1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Mark Woods Show 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio. I got a listener email. I love listener 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: emails about a segment I did on a recent episode 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: of the show. It was from my interview with Liz 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: Wolf last week. Liz and I were talking about the 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: idea that life ends after you have kids. I'll play 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: a short clip from it. 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: I think the thing that's really frustrating to me is 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: like it feels like people live in this world of buyingary, 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 2: like very false choices and binaries, where it's like either 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: you have to be full on feminist girl bossing it 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: up and wait until you're forty five to have kids 13 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: and make sure you freeze your eggs, or you have 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: to be like barefoot and pregnant eternally. 15 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 3: In the kitchen. 16 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 2: And to me, this is just like it's such a 17 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: pointless conversation that people have surrounding troud wiferyy and motherhood, 18 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: because like, this isn't actually how people operate in the wild. 19 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 3: I have a job, I also have a child who. 20 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: I spend a lot of time with. There are lots 21 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: of people who have these sort of hybrid arrangements, and 22 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: there are also lots of people who maybe they have 23 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 2: one vision for the timeline that these things will happen at. 24 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: But then, I mean, your story is I think definitely 25 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: a point like a story in this favor where it's like, 26 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: you don't know on what, sir now timeline things are 27 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: going to pan out for you. And how frustrating and 28 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: frankly disrespectful for people to be told that, like, oh, well, 29 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: you're doing it wrong if in fact there's a bunch 30 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 2: of circumstances where like it's actually quite prudent to wait 31 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 2: until you're in a good partnership, ideally a good you know, 32 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: covenantal marriage before you begin to bring a bunch of 33 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: children into the mix. And like, for lots of people, 34 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: it seems like the coupling upside of things is happening 35 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: later and later, and they're not feeling stable and secure 36 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 2: in that. I'm a little bit less sympathetic to the oh, 37 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: the finances aren't in order type of argument, because I 38 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: think people kind of don't realize how inexpensive having a 39 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: child can be and how you don't necessarily have to 40 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: have you know, every child in their own room or 41 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: every child going to for your ivy league and institution, 42 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: like you have a lot of options beyond that, and 43 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: people are unimaginative with their sense of what having a 44 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: child actually entails. And I think that our parenting culture 45 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 2: suffers because of that, because we believe that it has 46 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: to be so much more complex with you know, five 47 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: summer camps that all costs you know whatever, three thousand 48 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: and four thousand dollars apiece for every kid, and it's like, well, no, wonder, 49 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: it seems unfathomably expensive, But that's right negotiable. That's something 50 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: that's optional. And I wish more young women didn't feel 51 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: shame about the timeline or trajectory that they're on, but 52 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: did do a little bit more rethinking, Like it's not 53 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: necessarily as binary as work or quit. It's not necessarily 54 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 2: as binary as have your finances perfectly an order or 55 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: be destitute. There's a lot of range that a lot 56 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: of people are working. 57 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: With, absolutely, and your whole economy is of scale thing too. 58 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: A lot of the things that people think is going 59 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: to cost you know, again, you don't buy five cribs. 60 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: You buy the one crib and you pass it down 61 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: and you I heard one time somebody says something like, 62 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: oh you know, I grew up poor, We grew up 63 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: with hand me downs, and I was like, I don't 64 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: know how rich I need to be that my kids 65 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: are not gonna be wearing each other's hand me down. 66 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: It's like you are. 67 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: They're all wearing each other's hand me downs forever. Like 68 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: it's definitely like, oh, you need a new pair of cleats, 69 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: Let's go see if your brother has an old pair. 70 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: And that's how I think it's supposed to go. You're 71 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: so right, though, And I think about this a lot. 72 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: Where people are just maybe it's because of the online 73 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: culture and they think that you could put everything neatly 74 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: into a box of you know, girl boss or trad wife, 75 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: but most people are a some combination. And just because 76 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: you think your life is going to go a certain 77 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: way doesn't mean it will. I when I got married, 78 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: our plan was I was going to be a stay 79 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: at home mom, and then I opened an unrelated business, 80 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: and then I got into journalism, and you know, you 81 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: just don't know where life is going to take you, 82 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: so you can't have what you're doing in this moment 83 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: be your identity. And I think that's the thing that 84 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: people don't understand. They're scrambling around for like what am 85 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: I going to be? Well, maybe just don't think of 86 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: it like that, Maybe think about what you're going to 87 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: going to do instead, And it's it's a tougher ask 88 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: because what am I going to be? Sort of gives 89 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: you the roadmap, but nobody is just that one thing. 90 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 4: You know. 91 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: The Drake album More Life m this is I feel 92 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: like my mantra and probably yours too, Like both of 93 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: us have a little bit of this, like this antsiness, 94 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 2: this eagerness to like stick our hands in a million 95 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: different charts, even if we're overextended, like I've always had this. Yeah, 96 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: like Iggy Pop puts it as like lust for life. 97 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: Right in Drake World, it's more Life, but there's a 98 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: little bit in the sense. 99 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 3: Of just like you know, it's it. 100 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: I think there's this narrative out there that's like, once 101 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: you have a child, your life is over. 102 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 3: Your life must be and say. 103 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: Goodbye to going out and to the fancy restaurants and 104 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: to parties with your friends, and you know, forget about 105 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: throwing a house party ever again. You really have to 106 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: step into this, you know, different state of being. And 107 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: in some ways it's true, right because you can't do 108 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: cocaine and stay out till I say, am if you 109 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: have a newborn that you need to nurse right. 110 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: The listener writes in I loved your conversation with Liz Wolf. 111 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: You said that women shouldn't solidify into an identity like 112 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: girl boss or trad wife. But I find that very difficult. 113 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: I'm twenty eight years old and getting married next year. 114 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: My entire life, I have heard that I have to 115 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: have something of a brand. The idea is pushed in 116 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: college all the time. You have to have a path 117 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: to what you are in everything you do. I would 118 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: find it very difficult to switch between my current career 119 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: path and being a trad wife, for example. I don't 120 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: judge them, it's just impossible for me to consider changing gears. 121 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: I love this email because my first instinct was to say, Wow, 122 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: I'm so old, this is so crazy. This whole idea 123 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: about having a brand is all so new. But then 124 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: I remembered a conversation I had in my early twenties 125 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: where I felt completely pigeonholed in my very specific career path. 126 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: Right out of college, I became a pharmaceutical paralegal working 127 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: in a legal department, of a farmer company. It was accidental, 128 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: but because that happened to be the first job I 129 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: was offered out of college, I kept being offered only 130 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: roles in that field. I had no idea about anything. 131 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about the field at all, and 132 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: the skills I was using in that job could have 133 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: been easily applicable to literally any role in the legal field, really, 134 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: any role in any field. I was doing what I 135 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: later would refer to as like monkey work, checking that 136 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: papers were numbered correctly, making sure boxes went out on 137 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: time and were perfect. People have been doing this whole 138 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: You chose this at twenty two. Now you'll be this 139 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: forever thing for a long time. But what I want 140 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: people to know is that it's a lie. And not 141 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: only is it a lie, but you can switch and 142 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: then switch again. I've worked full time, part time contract 143 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: work for myself four other people, owned my own business, 144 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: and was a stay at home mom. It's all very possible. 145 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: And I should note that a lot of that I 146 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: did after I was married, because yes, having the stability 147 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: of a spouse less you take more chances. But some 148 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: of that I did when I wasn't married too. I 149 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: went to graduate school I switched fields all before I 150 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: ever even dated my husband. So don't listen to the 151 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: voices saying your life must go this one way that 152 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: you picked when you were twenty. You're going to find, 153 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: especially after you have kids, that it may take a 154 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: turn and then turn again. It's okay to lean into changes, 155 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: and no one should pigeonhole you into just one thing. 156 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: You may be a girl boss and a treadwife at 157 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: different points of your life, and those are also very 158 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: reductionist labels all around. Probably will be somewhere between those 159 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: two all along. Your life is not an Instagram account. 160 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: You can do various things with it and not care 161 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: what the quote unquote audience wants to see. Thanks for listening. 162 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: Coming up my interview with Alison Schrager, But first I'd 163 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: like to change gears for a minute and talk about Israel. 164 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: It's now the month of May, and eighty years ago 165 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: this very month, the horror of the Holocaust, the final 166 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: solution came to an end. But do you know that 167 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: half of all Holocaust survivors live in Israel. 168 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: The pain of the past now. 169 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: Intensified today by October seventh, and the rise of anti 170 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: Semitism everywhere and along with other elderly Jews, thousands in 171 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: Israel live below the poverty line. There's no safety net. 172 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: That's why I support the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. 173 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: The Fellowship provides a lifeline to these precious ones in 174 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: the form of hot meals and boxes full of healthy food. 175 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: And for only twenty five dollars, you can help provide 176 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: a food box. Better yet, three hundred and thirty five 177 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: dollars provides hot meals for an entire year. To give generously, 178 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: call eight eight eight for eight eight IFCJ eight eight 179 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: eight four eight eight four three two five, or go 180 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: online to give at IFCJ dot org. That's IFCJ dot org. 181 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: And Welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 182 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: My guest today is Alison Schrager. Allison is an economist, 183 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, contributing editor at City Journal, 184 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: a columnist at Bloomberg Opinion, and the author of a 185 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: book I really loved called An Economist Walks into a 186 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: brothel and other unexpected places to understand risk. Hi, Allison's 187 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: so nice to have you on. 188 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 3: It's great to see you. 189 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: You know, I was a big fan of your book 190 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: when it came out, and it really helped me during 191 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: COVID because I thought that one of them main problems 192 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: during those years was that people hadn't read your book 193 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: and they didn't understand risk. Did you feel like it 194 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: was maybe ahead of its time? 195 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I actually started to work on a 196 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 4: second book that's still with a publisher, but really thinking, yeah, 197 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 4: people really have a poor understanding. 198 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: Oh yes, particularly the part where. 199 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 4: You know people tend to get fixated on one risk 200 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 4: and not see others and just assume that, you know, 201 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 4: risk reduction at all costs is valuable. I thought about 202 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 4: it a lot, and maybe it also explains a lot 203 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 4: of my own COVID behavior that was probably at a 204 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 4: step with most people's because I felt quite confident in 205 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 4: my ability, not that I'm a scientist. 206 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: Or a doctorship ability to do we were right, Yeah. 207 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 4: I'm mostly things like wearing masks outside. Never did that, 208 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 4: you'd get screamed out on the shoots in New York. 209 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 4: Oh yeah. I even wanted to set to a friend 210 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 4: of mine, you know, she's like, what's important that we 211 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 4: wear masks outside? And I'm like, well, you know this 212 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 4: doesn't have any medical value. She's like, that's not what 213 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 4: it's about. It's like showing that we all care. 214 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: I hate that. 215 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 4: I know. It's like, listen, I ran like sheild our 216 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 4: faces out of social subtildarity. 217 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,239 Speaker 3: It's like, I am all. 218 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 4: Down for doing anything that will make you know, society 219 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 4: healthier than as negative externacs and externalities. But I'm not 220 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 4: doing something incredibly like sort of disruptive and uncomfortable just 221 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 4: for the sake of it. 222 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's very brave that you didn't mask outside. 223 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: I did, even though I knew from the beginning that 224 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: it was stupid and it had absolutely no benefit, because 225 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 1: I didn't want to get yelled at, and I'm more 226 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: than anything else didn't want to get yelled at with my. 227 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: Kids in tow. 228 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: But I wish I had kind of took that stand 229 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: in a more aggressive fashion because, of course, when Anthony 230 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: Fauci delivered the line, as we've been saying all along, 231 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: masking outside is like not necessary, and I knew he 232 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: had not been saying that all along, but that that 233 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: made me feel like, wow, I should have really, I 234 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: should have stood stronger and not done it, because I 235 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: knew that the risk was minuscule. 236 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean with your kids, it's harder because you 237 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 4: don't want to expose them because people would get quite nasty. 238 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 4: I know. 239 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: The general strategy was to wear headphones all the time 240 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: and I don't hear you. 241 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 4: Was waving. 242 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so how did you get to a brothel? Where 243 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: did this come from? 244 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 4: So? I had this idea that I wanted to do 245 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 4: a book that made financial economics, which is it's the 246 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 4: study of risk and markets, more accessible in the way 247 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 4: Freakonomics did. But I didn't have a research portfolio like 248 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 4: Steve Lovett did because I hadn't been done much research 249 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 4: out of grad school. 250 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,119 Speaker 3: So I wanted to tell stories. 251 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 4: And you know, I'd worked as a journalist too, so 252 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 4: I kind of felt like I could report. But then 253 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 4: I realized I don't know how to do reporting on 254 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 4: stories like I write about economics. So I was having 255 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 4: a drink with a cousin who kind of has some 256 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 4: nefarious hobbies and. 257 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: I loves like that. 258 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, the most religious of all my cousins. Too interesting, 259 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 3: and he I was like, he's. 260 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 4: A lawyer, So I was like, do you know, just 261 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 4: committed a cry and like that could be a good story. 262 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 3: And maybe that's a place to start. 263 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 4: And he said, well, actually, my girlfriend runs a sort 264 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 4: of sex business online where she matches submissives who want 265 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 4: to have sex with their clients and she makes sure 266 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 4: it's a safe transaction. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. 267 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 4: So I think that could be a good story. So 268 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 4: I interviewed her and it was interesting becau I'm writing 269 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 4: about risk and the whole ideas we pay for safety. 270 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 3: I think there's always trade offs of how much risk 271 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 3: you want to take on. 272 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 4: Like the women who worked for her paid her thirty 273 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 4: percent of their earnings, so to make sure that there's 274 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 4: a very risky transaction. You can meet some random on 275 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 4: the internet and he's going to tell you up and 276 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 4: then you have sex with them. You want to make 277 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 4: sure he doesn't kill you because the probability of that 278 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 4: isn't trivial. So she would get thirty percent to make 279 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 4: sure that didn't have happened. And I'm like, oh, it's 280 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 4: a risk premium. So I wrote this column, I think 281 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 4: for courts at the time, and it did really well, 282 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 4: as you would expect. Yeah, And so the Bunny Ranch 283 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 4: PR guy, who is quite aggressive and good at. 284 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 3: His job, reached out to me, and it's funny. 285 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 4: He's like, I guess there's a hierarchy and prestige with brothels, 286 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 4: which I didn't know. 287 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: And the Bunny ranch is like right at the top right. 288 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 4: He was like, I don't know why you're writing about 289 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 4: this no name person in the war, and like here 290 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 4: we were at brothels. Who's worrying about the best brothel 291 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 4: and that's ours. So I was like, I don't write 292 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 4: about brothels. I'm a retirement economist, but you know i'll 293 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 4: take this call. 294 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 3: Why not, right of course? And yeah, who wouldn't take 295 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: that call? 296 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 4: So we started talking and he's describing how there's no 297 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 4: set prices, that every transactions individually negotiated. And I was like, oh, 298 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 4: so you have like women who are like eighteen negotiating 299 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 4: with men in their sixties were super rich for money, 300 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 4: Like that's interesting. He's like yes, and you know they 301 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: tend to not know their value when they come. So 302 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 4: we have a negotiation training program and I had this 303 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 4: wonderful editor at the time, a wonderful Lauren Brown, who said, 304 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 4: you've got to go with a videographer. 305 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 3: So I said to. 306 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 4: Jeremy Leemer, who was their PR guy like, I want 307 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 4: to come and film this, and he they they need 308 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 4: pr because they can't advertise. So yeah, he's got an 309 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 4: invite from Dennis Hoff and off we went. And in 310 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 4: the process of learning how they negotiate, I learned how 311 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 4: prices were set and saw a risk story there, and 312 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 4: then I went back a couple more times to do 313 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 4: more research. So I guess that's that's how it was 314 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 4: a very felt unlikely to me I ended up there, 315 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 4: but that's how it happened. 316 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Dennis Hoff is Actually he somehow kind of 317 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: crossed into the mainstream right. He used to be on 318 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: Howard Stern. I came across an article about him not 319 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: that long ago where Tucker Carlson sent him some I 320 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: want to I don't know. I don't I don't want 321 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: to mess up the details, but it sounds like a 322 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: penis made out of elephant husks, something along those lines, 323 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: and somehow, you know, Tucker Carlson sent that to him. 324 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: It's just it doesn't seem like the kind of thing 325 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: where he is a weird kind of side guy. He's 326 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: he's kind of become a mainstream figure. 327 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 4: Well, he unfortunately died a couple of years ago. Yeah, 328 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 4: I believe. 329 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 3: Acy died or actually died. 330 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 4: Like they think he did, and he I liked him 331 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 4: a lot, and I think a lot of people, mainstream 332 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 4: people like Tucker, who granted is in a different place now, 333 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 4: did go to his funeral because. 334 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 3: First of all, he's very charming. 335 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 4: But second of all, you know, when you really people 336 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 4: have very strong feelings about sex work, and I understand why, 337 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 4: but they it's really often not what they think. And 338 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 4: I had I liked about Dennis Is. I had very 339 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,359 Speaker 4: complicated feelings about him, and I like people I've complicated 340 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 4: feelings about, because no one's all good or bad, and. 341 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 3: There was a lot of really good things. 342 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 4: About him and that, you know. So he gave all 343 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 4: the women financial literacy training. It's the best financial literacy 344 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 4: program I've ever seen, and I study this like it 345 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 4: was very effective. These women who grew up in very 346 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 4: financially insecure houses, a lot of them were really like 347 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 4: talking about the index funds. 348 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 3: Therefore, when K's were in yeah, and being very financially. 349 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 4: Savvy, he made them all do vision boards because he 350 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 4: says to me, it's like, most of these women are 351 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 4: never going to make this kind of money again, so 352 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 4: I want them to like learn the skills and set 353 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 4: life goals beyond here. 354 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: But then you'd say, also, they'll work harder and like 355 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 3: have more sex with people. 356 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 4: So it's like, on the one hand, he's really I 357 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: go to staff meetings and he was like this motivational 358 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 4: speaker telling these women, a lot of whom had really 359 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 4: never had anyone in their lives encourage them, encourage them 360 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 4: and tell them anything they set their minds too, they 361 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 4: could do. And you're like, yes, But then he also 362 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 4: is taking fifty percent of their money when they have 363 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 4: sex strangers, so you know, and. 364 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: They have sex with him. That was also fut of 365 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: the Yeah, they encourage each other to have sex with 366 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: him because if he likes you, then you get a 367 00:17:58,840 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: better situation. 368 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,239 Speaker 4: They want his approval, they want his attention. If you're 369 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 4: having sex with him, you're more likely to do that. 370 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 4: There was a lot of weirdicky things. But also you know, 371 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 4: who else is you know, advocating for them in this way. 372 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 3: Who else is giving them this training in different forms. 373 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 4: Of human capital? So I said, I kind of he's 374 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 4: very charming. He was very very charming too. I mean, 375 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 4: I said, I like people have complicated feelings about I 376 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 4: had very very complicated feelings about him. There's a lot 377 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 4: of things about sex work that I think, you know, 378 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 4: you you do feel very conflicted about. Like I was 379 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 4: talking to someone recently said that she's against all sex. 380 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: Work and no forgot things that goes on, even she 381 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 3: doesn't feel. 382 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 4: That way because it's always these young women who are 383 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 4: being exploited and trafficked, And I'm like, that really isn't 384 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 4: most sex transactions, Like a lot of sex transactions are 385 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 4: mentally handicapped, people who still have physical needs. There's also 386 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 4: it's common veterans maimed in battle, people with severe physical ailments. 387 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 3: That's a big part of the industry. 388 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 4: And you know, a lot of people have needs for 389 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 4: intimacy that we don't like to talk about, and it 390 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 4: does serve a purpose, And who's being exploited isn't always 391 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 4: so clear, So. 392 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 3: Not something you do learn there. 393 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 4: It's not what you think, and there's a lot of 394 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 4: It's definitely not something I felt comfortable with. 395 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: I'd say every minute in the brothel, I felt incredibly uncomfortable. 396 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 4: But it's hard to really have a strong judgment either. 397 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, what don't people misunderstand about risk. 398 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 3: Two things. One is, you know that there's upside to risk. 399 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: I think people forget that. The second is, and this 400 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 3: astounds me because. 401 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 4: People seem to think they can get nothing something for nothing, 402 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 4: Like if you're gonna get that possibility upside, you do 403 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 4: have to face downside risk too, So it's like two 404 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 4: sides of the same coin. And I think it's amazing 405 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 4: to me that people work in finance are supposed to 406 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 4: be risk experts, often forget that. They're always like, aha, 407 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 4: I found this asset that will beat the market, but 408 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 4: it faces no downside risk, and that's their sales pitch 409 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 4: right they buy into it. It's like mortgage backed securities 410 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 4: or burning battle, or even like our society at large 411 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 4: is that people think they can reduce risk and they're 412 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 4: not going to be any loss, or they can get 413 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 4: upside and not face downside risk. And it's like, you know, 414 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 4: the sort of underlying theory of all of finance is 415 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 4: like there's no arbitrage, like there's no beating the market. 416 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: Without taking on risk. 417 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 4: Yet like for some reason, people, even experts, even people 418 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 4: with PhDs and finance seem to forget this all the time. 419 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: How did you get into this risk, yeah, or just 420 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: being an economist? What was your path here? 421 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 4: I took my first economics class when I was in 422 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 4: high school, and something about it like really connected with me. 423 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 4: I think because I grew up in a very small 424 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 4: town that the industrial and ess now it's everyone's talking 425 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 4: about it de industrialized quite early in southern New England 426 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 4: and the economic scars of that never really recovered. 427 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 3: I think that I was a multi generation as fourth 428 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 3: generation and grew up there. I think that bothered. 429 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 4: Me a lot, really, the persistence of the poverty and 430 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 4: how a community that. 431 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: Sorry, but I thought you meant that it was that 432 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: it bothered you that you were the fourth generation to grow. 433 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 3: Up there too, not to have that continue. 434 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 4: But especially I think the being multigeneration made me feel 435 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 4: more connected to the community. 436 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 3: It was a very academic community too. 437 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 4: I think other people who had professional parents and feel 438 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 4: as connected as I did. So I had a lot 439 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 4: of questions growing up, like the community was also very 440 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 4: averse to development and growth. I couldn't figure that out. 441 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 4: So when I started taking economics, it started giving me 442 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 4: answers and I felt like I just wanted to know 443 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 4: more and that never stopped. I'm still there where I 444 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 4: want to understand the economy better. Really, since I was sixteen, 445 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 4: I haven't really studied anything else. 446 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: Right, Wow, So I was gonna say, was there ever 447 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: a plan B? Like if you didn't become an economist, 448 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: what would you have done? 449 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 4: You know? I was very like adamant that I was 450 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 4: going to be an economist. 451 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: I feel like there was no plan B. Y, Yeah, I. 452 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 4: Called myself that. I even like took time off before 453 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 4: I went to college where I wasn't like in school 454 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 4: and wasn't clear I was even. 455 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: Going to college. But I still thought of myself as 456 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 3: an economist. 457 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 4: And then do you know, did a whole PhD in 458 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: it and like when I finished the things didn't go 459 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 4: well for me on the job market for a variety 460 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 4: of reasons. 461 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 3: And it was the first time at that point out 462 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 3: a PhD. 463 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 4: I was like twenty eight, twenty nine, and I was like, whoa, 464 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 4: maybe I'll do something else to be So I thought 465 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 4: about it and I didn't really have a plan B. 466 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 4: And I'm still an economist. 467 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of economists like playing poker. 468 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: If that's uh, you know, that would that's a solid 469 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: plan B. No risk involved at all. 470 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. I mean I've only played poker three times. 471 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 4: I've won two times, though, Oh wow, really large groups. 472 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 4: I think I don't like it because I think everyone 473 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 4: expects me to be good at it for that reason. 474 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 3: Yes, I agree. 475 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: I think I just think that there's some natural connection there. 476 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I mean I'm a naturally probabilistic thinker, and 477 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 4: then there's a game theory. 478 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm. 479 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: Actually calculating risk all of that. 480 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's also I don't like it because poker 481 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 4: is like a big game of risk and there's a 482 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 4: lot of things I can't control, but everyone expects me 483 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 4: to be good at it. 484 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 485 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: back on the Carol marcoid Show. 486 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 3: What do you worry about lately? 487 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 4: I'm worried about expertise, the state of expertise. I'm worried 488 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 4: on the one hand that everyone's just disregarding expertise. 489 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 3: When we really need it still. 490 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 4: But I'm also really mad at experts for abusing their 491 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 4: so on the one hand, there's part of me that 492 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 4: welcomes let's overflow the experts. They've abused their power. They 493 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 4: have really let their science go shoddy. On the other hands, 494 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 4: like what's replacing it might be even worse. 495 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about that a lot. Also, I feel 496 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: like I've been mad at experts for a while. The 497 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: COVID years really really, you know, bothered me a lot 498 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: the way things were handled. And but what we're moving 499 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: away from these experts and into people who are not 500 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: just like into the topic. They're just completely dabbling in 501 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: these topics. They like read the Wikipedia entry and then 502 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: pontificate on it. I'm not sure that's any better. But 503 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people who were not experts did a 504 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: lot of really great work during COVID. And if I 505 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: saw that kind of movement again, of like regular everyday 506 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: amateurs who immersed themselves in the information and in the 507 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: data and in the numbers and let things lead them 508 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: where they may, I feel like I'd be more into 509 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: throwing the experts out. 510 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 3: Well, it depends how you do. 511 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 4: I've been thinking about this a lot, you know, because 512 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 4: I'm an economist. I hate tariffs. I think they're horrible 513 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 4: for the economy. But and this is like the one 514 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 4: thing all economists agree on. But then there's part of 515 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 4: me that is like down with the experts, and we're 516 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 4: all at experts, and you know, experts are wrong, particularly 517 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 4: when you have consensus amongst experts, you should be suspicious, right, 518 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 4: and so and I see here these people who are like, 519 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 4: all the economists are wrong, and I'm like, okay, I 520 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 4: feel like I should be open to their arguments. 521 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 3: But then I notice they're not engaging with our arguments. 522 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 3: And I think this is the difference. 523 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 4: Is It's like you can say, hey, you know, the 524 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 4: thing about the economy particularly is well, not everyone's an economist. 525 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 4: Everyone participates in the economy, so they always have some 526 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 4: insight I don't have. So there's a way you can 527 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 4: be critical of experts if you understand their argument and 528 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 4: can explain why they're wrong. And what I'm seeing with 529 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 4: a lot of the sort of anti tariff brigade is 530 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 4: they're not doing that. They're not engaging with our arguments. 531 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 4: They're just saying, well, this will be good. Yeah, not 532 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 4: at the same time understanding where we're coming from, the 533 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 4: data we're grappling with, and explaining why we're wrong. 534 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: Right. I mean, I'm I've always been fairly anti tariffs, 535 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: and I find myself right now being like, let's see 536 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: what happens, because maybe I'm wrong, but what may happen 537 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: could be disastrous, So I don't know. It is a 538 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: delicate balance. But I definitely have softened a little bit 539 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: on tariffs only because I do think, what if what 540 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: if I'm incorrect? What if all of all that I 541 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: believe and I have read is wrong. There is that 542 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: place where I wonder if I'm not too committed to 543 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: positions and maybe should bend a little. 544 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 4: I just said I want to feel that way too, 545 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 4: and you know, but part of me then wonders if 546 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 4: the tariff fans are then doing themselves a disservice because 547 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 4: their arguments are terrible. Like, I'm open to the idea 548 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,239 Speaker 4: the entire economics profession is wrong. We've miss seen things. 549 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 4: I mean, it's not even that we're wrong. We're basing 550 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 4: it on past world And you could argue we're in 551 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 4: a different world and economies change and evolve and the 552 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 4: old real change. I'm open to that. I'm open to, 553 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 4: you know, I'm really trying to be open to that. 554 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 4: But like their arguments are poor, Like you can the 555 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 4: sort of prevailing expertise if you have a good argument, 556 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 4: but they're not bothering to do that, and maybe they exist, 557 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 4: I just haven't heard it yet. 558 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: Interesting. What advice would you give your sixteen year old self. 559 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 3: I would have faith in your choices. 560 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 4: I made some really strange choices throughout my career and 561 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 4: I was told constantly that they were terrible choices and 562 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 4: it would ruin my life. And they worked out after 563 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 4: a while, sometimes not right away. So I would have 564 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 4: faith that your choices would work out. And you really 565 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 4: have to, like I think I knew myself very well 566 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 4: at a very young age. Like you know, we've discussed 567 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 4: you lived in Scotland. I went to University Edinburgh undergrad 568 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 4: just sort of like sort of being in Europe out 569 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 4: of college and that at the time that was kind 570 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 4: of an odd thing to do, but it really was 571 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 4: the best thing for me. 572 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love Scotland. It's I mean that that is 573 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: a place that could do as a financial overhaul. But 574 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: other than that, I just. 575 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 3: Like the SNP. 576 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 4: It's like the worst government in Europe. 577 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. My second time living in Scotland, I 578 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: was young and dumb, and I was very into their 579 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: independence movement and I was looking for a job and 580 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: I ended up almost going to work for the SMP 581 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: before they were even ever elected to anything like literally 582 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: just free Scotland. But I ended up passing on that 583 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: thankfully and working in the Scottish government at the time. 584 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: But I just told the story to my fifteen year 585 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: old recently and she was like, I could not believe 586 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: that I was SMP or I was for any of that. 587 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: I was like nineteen years old. 588 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 3: To be fair, different party. 589 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 4: I think what I've learned from the SNP is this 590 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 4: is probably really into the weast for people. Maybe yeah, 591 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 4: it's okay, but a bigger point is no party should 592 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 4: be in power for that long on a post like 593 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 4: they were new. They just had a new government when 594 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 4: you were there, and so it was an interesting party 595 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 4: and independs always stupid that they had a point. But 596 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 4: the problem is they've been unopposed for like twenty five 597 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 4: years in Scotland and like no part like that's even why. 598 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 4: Like I was begrudgingly okay with Labor winning and announsking 599 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 4: the Tories, like, while I am more inclined to conservatives 600 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 4: in the UK, I feel like they're inmpowered too long. 601 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 3: You need to go out, you need to go back 602 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 3: in the wilderness. You need your regroup. 603 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 4: No party is good in power forever, and P when 604 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 4: you were dealing with them, were a very different party. 605 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 3: So yeah, in all fairness to you. 606 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, thank you. Nineteen year old Carol really 607 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: appreciates that well. I've loved this conversation. I always find 608 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: you so interesting and so just wonderful and us here 609 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: with your best tip for my listeners on how they 610 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: can improve their lives. 611 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 4: I think you have to be really aware of what 612 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 4: makes you happy. I mean not to be don't be selfish, 613 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 4: but like what matters to you, what your values are, 614 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 4: and be true to them. 615 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: I love it. That's really what it's all about. She 616 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: is Alison Schrager. Check her out in City Journal, Bloomberg 617 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: Opinion and buy her book, An Economist Walks Into a 618 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: Brothel and Other Unexpected Places to Understand Risk. Thank you, Allison, 619 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: thank you, thanks so much for joining us on the 620 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: Carol Mark With Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts