WEBVTT - Should AOC talk to MAHA?

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a show about everything

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<v Speaker 1>being totally fine and great, always, right now. I'm Garrison Davis.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm joined by Dr. Kafei Oda.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything is great. You're doing great. I'm doing great. Things

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<v Speaker 2>are fantastic. Oh, ketamine.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. It's good to see you again, Kaveh. Last time

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<v Speaker 1>we spoke was on your podcast, House of Pod.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, about looks maxing. Yeah, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, it's just nice to see you. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's nice to see your face. And it's nice to

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<v Speaker 2>hear your voice. And I know we're going to be

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<v Speaker 2>talking about some stuff that I actually am very curious

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<v Speaker 2>to hear your thoughts on. I exist very much in

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<v Speaker 2>the doctor, science, public health world online. And I hear

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of those voices. I have a good sense

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<v Speaker 2>of the variety of voices coming out of those spaces

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<v Speaker 2>on the topics we're going to touch on today. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I really want to hear your thoughts about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I want to hear your thoughts on it, not

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<v Speaker 1>just because you're a doctor, but because you have also

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<v Speaker 1>done a decent bit of... research or have spent some

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<v Speaker 1>time in the digital Maha universe.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I have.

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<v Speaker 1>As an outsider.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>We talked about Maha not too long ago on your

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<v Speaker 1>show as well. We kind of talked about some of

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<v Speaker 1>like the class dynamics of Maha, how the sort of

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<v Speaker 1>healthier lifestyles that some of these influencers push for is

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<v Speaker 1>unaffordable to a lot of working class people.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're going to talk about Maha once again today.

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<v Speaker 1>And because of how much time you've spent watching those

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<v Speaker 1>horrible Maha podcasts... Too much. I listen to a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of RFK Jr.

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<v Speaker 2>'s podcasts. I think it might have hurt my brain.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I did things to myself that I have

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<v Speaker 2>not fully recovered from.

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<v Speaker 1>But because of your experience, I want to briefly ask you...

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<v Speaker 1>What Maha is? What do you understand Maha being? But

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<v Speaker 1>before we talk about this whole idea, which this episode

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<v Speaker 1>is about, it's in the title, about if you should

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<v Speaker 1>do outreach to these people, what are the risks of that?

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<v Speaker 1>What are the benefits of that potentially? Who actually are

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<v Speaker 1>these people? What is Maha?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a really great question and something I have been

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<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out myself. Largely, like a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 2>when I first heard of it, was kind of hoping

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<v Speaker 2>it would go away. It wasn't, it didn't. And it

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<v Speaker 2>is a actual factor now that we have to take

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<v Speaker 2>into account and discuss. It's real and it's very important.

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<v Speaker 2>And what I have learned from going into these Maha spaces,

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<v Speaker 2>which I tragically have done, and also not just Maha spaces,

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<v Speaker 2>but sort of the Maha adjacent spaces.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Things like the Andrew Huberman podcast and the Peter Attia stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>I've done a lot of work into that for episodes.

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<v Speaker 2>And that has given me, I think, a pretty broad

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<v Speaker 2>sense of what's going on. Now, I think the easy

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<v Speaker 2>thing for most people when they hear Maha, they think

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<v Speaker 2>anti-vaxxer because, you know, RFK Jr.

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<v Speaker 1>RFK Jr.

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<v Speaker 2>Anti-vaxxer.

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<v Speaker 1>That's like the first two associations.

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<v Speaker 2>But it is important to know that they are not monolithic.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of variation there. And actually, if you

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<v Speaker 2>poll them, if you ask them, which I think we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to get into, Maha supporters... of which there are

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<v Speaker 2>varieties of, from mild to severe supporters, they will actually

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<v Speaker 2>not say that vaccines are their top issue. Now, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't believe that. If I'm being totally honest, I just

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<v Speaker 2>don't believe that.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there are Maha people who vaccines are their

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<v Speaker 1>top issue. Absolutely. Right. And they are very vocal online.

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<v Speaker 1>I think what we'll kind of get to in a

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<v Speaker 1>bit is that there's other Maha people or people in like,

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<v Speaker 1>as you say, this kind of Maha extended universe.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Who maybe do not list vaccines as their top issue. Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>But obviously, this is like culturally like a big part

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<v Speaker 1>of the Maha Association.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. And when you ask them, what is their

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<v Speaker 2>top priority? The thing that comes up the most is

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<v Speaker 2>actually the cost of health care. And then that's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of followed by other things like, you know, chemicals in food. Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Restricting environmental pollutants, limiting corporate influence in food policy and

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<v Speaker 2>limiting you know, malfeasance by healthcare institutions and insurance, which,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, when you say that, it all sounds actually

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<v Speaker 2>pretty reasonable and pretty, if you take it out of

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<v Speaker 2>its current context, left-coded. These are all sort of, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>relatively traditionally leftist ideas. Now, that being said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>aside from ushering in the golden age of diarrhea, undermining

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<v Speaker 2>vaccines has really been at the core of Kennedy's HHS.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the few things he's actually successfully accomplished

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<v Speaker 2>is dismantling that And so even I, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it. And I see the polling that says, no,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not only about 4% of Maha really care about vaccines.

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<v Speaker 1>I've definitely seen other polling, which.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And I would just say from my personal experience

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<v Speaker 2>online again, and I am, I am an old, as

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<v Speaker 2>you are very well aware, Garrison, you have helped me

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<v Speaker 2>out in the ways young people do with old people online.

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<v Speaker 1>In the ways of looks backstage.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. You helped me out a lot of this stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>but I have, when I am online or even IRL,

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<v Speaker 2>as I hear the kids say, if you push them

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<v Speaker 2>on vaccines, it becomes pretty clear that there are really

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<v Speaker 2>only very few pro-vaccine Maha folks. And even then, it's

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<v Speaker 2>usually like, oh, well, the polio vaccine was fine. And

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<v Speaker 2>they don't even think that's necessary anymore. So Maha is

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<v Speaker 2>a big, diverse group of people.

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<v Speaker 1>It is.

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<v Speaker 2>And the movement itself is really powerful and has done

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<v Speaker 2>a lot in two years. And if nothing else, they

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<v Speaker 2>have done an amazing thing with their branding and being

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<v Speaker 2>able to draw in people to this big tent. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's the best I can do to explain Maha, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I really understand why this question of should you

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<v Speaker 1>do outreach to these people is so charged because this

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<v Speaker 1>really is a life and death issue, like in like

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<v Speaker 1>a literal sense, right? This sort of like movement that's

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<v Speaker 1>come up, like up and around RFK Jr. has caused

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of deadly harm. Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>In the world. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>In the name of make America healthy again.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>RFK Jr. has rolled back childhood vaccine recommendations, has overseen

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<v Speaker 1>massive budget and staffing cuts at HHS, CDC and the FDA.

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<v Speaker 1>The administration has cut snap food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid and

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<v Speaker 1>the anti-vax movement more broadly. has contributed to measles outbreaks

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<v Speaker 1>in multiple states. This is real harms that have been

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<v Speaker 1>done in the name of health.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the funniest part about it. That's the great

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<v Speaker 2>part about all this.

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<v Speaker 1>And something that we'll kind of get to in a bit,

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<v Speaker 1>any sort of potential outreach, and I'm not recommending... my

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<v Speaker 1>listeners do this outreach at all. That's not what this

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<v Speaker 1>episode is for. But because all of these things that

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<v Speaker 1>RFK and Trump has done in the name of health,

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<v Speaker 1>because of how bad they are, that does also open

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<v Speaker 1>up a lot of opportunity for people to attack RFK Jr.

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<v Speaker 1>on this massive level of failure, including failing on a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of things that MAHA people largely believe in. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think something that's really unique and interesting about MAHA

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<v Speaker 1>compared to other aspects of the Trump world, is that

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<v Speaker 1>Maha doesn't have the exact same kind of cult of

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<v Speaker 1>personality around RFK Jr. the way MAGA does around Trump.

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<v Speaker 1>And Maha is also just not nearly as loyal to

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<v Speaker 1>Trump himself.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, actually, let me ask you that, because that is

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<v Speaker 2>the narrative now, is that Maha and MAGA are headed

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<v Speaker 2>for a divorce and that they are diverging. But I

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<v Speaker 2>don't really see the evidence of that. What you say,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, is really interesting, though, in that even though

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<v Speaker 2>Maha is a pretty popular movement, and we'll talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the numbers of people that support it, at least in

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<v Speaker 2>some way, RFK Jr. is not viewed largely by the

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<v Speaker 2>American population as trustworthy and someone that they rely on.

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<v Speaker 1>No, Maha is much more popular than RFK Jr. is.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it is really important in this discussion

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<v Speaker 1>to understand that Maha isn't even uniformly Republican.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And the movement and its goals are actually much more diffuse.

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<v Speaker 1>According to a Politico poll from June of 2026, so

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<v Speaker 1>fairly recently, just under one-third of U.S. adults identify as

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<v Speaker 1>a part of Maha, 31%, and 20% of respondents said

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<v Speaker 1>that they support the movement but don't identify as a

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<v Speaker 1>part of it. So that's 50% of Americans who say

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<v Speaker 1>they at least support the movement, only 30% of which

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<v Speaker 1>wants to actually openly identify with the movement.

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<v Speaker 4>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And of the people who Politico polled, 20% of those

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<v Speaker 1>who identified as Maha also voted for Kamala Harris.

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<v Speaker 2>That's interesting. That's actually more than expected.

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<v Speaker 1>And 17% of respondents who support the movement but don't

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<v Speaker 1>identify as a part of it in name also voted

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<v Speaker 1>for Harris. And you can compare these results to a

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<v Speaker 1>poll from the KFF, formerly the Kaiser Family Foundation. Their

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<v Speaker 1>poll was from May 2026. They found that 41% of U.S.

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<v Speaker 1>adults are Maha supporters, half of which identify as Republicans, 30% independent,

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<v Speaker 1>and 15% Democrat.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of interesting things about this polling. One,

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<v Speaker 2>that it's more common, commonly you'll see online people refer

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<v Speaker 2>to the 4 in 10 American support Maha, but there

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<v Speaker 2>is a variation of how much support that means. And

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<v Speaker 2>if you're going to ask somebody, Yeah, do you want

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<v Speaker 2>chemicals in your food? Most people will say, no, not really.

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<v Speaker 2>Or they'll say, do you want stricter food monitoring? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>most people are going to say yes, unless you're some

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<v Speaker 2>weird libertarian that's just like the marketplace of diarrhea will

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<v Speaker 2>solve those problems. So it's understandable. Again, the branding is

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<v Speaker 2>really good and it works for a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 2>It is interesting that so many people who may believe

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<v Speaker 2>in at least some degree of it don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>be labeled. as Maha.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they realize how it looks, largely. There is

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<v Speaker 1>a stink to it. And there is a very strong

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<v Speaker 1>kind of anti-science component to Maha in name proper, most

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<v Speaker 1>of which, but not exclusively, most of which revolves around vaccines.

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<v Speaker 1>And like you said, there actually is broad support for

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<v Speaker 1>many components of Maha, things that Maha influencers talk about

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<v Speaker 1>pretty often, regardless of whether people actually identify with or

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<v Speaker 1>agree with the movement as a whole. There's broad support

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<v Speaker 1>for improving our diets and increasing fitness, for reducing exposure

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<v Speaker 1>to harmful chemicals, and limiting the influence of pharmaceutical companies.

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<v Speaker 1>There is general broad support for all of those issues

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<v Speaker 1>in this political poll, regardless of whether the respondents were

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<v Speaker 1>MAHA or not. So there is this broad support, with

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<v Speaker 1>the exception for vaccines. And that is where all of

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<v Speaker 1>these polls and stats take a really big divergence in

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<v Speaker 1>this political poll. 65% of Maha said that they support

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<v Speaker 1>reducing how many vaccines Americans receive, compared to 23% of non-Maha.

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<v Speaker 1>And those who support the movement but don't identify it

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<v Speaker 1>in name are kind of in the middle at 45%. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So that is like the clearest split in all of

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<v Speaker 1>this polling. But what's interesting is that this vaccine question

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<v Speaker 1>also has, in terms of all of the Maha priorities...

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<v Speaker 1>that people in Maha support themselves, this has the least

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<v Speaker 1>amount of support among their own movement. This is 65%,

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<v Speaker 1>as opposed to limiting the influence of pharmaceutical companies, which

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<v Speaker 1>had 80% support. So that is an interesting peek into

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<v Speaker 1>the fractures within this Maha brand itself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is. It is interesting as it's becoming bigger

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<v Speaker 2>and becoming more like they're trying to codify it a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit as an organization or as a group. how

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<v Speaker 2>you're starting to see some of those little cracks form.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, getting to the question, which has been coming

0:12:23.090 --> 0:12:25.990
<v Speaker 2>up about this, does this mean that we should be

0:12:26.050 --> 0:12:29.010
<v Speaker 2>reaching out to these people? Because there is this variation

0:12:29.050 --> 0:12:32.310
<v Speaker 2>in beliefs and that we have the opportunity as people who,

0:12:32.330 --> 0:12:35.910
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, believe in vaccines to talk to these

0:12:35.950 --> 0:12:39.310
<v Speaker 2>people and bring them back. Is it politically something that's

0:12:39.370 --> 0:12:43.180
<v Speaker 2>worthwhile to bring those people into the margins? That Last part,

0:12:43.260 --> 0:12:45.850
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, because I don't really have a great

0:12:45.929 --> 0:12:49.750
<v Speaker 2>sense of, you know, how politically this group will function

0:12:49.770 --> 0:12:50.930
<v Speaker 2>in the next coming elections.

0:12:51.370 --> 0:12:51.589
<v Speaker 1>I don't.

0:12:52.179 --> 0:12:55.820
<v Speaker 2>Really know if AOC has to do the outreach that

0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.460
<v Speaker 2>she's been doing and that's been getting a lot of press.

0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.120
<v Speaker 2>I do think the question from just the public health

0:13:01.140 --> 0:13:04.260
<v Speaker 2>standpoint is a really interesting one. It's one I'm really

0:13:04.350 --> 0:13:07.610
<v Speaker 2>grappling with. What do we do? Do we in this

0:13:07.670 --> 0:13:12.410
<v Speaker 2>country need Maha? Does public health need Maha? That's a

0:13:12.470 --> 0:13:15.030
<v Speaker 2>literal question that has been asked by some very smart

0:13:15.570 --> 0:13:18.609
<v Speaker 2>public health people online, some of which I know very

0:13:18.650 --> 0:13:20.650
<v Speaker 2>well and have been on the podcast like Craig Spencer

0:13:20.690 --> 0:13:22.730
<v Speaker 2>and got a lot of grief for it. It's a

0:13:22.770 --> 0:13:25.790
<v Speaker 2>tough question. And honestly, I may have a different answer

0:13:26.470 --> 0:13:30.190
<v Speaker 2>in a month. My belief is we don't need Maha,

0:13:30.350 --> 0:13:34.359
<v Speaker 2>but we do need the people in Maha to reconsider

0:13:34.420 --> 0:13:37.640
<v Speaker 2>some of their voting patterns and their vaccine choices. And

0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 2>it's a tough call for me. I really have two

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.330
<v Speaker 2>minds about it. On one hand, I do believe it's

0:13:42.350 --> 0:13:44.369
<v Speaker 2>important to reach out and convince as many people as

0:13:44.410 --> 0:13:48.250
<v Speaker 2>we can that Maha is making people less healthy overall. well,

0:13:48.270 --> 0:13:50.050
<v Speaker 2>all the things that have been enacted in the name

0:13:50.090 --> 0:13:52.609
<v Speaker 2>of Maha, even despite all these things that they seem

0:13:52.630 --> 0:13:56.080
<v Speaker 2>to be interested in, haven't really done that. And then

0:13:56.100 --> 0:13:58.860
<v Speaker 2>on the other hand, yeah, historically, we've probably done a

0:13:58.900 --> 0:14:02.780
<v Speaker 2>poor job of explaining the point and the safety of vaccines.

0:14:03.340 --> 0:14:05.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, to be fair, it didn't always used to

0:14:05.100 --> 0:14:07.340
<v Speaker 2>be the issue that it currently is. There's always been

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.679
<v Speaker 2>this anti-vaccine sense, but public health officials and doctors were

0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:16.110
<v Speaker 2>not really trained in political persuasion the way a lawyer is.

0:14:16.309 --> 0:14:20.290
<v Speaker 2>And I understand I might be a little condescending when

0:14:20.340 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I say all this stuff, and I don't mean to be,

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.900
<v Speaker 2>but two things. I refuse to believe that we're in

0:14:24.940 --> 0:14:27.820
<v Speaker 2>the situation that we're in now because we somehow messed

0:14:27.900 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>up and we weren't nice enough to like the Jim

0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Carys and the Jenny McCarthy's of the world. And yeah,

0:14:34.420 --> 0:14:36.610
<v Speaker 2>maybe that your doctor was a jerk at some point

0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.970
<v Speaker 2>and made you feel bad about not getting a vaccine.

0:14:38.990 --> 0:14:41.980
<v Speaker 2>But But that's not the reason we have the situation

0:14:42.020 --> 0:14:44.900
<v Speaker 2>we're in. And even if it was, it doesn't mean

0:14:44.980 --> 0:14:47.840
<v Speaker 2>that everything that we have to do in terms of

0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:50.990
<v Speaker 2>Maha is changed. Our outreach... does not need to change

0:14:51.070 --> 0:14:53.710
<v Speaker 2>because of that. We should, I do think that, I

0:14:53.750 --> 0:14:55.830
<v Speaker 2>think we need to be talking about these people. We

0:14:55.850 --> 0:14:57.550
<v Speaker 2>need to be connecting on the things that we can

0:14:57.570 --> 0:15:00.170
<v Speaker 2>totally connect on. And these polls show us that there

0:15:00.350 --> 0:15:03.090
<v Speaker 2>are a lot of varieties of what we can connect with.

0:15:03.130 --> 0:15:05.220
<v Speaker 2>We can connect with the cost of healthcare. We could

0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 2>talk about improving public health infrastructure. And we, our politicians

0:15:10.300 --> 0:15:13.410
<v Speaker 2>who are aligning with these things, They should make it

0:15:13.450 --> 0:15:15.740
<v Speaker 2>clear that President Trump not only didn't run on it,

0:15:16.170 --> 0:15:19.770
<v Speaker 2>him and RFK Jr. haven't advanced any credible benefit to

0:15:19.810 --> 0:15:22.870
<v Speaker 2>lowering healthcare costs. In fact, the big, beautiful bill is

0:15:22.970 --> 0:15:25.210
<v Speaker 2>only going to make things worse and going to destroy

0:15:25.290 --> 0:15:27.950
<v Speaker 2>rural hospitals. I think there are things in these polls

0:15:27.990 --> 0:15:30.979
<v Speaker 2>that show us we can address some of those points

0:15:31.030 --> 0:15:34.020
<v Speaker 2>with people without having to capitulate.

0:15:34.180 --> 0:15:36.740
<v Speaker 1>And that's key. That is the key aspect.

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Right. And I know people are worried about that, that

0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:41.660
<v Speaker 2>this could be like the Trojan horse if we try

0:15:41.700 --> 0:15:47.070
<v Speaker 2>to embrace... these Maha people, then it'll shift AOC or

0:15:47.090 --> 0:15:50.240
<v Speaker 2>all other politicians or even public health officials sort of

0:15:50.300 --> 0:15:53.560
<v Speaker 2>to be more, you know, open to the anti-vax perspective.

0:15:53.980 --> 0:15:55.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's the right attitude. I mean, as

0:15:55.820 --> 0:15:57.940
<v Speaker 2>distasteful as it may be, and again, I'm probably not

0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.200
<v Speaker 2>the right person for this because I don't have the sophistication,

0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.479
<v Speaker 2>but as distasteful as it might be, this movement is

0:16:04.500 --> 0:16:07.400
<v Speaker 2>just two years old and it draws some level of

0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.700
<v Speaker 2>support from four and 10 Americans and And it's something

0:16:10.740 --> 0:16:13.270
<v Speaker 2>that we have to take seriously and we have to

0:16:13.970 --> 0:16:17.410
<v Speaker 2>try and connect where we can, try to be empathetic

0:16:17.450 --> 0:16:19.410
<v Speaker 2>when we can, try to understand what we can, but

0:16:19.450 --> 0:16:22.410
<v Speaker 2>we cannot, and I think this is super duper important,

0:16:23.110 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 2>we cannot give an inch on our scientific principles. And

0:16:28.030 --> 0:16:30.260
<v Speaker 2>I think those two things are manageable. I think we

0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.160
<v Speaker 2>can do those two things at the same time. 100%.

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:38.090
<v Speaker 1>And I honestly, I don't see anyone arguing that the

0:16:38.150 --> 0:16:42.370
<v Speaker 1>alternative to that, that we should compromise those things. And

0:16:42.530 --> 0:16:45.130
<v Speaker 1>the type of outreach the rest of this episode will

0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.820
<v Speaker 1>focus on and what prompted so much debate and discussion

0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 1>online last week has not been based on appealing to

0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:59.360
<v Speaker 1>or validating pseudoscientific beliefs or conspiracy theories on vaccines, but

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.710
<v Speaker 1>rather focused on some of those other Maha priorities that

0:17:03.750 --> 0:17:07.750
<v Speaker 1>may overlap with some concerns that you, the listener, may

0:17:07.850 --> 0:17:12.430
<v Speaker 1>have too. And if left-wing politicians actually address those concerns,

0:17:13.050 --> 0:17:17.760
<v Speaker 1>how that could perhaps undermine the monopoly Maha currently has

0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.780
<v Speaker 1>on those issues in our attention economy. And so next,

0:17:22.900 --> 0:17:27.540
<v Speaker 1>we will discuss and debate AOC's approach to this outreach

0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.670
<v Speaker 1>and and the pros or cons that may have. But first,

0:17:32.230 --> 0:17:45.899
<v Speaker 1>here's some ads. Now, I do want to go a

0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:50.140
<v Speaker 1>little bit more into AOC's kind of version of this outreach,

0:17:50.220 --> 0:17:53.070
<v Speaker 1>which has kind of sparked a lot of debate online

0:17:53.570 --> 0:17:56.590
<v Speaker 1>regarding this topic, is how she has approached this problem,

0:17:56.609 --> 0:17:59.840
<v Speaker 1>because she is seen the same things that I've been

0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.159
<v Speaker 1>kind of talking about, and she's decided to act on it.

0:18:03.100 --> 0:18:07.520
<v Speaker 1>About a week ago, Politico ran this story about AOC's

0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.179
<v Speaker 1>outreach to Maha, both influential figures within the movement, but

0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.780
<v Speaker 1>then also trying to put out content to appeal to

0:18:16.700 --> 0:18:20.680
<v Speaker 1>normies who see themselves as Maha. This reporting from Politico

0:18:20.700 --> 0:18:23.120
<v Speaker 1>seemed to be prompted by an interview on the Majority Report,

0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:28.020
<v Speaker 1>leftist best, between Emma Vigeland and AOC last July, where

0:18:28.260 --> 0:18:32.139
<v Speaker 1>she talked about environmental policy. AOC had recently been to

0:18:32.180 --> 0:18:35.580
<v Speaker 1>Tennessee to help campaign for Justin Pearson, and she said

0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.460
<v Speaker 1>that people there in Tennessee are, quote-unquote, pissed off about

0:18:38.500 --> 0:18:41.620
<v Speaker 1>data centers. Mm-hmm. And she talked about how her constituents

0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.720
<v Speaker 1>in the Bronx are a less ideologically driven electorate. They're

0:18:45.740 --> 0:18:49.010
<v Speaker 1>very working class and racially diverse, but they might not

0:18:49.050 --> 0:18:53.109
<v Speaker 1>have all the same concerns as a tree-hugging activist. Mm-hmm.

0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.379
<v Speaker 1>And so when she was first elected, she did a

0:18:55.420 --> 0:18:59.140
<v Speaker 1>quote unquote deep canvas of the community to learn how

0:18:59.260 --> 0:19:02.280
<v Speaker 1>to talk about climate issues in a way that isn't

0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.980
<v Speaker 1>just academic and theoretical. That actually points to day to

0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:07.659
<v Speaker 1>day issues in people's lives.

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.720
<v Speaker 3>So eight years ago, it was me doing teachings in

0:19:11.770 --> 0:19:16.590
<v Speaker 3>public housing, saying the lead in our water, the sky

0:19:16.609 --> 0:19:21.190
<v Speaker 3>high asthma rates that we deal with. That is environmental.

0:19:21.630 --> 0:19:28.080
<v Speaker 3>And this is directly contributed to with the gas infrastructure

0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.540
<v Speaker 3>that we have in our public housing that is leaching

0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:34.480
<v Speaker 3>into our air and all of the other environmental issues

0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 3>that are going on. And so with the data center fight,

0:19:37.740 --> 0:19:42.790
<v Speaker 3>I think that this is, it's the similar analog. People

0:19:42.850 --> 0:19:45.550
<v Speaker 3>are seeing how all of this is wrecking their health,

0:19:45.810 --> 0:19:51.350
<v Speaker 3>wrecking their communities, and It makes environmental issues... not academic,

0:19:51.490 --> 0:19:55.250
<v Speaker 3>but very real in people's everyday lives.

0:19:56.090 --> 0:19:58.929
<v Speaker 1>She later said, quote, We always have to be making

0:19:59.050 --> 0:20:02.210
<v Speaker 1>three arguments at the same time for any issue, a

0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.119
<v Speaker 1>moral argument, an economic argument and also a political argument.

0:20:06.619 --> 0:20:08.659
<v Speaker 1>And when we're able to argue for something in a

0:20:08.740 --> 0:20:12.260
<v Speaker 1>chorus of all those three, then we're able to build

0:20:12.300 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 1>a majoritarian coalition to actually win on them, unquote. This

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.670
<v Speaker 1>is something she's been animated about for the past two years,

0:20:21.130 --> 0:20:24.390
<v Speaker 1>is building these sorts of majoritarian coalitions to actually win

0:20:24.430 --> 0:20:26.930
<v Speaker 1>the things we believe in, not just endlessly scream about

0:20:26.950 --> 0:20:27.490
<v Speaker 1>them online.

0:20:27.910 --> 0:20:29.730
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, one thing in there that I think is really

0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.640
<v Speaker 2>astute is, and this goes for us in public health

0:20:32.700 --> 0:20:35.129
<v Speaker 2>as well, is that we... need to show people that

0:20:35.170 --> 0:20:38.090
<v Speaker 2>we are fighting for them, even for the people in

0:20:38.130 --> 0:20:40.710
<v Speaker 2>the Maha movement. Because we do still, no matter what,

0:20:41.530 --> 0:20:45.440
<v Speaker 2>they are our responsibility to take care of. And their

0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.380
<v Speaker 2>public health is also our responsibility. But something in there

0:20:48.420 --> 0:20:50.160
<v Speaker 2>that's interesting is we have to also show them that

0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.240
<v Speaker 2>we're not just fighting to preserve our precious institutions. It's

0:20:54.300 --> 0:20:57.170
<v Speaker 2>not just that we're fighting for the CDC and FDA

0:20:57.210 --> 0:21:01.030
<v Speaker 2>to retain some sense of normalcy, which, you know, we are.

0:21:01.510 --> 0:21:04.310
<v Speaker 2>but we need to show them that we're fighting for them.

0:21:04.570 --> 0:21:06.889
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's a really important thing that if

0:21:06.930 --> 0:21:09.530
<v Speaker 2>she can do that, I honestly don't follow her career

0:21:09.570 --> 0:21:11.600
<v Speaker 2>well enough to know her as a politician, but she

0:21:11.630 --> 0:21:13.459
<v Speaker 2>seems very smart and very savvy. So I don't see

0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.620
<v Speaker 2>why she couldn't. I feel like that is not, that's

0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:20.040
<v Speaker 2>a really reasonable approach. I think to, to, to doing

0:21:20.100 --> 0:21:22.699
<v Speaker 2>this is to try and connect with them on those levels.

0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.170
<v Speaker 1>And one thing she's, she's talked about trying to appeal

0:21:27.210 --> 0:21:32.389
<v Speaker 1>to Maha supporters through is, is not by capitulating to

0:21:32.410 --> 0:21:36.410
<v Speaker 1>their crazy stuff, but by pointing out to them how

0:21:36.470 --> 0:21:40.040
<v Speaker 1>the administration has completely turned their back on a whole

0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:45.300
<v Speaker 1>bunch of very base, popular policies that Maha also supports.

0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.500
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, but here's also where I get cynical,

0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.900
<v Speaker 2>because there's a part of me that's sort of like, yes,

0:21:51.940 --> 0:21:53.720
<v Speaker 2>we need to be doing this, and we absolutely need

0:21:53.740 --> 0:21:57.710
<v Speaker 2>to be showing people that not only are other people

0:21:58.290 --> 0:22:01.570
<v Speaker 2>that you're not voting for, apparently, fighting for these exact

0:22:01.650 --> 0:22:03.810
<v Speaker 2>principles you care about. But the people that you're now

0:22:03.869 --> 0:22:08.790
<v Speaker 2>aligned with are actively doing things to dismantle the regulations

0:22:08.869 --> 0:22:11.590
<v Speaker 2>that are the things you care about. And there's a

0:22:11.609 --> 0:22:14.250
<v Speaker 2>part of me that's just like, how can you not

0:22:14.490 --> 0:22:18.450
<v Speaker 2>know already? And that is something I have to deal with.

0:22:19.010 --> 0:22:21.450
<v Speaker 2>I have to sort of get past because we have to.

0:22:21.470 --> 0:22:24.470
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we just sort of have to grow past

0:22:24.490 --> 0:22:26.340
<v Speaker 2>that point. But I also don't see how it's not

0:22:26.540 --> 0:22:30.290
<v Speaker 2>apparently obvious to everyone at this point. that these people

0:22:30.609 --> 0:22:33.250
<v Speaker 2>are doing all the things you don't want. You think

0:22:33.290 --> 0:22:36.189
<v Speaker 2>the environment has gotten any better? Do you think that

0:22:36.230 --> 0:22:40.810
<v Speaker 2>there's been any meaningful like food safety or improvements? Yeah,

0:22:40.830 --> 0:22:42.710
<v Speaker 2>a couple of red dyes. Now you can get like

0:22:42.770 --> 0:22:46.070
<v Speaker 2>very pale Cheetos. But like people have to see past that,

0:22:46.130 --> 0:22:47.910
<v Speaker 2>I think. And I don't think they are.

0:22:47.930 --> 0:22:50.409
<v Speaker 1>I think in order to see past it, they have

0:22:50.430 --> 0:22:52.130
<v Speaker 1>to be presented with that argument.

0:22:52.340 --> 0:22:52.580
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:22:52.930 --> 0:22:55.670
<v Speaker 1>And if no one in their media orbit is doing that,

0:22:55.780 --> 0:22:59.139
<v Speaker 1>or if they feel like anyone who would make that argument,

0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:03.659
<v Speaker 1>is actually against them, is hostile, then they're not going

0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:05.070
<v Speaker 1>to listen to that person. And I think that's the

0:23:05.109 --> 0:23:07.410
<v Speaker 1>needle that she's trying to thread. Something she's talked about

0:23:07.450 --> 0:23:10.510
<v Speaker 1>specifically in this majority report interview is that if Dems

0:23:10.590 --> 0:23:12.869
<v Speaker 1>end up taking back the House in the midterms, they

0:23:12.910 --> 0:23:16.970
<v Speaker 1>have to go after, quote, not just corruption generally, but

0:23:17.050 --> 0:23:21.450
<v Speaker 1>corruption in the ways that undermine their base. And a

0:23:21.490 --> 0:23:23.520
<v Speaker 1>big factor that contributed to Trump's win in 2024 was

0:23:24.770 --> 0:23:27.369
<v Speaker 1>which was a blind spot to the Democrats and the

0:23:27.410 --> 0:23:31.430
<v Speaker 1>media analyzing the election results, was the Maha movement.

0:23:32.020 --> 0:23:34.820
<v Speaker 3>I actually think a lot of it was Maha. I

0:23:34.900 --> 0:23:40.340
<v Speaker 3>think that there was very little political analysis done on

0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:48.560
<v Speaker 3>how they really focused on women, on moms, on radicalizing

0:23:49.060 --> 0:23:53.199
<v Speaker 3>and doing a lot of persuasion in an electorate that

0:23:54.560 --> 0:24:01.280
<v Speaker 3>was much more swingy than, you know, to be frank,

0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:05.660
<v Speaker 3>white male voters. Those are generally broken more strongly towards Republicans.

0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.930
<v Speaker 3>But they really focused a lot on women. And they

0:24:09.990 --> 0:24:16.230
<v Speaker 3>have had probably the biggest betrayals with the glyphosate rulings,

0:24:16.350 --> 0:24:21.600
<v Speaker 3>with their complete throwing in with Big Ag and Monsanto

0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:26.489
<v Speaker 3>and Bayer. including coordinating with the Supreme Court and all

0:24:26.510 --> 0:24:30.419
<v Speaker 3>of that. And so I think their political vulnerabilities are in,

0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:32.760
<v Speaker 3>we want to focus on corruption in the ways that

0:24:32.859 --> 0:24:39.220
<v Speaker 3>undermine their promises. And we want to go after investigations

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:44.960
<v Speaker 3>that cut off the supply of their illicit money flows.

0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.250
<v Speaker 1>Adding on to that, like the food safety cuts at

0:24:48.290 --> 0:24:51.890
<v Speaker 1>the FDA, right? Leading to this massive food safety crisis

0:24:51.950 --> 0:24:55.040
<v Speaker 1>that people in like half the country are dealing with. Yeah.

0:24:55.220 --> 0:24:57.120
<v Speaker 1>It's a very easy thing to point to.

0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:57.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:24:57.720 --> 0:24:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:01.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think that's, it's great. We should, you're,

0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:04.379
<v Speaker 2>you're right. You're right. It is easy these days to

0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:08.330
<v Speaker 2>be in a echo chamber where all the people who

0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:11.210
<v Speaker 2>are getting this information are getting it solely from like

0:25:11.330 --> 0:25:15.350
<v Speaker 2>wellness influencers on Instagram or Tik TOK. They're solely getting

0:25:15.390 --> 0:25:18.850
<v Speaker 2>it from like their news station that they listened to

0:25:19.050 --> 0:25:21.780
<v Speaker 2>Fox or one news or wherever they're getting that stuff from. I,

0:25:22.410 --> 0:25:24.770
<v Speaker 2>I think it's great. And I do appreciate when someone

0:25:24.790 --> 0:25:28.520
<v Speaker 2>tries to get out into that and break through that bubble.

0:25:29.130 --> 0:25:32.760
<v Speaker 2>I actually did watch a clip of Fox talking about

0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:36.139
<v Speaker 2>AOC in this interview and the outreach. And there is

0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:38.160
<v Speaker 2>a little truth to it. You can kind of tell

0:25:38.180 --> 0:25:40.700
<v Speaker 2>that they are taking it seriously because I think they

0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:44.080
<v Speaker 2>know on some level that it is a smart strategy.

0:25:44.100 --> 0:25:48.370
<v Speaker 2>These are like easy touch points. I will say, though,

0:25:48.670 --> 0:25:51.750
<v Speaker 2>I do see a little danger in it. And again,

0:25:51.770 --> 0:25:53.570
<v Speaker 2>this doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, but we have

0:25:53.590 --> 0:25:57.209
<v Speaker 2>to discuss it. And there is a little bit of

0:25:57.310 --> 0:25:59.880
<v Speaker 2>real danger to doing this. And you're right. Very few

0:25:59.920 --> 0:26:03.940
<v Speaker 2>people are saying, hey, we need to capitulate totally on science.

0:26:03.980 --> 0:26:07.199
<v Speaker 2>But it doesn't require that much. What I see, what

0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.540
<v Speaker 2>really bothers me, is that we just aren't fighting and

0:26:10.580 --> 0:26:14.310
<v Speaker 2>pushing back on all this COVID revisionism that's been happening.

0:26:14.970 --> 0:26:19.400
<v Speaker 2>And it's because it's easier. But that's part of what

0:26:19.420 --> 0:26:21.860
<v Speaker 2>I think we need to be doing is while we

0:26:21.980 --> 0:26:26.280
<v Speaker 2>are making these outrows, while someone like AOC is focusing

0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:30.660
<v Speaker 2>on those exact issues, cost of healthcare, they also need

0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>to be very clear that the science and the vaccines

0:26:35.920 --> 0:26:39.990
<v Speaker 2>works and it's sound. And this COVID revisionism is hard

0:26:40.070 --> 0:26:42.760
<v Speaker 2>because I think a lot of people, doctors, I'm talking

0:26:42.780 --> 0:26:45.869
<v Speaker 2>about public health professionals, they just don't push back on

0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:48.409
<v Speaker 2>it because it's too hard to do. The people that

0:26:48.510 --> 0:26:51.170
<v Speaker 2>have come out with like, oh, see, we were all

0:26:51.250 --> 0:26:54.070
<v Speaker 2>lied to. Fauci lied to us. It's all lies. And

0:26:54.130 --> 0:26:57.210
<v Speaker 2>it's just this narrative that is so strong out there

0:26:57.250 --> 0:26:59.470
<v Speaker 2>that people just kind of step away from it. And

0:26:59.510 --> 0:27:01.389
<v Speaker 2>now they're like, hey, well, let's focus on things we

0:27:01.410 --> 0:27:04.389
<v Speaker 2>can focus on. I say, no, let's do that. But

0:27:04.410 --> 0:27:07.580
<v Speaker 2>let's also be very clear that those were not all problems.

0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:08.080
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

0:27:08.570 --> 0:27:13.929
<v Speaker 2>There wasn't completely perfect practice with Fauci and with the

0:27:13.970 --> 0:27:17.120
<v Speaker 2>rolling out of vaccines and talking about masks. Mistakes were made,

0:27:17.300 --> 0:27:21.820
<v Speaker 2>as oftentimes there is in a novel disease crisis. People

0:27:21.859 --> 0:27:23.840
<v Speaker 2>were moving as fast as they could with what information

0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:26.939
<v Speaker 2>they could, and things weren't perfect. But there is this

0:27:27.060 --> 0:27:31.270
<v Speaker 2>real asymmetry to what people will tolerate with Maha versus

0:27:31.310 --> 0:27:34.540
<v Speaker 2>what they tolerate from someone like Fauci. Maha makes mistakes

0:27:34.660 --> 0:27:36.660
<v Speaker 2>all the time, proven wrong all the time, and people

0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:38.840
<v Speaker 2>forgive them because, oh, they take big swings. They're at

0:27:38.859 --> 0:27:42.660
<v Speaker 2>least trying to help the American healthcare system. But then

0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:47.149
<v Speaker 2>if Fauci made a mistake talking about masks, then he

0:27:47.210 --> 0:27:51.350
<v Speaker 2>is the literal devil. So there is this asymmetry. We

0:27:51.410 --> 0:27:54.050
<v Speaker 2>have to be very vocal about that. We have to

0:27:54.190 --> 0:27:58.719
<v Speaker 2>push back on COVID revisionism the same exact time we

0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:00.969
<v Speaker 2>are doing this outreach. And I think that I think

0:28:01.030 --> 0:28:05.510
<v Speaker 2>it's great. There are young people in politics like Mamdani

0:28:06.109 --> 0:28:09.780
<v Speaker 2>and what I see with her that are getting really

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:12.920
<v Speaker 2>good about staying on target with the messaging. I think

0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:17.420
<v Speaker 2>that is... Message discipline. Yeah, message discipline. Yeah, I think

0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:19.200
<v Speaker 2>we're seeing more of it these days, which is nice.

0:28:19.859 --> 0:28:20.300
<v Speaker 2>I agree.

0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:22.420
<v Speaker 1>I agree with everything you say there. And I think

0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:25.590
<v Speaker 1>that all has to be done in conjunction with addressing

0:28:26.230 --> 0:28:30.459
<v Speaker 1>the base problems that cause people... To be compelled by

0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:33.560
<v Speaker 1>the crazier parts of Maha in the first place. Right.

0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:37.180
<v Speaker 1>And this is something that that Vigeland and AOC talked

0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:40.790
<v Speaker 1>about how like Maha charlatans. Yeah. Have been able to

0:28:40.810 --> 0:28:43.750
<v Speaker 1>like tap into some issues and then manipulate people.

0:28:43.850 --> 0:28:44.070
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:28:44.250 --> 0:28:47.410
<v Speaker 1>Based on their like anxieties around our totally broken health

0:28:47.430 --> 0:28:49.990
<v Speaker 1>care system. Right. They're able to tap into this notion

0:28:50.010 --> 0:28:52.390
<v Speaker 1>that everyone has that we're all being fucked over and

0:28:52.430 --> 0:28:54.920
<v Speaker 1>our health care system is broken. Yes. And so if

0:28:54.980 --> 0:28:58.060
<v Speaker 1>it's broken, maybe I'll look for solutions outside the healthcare system.

0:28:58.100 --> 0:29:01.300
<v Speaker 1>Maybe I'll listen to what people outside of this industry

0:29:01.340 --> 0:29:04.610
<v Speaker 1>are saying. And that can lead you down some very

0:29:04.690 --> 0:29:08.470
<v Speaker 1>dangerous roads, as we've been talking about. And this part

0:29:08.490 --> 0:29:13.280
<v Speaker 1>specifically is why AOC mentioned that she's actually been meeting

0:29:13.390 --> 0:29:18.610
<v Speaker 1>with some Maha advocates and activists. It's to understand the

0:29:18.710 --> 0:29:21.470
<v Speaker 1>issues that they're tapping into. And this is like the

0:29:21.570 --> 0:29:25.420
<v Speaker 1>clip that has, you know, sparked this whole discourse. And

0:29:25.460 --> 0:29:26.840
<v Speaker 1>I'll play it here for you in case you haven't

0:29:26.860 --> 0:29:27.720
<v Speaker 1>actually heard the whole thing.

0:29:28.260 --> 0:29:33.330
<v Speaker 3>A lot of them really don't believe that their fight

0:29:33.400 --> 0:29:38.490
<v Speaker 3>is partisan. And it's not in many ways. We do

0:29:38.630 --> 0:29:44.150
<v Speaker 3>have extraordinary corruption in our agricultural system, in our big

0:29:44.230 --> 0:29:49.730
<v Speaker 3>corporate system as well. And this is an area where

0:29:49.890 --> 0:29:53.110
<v Speaker 3>both parties in our entire political system has been compromised.

0:29:53.490 --> 0:29:57.590
<v Speaker 3>One of the first things I did was be part,

0:29:57.630 --> 0:29:59.110
<v Speaker 3>when I first got to the House, was be part

0:29:59.270 --> 0:30:04.170
<v Speaker 3>of these congressional investigations on PFAS dumping. And you have

0:30:04.380 --> 0:30:09.660
<v Speaker 3>companies like 3M and others that, you know, and this

0:30:09.700 --> 0:30:13.860
<v Speaker 3>goes back decades where you have a big company that

0:30:13.940 --> 0:30:17.200
<v Speaker 3>is doing manufacturing of some kind and they just dump

0:30:17.260 --> 0:30:21.520
<v Speaker 3>whatever cancerous byproduct that they have and poison communities around them.

0:30:21.740 --> 0:30:25.239
<v Speaker 3>And then they just pay off our political class to

0:30:25.300 --> 0:30:27.910
<v Speaker 3>ignore it. and to let it continue to happen or

0:30:27.990 --> 0:30:32.810
<v Speaker 3>to shield them legally, like with glyphosate, from everyday people

0:30:32.890 --> 0:30:33.730
<v Speaker 3>trying to get that back.

0:30:34.290 --> 0:30:35.790
<v Speaker 1>So like, that's an example of one of these like

0:30:35.810 --> 0:30:39.130
<v Speaker 1>very real issues that then has been used to like,

0:30:39.150 --> 0:30:43.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, on-ramp people into these much more like cultic milieu,

0:30:43.580 --> 0:30:47.500
<v Speaker 1>kind of like dangerous information spaces. But it is based

0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:49.040
<v Speaker 1>on like a real material issue, you know, same thing

0:30:49.060 --> 0:30:51.820
<v Speaker 1>with like cost of healthcare, right? If you look at

0:30:51.860 --> 0:30:55.400
<v Speaker 1>that KFFF poll that like breaks down now what does

0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:58.580
<v Speaker 1>maha people whether they're republican or democrats what do they

0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:02.580
<v Speaker 1>rank as they're not top issue among republican maha voters

0:31:03.100 --> 0:31:06.370
<v Speaker 1>the most frequently cited top issue was lowering the cost

0:31:06.380 --> 0:31:09.730
<v Speaker 1>of health care including prescription drugs yeah the second top

0:31:09.770 --> 0:31:13.150
<v Speaker 1>issue for again republicans not just democrats but for republican

0:31:13.170 --> 0:31:16.430
<v Speaker 1>maha voters was restricting the use of certain chemical additives

0:31:16.470 --> 0:31:18.750
<v Speaker 1>in the food supply right.

0:31:18.540 --> 0:31:21.620
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the PFAS thing is a very interesting discussion,

0:31:21.700 --> 0:31:25.420
<v Speaker 2>these forever chemicals. I've actually done two episodes on it

0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:28.690
<v Speaker 2>with authors of these really well-researched books.

0:31:28.550 --> 0:31:29.070
<v Speaker 4>On the matter.

0:31:29.220 --> 0:31:32.470
<v Speaker 2>And I still left that with more questions than I

0:31:32.510 --> 0:31:35.870
<v Speaker 2>had answers. And that requires a bit of a nuanced

0:31:35.910 --> 0:31:39.190
<v Speaker 2>conversation on what the real risks are to the general population.

0:31:39.810 --> 0:31:42.870
<v Speaker 2>But I will say this, the more you learn about

0:31:42.950 --> 0:31:45.570
<v Speaker 2>those companies, 3M, and she didn't mention it, but DuPont

0:31:45.950 --> 0:31:47.650
<v Speaker 2>is the other big one. There's a number of them.

0:31:48.020 --> 0:31:50.510
<v Speaker 2>The more you learn about them, the more you just

0:31:50.610 --> 0:31:53.830
<v Speaker 2>realize the real villain is... I mean, if anything was

0:31:53.850 --> 0:31:56.270
<v Speaker 2>going to radicalize me, it's that sort of stuff. You

0:31:56.290 --> 0:31:59.520
<v Speaker 2>learn about these corporations. They're truly awful.

0:31:59.780 --> 0:32:00.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:02.720
<v Speaker 2>Truly awful. As a quick aside, you've got to watch

0:32:02.780 --> 0:32:05.360
<v Speaker 2>the show, The Boys. I love it so much. And

0:32:05.380 --> 0:32:09.460
<v Speaker 2>the major reason is it's like a superhero movie. It's

0:32:09.530 --> 0:32:14.460
<v Speaker 2>a superhero show. But really... The villains are the corporations.

0:32:14.700 --> 0:32:17.060
<v Speaker 2>And that's really, I think such a, I think more

0:32:17.100 --> 0:32:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Americans should watch that show. I think it's super important. Anyways,

0:32:20.220 --> 0:32:22.500
<v Speaker 2>so you will learn about those things, but you learn

0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:25.620
<v Speaker 2>about the people behind those companies. And it's not the

0:32:25.660 --> 0:32:29.300
<v Speaker 2>people that Maha is fighting against right now. It's the

0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:32.180
<v Speaker 2>people that currently aligned with are the people that are

0:32:32.220 --> 0:32:35.400
<v Speaker 2>behind these corporations. That's the part that gets me. And

0:32:35.880 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how to educate them, but that is

0:32:38.140 --> 0:32:40.190
<v Speaker 2>going to be the important thing. If the cost of

0:32:40.210 --> 0:32:44.230
<v Speaker 2>health care and those regulations are important to them, then

0:32:44.290 --> 0:32:47.470
<v Speaker 2>I think we need to hammer that as much as

0:32:47.530 --> 0:32:52.120
<v Speaker 2>possible and get on those points. And people like, I

0:32:52.160 --> 0:32:53.920
<v Speaker 2>hate to say this, but people like me and other

0:32:54.380 --> 0:32:58.090
<v Speaker 2>health care people's, We need to get into those spaces

0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.130
<v Speaker 2>to have those conversations. But we're also not trained to

0:33:01.170 --> 0:33:04.310
<v Speaker 2>do so because we don't have like, if I go

0:33:04.470 --> 0:33:06.390
<v Speaker 2>on like a talk show with RFK Jr. and he

0:33:06.450 --> 0:33:08.870
<v Speaker 2>gish gallops me, I'm going to get pissed and I'm

0:33:08.890 --> 0:33:11.810
<v Speaker 2>going to like say something mean about his voice. And

0:33:11.830 --> 0:33:13.650
<v Speaker 2>then I'll feel like a jerk. Like, you know, like

0:33:13.870 --> 0:33:15.390
<v Speaker 2>we're not trained. Totally.

0:33:15.510 --> 0:33:18.910
<v Speaker 1>And like, to be completely clear, when I ask, should

0:33:19.230 --> 0:33:23.400
<v Speaker 1>we do outreach? I'm using we in this royal we sense.

0:33:23.540 --> 0:33:26.740
<v Speaker 1>I am not proposing that you or any of the

0:33:26.790 --> 0:33:30.850
<v Speaker 1>listeners actually need to go out and do this stuff yourself.

0:33:31.530 --> 0:33:36.970
<v Speaker 1>And I'm certainly not proposing that guesting on Maha podcasts

0:33:37.100 --> 0:33:41.160
<v Speaker 1>or debating on Jubilee to find your common ground is

0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:45.660
<v Speaker 1>the way that we should do outreach at all. Public

0:33:45.740 --> 0:33:48.810
<v Speaker 1>outreach can be done completely on your own terms, either

0:33:49.070 --> 0:33:53.610
<v Speaker 1>through your own social media accounts or your own health

0:33:53.630 --> 0:33:58.200
<v Speaker 1>podcast where you can talk about these issues that Maha

0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:01.500
<v Speaker 1>adjacent people claim to care about, but in an actually

0:34:01.600 --> 0:34:06.020
<v Speaker 1>scientifically backed way. According to KFF, more Maha voters say

0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:08.489
<v Speaker 1>that healthcare costs and food safety will have a major

0:34:08.590 --> 0:34:13.189
<v Speaker 1>impact on their vote than vaccine policy. Which is, I think,

0:34:13.270 --> 0:34:17.420
<v Speaker 1>not something your average blue sky user would be aware of.

0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:23.420
<v Speaker 1>There is this sort of idea of the average maha

0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:28.710
<v Speaker 1>person who's this eugenics crazed anti-vaxxer. And some of them

0:34:28.890 --> 0:34:32.590
<v Speaker 1>are that, yes. But there's also a lot of normie

0:34:32.650 --> 0:34:36.129
<v Speaker 1>moms who, for whatever reason, have had a bad experience

0:34:36.250 --> 0:34:37.610
<v Speaker 1>with the medical system.

0:34:37.630 --> 0:34:37.810
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:34:37.969 --> 0:34:39.340
<v Speaker 1>Or maybe they have too much time on their hands

0:34:39.469 --> 0:34:43.140
<v Speaker 1>and they're going into crazy, you know, internet rabbit holes.

0:34:44.260 --> 0:34:46.940
<v Speaker 1>Both are things that happen. But there is a lot

0:34:46.980 --> 0:34:49.940
<v Speaker 1>of like kind of normal moms who will fall into

0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:53.080
<v Speaker 1>this stuff because they do care about their children's health.

0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:55.320
<v Speaker 1>And they feel like the world that their kids are

0:34:55.340 --> 0:34:57.840
<v Speaker 1>being raised in is not one that's actually set up

0:34:57.880 --> 0:35:01.810
<v Speaker 1>to prioritize the health of their kids. And without people,

0:35:02.230 --> 0:35:07.230
<v Speaker 1>including politicians, speaking to that accurately and backed by real science,

0:35:07.930 --> 0:35:09.940
<v Speaker 1>it opens the door to people who will speak to

0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:13.160
<v Speaker 1>them about these concerns, but without that scientific background. And

0:35:13.540 --> 0:35:16.879
<v Speaker 1>it can funnel them into these places that are not

0:35:16.920 --> 0:35:19.279
<v Speaker 1>actually going to benefit the health of anyone as we're

0:35:19.320 --> 0:35:20.969
<v Speaker 1>now living in the national consequence of.

0:35:21.030 --> 0:35:23.569
<v Speaker 2>You're absolutely right. And I recognize that. And it is

0:35:23.630 --> 0:35:25.649
<v Speaker 2>something that I think is important. And that's a big

0:35:25.670 --> 0:35:30.320
<v Speaker 2>part of why I, a simple... country doctor decided to become,

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:33.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, active online and have a podcast and do

0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:35.420
<v Speaker 2>this sort of stuff because I felt it was a

0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:39.220
<v Speaker 2>good way to fight misinformation and to connect with people.

0:35:39.300 --> 0:35:42.570
<v Speaker 2>And it is very important that we do that. I

0:35:43.469 --> 0:35:47.089
<v Speaker 2>do think that's absolutely true. That's absolutely true. I mean,

0:35:47.330 --> 0:35:49.450
<v Speaker 2>it is hard. It's a challenge, a real challenge. But

0:35:50.250 --> 0:35:52.140
<v Speaker 2>we all can find our own ways to do it.

0:35:52.310 --> 0:35:56.969
<v Speaker 2>And God, I really, I hope that these outreaches have

0:35:57.070 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 2>some benefit, some positive benefit. I become a little bit,

0:36:02.300 --> 0:36:04.700
<v Speaker 2>and this is not mean by my nature, I'm an optimist,

0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:08.280
<v Speaker 2>but I become a little bit pessimistic about the ability

0:36:08.420 --> 0:36:11.629
<v Speaker 2>to win back some of these people with at least

0:36:11.650 --> 0:36:16.310
<v Speaker 2>the current democratic leadership. Oh, I mean, certainly, yes. I'm

0:36:16.390 --> 0:36:20.430
<v Speaker 2>much more hopeful that with the younger people that are

0:36:20.469 --> 0:36:23.670
<v Speaker 2>much more savvy or net savvy and know how to

0:36:23.730 --> 0:36:25.810
<v Speaker 2>speak to people, I'm much more hopeful that they will

0:36:25.890 --> 0:36:30.910
<v Speaker 2>be able to connect broadly on some major level in

0:36:30.950 --> 0:36:33.930
<v Speaker 2>a way that Chuck Schumer never could or care to.

0:36:34.430 --> 0:36:37.250
<v Speaker 2>I should also say something else. I also recognize fully

0:36:37.860 --> 0:36:42.279
<v Speaker 2>that there are real problems with our healthcare system. I

0:36:42.360 --> 0:36:45.420
<v Speaker 2>am not here to say that like, hey, our medical

0:36:45.460 --> 0:36:47.840
<v Speaker 2>healthcare system is awesome in this country. Why would people

0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:50.839
<v Speaker 2>be dissatisfied? No, people, you're totally right. There is real

0:36:50.920 --> 0:36:54.630
<v Speaker 2>dissatisfaction with our healthcare, the cost of it, the delivery

0:36:54.690 --> 0:36:57.089
<v Speaker 2>of it, the access of it. all these things are real.

0:36:57.550 --> 0:37:01.230
<v Speaker 2>And there are issues that, you know, we have to

0:37:01.270 --> 0:37:03.890
<v Speaker 2>show people that we're championing, or we're trying to champion

0:37:03.930 --> 0:37:06.290
<v Speaker 2>because there are real problems. And that's why it's working.

0:37:06.650 --> 0:37:08.509
<v Speaker 2>It's people are easy. I mean, you're right, there's some

0:37:08.530 --> 0:37:12.339
<v Speaker 2>degree of just bored people like getting down internet, like

0:37:12.420 --> 0:37:16.700
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy theories about this stuff. But there's real issues that

0:37:16.780 --> 0:37:21.060
<v Speaker 2>are plaguing our public health care that we need to address.

0:37:21.500 --> 0:37:23.359
<v Speaker 2>And we need to to show that we are not...

0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:25.180
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's so funny. I get accused of being

0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:27.400
<v Speaker 2>like a pharma shill all the time because I'm like

0:37:27.660 --> 0:37:31.319
<v Speaker 2>for vaccines. And I'm like, I hate pharma companies more

0:37:31.340 --> 0:37:33.700
<v Speaker 2>than you. I guarantee it. And I have good reason to.

0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:34.020
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:35.940
<v Speaker 2>Because I see what they do to patients. And I

0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:39.219
<v Speaker 2>see what they do to the cost of healthcare. So

0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:43.509
<v Speaker 2>we have to show people that we are on their side.

0:37:43.570 --> 0:37:45.090
<v Speaker 2>And this is the right place to start. Yeah.

0:37:45.630 --> 0:37:48.390
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. And that's also something AOC talked about on the

0:37:48.450 --> 0:37:53.100
<v Speaker 1>majority report as a reason why people are getting pulled

0:37:53.180 --> 0:37:53.980
<v Speaker 1>into Maha.

0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:57.640
<v Speaker 3>My mom's side of the family is evangelical. Right. And

0:37:58.820 --> 0:38:02.830
<v Speaker 3>I see how all of these issues that have been

0:38:02.890 --> 0:38:07.150
<v Speaker 3>at their surface level expressed as right wing are actually

0:38:07.270 --> 0:38:11.910
<v Speaker 3>very much just the anxieties that we have as working

0:38:12.050 --> 0:38:17.419
<v Speaker 3>people not being able to afford health care. And so

0:38:17.540 --> 0:38:20.160
<v Speaker 3>it's also like, how do I stop being sick and

0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:23.620
<v Speaker 3>how do I prevent being sick by limiting my exposure

0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:27.480
<v Speaker 3>to things that I think are toxic? And then, which

0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:29.560
<v Speaker 3>there are things that are actually toxic and things that

0:38:29.620 --> 0:38:33.279
<v Speaker 3>aren't actually toxic that get taken advantage of. And then

0:38:33.340 --> 0:38:36.560
<v Speaker 3>also when I do get sick and I can't afford medicine,

0:38:37.300 --> 0:38:43.319
<v Speaker 3>what are the holistic and low cost alternatives that I

0:38:43.390 --> 0:38:46.170
<v Speaker 3>can turn to because I know that I can't afford

0:38:46.210 --> 0:38:46.970
<v Speaker 3>to see a doctor.

0:38:47.850 --> 0:38:51.820
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, those were, AOC's comments on the majority report,

0:38:51.880 --> 0:38:55.480
<v Speaker 1>which then served as the basis for a political piece

0:38:55.820 --> 0:39:00.480
<v Speaker 1>earlier this month, digging into her quote-unquote Maha outreach and

0:39:00.700 --> 0:39:05.050
<v Speaker 1>the varieties of issues that she was discussing with Maha advocates.

0:39:05.930 --> 0:39:10.129
<v Speaker 1>This newsletter also clarified the sequence of events in terms

0:39:10.170 --> 0:39:14.509
<v Speaker 1>of why she started this outreach when she did. And

0:39:14.690 --> 0:39:18.280
<v Speaker 1>she started this effort last spring ahead of some hearings

0:39:18.300 --> 0:39:24.360
<v Speaker 1>that with the EPA head Lee Zeldin. And the Politico

0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:28.330
<v Speaker 1>reporting does note that AOC, quote, still has significant differences

0:39:28.390 --> 0:39:32.969
<v Speaker 1>with the broader Maha movement. including its vaccine skepticism, but

0:39:33.090 --> 0:39:36.910
<v Speaker 1>she sees overlap on things like pesticides, corporate power, and

0:39:37.090 --> 0:39:40.049
<v Speaker 1>access to safe food, according to a person close to AOC, unquote.

0:39:40.530 --> 0:39:45.799
<v Speaker 1>So in spring, her office began specifically working around the

0:39:45.900 --> 0:39:50.010
<v Speaker 1>issue of glyphosate and pesticides and and ended up contacting

0:39:50.090 --> 0:39:56.850
<v Speaker 1>some MAHA organizers who together helped FOIA some emails and correspondence,

0:39:57.450 --> 0:40:03.110
<v Speaker 1>which then influenced how AOC addressed and questioned EPA Administrator

0:40:03.370 --> 0:40:06.770
<v Speaker 1>Lee Zeldin. And this produced a lot of viral clips.

0:40:07.530 --> 0:40:10.700
<v Speaker 5>In fact, tens of thousands of lawsuits in the United States,

0:40:11.300 --> 0:40:16.280
<v Speaker 5>many issued by farmers with high exposure, have been filed

0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:19.819
<v Speaker 5>against Bayer and for failing to warn them about the

0:40:19.860 --> 0:40:27.610
<v Speaker 5>cancer risk of exposure. Now, interestingly, Administrator Zeldin, on February

0:40:27.890 --> 0:40:32.210
<v Speaker 5>18th of this year, President Trump released an executive order

0:40:32.690 --> 0:40:36.120
<v Speaker 5>to increase the production of glyphosate in the United States, correct?

0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:37.839
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:40:38.780 --> 0:40:42.300
<v Speaker 5>And not only did that executive order call to increase

0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:47.200
<v Speaker 5>the production of glyphosate, it also called for for legal

0:40:47.460 --> 0:40:52.600
<v Speaker 5>immunity for Bayer from the tens of thousands of Americans

0:40:53.040 --> 0:40:57.319
<v Speaker 5>who are seeking justice in court for their toxic exposure.

0:40:58.219 --> 0:41:01.410
<v Speaker 1>So a lot of people in the Maha world saw

0:41:01.510 --> 0:41:05.890
<v Speaker 1>clips from this hearing and found them compelling and then thought,

0:41:06.450 --> 0:41:10.730
<v Speaker 1>maybe AOC isn't all that bad. Maybe I could listen

0:41:10.770 --> 0:41:12.910
<v Speaker 1>to some of the stuff that she's talking about. I

0:41:12.930 --> 0:41:16.290
<v Speaker 1>think that is the crux of why she is doing this.

0:41:16.830 --> 0:41:20.770
<v Speaker 1>She can address some of these issues around glyphosate, around

0:41:21.210 --> 0:41:25.529
<v Speaker 1>specifically these internal EPA emails showing that the pharmaceutical company

0:41:25.610 --> 0:41:29.100
<v Speaker 1>Bayer was in communication with the EPA about the then

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:34.080
<v Speaker 1>upcoming Supreme Court case regarding the carcinogenic weed killer Roundup.

0:41:35.420 --> 0:41:40.300
<v Speaker 1>And that Bayer sought information regarding EPA's regulatory review of Roundup,

0:41:41.010 --> 0:41:44.379
<v Speaker 1>And to quote this internal email, quote, buyer will provide

0:41:44.390 --> 0:41:49.060
<v Speaker 1>a small thanks for updating the glyphosate webpage from the

0:41:49.180 --> 0:41:54.839
<v Speaker 1>EPA and work on Maha, unquote. Insane, an insane thing.

0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:59.020
<v Speaker 5>This glyphosate update that they're referring to seems to be

0:41:59.200 --> 0:42:03.500
<v Speaker 5>correlated to the EPA agency withdrawing its support for California's

0:42:03.620 --> 0:42:07.220
<v Speaker 5>cancer warning on glyphosate. Now, this is important because five

0:42:07.260 --> 0:42:10.860
<v Speaker 5>days after the EPO this year, Bayer filed their opening

0:42:10.960 --> 0:42:16.040
<v Speaker 5>brief to the Supreme Court, citing Trump's executive order and

0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:19.510
<v Speaker 5>hinging their case on the EPA's warnings or lack thereof

0:42:19.690 --> 0:42:24.690
<v Speaker 5>of glyphosate. So we have internal emails from your agency

0:42:25.070 --> 0:42:29.160
<v Speaker 5>saying that Bayer wanted to thank you. and your agency

0:42:29.570 --> 0:42:35.730
<v Speaker 5>for removing support for California's warning because their case before

0:42:35.750 --> 0:42:40.530
<v Speaker 5>the Supreme Court right now hinges on you not warning

0:42:40.670 --> 0:42:43.790
<v Speaker 5>the American people and withdrawing your support on glyphosate. Do

0:42:43.830 --> 0:42:47.330
<v Speaker 5>you understand the conflict of interest that is before the

0:42:47.370 --> 0:42:48.830
<v Speaker 5>American people right now, Mr.

0:42:48.870 --> 0:42:49.370
<v Speaker 2>Secretary?

0:42:49.390 --> 0:42:49.750
<v Speaker 4>I understand.

0:42:49.770 --> 0:42:52.029
<v Speaker 2>The gentlelady's time has... Thank you.

0:42:52.570 --> 0:42:56.600
<v Speaker 1>So after this sort of viral moment... a few other

0:42:56.680 --> 0:42:59.660
<v Speaker 1>people in the MAHA world started to get into communication

0:42:59.940 --> 0:43:04.399
<v Speaker 1>with AOC to address issues around pesticides and chemicals, which

0:43:04.580 --> 0:43:09.180
<v Speaker 1>someone close to this situation told Politico were the issues that, quote,

0:43:09.540 --> 0:43:12.800
<v Speaker 1>the traditional left has cared about for decades, unquote.

0:43:13.120 --> 0:43:15.049
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, for your listeners also, I should probably mention,

0:43:15.090 --> 0:43:18.530
<v Speaker 2>so in case you're wondering, glyphosate is the weed killer

0:43:18.670 --> 0:43:21.529
<v Speaker 2>in Roundup. And there is this big question about whether

0:43:21.550 --> 0:43:24.239
<v Speaker 2>or not it can cause cancer. And and this is

0:43:24.260 --> 0:43:26.520
<v Speaker 2>something that I'm glad that she's addressing this. I think

0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:29.640
<v Speaker 2>this is low hanging fruit and she should, and this

0:43:29.680 --> 0:43:30.940
<v Speaker 2>is the kind of thing that we can all agree on.

0:43:30.980 --> 0:43:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Like if there's a chance of it, why not try

0:43:33.140 --> 0:43:35.160
<v Speaker 2>to get rid of it? But it also, I think

0:43:35.300 --> 0:43:38.660
<v Speaker 2>we should be careful because these can be just like PFAS,

0:43:39.070 --> 0:43:43.830
<v Speaker 2>these gateways to greater conspiracy theories. And we should be

0:43:44.250 --> 0:43:46.190
<v Speaker 2>careful about what we do and do not know. We

0:43:46.230 --> 0:43:49.219
<v Speaker 2>should say that like, The honest answer is, you know,

0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:50.660
<v Speaker 2>we don't know how much of a risk it is

0:43:50.739 --> 0:43:53.680
<v Speaker 2>for cancer. Probably a very small risk for people who

0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:56.590
<v Speaker 2>use it rarely. And then a more moderate risk of

0:43:56.620 --> 0:43:59.730
<v Speaker 2>developing non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, which is the thing that seems to

0:43:59.750 --> 0:44:03.210
<v Speaker 2>be connected to it in people who use it a lot. So, yeah,

0:44:03.330 --> 0:44:05.590
<v Speaker 2>it's bad. You know, if there's any way we can

0:44:05.650 --> 0:44:08.410
<v Speaker 2>make sure it's not around and we need to follow

0:44:08.469 --> 0:44:11.270
<v Speaker 2>it and find out how it slipped through the cracks

0:44:11.350 --> 0:44:14.009
<v Speaker 2>of testing. And those are all questions that we need

0:44:14.050 --> 0:44:19.510
<v Speaker 2>to address. But I also would say let's also caution

0:44:19.810 --> 0:44:22.770
<v Speaker 2>making that our new boogeyman. I would love for the

0:44:22.790 --> 0:44:26.489
<v Speaker 2>people in charge to be adults about this stuff and

0:44:26.530 --> 0:44:29.130
<v Speaker 2>to talk about these things like what we do actually

0:44:29.170 --> 0:44:33.310
<v Speaker 2>know and don't know and not to score points based

0:44:33.390 --> 0:44:35.750
<v Speaker 2>on just the fact that we want it gone. We should.

0:44:35.810 --> 0:44:38.250
<v Speaker 2>It should be gone. But, I mean, like, again, it's

0:44:38.310 --> 0:44:40.430
<v Speaker 2>one of these, like, we have a lot of fish

0:44:40.469 --> 0:44:43.860
<v Speaker 2>to fry and And if this is what it takes

0:44:43.900 --> 0:44:47.420
<v Speaker 2>to get Maha thinking that she's cool, great. But I

0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:52.120
<v Speaker 2>also have much bigger health-related issues that I would love

0:44:52.219 --> 0:44:53.279
<v Speaker 2>for her to be focused on.

0:44:53.780 --> 0:44:55.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like kind of one kernel at a time.

0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:58.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this became an issue because of Trump's executive

0:44:58.380 --> 0:45:04.509
<v Speaker 1>orders trying to give companies complete immunity for any possible

0:45:04.670 --> 0:45:08.390
<v Speaker 1>health risks as a result of people using these products.

0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:10.379
<v Speaker 1>And so, you know, a part of politics is both

0:45:10.420 --> 0:45:14.180
<v Speaker 1>being proactive, but then it's also responding to things happening

0:45:14.200 --> 0:45:17.319
<v Speaker 1>in the world. And this Supreme Court case was one

0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:21.160
<v Speaker 1>such instance. I'm just saying it's good to score some

0:45:21.260 --> 0:45:24.580
<v Speaker 1>easy points. These are layups talking about stuff like this.

0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:25.900
<v Speaker 1>We should take care of it.

0:45:26.540 --> 0:45:29.399
<v Speaker 2>But I also don't want it to stop there. Sure.

0:45:29.500 --> 0:45:31.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't want this to be like where the limit

0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:33.660
<v Speaker 2>of where our public health discussion ends, you know.

0:45:44.980 --> 0:45:49.400
<v Speaker 1>Something else we learned in this Politico newsletter is exactly

0:45:49.420 --> 0:45:53.259
<v Speaker 1>who some of these MAHA advocates are that AOC has

0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:57.870
<v Speaker 1>been meeting with. According to Politico, in late July, AOC

0:45:57.890 --> 0:46:03.029
<v Speaker 1>met with Zen Honeycott of Moms Across America, Joe Maxwell

0:46:03.090 --> 0:46:09.000
<v Speaker 1>of Farm Action, and government consultant Emily Steinbridge. Moms Across

0:46:09.060 --> 0:46:13.870
<v Speaker 1>America is a very influential kind of MAHA adjacent organization,

0:46:13.930 --> 0:46:18.109
<v Speaker 1>especially on Facebook. The main four petitions, hosted on the

0:46:18.190 --> 0:46:23.799
<v Speaker 1>Moms Across America website currently, relate to data centers, glyphosate,

0:46:23.950 --> 0:46:29.259
<v Speaker 1>and pesticide manufacturers. There's also pages on independent food testing,

0:46:29.540 --> 0:46:32.919
<v Speaker 1>tox screenings. A whole section of the website is actually

0:46:32.980 --> 0:46:36.219
<v Speaker 1>on data centers. But there are also web pages on

0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:42.130
<v Speaker 1>things like genetically engineered food, EMF wireless radiations, and a

0:46:42.150 --> 0:46:47.170
<v Speaker 1>page promoting vaccine skepticism. The founder, Zen Honeycutt, believes that

0:46:47.730 --> 0:46:52.270
<v Speaker 1>autism can be partially caused by childhood vaccines, and claims

0:46:52.310 --> 0:46:57.600
<v Speaker 1>that an organic diet helped her son's autism symptoms. Honeycutt

0:46:57.680 --> 0:47:01.340
<v Speaker 1>told Politico that her meeting with AOC was a quote-unquote

0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:07.879
<v Speaker 1>thorough conversation touching on pesticides, PFAS, and environmental health. She's

0:47:07.940 --> 0:47:11.920
<v Speaker 1>quoted in the newsletter saying, quote, I don't agree with socialism,

0:47:12.300 --> 0:47:16.319
<v Speaker 1>and most moms across America also don't. But we do

0:47:16.380 --> 0:47:20.810
<v Speaker 1>believe in corporate responsibility. Even if someone isn't a socialism

0:47:20.969 --> 0:47:23.790
<v Speaker 1>or a conservative, I think we should agree that everyone

0:47:23.830 --> 0:47:28.470
<v Speaker 1>should have access to non-toxic food, unquote. There has also

0:47:28.530 --> 0:47:33.640
<v Speaker 1>been some recognition among certain MAHA figures that a connection

0:47:34.100 --> 0:47:39.759
<v Speaker 1>with AOC could hurt their own access to the Trump administration.

0:47:40.310 --> 0:47:46.359
<v Speaker 1>Vani Hari, the food babe influencer, had quote-unquote trepidations about

0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:50.600
<v Speaker 1>meeting with AOC because she quote, wants access to the

0:47:50.660 --> 0:47:56.049
<v Speaker 1>administration still, according to someone familiar with the matter. Considering

0:47:56.239 --> 0:48:00.910
<v Speaker 1>the variety of beliefs, many harmful, that some of these

0:48:01.070 --> 0:48:05.570
<v Speaker 1>Maha influencers have, I do want to mention a variety

0:48:05.590 --> 0:48:09.649
<v Speaker 1>of the risks of talking to these people. And again,

0:48:09.710 --> 0:48:12.969
<v Speaker 1>to reiterate, I am not arguing that you, the listener,

0:48:13.489 --> 0:48:16.930
<v Speaker 1>do this. I'm not calling on you to debate your

0:48:17.140 --> 0:48:21.380
<v Speaker 1>unpleasant family member about vaccines at Thanksgiving. I'm not saying

0:48:21.400 --> 0:48:24.560
<v Speaker 1>that you have to go on Maha podcasts to argue

0:48:24.620 --> 0:48:28.140
<v Speaker 1>these things. But there are people in positions of power

0:48:28.540 --> 0:48:32.339
<v Speaker 1>whose job it is to navigate politics in this way.

0:48:32.920 --> 0:48:36.080
<v Speaker 1>And there are some real risks from doing that. The

0:48:36.120 --> 0:48:40.520
<v Speaker 1>main one being... capitulating on your values and beliefs for

0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:45.420
<v Speaker 1>political benefit, right? Compromising with people, compromising with, in some cases,

0:48:46.300 --> 0:48:50.299
<v Speaker 1>eugenicists in Maha in hopes of winning some votes. And

0:48:50.380 --> 0:48:53.560
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe that's what AOC is doing. But for

0:48:53.640 --> 0:48:57.020
<v Speaker 1>people who are extremely skeptical of AOC's political motivations, I

0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:00.339
<v Speaker 1>can see how that would be a concern. Another risk

0:49:00.380 --> 0:49:04.140
<v Speaker 1>factor is that in your communications with these people, you

0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:08.850
<v Speaker 1>end up platforming people with genuinely harmful beliefs, right? Stuff

0:49:08.870 --> 0:49:11.980
<v Speaker 1>that causes active harm to the public health through kids

0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:14.980
<v Speaker 1>not being vaccinated. And by extension, if you end up

0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:18.830
<v Speaker 1>promoting some of the justifications for those anti-vax beliefs, which

0:49:18.890 --> 0:49:23.120
<v Speaker 1>are very dehumanizing against people with autism, sometimes with this

0:49:23.180 --> 0:49:29.000
<v Speaker 1>soft eugenics component, that is a real possible danger of

0:49:29.100 --> 0:49:33.359
<v Speaker 1>talking with influential people in this world. There's also this

0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:38.120
<v Speaker 1>factor that just by talking with them you might end

0:49:38.200 --> 0:49:42.040
<v Speaker 1>up like legitimizing some of their crazy beliefs, right? This

0:49:42.100 --> 0:49:45.300
<v Speaker 1>is an idea that people have. My counter to that

0:49:45.700 --> 0:49:49.880
<v Speaker 1>is that they don't need to be further legitimized. Donald

0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:53.279
<v Speaker 1>Trump is the president. The Republicans control the whole of

0:49:53.300 --> 0:49:57.120
<v Speaker 1>the federal government. RFK Jr. runs HHS. They have received

0:49:57.340 --> 0:50:01.540
<v Speaker 1>institutional legitimation like already. Yeah. Right.

0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:04.359
<v Speaker 2>You're right. It's not about you can't platform these people.

0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:07.460
<v Speaker 2>These people are the platform at this point. And AOC's

0:50:07.540 --> 0:50:11.469
<v Speaker 2>not platforming these people. She isn't telling her followers or

0:50:11.550 --> 0:50:15.090
<v Speaker 2>supporters to seek out these Baja activists. She isn't live

0:50:15.110 --> 0:50:20.209
<v Speaker 2>streaming with them. She's doing outreach in private to pull

0:50:20.270 --> 0:50:24.570
<v Speaker 2>people from their side, maybe back towards reality. And I

0:50:24.610 --> 0:50:27.089
<v Speaker 2>think it's working. I think it's actually working for her,

0:50:27.170 --> 0:50:29.049
<v Speaker 2>at least. I mean, assuming that this is going to

0:50:29.090 --> 0:50:32.480
<v Speaker 2>be for a potential presidential run, or at least for

0:50:32.580 --> 0:50:36.259
<v Speaker 2>some sort of political maneuvering, for whatever reason she's doing it,

0:50:36.890 --> 0:50:40.009
<v Speaker 2>I think as long as she's able to collaborate with

0:50:40.070 --> 0:50:46.430
<v Speaker 2>clear boundaries, addressing the legitimate concerns like the PFAS, pesticide exposures,

0:50:46.550 --> 0:50:51.350
<v Speaker 2>cost of healthcare, while really clearly addressing the scientifically unsupported

0:50:51.390 --> 0:50:54.890
<v Speaker 2>claims like these These chronic disease things, the soft eugenics,

0:50:55.290 --> 0:50:59.320
<v Speaker 2>the vaccine narratives. I think that's important. But what's important

0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:03.120
<v Speaker 2>to me, though, those have to be vocally addressed. Because

0:51:03.719 --> 0:51:06.379
<v Speaker 2>like I was saying before, with all these people that

0:51:06.460 --> 0:51:10.489
<v Speaker 2>have been pushing these COVID revisionist thoughts, like just letting

0:51:10.530 --> 0:51:14.950
<v Speaker 2>those people say those things without responding, it does build

0:51:15.050 --> 0:51:19.930
<v Speaker 2>this narrative overall that COVID vaccines were a mistake and

0:51:19.950 --> 0:51:24.279
<v Speaker 2>that they're dangerous, etc., We have to not just, you know,

0:51:24.360 --> 0:51:27.379
<v Speaker 2>focus on things that we agree on, but she has

0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:29.989
<v Speaker 2>to clearly set boundaries and say that the things we

0:51:30.030 --> 0:51:32.130
<v Speaker 2>did were really good. The one good thing that Trump

0:51:32.530 --> 0:51:35.569
<v Speaker 2>ever is connected to really in my perspective is is

0:51:35.660 --> 0:51:41.650
<v Speaker 2>Operation Warp Speed, the worst name for a vaccine project

0:51:42.690 --> 0:51:45.029
<v Speaker 2>that you could have made. But still, you know, we

0:51:45.370 --> 0:51:48.190
<v Speaker 2>have to be really clear about those two things. And

0:51:48.370 --> 0:51:51.089
<v Speaker 2>I think if she can do that, that's great. And

0:51:51.250 --> 0:51:54.150
<v Speaker 2>people should take the lead. And I'm going to get

0:51:54.210 --> 0:51:56.029
<v Speaker 2>hurt for saying some of this, because I know a

0:51:56.130 --> 0:51:59.610
<v Speaker 2>lot of my, you know, doctor friends, public health friends

0:51:59.690 --> 0:52:03.879
<v Speaker 2>who have a much different perspective about MAHA and don't

0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:07.010
<v Speaker 2>feel there's really any benefit to talking with them for

0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:10.089
<v Speaker 2>all the reasons that you mentioned. Maybe I'll get there.

0:52:10.150 --> 0:52:12.109
<v Speaker 2>I'm not there right now. I'm just not. I feel

0:52:12.130 --> 0:52:13.430
<v Speaker 2>like we need to be able to connect.

0:52:13.850 --> 0:52:16.049
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, I would like to kind of Touch

0:52:16.110 --> 0:52:18.190
<v Speaker 1>on that for a sec, because there is this idea

0:52:18.770 --> 0:52:23.359
<v Speaker 1>that you can maybe ignore the problem away. That instead

0:52:23.800 --> 0:52:25.859
<v Speaker 1>of trying to talk to these people, we just want

0:52:25.900 --> 0:52:28.379
<v Speaker 1>them to go away, so you should not acknowledge them.

0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:32.120
<v Speaker 1>You should just pretend they aren't there until they go away.

0:52:33.140 --> 0:52:35.720
<v Speaker 1>How well has that strategy worked for us thus far?

0:52:35.739 --> 0:52:39.490
<v Speaker 2>Has it worked that well? Has it worked that well?

0:52:39.510 --> 0:52:40.610
<v Speaker 2>It has.

0:52:40.760 --> 0:52:44.560
<v Speaker 1>And to me, this idea that you can just... not

0:52:44.700 --> 0:52:47.900
<v Speaker 1>acknowledge this whole problem is just like a rejection of

0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:51.000
<v Speaker 1>politics to me. Like that is just rejecting what politics is.

0:52:51.010 --> 0:52:53.330
<v Speaker 1>And again, I'm not saying that you have to do this,

0:52:54.210 --> 0:52:57.710
<v Speaker 1>but to say that our solution is going to be

0:52:58.090 --> 0:53:01.980
<v Speaker 1>just making fun of them until they go away. To me,

0:53:02.040 --> 0:53:06.420
<v Speaker 1>that feels like a kind of liberal bourgeois position from

0:53:06.480 --> 0:53:10.489
<v Speaker 1>someone with enough privilege to just reject the real politics

0:53:10.989 --> 0:53:14.470
<v Speaker 1>through pretending that a very big group of people simply

0:53:14.570 --> 0:53:19.150
<v Speaker 1>do not exist. And I don't think that's how we're

0:53:19.170 --> 0:53:21.370
<v Speaker 1>going to get ourselves out of this problem. And when

0:53:21.410 --> 0:53:25.350
<v Speaker 1>I said this online, someone said, well, yeah, but I mean,

0:53:25.370 --> 0:53:28.250
<v Speaker 1>if you're going to talk about real politics, real politics

0:53:28.290 --> 0:53:30.390
<v Speaker 1>is when I asked my dad to see a doctor

0:53:30.410 --> 0:53:32.990
<v Speaker 1>about his stomach problems and he said he's not going to,

0:53:33.030 --> 0:53:35.500
<v Speaker 1>and he's just going to use cod liver oil. Yeah.

0:53:35.620 --> 0:53:37.739
<v Speaker 2>The one trick that I don't want you to know.

0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:40.170
<v Speaker 2>I personally don't want you to know that folks. It's

0:53:40.190 --> 0:53:41.270
<v Speaker 2>going to put me out of business.

0:53:41.530 --> 0:53:44.009
<v Speaker 1>And like, that's a huge problem. Like that is a

0:53:44.090 --> 0:53:47.509
<v Speaker 1>huge problem that, that someone's dad said that, but that

0:53:47.630 --> 0:53:50.890
<v Speaker 1>problem won't be solved by ignoring the problem.

0:53:51.070 --> 0:53:51.890
<v Speaker 2>Correct. Right.

0:53:51.989 --> 0:53:54.590
<v Speaker 1>This, this is, this is the end point of what

0:53:54.610 --> 0:53:57.930
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to do is reach people who, who have

0:53:57.969 --> 0:54:00.530
<v Speaker 1>this reaction. And that's going to, that's going to require

0:54:01.030 --> 0:54:05.420
<v Speaker 1>massive healthcare reform and building public trust in, state capacity

0:54:05.560 --> 0:54:09.080
<v Speaker 1>and in our ability to actually help people. And this

0:54:09.140 --> 0:54:10.879
<v Speaker 1>is going to be a long-term project. I'm not saying

0:54:10.900 --> 0:54:13.660
<v Speaker 1>this is going to be fixed by 2028, but towards

0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:17.120
<v Speaker 1>the end of this Politico article, there's a really interesting quote. Quote,

0:54:17.660 --> 0:54:19.540
<v Speaker 1>AOC's outreach comes at a moment when the Maha vote

0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:21.239
<v Speaker 1>itself appears to be up for grabs ahead of the

0:54:21.440 --> 0:54:25.509
<v Speaker 1>28th presidential election amid ongoing frustrations with the Trump administration.

0:54:26.210 --> 0:54:30.130
<v Speaker 1>Alex Clark, a Turning Point USA personality and the host

0:54:30.210 --> 0:54:35.229
<v Speaker 1>of the health and wellness podcast, Culture Apothecary, told Politico she's, quote,

0:54:35.550 --> 0:54:39.230
<v Speaker 1>certainly concerned about the possibility of the influential bloc of

0:54:39.270 --> 0:54:43.509
<v Speaker 1>voters slipping away. Clark said she's already seeing interest in

0:54:43.650 --> 0:54:48.830
<v Speaker 1>AOC among her own viewers. After AOC began publicly talking

0:54:48.850 --> 0:54:53.089
<v Speaker 1>about pesticides, Clark said audience members sent her clips with

0:54:53.140 --> 0:54:57.060
<v Speaker 1>reactions along the lines of, wow, this is crazy. Agree

0:54:57.100 --> 0:55:01.250
<v Speaker 1>with AOC? To quote Clark, And this sort of movement

0:55:01.310 --> 0:55:03.270
<v Speaker 1>points to why I think it might be a good

0:55:03.290 --> 0:55:05.570
<v Speaker 1>idea for someone like AOC to talk to some of

0:55:05.590 --> 0:55:08.310
<v Speaker 1>these people and disrupt the pipeline from the alternative health

0:55:08.570 --> 0:55:09.750
<v Speaker 1>industry into.

0:55:23.300 --> 0:55:24.070
<v Speaker 2>Give them an off ramp.

0:55:24.480 --> 0:55:27.140
<v Speaker 1>Give them an off ramp because the alternative is that

0:55:27.160 --> 0:55:29.779
<v Speaker 1>they're just going to get even more insular into this

0:55:29.860 --> 0:55:33.799
<v Speaker 1>world of conspiracism and eventually like eugenic style fascism. So

0:55:34.140 --> 0:55:36.839
<v Speaker 1>for someone who's doing outreach, you have to first like

0:55:36.900 --> 0:55:40.640
<v Speaker 1>figure out what the variety of concerns are that are

0:55:40.860 --> 0:55:43.280
<v Speaker 1>held by these big groups, right? Where do these concerns

0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:46.320
<v Speaker 1>come from? And if there's any overlap between some of

0:55:46.410 --> 0:55:50.259
<v Speaker 1>the material concerns that they actually have with scientifically based

0:55:50.300 --> 0:55:55.660
<v Speaker 1>environmental issues or left-wing critiques of corporate interests. And this

0:55:55.719 --> 0:55:57.560
<v Speaker 1>might lead someone to kind of question, okay, but then

0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:00.460
<v Speaker 1>why would you do outreach to influencers and leaders of

0:56:00.500 --> 0:56:03.839
<v Speaker 1>Maha rather than just regular normie moms? Well, AOC is

0:56:03.940 --> 0:56:07.400
<v Speaker 1>also doing that through her own social media channels. But

0:56:07.920 --> 0:56:10.969
<v Speaker 1>how do you think she can reach normie moms in

0:56:11.030 --> 0:56:13.150
<v Speaker 1>the first place who are very bubbled, right? Who are

0:56:13.210 --> 0:56:16.129
<v Speaker 1>in their own information silos. It is through, you know,

0:56:16.210 --> 0:56:19.290
<v Speaker 1>talking with some of these movement leaders in private that

0:56:19.310 --> 0:56:22.870
<v Speaker 1>can help you learn about their political operation, about how

0:56:22.930 --> 0:56:25.980
<v Speaker 1>their ideas are disseminated, what their leaders believe, what their

0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:29.100
<v Speaker 1>followers believe, the range of their politics and like what's

0:56:29.120 --> 0:56:31.799
<v Speaker 1>exactly being sold. And also you can learn things that

0:56:31.840 --> 0:56:33.380
<v Speaker 1>they might only say in private.

0:56:33.400 --> 0:56:34.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:56:34.200 --> 0:56:37.040
<v Speaker 1>All of that information can help inform how to target

0:56:37.140 --> 0:56:40.640
<v Speaker 1>regular people. which AOC does from time to time on Instagram,

0:56:40.960 --> 0:56:43.640
<v Speaker 1>and also through visits to data centers, which get picked

0:56:43.700 --> 0:56:47.820
<v Speaker 1>up on local news coverage. And these Maha influencers command

0:56:48.280 --> 0:56:51.210
<v Speaker 1>very large audiences that ordinarily would not be exposed to

0:56:51.250 --> 0:56:54.969
<v Speaker 1>the substance of what AOC's politics actually are, but now

0:56:55.070 --> 0:56:57.549
<v Speaker 1>they might be. And if AOC can position herself as

0:56:57.590 --> 0:56:59.790
<v Speaker 1>a figure that someone in the Maha world can go

0:56:59.870 --> 0:57:03.620
<v Speaker 1>to for takes outside their regular bubble, ideally over time

0:57:03.680 --> 0:57:06.060
<v Speaker 1>she might be able to off-road them. away from the

0:57:06.100 --> 0:57:09.239
<v Speaker 1>crazy stuff towards health policies that actually make us healthier.

0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:12.290
<v Speaker 1>And I think there really is value in attempting to

0:57:12.350 --> 0:57:16.410
<v Speaker 1>pull these followers away from the Maha side and educate

0:57:16.450 --> 0:57:21.180
<v Speaker 1>them on real harms being perpetuated by profit-seeking industries. And

0:57:22.100 --> 0:57:24.800
<v Speaker 1>part of a politician's job is learning how to talk

0:57:24.840 --> 0:57:28.580
<v Speaker 1>to people, right? Talking to these politically lost parents who

0:57:28.620 --> 0:57:30.860
<v Speaker 1>have concerns about the health of their kids It might

0:57:30.940 --> 0:57:35.940
<v Speaker 1>mean different things than talking to a leftist, right? AOC

0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:38.480
<v Speaker 1>has to learn, or anyone has to learn how to

0:57:38.540 --> 0:57:42.140
<v Speaker 1>talk to different types of people. And building a base

0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:46.370
<v Speaker 1>that's capable, a coalition, a majoritarian coalition that's capable of

0:57:46.550 --> 0:57:50.980
<v Speaker 1>challenging capital, challenging these big corporations... will mean talking to

0:57:51.020 --> 0:57:53.540
<v Speaker 1>people that you disagree with or might even have some

0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:58.710
<v Speaker 1>harmful beliefs. This happens in unions all the time, right?

0:57:58.750 --> 0:58:02.810
<v Speaker 1>There's people in working class unions who might believe some

0:58:02.870 --> 0:58:06.430
<v Speaker 1>things that are bad. But if you're going to build

0:58:06.450 --> 0:58:08.850
<v Speaker 1>worker power, you're going to have to talk with them

0:58:08.950 --> 0:58:12.730
<v Speaker 1>and maybe then through the process of building solidarity, you

0:58:12.770 --> 0:58:15.390
<v Speaker 1>can address some of those harmful beliefs that they have.

0:58:15.450 --> 0:58:18.810
<v Speaker 1>Once you have that solidarity kind of built, once you realize...

0:58:18.910 --> 0:58:21.420
<v Speaker 1>you actually do have shared interests. And these sorts of

0:58:21.450 --> 0:58:24.200
<v Speaker 1>harmful beliefs are actually working against those shared interests.

0:58:24.420 --> 0:58:27.340
<v Speaker 2>Agreed. We need a bigger tent. I mean, people who

0:58:27.380 --> 0:58:29.300
<v Speaker 2>want to make these fights, we need as big a

0:58:29.340 --> 0:58:31.320
<v Speaker 2>tent as we can. I agree with that.

0:58:31.460 --> 0:58:33.470
<v Speaker 1>This is the same thing with the data center battle, right?

0:58:33.710 --> 0:58:34.010
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:58:34.230 --> 0:58:36.670
<v Speaker 1>Like that has a lot of conservatives supporting it.

0:58:36.810 --> 0:58:37.570
<v Speaker 2>Right, right, right.

0:58:37.610 --> 0:58:37.990
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah.

0:58:38.030 --> 0:58:40.510
<v Speaker 2>And it's a very interesting topic to bring up along

0:58:40.550 --> 0:58:43.050
<v Speaker 2>with the same thing, you know, with the same people

0:58:43.170 --> 0:58:46.780
<v Speaker 2>whose perspectives on this. how it aligns with Maha and

0:58:46.820 --> 0:58:49.740
<v Speaker 2>how that aligns with the greater MAGA picture is really interesting.

0:58:49.780 --> 0:58:53.900
<v Speaker 2>And you're exactly right. It's about listening, about being empathetic

0:58:54.300 --> 0:58:56.560
<v Speaker 2>for what it's worth. There are studies that show if

0:58:56.580 --> 0:59:00.410
<v Speaker 2>you want to change public opinion on healthcare and the

0:59:00.450 --> 0:59:03.490
<v Speaker 2>healthcare infrastructure, that's what is required. And what does seem

0:59:03.530 --> 0:59:06.510
<v Speaker 2>to work is, you know, listening, showing empathy. It is

0:59:06.590 --> 0:59:09.470
<v Speaker 2>difficult to scale is really the issue, you know, that's

0:59:09.780 --> 0:59:12.760
<v Speaker 2>the kind of thing that is a challenge to scale.

0:59:12.820 --> 0:59:16.400
<v Speaker 2>But it is exactly what you're talking about. It's coalition

0:59:16.440 --> 0:59:20.250
<v Speaker 2>building whenever you can. And we're at a crisis moment

0:59:20.270 --> 0:59:22.370
<v Speaker 2>where I think that's necessary. And when we talk about,

0:59:22.390 --> 0:59:25.280
<v Speaker 2>I talk about, you know, building a bigger tent. For me,

0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:27.200
<v Speaker 2>that means we're bringing in these people, but it doesn't

0:59:27.240 --> 0:59:29.160
<v Speaker 2>mean abandoning the other things.

0:59:29.530 --> 0:59:35.169
<v Speaker 1>Our tent does have rules. Our tent has rules for

0:59:35.190 --> 0:59:38.130
<v Speaker 1>its continued operation. And if you're going to come in

0:59:38.190 --> 0:59:41.150
<v Speaker 1>here and start assaulting people in our tent, if you're

0:59:41.170 --> 0:59:43.490
<v Speaker 1>going to start, you know, hitting down the stick.

0:59:43.530 --> 0:59:47.610
<v Speaker 2>Throwing trans kids under the bus for it. Yeah, then

0:59:47.810 --> 0:59:49.410
<v Speaker 2>our tent should not be for those people.

0:59:49.430 --> 0:59:50.300
<v Speaker 4>I agree. No.

0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:53.840
<v Speaker 1>But there is legitimate problems that if the left doesn't

0:59:54.780 --> 0:59:58.419
<v Speaker 1>address in actually substantive ways, which the right can never

0:59:58.500 --> 1:00:01.310
<v Speaker 1>do because the right's whole ideology is very contradictory. They

1:00:01.350 --> 1:00:03.390
<v Speaker 1>have these kind of populist maha things that they can

1:00:03.410 --> 1:00:06.550
<v Speaker 1>never actually fulfill, as you see with the Trump administration.

1:00:06.910 --> 1:00:12.300
<v Speaker 1>But there is some legitimate issues or anxieties that motivate issues,

1:00:12.360 --> 1:00:13.340
<v Speaker 1>both legitimate and not.

1:00:13.360 --> 1:00:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1:00:14.940 --> 1:00:18.000
<v Speaker 1>If the left doesn't address those, then we give the

1:00:18.160 --> 1:00:20.980
<v Speaker 1>opening to the right to sell crazy bullshit.

1:00:21.020 --> 1:00:21.220
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

1:00:21.820 --> 1:00:25.750
<v Speaker 1>And like, that is the thing that needs to be disrupted. Yes.

1:00:26.160 --> 1:00:27.570
<v Speaker 1>To kind of show my cards at the end here,

1:00:27.660 --> 1:00:29.410
<v Speaker 1>the reason why I kind of like care about this

1:00:29.970 --> 1:00:32.670
<v Speaker 1>is because like, I grew up with like a crunchy mom.

1:00:32.970 --> 1:00:37.050
<v Speaker 1>I'll use that kind of terminology. And I have seen

1:00:37.170 --> 1:00:42.030
<v Speaker 1>her shift politically to the left over the years, right? Like,

1:00:42.390 --> 1:00:44.810
<v Speaker 1>if Maha was a thing 20 years ago, she would

1:00:44.830 --> 1:00:47.990
<v Speaker 1>have been like a Maha person. It's all the same

1:00:48.010 --> 1:00:51.590
<v Speaker 1>types of stuff around like some legitimate issues, some kind

1:00:51.630 --> 1:00:55.720
<v Speaker 1>of borderline issues, like is organic food necessarily better than

1:00:56.220 --> 1:01:00.400
<v Speaker 1>non-organic tomato? Maybe, maybe not. And then also vaccine hesitancy.

1:01:00.660 --> 1:01:03.280
<v Speaker 1>That was a big thing in my family. And I

1:01:03.400 --> 1:01:07.690
<v Speaker 1>saw my mom change her opinions as I grew up.

1:01:08.840 --> 1:01:12.500
<v Speaker 1>And for me, it can be really sad to see...

1:01:13.200 --> 1:01:18.840
<v Speaker 1>so many people assume that large swaths of just regular

1:01:18.860 --> 1:01:24.610
<v Speaker 1>people must have to be these completely unreachable lunatics. Not

1:01:24.810 --> 1:01:30.810
<v Speaker 1>all MAHA-sympathetic people are crazy anti-vaxxers, but there are some.

1:01:31.210 --> 1:01:34.250
<v Speaker 1>And even those people, I think, are still people that

1:01:34.890 --> 1:01:37.250
<v Speaker 1>should be reached. I'm not saying that you have to

1:01:37.310 --> 1:01:40.570
<v Speaker 1>do that. I'm not saying that AOC doing a congressional

1:01:40.610 --> 1:01:43.580
<v Speaker 1>hearing is going to do that immediately. But when you

1:01:43.600 --> 1:01:47.440
<v Speaker 1>start writing off so many people as just like beyond saving,

1:01:48.020 --> 1:01:51.200
<v Speaker 1>then again, you have kind of given up on politics. Yeah.

1:01:51.680 --> 1:01:53.580
<v Speaker 2>We are still responsible for those people.

1:01:53.800 --> 1:01:53.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1:01:54.320 --> 1:01:57.080
<v Speaker 2>We are still responsible for those people's public health. Even

1:01:57.120 --> 1:01:59.660
<v Speaker 2>the people who don't believe in vaccines, I feel responsible

1:01:59.780 --> 1:02:03.000
<v Speaker 2>for their health. So that's really well said. And it

1:02:03.040 --> 1:02:05.180
<v Speaker 2>gives you an interesting perspective on it. And it's good.

1:02:05.200 --> 1:02:08.360
<v Speaker 2>And I think if most of us are, you know,

1:02:08.380 --> 1:02:10.540
<v Speaker 2>really think about it, we probably have someone in our

1:02:10.580 --> 1:02:13.220
<v Speaker 2>lives like that as well. A lot of your listeners

1:02:13.320 --> 1:02:15.800
<v Speaker 2>probably are people who grew up with parents who have

1:02:15.840 --> 1:02:19.140
<v Speaker 2>pretty different ideas. Some of them probably haven't shifted that much,

1:02:19.180 --> 1:02:20.800
<v Speaker 2>but a lot of them probably have. There's someone in

1:02:20.840 --> 1:02:24.170
<v Speaker 2>your life that probably has shifted over time. I think

1:02:24.210 --> 1:02:26.630
<v Speaker 2>it's important that we keep trying to. I mean, these

1:02:26.670 --> 1:02:28.670
<v Speaker 2>are people that we have to, to some degree. I

1:02:28.670 --> 1:02:31.570
<v Speaker 2>think the bottom line is we have to keep communicating

1:02:31.630 --> 1:02:33.890
<v Speaker 2>with Maha and we have to show that we're listening.

1:02:34.370 --> 1:02:36.350
<v Speaker 2>And it doesn't matter how much we know if it

1:02:36.390 --> 1:02:41.210
<v Speaker 2>doesn't show that we care. And that's super cheesy, but

1:02:41.250 --> 1:02:44.260
<v Speaker 2>it is true. And I think that's at the core

1:02:44.500 --> 1:02:47.780
<v Speaker 2>of what AOC is doing. And again, I don't know

1:02:47.860 --> 1:02:49.820
<v Speaker 2>her politics that well. I haven't followed her that closely,

1:02:49.860 --> 1:02:52.510
<v Speaker 2>but she seems pretty savvy. And I feel like that

1:02:52.570 --> 1:02:54.990
<v Speaker 2>empathy thing she nails. And I think that's great. And

1:02:55.010 --> 1:02:57.270
<v Speaker 2>I think that's probably something more of us need to do,

1:02:57.370 --> 1:02:58.550
<v Speaker 2>more politicians should be doing.

1:02:59.450 --> 1:03:03.790
<v Speaker 1>The empathy aspect is really important. And of course, something

1:03:03.810 --> 1:03:08.310
<v Speaker 1>that just doesn't get encouraged on social media because of

1:03:08.350 --> 1:03:10.590
<v Speaker 1>the way those platforms are structured and the way the

1:03:10.670 --> 1:03:14.610
<v Speaker 1>algorithms work. But in trying to answer this question of

1:03:15.150 --> 1:03:19.790
<v Speaker 1>should we, the royal we, do outreach to Maha people,

1:03:19.830 --> 1:03:22.680
<v Speaker 1>I think we first really need to ask ourselves, do

1:03:22.700 --> 1:03:27.180
<v Speaker 1>we actually want to understand this problem? Or do we

1:03:27.200 --> 1:03:30.820
<v Speaker 1>just want to feel superior to anti-vaxxers? Because if we

1:03:30.840 --> 1:03:33.480
<v Speaker 1>just want to feel better than other people, then yeah,

1:03:33.700 --> 1:03:37.620
<v Speaker 1>ignoring the issue and just making fun of these people online...

1:03:38.020 --> 1:03:40.260
<v Speaker 1>That's enough to fulfill your goal. But if your goal

1:03:40.280 --> 1:03:42.880
<v Speaker 1>is to actually address these problems and their root causes,

1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:44.980
<v Speaker 1>you're going to actually have to try to understand the

1:03:45.220 --> 1:03:48.700
<v Speaker 1>diffuse nature of Maha, the variety of issues it tries

1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:52.510
<v Speaker 1>to address, and the anxieties it feeds on. Because if

1:03:52.550 --> 1:03:56.150
<v Speaker 1>you don't, your understanding of the people in Maha will

1:03:56.190 --> 1:04:01.190
<v Speaker 1>not just be incomplete, but politically useless. A lot of

1:04:01.430 --> 1:04:04.630
<v Speaker 1>regular people in the world don't vote or shape their

1:04:04.890 --> 1:04:11.180
<v Speaker 1>beliefs based on deeply held ideological or partisan conviction, but

1:04:11.220 --> 1:04:15.850
<v Speaker 1>through trying to respond to the material conditions in their lives. Now,

1:04:16.130 --> 1:04:19.630
<v Speaker 1>sometimes that means they may get tricked by a con man,

1:04:19.970 --> 1:04:22.490
<v Speaker 1>and it's really easy to just laugh and shame those

1:04:22.530 --> 1:04:26.400
<v Speaker 1>people as gullible fools. But like, how is that useful?

1:04:26.460 --> 1:04:29.500
<v Speaker 1>Or is it just a way to make yourself feel

1:04:29.540 --> 1:04:34.540
<v Speaker 1>superior amidst a public crisis? It's worth remembering that one

1:04:34.600 --> 1:04:40.130
<v Speaker 1>out of 10 Mamdani voters voted for Trump in 2024.

1:04:40.130 --> 1:04:44.700
<v Speaker 1>And Mamdani started his campaign by talking with Trump voters

1:04:45.040 --> 1:04:47.160
<v Speaker 1>in the Bronx on Fordham Road. That was like his

1:04:47.300 --> 1:04:53.060
<v Speaker 1>first campaign video in November of 2024 after the presidential election.

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<v Speaker 1>Rebuilding faith in public health will take a long time.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh boy.

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<v Speaker 1>I think passing universal health care would be a huge

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<v Speaker 1>step towards that. Having people occupying the government that is

1:05:06.090 --> 1:05:09.430
<v Speaker 1>actually transparent, doesn't just lie about being transparent, will be

1:05:09.490 --> 1:05:13.710
<v Speaker 1>steps towards that goal. And I guess I hope to

1:05:13.790 --> 1:05:16.290
<v Speaker 1>see that goal one day, even if it is not

1:05:16.330 --> 1:05:18.230
<v Speaker 1>right now. But you know what you can do right

1:05:18.270 --> 1:05:21.570
<v Speaker 1>now is listen to House of Pod if you want

1:05:21.610 --> 1:05:24.430
<v Speaker 1>some real information about public health.

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<v Speaker 2>You sure can. As soon as you're done listening to this,

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<v Speaker 2>and I mean including the ads that come at the

1:05:29.180 --> 1:05:31.680
<v Speaker 2>end of this podcast, once you're done listening to all

1:05:31.720 --> 1:05:34.300
<v Speaker 2>of those, then go listen to my podcast, The House

1:05:34.360 --> 1:05:36.760
<v Speaker 2>of Pod, where we talk about a lot of these

1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:39.000
<v Speaker 2>same issues. I bring on experts from all kinds of

1:05:39.020 --> 1:05:41.980
<v Speaker 2>different fields because I don't know everything about medicine, although

1:05:42.020 --> 1:05:44.780
<v Speaker 2>I am pretty smart. I don't know everything. So I

1:05:44.840 --> 1:05:46.960
<v Speaker 2>bring on people smarter than me whenever I can. And

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<v Speaker 2>we'll cover things from wellness grifters, Dr. Oz, Peter Attia,

1:05:52.830 --> 1:05:55.990
<v Speaker 2>more obscure people that you probably haven't heard of, to

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<v Speaker 2>what RFK Jr. is currently doing to our healthcare infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a pretty fun show. It's not too science-y.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think if you like this podcast, there's a

1:06:07.120 --> 1:06:09.160
<v Speaker 2>very good chance you're going to like the House of Pod. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>if I may plug, I have a new podcast coming

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<v Speaker 2>out that I'm very excited about. It's a little different.

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<v Speaker 2>It is called Persian of Interest. It's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a Persian history podcast. It's going to take a look

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<v Speaker 2>at stories of Persian contributions to the arts, to music,

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<v Speaker 2>to philosophy. Going to look at stories that Persians have

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<v Speaker 2>largely been written out of or minimized in where the

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<v Speaker 2>role is more prominent. And I think it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a lot of fun. So stay tuned for Persian

1:06:36.520 --> 1:06:38.820
<v Speaker 2>of Interest as well, which should be coming out at

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<v Speaker 2>the end of this month.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for coming on and talking about

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<v Speaker 1>a very, very challenging topic for, geez, an hour.

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<v Speaker 2>Bring me back in like a month and let me

1:06:49.670 --> 1:06:53.170
<v Speaker 2>see if I'm still feeling as open to talking to Maha.

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<v Speaker 1>Will do.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 4>For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com,

1:07:06.470 --> 1:07:09.270
<v Speaker 4>or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1:07:09.630 --> 1:07:12.439
<v Speaker 4>or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find

1:07:12.500 --> 1:07:15.440
<v Speaker 4>sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks for listening.