1
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,039
Speaker 1: Welcome to the away, And I'mmanielle Alarconne and I'm John

2
00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 1: green Don. If we live to be seventy eight years old,

3
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: which is the average length of an American man's life,

4
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 1: that means that we don't have eight World Cups left. Wow,

5
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: I think I sent you that and you expressed some dismay.

6
00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk through your feelings? Yeah?

7
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:26,680
Speaker 2: It did send me into a bit of a spiral,

8
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 2: to be fully honest with you. It reminded me a

9
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 2: little bit of when I was doing physical therapy for

10
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,320
Speaker 2: some pain in my back, which is another evidence of

11
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,320
Speaker 2: the fact that I'm getting older. And I made the

12
00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,120
Speaker 2: joke that I've been making for the last ten or

13
00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,560
Speaker 2: fifteen years when someone asks how old I am, I said,

14
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 2: I'm forty eight. Halfway home And the physical therapist I

15
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,800
Speaker 2: made the joke to looked at me and said, well,

16
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:51,960
Speaker 2: but probably more than.

17
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 1: That love their bedside manner. Yeah, yeah, so that's how

18
00:00:58,280 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 1: it makes me feel. It makes me feel like I'm

19
00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,639
Speaker 1: more than halfway home. Yeah, I mean, you know, eight

20
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,440
Speaker 1: World Cups is a lot is a lot of World Cups.

21
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,480
Speaker 1: You know, It's not like it's one World Cup, right,

22
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: And I I, you know, I have a feeling like

23
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,080
Speaker 1: I feel like that means eight more shots at something

24
00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:22,560
Speaker 1: truly unexpected happening, you know, eight more opportunities for you know,

25
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 1: the surprise winner, for a new team to emerge, for

26
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: for a you know, a generational talent to show up

27
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,960
Speaker 1: and sort of transform review of the game. So I

28
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,680
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel sort of weirdly optimistic, maybe because

29
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,080
Speaker 1: it's eight and not like three, you know, yeah, but

30
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,440
Speaker 1: it's just the fact that it's accountable number as a

31
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,119
Speaker 1: bummer to me, Like we can count it on our hands,

32
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 1: you mean, yeah, And just the thought that I only

33
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 1: have a finite number of World Cups in general is

34
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 1: a little depressing. It reminds me my friend Amy Cross Rosenthal,

35
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 1: toward the end of her life, wrote about how many

36
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,520
Speaker 1: times she had left to look at a tree, and

37
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 1: that she knew she only had so many times left

38
00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 1: to look at a tree, and how discouraging that was

39
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 1: in some ways, but also how poignant. So I guess

40
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,720
Speaker 1: that's what I feel. I feel the poignancy of time passing,

41
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,560
Speaker 1: which is a start contrast to how I usually feel

42
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,840
Speaker 1: when I think about the World Cup, which is exactly

43
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:14,600
Speaker 1: what you described. For me, which is that I feel

44
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,919
Speaker 1: like I'm twelve years old again, right right, But maybe

45
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,960
Speaker 1: I'll feel that way when i'm old. Yeah, I think

46
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,120
Speaker 1: maybe I'll just appreciate it more. And I want to

47
00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 1: apologize to our listeners for the downbeat way of beginning

48
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,560
Speaker 1: our second episode, but I do want to just mention

49
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,240
Speaker 1: how excited I am to be back with you and

50
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 1: hopefully with a bunch of listeners too, because we are

51
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,080
Speaker 1: talking about something really beautiful. We're not talking about death

52
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 1: and dying and our limited time here on this swirling planet.

53
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 1: We're talking about the World Cup, about global football, and

54
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 1: maybe we should start with Afcon, which I realized by

55
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:44,800
Speaker 1: the time you listen to this will have been a

56
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 1: few days. But I also feel like it's the kind

57
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 1: of thing that needed a few days or you know,

58
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,720
Speaker 1: ten days or so to process because of the final

59
00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 1: that was so crazy. We should get to that in

60
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 1: a second, but I want to start with you, and

61
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,919
Speaker 1: I know everyone knows you're a Liverpool fan, and everyone

62
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,320
Speaker 1: knows how seriously you take it, and I wanted to

63
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: ask you, as a fan a couple of questions about

64
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,399
Speaker 1: the semifinal two Liverpool legends. Sadiomane and Mosala battling it out,

65
00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 1: not for the first time, And I'm just kind of

66
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,240
Speaker 1: interested in the conflicting loyalties that you might have as

67
00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:20,960
Speaker 1: a fan. So how did you experience that?

68
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I didn't have a preferred team to

69
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,679
Speaker 2: win that game. It feels weird to root for one

70
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,560
Speaker 2: Liverpool legend over another, even if Mosaala is still with

71
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 2: the team and Money isn't. But I did feel like

72
00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,000
Speaker 2: Senegal deserved to win the game. I thought they played

73
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 2: a much more aggressive, attacking forward style game. They brought

74
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 2: the game to Egypt. I was confused actually by Egypt's tactics.

75
00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,760
Speaker 2: And so I always want players to do well right,

76
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,720
Speaker 2: like in my dream Afcon or my dream World Cup,

77
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,160
Speaker 2: everybody has a great tournament, and it just turns out

78
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 2: that like somebody has a better tournament than had somebody else,

79
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 2: you know, Like I never even with players I actively dislike,

80
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 2: I don't root for them to have a bad tournament

81
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 2: because the World Cup means so much, you know, it's

82
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,400
Speaker 2: so devastating to a player if they make a mistake,

83
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 2: as we'll talk about in the final. It's so permanent,

84
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,240
Speaker 2: you know, Like I have a few regrets in my

85
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,240
Speaker 2: life that there's just no way to walk back. And

86
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 2: that's what it is to miss a penalty in a

87
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 2: World Cup final or in an Afcon final. That's what

88
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,599
Speaker 2: it is to make a mistake that leads to a goal.

89
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,560
Speaker 2: I think about when I was the ultra for our

90
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 2: high school soccer team. There was a player he'll remain nameless,

91
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,719
Speaker 2: because I think he probably still thinks about it, who

92
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 2: lost in the state tournament, like we lost in the

93
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 2: state tournament, because he basically got he was basically gassed.

94
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:56,720
Speaker 1: An extra time.

95
00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:58,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if you even remember this, Daniel, but

96
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,240
Speaker 2: you know a player ran past him and he couldn't

97
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,360
Speaker 2: do anything about it and didn't take him down. And

98
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,279
Speaker 2: that player went and scored a goal, and that was

99
00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 2: the goal that sent Indian Springs home from the tournament.

100
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,440
Speaker 2: And if I were him, I would still think about that.

101
00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,359
Speaker 2: And that was just high school soccer.

102
00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,720
Speaker 1: Wow, I was I was probably playing that game, and

103
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: I don't remember unless that was me, in which case

104
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,760
Speaker 1: it was, I don't think about it anymore. What I

105
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 1: remember was from that I've completely forgotten. I didn't play

106
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,839
Speaker 1: in the final because I got injured in the semifinal.

107
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,200
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, yeah, I got taken out, and I

108
00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,840
Speaker 1: was like, it was almost immediately after I'd scored a goal,

109
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: which was like one of the I was at midfield.

110
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,000
Speaker 1: I rarely ever scored, but I do remember Alan O'Neill

111
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 1: put me through and I scored a one touch, great goal,

112
00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,040
Speaker 1: great player, and then my defender like cleaned me out

113
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 1: the next play and I woke up the next morning

114
00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 1: I couldn't walk. Yeah, So anyway, but I guess I

115
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,440
Speaker 1: do understand that feeling. I'm sort of like, oh, I

116
00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,599
Speaker 1: do sometimes weirdly because I'm forty eight years old. Who cares.

117
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,520
Speaker 1: Wish I'd played that game? You know, Yeah, I wish

118
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,479
Speaker 1: he'd played it too. But if I played the final,

119
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,919
Speaker 1: you know, like I might have like permanently damaged my

120
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,920
Speaker 1: ability to run, you know something like you know, uh,

121
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,000
Speaker 1: And so I'm kind of glad that the doctor that

122
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,280
Speaker 1: I saw that morning was like, absolutely not, you can't play. Yeah,

123
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,920
Speaker 1: in the scheme of things, it's more important. Yeah. Yeah.

124
00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 2: But to take it back to AFCON, I mean, I

125
00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 2: root for the same thing. I root for everybody to

126
00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:25,840
Speaker 2: have a good game, and I root for nobody to

127
00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,159
Speaker 2: get hurt. And I was very impressed with Saudiomane. I

128
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:31,839
Speaker 2: mean he is an elderly gentleman.

129
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 1: Let's be honest. I mean he is. He plays in

130
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia. He hasn't lost a step, he's lost four

131
00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,920
Speaker 1: or five steps. And he's an attacking player who you know,

132
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,159
Speaker 1: was never that dependent upon pace, but like needs his

133
00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 1: pace to really perform at the highest level, and yet

134
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:54,080
Speaker 1: still basically carried that team to an African Cup of

135
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 1: Nations trophy. I have many questions with that one. When

136
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,679
Speaker 1: when it was that I'm Verrid of Sala and Mane

137
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,440
Speaker 1: and Bobby Formino. Am I correct saying that your favorite

138
00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:07,760
Speaker 1: was Bobby Formino.

139
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 2: By a country mile. Yeah, I'm a big Bobby Formino

140
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,360
Speaker 2: fan because I always felt I mean, he wasn't underappreciated

141
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,560
Speaker 2: by Liverpool fans, but I feel like he was underappreciated

142
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,840
Speaker 2: in world football because he didn't score that many goals,

143
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 2: but what he did was much more interesting. Yeah, you know,

144
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 2: he opened up space. He had that genius for for

145
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,840
Speaker 2: finding players in space, for finding space where it seemed tight,

146
00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 2: and I've just always loved him.

147
00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 1: I also felt like he was the kind of the

148
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,680
Speaker 1: most zen of the two and the one who balanced

149
00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 1: them to keep them from from fighting.

150
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they would often argue, and he was the I

151
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 2: remember once they had a fight. And then in the

152
00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 2: in the tunnel on the way home from the game,

153
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,400
Speaker 2: there was a there was a meme of Bobby for

154
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 2: Meino smiling nervously, like looking at the camera like what

155
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,080
Speaker 2: are you going to do about these guys?

156
00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: Totally, So that was one thing. And then and then

157
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:02,840
Speaker 1: the other thing I wanted to ask you was about

158
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,400
Speaker 1: the final because money played a huge role in avoiding

159
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 1: what would have been a complete embarrassment for African football

160
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,280
Speaker 1: by bringing the Senegalese team back onto the pitch. Did

161
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 1: he ever show that kind of maturity at Liverpool? Like

162
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 1: would you have guessed that it would have been him

163
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,280
Speaker 1: to show that kind of leadership and maturity in that moment?

164
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 2: I would not necessarily have guessed it would have been him.

165
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,000
Speaker 2: I will say, I think the context here is really important.

166
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:36,000
Speaker 2: So the Senegalese team felt very hard done by throughout

167
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,920
Speaker 2: that game and then the lead up to that game,

168
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 2: in terms of ticket allocations, in terms of security, in

169
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,560
Speaker 2: terms of all kinds of things. And then during the

170
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,080
Speaker 2: game there was towel gate. I don't know how closely

171
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:53,360
Speaker 2: you followed towel gate. Oh yes, yeah, the goalkeeper's towel

172
00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:58,320
Speaker 2: was stolen by initially by the captain of Morocco, the

173
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,200
Speaker 2: Senegalese goalkeeper's towel stolen, and then by the ball boys.

174
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,080
Speaker 2: The ball boys kept stealing the towel until eventually a

175
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,320
Speaker 2: substitute was sent just to watch over the towel. A

176
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,880
Speaker 2: Senegalese substitute was sent just to watch over the towel,

177
00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,480
Speaker 2: and I think by the time the actual penalty was

178
00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,440
Speaker 2: called in the ninety eighth minute, So it's the ninety

179
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:23,520
Speaker 2: eighth minute, there is a very normal amount of contact

180
00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:29,240
Speaker 2: on a Moroccan cornerkick, and the video assistant referee calls

181
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,200
Speaker 2: the referee over and says it's this a penalty, and

182
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 2: the referee decides it is a penalty against Senegal for

183
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 2: Morocco in the ninety eighth minute on what was a

184
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 2: very I mean, it was not a foul at least

185
00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:44,680
Speaker 2: if it was a foul, then there would have been

186
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 2: thirty penalties that game, and so I think the Senegalese

187
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 2: team felt very hard done by. But Moni was absolutely

188
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,000
Speaker 2: right that the response to a poor refereeing decision is

189
00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,200
Speaker 2: not to remove yourself from the playing field and refuse

190
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 2: to finish the game. The response is and has to be, well,

191
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 2: you know, that's the nature of the game. We play

192
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,400
Speaker 2: like we all want football to be totally fair, but

193
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,600
Speaker 2: it isn't fair, right, Like, That's part of what we

194
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 2: love about the game is that it is like life.

195
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 2: Sometimes it doesn't break your way and for reasons that

196
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,400
Speaker 2: aren't good reasons. And so I thought he was he

197
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 2: really was the hero of that moment to call the

198
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,200
Speaker 2: players back and say over the coach's head basically say no,

199
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,280
Speaker 2: we're going to finish this game. They're going to take

200
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,880
Speaker 2: this penalty and we're going to see how it goes.

201
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I was a kid, my dad would, you know,

202
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,080
Speaker 1: whenever I would say something isn't fair, he would he

203
00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,199
Speaker 1: would say, I see, he said football, that's soccer, which

204
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 1: I always loved because it's basically saying that's life, except

205
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,960
Speaker 1: you replace life with football, which is how many people

206
00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,280
Speaker 1: actually exist in terms of their you know, emotional hierarchy

207
00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,400
Speaker 1: of of of importance. And I think it is a

208
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 1: lesson and I think it's like one of the reasons

209
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 1: we love sport, I think is because there are rules

210
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 1: and life there aren't you know, And the game lasts

211
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 1: this long and you can't use your hands and off sides,

212
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 1: which producer Sean explained to us in great detail last episode.

213
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 1: And all those things are sort of like, you know,

214
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,280
Speaker 1: you hold onto them tight and they feel like certainties

215
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 1: that you can you could build an understanding of events around.

216
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,679
Speaker 1: But the truth is that there are bad referees, there

217
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,440
Speaker 1: are bad pitches, There are difficult context in which to

218
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,440
Speaker 1: play where things feel unfair. There are you know, insane

219
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,880
Speaker 1: ball boys who go around stealing towels, and all kinds

220
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,800
Speaker 1: of other things that give texture to our idea that

221
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,200
Speaker 1: sport is this kind of level playing field, because it

222
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,280
Speaker 1: isn't obviously. And yeah, I think Mani did a great

223
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 1: service not just to his team but to Afkhan and

224
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,040
Speaker 1: African football and too world football, because I think it

225
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 1: would have been just a huge embarrassment if the team

226
00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 1: had just walked off. To have a final abandoned is terrible, Yes.

227
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,080
Speaker 2: It would have been terrible, but not only that. Of course,

228
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 2: the game is eventually restarted and then the penalty is

229
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 2: taken and it is a pananka do.

230
00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,200
Speaker 1: You do you want to do this? Now? Should we wait?

231
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,079
Speaker 1: Let's do it now. Let's do it now, Sean, do

232
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 1: you want to come on? Hey Sean?

233
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 3: What's up?

234
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,199
Speaker 1: Guys? How's it going? Man? We had a question for you. Okay,

235
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:19,520
Speaker 1: what is a pananka?

236
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,439
Speaker 3: I have never heard that term before in my life.

237
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 3: I thought it was the name of a player.

238
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: So it is a player, that is that's great, that's great,

239
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,840
Speaker 1: you nailed it. Yeah, but okay, yes and no, Yes

240
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,480
Speaker 1: and no, it's the name of a player. I mean,

241
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: strictly speaking, you are not incorrect. All right, how about that?

242
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 1: All right, that's a good story. Should I explain what

243
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 1: pananca means in this context? Yeah, Panenka is a is

244
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,320
Speaker 1: a specifically is yes, named after a player, but it's

245
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,640
Speaker 1: also a type of penalty kick, and it was pioneered

246
00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy six by a fella named Pananka who

247
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 1: in the European Final, in the most important game of

248
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 1: his career, ran up to take the penalty kick, which

249
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,160
Speaker 1: is a spot kick from like twelve yards away. Ran

250
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 1: up to take the penalty kick, and instead of kicking

251
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,600
Speaker 1: it hard into a corner like you always do, he

252
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 1: kicked it very softly and slowly in a high arc

253
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,080
Speaker 1: straight down the middle. And he did this because he

254
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,199
Speaker 1: knew the goalkeeper would dive to the left or the

255
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 1: right and then the ball would just sort of trickle

256
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,439
Speaker 1: into the net, thereby humiliating the goalkeeper, winning the European Cup,

257
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 1: becoming the hero, and having the penanka forever after named

258
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:40,920
Speaker 1: for you.

259
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 2: Just one problem. If you try a penanka and it

260
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 2: doesn't work, it's the most humiliating thing in football, because

261
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 2: the goalie stands still and the ball essentially falls kindly

262
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,040
Speaker 2: into his arms, which is what happened in this game.

263
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 1: That's exactly what happens. Exactly what happened, and it was humiliating.

264
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I would ever try panenka unless I was, like,

265
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 1: you know, in the rec room with a bunch of children,

266
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,599
Speaker 1: like playing around. This whole thing reminded me actually of

267
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,440
Speaker 1: a Chilean player, Alexis Sanchez, who did a panenka in

268
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,640
Speaker 1: a Copamerica game penalty kicks against Argentina. It takes an

269
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 1: incredible amount of self confidence, and one of the things

270
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 1: that I find interesting about elite athletes is how you know,

271
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 1: it's almost a sense of delusion. You have to have

272
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,520
Speaker 1: a level of self belief that borders on delusion to

273
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,240
Speaker 1: play at that level anyway, and then to attempt something

274
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,920
Speaker 1: like that, you know, like in many of the soccer

275
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,800
Speaker 1: chats I meant, everyone was saying, you know, he's crazy,

276
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 1: he's crazy. He's crazy. Yes he is. That's a crazy

277
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 1: mistake to make. But I feel like it's something that

278
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,760
Speaker 1: you do when you have such formidable self belief. And

279
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,120
Speaker 1: he attempted something that if it had worked, he would

280
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 1: be a legend. And it didn't work, and he looks

281
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 1: like an.

282
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,920
Speaker 2: Ass sean before we let you go? Is there any

283
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,400
Speaker 2: field in which you have that level of confidence to

284
00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 2: do a panenka? Yeah, like or or a pananka style

285
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,680
Speaker 2: thing like? I feel like I don't have that level

286
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,440
Speaker 2: of confidence in young adult fiction writing. And I am

287
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,920
Speaker 2: a pretty good well, I don't know.

288
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,480
Speaker 1: I do my best. I can't even say that I'm

289
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 1: a good writer. I stop myself in the middle of

290
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:15,160
Speaker 1: the sentence.

291
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, does does cooking count cooking? Cooking?

292
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 1: What would a panenka in cooking be? What would that

293
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 1: even be? Oh? When you're just like a bold cook

294
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 1: who needs no recipe.

295
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,800
Speaker 3: Right, like, you know exactly what you're doing. You've made

296
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,120
Speaker 3: this dish a thousand times.

297
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,480
Speaker 1: No, but it's more than that because it's like everyone's

298
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 1: expecting bay a ya and you make mashed potatoes instead

299
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 1: and it turns out to be delicious. Like that's what

300
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,120
Speaker 1: it is, because it's not that you can do something

301
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 1: incredible without a recipe, it's that you make something simple

302
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 1: so good that it's shocking and stuns the audience. Because

303
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 1: the essential element of the panica is the misdirect. It's

304
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 1: like throwing the change up instead of the fastball, you know,

305
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 1: So it wouldn't just be cooking without a recipe. Would

306
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 1: be someone expecting calamari and you give French fries but

307
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 1: they're incredible. Yeah, I think Sean could do that. I could.

308
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 1: I can't wait to come to you.

309
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 3: Before I hop I do have one quick question, like,

310
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 3: is there a precedent to what happened in this game

311
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,960
Speaker 3: where in a final the team stages a protest or

312
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 3: a walk off? Because I've never heard of that happening

313
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,200
Speaker 3: before in any sport, but especially football.

314
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,120
Speaker 2: I have also never heard of it happening. And while

315
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,560
Speaker 2: it was happening, I felt sick to my stomach because

316
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 2: I was like, this just confirms what everybody says about football, right,

317
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 2: Like this confirms what everybody says about African and North

318
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 2: American football especially, but about you know, FIFA in general,

319
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 2: that it's corrupt to the core and that there's no

320
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 2: way to respond to the corruption except not playing the game.

321
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 2: And whether or not that's true, I think that's certainly

322
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,720
Speaker 2: how the Senegalese team felt, and listen, I don't think

323
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: there was anything corrupt in the referees decision. I think

324
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,400
Speaker 2: it was just a bad decision, and referees make bad

325
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,280
Speaker 2: decisions all the time because they're human beings.

326
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 1: Can I offer a contrary take? Yeah, because I watched

327
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,280
Speaker 1: the game, and the more I watched the replays, I

328
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 1: was like, that's a penalty. Wow, that wasn't a It

329
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,320
Speaker 1: wasn't a bad call. It was a defender had his

330
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,879
Speaker 1: arms on Brian Diaz's neck right in the ninety eight

331
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 1: minute of an Afcon final as the corn cakes coming in.

332
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 1: He pulls them down. Brian Diaz makes a meal of it, obviously,

333
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 1: but that's not a terrible call. That's that you've seen them,

334
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,200
Speaker 1: as they say, you've seen them given so I thought

335
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,560
Speaker 1: that the response was terrible and it was embarrassing, but

336
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 1: it's also also placing it in context. You know, the

337
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,439
Speaker 1: Copaminica final in Miami last summer was also chaotic. There

338
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,320
Speaker 1: was a couple of years ago in Peru the two

339
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 1: rivals improving soccer against A Lima and when you were

340
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,639
Speaker 1: decided that port this were playing basically what amounted to

341
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 1: the final. They were playing the final game at Alansas

342
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 1: Stadium in Matute in Lima. And as soon as the

343
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,119
Speaker 1: game ended and when we started hood one and it

344
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,479
Speaker 1: was going to celebrate their championship on their rivals field,

345
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 1: Alansa just turned off the lights, which was so that's class.

346
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,479
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, I'm all for that. That's that's it was.

347
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 1: It was a huge scandal, but and also like I'm

348
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 1: an Aliansa fan, and pretty embarrassing but also kind of hilarious.

349
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: And I do feel like, you know, everyone was saying like, oh,

350
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,439
Speaker 1: you hate to see it and wringing their hands, but

351
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, like it was pretty riveting spectacle. You can't

352
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,639
Speaker 1: say it was uninteresting, even if it was embarrassing. Uh,

353
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 1: you know, you know you don't want your kids to

354
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: follow this kind of example. I will say the only

355
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,719
Speaker 1: time that I've seen or I can imagine people storming

356
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 1: off in the final would be in high school sports,

357
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,439
Speaker 1: you know, like you just don't see it at this

358
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,199
Speaker 1: level because you know, I mean there's millions of people watching,

359
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,160
Speaker 1: you know, and it's just and they're grown ups. They're

360
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 1: supposed to be grown ups. I mean, I still think

361
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 1: of Brandy as his twenty six and I still think

362
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: of him as a kid. You know. I felt bad.

363
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 1: I felt so bad for him. He's just shattered. He

364
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 1: could tell he was just a mess. He's not going

365
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,120
Speaker 1: to recover from that for years years of therapy, which

366
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,439
Speaker 1: he probably won't get. You know. My first thought was,

367
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 1: like his mental health. Honestly, Yeah, no, I agree. All right,

368
00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 1: let's take a break and we'll come back and talk

369
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,879
Speaker 1: about politics. Great.

370
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 4: Thanks John, guys, welcome back to the Away End on

371
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:41,640
Speaker 4: Danielle Alergonne.

372
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 1: John. I don't want to do this, but we have to.

373
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 1: I have to talk abut a little bit about politics.

374
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,360
Speaker 1: Last week, President Trump abruptly announced that he was canceling

375
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: visas indefinitely from seventy five countries. I want to list

376
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 1: off some of his countries, just the ones that are

377
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,399
Speaker 1: in the World Cup or in the playoffs of the

378
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 1: World Cup. Okay, Verdie Columbia, Ivory Coast DRC. This Democratic Republic, Congo, Egypt, Ghana, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Jordan, Kosovo, Morocco, Nigeria,

379
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 1: Sene golsbeck Say and Uruguay. You may have noticed that

380
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,400
Speaker 1: all four Afcon semifinalists are on this list. You may

381
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 1: have noticed how many of these countries are important soccer nations.

382
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: I think you can also notice which countries aren't on

383
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 1: the list. I think that's also interesting. But anyway, it's

384
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: really troubling, and there's talk that there might be an

385
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 1: exemption for the World Cup. I know the mayor of

386
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 1: New York's Armamdani has been talking about he's going to

387
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 1: call Trump and try to get this sorted since the

388
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 1: finals being played in just outside New York at MetLife

389
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 1: Stadium in Jersey. What was your reaction when you saw

390
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: this list?

391
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,400
Speaker 2: Well, I have to say that I wasn't tremendously surprised

392
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,439
Speaker 2: because escalation has been the name of the game for

393
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 2: the administration throughout the first year, and I do a

394
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 2: lot of work as you know, in Sierra Leone, which

395
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 2: has been on the visa ban list almost from the

396
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 2: beginning of the administration. It was one of the first

397
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: countries where visas were suspended indefinitely, and that means that

398
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,640
Speaker 2: essentially no one from Sierra Leone, with very few exceptions,

399
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 2: can visit the United States, and that you know, if

400
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 2: for instance, Sierra Leone had qualified for the World Cup,

401
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: which unfortunately they didn't, but if they had, that means

402
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,439
Speaker 2: that they would have no fans from Sierra Leone. Potentially,

403
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 2: you know, Sierra Leonian Americans could still visit the tournament

404
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 2: and everything, but it's just to me, yet another punitive

405
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 2: move by the administration, and it has big impacts for

406
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: the World Cup. I don't know what the World Cup

407
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 2: is going to look like. If there will be no

408
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 2: Uzbek people at the Uzbekistan Games, you know, or at

409
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 2: least like people who only have an Uzbek passport, It's

410
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 2: going to be a very weird World Cup as it is.

411
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: You know, the argument was always, oh, the World Cup

412
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: is corrupt because it's here. The World Cup is corrupt

413
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: because it's there. So I'm really disappointed by this decision.

414
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, the way it impacts football is a

415
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,719
Speaker 2: footnote in the story. I wonder how you're feeling about it.

416
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 2: It's hard to separate. You're right, how it affects the

417
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: World Cup is a footnote, is very much of a

418
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: piece with everything else the Trump administration is doing with

419
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 2: regards to immigration and its violent implementation of immigration enforcement

420
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 2: tactics across American cities. It's hugely disappointing. I think it's

421
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,919
Speaker 2: something that I've been keeping my eye on for you know,

422
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,959
Speaker 2: since the Trump administration began. The idea of the three countries,

423
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: you know, Canada, United States, and Mexico coming together to

424
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: host a World Cup was built on this notion of

425
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 2: integration and friendliness between these the three countries, the three

426
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: large countries that share in North America that no longer exists.

427
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: You know. The Trump administration has blown that up, you know,

428
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: threatening to go into Mexico, go to attack the cartels,

429
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 1: something the Mexican government obviously is like, look, you know,

430
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 1: you can't just bomb us across the border. He started off,

431
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, kind of taunting Canada with this fifty first

432
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: state stuff. So you know this that's not exactly the

433
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 1: kind of I imagine, It's not the political environment in which

434
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 1: FIFA wanted to stage it's showpiece event. Now, I wonder

435
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: because like, you know, these these kinds of ammoral apart

436
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: chicks of big giant organizations like FIFA fascinate me. Like,

437
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: I wonder what Gianni Infantino was thinking, you know that

438
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: the FIFA Peace Prize was going to buy him, you

439
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: know what kind of you know, He's like, okay, good,

440
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: we make up this prize, we give it to Trump.

441
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: Then he won't mess with us on visas. He'll stop

442
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: saying that he's going to take games away from you know,

443
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: cities and blue states, and we can finally just go

444
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: on to our business of making money off of rabid

445
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: soccer fans from all over the world. Now they seem

446
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: to speak the same language, Inventino and Trump. So it

447
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: surprises me that this wasn't something that Inventino was able

448
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: to head off at the past, you know what I mean.

449
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he's used to dealing with a different

450
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: kind of strong man. I think he's used to dealing

451
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: with different sorts of totalitarian leaders. And part of this

452
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: is because Trump isn't an elected dictator, despite whatever ambitions

453
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,719
Speaker 2: people around him may have, and so, you know, instituting

454
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 2: some of these changes is difficult. The places where Trump

455
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: does have a lot of power also places where he

456
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: tends to exercise a lot of power In immigration in

457
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: you know, handing out visas, etc. I am reminded that

458
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: football has always been political, you know. And I think

459
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: it was before the nineteen thirty World Cup that somebody

460
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: said to the Uruguay national team, you are the motherland.

461
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: Like for those weeks, you are the motherland. And it's

462
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 2: never not political. It's just that it would have been,

463
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: as you say, nice to have a World Cup hosted

464
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 2: by three countries that are getting along and coming closer

465
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 2: together over time, deepening their relationship through the magic of sport.

466
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 2: That was the narrative, and it's very clear that's not

467
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: going to be what happens. And what I'm hearing from

468
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: a lot of my friends in Europe in Africa is

469
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 2: that they don't want to come to the World Cup,

470
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: even if they have the means to do so. They're

471
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 2: nervous about coming to the United States. They're nervous about

472
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: having their social media checked, They're worried about you all

473
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: kinds of not just the absurd cost of going to

474
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: the World Cup in twenty twenty six, but also the

475
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: risks of going to the World Cup, which feel very

476
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 2: palpable to a lot of people.

477
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, I mean, I'm an American citizen, and I'm

478
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: nervous about going back to the United States right now.

479
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm nervous that I'll be outside somewhere speaking Spanish to

480
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: my wife and someone will come try to detain me,

481
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, I completely understand that, and that's

482
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: part of why I'm tentatively but probably going to spend

483
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: the World Cup here in Columbia. Parenthetically, I should say

484
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: that my son made his first bracket and I don't

485
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: know if I sent this to you, John, but somehow

486
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: he ended up with a final that was Columbia versus

487
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: the United States. Via hell of a moment, it sure

488
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: would be. I think that would be remarkable. You know,

489
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: if you put a dollar on that, he's going to

490
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: get a lot of money back for the college fund.

491
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think soccer's always been political and also

492
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: always geopolitical, and also the space in which scores get

493
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: settled between nations, right just in ways that are controversial,

494
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: in ways that are riveting to watch. I mean, I

495
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: grew up and I should mention I think I've said

496
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: ten times now in two episodes that I'm Provian, but

497
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: I remember growing up and hearing about the glory days

498
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: of proving soccer, which essentially came to an end, at

499
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: least in the telling that I was given as a

500
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: boy in the nineteen seventy eight World Cup when Argentina

501
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: had to win a game by six goals against Peru,

502
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: and apparently it was a range And this is the

503
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: story that I've heard, and I believe it because it

504
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: was told to me by my father. And you know,

505
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: why wouldn't I Kissinger arranged for Peru to lose that

506
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: game and they did exactly six nothing and Argentina won,

507
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: moved onto the knockout phase and ended up winning the

508
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: World Cup. And they say that winning that World Cup

509
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: sort of gave the kind of dictatorship that was running

510
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: the military junta I was running Argentina at the time,

511
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: an extra few years of oxygen to survive because of

512
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: just changed the national mood. And winning a World Cup

513
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: can do that. I wouldn't know, not, nor would I,

514
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: So yeah, I wonder, I wonder. You know, it's always

515
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: been this way. It's a way for nations to settle scores.

516
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: You know, there's a famous Argentina England game and that

517
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: he's six post Falkland or there was an incident when

518
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: the Swiss team played Serbia in the last World Cup.

519
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: Do you remember, Oh yeah, it wasn't Grant Shackay, it

520
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: was the other guy, Jared and Shakiri. Yes, yes, short

521
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: little bulldog of a man, incredibly talented technical player. Yeah,

522
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: but one of those teas play's best games with his

523
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: national team, scores and then does the Albanian symbol and

524
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: gets fined for it, you know, because he's of Albanian descent.

525
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: Or I think about the games between the US and

526
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: Iran and the World Cup, or the games between France

527
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: and Senegal, France and Algeria. These are charged, yeah, geopolitical relationships,

528
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: and football is one of the ways that we express

529
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: power among nations. It's one of the ways that nations

530
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: become nations, right. I mean, part of being a nation

531
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: is convincing yourself that you're a nation, but part of

532
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 2: being a nation is convincing other people that you're a

533
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: nation and having a football federation and being able to

534
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: feel the team that can compete in FIFA sanctioned competitions

535
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: as part of what being a country is.

536
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: Yea. And so I think that there's no separating this

537
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: stuff out, which means there is no leaving politics out

538
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: of football that simply doesn't exist. It's like leaving money

539
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: out of football. It's like it's already there. Yeah, I

540
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: wouldn't mention one thing because you said something really interesting, John,

541
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: This idea of like convincing yourself that you are a nation,

542
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: I think it's particularly true. I think this is one

543
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: of the things that's going to make a World Cup

544
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: in the United States is very interesting. Despite attempts to

545
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: change this, the United States is a country of immigrants,

546
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: and I think as an immigrant, I can say that

547
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: latching on to the Peruvian national team was always a

548
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: way of asserting my identity and understanding where I fit.

549
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: You know, and I've written about this before, but there

550
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: are times when you're growing up in the United States

551
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: where you don't feel like you fit in anywhere, and

552
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: then you want to be closer to the country of

553
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: your birth or the country of your parents' birth, but

554
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: you don't quite know. You don't understand the politics, maybe

555
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: you don't speak the language perfectly, and so you're sort

556
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: of wandering through adolescence in this way where you're trying

557
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: to figure out where you where you fit in, and

558
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: who you are. But for the ninety minutes in which

559
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: you can you know, stand in the stadium cheering, singing

560
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: the songs, or watching the TV and you know, wearing

561
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: the jersey. It's very simple. It's very simple, and it

562
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: feels really good, you know. Unfortunately it also feels really bad,

563
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: especially if you're proving, because mostly we lose. However, so

564
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: much suffering. Yeah, but even that suffering is like this this. Uh,

565
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: you know, you're joining a community of sufferers and of

566
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: people who suffer along with you. You always have when

567
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: you get into a taxi and lima something to talk

568
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: about with the driver or with you know, with whoever

569
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: you might come across, and there is this kind of

570
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: shared sense that in other situations you might not have.

571
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that's super interesting to me,

572
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: and I can speak from personal experience. It has been

573
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: fundamental to sort of shaping who I am or who

574
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: have become. Reminds me of a line from Ulysses where

575
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: Bloom has asked what a nation is, and Bloom says

576
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: a nation is the same people in the same place,

577
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: and then he pauses and says, there are also other places. Yeah, exactly.

578
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: Come for the discussion on world football, Stay for the

579
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: Ulysses quotes. Should we take a quick break and come back,

580
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: let's do it.

581
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: I want to tell you a story, Daniel, about club football,

582
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: about a little team that could called Carlisle United. So

583
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: Carlisle United have a long proud history, not currently, but

584
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: at the time had a long proud history of being

585
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: in the Football League, which is the top four divisions

586
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: of English soccer. Okay, so in English football, the top

587
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: four divisions are considered full time professional divisions, and then

588
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: below that you up what's called non league football, which

589
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: is ostensibly amateur, although some of the teams are professional,

590
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: and Carlile United had been continually in the Football League

591
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: for I believe over one hundred years by nineteen ninety nine,

592
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: when they were one game away from being relegated out

593
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: of being a full time professional team. Of course, the

594
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: other thing that being a full time professional team in

595
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: England means for you is that you're part of the

596
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: video game FIFA or now EAFC, and so if you're

597
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: not in the top four divisions, then you're not part

598
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: of that video game, which does hurt your revenue a

599
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: lot and your reputation, and generally it just means that

600
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: people can't play as you you know, so like people

601
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: can't live the dream of taking Carlile United all the

602
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: way to the Champions League. So Carlile United has this long,

603
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: proud history of being a professional team in England. It's

604
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: the only team in their town and they're one game

605
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: away from being relegated out and they have a brand

606
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: new goalkeeper who's only played two games for them. He's

607
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: on loan from Swindon Town because their regular goalkeeper got hurt.

608
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: His name is Jimmy Glass. Today Jimmy Glass sells insurance.

609
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: It's not like you make a lot of money being

610
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: a fourth tier English goalkeeper, but that that's the story.

611
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: This is the story, this is the setup.

612
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: The game is incredibly intense because when your whole, the

613
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: whole future of your football club is riding on one game,

614
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: it also feels like on some level, the whole future

615
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: of your community is riding on one game, right. I mean,

616
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: there are so many little towns in England that have

617
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: these teams in the third or fourth division and it's

618
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: a huge part of the identity of the town that

619
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: they have a team in England's professional leagues. A lot

620
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: of these towns, you know, it's common to say these

621
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: days that outside of London, England is poorer than Mississippi.

622
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: And it's true. I mean a lot of these towns

623
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: are part on their luck and have been through a lot,

624
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: et cetera.

625
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: And so Jimmy Glass is playing this game for Carlile United.

626
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: The game ends one to one. Okay, are you still there, Daniel, Yeah, yeah,

627
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm riveted. I can't wait to see what happens to Jimmy.

628
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: All Right, they're playing Plymouth Argyle. It's one to one.

629
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: They have to win. There are only ten seconds left

630
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: in the game. Carlyle United win a corner kick. Okay,

631
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: So Jimmy Glass looks over to the coach and the

632
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: coaches like, just go up there, Just go up there.

633
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: You see this all the time in football, in the

634
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: last second in a must win match, where it doesn't

635
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: matter if you lose the goalkeeper or how many goals

636
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: you lose, buy or whatever, the goalkeeper will come up.

637
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: It never works, like it works one time out of

638
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: ten thousand. Maybe it certainly never works in like fourth

639
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: tier English football, where frankly the quality of the goalkeepers

640
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: is not great. So Jimmy Glass comes up, Carlile United

641
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: kick the corner kick. It sort of bounces around in

642
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: the box for a second and then the ball falls

643
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: at the half volley to Jimmy Glass, a man not

644
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: known for his footwork. He is a professional goalkeeper, and

645
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: he kicks the ball straight into the back of the

646
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: Plymouth Argyle net and instantly becomes a hero in Carlisle

647
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: United lore, such that he will never have to buy

648
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: a drink again. He will never He saved this football

649
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: club after three games with them with a kick with

650
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: a goal, the one thing the goalkeepers aren't supposed to do.

651
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: And I just I love this story because it reminds

652
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: me that at any moment, all things are possible, Like

653
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 1: in that moment with ten seconds left, like when there

654
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: was no hope, there was still hope, and that hope

655
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: isn't always rewarded, but hope is always justified. Hope is

656
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: always the correct response to the moment. The reason Saudiomane

657
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: was right to tell the players let's get back on

658
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: the pitch wasn't just because it was the right thing

659
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: to do and the sportsman like thing to do. It

660
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,959
Speaker 1: was also because there was still hope. And then in fact,

661
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: in that case, the hope was rewarded in Senegal went

662
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: on to win the African Cup of Nations. In this case,

663
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: the hope was rewarded and Jimmy Glass went on to

664
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: become a hero for Carlisle United. And this is what

665
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: I love about football in the end, is that it

666
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: reminds me over and over again that hope is correct.

667
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 3: Ah.

668
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that I have a counterpoint though,

669
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: all right, give it to me, give me the proving

670
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: counterpoint where hope is never just no, no, no no.

671
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about relegation, which I should say.

672
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: You know, the United States, we don't have relegation right

673
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: in our professional leagues, and I think we should. Oh yeah,

674
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 1: I think it adds another level of intrigue that it's

675
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: just so exciting. But so there's a story that I

676
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: reported many years ago. River Plate, one of the biggest

677
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: clubs in South America, team from Buenos Aires, had to

678
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: play you know, they had a few miserable years and

679
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 1: they were going to be relegated. The Argentine legue actually

680
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: changed the rules to make it harder for him be relegated,

681
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: but they still ended up being in a playoff where

682
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: they had to be relegated. They had to sort of

683
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: win to be to avoid relegation, and they went down

684
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: and they were they were losing, and something happened that

685
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: was really extraordinary, which was that the announcer for the team,

686
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: a guy named that Tilio Costa Febre on national radio

687
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: Radiomitre in Buenos Aires, was calling the game. And then

688
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: when it was clear that Riverplay was going to lose,

689
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: the Riverplay was going to be relegated, something which had

690
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: never happened. Imagine the New York Yankees having to play

691
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: in a you know, in a in a in a

692
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: farm league or minor league baseball or something. Stopped narrating

693
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: the game and started basically ranting. And we interviewed him

694
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: about it later because it was such a remarkable rant.

695
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: He basically started talking about the directors of the club,

696
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: how they'd screwed everyone over. He kept calling them ratstas wow,

697
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, you know, like ker seeing on

698
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 1: national radio for the last ten twelve minutes of the game,

699
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful piece of found

700
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 1: poetry and an expression of rage, of love for the club,

701
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: of the desire to succeed, the club succeed, and of

702
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: this enchantment. We talked to him about it later and

703
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: he said that he was only saying what he imagined

704
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: every fan wanted to say, but they didn't have the

705
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: mic and he did, and so there was no Jimmy

706
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: Glass to save them. Then river Plate got back up

707
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 1: to first division. Actually interesting side note. You remember Theresa Gez,

708
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: the French player. Yeah, of course he had Argentine roots.

709
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: He actually went back to play with river Plate to

710
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: help them come back up, which is a really remarkable

711
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: coda to his career. Anyway, they made it back up.

712
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: You can still hear coast Or on the radio, I

713
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: believe in Argentina calling riverplayed games. But he says something

714
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: that stuck with me, which I think historians would quibble with.

715
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: But just so you understand how important club soccer is,

716
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: or you know, can be, not just an Artina, but

717
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: all over the world. He said. He told us in

718
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: the interview that the relegation of river Plate to the

719
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: second division was one of the fifteen most important events

720
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: in Argentine history. And he said it like stone cold straight,

721
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: like he wasn't There's no irony in his voice. He

722
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: wasn't kidding. He meant it, and I kind of love

723
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: him for that, you know, I love him for that.

724
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's my counterpoint, No Jimmy Glass to save

725
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 1: River Plate at that time.

726
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: It's true, it's not always. It's that's the thing about hope, right,

727
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: is that usually it doesn't work out, and in fact,

728
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 2: like somebody has to be relegated, right, Carlisle United's amazing

729
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: day with somebody else's disastrous day. Yeah, And that reminds

730
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: you that whether or not something is good news always

731
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: depends on where you're situated. But yeah, I like the

732
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: story be kaind is. For Carlo United fans, it was

733
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: as close to a miracle as they're ever likely to

734
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 2: see in their lives.

735
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's beautiful. It's beautiful those moments of sport.

736
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: And it's also exciting to think what those moments might

737
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: be that we're going to see this summer. That's the world. Yeah.

738
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: I hope we see some I hope we see some

739
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: last minute goals. I hope we see Landon Donovan breaking away,

740
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: scoring on the rebound. I mean that this is good.

741
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: That's as good as I've ever felt as as an America.

742
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: Now I have to tell you that I feel very

743
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: distant from that feeling at the moment.

744
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: You know. My favorite, both my favorite and the most

745
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: heartbreaking was the Belgium goal against Japan. Japan they were drawing,

746
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: they were going to go to extra time, and Japan

747
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: had a corner kick, and the reasonable sensible thing to do,

748
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,959
Speaker 1: taking into account the state of play in the game

749
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: in the ninety something minute of extra time, was to

750
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: kick it short and just run out the clock and

751
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: just sort of live to fight another day and go

752
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: to extra time. Instead, they whipped it into the center

753
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: of the park and center of the of the goal.

754
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: The Belgian goalkeeper caught it and there was a fast

755
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: break on and uh it ended up with the with

756
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: Lukaku scoring and that was it and Japan was knocked out.

757
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: And I always admired the bravery of the Japanese players, like, okay, sure,

758
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: let's just you know, put this ball in the center,

759
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: and these giant Belgian defenders were definitely going to score

760
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: aheader here and win and then getting punished for that. Hope.

761
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: So I guess I've I've kind of given two examples

762
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: of the opposite of hope. But I believe, and I

763
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: love the phrase, and I want to just sort of

764
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: like rescue that phrase from my own grim defeatism, that

765
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: hope is is what was it again? Hope is always justify.

766
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: Hope is always justified, even if it's not always rewarded exactly.

767
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: That's nice. That's nice. We should leave our listeners with

768
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: that before I say something else depressing, or if you

769
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: have another quote from Ulysses, we can end there.

770
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: No, I think I think I'll save my other Ulysses

771
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 2: quotes for future episodes. We should say before we go,

772
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 2: Daniel and I have decided upon stakes for our bet,

773
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 2: and Sean, you might want to come back on because

774
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: this involves you. We are laying out who we think

775
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: will win the tournament, who we think the semi finalists

776
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: will be, who we think the Golden Boot winner will be,

777
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 2: et cetera. And then all of that will be scored

778
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 2: one point per correct answer, and the loser has to

779
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 2: put the other person's name in their next book, unless

780
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: Sean wins, in which case both Daniel and I have

781
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: to put Shawn's name in our next book.

782
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: Can I tell you that I think Sean is the

783
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: favorite here? Sean is absolutely the favorite, Because you know,

784
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: you can sometimes be hampered by knowledge Sean, you can

785
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: be you know, you know too much. Yeah, be like

786
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: Daniel's son who thinks that the final is going to

787
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: between Columbia and the US. You know what, He's going

788
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: to prove us all. We're gonna look like crazy ones. Sean,

789
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 1: what do you think.

790
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 3: I should warn you guys that I'm writing some momentum

791
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 3: right now of just winning my work fantasy football league.

792
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow, congratulations? Would you win? Thank you? Novel in

793
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 1: your name.

794
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 3: A financial amount that I won't disclose here. But yeah,

795
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 3: I hadn't even thought that I will be doing a

796
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 3: bracket as well, But now I'm very excited to work

797
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 3: on my bracket.

798
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: Sounds good. Sounds good. I'm excited too.

799
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: I'm excited to have to find a way to put

800
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: Shawn's name in my next book. There are a lot

801
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: of characters. Usually I write books with like four characters.

802
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: This book has a lot of named characters, so I

803
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: feel like I could do it. I could make you

804
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,959
Speaker 2: like the head of the studio, Sean. It's a Hollywood novel,

805
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: so I could make you like the head of the

806
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 2: movie studio.

807
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. That's perfect. I'm glad

808
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: you're writing another novel. John. I thought last time we

809
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: spoke you were going to become a full time tuberculosis reporter.

810
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: Well, I definitely am still a full time tuberculosis guy.

811
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: It's just that now I write novels for fun.

812
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: Good, good for you. That's the only reason to write novels.

813
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: I will say that we're going to work on the

814
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: details of this. There will be a bracket, there's we

815
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: also have had it. I created two categories which are

816
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: very subjective, Biggest Flop and Biggest Surprise, which I think

817
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: might be too subjective to include, but I want to

818
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: keep them anyway, because you know, we can always go

819
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: to Var on that one. Yeah, if we have to

820
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: go to Var, we'll go to Kurt. Yeah sounds good. Yeah,

821
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: all right, Well that's it. Thanks Sean for joining us.

822
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 1: Thanks also to our producer Kurt Garren. Thanks to everyone

823
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: at iHeart John, Thank you so much. Been fun to

824
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: see you next episode. Thanks for listening. Everybody, Take care,