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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived. To you

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Speaker 4: never a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 2: pop stars who've actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc and

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Speaker 2: Megan is Outsick Today. Today is part two of our

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Speaker 2: interview with Zach Comfort, survivor of the Bride of Christ

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Speaker 2: Church headed by Thomas Clyde Smith Junior. In the second

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Speaker 2: half today, we'll discuss how Tom's control tactics got more

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Speaker 2: extreme once the group moved to the commune, including separating

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Speaker 2: children from their families, requiring people to hit each other

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Speaker 2: in church, and cycling children into his home to sexually

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Speaker 2: abuse them. We'll also talk about how the group began

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Speaker 2: to fall apart, and then we'll get into how Zach

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Speaker 2: is doing now and what his life is like working

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Speaker 2: in a psychiatric hospital.

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Speaker 3: Content warning.

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Speaker 2: Some of the stuff in today's episode will include descriptions

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Speaker 2: of violence and child sexual assault, as well as sexual

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Speaker 2: assault in general. Please be prepared if you listen to

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Speaker 2: this episode, so before we dive in, Actually we're gonna

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Speaker 2: do something a little bit different today. Megan is out

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Speaker 2: and I have a story to tell, and I have

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Speaker 2: brought in my friend Liz Abrams to tell it with

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Speaker 2: me because.

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Speaker 3: She actually shares the story with me as well.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I know you guys can't see me right now,

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Speaker 2: but I look amazing. And the reason I look amazing

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Speaker 3: Today. Megan is not in.

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Speaker 2: This studio with me because we have a special guest

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Speaker 2: in the studio with me doing our intro today, and

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Speaker 2: that is my friend Liz Abrams pop star also not

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Speaker 2: as Liz y two K. And Liz is here because

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Speaker 2: we have a story about a guy we both dated

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Speaker 2: that is fucking insane. So shall we begin to Did

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Speaker 2: you date him first?

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Speaker 5: Yes? The beginning of twenty twenty, like right before the pandemic.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so there's this guy named ben Belzer and you

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Speaker 2: dated him in twenty twenty. I dated him in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one briefly, But I don't know about you. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how connected you guys felt. But for me,

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Speaker 2: I like we zoomed for like hours before we met

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Speaker 2: in person because he was out of state, and I

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Speaker 2: just like thought that we had a really genuine connection.

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Speaker 2: Did you guys have like really long calls? Was it

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Speaker 2: kind of this oh similar thing?

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Speaker 5: Yea, I long phone calls, tons of texting. I don't

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Speaker 5: know if we facetimed that much. Yeah, it was like

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Speaker 5: he was kind of bopping around, like traveling here and there,

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Speaker 5: and he was like, Oh, I'm finally I'm gonna Well,

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Speaker 5: we have to say how how we met. We met

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Speaker 5: him on Hinge. We matched on hinge. Yeah, and apparently

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Speaker 5: he did with some other friends.

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Speaker 3: Of your He was matching on hinge left and right.

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Speaker 5: So it's getting busy. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So this man, okay, his name is ben Belzer. Before

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Speaker 3: we tell you the truth.

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Speaker 2: About ben Belzer, let's tell you about the ben Belzer

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Speaker 2: that we both got to know. So six foot five, handsome,

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Speaker 2: Harvard grad. I recently found out he was a debate

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Speaker 2: champion when he was at Harvard, which makes so much sense, funny, charming, right,

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Speaker 2: like basically like the.

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Speaker 5: Picture emotionally intelligent, I would say he did seem.

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Speaker 2: Emotionally intelligent, absolutely vulnerable, like would talk to talk about

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Speaker 2: like what he was experiencing that was hard for him,

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Speaker 2: like and that really felt really intimate.

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Speaker 5: Family person m suffered a stroke, so he was very

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Speaker 5: like involved with rebel rehabilitating his dad and yeah, working

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Speaker 5: with him on his ephasia and doing like speech therapy

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Speaker 5: with him.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, he's really good at like making you feel

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Speaker 2: a lot of empathy for him. And he seems he's

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Speaker 2: like the picture of you know, like white, all American,

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Speaker 2: like successful educated guy who you know in movies would

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Speaker 2: be like the protagonial spirit totally.

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Speaker 3: Like tech tech tech guys.

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Speaker 5: I still don't know what his business was, by the way,

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Speaker 5: his business was at least the last business was getting

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Speaker 5: people into school right before that all the sat prep

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Speaker 5: for like for kids applying to collegists, it was before that,

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Speaker 5: but very vague.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we both have these experiences where

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Speaker 2: we go out with him and we feel really like

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Speaker 2: I personally was like very into him. I have multiple

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Speaker 2: texts with my friends being like, he's just like so amazing.

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Speaker 2: Charming is the word that I used, He's so charming.

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Speaker 2: And Megan and I joked from episode one of this

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Speaker 2: show that if a man is charming at all, run

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Speaker 2: away and that literally no, no, no, no, but like, but

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Speaker 2: there is something like these types of people tend to

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Speaker 2: be extremely charismatic and extremely charming and know exactly which

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Speaker 2: buttons to push to make you, you know, feel a

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Speaker 2: strong connection with them.

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Speaker 3: How did it end with you? Guys?

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Speaker 5: So he confided in me that he was a recovering

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Speaker 5: sex addict, and I was like, okay, you know, I've

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Speaker 5: known lots of people that have addiction issues, and I

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Speaker 5: was like, all right, well you know, how's that going,

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Speaker 5: Like are you working on it? And then he proceeded

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Speaker 5: to tell me that he slept with his therapist, which

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Speaker 5: I thought was a bit psychotic. Yeah also bad therapist.

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Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, that was definitely like huge red flag to me.

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Speaker 5: I could just tell that like he thought he was

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Speaker 5: above it all. What do you mean, I mean, obviously

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Speaker 5: he wasn't working that hard. Right, and trying to like

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Speaker 5: nip that in the bud, right.

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Speaker 2: And I just want to We've talked about this, but

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Speaker 2: I just want to mention that, like my boyfriend is

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Speaker 2: a recovering sex addict, and so like it is really

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Speaker 2: interesting to me that Ben identified as a sex addict

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Speaker 2: as because of the information that.

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Speaker 3: We will shortly reveal, But like these things are not.

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Speaker 2: You can be a recovering sex addict and be a

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Speaker 2: wonderful person who has never harmed anyone in your life,

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Speaker 2: and you are only like being destructive to yourself.

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Speaker 5: So basically, like we hung out maybe like four or

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Speaker 5: five times, Like I brought him over to my best

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Speaker 5: friend's family's house for Super Bowl. Like he met people

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Speaker 5: that were really important to me in my life, hmmm,

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Speaker 5: that I was very close with. And yeah, I remember

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Speaker 5: like the first night that we hung out, we were

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Speaker 5: kissing and he started to kind of like choke me,

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Speaker 5: and I found that a little aggressive for like first kiss.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's like okay, I mean maybe he's just

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Speaker 5: like a little kinky or like whatever, but like the

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Speaker 5: first time, right, you know, so it kind of set

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Speaker 5: off an alarm bell in my head. And then he

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Speaker 5: he said you're gonna get me in trouble. I was like,

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Speaker 5: what what are you talking about? What does that mean?

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Speaker 5: I didn't really answer. Yeah, So that definitely stuck out

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Speaker 5: to me, that thing and the therapist thing. But anyway,

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Speaker 5: so we stayed friends. You know, I was open with him.

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Speaker 5: I was like, you know, this whole like like your

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Speaker 5: addiction thing, Like I understand that, I respect that that's

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Speaker 5: something you're working on maybe, but you know that it's

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Speaker 5: just a little too much for me, like right now

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Speaker 5: in my life, I'm I'm really looking for like stability.

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Speaker 5: And also you don't live here. You know. He was

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Speaker 5: living in Asheville, North Carolina with his family, and I

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Speaker 5: don't know, something told me. I was like not not it, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: not the right one. But I really liked him as

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Speaker 5: a person. I was like, let's stay friends. Like it

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Speaker 5: was cool, there was no bad blood. We stayed in touch.

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Speaker 5: I even recommended his SAT prep course to people. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he just seemed like a normal like maybe

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Speaker 2: like kind of a mess, like maybe doesn't fully have

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Speaker 2: his shit together, but like yeah, and I.

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Speaker 5: Mean that's okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: People go through different transitions in their lives and like

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Speaker 5: make changes and you know, sometimes they move back with

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Speaker 5: their family for a little bit for whatever reason. Yet

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Speaker 5: that none of this is like, but there was just

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Speaker 5: like an element of shadiness and I couldn't pinpoint it.

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Speaker 5: And he would also kind of like go mia for

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Speaker 5: little periods of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I went out with him three times in person

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Speaker 2: after our like face times, and.

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Speaker 3: I have a fucking picture of him in my bed

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Speaker 3: with my now.

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Speaker 2: Deceased dog, which is just like very upsetting now because

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Speaker 2: like that's how much I was like, oh, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe you know, and anyway I I have. I was

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Speaker 2: debating with her to play it because I have a

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Speaker 2: voice memo that I sent to him, and then I

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Speaker 2: have one that he sent back to me. I mean

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Speaker 2: for mine as being like, yeah, I need someone who's

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Speaker 2: like actually like available and like trying to hang out

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Speaker 2: with me and like consistent. And his voice memo back

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Speaker 2: is really interesting to listen to now because he's just

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Speaker 2: making excuse after excuse and knowing now and okay, we

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Speaker 2: will tell you guys what we're talking about, but knowing

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Speaker 2: now who he really was, it's so interesting because I'm like,

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Speaker 2: you are always the victim in your head, and meanwhile

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Speaker 2: you are being.

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Speaker 3: A fucking psychopath person, hurting.

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Speaker 5: People, creating many victims, many victims there.

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Speaker 3: So cut too.

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Speaker 2: So Fortunately, like he in his voice memo, he had said, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to hit you up when I'm like really

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Speaker 2: settled back in la, like I you know, you don't

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Speaker 2: have to respond or whatever. I met Jack like a

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Speaker 2: month later, and I've been in a relationship ever since.

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Speaker 2: And Ben was aware of Jack because I saw him

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Speaker 2: at a party once and he mentioned him seemed threatened

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Speaker 2: by Jack's muscles.

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Speaker 3: So I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: Probably has like his face on a start.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, cut too, I keep saying, cut too. Cut to

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Speaker 2: A couple of weeks ago, my friend's boyfriend, he came

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Speaker 2: up to me at her party and asked how I

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Speaker 2: knew Ben, and then proceeded to tell me what I

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Speaker 2: then reached out to you to tell you, which was

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Speaker 2: that Ben is in jail. Ben is in jail for

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Speaker 2: raping women. Ben has actually raped quite a few women,

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Speaker 2: and they allegedly.

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Speaker 5: According to the police, an extensive evidence.

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Speaker 2: They raided his home. They found yes quote, extensive evidence

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Speaker 2: in his home, which, like, we won't go into detail

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Speaker 2: about what that means, but it's pretty fucked up and

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Speaker 2: currently there are five victims who've come forward. There are more,

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Speaker 2: There are definitely.

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Speaker 5: More, many, many more.

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Speaker 2: Many more, And so we wanted to talk about it

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Speaker 2: because one like, there are victims who they are aware

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Speaker 2: of who have not yet been identified. They're hoping more

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Speaker 2: people will come forward.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, because I had no idea about this until you

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Speaker 5: DM me on Instagram and I was like, what going on?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I can't believe I didn't know about it,

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Speaker 3: you know, like some one who.

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Speaker 5: Happened in February. How why would we know? But like

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Speaker 5: you would, I don't know, like a serial rapist who's

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Speaker 5: they were looking for for a while enough to be

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Speaker 5: like in Los Angeles, Yeah, in Los Angeles, and it's

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Speaker 5: a very big case. He is facing life in prison.

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Speaker 5: So there are many felony counts.

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Speaker 3: There are many felony counts, a lot of.

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Speaker 5: Evidence that he's, you know, he's not going to get

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Speaker 5: out of.

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Speaker 2: He was clearly plotting these assaults very carefully and it

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Speaker 2: was premeditated, yes, and constructing like fake identities. So he

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Speaker 2: was finding women on seeking arrangement and other sites, typically

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Speaker 2: quite young eighteen nineteen twenty from my understanding, and.

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Speaker 5: Naive like girls that wouldn't stand a chance up against

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Speaker 5: like a six.

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Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, who, literally what woman would

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Speaker 2: We've talked about this a little. I'm just gonna put

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Speaker 2: it to put this out there, you guys went. I

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Speaker 2: was on seeking arrangement for like a month, and I

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Speaker 2: didn't want to talk about it for a long time.

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Speaker 2: I didn't like enter into an arrangement with anyone, but

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Speaker 2: I did go to coffee with someone. I did like

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Speaker 2: end up meeting someone on there, and like, I would

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Speaker 2: imagine that there are women who are who have like

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Speaker 2: potentially some shame about being on that website, and that

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Speaker 2: might be something that would prevent them from coming forward.

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Speaker 3: I was on seeking arrangement. It's not a big deal.

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying it doesn't have to be as stigmatized

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Speaker 2: as it is.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, don't make that the reason that you don't come

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Speaker 5: forward about a victim. Yeah, Like the detective was saying

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Speaker 5: that unfortunately, like shame and embarrassment are the main reasons

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Speaker 5: why girls don't come forward, but also because they may

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Speaker 5: not even know who he.

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Speaker 3: Is because he was making up a fake identities, or

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Speaker 3: that he.

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Speaker 5: Is in custody now on six point two million dollar

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Speaker 5: bill by the way.

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Speaker 2: Six million, yeah, I and the like this whole thing

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Speaker 2: is like it's so fucked up.

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Speaker 3: It really like it was really like stuck in my

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Speaker 3: head for days after finding out, because I'm like.

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Speaker 5: Well, we were both conflicted because we're like, oh my god,

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Speaker 5: like how bad is it? Like had these just dates

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Speaker 5: gone wrong? And maybe it was you know, misunderstandings or like,

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Speaker 5: you know, we I think we both felt well, it's

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Speaker 5: like you just don't want to believe that.

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Speaker 3: It's hard.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to accept that someone you know who you

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Speaker 2: thought was like you like dates and went out with

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Speaker 2: and liked like like it could be that bad. But

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Speaker 2: of course, like you see five victims. First of all,

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Speaker 2: if there are five people like the dude, the.

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Speaker 5: Fucking I thought that was yeah, until we thought.

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Speaker 3: Five was long, until we know that there there are

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Speaker 3: far more.

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Speaker 2: I want to I wanted to talk about this, and

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm happy that I'm talking about it with you

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Speaker 2: because also, like you know, I literally run a podcast

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Speaker 2: about could and about like people like this, and I

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Speaker 2: still was like entranced by this charismatic, manipulative person.

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Speaker 5: And happened to the best house.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and like imagine I don't know, like I could

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Speaker 2: totally see a world in which, you know, I wasn't

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Speaker 2: as put off by the excuses he was making in

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Speaker 2: his last text as I was, which in my when

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Speaker 2: I was younger, I probably would have continued to see

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Speaker 2: that person.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, when we didn't have as much like self

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Speaker 5: respect for ourselves or like or or maybe or just

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Speaker 5: like less experience, a less sense of urgency too, Like

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Speaker 5: I think we're at an age now where we really

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Speaker 5: want apart we're doing this or exactly, but like in

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Speaker 5: our early twenties or you know whatever, I was like, yeah.

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Speaker 3: But he's so tough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but anyway, I'm just like, I imagine, imagine if we

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Speaker 2: if I continued to date that person and then I

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Speaker 2: find out he's fucking he's Ted Bundy. He's like living

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Speaker 2: this double life where he's dating people for real and

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Speaker 2: giving them his real name on hand, and then he's

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Speaker 2: going out and hurting women in these other places, in

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Speaker 2: these other ways.

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Speaker 5: But you know, I'm going to reiterate to you what

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Speaker 5: the detective told me. She said, everyone that's come to

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Speaker 5: talk to me about Ben, everyone that's like in his life,

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Speaker 5: are amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So she's like, don't feel you.

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Speaker 3: Know, like like what's wrong with me?

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Speaker 2: We both separately spoke to the detective because we just

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Speaker 2: like wanted to see if there was any way we

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Speaker 2: could help.

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Speaker 3: We were talking about it for like twenty minutes. In

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Speaker 3: my mouth was.

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Speaker 2: Just like like open, like could not close it. I

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Speaker 2: was just like, how is this possible that this person

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Speaker 2: who I liked is someone like that?

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Speaker 5: Like the best word you use is shook.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. We were like how what?

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Speaker 5: What?

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Speaker 3: How? And why and how?

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Speaker 5: Like you know, and you start thinking what does this

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Speaker 5: say about me? Right? And like my judgment and my

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Speaker 5: choice in men? I mean yeah, like my match was

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Speaker 5: so there's so many people online that like, you know,

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Speaker 5: I could go out with, and like I chose this guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a really important point that you were making,

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Speaker 2: because they're expert manipulators.

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Speaker 3: They just are They're expert manipulators. There are men.

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Speaker 2: We hear so many stories, not just men, but we

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Speaker 2: hear so many stories about people who have multiple families

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Speaker 2: and people don't know like they are so skilled at

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Speaker 2: this type of thing. And it is a good, good

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Speaker 2: reminder and it just feeds into the thesis of the podcast,

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Speaker 2: which is that like.

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Speaker 3: Once you think you're safe.

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Speaker 2: You probably that's when you're not, like you have to

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Speaker 2: be aware that these people are out there and just

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Speaker 2: like have really good boundaries. And it's I think it

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Speaker 2: speaks to both of us like we didn't know what

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Speaker 2: exactly was going on with him obviously, because how could

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Speaker 2: you and why would you think it would be that extreme?

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Speaker 5: Why would yeah, why would our mind like ever go there?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I watch a lot of SVU, but like,

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Speaker 5: I've never known someone who's an actual yeah that psychopathic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but we did, but we did both like I

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Speaker 2: feel like something wasn't like that person was not there

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Speaker 2: was where we needed them to be.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was just really really good at hiding.

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Speaker 3: Okay, here's his last voice memo to me, just because

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Speaker 3: it's interesting.

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Speaker 6: So I totally agree a certain point, if you like somebody,

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Speaker 6: you just have to make time, like that's just what

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Speaker 6: you do.

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Speaker 4: The thing is, I'm already time.

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Speaker 6: Constrained and energy constrained, you know, compared to most people

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Speaker 6: because of my health stuff. And I don't like talking

383
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Speaker 6: about it and it's embarrassing. But it's not just that

384
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Speaker 6: I've been dealing with all these these random things, although

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Speaker 6: I have been and I know it sounds like excuses,

386
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 6: but it might actually be useful for me to give

387
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,119
Speaker 6: you like a full list of everything. There's been a

388
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Speaker 6: lot of stuff, but it's not just the stuff. It's

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Speaker 6: the stuff plus the fact that, like I'm not a

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Speaker 6: regular person. I do have health stuff and a certain

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Speaker 6: number of usable hours in my day. And I mean,

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Speaker 6: I don't know if you've noticed, but like I'm not

393
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Speaker 6: posting picks hanging out with people on Instagram, like I

394
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 6: deprioritize social stuff in general, but I have genuinely enjoyed

395
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 6: all the times we've hung out. And I think you're awesome.

396
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 6: You're beautiful and funny and fun and smart and it's

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Speaker 6: a cool person and I would like to hang out

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Speaker 6: with you again. And I you know, I know that

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00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 6: we have chemistry that's not you know, friends only chemistry.

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Speaker 5: But anyway, like excuse, you know, I'm not a regular person.

401
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 3: Oh he's such a victim.

402
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, he's going out and like ruining people's lives, like anyway, and.

403
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 5: Also his health stuff. I feel like they're definitely going

404
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 5: to use that as an excuse or some sort of

405
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 5: excuse in his defense. Like I don't know, like does

406
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Speaker 5: he have a freaking brain tumor. That makes him a sociopath.

407
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Speaker 3: God Like, I mean, they're like they literally would have

408
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:54,399
Speaker 3: to do something.

409
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Speaker 5: We should also tell the listeners what he claims his

410
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Speaker 5: health issue is. He claims he suffers from like chronic

411
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 5: fatigue syndrome or like some kind of encephalitis. It's all

412
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Speaker 5: a mystery. Nobody else he'd never been dyings.

413
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Speaker 2: It happened after he What he told me was it

414
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,959
Speaker 2: happened after he went It was Israel.

415
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 5: No, he went to like Southeast Asia, but he had

416
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 5: to take like a bunch of vaccines in order to go.

417
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Speaker 4: See.

418
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 2: He told me that it was after some trip where

419
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 2: he like ended up like in severe like severely dehydrated

420
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Speaker 2: the whole night, and.

421
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Speaker 3: Like he had a totally different story.

422
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Speaker 5: He also said that like he was being followed by

423
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Speaker 5: some like.

424
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 3: What people there, like, Oh wow, interesting.

425
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 5: Like he was in danger. He said, really, oh my god,

426
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 5: I don't remember the days, but it was some like

427
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 5: sensational story.

428
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Speaker 2: I was like, what, Also, this man was back and

429
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 2: forth between LA and North Carolina. So they are also

430
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Speaker 2: looking for victims in North Carolina.

431
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm ruling that out.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, Uh, we could talk about it. Forever, but we will.

433
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Speaker 2: We'll probably do an entire episod on it when the

434
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 2: court case actually comes out, and there's more that we

435
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 2: can talk about. But in the meantime, if if if

436
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 2: six foot five dude with a couple chest tattoos and

437
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Speaker 2: armed tattoos, has that.

438
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Speaker 5: One tattoo that says like eighty five.

439
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 3: I don't remember that one, but he has one that India.

440
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 5: Might be eighty six, like the year he was born.

441
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, I remember he had one that said less

442
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 2: is more, but then less was crossed out and more

443
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: is written above it.

444
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: More is more anyway, White six o' five, Harvard bro.

445
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 5: It's good that you played his voice too, because maybe

446
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 5: some girls didn't ever see or remember his face. Yeah, totally,

447
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 5: totally okay, so what might remember his voice?

448
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 3: Totally.

449
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 2: Anyone with information that can lead to the identification of

450
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 2: additional victims or witnesses contact LAPDS Operations West Bureau, Special

451
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 2: Assault Section at two one three four seven three zero

452
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: four four seven during non business hours or on weekends.

453
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 2: Call should be directed to one eight seven seven LAPD

454
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven, and anyone wishing to remain anonymous

455
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 2: should call the LA Regional Crime Stoppers at one eight

456
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 2: hundred two to two tips or go directly to LA crimestoppers

457
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: dot org and we will keep y'all posted on where

458
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: this story goes.

459
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 3: But I am so sorry to anyone.

460
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 2: If there's anyone out there who was hurt by this person,

461
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 2: I'm so so sorry that this happened to you, And.

462
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 3: Like, let's get this fucker in jail for the rest

463
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 3: of his life.

464
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 2: So the abuse started getting worse, and he's finding more

465
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: and more ways to control people.

466
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit more about that period.

467
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 4: So, like I said, he could take kids away from you,

468
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 4: he took all TVs you know there you had, like

469
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 4: I said before, completely cut you off from the outside world,

470
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 4: your cut off from your families. You had no money.

471
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 4: He started taking TV's away. You couldn't read books, couldn't

472
00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 4: listen to the radio, couldn't watch TV. And it kind

473
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 4: of was like that, but then more so too, like

474
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: everybody wore like the same clothes.

475
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: Basically everybody was no identity, just completely Yeah.

476
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 5: What did the clothes look like?

477
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,959
Speaker 1: For some reason, picturing Steve Jobs because it's specific class,

478
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that's not the kid.

479
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 4: No turtle necks. There was just really plain clothes. Like

480
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 4: the guys all wore like these like work suits that

481
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 4: were you know, zippered from like the bottom to the top,

482
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 4: you know, plain T shirts, jeans, stuff like that. Really

483
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 4: just stuff for working.

484
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: Were the women dressed like Mennonites or Amage or were

485
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: they also? Were they allowed to wear pants?

486
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, girls were not allowed to wear pants. Yeah,

487
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 4: so yeah, kind of Mennoniti if that helps with like

488
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 4: the visual aid, and then all the women had to

489
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 4: wear the coverings on their hair. Yeah, it was just

490
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 4: kind of stuff like that. As far as like the

491
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 4: control and the abuse started stepping up, he would do things.

492
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 4: To the kids was bad, you know, like that was

493
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 4: like a separate entity. But then to the adults he

494
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 4: would like start like slapping them around, you know, in

495
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 4: church in front of people and on their own, like

496
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 4: if he like caught you on your own. You know,

497
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 4: this girl told me this time where she came around

498
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 4: the corner and he was like beating this guy up,

499
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 4: and he's he's like fifty or sixty at this point.

500
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 4: So and these are all like twenty thirty year old guys,

501
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 4: So I mean they're kind of letting him do this,

502
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 4: you know.

503
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 2: Like they probably feel they've been brainwashing into thinking they

504
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 2: deserve it, right, Yeah.

505
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And we had to do these testimonies.

506
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 4: So every day when you came to church, Saturday and Sunday,

507
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 4: you go to church these super long sermons, and then

508
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 4: at the end of it, you would give a testimony,

509
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 4: a good testimony being like, you know, if you're a kid,

510
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 4: I did all my chores today and I like, you know,

511
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 4: prayed this morning and whatnot, and or you would have

512
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 4: a bad testimony, which was like you know, I thought about,

513
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 4: you know, masturbating or something like that, and yeah, towards

514
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 4: the end of it or you know, later on it

515
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 4: stopped being there were like no good testimonies. It was

516
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 4: all bad testimonies because if you didn't confess to something,

517
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 4: then you were hiding something. And then he would just

518
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 4: start accusing you of things. Yeah, and I mean he

519
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 4: would his most common one is that he would call

520
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: guys homosexuals, and so he'd make you stand up. He'd

521
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,479
Speaker 4: ask you if you were masturbating, and if you said no,

522
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: he called you a liar. And you know, and yeah,

523
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 4: and I mean and and the I mean, the whole

524
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 4: thing's just crazy because looking back, some of the guys knew,

525
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 4: like they had access to his house and they knew

526
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 4: that he was watching porn, like they watched they walked

527
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 4: in on him watching porn, so they knew that he

528
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 4: wasn't even following his own like etiquette, and his whole

529
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 4: doctrine was you were supposed to live the perfect life,

530
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 4: so a perfect life without sin. But I mean, he

531
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 4: wasn't even following his own, you know, teachings. And his

532
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 4: thing was that if you did sin, you had to

533
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 4: be punished, to be corrected, or else you would go

534
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 4: to hell. But you know, he's watching porn, He's doing

535
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 4: all these things, and nobody's holding him accountable. So you

536
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 4: didn't go to the doctors. If you went to the doctors,

537
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 4: you had to be dying, and even then sometimes you

538
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 4: wouldn't let you go. But so all the bursts were

539
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 4: done at home. And one of the babies died right

540
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 4: after right after birth, like that night, and he had

541
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 4: one of the young girls, one of that she was

542
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 4: like thirteen or fourteen, go to the backyard and dig

543
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,239
Speaker 4: a hole and put the baby in a suitcase and

544
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 4: bury it in the backyard. And my mom was actually

545
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 4: the midwife at the at the time, and she was like,

546
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 4: she was like, hey, we need to go get a

547
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 4: death certificate, and he was kind of like, you know,

548
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 4: leave the leave everybody out of it. We can handle it.

549
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 4: And she went and got the death certificate anyway, and

550
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 4: they made them dig the baby back up and bring

551
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 4: it in to be examined, and they determined that there

552
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 4: was a birth it had a birth defect, which is

553
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 4: why it died. So there was like no criminal charges

554
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 4: pressed or anything like that. But yeah, so that that

555
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 4: was one of the times the baby died. And then

556
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 4: other than that, for all intents and purposes, the births

557
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 4: were smooth. They went over smoothly. A lot of kids

558
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: were born with no complications. But the second baby that died,

559
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 4: they did take him to the hospital because it was

560
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 4: a premature birth because I believe the mother fell down

561
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 4: some stairs and that kind of initiated the birthing process.

562
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 4: And the story we all heard was that the baby

563
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 4: died in the hospital. We find out later that Tom

564
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 4: pretended to be the baby's dad and told them to

565
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 4: take it off life support, yeah, because he didn't want

566
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 4: to pay.

567
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 3: For Yeah, oh my god, did anyone find out.

568
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 4: And leave like no, the I mean, everybody at this

569
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 4: point was pretty much in. They weren't going anywhere.

570
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: It's the cost fallacy thing, like they've they've gone into

571
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: deep Yeah.

572
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they were waiting for their ROI But I mean.

573
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: It sounds like, you know, at different points, there are

574
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: different things that sort of you know.

575
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: Like a swath of people will leave after this thing

576
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: and this thing. Yeah, but this was not People didn't

577
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: really know what happened.

578
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 4: No, people were pretty far under the spell at this point,

579
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 4: and the parents just kind of like went with it,

580
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 4: like you know, this is what needed to happen, and

581
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 4: you know, he's with God now he's in a better place.

582
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 4: Stuff like that. But as far as like people leaving,

583
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 4: most everybody got kicked out after a certain point. I

584
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 4: would say after the early nineties, everybody got kicked out.

585
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 4: Very few people left on their own. Oh this is

586
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 4: a this is a story. One one family knew obviously

587
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 4: that it was a cult, and they were very close

588
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 4: to their daughter, so they kidnapped her from the cult.

589
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: They broke into the one of the church's houses, the

590
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 4: house that she was staying in. They stun gunned the members,

591
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 4: the male members, and uh, you know, zip tiede the

592
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 4: kids through them and their daughter. She was a grown

593
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 4: woman at the time. Zip tied them, threw them in

594
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 4: the car and drove off with them.

595
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 3: Wow.

596
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

597
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: And did did you ever hear from her again? Do

598
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: you know how that?

599
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 5: Yeah?

600
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, we did. So they were caught, you know, not

601
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 4: too much longer after, maybe like a couple of days

602
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 4: after down in California. I believe it went to trial

603
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 4: and the that this is where the name of my

604
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 4: podcast came from, boiled Frogs is because that was the

605
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 4: first time I had heard the term boiled frogs is.

606
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 4: In court, the lawyer compared you know, he basically said

607
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 4: the family was getting their daughter out of a dangerous

608
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 4: situation and they were acting in her best interest. And

609
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: eventually the they were acquitted, you know, the charges were dropped.

610
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: But he compared all the church members to boiled frogs.

611
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 4: You know, he said, you know, they don't even know

612
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 4: that their brainwashed. You know, it just happened slowly over time.

613
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

614
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can boil a frog without it knowing if

615
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: you just slowly exactly, yeah, exactly. And she was glad

616
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: to be out of it and the end, no, no,

617
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: she can back.

618
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: Oh shit, well that's why those cult intervention methods didn't

619
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: not work. They would just be traumatizing people, and of

620
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: course no one's going to wake up after you just

621
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: being traumatized.

622
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean, unfortunately I haven't heard what

623
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 4: did they call it? They called it deprogramming.

624
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, deprogramming is now considered widely unethical.

625
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 4: Yeah oh really okay, yeah yeaheah, Which I can see that,

626
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 4: and I mean it's it didn't work obviously, and I

627
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 4: can't think. I can't think of a successful deprogramming event.

628
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 4: But you know, her and her family willingly came back

629
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 4: to the church, and I forget what happened to them.

630
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 4: I think they got kicked out. I don't think they left.

631
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 4: So there was a term getting kicked out of the church,

632
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 4: and to a kid and even to the adults at

633
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 4: it at a certain point, so like as a kid,

634
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: you didn't know anything about the outside world. You literally

635
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 4: thought that it was like this like Mad Max kind

636
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 4: of world out there, like everybody out there was going

637
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 4: to try to kill you, you know what I mean,

638
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 4: they were all these like Satanists, and you couldn't survive

639
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 4: out there. So like if somebody got kicked out. You

640
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: were like, oh, no, they're dead. And but the adults

641
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: started seeing it that way too, but they grew up

642
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 4: like that, they knew better, but they were so brainwashed

643
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 4: that they started seeing the world like that as well.

644
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 4: So yeah, so he he would kick people out for

645
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 4: whatever reason. A lot of times it was something really mundane,

646
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 4: like breaking something, if your kids were bad. He tried.

647
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 4: He tried to give my brother and sister away in

648
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: the paper one day.

649
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 7: Like a cat like classified, yeah, freak kid, Oh my god, wow. Yeah,

650
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 7: why would he want less members?

651
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 4: I don't know. And he but they were making a

652
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 4: lot of money, so it's not like he was he

653
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 4: was like, oh, we need to keep these guys around

654
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 4: to like make more money or.

655
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 7: Like they were making a lot of money, but everyone

656
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 7: was starving.

657
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so I told you I was jumping around.

658
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 4: So at first everybody was starving. You know, people lost

659
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 4: a lot of weight, like we're like emaciated almost. But

660
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 4: then they started making money. Then you started feeding them,

661
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 4: and you know, you ate, well, the money was pouring

662
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 4: in because everybody gave their He paid them, you know,

663
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 4: he gave them checks. But everybody gave their checks right

664
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 4: back to the church. That was that was a requirement

665
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 4: for being a member, was that you didn't own any property,

666
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 4: and everything he made went to him. So they're all

667
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 4: working for his construction company and giving him all the money.

668
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 2: Which it also makes it so much harder for people

669
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 2: to leave because they have no ability to support themselves,

670
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: nowhere to go. That just I mean, that's the ultimate

671
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: tool of control as well. I mean one of.

672
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 4: Them exactly, And I mean, yeah, and you hit it

673
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 4: right on the head, like he cuts you off from

674
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 4: your family and made you write these like horrible letters

675
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 4: to them and your friends and everything. You have no money,

676
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 4: and you think if you leave, you're going to go

677
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 4: to hell. So not only is your mind like, oh

678
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 4: I can't leave her, I'm going to go to hell,

679
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 4: but also you don't have the resources to leave either.

680
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 3: So but so then he started kicking people out.

681
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then and then he started kicking people out.

682
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 4: And I think it's because he didn't like need that

683
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 4: many people anymore. That That's what I was saying about

684
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 4: why they they they started to make a lot of money,

685
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 4: so he didn't like need these people around. So anybody

686
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 4: I guess that he thought was like problematic or questioned him.

687
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: I imagine a lot of men alpha type men were oh.

688
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 4: Oh, he got rid of all of those guys, yeah, immediately, yeah, yeah.

689
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 4: And I mean there were still some in there that

690
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 4: were pretty I don't know if you call him alpha,

691
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: but you know, knowing them now, they're not like they're

692
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 4: not pushovers. But yet anybody who like stood out to

693
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 4: him was gone immediately, and he made he made like

694
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 4: a like a show of it too. Like I remember

695
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 4: one guy got kicked out. What was it for? Uh?

696
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 4: He like he like said he was molesting his daughter.

697
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 2: And Tom said that the guy was molesting his daughter.

698
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and this was in church. He said he

699
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 4: was molesting his daughter something like that. I can't remember

700
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 4: the details. And basically like grabbed him by his hair,

701
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 4: started like you know, yanking him around, screaming at him,

702
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 4: and then told him to get out. And all the

703
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 4: you know, everybody in church kind of stood up and

704
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 4: the guys like escorted him out the door and like

705
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 4: basically threw him out the door. And that guy wasn't

706
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 4: even necessarily problematic. He for some reason, Tom just didn't

707
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 4: like him, but he did. And this is kind of

708
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 4: getting ahead, but Tom started this thing where he started

709
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 4: giving other like not giving other people's kids away to

710
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 4: be punished, but giving them away because they couldn't. Certain

711
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 4: couples couldn't have children. So he was like, yeah, so

712
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 4: he kind of put it out there that like, hey,

713
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 4: these people don't can't have kids. You know, wouldn't it

714
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 4: be great if you could help them kind of thing you.

715
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 2: Have yourself, if you keep your kids instead of giving

716
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: them to the person who really needs them.

717
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 4: Oh my god, exactly.

718
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 5: Wow.

719
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 4: And so people started doing that. People started giving their

720
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 4: kids to you know, other members, a few of my

721
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 4: that happened to a few of my siblings. And Tom

722
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 4: actually this is how it started because him and his

723
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 4: wife couldn't his wife couldn't have kids. His new wife

724
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 4: and she wanted kids allegedly, and uh, he couldn't adopt.

725
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 4: He said, he tried to adopt, but because of his

726
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 4: status as a sex offender, the state wouldn't let him adopt.

727
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: So he was like, yeah, yeah, I mean the state

728
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 4: doing something right. Yeah, And he said he you know,

729
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 4: brought it forth to the congregation as in, you know,

730
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 4: could you guys pray for me to find a way

731
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 4: for me to have a child or for me and

732
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 4: my wife to have a child. And then you know,

733
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 4: the members obviously were like, oh yeah, let's let's give

734
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 4: them our kids. So they started, Yeah, they started promising

735
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 4: him their you know, their next their nextborn child, stuff

736
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 4: like that. And oh this so the kid I told

737
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 4: you that was taken off life support in the hospital. Uh,

738
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 4: the parents of that child, they were supposed to give

739
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 4: him that kid that was on life support. And uh,

740
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 4: when that kid died, they gave him their next child.

741
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 4: Oh my, so not their next child, excuse me, their

742
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 4: child that was already the same child.

743
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, oh my god. Have you spoken to them

744
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 3: or any of these?

745
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 4: Uh? Yes, I spoke to the dad. The mom, she's

746
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 4: still kind of in the mindset of the church. She

747
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 4: doesn't think anything that happened was wrong in the church. Yeah,

748
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 4: So I did not speak to her. She did not

749
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 4: she did not want to talk. And but the dad,

750
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 4: the dad.

751
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 3: You know, and what his feelings, what's his feelings on it?

752
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 4: I mean, he didn't he didn't elaborate on his feelings.

753
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 4: I tried, you know, I tried to pull it out

754
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 4: of him a little bit, but essentially he just thought

755
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 4: what happened was wrong. You know. He would say that.

756
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 4: But he said, like his mindset, and he says it

757
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 4: in the podcast, his mindset of giving his child away

758
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 4: was that, you know, he was he was giving his kid.

759
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 4: The kid was going to have a better life. Because

760
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 4: he's gone for two weeks at a time, his kid

761
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 4: didn't recognize him. You know, when he came home, the

762
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 4: kid would cry. And but at the pastor's house, his child,

763
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 4: his son was going to have a better life. You

764
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 4: know that you had toys at the pastor's house. There

765
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 4: was toys. Nobody else had toys.

766
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, you guys what you didn't have books?

767
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: You didn't have toys, Like I didn't have TV or

768
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: media like that, but.

769
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 5: I had books.

770
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 3: What were you guys doing?

771
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 4: Honestly, we were working, working, and just.

772
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: Working in gardening, building homes.

773
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: What do you mean what does working look like?

774
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 5: Uh?

775
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 4: We had these huge like farms, and you took care

776
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 4: of the animals like you moved pipes, you watered things.

777
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 4: You yeah, you gardened, just you built things when things

778
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 4: needed to be built. Uh man, you know, I'm trying

779
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 4: to think you cleaned a lot of things, but I

780
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 4: mean we had huge gardens. Yeah, so you were you

781
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 4: were weeding those you know all day you were feeding animals.

782
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 4: You know, I'm trying trying to think it just it

783
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 4: seems like a lot of hard work. I remember moving

784
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 4: pipes by hand. Have you have you driven by like

785
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 4: farmland and you see the pipes out in the field.

786
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

787
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: Do you think he was abusing the girls sexually or what?

788
00:40:58,680 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: What do you think his intentions?

789
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 4: So he definitely was doing stuff with kids of both genders,

790
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 4: so grooming. Uh, I mean, looking back, it's hard, it's

791
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 4: it's it's hard to say what he was doing for sure,

792
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 4: But I mean he was being very nice. He would

793
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 4: come and talk to me specifically and would be very

794
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 4: nice and asked me like the only time I went

795
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 4: to a restaurant, uh was with him? And you know,

796
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 4: he would just do those things for you. He'd be like, hey,

797
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 4: do you want to you want you want to go

798
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 4: get food with me and do stuff like that. So

799
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 4: he'd come up to you and like do these like

800
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 4: really nice things, and then you know, then he'd pop

801
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 4: it on you and be like, you know, do you

802
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 4: want to come live with me? So it's like, hey,

803
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 4: you know I took you out a restaurant, wasn't that great?

804
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 4: Like you know, things like that, and then you know,

805
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 4: then he would do other stuff eventually at his house.

806
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: So he was cycling kids through his house basically just

807
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: to abuse them and calling them his children pretty much.

808
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 4: Yeah wow. And he had two kids stayed with him.

809
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 4: The longest one was my younger sister. He had her

810
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 4: for four years. And this this kind of blew my mind.

811
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 4: I was talking to my dad about it and I said, uh,

812
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 4: do you remember letting my sister live with Tom? And

813
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 4: he goes, oh, yeah, she was. She was there for

814
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 4: you know, a month or two or something like that.

815
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 4: I was like, she was there for four years and

816
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 4: he he didn't. He like, I couldn't convince him that

817
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 4: she was.

818
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 3: There for four years.

819
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 4: Yeah wow. Yeah. He was like, no, that was only

820
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 4: like a month. He's like maybe two. I was like, no,

821
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,959
Speaker 4: that was that was a really long time.

822
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 2: And so she obviously experienced I am assuming a significant

823
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: amount of abuse there.

824
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 4: Yes, And you kind of asked me how things ended, like,

825
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 4: you know, in the direction they were going. Yes. So

826
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 4: things were going on with myself in her at the time,

827
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 4: and we ended up having to go to the doctor

828
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 4: for it. And uh, the doctor obviously was like you know,

829
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 4: I think something's going on. So we turned it into

830
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: child services. And when you were old. I was nine

831
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 4: at this point and my sister was four years old. Yeah, okay, wow.

832
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 4: So we had to go to the doctor and uh,

833
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 4: I remember we got the bill for the doctor and

834
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 4: one of the adults was like screaming at me in

835
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 4: the room, like reading off the bill, like what the

836
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 4: bill was for. And I just kind of remember thinking

837
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 4: like like I don't know what you want me to

838
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 4: do about that, Like I is so took Uh. So

839
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 4: they had my mom do it. So they gave us back,

840
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 4: they gave my sister back. I told him. So he

841
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 4: kept coming in and I'm not going to get into details,

842
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 4: but he kept coming into the room at night, and

843
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 4: he said he was like checking to see if you

844
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 4: peed the bed. He was obsessed with like did you

845
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 4: you know, did you pee the bed? And you know what,

846
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 4: whatever would happen from there, And I just remember I

847
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 4: was sitting in the living room one day and I

848
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 4: was like, I was like, I don't I can't keep

849
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 4: doing it, Like I was like, you know, I got

850
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: to get out of here. Basically, So I told him

851
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 4: we were watching TV and I told him I was like,

852
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 4: I want to go home. I just said it, you know,

853
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 4: out of the blue, and he started laying into me.

854
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 4: You know, he was just like, he was like, you

855
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 4: want to go home, you want to be with your mommy,

856
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 4: and blah blah blah.

857
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: And then yes, I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm a

858
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: child who would like to be nine years old.

859
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

860
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 2: Quick side note, we did discuss sex experiences in further

861
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: depth here, but out of respect for his story, we

862
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: are going to leave them out of the episode. So

863
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: a lot of horrific abuse was obviously happening in this group,

864
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: and fortunately he started kicking people out of the group.

865
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: Can you just tell us more about that and kind

866
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 2: of get into how it all fell apart.

867
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, So he was kicking people out here and there

868
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 4: for this and that. I kind of think it had

869
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 4: to do with like what he was doing to the kids,

870
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 4: because it kind of correlated with the kids that were

871
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 4: living with him, and then once they went back to

872
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 4: their homes, he would kind of get rid of the adults.

873
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

874
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: So once he'd gotten oh.

875
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 4: Basically, and he would do this thing too where it

876
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 4: was kind of like, like I said, what he did

877
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 4: with that girl where he said that she was like

878
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 4: lusting after him, So he kind of made it to

879
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 4: where he would decredit like you and like what you

880
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 4: would say. So if she were to go to her

881
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 4: parents and say, you know, he did this or he

882
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 4: did that, he would beat her to the punch and

883
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 4: be like, well, she was lusting after me like he

884
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 4: did with his daughter.

885
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the very first one, she was seventeen, she walked

886
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: on to me.

887
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, no exactly, And I mean it's really gross

888
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 4: how he's describing, you know, his daughter coming on to him. Yeah,

889
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 4: so he would do that. So and then the adults

890
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 4: anything he said, they just believed it. So if she

891
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 4: were to say that, then they would like, she would

892
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 4: get in trouble because she's the one having those impure

893
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 4: thoughts a five year old about you know, this sixty

894
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 4: five year old guy. So anyways, Yeah, people were getting

895
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 4: kicked out for anything. Oh, you would get you would

896
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 4: go out of the fellowship a lot. And I don't

897
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 4: know if they had something like similar to this in

898
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 4: your guys's groups. It was like shunning essentially.

899
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: Or so and Jevah's witnesses, I feel like, but a

900
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: little bit yeah, yeah.

901
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Jehovah's witnesses do it. This was a little more extreme.

902
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 4: It was you weren't allowed to talk to anybody, and

903
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 4: nobody was allowed to talk to you unless they were

904
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 4: telling you what to do. You slept away from other people,

905
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 4: you ate away from other people. You didn't you ate, uh,

906
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 4: just plain rice. You didn't get anything else. And they

907
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 4: called that the rice diet. So if you were bad,

908
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 4: you know, you'd be kicked out of the fellowship. Uh

909
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 4: and go on a rice dad. But this was to

910
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: the adults too. This was like one of the main

911
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 4: things he did to the adults, men and women. He

912
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 4: would shave their heads and then uh, kick them out

913
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 4: of the fellowship. So you you wouldn't talk to anybody

914
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 4: for months. And this happened to the kids too, So

915
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 4: you know, you just go months without talking to anybody,

916
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 4: and uh, you know everybody kind of treats you like

917
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 4: kind of shit at the time.

918
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: So people were like continually receiving these punishments and then

919
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 2: eventually just like being threat.

920
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah yeah, and then you'd kick you out. So

921
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 4: when everything kind of dissolved dissolved, Uh, there was like

922
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 4: a there was like this terrible month. I just remember

923
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 4: that as like the last month and again looking back,

924
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 4: because I went through like the paperwork from child Services

925
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 4: and stuff, and I mean they kind of dropped the

926
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 4: ball because there was like pretty clear signs of stuff

927
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 4: going on. And at my first evaluation at the doctor,

928
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 4: you know, it said I was skinny because I was

929
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 4: always on this like rice diet, so I was kind

930
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 4: of like, you know, malnutrition. But then once the investigation

931
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 4: was going, they made me drink these shakes like three

932
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 4: times a day to gain weight. So I had this

933
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 4: like great appearance at the you know, when child Services

934
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 4: came through. But he gave my sister back to my

935
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 4: mom and told her that she she could not say

936
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 4: that my sister had been living with him at all.

937
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 4: So child services had no idea that you know, she

938
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 4: was living with a sex vender. They had no idea

939
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 4: that you know, any of the kids were. But it

940
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,959
Speaker 4: was only myself and my sister that went and got

941
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 4: evaluated and they basically close the case. But during the

942
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 4: whole time he was he had my mom writing letters,

943
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 4: he had his lawyer bombarding them, you know, saying you

944
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 4: know basically drop you know, drop these charges or you know,

945
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 4: be done with the whole thing, or you know, there'll

946
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 4: be legal action and blah blah blah.

947
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 3: Who was saying that to who Tom.

948
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 4: Was having his lawyer? He had my mom write letters

949
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 4: to child Services and the hospital threatening them for turning

950
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 4: the kids into child services.

951
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,479
Speaker 2: Threatening child services with a lawyer is a bold move.

952
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, like I said.

953
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 4: This guy ahead bold Wow.

954
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: Was there a lawyer in the group.

955
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 4: No, No, we never met the lawyer that. This was

956
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 4: just somebody that you know, worked for him privately, or

957
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 4: worked for the church privately, I guess you would say.

958
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 4: And he kind of got in my opinion again, he

959
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 4: kind of got spookeed that like that. That's what I

960
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 4: think happened. Like he didn't want to go back to jail.

961
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 4: He you know, he didn't want what was happening to

962
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 4: be found out. And he had a lot of money,

963
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 4: like millions and millions of dollars. You know, we had

964
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 4: a bunch of boats, He had a ton of cars,

965
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 4: Like he didn't even drive all of his cars. And

966
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 4: I think he kind of wanted to keep that and

967
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 4: not go to jail. So he then he started kicking

968
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 4: people out. But he started doing like crazy stuff almost

969
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 4: like he wanted to get people to leave voluntarily, Like

970
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 4: he had all the adults come up and beat all

971
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 4: the kids in front of the church. So the kids

972
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 4: had to come up one at a time and get

973
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 4: beat in front of the church. And then if you

974
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 4: didn't cry, then he would just have you get beaten

975
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 4: until you cried. So you know, you got the tears

976
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 4: going pretty quickly.

977
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: Wow.

978
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 4: And then he had the next day because you had

979
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 4: church Saturday and Sunday, then he had all the women

980
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 4: come up and get beat in front of the church.

981
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 4: And then he had all the men beat each other

982
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 4: in front of the tar.

983
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 3: What WHOA.

984
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 2: So they would just go up and like one person

985
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 2: at a time would get like beaten until they cried.

986
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

987
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 3: Fucking psychopath on every level.

988
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: I mean all each thing is psychopathic, but all of

989
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 2: these together are just like what a masochist.

990
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 3: It's crazy.

991
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: And were people leaving?

992
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 4: No, No, people were not leaving. That's a crazy thing.

993
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 4: So like how many people were in there at this point,

994
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 4: maybe sixty at this point, and maybe it did do

995
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 4: it down to like fifty including the kids, and like

996
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 4: two people left I want to say, like of their

997
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 4: own volition, But I mean it was at that point

998
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 4: when they were kind of like, Okay, things are getting

999
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 4: really bad. But the way they described it is they

1000
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 4: just said, you know, it just seems like things aren't

1001
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 4: going to get any better, like this is never going

1002
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 4: to change kind of thing. But like I said, I

1003
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 4: feel like he almost pushed them to that point purposefully

1004
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 4: because he just like it was every single day something

1005
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 4: he was having people do some wild thing, you know,

1006
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 4: like you know, beating each other, everybody had to shave

1007
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 4: their heads, well you know, yeah, just doing things like that.

1008
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 2: I got to say, Zach, this is so much crazier

1009
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 2: than I realized initially, and I'm so glad. I mean,

1010
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,479
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to cut you off, but I'm so glad

1011
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 2: you're doing the podcast because people need to know that

1012
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: this happens.

1013
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 4: Thank you. Yeah, thanks. I mean originally I was like, what.

1014
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 4: One of the reasons I did it is because it

1015
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 4: kind of felt like he got away with everything, you know,

1016
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 4: and I was kind of that didn't really sit well

1017
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 4: with me. And then the other reason too, is because

1018
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 4: nobody really believed me. So when I did the podcast,

1019
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 4: I had I purposefully put interviews with other people in.

1020
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 4: I didn't narrate the whole thing. I purposely had them

1021
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 4: tell that, you know, the story that way at the

1022
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 4: very least that some of it was credible.

1023
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's great. It is set up

1024
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 2: really great in that way. You really get to hear

1025
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 2: all of the different perspectives on it and all you

1026
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 2: know it it's like, you know, actual journalism.

1027
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, it felt I don't want to say it

1028
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 4: felt cool, but I was like, I could see, you know,

1029
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 4: doing journalism.

1030
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: It feels really cool.

1031
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 5: Totally.

1032
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was awesome. Well in that regard.

1033
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 3: People getting kicked out.

1034
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 2: People are getting kicked out, and what happened to him?

1035
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, how did this end? So he brought how

1036
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 4: it ended is he brought everybody into. We had this

1037
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 4: giant like workshop or you know shop. He brought everybody

1038
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 4: in and basically said, you know, you guys aren't worth it.

1039
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 4: You're you're all going to hell. I can't do this,

1040
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 4: you know anymore. You need to leave. And then I

1041
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 4: just remember them begging to stay, like begging him to stay. Wow,

1042
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 4: and the people that were left anyway, and he said,

1043
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 4: you know, he said, okay, you can stay. And then

1044
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 4: the next literally like the next weekend or you know,

1045
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 4: a month later, he was like, okay, everybody's out and

1046
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 4: kicked like people on mass, he sent you know, he

1047
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 4: sent us away. He made everybody sign something, you know, beforehand,

1048
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 4: saying you know, they weren't taking any money or anything

1049
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 4: like that, and then that, I mean, that was basically it.

1050
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 4: He still kept a couple of people around, but he

1051
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 4: eventually kicked them out too, or one of the families

1052
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 4: left on their own, and after that, you know, I

1053
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 4: left after that, so I only got stories of what happened,

1054
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 4: but I mean it didn't last much longer, so it

1055
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:46,959
Speaker 4: was pretty Were you glad?

1056
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: Were you glad to leave?

1057
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,959
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, I was thrilled, but at the same time

1058
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 4: kind of like really kind of scared too, because I

1059
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 4: was like, well, now I guess I'm going to hell.

1060
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 4: But at the same time, I was also kind of

1061
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 4: over and I was I didn't go into too much

1062
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 4: detail I could have, but I was kind of the

1063
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 4: illusion was kind of lost to me at that point.

1064
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,439
Speaker 4: I specific I thought he was a prophet. I thought

1065
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 4: he could like read my mind somehow. I don't know why,

1066
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 4: but I had to lie to him one day, and

1067
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 4: because I didn't want my brother had done something he

1068
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 4: like put a lasso around my neck. So I had

1069
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 4: this like huge welt across my neck. And I knew

1070
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 4: if anybody found out that he would get in a

1071
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 4: lot of trouble. So I, like, you know, wore my

1072
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 4: shirt up really high and but he saw it. One day.

1073
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 4: He asked me what happened, and I said that I

1074
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 4: fell and like, you know, my neck got caught on

1075
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 4: a rope. But I thought about it seriously for a minute.

1076
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 4: I was like, oh man, I can't lie to this guy.

1077
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 4: He's gonna read my mind. And uh, I lied to

1078
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 4: him and he didn't know, like and I was like,

1079
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 4: this guy's full of shit. But you didn't know anything.

1080
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 4: So that's when it kind of like was lost on me.

1081
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 4: But yes, I was. I was excited to leave, but

1082
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 4: also at the same time, uh, really worried. But I

1083
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 4: mean that went away very quickly after we were out,

1084
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 4: because you, I mean, you see what's actually going on.

1085
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 2: Can you just kind of describe did you go back

1086
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 2: to public school after that?

1087
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 5: What was that like?

1088
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:18,720
Speaker 3: And what was it like with your family?

1089
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that was actually kind of interesting. So my

1090
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 4: we left, they sent us to, uh to Climate Falls,

1091
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 4: and uh, this is kind of funny because we get

1092
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 4: off the bus and there's this this African American lady

1093
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 4: standing outside the bus like crying, waiting to greet my dad,

1094
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 4: and he like runs out and they're hugging and you know,

1095
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 4: and I was like, I was like, Who's who's that

1096
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 4: black lady hugging my dad? And then he was like,

1097
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 4: this is your aunt. And that's how I found out

1098
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 4: we were you know, we were a part black and

1099
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 4: uh because I didn't know before, but uh, that was

1100
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 4: kind of the first experience getting you know, just getting

1101
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 4: off the bus. And then it was kind of I mean,

1102
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 4: my my family was on my dad's side, they were

1103
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 4: very like loving. We kind of got bombarded when we left,

1104
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 4: Like my mom's family came up from Vegas and like

1105
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 4: met all of us. We started meeting all these relatives

1106
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 4: that you know, we didn't even know we had. It

1107
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 4: was just such a different experience. And then I mean,

1108
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 4: like people that were like they were really excited to

1109
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 4: see you, and then just seeing how they like, you know,

1110
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 4: everybody kind of embraced like my parents after not seeing them,

1111
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 4: I kind of I remember thinking like, like, these guys

1112
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 4: are way better than the How did you leave these people?

1113
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 4: For the people in the church. But you know, I

1114
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 4: guess it probably wasn't always like that.

1115
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I imagine that's a major adjustment period, but

1116
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 2: you're still a kid, and kids do adjust to things

1117
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 2: shockingly well.

1118
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 3: I feel like sometimes.

1119
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 1: Even adults resilience.

1120
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we are resilient.

1121
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 2: But have you, like, how has your journey been contending

1122
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 2: with this experience and processing it? And you know, have

1123
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 2: you do you feel that you've healed or at least

1124
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: are you in process?

1125
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 5: Uh?

1126
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say continuously in process. But I would

1127
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 4: say I like, uh yeah, it was definitely it was

1128
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 4: definitely a journey. I mean I ignored it for for

1129
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 4: a long time, but I did listen to uh I

1130
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 4: listened to the podcast you guys did with about the

1131
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 4: Narcissist not not too long ago. And I always I

1132
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 4: always used to think of myself as like I would

1133
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 4: collect like good characteristics I saw from people because I

1134
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 4: didn't really know how to behave. So if I like

1135
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 4: saw somebody do something that I thought, oh, that's like

1136
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 4: really good, Like you stuck up for your friend or

1137
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 4: you know, or you gave somebody you like, you know,

1138
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 4: helped him way across the street, I was like, I

1139
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 4: like that, but no, it was it was kind of tough,

1140
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 4: uh at first, because yeah, I did go back, I

1141
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 4: did go to public school, and that was really that

1142
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 4: was a culture shock obviously.

1143
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, to say the least, Hi, guys, what's up?

1144
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, normal people, Yeah it is I everything's okay here.

1145
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 5: Wow.

1146
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 4: Yeah. I didn't know anything about like culture.

1147
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 5: Uh.

1148
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 4: So they would talk to me about stuff and I

1149
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 4: was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I

1150
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 4: was like, but if you want to, like talk about

1151
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 4: Jesus or the Bible, I got you. So yeah, it

1152
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 4: was a really it was a really weird couple of years.

1153
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 4: And then one thing I you know, I'll regret forever

1154
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 4: is uh, I was really mean to some girls when

1155
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 4: I when I got out, because in the church, women

1156
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 4: were seen as like less than people. So when I

1157
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 4: went to public school and these girls were like, you know,

1158
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 4: said things to me that I thought were like, you know,

1159
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 4: how dare you say that? I was really really unpleasant.

1160
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 4: And uh fortunately, one of the girls went to the

1161
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 4: principal at our school, and you know, it was like, hey,

1162
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 4: this kid's picking on me, and the principal brought me

1163
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 4: in and talked to both of us and basically kind

1164
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 4: of he was like, hey, do you know like you're

1165
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 4: being a bully basically? And I like, I didn't say

1166
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 4: a word during the whole meeting. I didn't say anything

1167
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 4: because I was just like mad that I even had

1168
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 4: to be there. And then but afterwards I was thinking

1169
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 4: about it. I was like, I'm not a bully it.

1170
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 4: I was like, I don't bully people. And then I

1171
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 4: was thinking, like, you know, why am I? So I

1172
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 4: was like, but this girl like did me wrong? I

1173
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 4: was like, but why do I think she did me wrong?

1174
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 4: And so I like played it over and I was like,

1175
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 4: well she said something to me. Okay, that's not that

1176
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 4: big a deal because you know, plenty of people say

1177
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 4: that to me. I can't remember what it was exactly.

1178
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 4: I just remember the thought process. And then I was like, yeah,

1179
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 4: it's not that big of a deal. I was like,

1180
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 4: why is Why does it bug me so much? And

1181
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 4: I was like, because she like she has like that's

1182
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 4: not her place, Like she is a woman, how dare she?

1183
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 4: And then I remember thinking why do I think that? Like?

1184
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh, I think that because that's

1185
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 4: what Tom taught everybody, And what.

1186
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 3: Are you able amount of self awareness? Is it more

1187
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 3: self awareness than most adult men, I know, women, you know, womens.

1188
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, why am I thinking?

1189
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: Oh okay interesting?

1190
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah yeah, well.

1191
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 4: I mean thank you, but thank you. But I mean

1192
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 4: when you're like I said, we'd be out of the

1193
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 4: fellowship for a long time. And if you can't talk

1194
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 4: to people, you think. And I did quite a bit

1195
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 4: of thinking, so you know, you kind of like talk

1196
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,439
Speaker 4: to yourself. And that was one of the things I did.

1197
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess you would call it like checking

1198
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 4: in with yourself or like like run thoughts by myself

1199
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 4: because or else you just kind of feel crazy, Like

1200
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 4: I would get so angry at things, or you know,

1201
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 4: just like get like these horrible thoughts and I'd be like, okay,

1202
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 4: you can't do that. Let's let's talk about it, buddy.

1203
01:01:55,240 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 3: So you know, dude, crazy article time minute.

1204
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 2: This is like literally, yeah, we're still going to therapy

1205
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 2: trying to look at skill.

1206
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, oh, I mean I don't have it mastered

1207
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 4: by any means.

1208
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 3: But the attempt, the attempt is the key.

1209
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 4: The attempt. Yeah, I gave it the old college track,

1210
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 4: so uh yeah, So I did notice that I had

1211
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 4: like some bad traits that were carried over from you know,

1212
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 4: from growing up in that environment. So from that point

1213
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 4: I I never said a bad word to that girl.

1214
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 4: After that, I didn't apologize, so like, if you're listening now,

1215
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 4: I apologize, But but I did purposefully alter my behavior

1216
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 4: at that point in that way. And I mean, I

1217
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 4: got in a lot of trouble that A lot of

1218
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 4: bad things happened, you know, after that.

1219
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 2: And is this experience part of what inspired you to

1220
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: work in mental health or just yeah, what's that journey been?

1221
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 4: So No, that was kind of an accident. And that's

1222
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 4: kind of a crazy story too. I'll tell you that. Basically,

1223
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 4: my brother got me a job at this kind of

1224
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 4: like group home for teenagers. And I was eighteen at

1225
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 4: the time, and you know, I had had odd jobs

1226
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 4: before that, but at this group home, I was like, man,

1227
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 4: these kids like they're really like messed up, but I

1228
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 4: like I vibe with them, you know what I mean,

1229
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 4: Like I understand like if you've had a bad childhood,

1230
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 4: like of course you're gonna be like a shitty person

1231
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 4: to some extent. And some of these kids, I mean,

1232
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 4: you think my childhood is bad, Well, if you if

1233
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 4: I could tell you about these kids. It was horrible

1234
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 4: and it was like a group home, but it was

1235
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 4: for kids that had committed crimes. What was the unit

1236
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 4: that I worked in, and so it was either that

1237
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 4: or they would be in Juviie. And while I was there,

1238
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 4: you know, obviously I liked it. It kind of weighs

1239
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 4: on you. But while I was there, this girl came through.

1240
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 4: Our therapist would meet anytime we got a new admin

1241
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 4: or the therapist would come and she'd be like, Hey,

1242
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 4: we're getting this kid. This is the breakdown on them.

1243
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 4: And one time she did that and she's talking about

1244
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 4: this girl and she says, I don't want any of

1245
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 4: you to be alone with this girl. She makes accusations,

1246
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 4: and you know you're not supposed to be alone with

1247
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 4: the kids anyway. So I was like, okay, whatever, but

1248
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 4: she started saying like things that this girl accused her

1249
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 4: adopted parents of doing, and I was like, that sounds

1250
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 4: really familiar. And I looked. I was like, okay, what's

1251
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 4: the girl's last name. I looked at the girls last

1252
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 4: name and I was like, I was like, I know

1253
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 4: this girl or I knew the parents, And sure enough,

1254
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 4: her adopted parents was a family that had been in

1255
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 4: the group with us.

1256
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 5: That is so sad.

1257
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 4: It was it wasn't great and I felt really but

1258
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 4: I felt really bad for her. And I told, you know,

1259
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 4: my manager at the time, I said, hey, I know

1260
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 4: this girl. I was like, and she was like, okay,

1261
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:06,919
Speaker 4: just you can't work with her. And I said, yeah, yeah,

1262
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 4: but uh, maybe believe some of the stuff she says.

1263
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 4: You know, I was like, don't don't like write off

1264
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 4: everything she says, because these people are very like charismatic

1265
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 4: as well, Like they can talk, they can talk you

1266
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 4: into thinking they're great. So but you know, for probably

1267
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 4: like a couple of months, I would see this girl

1268
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 4: all the time. You know. It just kind of like

1269
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 4: really got to me. So I ended up and at

1270
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 4: the same time, my best friend had died, so it

1271
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 4: was kind of like a rough little patch. And then

1272
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 4: I got out of that and went and worked for

1273
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 4: I was working at Starbucks for for a while, and

1274
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 4: I mean, I got I got stories all day about that.

1275
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 4: But uh we I mean, we found a camera in

1276
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 4: a bat in the bathroom one time.

1277
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just gonna need to book a day to intervene.

1278
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 3: But somehow you.

1279
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 1: Got to this job where you're now luckily working with

1280
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: people with mental issues.

1281
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 3: But did that experience you said kind of led you

1282
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 3: to Yes.

1283
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 4: So I was working at Starbucks and I just remember,

1284
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 4: like I thought about that girl all the time, and

1285
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 4: I was like, man, if there's like multiple kids like

1286
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 4: that and multiple people like that who just like, like people

1287
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 4: just need help, Like a lot of times people just

1288
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 4: need some help or somebody that's nice to them. I mean,

1289
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 4: I spent ten years without anybody being nice to me,

1290
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 4: and you know, like the first you know, somebody just

1291
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 4: being kind of goes a long way. So I was like,

1292
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:35,160
Speaker 4: that's what I want to do. So I I got

1293
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 4: back into mental health, started working at the State Psychietric Hospital,

1294
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 4: and you know, I've been doing that for ten years now. Yeah,

1295
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 4: So so that that's kind of how I got into that.

1296
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 4: And then I have a ton of stories about that.

1297
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 2: Oh well, I'm gonna I'm gonna email you separately because

1298
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 2: because I asked some of my questions for you. But

1299
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 2: this is unbelievable. What what a journey, the amount of

1300
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 2: shit that you had to put up with and that

1301
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 2: you've overcome and has turned you into such a self aware,

1302
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 2: empathetic person, Like it's really really impressive, Zach, and in

1303
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 2: the podcast, the amount of research that you did and

1304
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 2: people that you talked to to process your experience, Like,

1305
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 2: I just think it's really really incredible.

1306
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, shout out at your podcast and shout out at

1307
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 1: any of the places that we can find you and

1308
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 1: follow you.

1309
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, and thank you so much. So. My podcast

1310
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 4: is a Boiled Frogs podcast. It's on Spotify, Apple, pretty

1311
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 4: much anywhere you can find a podcast. We're working on

1312
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 4: putting it on YouTube right now. Yeah, you can reach

1313
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 4: out to me at Boiled Frogs Podcast at gmail dot com.

1314
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1315
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 2: Well, I'm really really fucking glad that you reached out

1316
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 2: to us.

1317
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us.

1318
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Zach.

1319
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 2: We didn't have time to get into it in detail,

1320
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 2: but Tom died in two thousand and two after having

1321
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 2: multiple strokes, and unfortunately, justice was never served. His wife

1322
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 2: took the fortune that they made, married someone else and

1323
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 2: wrote off into the sunset, and that is how that ended.

1324
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:05,959
Speaker 3: Very unsatisfying, unfortunately.

1325
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 2: But I'm so glad that Zach is now getting this

1326
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 2: story out there and all of these people who survived

1327
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 2: this are getting to be heard.

1328
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 3: So that's a bonus. And since Megan is not with

1329
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 3: me for.

1330
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 2: This outro today, I'm just gonna leave it there and

1331
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 2: thanks Zach so much for coming on. Y'all can check

1332
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 2: out his podcast Boiled Frogs. We'll see you next week,

1333
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 2: and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1334
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:29,480
Speaker 2: for red flax.

1335
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 3: And never ever trust me bye.

1336
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1337
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:40,600
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1338
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1339
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 3: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1340
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,560
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1341
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1342
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1343
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 3: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1344
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1345
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:00,839
Speaker 1: Hit on Twitter.

1346
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word

1347
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: MHM