WEBVTT - Gavet on Need for Business Leaders to Empathize 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:04.080 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.560 Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. All right, I'm just gonna 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:09.680 put it out there. I have been looking forward to 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:12.639 this next sixty minutes of our podcast. Really excited to 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.800 about our next guest. She's a tech executive, entrepreneur, also 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.200 former CEO Russia's largest e commerce site. She oversaw global 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.560 operations of the Price Line Group. She's an advocate for 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:27.200 empathetic tech, former CEO at Compass. Uh. Settle into a 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.280 comfy chair as we welcome my elgove A. She is 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.560 here to talk about the world of technology. Her book 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:37.199 just out Trampled by Unicorns, Big text empathy problem and 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:40.400 really how to fix it? I added the really, Uh 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:42.559 it's such a relevant topic, and she joins us on 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.760 the phone in New York City. Um My yell, thank you, 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.559 so delighted to have you here with Jason and myself. Welcome, 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.720 my pleasure high Carol, Hi, Jason. So we're trying to 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.080 figure out where to stop start because there's so much 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:59.440 going on in humanity, humanity as it relates to technology. 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.240 Maybe let's start with why did you want to write 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.680 this book? What were you hoping, you know, to get 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.160 out there to the masses. What kind of conversation did 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:11.280 you want to get going. I really wanted to have 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.679 to really big conversation. I want to want to have 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.319 a conversation about where we are right now, because I 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:19.840 felt like a lot of what I was reading in 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.959 the media or in books was extremely one sided. It 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:29.200 was usually UM saying either tech is amazing or tech 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.000 is horrible. And I was reading all of that and saying, no, 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.640 there's some good, there's some bad, and there's some ugly, 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.080 and I'd like us to have a really exhausted view 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.520 on where do we stand, what are the good things 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:42.440 that happened, and what are the things we need to fix, 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.759 and really try to go to the core of why 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.000 we have a deficit of empathy in the technical system. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.600 And then once we uh we align on how we 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.880 got where we are and why UM and and and 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.400 why we are where we are, then I wanted to 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.919 really focus some solutions. I'm a I'm a solution oriented person. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.560 I'm very optimistic in general, and I wanted to have 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.520 a conversation about what we can do and we being 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.839 a very broad we like we the tech executive tech 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.480 employees that the group I belonged to, I mean worked 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.960 in tex for fifteen years. But we as also as users, 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:25.000 we as investors, we as governments and regulators, and I 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.000 thought that there was a role for every one of 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:32.720 us to play in really making tech UM an instrument 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.720 to advance humanity even more than it has been so far. 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.440 So let's talk about the deficit if we can have 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.880 the starting point, Because you know what you point out 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:45.320 in this book, we have all really seen I feel like, 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.200 come to the fore in a troubling way, especially over 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.399 the past few years. Even before I think we entered 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:58.600 into this broader social and societal reckoning around inequality, we 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:00.960 knew there was a problem in tech. How do we 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:06.960 get here? Well, that's a big question. UM. I think 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:13.000 that we got here through a complex set of um 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:18.440 of things related to tech. I think tech is very 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:23.200 insular from a cultural perspective, was very strong tribal myaths. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.880 I talked in my book about many of them. One 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.040 of them is what I call the Steve job syndrome. Uh, 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.320 this idea that to be a genius you somehow have 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.080 to be a jerk. Like the two are kind of 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:39.800 really related. UH. This idea that technology is neutral, UM, 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.840 the myaths of perfect meritocracy, Like if you raised throughout 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.880 the ranks of technology, it's because you're that good at 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.360 your job, and the your n this is because you're 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.200 not that good at your job. And so that really 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:56.080 created an industry which in many aspects is very closed 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:58.800 UM and had a hard time because of a lack 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.320 of diversity, has a hard time to be empathetic to 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.960 the rest of the world. And when you're not empathetic, 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.200 it becomes hard for you to really understand the impact 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.880 that you're having on the world. So that's one very strong, 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:12.920 very strong issue. The second one I've just mentioned it 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:17.040 is the lack of diversity, women represent less and assertive 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.359 management UH and tech roles in big tech UH and 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.599 racial minorities in general less than ten percent of management 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.160 UH and way less than ten percent in text so 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.400 tech tech jobs. And then I think the last one 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:36.719 is UM what I would call a lack of accountability UM. 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:41.599 And it's because we we as as tech people, we 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.800 believe so strongly that we were on our path on 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.720 the past to change the world that if there were 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.400 some bumps on the road, if there were some mistake made, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.960 it didn't really matter because we were working towards the 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.120 greater good. And I think because of that, and then 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.320 also the fact that the regulator didn't always understand what 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.760 it is that we we're doing, and I think the 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:07.360 users got really amazed by all the free services that 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.920 they get that that they got. I think the combination 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.120 of all of that created this environment where UH tech 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.920 companies could pretty much do anything they wanted without having 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.039 to really be accountable. And that's obviously changing now. But 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.200 I think if you combine this cultural installarity, the lack 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.400 of diversity, and the lack of accountability, you end up 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.720 where we are right now. So somebody like we've got 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.360 about a minute or so left and then we've got 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:30.839 to do some news. We're gonna come back and talk 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.640 some more. UM my help. But so somebody like a 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:40.400 Mark Zuckerberg good bad? How do you see him? Um? 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:42.840 I think every person has some good and some bad. 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.640 I think it's clearly a business business genius, and it's 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.080 really strong at building a one in a lifetime company. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.000 I think, to use the wording that one of my 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.680 previous company, dcg UH used, there may be some areas 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:02.640 for improvements around empathy in connection to people. Yeah. My, 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.240 I have to tell you the cover is phenomenal. It's 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.200 so striking and uh, really attention grabbing. So congratulations on 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:14.120 that as well. So let's talk solutions. Uh, what's the 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.919 first step here? What's the easy, low hanging fruit to 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.919 try and be more empathetic when it comes to big tech? So, 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.480 given your audience, I want to start by saying, I'm 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.720 a capitalist at hard I'm not advocating for empathy just 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.920 because it's all going to make us feel good. I'm 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.720 advocating for empathy because I believe it's good for business. 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.520 And in my book I talk about a research or 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:39.520 study that was done that demonstrated that empathetic company conscious 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:44.000 companies outperformed the SMP five index by a factor of ten. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.640 So it is actually really good for business. Uh. Now, 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.240 what can't be done? A lot of things can be done. 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.239 It can be done by the leaders inside the company. 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.840 Like at Microsoft. I think it's been an unbelievable an 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.880 unbelievable model role model for what can't be done in 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:06.120 terms of putting empathy and basically people caring for people 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.159 in everything you do. Starting with the mission, the vision, 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.240 the values, of the company, and then continuing with things 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.760 like how do you recruit more empathetic people, how do 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.760 you make sure that you give them a voice, how 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.120 to use change your processes, your decision processes so that 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.760 the impact that you're having not just on your immediate 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.160 customers but also on the world around you are actually 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.640 taken into account. So there's a ton of things that 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.680 can be done. No silver Bulleitz, but like a pretty 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:38.840 long list. Um. And then it goes outside the leadership 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.480 team or the employees. He goes to the boards and 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.240 the investors, the public market, the net back in the 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.440 New York stock stock extras have a huge impact on 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:49.840 the way companies are being are being run. And then 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.239 it goes all the way to the regulator, the media, 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:54.960 the consumer. And so my book just basically go chapter 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:57.840 chapter by chapters for every one of these takeholders and 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.600 just say, hey, here is ten twenty fifty things that 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.760 you could potentially try to do. Can every tech company 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:11.520 be run this way, have empathy and be successful? That 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.680 is an extremely smart question. I believe that they all 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.280 should do it that way. I think that for some 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.760 of them it's going to be a massive challenge because 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.400 of the culture they have inside and what it would 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.680 mean in terms of changing their business model and the 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.640 way they make money. I do believe though, and again 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.520 I I I a quoted that that study. I do 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.520 believe that in the long term, if you want to 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.880 build a profitable, sustainable business that is going to be 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.319 still around not five years from non o ten years 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.400 from now, but like a hundred years from now, it's 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.199 just you have to It would be completely insane as 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.200 a business leader to not make sure that you care 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.640 about the impact that you have on on the world. 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:52.240 But do you know what I'm saying right Like? You 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.600 just do wonder, Like I I think Jason and I 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:57.560 would you know, handily agree with you that this is 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.000 the way to do things. And I think younger employed 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.640 ease care about this a lot more. But I just 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.760 do wonder. I think it's going to be really hard. Look, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.160 I mean the very honest sensory. I think among big 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.839 tech there as there are some companies for which is 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.720 going to be painful but possible. I think there are 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.200 some companies for which is going to be incredibly difficult, 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.520 and they may not just have the resistance to pain 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:22.679 and the will to make that happen, which by the way, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.360 means that they may actually be forced in one way 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:29.280 or another again, either by the users, the advertisers, which 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.640 also are very powerful, or at the end of the day, 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.720 the regulators. And I advocated in my book that I'd 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.720 much rather for the industry to self regulate. I don't. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.400 I live in in Russia and in China. I know 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:43.920 first time what it is to have an overbearing government. 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.839 I definitely do not want that. But at the same time, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.320 staff regulation has never worked in any industry, and so 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.920 the challenge these days is really about finding the right balance. 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.680 And I think we'll go faster to that finding that 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:00.800 right balance if big tech actually texts accountability and really 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.520 really start thinking about how to put humanity front and center. Well, 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.360 and my l and you know better than we do 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.640 that tech, especially here certainly over the last ten twenty years, 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.960 has really set the tone for so many types of companies, 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.360 even beyond the text fear. I mean, we all look 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:21.319 to Silicon Valley and its ideals in many ways for inspiration. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.400 Totally sorry, I mean there's been a transformative driver of 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.920 the world in general. So and again to start to 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:31.600 go back to what I was saying at the beginning 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.040 for good, for bet and ugly, I think we shouldn't 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.960 completely discount the fact that they have actually really really 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.400 helped millions, ignal hundreds of millions of people in many 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.079 aspects of their life. So that's very positive. What what 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.280 I want is to make sure that it's continues that 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.719 way and all the negative impact that is being surfaced 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:56.800 more and more is actually taken I mean taken under control. Again. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.280 Can I just ask you real quickly and something, Jason, 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.680 I've talked a lot about TikTok I just got about 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.120 a minute or so left. I mean, the pushback against 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.800 the US is that a good thing? Does that make sense? 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.880 Does should we? Should the US be taking a stand 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:15.280 on companies like this? So my general view is that 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.760 the rule of government is to give um, to give guidelines, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.000 and not so much to be involving a very specific deals. 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.160 I think TikTok is is just at the beginning that 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.320 death hasn't really settled, so it's hard to have a 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.959 definitive view on the final impact. I would I would 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.080 be very cautious, as I say, in having government going 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.560 to give into business into business deals, because governments at 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:40.360 least in the West don't really have a good track 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.360 record kind of thing, and it's something we're critical about 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:48.520 other governments where you're so involved. Yeah, exactly as you 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.080 say that your experience in China and Russia has taught 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.000 you that better than anything. Alright, my elegravate, Thank you 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.200 so much. Congratulations. It is your launch day for this book, 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.199 Trampled by Unicorns, big text empathy problem and how to 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.640 fix it. I think it's so telling that a book 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:07.120 is out here in that has the word empathy in it. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:11.240 I mean, like, not productivity, not managing your time better, 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.280 not success, but empathy. I think that's very notable. Yeah, 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.679 I have I have not heard that right in all 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.320 the discussions that we have. It's a very different way 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.640 of thinking about it, but an important when we hear 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.439 about culture a lot, but empathy is a whole different level. 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.760 And you're right, Jason, very very important.