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Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's birthday season. Here at the Happiness Lab, we

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Speaker 1: are celebrating our fifth year anniversary, and it's prompted us

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Speaker 1: to go back into the archive to pull out five

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Speaker 1: of my most memorable and meaningful episodes from the hundreds

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Speaker 1: that we've made. My producer Ryan has number three on

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Speaker 1: the list, which.

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Speaker 2: Is so to show from season three called why Nostalgia

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Speaker 2: Ain't So Rosie and I think I know why you

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Speaker 2: have to grab this one out, but why don't you.

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Speaker 3: Tell the listeners?

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Speaker 1: Is it because of our main guest who we start

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Speaker 1: with my heart throb? Yes, so this is an episode

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Speaker 1: where I got to interview the actor Roblow, who definitely

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Speaker 1: was one of my eighties heart throbs. I believe you

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Speaker 1: made fun of me for a smile on my face

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Speaker 1: in the Zoom interview. Yes, I looked a little cheesy.

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Speaker 2: And this was the first big season we made during

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Speaker 2: the COVID lockdown, So I remember sitting with you on

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Speaker 2: Zoom and with Rob Low teld so many funny stories

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Speaker 2: and did all the accents we couldn't fit them all name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and aside from all as Hollywood anecdotes,

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Speaker 1: Rob also really helped us understand the psychology of nostalgia,

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Speaker 1: both the parts of nostalgia that we get right that

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Speaker 1: help us in the parts of nostalgia that lead us astray.

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Speaker 2: Because Ro's very nostalgic. I mean, there's also things in

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Speaker 2: his youth he remembers fondly, but as I remember, he's

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Speaker 2: also careful not to get caught up in them. What

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Speaker 2: are the things you get nostalgia about?

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Speaker 1: Well, Rob in eighties movies obviously, you know, really cheesy

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Speaker 1: music from the nineties. I mean, there's so many things

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Speaker 1: I get nostalgic about. And I think that's the beauty

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Speaker 1: of our understanding of the nostalgia, right, is that nostalgic

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Speaker 1: can kind of bring us joy. But as we'll see

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Speaker 1: in this episode, it's something that we don't want to

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Speaker 1: get caught up in. We want to be nostalgic without

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Speaker 1: falling prey to the pitfalls of nostalgia. And that is

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Speaker 1: what I think you'll learn today. So here is why

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Speaker 1: nostalgia ain't so rosy. When you hear the word nostalgia,

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Speaker 1: where do your thoughts go?

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Speaker 2: Oh boy?

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Speaker 4: You know, it gets triggered, you know, usually by music

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Speaker 4: or smell like hot air and pines. That combination and

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Speaker 4: then if you throw in a little bit of salt

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Speaker 4: water reminds me of the very first time I ever

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Speaker 4: saw California in nineteen seventy six, when I first set

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Speaker 4: foot out here and started my journey to where I

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Speaker 4: am today. So that really gets me nostalgia.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to one of the most surreal conversations of

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Speaker 1: my life. I'm talking about nostalgia with the actor who

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Speaker 1: personifies some of my fondest eighties memories, Rob Low. If

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Speaker 1: you're a child of the eighties like me, Rob is

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Speaker 1: an icon. He was part of pretty much everything I'm

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Speaker 1: embarrassed to love about that decade. He was in ABC

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Speaker 1: after school specials. He started in classic eighties movies like

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Speaker 1: See Almost Fire and The Outsiders. He was a member

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Speaker 1: of the infamous Brat Pack. He was on the cover

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Speaker 1: of Teen Beat magazine week after week. He dated all

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Speaker 1: my teen girl idols, from Demi Moore to Winona Ryder.

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Speaker 1: He played the saxophone, or at least I thought he did.

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Speaker 1: Do you actually play the sax or was that just

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Speaker 1: for the movie.

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Speaker 4: Let me tell you something, I am a longtime actor.

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Speaker 4: I can fake do almost anything. I can fake shoot

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Speaker 4: a gun, I can fake repel. I can fake play

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Speaker 4: the saxophone like no other and I have fooled many

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Speaker 4: a person with it.

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Speaker 1: And let's not even get started on his hair.

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Speaker 4: I used more hair moose than any human being should

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Speaker 4: ever use.

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Speaker 1: All this goes to say that even though I was

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Speaker 1: trying to be my smoothest professional podcast Yelle professor self,

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Speaker 1: when I chatted with Rob, I was finding it really

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Speaker 1: hard to hold it together.

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Speaker 4: When the Carpenters come on the radio and you're like

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Speaker 4: immediately next to your grandpa co driving his station wagon

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Speaker 4: and you're nine or eleven years old, It's it's awesome,

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Speaker 4: it's magic. You're in a time machine. You're literally in

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Speaker 4: a time machine.

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Speaker 1: But I love the time machine point because you know,

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Speaker 1: in some sense, you've created that time machine for other people,

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Speaker 1: you know, even for me, Like just talking with you

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Speaker 1: on the zoom call, I hear your voice, and I

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Speaker 1: hear certain ways that you express things in certain parts

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Speaker 1: of your smile, and I'm taking back to you know,

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Speaker 1: movies I watched in grade school and with friends and

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Speaker 1: fun times in college, and you know, what does it

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Speaker 1: feel like to be creating the time machine for other people?

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Speaker 4: That is amazing? That makes me feel so good. It

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Speaker 4: really does because I can put the shoe on the

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Speaker 4: other foot so easily, you know, when I meet my

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Speaker 4: heroes or whatever and go, hey, man, what that song

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Speaker 4: you wrote? I played it at my wedding to me

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Speaker 4: hearing feedback like that. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: it's the real reason I think that I became an

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Speaker 4: actor and got into this business was to move people

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Speaker 4: and create memories for them, because memories are all you got.

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Speaker 4: That's all you got.

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Speaker 1: Rob is right here. When we look back at our lives,

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Speaker 1: our memories are all we've got, and reliving all those

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Speaker 1: nostalgic moments often feels really fun. But nostalgia can also

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Speaker 1: cause pain. Research shows that if we're not careful, our

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Speaker 1: happiest memories have a way of messing with our future

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Speaker 1: well being, making us downplay bad experiences or totally misremember

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Speaker 1: the past, which can set us up for some potentially

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Speaker 1: damaging choices. So how can we experience the benefits of

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Speaker 1: nostalgia in a way that doesn't hurt our happiness? How

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Speaker 1: can we relive our fond past memories in a way

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Speaker 1: that doesn't hurt our future selves. Our minds are constantly

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Speaker 1: telling us what to do to be happy. But what

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Speaker 1: if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are

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Speaker 1: lying to us, leading us away from what will really

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Speaker 1: make us happy. The good news is that understanding the

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Speaker 1: science of the mind can point us all back in

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Speaker 1: the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lap with

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Speaker 1: doctor Larry Santos So full disclosure. I am a nostalgia junkie.

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Speaker 1: When I have a tough day at work, I rewatch

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Speaker 1: old movies or play the classic songs that I loved

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Speaker 1: in high school. So you can imagine my total glee

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Speaker 1: when I learned that I share a fondness for all

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Speaker 1: things old school with my eighties heart throb Rob Low.

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Speaker 4: I love nostalgia. I love that I'm on this podcast

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Speaker 4: right now because I'm very big on it.

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Speaker 1: The science shows that Rob and I are not alone here.

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Speaker 1: Nostalgia is an incredibly common experience. In fact, one study

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Speaker 1: found that around eighty percent of participants reported feeling nostalgic

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Speaker 1: at least once a week.

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Speaker 4: If you were to look over my shoulder at night

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Speaker 4: when I'm going down my YouTube wormhole, it's all nostalgia.

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Speaker 4: It's all history, nostalgia related behind the scenes of seventies music,

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Speaker 4: all of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Like me, Rob loves thinking back to the songs of

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Speaker 1: his youth and the concerts he enjoyed when he was young.

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Speaker 1: For him, a big one was seeing his idol Bruce

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Speaker 1: Springsteen live for the first time.

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Speaker 4: One of the things I remember that crazy time was

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Speaker 4: going to see him at Giants Stadium and it's the

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Speaker 4: Born in the USA tour.

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Speaker 1: Talk about nostalgia, but Rob's concert memories are also a

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Speaker 1: bit different than many of ours.

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Speaker 4: The stadium's full, it's just before showtime, and I walk

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Speaker 4: in and people start noticing and saying hello and wunning

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Speaker 4: an autograph, and the next thing I know, the entire

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Speaker 4: stadium is chanting my name. I get really like embarrassed.

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Speaker 4: But the good news is that led the Springsteen people

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Speaker 4: to get me the hell out of the stadium and backstage,

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Speaker 4: and that's how I finally met Bruce.

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Speaker 1: The same is true for his memories of eighties television.

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Speaker 1: Rob also loves to get nostalgic about bad old school TV.

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Speaker 1: I told him stories of how I used to run

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Speaker 1: off the school bus to catch my favorite afternoon shows.

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Speaker 1: But Rob's childhood TV watching stories are a bit more

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Speaker 1: over the top than mine, because Rob wasn't just watching

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Speaker 1: those ABC afternoon specials, he was also starring in them.

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Speaker 4: And I use that as an excuse to go up

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Speaker 4: to the cutest girl in the school and kind of

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Speaker 4: try to chat her up. And her name was Jennifer,

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Speaker 4: and one thing led to another, and she invited me

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Speaker 4: to come to her house and watch the after school special.

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Speaker 4: And she was like, you know, my dad's in acting,

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Speaker 4: so you know that'll be great. So I roll up

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Speaker 4: to her house. It's a mansion in Beverly Hills. First

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Speaker 4: time I've ever seen a mansion. And I opened the

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Speaker 4: door and it's Carrie Grant in a bathrobe. And so

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Speaker 4: we watched my little stupid after school special with Kerry Grant,

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Speaker 4: and afterwards he was like, you remind me son of

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Speaker 4: a young Warring Batty, which I took as a huge compliment.

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Speaker 1: As I heard more and more about Rob's incredible stories,

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Speaker 1: I realized that he might not be the best starting

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Speaker 1: point for understanding the average persons connection between nostalgia and happiness.

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Speaker 4: I love the eighties, but I had obviously a very

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Speaker 4: very very unique seat at the eighties.

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Speaker 1: So to get a more scientific sense of why we

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Speaker 1: love thinking about the past, I decided to turn to

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Speaker 1: someone else I thought could help. My friend and colleague,

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Speaker 1: Felipe Diregard.

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Speaker 5: I'm an addict to nostalgia. Yes, I love it. I

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Speaker 5: relished that feeling.

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Speaker 1: Felipe is an academic triple threat. He's a professor of psychology,

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Speaker 1: cognitive neuroscience and philosophy at Duke University.

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Speaker 5: Full disclosure. There are times in which I feel that

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Speaker 5: I was born in the wrong time. I love the

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Speaker 5: nineteen twenties. I love hats. I love like dressing up nicely,

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Speaker 5: you know, like chatting with Virginia Wall. I have a

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Speaker 5: very nostalgia physic about that.

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Speaker 1: But Felipe isn't just a fan of nostalgia. He's also

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Speaker 1: an academic expert on the topic.

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Speaker 5: The term nostalgia was coined in the sixteen hundreds, and

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Speaker 5: he was originally considered a neurological commission, which is very

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Speaker 5: interesting because neurology and psychiatry were well There was no

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Speaker 5: such a thing as psychiatric back then. But it was

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Speaker 5: very clearly considered a condition of the body, and it

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Speaker 5: was thought to mainly affect army personnel. It was described

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Speaker 5: in Germany and it was mostly thought off to affect

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Speaker 5: Swiss soldiers, and then there were all sorts of very

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Speaker 5: interesting origin stories as to why people felt nostalgia. One

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Speaker 5: of them had to do with ear drum damage due

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Speaker 5: to the incessant clanging of the cow bells in Switzerland.

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Speaker 5: There were stories about atmospheric pressure and so on and

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Speaker 5: so forth, but it was always considered a malady. It

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Speaker 5: was considered an illness of the body, mainly a neurological illness,

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Speaker 5: and also that it was associated with depression, anxiety, lack

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Speaker 5: of appititet son. It wasn't until much later where people

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Speaker 5: started to think that there might be something positive about nostalgia.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing that it took hundreds of years

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Speaker 1: for scholars to realize that nostalgia actually felt good. These days,

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Speaker 1: scientists are learning that the effects of this bitter sweet

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Speaker 1: emotion are often more sweet than better. In fact, psychologists

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Speaker 1: have observed that thinking wistfully about the past can make

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Speaker 1: us feel really good.

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Speaker 5: We use memories just as we use imagination to make

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Speaker 5: us feel better now. So nostalgia is a very good

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Speaker 5: way of going on a little mental vacation without leaving

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Speaker 5: your home. And when you cannot leave your home, that's

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Speaker 5: the best way, and you can do it right.

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Speaker 1: One of the times that our brains especially seek out

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Speaker 1: old memories is when we're feeling more alone than usual.

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Speaker 5: There's been a lot of research on making people feel

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Speaker 5: kind of lonely, isolated, and stuff like that that tends

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Speaker 5: to elicit a little bit more feelings of nostalgia. So

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Speaker 5: it looks as though it is when you're in a

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Speaker 5: negative situation that you're more likely to generate this sense

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Speaker 5: of nostalgia.

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Speaker 1: If you've listened to other episodes of the Happiness Lab,

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Speaker 1: you probably know that feeling socially connected is an important

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Speaker 1: condition for happiness. But it's not just the right now

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Speaker 1: connection we get from seeing friends in the present that

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Speaker 1: makes us happy. Research shows we also get a happiness

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Speaker 1: boost from merely thinking about past social times, especially if

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Speaker 1: we're feeling lonely in the present. As one scientific paper

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Speaker 1: nicely put it, during nostalgic reverie, the mind is peopled.

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Speaker 1: But science has found another way that nostalgia can boost

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Speaker 1: our well being. Re Experiencing the paths can help us

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Speaker 1: feel better about how things went back in the day,

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Speaker 1: which is important because, let's face it, our past selves

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Speaker 1: weren't always our best selves past us is didn't always

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Speaker 1: make those smartest choices, something my eighties idol Rob Low

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Speaker 1: knows all too well.

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Speaker 4: Look, there are people who live through the eighties, and

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Speaker 4: there are people who live through the eighties.

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Speaker 1: If you read Rob's memoir stories I only tell my friends,

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Speaker 1: you know that Rob had some pretty rough times early

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Speaker 1: in his career, and that's one of the reasons he

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Speaker 1: personally loves nostalgia so much. When we look back at

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Speaker 1: some of the bad choices of our youth, we often

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Speaker 1: do so with a bit more clarity than we had

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Speaker 1: when we were living through those events.

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Speaker 4: And I don't think nostalgia is nostalgia without that underpinning,

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Speaker 4: you know, and also, looking back on anything, you have

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty hindsight. So if you're being nostalgic and you're

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Speaker 4: looking back, implicit in that is what would I have

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Speaker 4: done differently?

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Speaker 1: This redemptive lens through which we naturally view the past

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Speaker 1: means that we remember even the worst events with a

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Speaker 1: positive spin. We recall the good parts and neglect the

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Speaker 1: not so good or even embarrassing parts.

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Speaker 4: It's like talking about the greatest beer pong game you

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Speaker 4: ever played. You're like, yeah, it's great. Well did you vomit? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I vomited, but it was still great.

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Speaker 1: Or like, when we get back from the break, we'll

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Speaker 1: look in more detail at why we tend to distort

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Speaker 1: the past so badly, or, to paraphrase Rob, how it

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Speaker 1: is that our brains get all the great beer pong

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Speaker 1: of the past without any of the vomit. When the

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Speaker 1: Happiness Lab returns, we'll see that our rosy, redemptive view

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Speaker 1: of the past stems from an unfortunate design feature of

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Speaker 1: our minds, one that comes with a huge happiness cost

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Speaker 1: that we don't often recognize. We'll learn that what seems

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Speaker 1: like a harmless bit of rosy nostalgia can sometimes cause

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Speaker 1: us to make bad decisions in the present. The Happiness

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Speaker 1: Lab will be back in a moment.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's nothing like being on a bike and

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Speaker 3: suffering with people, rejoicing with people you know. To me,

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Speaker 3: it's real shared experience.

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Speaker 1: This is Lee Thompson, a professor at the Kellogg School

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Speaker 1: of Management at Northwestern University. She's an expert on the

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Speaker 1: ways that our memories can play tricks on us. But

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Speaker 1: Lee is also a world champion cyclist. She took up

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Speaker 1: the sport late in life encouraged by a very devoted teacher,

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Speaker 1: her fiance Bob.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was a cyclist, and you know, my

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Speaker 3: response was like any normal person's response who doesn't run bike,

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Speaker 3: which is, well, anybody can ride a bike, Like what's

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Speaker 3: the big deal. But then he said, well, do you

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Speaker 3: know what it's like to go twenty five miles an

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Speaker 3: hour on a bike? And can you do that for

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Speaker 3: an hour? And it's like, okay, Well, is this a

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Speaker 3: challenge or what?

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Speaker 1: And Lee was up for that challenge. After she and

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Speaker 1: Bob got married, they headed not for a beach vacation honeymoon,

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Speaker 1: but for the San Juan Islands and day long, grueling

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Speaker 1: bike rides.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that my husband's secret plan was to

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Speaker 3: get me to ride up Mount Constitution. If I would

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Speaker 3: have read anything about that, I think I would have

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Speaker 3: freaked myself out, said are you kidding me? There's no

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Speaker 3: way we're doing this. But it was only when we

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Speaker 3: were like a quarter of the way up that he

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Speaker 3: said this is going to be a pretty serious climb.

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Speaker 3: But by that time I was already kind of one

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Speaker 3: quarter into it.

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Speaker 1: A painful bike ride that's so steep you don't even

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Speaker 1: think you can finish it. That doesn't sound like most

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Speaker 1: people's idea of a good honeymoon, but Lee gets nostalgic

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Speaker 1: whenever she thinks about it.

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Speaker 3: There's one time in my life where I could go

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Speaker 3: back to. It would probably be that because it was

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Speaker 3: just epic, you know, epic fun. But I know enough

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Speaker 3: as a psychologist in my own research to know that

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Speaker 3: on any given day, there was a sunburn, there wasn't

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Speaker 3: enough food, somebody ran out of water, so not every

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Speaker 3: moment was gloriously.

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Speaker 1: Recognizes that our minds lie to us, and one of

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Speaker 1: our mind's biggest misconceptions is that our recollections of the

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Speaker 1: past are totally accurate.

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Speaker 3: Our memories are pretty fallible. That seems like a judgy word,

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Speaker 3: but our memories are not necessarily like a video recorder.

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Speaker 1: Human memory doesn't have the hard drive space to videotape

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Speaker 1: life in its entirety, so our brains play fast and

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Speaker 1: loose with the footage. The first thing we do is

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Speaker 1: delete most of the boring parts. The half hour of

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Speaker 1: your vacation that you spent in traffic, or the part

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Speaker 1: where you had to wait for dinner to sh show up,

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Speaker 1: or the ten minutes you spent going through airport security,

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Speaker 1: all those filler moments get dropped. But dropping those boring

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Speaker 1: bits means that our memories are skewed in a very

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Speaker 1: systematic way. The path seems to have a higher ratio

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Speaker 1: of interesting moments to boring stuff than real life does.

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Speaker 1: But that's not the only way our minds are biased.

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Speaker 1: Our brains also don't like to recall the bad stuff,

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Speaker 1: the sunburns and the rainy beach days and lost luggage,

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Speaker 1: and so our brains cook the data. Lee has argued

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Speaker 1: that we simply tend to forget the parts of an

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Speaker 1: event that weren't positive.

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Speaker 3: For example, I know on my honeymoon there was a

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Speaker 3: day where both of us didn't wear sunscreen and there

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Speaker 3: were very, very uncomfortable burns. I choose not to dwell

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Speaker 3: on that. I choose not to make that the most

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Speaker 3: important aspect. But anybody who's had a pretty bad sunburn

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Speaker 3: knows that can be a deal breaker as far as

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Speaker 3: your ability to enjoy the rest of the vacation.

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Speaker 1: Our minds are also want to be movie directors. They

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Speaker 1: really like a good story, the kind that has a

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Speaker 1: happy ending, and that means that our brains unconsciously rewrite

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Speaker 1: past events so that they seem more entertaining. That sunset

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Speaker 1: becomes even more beautiful, that fish we caught becomes not

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Speaker 1: just reasonably sized, but really really huge. That beer pond

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Speaker 1: game becomes more fun and less vomit filled. And when

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Speaker 1: we do manage to remember those annoying moments, they somehow

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Speaker 1: magically transform into life lessons that provide a nice narrative arc.

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Speaker 3: So what was an absolute disaster trip could turn out

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Speaker 3: to be a hilarious story after the fact, kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 3: look at me, I managed to survive. That's kind of

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Speaker 3: an extreme example of what we call story construction or

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Speaker 3: sense making. It becomes kind of a funny story to tell.

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Speaker 1: After all these edits, our memories are no longer accurate

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Speaker 1: recordings of real life events. They're unconsciously spin doctored highlight reels.

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Speaker 1: It's a bias that Lee and her college have referred

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Speaker 1: to as rosie retrospection.

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Speaker 3: Which technically means that our memory for this bounded event

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Speaker 3: in time is a lot more favorable and positive and

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Speaker 3: fulfilling than was the actual experience of the event itself.

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Speaker 1: But rosie retrospections aren't just memories we think back on passively.

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Speaker 1: We also use them to predict what we will enjoy

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Speaker 1: and will enjoy in the future, and that leads to

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Speaker 1: a second bias, what Lee and her colleagues call Rosie prospection.

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Speaker 1: When we think about a future event, like a dinner

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Speaker 1: with friends or a vacation, we predict that it's going

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Speaker 1: to be great, just like similar events are in our

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Speaker 1: biased positive memories.

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Speaker 3: Anticipating that event, I probably wouldn't be thinking about the

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Speaker 3: stress of going through an international airport and the stress

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Speaker 3: of I don't know, packing or not getting my bag.

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Speaker 3: I'd just be thinking about, Oh, the arrival and the

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Speaker 3: perfect weather.

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Speaker 1: The idea of rosie prospection and retrospection fit well with

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Speaker 1: what Lee experienced in her own honeymoon, but did Lee's

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Speaker 1: hypothesis match what real people actually experience. Lee wanted to

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Speaker 1: test this empirically, but she had to locate a pretty

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Speaker 1: special population of subjects. She had to find a group

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Speaker 1: of people who were about to undergo a positive experience

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Speaker 1: in their lives, some sort of event that would make

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Speaker 1: for a good memory. But those people also had to

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Speaker 1: be willing to fill out a bunch of boring surveys

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Speaker 1: during the event. What Lee didn't realize at the time

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Speaker 1: was that her scientific solution to these problems would come,

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Speaker 1: oddly enough, from the biking world. Her colleague Randy Kront

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Speaker 1: was organizing a bike trip down the coast of California

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Speaker 1: for his students, and.

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Speaker 3: So we thought, oh my gosh, this is fantastic, gets

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Speaker 3: like our perfect dream study.

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Speaker 1: Lee first had the students predict how much they'd enjoy

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Speaker 1: the bike trip before it started. They were asked, how

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Speaker 1: much do you agree with these statements, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: enjoy this trip, I'm going to think this vacation is fun,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to feel good during this trip, and so on.

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Speaker 1: Subjects were also asked the same questions again when they

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Speaker 1: were on the trip itself and after the trip, when

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Speaker 1: they were on their flight back home. So what did

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Speaker 1: we find? Well before the bike trip, subjects thought their

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Speaker 1: enjoyment would be at a twenty seven out of twenty

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Speaker 1: eight total points on Lee's measure. They thought the trip

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Speaker 1: was going to be awesome, But by the second day,

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Speaker 1: subject had dropped to only a twenty out of twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: The biker's enjoyment stayed lower than they had initially predicted

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Speaker 1: for the entire week. But what happened a single day

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Speaker 1: after the bike tour ended, subjects remembered their trip much

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Speaker 1: better than it was. They said their experience was a

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Speaker 1: twenty six out of twenty eight. On average, the biker's

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Speaker 1: final post trip rating was higher than their enjoyment had

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Speaker 1: actually been at any single point during the trip. Now

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Speaker 1: that the trip was over, it was awesome when.

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Speaker 3: You ask people, Oh, you have this event coming up,

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Speaker 3: how are you feeling. Oh my gosh, it's going to

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Speaker 3: be fantastic. I'm so excited. This is going to be

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Speaker 3: so pleasureful. And then during the event, Ugh, my socks

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Speaker 3: are wet. I forgot to bring mosquito repellent, you know,

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Speaker 3: like so yucky. You know, the food they ran out

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Speaker 3: of whatever. So there's a dampening as we called it,

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Speaker 3: during the event. And then after the event, boom, all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden, the rosy retrospection kicks in, where people

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Speaker 3: are remembering the event as much more pleasureful than they

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Speaker 3: reported during the event itself.

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Speaker 1: Now, at first glance, the positive biases Lee identified may

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Speaker 1: seem like a great design feature of the mind. Rosy

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Speaker 1: retrospection allows our memory banks to be filled with extra positive,

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Speaker 1: less boring recordings of the past and Remembering all those

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Speaker 1: positively edited memories makes us feel happier, less lonely, and

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Speaker 1: even more redeemed in the present. All good stuff, really,

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Speaker 1: but Lee's research also reveals a major dark side to

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Speaker 1: these biases are positively skewed. Recollections aren't just passive recordings

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Speaker 1: that we go back to when we're feeling nostalgic. We

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Speaker 1: also use our memories in the present to make predictions

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Speaker 1: about how we ought to be spending our time. So

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Speaker 1: if our overly rosy memories are getting our past realities

435
00:23:19,996 --> 00:23:23,156
Speaker 1: really wrong, what does that mean for the accuracy with

436
00:23:23,196 --> 00:23:24,996
Speaker 1: which we're making the decisions of today.

437
00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:29,676
Speaker 3: I remember distinctly having the time of my life at

438
00:23:29,956 --> 00:23:31,596
Speaker 3: I don't know, what do you call, kind of small

439
00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:34,396
Speaker 3: town kind of carnival things that you go to at night.

440
00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:37,956
Speaker 3: They have these like rides and you'd eat cotton candy,

441
00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:40,796
Speaker 3: and I just remember thinking, this is my thing. I

442
00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:41,796
Speaker 3: want to go do that.

443
00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:45,916
Speaker 1: Even though she's a world expert on memory biases, Lee

444
00:23:45,996 --> 00:23:49,236
Speaker 1: still sometimes falls prey to the problems of her own nostalgia.

445
00:23:49,916 --> 00:23:52,996
Speaker 3: Well, I made the mistake of doing that not so

446
00:23:53,396 --> 00:23:57,556
Speaker 3: long ago, and I was dizzy. I got a migraine headache,

447
00:23:57,876 --> 00:24:02,996
Speaker 3: the cotton candy, Oh, was terrible? Like, how does anybody

448
00:24:02,996 --> 00:24:03,836
Speaker 3: eat that stuff?

449
00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:07,476
Speaker 1: Lee naturally assume that her fond memories of carnivals would

450
00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:11,116
Speaker 1: accurately predict how positively her present self would feel if

451
00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:13,556
Speaker 1: she jumped on a roller coaster or took that first

452
00:24:13,556 --> 00:24:16,556
Speaker 1: plight of cotton candy. She assumed all the great things

453
00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:19,516
Speaker 1: she remembered about fares of the past would feel just

454
00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:22,476
Speaker 1: as good today as they seemed in her nostalgic memories.

455
00:24:23,156 --> 00:24:26,156
Speaker 1: But Lee's overly glossy memories of the past wound up

456
00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:29,396
Speaker 1: reducing her current happiness and making her a little nauseous.

457
00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:33,316
Speaker 1: Constantly rewriting the past in a favorable light may make

458
00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:35,876
Speaker 1: us happier when we look back, but it also means

459
00:24:35,916 --> 00:24:38,276
Speaker 1: we don't correctly adjust to the demands of the future.

460
00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:41,716
Speaker 1: For instance, focusing on the highlights of a marriage or

461
00:24:41,716 --> 00:24:44,116
Speaker 1: a job might cause us to stay in relationships or

462
00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:46,676
Speaker 1: work environments that aren't good for us, where the bad

463
00:24:46,756 --> 00:24:50,116
Speaker 1: times in reality outweigh the good. But it's not just

464
00:24:50,156 --> 00:24:53,356
Speaker 1: our personal choices that are led astray by our biased memories.

465
00:24:53,836 --> 00:24:55,996
Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, we'll see that

466
00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,796
Speaker 1: there are also societal costs to all these rosy retrospections,

467
00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:03,796
Speaker 1: ones that can be used against us when we least expected.

468
00:25:03,996 --> 00:25:05,596
Speaker 3: America proud again.

469
00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:09,916
Speaker 1: We will make America safe again, and yes.

470
00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:14,836
Speaker 3: Together we will make America great again.

471
00:25:15,476 --> 00:25:18,756
Speaker 1: We'll explore this dark side of nostalgia when the happiness

472
00:25:18,836 --> 00:25:20,156
Speaker 1: lab returns in a moment.

473
00:25:29,996 --> 00:25:33,516
Speaker 5: I'm from Columbia and that's where I grew up until

474
00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:36,516
Speaker 5: I moved to the States eighteen years ago.

475
00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:41,036
Speaker 1: Nostalgia expert Felipe de Bregard's immigrant experience explains why he

476
00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:43,956
Speaker 1: relates so much to one of his favorite literary heroes,

477
00:25:44,396 --> 00:25:48,276
Speaker 1: Juve and al Orbino, a character in Gabriel Garcia Marcus's

478
00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:52,196
Speaker 1: famous book Love in the Time of Cholera. Like Felipe

479
00:25:52,396 --> 00:25:54,796
Speaker 1: woven All made the tough decision to leave Columbia to

480
00:25:54,836 --> 00:25:58,556
Speaker 1: study abroad, But unlike Felipe woven All's ignorance of his

481
00:25:58,636 --> 00:26:02,636
Speaker 1: own rosy retrospections never let him properly process that decision.

482
00:26:02,956 --> 00:26:06,236
Speaker 5: When he's in Paris, he phillips extraordinary nostalgic about going

483
00:26:06,276 --> 00:26:08,676
Speaker 5: back to his hometown, and he wants to go back,

484
00:26:08,716 --> 00:26:11,076
Speaker 5: doesn't he enjoyed party is And then when he goes

485
00:26:11,116 --> 00:26:14,716
Speaker 5: back he's not happy. He's like this is not at

486
00:26:14,716 --> 00:26:16,036
Speaker 5: all how I imagine it right.

487
00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:20,116
Speaker 1: Our rosie retrospections mean that we spend the present constantly

488
00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:21,716
Speaker 1: wishing we could go back to what it was like

489
00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:24,236
Speaker 1: in the past. But in the rare cases where those

490
00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:27,436
Speaker 1: wishes come true, as they did for Uvenol, we usually

491
00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:30,116
Speaker 1: find that those past situations aren't as good as we

492
00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:33,996
Speaker 1: Rosalie remembered to steal the eloquent words of Garcia Marquez.

493
00:26:34,516 --> 00:26:38,196
Speaker 1: We become easy victims to the charitable deceptions of nostalgia.

494
00:26:38,836 --> 00:26:41,956
Speaker 1: But the fact that our nostalgic tendencies are so easily

495
00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:45,476
Speaker 1: deceived also makes us easy marks for people who might

496
00:26:45,516 --> 00:26:48,916
Speaker 1: want to exploit a rosier past. Human minds are so

497
00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:52,276
Speaker 1: prone to rosy retrospection that it's really simple to feed

498
00:26:52,356 --> 00:26:54,756
Speaker 1: us a good story about what things were like back

499
00:26:54,796 --> 00:26:57,996
Speaker 1: in the day. Some imagine utopia that was better then

500
00:26:58,196 --> 00:27:01,076
Speaker 1: than it is now, which is why so many political

501
00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:03,756
Speaker 1: movements are keen to convince us that everything in life

502
00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:06,436
Speaker 1: would be peachy if we could just return to the

503
00:27:06,476 --> 00:27:07,196
Speaker 1: good old days.

504
00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:10,796
Speaker 5: That was the whole Trump campaign right, make America great Again,

505
00:27:11,236 --> 00:27:13,556
Speaker 5: and that again was clearly an indication that it was

506
00:27:13,596 --> 00:27:17,356
Speaker 5: good before and that we should strive to do something

507
00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:18,196
Speaker 5: like in the past.

508
00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:21,836
Speaker 1: Felipe saw just this pattern in his own country's right

509
00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:25,756
Speaker 1: wing propaganda, and it attempts to end decades of political violence.

510
00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:30,596
Speaker 5: I left Columbia very unhappy with the political situation. Some

511
00:27:30,636 --> 00:27:33,796
Speaker 5: of the most horrible acts ever committed by a government

512
00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:36,596
Speaker 5: I think in Colombia happened during that time. But what

513
00:27:36,756 --> 00:27:39,556
Speaker 5: is very surprising to me is that, you know, many

514
00:27:39,556 --> 00:27:42,036
Speaker 5: of the people that voted against the peace process had

515
00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:45,876
Speaker 5: an extraordinarily distorted view of how the past was, so

516
00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:49,436
Speaker 5: they were hoping to sort of go back to a

517
00:27:49,636 --> 00:27:52,876
Speaker 5: kind of life that never occurred in Colombia. Never this

518
00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:57,196
Speaker 5: situation again in which nostalgia is a very bad motivator.

519
00:27:56,956 --> 00:27:58,996
Speaker 1: And that's because the science shows that we don't just

520
00:27:59,116 --> 00:28:02,836
Speaker 1: experience nostalgia for a past that we actually experienced. Our

521
00:28:02,876 --> 00:28:06,156
Speaker 1: memories are so biased that we sometimes experienced nostalgia for

522
00:28:06,236 --> 00:28:09,556
Speaker 1: a past that never even occurred. For one the only

523
00:28:09,636 --> 00:28:10,756
Speaker 1: imagined happening.

524
00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:13,476
Speaker 5: You go like, Holy Molly, I would be so much

525
00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:16,876
Speaker 5: better off if I was in that imagined situation that

526
00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:20,916
Speaker 5: I never leave. I never experienced, but I am very

527
00:28:20,916 --> 00:28:25,116
Speaker 5: capable of mentally simulating relative to this state that I

528
00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:28,396
Speaker 5: am mean right now. It is the worst possible way

529
00:28:28,436 --> 00:28:30,396
Speaker 5: of going about making decisions.

530
00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:33,916
Speaker 1: So how can we protect ourselves from the nefarious parts

531
00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:36,556
Speaker 1: of nostalgia? How can we get the benefits of our

532
00:28:36,676 --> 00:28:40,956
Speaker 1: rosy past without all those biased memories hurting our current decisions.

533
00:28:41,436 --> 00:28:44,516
Speaker 1: Felipe thinks one path forward is to pay attention to

534
00:28:44,636 --> 00:28:46,716
Speaker 1: why we're turning to the past in the first place.

535
00:28:47,316 --> 00:28:49,956
Speaker 1: What do our memories tell us we're missing in the present.

536
00:28:51,116 --> 00:28:54,956
Speaker 5: You might think that what you want is to go

537
00:28:54,996 --> 00:28:57,556
Speaker 5: back to high school, but really what is going to

538
00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:00,276
Speaker 5: satisfy the desire is to get new friends.

539
00:29:00,836 --> 00:29:03,196
Speaker 1: But there's also a second way to avoid the problems

540
00:29:03,196 --> 00:29:04,196
Speaker 1: of nostalgia.

541
00:29:04,396 --> 00:29:06,876
Speaker 5: The funny thing is that it seems kind of contrituitive,

542
00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:09,876
Speaker 5: because what I think we should do is to improve

543
00:29:10,036 --> 00:29:13,516
Speaker 5: our memory of the past. We need historians really helping

544
00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:19,916
Speaker 5: us dispel the delutions that nostalia create. I think universities

545
00:29:19,956 --> 00:29:24,196
Speaker 5: should hire historians. I think podcasters should interview historians. The

546
00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:28,276
Speaker 5: best way to sort of minimize the distortions of nostalgia

547
00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:29,876
Speaker 5: is to actually improve our memory.

548
00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:33,596
Speaker 1: As I heard more, Felip based strategies for preventing the

549
00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:37,276
Speaker 1: problems of rosie retrospection I realized I needed to talk

550
00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:39,756
Speaker 1: to someone who had special insight into how to use

551
00:29:39,796 --> 00:29:44,276
Speaker 1: our fond memories productively. Not a historian or scholar, but

552
00:29:44,396 --> 00:29:47,676
Speaker 1: someone whose entire career could have been defined by the past,

553
00:29:48,036 --> 00:29:51,076
Speaker 1: but wasn't my eighties idol Rob Low.

554
00:29:51,716 --> 00:29:54,436
Speaker 4: Listen, I love the eighties as much as the next guy.

555
00:29:54,756 --> 00:29:59,396
Speaker 4: But when people come up to me, the thing that

556
00:29:59,396 --> 00:30:01,916
Speaker 4: I'm most proud of in all my career is that

557
00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:06,516
Speaker 4: I never know what they're going to want to talk about.

558
00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:11,116
Speaker 4: I love that I'm not anchored to any one era,

559
00:30:12,116 --> 00:30:16,116
Speaker 4: or to any one TV show, or to any one movie.

560
00:30:16,756 --> 00:30:21,316
Speaker 4: The eighties is merely a fantastic chapter that a lot

561
00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:22,556
Speaker 4: of people like, including me.

562
00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:26,116
Speaker 1: Unlike many stars from the eighties, Rob managed not to

563
00:30:26,116 --> 00:30:29,036
Speaker 1: get stuck there. Despite the fact that Rob is himself

564
00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:31,756
Speaker 1: very nostalgic, and the fact that he is, for me

565
00:30:31,796 --> 00:30:35,996
Speaker 1: at least, the absolute epitome of eighties nostalgia, He's seamlessly

566
00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:39,636
Speaker 1: managed to move beyond that decade. Nearly all of Rob's

567
00:30:39,636 --> 00:30:43,116
Speaker 1: biggest successes in movies and TV, as an author, and

568
00:30:43,156 --> 00:30:46,036
Speaker 1: now even in podcasting with his new show, Literally with

569
00:30:46,116 --> 00:30:49,756
Speaker 1: Rob Low, They've all come since the eighties for self

570
00:30:49,836 --> 00:30:53,796
Speaker 1: proclaimed lover of nostalgia, Rob hasn't let his rosy retrospection

571
00:30:53,996 --> 00:30:56,996
Speaker 1: affect his present success or his current happiness.

572
00:30:57,516 --> 00:30:59,476
Speaker 4: One of my greatest fears was always being a one

573
00:30:59,516 --> 00:31:04,116
Speaker 4: hit wonder. Four decades in, I still wake up and go,

574
00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:05,636
Speaker 4: am I one head wonder?

575
00:31:05,876 --> 00:31:09,036
Speaker 1: So what's Rob's secret? Well, even though he's not a psychologist,

576
00:31:09,356 --> 00:31:11,676
Speaker 1: Rob seems to have an intuitive sense that our memories

577
00:31:11,716 --> 00:31:14,956
Speaker 1: are more fallible than we realize. His unique cultural seat

578
00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:17,356
Speaker 1: in the eighties has made him all too aware that

579
00:31:17,436 --> 00:31:20,316
Speaker 1: we sometimes celebrate parts of the past that were at

580
00:31:20,316 --> 00:31:21,796
Speaker 1: the time kind of sucky.

581
00:31:22,356 --> 00:31:24,796
Speaker 4: So in the eighties, everybody shit all over the music.

582
00:31:25,436 --> 00:31:30,556
Speaker 4: It seems shocking now, but like when did journeys Can't

583
00:31:30,556 --> 00:31:33,476
Speaker 4: Stop Believing become the national anthem? Because I remember the

584
00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:38,276
Speaker 4: eighties and people laughed at Journey. They thought they were

585
00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:44,556
Speaker 4: a cheesy, hack rock band. Now that's every college campus

586
00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:48,076
Speaker 4: frat party. Raise your beer, start crying and dancing song.

587
00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:50,916
Speaker 4: It's the end of the Sopranos. If you'd have told

588
00:31:50,956 --> 00:31:53,076
Speaker 4: me in nineteen eighty four that that was the song,

589
00:31:53,116 --> 00:31:54,796
Speaker 4: I would have said, no way.

590
00:31:56,116 --> 00:31:58,516
Speaker 1: Well, it's easy for all of us to misremember the past.

591
00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:01,036
Speaker 1: That's a luxury that people who've lived in the public

592
00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:04,996
Speaker 1: eye don't always have. Rob's problems with substance addiction and

593
00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:08,276
Speaker 1: sex scandals are common knowledge, and that means that Rob

594
00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:10,996
Speaker 1: has had to be on with himself about the harmful

595
00:32:10,996 --> 00:32:13,876
Speaker 1: actions he engaged in as a young man. It's made

596
00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:18,116
Speaker 1: him penitent and more clear eyed about the past. Rob's

597
00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:20,956
Speaker 1: also gotten a newfound perspective on the challenges of teenage

598
00:32:20,956 --> 00:32:23,956
Speaker 1: life as a father to his own boys, Matthew and John.

599
00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:27,876
Speaker 1: Rob's kids never became huge teen movie stars like their dad.

600
00:32:28,636 --> 00:32:30,676
Speaker 1: Watching Matthew and John grow up with more run of

601
00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:34,316
Speaker 1: the mill adolescent milestones has made Rob realize just how

602
00:32:34,316 --> 00:32:35,916
Speaker 1: odd his own experience was.

603
00:32:36,836 --> 00:32:42,356
Speaker 4: My son is eighteen, Okay, so now he's world famous.

604
00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:45,956
Speaker 4: That kid right there, eighteen world famous, and it just

605
00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:48,996
Speaker 4: takes my breath away. I'm like, I wouldn't wish that

606
00:32:50,036 --> 00:32:53,956
Speaker 4: on that eighteen year old kid. He's never home, he's

607
00:32:53,996 --> 00:32:57,036
Speaker 4: on the road, he's making tons of money, and it's like,

608
00:32:57,156 --> 00:32:58,356
Speaker 4: I can't believe it happened to me.

609
00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:01,876
Speaker 1: But Rob's biggest insight comes from something we talk about

610
00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:04,916
Speaker 1: a lot on this podcast. To be fully happy, we

611
00:33:04,956 --> 00:33:06,756
Speaker 1: need to get out of the past long enough to

612
00:33:06,796 --> 00:33:09,196
Speaker 1: make the most of the present moment. When you think

613
00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:11,796
Speaker 1: about happiness, do you think it's more about looking back

614
00:33:11,876 --> 00:33:14,316
Speaker 1: looking forward, a combination of both, Like how do you

615
00:33:14,316 --> 00:33:15,556
Speaker 1: think about it in your own life?

616
00:33:16,196 --> 00:33:19,636
Speaker 4: It's not looking forward and not looking back. Although we've

617
00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:22,236
Speaker 4: been talking about nostalgia, which doesn't make me happy, obviously,

618
00:33:22,316 --> 00:33:28,716
Speaker 4: really happy, true happiness is being present in this moment

619
00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:32,836
Speaker 4: and your mind's not telling you, hey, you know what

620
00:33:32,876 --> 00:33:34,516
Speaker 4: you should really be doing, you should be doing X,

621
00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:37,156
Speaker 4: Y and Z, or hey, you know you should really

622
00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:40,196
Speaker 4: go back. None of that. That monkey brain part of

623
00:33:40,236 --> 00:33:43,596
Speaker 4: yourself is shut off, and you are fully present in

624
00:33:43,676 --> 00:33:47,716
Speaker 4: whatever you were doing and content with that. That is

625
00:33:47,876 --> 00:33:50,116
Speaker 4: the definition of true happiness for me.

626
00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:53,676
Speaker 1: This insight into the importance of making sure he's living

627
00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:56,036
Speaker 1: in the present moment came from one of the hardest

628
00:33:56,076 --> 00:33:57,436
Speaker 1: won battles of Rob's life.

629
00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:01,796
Speaker 4: I've been sober now thirty years and it's you know,

630
00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:05,236
Speaker 4: it changed my life, and one of the big tenets

631
00:34:05,276 --> 00:34:07,716
Speaker 4: of recovery is learning to live in the now and

632
00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:10,356
Speaker 4: learning to be happy with what's in front of you.

633
00:34:10,916 --> 00:34:12,556
Speaker 4: To the extent that I'm able to do that on

634
00:34:12,596 --> 00:34:16,116
Speaker 4: a daily basis is a direct correlation to how happy

635
00:34:16,116 --> 00:34:17,356
Speaker 4: I am at any given time.

636
00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:21,676
Speaker 1: Nostalgia can be a pleasant experience, but our memories of

637
00:34:21,716 --> 00:34:23,956
Speaker 1: the past can also hurt our present selves if we're

638
00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:27,196
Speaker 1: not careful. But when we take a present focus, when

639
00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:29,236
Speaker 1: we learn to be content with what's in front of us,

640
00:34:29,596 --> 00:34:31,876
Speaker 1: when we recognize that we want to remember what's going

641
00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:34,276
Speaker 1: on in the here and now as happily as possible,

642
00:34:34,876 --> 00:34:37,076
Speaker 1: we can avoid the problems that come with an extra

643
00:34:37,196 --> 00:34:41,996
Speaker 1: rosy retrospection. Rob's living proof that understanding our mind's biases

644
00:34:42,276 --> 00:34:45,196
Speaker 1: can help us appreciate our past and even dig into

645
00:34:45,236 --> 00:34:49,556
Speaker 1: all that yummy and psychologically beneficial nostalgia without the drawbacks.

646
00:34:50,156 --> 00:34:52,196
Speaker 1: When we notice what we're longing for in the past,

647
00:34:52,556 --> 00:34:55,236
Speaker 1: we can choose not to go backwards, but decide how

648
00:34:55,236 --> 00:34:57,916
Speaker 1: to move forward in the future. Rob taught me that

649
00:34:57,996 --> 00:34:59,916
Speaker 1: an accurate sense of the pros and cons of the

650
00:34:59,916 --> 00:35:02,356
Speaker 1: past can be a helpful way to enjoy and make

651
00:35:02,396 --> 00:35:05,076
Speaker 1: the most of the present, which was really good news

652
00:35:05,076 --> 00:35:08,196
Speaker 1: for me because I really really wasn't ready to throw

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00:35:08,196 --> 00:35:12,156
Speaker 1: away my eighties playlist just yet. In fact, after chatting

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00:35:12,156 --> 00:35:14,676
Speaker 1: with Rob, I think it's time for a long classic

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00:35:14,796 --> 00:35:19,676
Speaker 1: eighties movie marathon and maybe some cheesy music videos because

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00:35:19,796 --> 00:35:22,436
Speaker 1: I definitely still want my MTV