480 Yeah, that is true about you know, be out at 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.680 dinner with people and somebody asked the question, what was 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:55.520 that guy who was in this? And you know, you're 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:57.240 all pulling out your phones to check its, like, well, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:59.200 none of us actually needed to know that. We could 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.000 have continued our life and this dinner without that. But 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:06.359 you mentioned that we're less tolerant of uncertainty, then why 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.200 is it important for us to be tolerant of uncertainty? 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.840 At the most basic level, the world is uncertain, especially 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.320 when you think about anything that happens in the future, 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:21.560 and so if you are intolerant of uncertainty, individuals tend 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.480 to be less creative, for example, because when they hit 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:28.840 a moment of discomfort or ambiguity, they tend to go 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.760 for the safest option, which isn't always the optimal choice. 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.880 Communities tend to be more cohesive and collaborative in the 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.640 face of higher levels of uncertainty tolerance, because they're able 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.920 to collaborate across differences, whereas if you're intolerant of uncertainty, 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.160 you might not want to speak to your neighbor, or 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.440 speak to a stranger, or speak to someone who voted 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:55.840 for someone differently than you. And as a society at large, 0:03:56.000 --> 0:04:00.440 when we're intolerant of uncertainty, we tend to not be 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.480 very resilient or adaptive. Part of what it means to 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.600 live in the modern world is to be able to 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.880 face uncertainty and continue to make decisions, continue to persist, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.200 and if we're intolerant, then we continue to close our 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.600 minds and not open our minds to the possibilities that 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:19.359 might be sitting on the other side of what we 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:19.760 don't know. 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.800 So here's something I don't know, Simone is what the 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.240 wait times will be at Newark Airport, where I am 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.840 trying to go in the next few days. We're in 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.839 a period of time this will air later, but when 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.000 there's a lot of uncertainty about TSA staffing and things 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.640 like that. So I find myself scrolling around online a 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:45.440 lot trying to find anybody who claims to know anything 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:49.240 about the new airport wait times. Why am I doing that? 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.719 I think it's an attempt to find control in that 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.240 situation that you might not necessarily have very much control. 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.039 So in the book, I talk about three different traps 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.760 that we often fall into. The first is comfort, our 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.960 desire to stay comfortable, which keeps us from exploring things 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.960 outside of our comfort zone. The second is hubris, our 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.520 tendency to think that we know best, which keeps us 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:12.839 from admitting what we don't know. And the last trap 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.640 that I talk about is control, our desire to plan 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.440 to know exactly what the future will hold, even when 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.159 we sometimes cannot. And so I think in the situation 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.520 like this with the New York airport, certainly it's good 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.880 to do some research to figure out if there's estimated 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.920 wait times, if maybe your airline can send you an estimate. 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:32.360 But there comes a point in any sort of decision 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.880 making process where gathering more information has diminishing returns. I'm 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.000 thinking specifically about one moment in my life where I 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.520 was deciding between two job offers, and I spoke to 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.600 everyone I could about it, my uber driver, my yoga teacher. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.320 I was like insufferable as a friend and as a partner, 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.120 and I realized I was trying to control a situation 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.880 that I fundamentally could not. I wanted to know what 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.240 was the right job for me in the same way 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.280 that you might want to know exactly what time you 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.880 should arrive at work. And so I think for someone 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.000 in your situation, the most important thing is to separate 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.120 what you can and you can't control. You can control 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:09.760 for things like your method of getting to the airport, 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.200 trying to arrive with as much time as possible, but 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.600 there is a level of uncertainty that is inherent in 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.800 flying or making any sort of decision like that, And 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.000 I would say, to not opt on the full end 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.640 of the conservative spectrum and arrive six hours for your flight, 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:30.200 and then not opt for the sort of wishful thinking 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:32.919 line of the spectrum where you arrive forty five minutes 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.360 before your flight and think everything is going to be fine. 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.400 So gather information that you can plan, fritage different contingencies, 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:41.919 and then ultimately you have to be comfortable with not knowing. 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.839 So I think that thing about trying to exert control 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.280 over things that also plays out in people maybe sometimes 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.600 sense that they are doing something by doing all this 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.640 additional research or reading, as it might be, clickbaity articles 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:01.040 on anything that is increasing their anxiety level. Does that 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.280 sort of keep us from maybe focusing on the things 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.160 that we can control. I mean, I think of all 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.480 the people who are reading some ragey article online and 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.960 thinking that that is activism as opposed to actually doing 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.200 something that has any effect on the topic that they 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:17.560 are reading about. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:19.400 Yeah, A line that I like to think about a 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:24.000 lot is that action absorbs anxiety. And often when we're 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.400 gathering more information, it can be useful to a point, 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.480 but beyond that point, it often just fuels our anxiety. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.680 That's why we live in this information age, and yet 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.440 access to more information has not necessarily made us any 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.920 wiser or less anxious. You can pour gasoline on the 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.360 fire of your anxiety by continuing to research, by continuing 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:45.920 to click through articles. I'm a new parent and I 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:47.960 think about this all the time. In relation to parenting. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.239 You can read endless things about anything on the internet 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.360 about what might be happening with your kid. But at 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.160 a certain point that is getting in the way of 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.720 you actually being present with your kid and being able 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.600 to be responsive in the moment. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.360 Absolutely, Well, We're going to take a quick ad break 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:12.000 and then I'll be back with more from Simoni Stolelof. Well, 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.640 I am back talking with Simonie Stolesov, who is the 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:16.960 author of the brand new book How Not to Know 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.160 the Value of Uncertainty in a world that demands answers. 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.960 So you say that we should you increase our tolerance 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.400 for uncertainty. And if somebody's listening to this, it's like, Okay, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.640 I want the equivalent of exercises I can do, like 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.680 at the gym, to make myself more tolerant of uncertainty. 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:37.280 What would you suggest that they do? 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.560 The first thing I always say is to find your anchors, 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.840 so research shows, and when we are certain about some 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.800 aspects of our life, it makes it easier to hold 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.960 uncertainty in others. I think about this in relation to 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.920 time management all the time. If you know, for example, 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.439 that you're going to exercise at a certain moment in 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:57.720 the day, or if you have a bed time at 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.400 a certain time, it'll make it easier to hold some 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.360 of the more amorphous and certainty throughout your day. So 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.480 for you, your anchors might be something like your values, 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.520 or where you know you want to live, or who 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.440 you know you want to be with, or where you 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.400 want to spend your time. Those anchors can be the 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.000 boulders amidst all the changing winds around you. The second 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:24.160 thing I'd say is to try to separate what you 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.080 can and can't control. That's what we were talking about earlier. 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.760 There is this great prayer that you may have heard 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.960 of before, called the serenity prayer, and it's very popular 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.600 in recovery communities. But it basically says, God, grant me 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:41.240 the serenity to separate what I can and I can't control, 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.440 and to know the difference. So often when we're dealing 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.160 with uncertainty, we spend lots of energy and effort on 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.760 things that we fundamentally can't control, So how can you 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.440 divert that energy towards things that you can? And the 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:58.280 third is I'd say choose curiosity over fear. I think 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.240 part of the problem uncertainty is so uncomfortable for us 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.680 is that we have a natural tendency to catastrophize, to 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.000 think about all the things that could go wrong, to 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.520 worry about arriving to the airport and there being a 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.440 five hour TSA line and you missing your flight. But 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.240 I think it's also important to think about what might 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:22.680 go right, so to frame the possibility as opposed to 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:27.679 just the threat of uncertainty. Certainly, every scientific breakthrough or 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.840 revolutionary company, or genre busting piece of art has come 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.640 from someone's willingness to get to a point where they 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:40.160 were uncertain and persist nonetheless. And so thinking about those 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:42.840 small steps that you can take to what I say, 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.319 row through the fog, to keep moving through the uncertainty 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.520 that you feel, that is both where clarity and growth 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:50.319 will emerge. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.520 All right, So we're gonna we're going to try and 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.080 proach these things that might produce anxiety with a little 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.079 bit more of a spirit of curiosity exactly than fear. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.920 I love that. So you also have a phrase that 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.160 you say you want to trust in your future self 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:07.520 to solve your future problems. One of the things we'd 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.640 sometimes talk about on this show is people go over 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.600 the top of like preparing meals for the entire week, 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:18.400 or you know, packing everything for every day of the week, 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.160 you know, in their bag the night before or something 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.160 like that. And sometimes there's a reason to do that, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.760 but it's also like, well, could Thursday me come up 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.760 with dinner? I bet Thursday me could figure out dinner Sunday. 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.680 Meat doesn't necessarily have to figure out dinner for Thursday. 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:38.679 I'm curious. What are some other ways where we should 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.760 trust in our future self to solve our future problems. 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.960 Yeah, so the phrase comes from a friend of mine 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.360 named Emily, and she is a therapist. But before she 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.280 became this mental health professional, her mom was given a 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.439 terminal cancer diagnosis when she was in her early twenties 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.880 and she would spend days after days her side at 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.400 the hospital and one day a family friend of theirs 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.560 named Bill came by to see how Emily was doing, 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.880 and so he asked, you Emily, how are you holding up? 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.120 And she said, honestly, I am not doing very well. 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:17.080 I'm riding this roller coaster of anxiety and anticipatory grief, 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.720 and I'm not sure what I'll do if my mom 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.360 passes away. And Bill says, you know, Bill is an 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.880 oncology doctor, so he has a lot of experience dealing 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.120 with people at the end of their lives. And he said, 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.439 you know, Emily, the version of yourself that will deal 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.840 with that tragic event, if or when it happens, will 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.360 be born into existence in that moment, and that version 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.079 of you will have more context, more information, and will 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:46.160 be better equipped to deal than you are today. You 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.000 have to trust in your future self to solve your 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:53.360 future problems. Now. Obviously, in a case of Emily's life, 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.679 the stakes are incredibly high. You know, she's dealing with 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:56.040 her mom. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.040 Yeah, that's a little bit worse than the dinner on Thursdays. 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.240 A little bit worse than the dinner on Thursday. But 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.960 I think the wisdom still applies. And so often, when 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.640 faced with uncertainty, we have this natural tendency to rush 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.599 out and meet our suffering and say, oh, if you 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:12.080 know my mom dies, I'm not sure what I'm going 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.560 to do. I'm so worried and to really rush out 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.959 to meet that moment. And in Emily's case, her mom 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.840 ended up recovering and she's so grateful that she didn't 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.920 spend too much time in that dark place worrying about 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.720 something that hasn't yet come to be. I think, in 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.360 a more mundane practical sense, when we're too rigid to 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.560 our plans, it makes us less flexible and less adaptable. 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.840 And especially in a world that is rapidly changing, or 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.120 in a life that is incredibly busy that has lots 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.320 of variables in the air, if you're too fixed to 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.560 your one specific way of doing things, it makes it 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.800 very easy to really get thrown off kilter if something 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.760 were to change. And so I like the idea of 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.240 having intentions. As you like to say, doing something three 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.160 times a week makes it a habit, having a way 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:04.440 of knowing what's important to you, but being flexible enough 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:09.160 to change the scope or schedule if the week dictates you. 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.040 Adapt yep, because Thursday we might have a really fun 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.520 dinner outside if the weather is good or something like that. Somebody, 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:19.280 I actually want to ask you a little bit about 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.880 what is a good enough job. So your previous book, 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:24.440 a lot of people are hearing that are like, hmm, 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.320 what is a good enough job? 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.280 Yeah, So the title the good enough job is an 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.120 allusion to this theory that was devised by this British 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.760 pediatrician named Donald Wynicott, and you might have heard of 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:38.600 it. It was called the good enough mother or the good 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:43.520 enough parent. And Wenicott was observing how who's a doctor 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.480 in England in the mid twentieth century, how these parents 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:48.560 were trying to be the perfect parent. They were trying 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.560 to shield their kid from experiencing any sort of negative 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.320 emotion or harm. And then when the kid never really 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.600 felt frustrated or sad or angry, the parent would take 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.840 it extremely personally and so proposal alternative. He called it 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.560 the good enough parent, and he said, rather than striving 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:09.320 for perfection, if you strive for sufficiency. It benefits both 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.400 the child and the parent. The kid can learn how 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.240 to self soothe and take care of some of their 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.520 own issues, and the parent won't lose themselves in their 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.200 children's emotions. So in the book, I make the direct 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.120 allusion to the working world, where so often we talk 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.640 about the dream job and perfection and creates so much 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.840 room for disappointmentment underneath that sky high ideal. So I 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.480 define a good enough job as a job that allows 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.440 you to be the type of person that you want 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.080 to be. It's sufficiently vague, but I like that everyone 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.680 can define what a good enough job means for themselves. 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.160 Maybe for one person it's a job that allows them 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.520 to pick up their kid from elementary school, or another 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:49.680 person that's a job that allows them to go on 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.800 that afternoon bike ride that really makes their life meaningful. 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:54.560 And maybe for someone else it's a job that pays 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.600 a certain amount of money, or a job that has 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.280 a certain job title. But the truth is, we get 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.160 to define what good enough means to us. And once 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.000 you have your own definition of good enough, you can 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.720 divert some of that attention and energy that you might 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.000 be giving to questioning whether you found your perfect calling 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.560 towards other aspects of your life that might make your 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:14.240 life meaningful. 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.880 Yeah, because it turns out there is no perfect job, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.440 just as probably there's no perfect person. There's no perfect future. 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:22.840 There's always some uncertainty involved in all of it. 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.560 Great I can't say better myself, and I think that's 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.160 sort of like the intersection of the two books, where 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.120 if we take table stakes the idea that there is 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.480 no perfect job out there, we must be willing to 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:41.000 trust our futureselves and understand. Okay, maybe AIS undermining my industry. 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.000 Maybe I don't know exactly what my ten yere plan 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.120 is going to be, but I have built my uncertainty 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.840 tolerance and I'm able to be resilient in the face 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:49.800 of all this change. 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.160 Absolutely. Well, We're going to take one more quick ad 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.000 break and then I'll be back with more from Simono 0:16:54.080 --> 0:17:03.880 stalls Off. Well, I am back talking with Simona Stolzov, 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:05.920 who is the author of the brand new book How 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.240 Not To Know. We've also been talking about the Good 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.280 Enough Job, So I want to pivot to talk a 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.160 little bit about your schedule. Now, what does your schedule 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:14.040 look like these days? 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.680 Well, as I mentioned earlier, I'm a new parent, so 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.000 my schedule is a little bit more in flux than 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.760 it used to be. And I'm grateful to say that 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.200 I work for myself. So for the last five years 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.240 or so, I've been independent author, trying to make it 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.639 as a full time author, living in San Francisco, one 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.159 of the most expensive cities in the world. But there 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.640 are some choices that we've made structurally to make that 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:39.800 more possible. One is, I live with my wife, my son, 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.639 my mom, and my stepdad, so we have this intergenerational home, 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:45.879 and I live my childhood home, the same house that 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.840 I grew up in, and having that level of support 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.560 provides some buffer both from a childcare perspective and from 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.480 a work perspective. And so there's this distinction that I 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.480 make in my first book between what are called integrators 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:03.120 and segmentors. Graters are people whose jobs integrate throughout their day. 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:04.800 They might do a little work in the morning, go 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:06.640 on a run, go to the grocery store, come back, 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.159 do a little work, hang out with their kids, have 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.399 some dinner, and do work after dinner, where as segment 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.400 arms are the people that want to log on at 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.040 nine am, log off at five, and then not open 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.280 the laptop. Ever. Again, I'm very much an integrator, so 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.000 I work in small pockets. I try to keep my 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.080 mornings reserved for creative work, so output like writing that 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.080 requires a little bit more of that deep work, and 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.240 do more of my administrative tasks in the afternoon. But 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:33.520 every day looks a little bit different for me. I 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:37.359 have some anchors. I always try to be home for dinner. 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.280 I always try and have breakfast with my wife and 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.760 my son. But the nice thing about being a solopreneur 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:45.680 is that no two days are exactly the same. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.719 Well, let's talk a little bit about that morning. So 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.439 there's a family breakfast in the morning. Do you have 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.280 anything else that you do as a regular part of 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.720 your morning routine. 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.080 Yeah. So one thing that actually has been a change 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.080 relatively recently is we've started listening to the radio and 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.119 good morning. This might not seem revolutionary, but in a 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:08.960 world of Spotify recommended songs and Apple Music AI generated playlists, 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.879 listening to the radio has been such a source of delight. 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.520 There's this radio station called k EXP that's based in 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.280 Seattle that recently started streaming in the Bay Area, and 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.000 it's just this little moment of serendipity each day. It's 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.879 sort of I think about it as like a college 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.520 radio station for adults, and so it's super eclectic, and 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:27.640 I'll play classical music and then hip hop and then 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:31.240 indie and then folk and having that little bit of 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.960 time between say seven forty five and eight thirty where 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.800 we're having breakfast together, we're listening to the radio has 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.480 been one of those anchors if nothing else in my 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:42.760 day is predictable. I know that I'll have k exp 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:43.359 in the morning. 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.520 Well that's predictable, but what they're playing is unpredictable, uncertainty, 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.920 whatever the DJs want to play. I love that idea. 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.000 And do you have any other strategies that like make 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:54.880 you more productive in your life? 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.720 Yeah. I try to do a little bit of exercise 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.679 every morning, and it's as small as I possibly can 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.280 make it, so I do thirty push ups, I do 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:07.600 a few minutes of like plank and stretching, and then 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.560 a few sort of weights to lift. And what I 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.640 found is that having that small workout routine it takes 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.960 me about five minutes, makes it much easier for me 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.280 to be consistent. And consistency has always been the name 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.040 of the game for me with any sort of movement 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:25.239 or exercise. And now that I have a little bit 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.000 less free time with a crying one year old at home, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.080