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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. An accident in

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Speaker 1: redacting a court filing by Paul Manafort's defense team has

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Speaker 1: given an unintended glimpse at potentially damaging areas of Special

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Speaker 1: Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into Russian meddling in the twenty

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Speaker 1: six presidential election. The document shows that Trump's former campaign

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Speaker 1: chair shared polling data on the election with an associate

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Speaker 1: tied to Russian intelligence and lied about it. Joining me

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Speaker 1: is Jimmy Grule, a professor at Notre Dame Law School.

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Speaker 1: Jimmy tell us more about the information the redaction revealed. Well,

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Speaker 1: revealed that that there was this meeting again, as you stated,

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Speaker 1: between Paul Manafort, who was at the time the Trump

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Speaker 1: campaign him and in an individual by the name of

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Speaker 1: Constantine Clinic and Clinics, a very interesting individual. The U.

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Speaker 1: S Intelligence community has reason to believe that he's connected

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Speaker 1: to Russian intelligence and apparently the purpose of the meeting

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Speaker 1: was for Manafort to share this internal polling data with Colinic,

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Speaker 1: and so this raises a number of very serious and

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Speaker 1: important questions. You know, first, why would the campaign chairman

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Speaker 1: share this, this internal polling data with an individual connected

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Speaker 1: to Russian intelligence? And I think the obvious reasonable explanation

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Speaker 1: is that this would be information that would assist the Russians, again,

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Speaker 1: if passed on by Clinic to to others in the

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Speaker 1: Russian intelligence community to target to assist Trump and getting elected.

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Speaker 1: That's the bottom line, to assist Trump in getting elected

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Speaker 1: by enabling the Russians to better target their social media

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Speaker 1: campaign to assist and motivate Trump voters and to suppress

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton voters. Is this the clearest evidence we have

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Speaker 1: seen so far of collusion or what lawyers might call

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Speaker 1: conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia. I think there's

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Speaker 1: no question that it is. It's clearly the most concrete,

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Speaker 1: direct evidence of the Trump campaign conspiring with Russian officials

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Speaker 1: to aid Trump and getting elected. But despite all the

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Speaker 1: information we've seen, there still is no connection to the president.

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Speaker 1: Is that right? That's correct? So that that's the other

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Speaker 1: important questions I raised. The first, you know, what was

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Speaker 1: the purpose of the meeting? How did it benefit the

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign? The next question, and again it's an open question,

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Speaker 1: is was Trump aware? Was Trump aware Candidate Trump aware

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Speaker 1: at that time that this meeting was taking place. Did

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Speaker 1: he give his blessing? Did he encourage man of words

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Speaker 1: to meet with Clinic? Was just something that Manafort did

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Speaker 1: on his own, without the President's knowledge. So, Jimmy, most

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Speaker 1: of the time when the FBI or prosecutors are questioning cooperators,

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Speaker 1: they know the answers to the questions. Was this a

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Speaker 1: case of Manafort saying something and then the prosecutors saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: but we have this evidence, and then Manafort saying, I

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Speaker 1: forgot that You're right? And is this what Mueller is

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Speaker 1: calling lies by Manafort? Yeah, that's the issue. I mean.

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Speaker 1: So again, the context in which this this new information

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Speaker 1: was revealed wasn't a document that was filed by Manafort's

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Speaker 1: attorneys with the court in Washington, d c. In an

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Speaker 1: effort to contest allegations by by Mueller's lawyers that Manafort

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Speaker 1: did not cooperate fully in the investigation, that he lied

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Speaker 1: to Mueller's investigators. And basically, Manafort's lawyers are saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: he he forgot you know that this is just something

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Speaker 1: that that he didn't remember at the time. As you stated,

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Speaker 1: the questioning by Mueller's lawyers of Manafort would be very

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Speaker 1: very specific, and if he stated, oh, I don't recall

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Speaker 1: or that may have happened, they would have probably followed

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Speaker 1: up with very specific questions, what about this date, what

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Speaker 1: about this time? And again, this would be based on

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Speaker 1: on concrete evidence that they have to establish this particular

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Speaker 1: connection and this meeting between Manafort and clinic. Manaport's defense

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Speaker 1: attorneys aren't even seeking a hearing about Mueller pulling this

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Speaker 1: plea agreement. Where does this leave Maniford as far as sentencing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, isn't it. So they're not requesting a hearing

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Speaker 1: to contest Mueller's claims of breach of the plea agreement.

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Speaker 1: You would think that if they truly believe that this

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Speaker 1: was simply a memory oversight by Maniford, that they would

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Speaker 1: want to have a hearing. Maybe they would want to

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Speaker 1: introduce evidence, maybe witnesses, maybe called Manafort himself to explain

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Speaker 1: this this oversight, But they're not requesting that. They're not

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Speaker 1: requesting that, which is very curious in and of itself,

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Speaker 1: and so I think at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: the court is going to make a determination based on

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Speaker 1: the pleadings that have been submitted regarding whether or not

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Speaker 1: Manafort should receive any benefit for cooperating with an older investigation,

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Speaker 1: and if not, then he's going to be sentenced to

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Speaker 1: a substantial term of imprisonment. Another big reveal, also on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: is that the Russian lawyer who attended the norm Tower

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Speaker 1: meeting in June between Manafort, Jared Kushner, and Donald Trump Jr.

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Speaker 1: Has been indicted for obstruction of justice. How significant is that? Well,

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Speaker 1: that's of significant development as well, because now the fact

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Speaker 1: that Valisntskaya, this Russian lawyer, has been indict the government

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Speaker 1: has leverage. They have leverage that they could exert against

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Speaker 1: her in an effort to obtain her cooperation and in

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Speaker 1: the Muller investigation. And so there's a real incentive now

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Speaker 1: for her to cooperate in the investigation and disclose any relevant,

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Speaker 1: credible information that she has that could assist Mueller in

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Speaker 1: the Russia probe. This came out of the Southern District

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Speaker 1: of New York, though the prosecutors there. Why do you

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Speaker 1: think the Special Council gave it to them or handed

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Speaker 1: it off. Yeah, because again, it doesn't fall clearly within

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Speaker 1: the scope of the Special Council's mandate. And so the

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Speaker 1: mandate of the Special Council is to again investigate collusion

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Speaker 1: between the Trump campaign and Russians, and so this is

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Speaker 1: kind of a side issue. It's it's a crime that

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Speaker 1: maybe has some relevance, but it's certainly not central to

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Speaker 1: the Muller investigation. And so they decided that it would

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Speaker 1: be better for the Southern District of New York to

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Speaker 1: handle the matter. Thanks Jimmy. That's Jimmy Garula, a professor

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Speaker 1: at Notre Dame Law School. Thanks for listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the

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Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com

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Speaker 1: slash podcast. I am June Brosso. This is Bloomberg