Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and
Speaker 1: Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. All right, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: put it out there. I have been looking forward to
Speaker 1: this next sixty minutes of our podcast. Really excited to
Speaker 1: about our next guest. She's a tech executive, entrepreneur, also
Speaker 1: former CEO Russia's largest e commerce site. She oversaw global
Speaker 1: operations of the Price Line Group. She's an advocate for
Speaker 1: empathetic tech, former CEO at Compass. Uh. Settle into a
Speaker 1: comfy chair as we welcome my elgove A. She is
Speaker 1: here to talk about the world of technology. Her book
Speaker 1: just out Trampled by Unicorns, Big text empathy problem and
Speaker 1: really how to fix it? I added the really, Uh
Speaker 1: it's such a relevant topic, and she joins us on
Speaker 1: the phone in New York City. Um My yell, thank you,
Speaker 1: so delighted to have you here with Jason and myself. Welcome,
Speaker 1: my pleasure high Carol, Hi, Jason. So we're trying to
Speaker 1: figure out where to stop start because there's so much
Speaker 1: going on in humanity, humanity as it relates to technology.
Speaker 1: Maybe let's start with why did you want to write
Speaker 1: this book? What were you hoping, you know, to get
Speaker 1: out there to the masses. What kind of conversation did
Speaker 1: you want to get going. I really wanted to have
Speaker 1: to really big conversation. I want to want to have
Speaker 1: a conversation about where we are right now, because I
Speaker 1: felt like a lot of what I was reading in
Speaker 1: the media or in books was extremely one sided. It
Speaker 1: was usually UM saying either tech is amazing or tech
Speaker 1: is horrible. And I was reading all of that and saying, no,
Speaker 1: there's some good, there's some bad, and there's some ugly,
Speaker 1: and I'd like us to have a really exhausted view
Speaker 1: on where do we stand, what are the good things
Speaker 1: that happened, and what are the things we need to fix,
Speaker 1: and really try to go to the core of why
Speaker 1: we have a deficit of empathy in the technical system.
Speaker 1: And then once we uh we align on how we
Speaker 1: got where we are and why UM and and and
Speaker 1: why we are where we are, then I wanted to
Speaker 1: really focus some solutions. I'm a I'm a solution oriented person.
Speaker 1: I'm very optimistic in general, and I wanted to have
Speaker 1: a conversation about what we can do and we being
Speaker 1: a very broad we like we the tech executive tech
Speaker 1: employees that the group I belonged to, I mean worked
Speaker 1: in tex for fifteen years. But we as also as users,
Speaker 1: we as investors, we as governments and regulators, and I
Speaker 1: thought that there was a role for every one of
Speaker 1: us to play in really making tech UM an instrument
Speaker 1: to advance humanity even more than it has been so far.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the deficit if we can have
Speaker 1: the starting point, Because you know what you point out
Speaker 1: in this book, we have all really seen I feel like,
Speaker 1: come to the fore in a troubling way, especially over
Speaker 1: the past few years. Even before I think we entered
Speaker 1: into this broader social and societal reckoning around inequality, we
Speaker 1: knew there was a problem in tech. How do we
Speaker 1: get here? Well, that's a big question. UM. I think
Speaker 1: that we got here through a complex set of um
Speaker 1: of things related to tech. I think tech is very
Speaker 1: insular from a cultural perspective, was very strong tribal myaths.
Speaker 1: I talked in my book about many of them. One
Speaker 1: of them is what I call the Steve job syndrome. Uh,
Speaker 1: this idea that to be a genius you somehow have
Speaker 1: to be a jerk. Like the two are kind of
Speaker 1: really related. UH. This idea that technology is neutral, UM,
Speaker 1: the myaths of perfect meritocracy, Like if you raised throughout
Speaker 1: the ranks of technology, it's because you're that good at
Speaker 1: your job, and the your n this is because you're
Speaker 1: not that good at your job. And so that really
Speaker 1: created an industry which in many aspects is very closed
Speaker 1: UM and had a hard time because of a lack
Speaker 1: of diversity, has a hard time to be empathetic to
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. And when you're not empathetic,
Speaker 1: it becomes hard for you to really understand the impact
Speaker 1: that you're having on the world. So that's one very strong,
Speaker 1: very strong issue. The second one I've just mentioned it
Speaker 1: is the lack of diversity, women represent less and assertive
Speaker 1: management UH and tech roles in big tech UH and
Speaker 1: racial minorities in general less than ten percent of management
Speaker 1: UH and way less than ten percent in text so
Speaker 1: tech tech jobs. And then I think the last one
Speaker 1: is UM what I would call a lack of accountability UM.
Speaker 1: And it's because we we as as tech people, we
Speaker 1: believe so strongly that we were on our path on
Speaker 1: the past to change the world that if there were
Speaker 1: some bumps on the road, if there were some mistake made,
Speaker 1: it didn't really matter because we were working towards the
Speaker 1: greater good. And I think because of that, and then
Speaker 1: also the fact that the regulator didn't always understand what
Speaker 1: it is that we we're doing, and I think the
Speaker 1: users got really amazed by all the free services that
Speaker 1: they get that that they got. I think the combination
Speaker 1: of all of that created this environment where UH tech
Speaker 1: companies could pretty much do anything they wanted without having
Speaker 1: to really be accountable. And that's obviously changing now. But
Speaker 1: I think if you combine this cultural installarity, the lack
Speaker 1: of diversity, and the lack of accountability, you end up
Speaker 1: where we are right now. So somebody like we've got
Speaker 1: about a minute or so left and then we've got
Speaker 1: to do some news. We're gonna come back and talk
Speaker 1: some more. UM my help. But so somebody like a
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg good bad? How do you see him? Um?
Speaker 1: I think every person has some good and some bad.
Speaker 1: I think it's clearly a business business genius, and it's
Speaker 1: really strong at building a one in a lifetime company.
Speaker 1: I think, to use the wording that one of my
Speaker 1: previous company, dcg UH used, there may be some areas
Speaker 1: for improvements around empathy in connection to people. Yeah. My,
Speaker 1: I have to tell you the cover is phenomenal. It's
Speaker 1: so striking and uh, really attention grabbing. So congratulations on
Speaker 1: that as well. So let's talk solutions. Uh, what's the
Speaker 1: first step here? What's the easy, low hanging fruit to
Speaker 1: try and be more empathetic when it comes to big tech? So,
Speaker 1: given your audience, I want to start by saying, I'm
Speaker 1: a capitalist at hard I'm not advocating for empathy just
Speaker 1: because it's all going to make us feel good. I'm
Speaker 1: advocating for empathy because I believe it's good for business.
Speaker 1: And in my book I talk about a research or
Speaker 1: study that was done that demonstrated that empathetic company conscious
Speaker 1: companies outperformed the SMP five index by a factor of ten.
Speaker 1: So it is actually really good for business. Uh. Now,
Speaker 1: what can't be done? A lot of things can be done.
Speaker 1: It can be done by the leaders inside the company.
Speaker 1: Like at Microsoft. I think it's been an unbelievable an
Speaker 1: unbelievable model role model for what can't be done in
Speaker 1: terms of putting empathy and basically people caring for people
Speaker 1: in everything you do. Starting with the mission, the vision,
Speaker 1: the values, of the company, and then continuing with things
Speaker 1: like how do you recruit more empathetic people, how do
Speaker 1: you make sure that you give them a voice, how
Speaker 1: to use change your processes, your decision processes so that
Speaker 1: the impact that you're having not just on your immediate
Speaker 1: customers but also on the world around you are actually
Speaker 1: taken into account. So there's a ton of things that
Speaker 1: can be done. No silver Bulleitz, but like a pretty
Speaker 1: long list. Um. And then it goes outside the leadership
Speaker 1: team or the employees. He goes to the boards and
Speaker 1: the investors, the public market, the net back in the
Speaker 1: New York stock stock extras have a huge impact on
Speaker 1: the way companies are being are being run. And then
Speaker 1: it goes all the way to the regulator, the media,
Speaker 1: the consumer. And so my book just basically go chapter
Speaker 1: chapter by chapters for every one of these takeholders and
Speaker 1: just say, hey, here is ten twenty fifty things that
Speaker 1: you could potentially try to do. Can every tech company
Speaker 1: be run this way, have empathy and be successful? That
Speaker 1: is an extremely smart question. I believe that they all
Speaker 1: should do it that way. I think that for some
Speaker 1: of them it's going to be a massive challenge because
Speaker 1: of the culture they have inside and what it would
Speaker 1: mean in terms of changing their business model and the
Speaker 1: way they make money. I do believe though, and again
Speaker 1: I I I a quoted that that study. I do
Speaker 1: believe that in the long term, if you want to
Speaker 1: build a profitable, sustainable business that is going to be
Speaker 1: still around not five years from non o ten years
Speaker 1: from now, but like a hundred years from now, it's
Speaker 1: just you have to It would be completely insane as
Speaker 1: a business leader to not make sure that you care
Speaker 1: about the impact that you have on on the world.
Speaker 1: But do you know what I'm saying right Like? You
Speaker 1: just do wonder, Like I I think Jason and I
Speaker 1: would you know, handily agree with you that this is
Speaker 1: the way to do things. And I think younger employed
Speaker 1: ease care about this a lot more. But I just
Speaker 1: do wonder. I think it's going to be really hard. Look,
Speaker 1: I mean the very honest sensory. I think among big
Speaker 1: tech there as there are some companies for which is
Speaker 1: going to be painful but possible. I think there are
Speaker 1: some companies for which is going to be incredibly difficult,
Speaker 1: and they may not just have the resistance to pain
Speaker 1: and the will to make that happen, which by the way,
Speaker 1: means that they may actually be forced in one way
Speaker 1: or another again, either by the users, the advertisers, which
Speaker 1: also are very powerful, or at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: the regulators. And I advocated in my book that I'd
Speaker 1: much rather for the industry to self regulate. I don't.
Speaker 1: I live in in Russia and in China. I know
Speaker 1: first time what it is to have an overbearing government.
Speaker 1: I definitely do not want that. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: staff regulation has never worked in any industry, and so
Speaker 1: the challenge these days is really about finding the right balance.
Speaker 1: And I think we'll go faster to that finding that
Speaker 1: right balance if big tech actually texts accountability and really
Speaker 1: really start thinking about how to put humanity front and center. Well,
Speaker 1: and my l and you know better than we do
Speaker 1: that tech, especially here certainly over the last ten twenty years,
Speaker 1: has really set the tone for so many types of companies,
Speaker 1: even beyond the text fear. I mean, we all look
Speaker 1: to Silicon Valley and its ideals in many ways for inspiration.
Speaker 1: Totally sorry, I mean there's been a transformative driver of
Speaker 1: the world in general. So and again to start to
Speaker 1: go back to what I was saying at the beginning
Speaker 1: for good, for bet and ugly, I think we shouldn't
Speaker 1: completely discount the fact that they have actually really really
Speaker 1: helped millions, ignal hundreds of millions of people in many
Speaker 1: aspects of their life. So that's very positive. What what
Speaker 1: I want is to make sure that it's continues that
Speaker 1: way and all the negative impact that is being surfaced
Speaker 1: more and more is actually taken I mean taken under control. Again.
Speaker 1: Can I just ask you real quickly and something, Jason,
Speaker 1: I've talked a lot about TikTok I just got about
Speaker 1: a minute or so left. I mean, the pushback against
Speaker 1: the US is that a good thing? Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Does should we? Should the US be taking a stand
Speaker 1: on companies like this? So my general view is that
Speaker 1: the rule of government is to give um, to give guidelines,
Speaker 1: and not so much to be involving a very specific deals.
Speaker 1: I think TikTok is is just at the beginning that
Speaker 1: death hasn't really settled, so it's hard to have a
Speaker 1: definitive view on the final impact. I would I would
Speaker 1: be very cautious, as I say, in having government going
Speaker 1: to give into business into business deals, because governments at
Speaker 1: least in the West don't really have a good track
Speaker 1: record kind of thing, and it's something we're critical about
Speaker 1: other governments where you're so involved. Yeah, exactly as you
Speaker 1: say that your experience in China and Russia has taught
Speaker 1: you that better than anything. Alright, my elegravate, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Congratulations. It is your launch day for this book,
Speaker 1: Trampled by Unicorns, big text empathy problem and how to
Speaker 1: fix it. I think it's so telling that a book
Speaker 1: is out here in that has the word empathy in it.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, not productivity, not managing your time better,
Speaker 1: not success, but empathy. I think that's very notable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have I have not heard that right in all
Speaker 1: the discussions that we have. It's a very different way
Speaker 1: of thinking about it, but an important when we hear
Speaker 1: about culture a lot, but empathy is a whole different level.
Speaker 1: And you're right, Jason, very very important.