1 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: What's that at the bed? It's spooky. Hey, I'm pretty 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: sure it's dead. It's coming, it's way Wait a minute, 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: I'm goad Hiras dressed. Hey boo, it's me Roz. I 4 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: feel like I need to like do that thing for 5 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: like new people because I always forget. I'm so sorry, 6 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: I always forget, but we always get new people listening 7 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: to the show. So, hey, welcome, I'm Roz, the host. 8 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: She hears slash. They then pronounced, and uh, go back 9 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: and listen to the old episodes. They're all still up 10 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: in the feed wherever you get this podcast. And we've 11 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: had over one hundred interviews now with paranormal professionals and 12 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: celebrities and Quinn's and psychics and listeners and all kinds 13 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: of people. So I hope you subscribe to the show 14 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: and enjoy. Okay, one thing I wanted to pass along 15 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: here before we get into part two with Michelle Belja 16 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: the Demon episode. I saw this this story that was 17 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: making a little bit of headlines. And this particular article 18 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: is from NBC Miami. There is a haunted jail for 19 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: sale in Florida. Oh, Florida. Okay, so this place, it 20 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: is the property surrounding the old Gilchrist County Jail, which 21 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: opened in nineteen twenty eight and operated for forty years. 22 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Somewhat dilapidated, the interior is well preserved. The original sell doors, bunks, 23 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: and bath fixtures are in place. There's no running water, 24 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: though the jail portion has no electricity. Okay, how much 25 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: are they asking? A little more than two thousand square feet? 26 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: One hundred and forty thousand dollars? Okay, this is the 27 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: part that I liked. Arlene Hale's husband bought the jail 28 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: for her as a birthday present a dozen years ago, 29 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: paying thirty thousand dollars for it. First of all, that's 30 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: an amazing birthday present. I love a husband buying his 31 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: wife Arlene a haunted, dilapidated jail for thirty thousand dollars. 32 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: But hey, that could be a real good I mean, 33 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty thousand dollars is what they're asking now. 34 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: That could be a good investment. So they've had lots 35 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: of paranormal investigations here inmates and the ghost of a 36 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: man that was murdered there in two thousand and eight 37 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: are most often reported. Unexplained voices, shadowy figures, and sensations 38 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: of being have been reported. Classic The seventy three year 39 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: old said it's become too difficult for her to keep 40 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: up with the property, but she is hoping to strike 41 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: a deal with the new owners so she can still 42 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: court other paranormal enthusiasts there from time to time. So 43 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: that was one thing I read in one of these 44 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: articles about this place was, you know, whoever buys it, 45 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: It's like that could be a good side hustle, having 46 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: people come in there and do some paranormal investigating. I 47 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: don't know, look it up for yourself. There's some photos 48 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: out there and it looks terrifying, but I don't know. 49 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: My birthday is in October. If anyone wants to buy 50 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: it from my birthday, I don't know. Anyway. We have 51 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: got Michelle Betja on the podcast today and I was 52 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: so happy to hear from so many of you that 53 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: how much you loved Part one. Now Part one was, 54 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, a different conversation than what we talk about today. 55 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: We talk about all kinds of stuff, but definitely a 56 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: focus on demons and as always patreon dot com slash 57 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: roles Dressfuls. You can find that link also in the 58 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: description of this episode, I have some more We have 59 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: a little clip on there of me my with my 60 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: typical concern about am I allowed to joke about demons 61 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: or will I become possessed? And Michelle gives me some 62 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: great insight on that, and also we talk about how 63 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: common demonic possession is, which of course is another fear 64 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: of mine. You know, it's all this stuff where I'm like, 65 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: I'm not I don't want to mess with demons because 66 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: they might make me, you know, vomit, pece soup everywhere 67 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: or whatever. But I feel so much better talking to 68 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: Michelle after after this conversation. I feel so much better 69 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: about about demons. That's a weird thing to say, but 70 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm I don't feel that I'm in constant fear, and 71 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm just building a list of people that I could 72 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: call if ever it becomes a problem. And I hope 73 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: that you feel that way too, And I hope that 74 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: you follow these people that are on the show and 75 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 1: keep up with them, and Michelle will tell you everything 76 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: that she has going on at the end of the episode, 77 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: and definitely check out Michelle and all other things she does. 78 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: Another thing on patreon dot com. Sus Ross DRESSVALSSA my 79 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: first here. I always have my fun little videos every week, 80 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: and this week, Okay, this was a real doozy for me. 81 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: I don't even know how this happened, but somehow I 82 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: caught wind of the fact that Butch Patrick, aka the 83 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: actor that played Eddie Munster on the TV show The Monsters, 84 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: was going to be doing an autograph signing at this 85 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: place that I've always wanted to go to called the 86 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: Valley Relics Museum, which is a museum in the San 87 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: Fernando Valley here in Los Angeles. And it's just like 88 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: all I've seen people post there and it just looks 89 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: really cool. It's like a bunch of old Neon signs 90 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: of different businesses that used to be in the San 91 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: Fernando Valley and lots of like movie memorabilia and just 92 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: like cool just stuff which I love, and like all 93 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: these pinball machines and just like fun stuff to look at. 94 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: So I went there and I got to meet Eddie 95 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: Munster and took a picture, got an autograph. So I 96 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: made a little video of me and my friend Johnny 97 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: doing that this weekend. But the best part was I 98 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: just so happened to you know, as I always do 99 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: ask people like, oh, do you believe in ghosts? Whatever? 100 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: I asked, but Patrick and turns out but Patrick lived 101 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: in a haunted house and starts pulling out his phone 102 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: and showing me videos of the ghosts that lived in 103 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: that house. And he was nice enough to let me 104 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: videotape his camera his phone as he was doing that, 105 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: and I was like, would you ever want to come 106 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: on my podcast? And he was like, yeah, so, I 107 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: don't know. Hopefully we'll be able to make it work. 108 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: I'm working on it. But I thought that was kind 109 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: of cool. Eddie Munster. I love the Monsters. Okay, now 110 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: the Monsters. If you watch The Monsters, yes, it's a 111 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: sitcom from the sixties, so sometimes the jokes, you're like, okay, 112 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: I ever heard that joke a thousand times, But then 113 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: you have to always keep in mind like, okay, but 114 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: back in the sixties, like this was like these jokes 115 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: were incredible. But I don't necessarily just go there for 116 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: the jokes. I just love I just love the Monsters. 117 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: It's just so fun and kitchy and honestly, the theme 118 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: song of this show is kind of inspired by the 119 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: theme song to the Monsters. That was certainly one of 120 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: the references that I wanted to try to conjure a 121 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: bit with the song. So I don't know, I just 122 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: love the Monsters, so I thought it was fun. So 123 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: you can see a little video of that on Patreon 124 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: this week, and I guess it's about it for the 125 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: top of this show. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. 126 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: Continued conversation with Michelle Belonga and with the show, can 127 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: we talk about demons? 128 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, It's a fun week to talk about demons. 129 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: I mean, how about that music video. 130 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I actually was planning to ask you 131 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: about that as well. 132 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: Well. 133 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: First of all, for anyone that may not know, you 134 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: have written a kind of like the definitive The Dictionary 135 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: of Demons, which recently had its tenth anniversary re release. Congratulations. 136 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got hardback for the first time in my 137 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: entire writing career. It's pretty cool. 138 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: Well, you've written like a billion, But how many books 139 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: have you written, sir? 140 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: Something? And I yeah, it depends on if I count. 141 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: It depends on what types of publications I count, because 142 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 2: I've actually been publishing since like ninety one. Amazing, And yeah, 143 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: under some pen names, and yeah, it will broadly say thirty. 144 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I was I was thinking about Satanic panic, 145 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: because like, Satanic panic is making a comeback. And yeah, 146 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: this little nas Ex music video where he's giving a 147 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: lap dance to Satan and Okay, I have a lot 148 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: of demon questions, but yeah, what are you? What are you? 149 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on on that Satanic panic situation? 150 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: Well, what I will say about the music video is 151 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: I think it is a brilliant work of art to 152 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: basically say, you're gonna call me evil for my queerness, 153 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: for my blackness, you're gonna make me a demon, I 154 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: will show you a demon. It is so sassy, and 155 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: it is so I mean, it's it takes all of 156 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,599 Speaker 2: those expectations and it just shoves them right back in 157 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: people's faces and it owns it in a way that 158 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: is incredibly liberating. And man, the haters do not get it, like, 159 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: they just do not get it well. 160 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: And I think that that's part of the problem with demons. 161 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: And I struggle with this too. Being raised Catholic, I 162 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: don't at all identify as a Catholic, but it's like 163 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: so deep in my brain this idea of like you 164 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: don't mess with the devil. And I mean, I'm not 165 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: offended by at all by Lona's ex but I understand 166 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: that that is so deep in our culture and a 167 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: lot of people's upbringings and practice to this day. I 168 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: understand that. But demons, demons, demons, Okay, I mean, is 169 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 1: there a devil? Is that a thing is? 170 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: Does it work it? Well? One it? I need to 171 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: separate it from what people's beliefs are and how those 172 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 2: are important to people's religious or spiritual paths. And then 173 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: you know, me talking as the academic who's got a 174 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: degree in comparative religious studies and has read Samerian and 175 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: Babylonian stuff on down, you know, is there a devil 176 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 2: in the sense of some personified force of evil? Who 177 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: is I don't know, at odds with God and trying 178 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: to like involved in some war for human souls. That's 179 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: true to a number of world religions. And I don't 180 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: want to attack what people believe. And one of the 181 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: reasons that I went into what I did at my 182 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: Catholic college was I wanted to see, like, why do 183 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: we believe these things? Where did these beliefs come from? 184 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: What's the history of these stories and these myths. And 185 00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: one of the things that I've learned is from the 186 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 2: academic side of it, is most of our ideas of 187 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 2: demons like they're not even Christians got their demonology and 188 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: angelology from Jews. Jews got a lot of their stuff, 189 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: if not all of it, from the Babylonians and the 190 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: Sumerians and from the cultural know you of the ancient 191 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: Middle East. And these ideas of these beings go back 192 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: so much further than the concept of heaven and hell, damnation, redemption, 193 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 2: and it is it is a journey for these beliefs 194 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: to get to where they're at now. 195 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: And we have been getting in a lap dance from 196 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: Little Life. 197 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: Lap dance with Satan, like the whole war in Heaven 198 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: and all of that stuff, like the things that we 199 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: think of as this is just what the devil is, 200 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 2: Like Satan is, Satan has horns, and Satan is red, 201 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 2: and Satan has that funny tale with the weird little 202 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: bit on the end. But at the same time he's 203 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 2: also Lucifer morning star, like the brightest of angels, and 204 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 2: oh how he has fallen, and there's some great hubrious 205 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: and rebellion. The war in Heaven, you know, third of 206 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 2: the Angels fell YadA, YadA, YadA. All of that is 207 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: so many different streams that have been braided together, both 208 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: in biblical texts, texts that are adjacent to biblical writings, 209 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: but then also what we would probably in this day 210 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: think of as biblical fan fiction, but at the time 211 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 2: it was you know, Dante's Inferno, Milton's Paradise Loss, the 212 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: stories that people told inspired by what they were reading 213 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: and in their interpretation of what Lucifer was and what 214 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: Satan was, and all of that has this rich spice 215 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: added into it from all of the different indigenous belief 216 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: systems that Christianity colonized kind of going off of I mean, 217 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 2: once Rome became a Christian state, Rome, which were as 218 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: far as like you know, our European ancestors were concerned, 219 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: like Rome was pretty much like the king of colonizers, 220 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: like they pretty much set the state with the gold 221 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: standard for it. And religion was a significant part of 222 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: the Roman states, so you needed to if you are 223 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: a Roman colony, follow the Roman religion. Well, originally that 224 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: was a pagan religion. Once it gets switched to a 225 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: Christian religion, once it's the church you, doesn't matter who 226 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: you are, doesn't matter what your original beliefs were. You 227 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: have to bow to the power of Rome. And the 228 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: best way to do that was to assimilate maybe a 229 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: few things, like you know, your your local mother goddess 230 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: might become a saint like bridget Saint bridget Is is 231 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: very much a Celtic goddess who just got sainted because 232 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: they couldn't get rid of her any other way. And 233 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: if there was a competing god, usually a male god, 234 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: they demonized him, They turned him into a to some 235 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: aspect of the devil, and so many qualities from the 236 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: shaggy goat legs and the hooves that we get from 237 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: Pan to that weird tale that almost certainly comes from 238 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: the Egyptian god set the horns, the red like all 239 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: of it. Like there's different pieces and aspects that have 240 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: been assimilated from all these different deities that Yahweh couldn't 241 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: deal with as competition. 242 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: I think where I'm at with it right now is 243 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: that there is that there are these forces that exist, 244 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: and I think it's kind of like a matter of 245 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: semantics or you know, just believes that it is different 246 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: things for different people. But nonetheless the same thing. What 247 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: about that? Is that a thing? 248 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: Okay? Oh no, No, that's that's a different like is 249 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: there a devil versus? Is there a Are there such 250 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: things as demons? Those are honestly two different questions. 251 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: Ah right, okay, because. 252 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 2: The devil Satan, lucifer like, these are monolithic entities that 253 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: have very specific places in belief systems. And while demons 254 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: kind of do. They're they're a little they're simultaneously more 255 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: complex but also less pivotal to especially the eschatology of Christianity, 256 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: which is sort of like our are our mains are 257 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: our mainstream thing that you know, you and I are 258 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: working in anyway. Uh So, digging through historical stuff just 259 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: from like the folklore and myth. The idea of demons 260 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 2: is these spirits that are not human maybe somewhere, and 261 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: they're not necessarily gods. They're somewhere in between humans and gods, 262 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: but they are agents of chaos and destruction and disease, 263 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 2: and they, for one reason or another bring difficult things 264 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 2: into the realm of mortals. Like that is an ancient 265 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,239 Speaker 2: concept and it has been retained as a thread. And 266 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 2: this is where I step out of me as the 267 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: academic and the scholar to me as the paranal investigator 268 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: and the person who's experienced stuff, and make that distinction 269 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: to say, I have definitely been present for witness and 270 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 2: interact with on rare occasions some things that I don't 271 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: know what other label would be applied beyond. 272 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: That, what is that activity? 273 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: Like oh, weird? 274 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: Dark? Like you know, would you say it is an 275 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: overwhelming feeling of just nothing but bad. 276 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: As a paranoral investigator, for me to even hesitantly bring 277 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 2: up the word demon, I've got a strict kind of checklist, 278 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 2: and that checklist involves it has to be intelligent. It 279 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 2: has to be something that doesn't seem like it was 280 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: ever human. It's not like Uncle Bob, who was an 281 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: alcoholic and is just kind of an asshole in death. 282 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 2: It's got a very different feel from people, and it 283 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: feels old and bigger than us. So intelligent, non human, 284 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: demonstrably malevolent, not just mischievous, not just misunderstood, not trying 285 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: so hard to communicate that people are freaking out because 286 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: things are happening, but like it's causing harm knowingly and 287 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: seems to really enjoy what it's doing. And then sort 288 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: of the final part of that is a fixation on 289 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 2: doing that to people that you know, it's not just 290 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: some big spooky thing in the woods, but this thing 291 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 2: has seek has sought out one or more people in 292 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: order to torment them because it like. 293 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: Two and with these do we say entities or being sure? 294 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really try to like play down the demon 295 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 2: word because I think it does get tossed out too 296 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: much into Yeah, especially in parental investigation, Like it's the 297 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: easiest way to get a thrill and like a jump 298 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: scare as you go to like the commercial break. 299 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: Yes, our culture loves it. I mean it's the scariest 300 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: thing imaginable to a lot of people. Yeah, But I mean, 301 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: is it when you've encountered these these are specifically entities 302 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: or whatever that it's not like you can sit down 303 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: and go, hey, you know, is it are you having 304 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: a bad day? You can't. You can't. You can't reason 305 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: with them. You can't you can't flip them, you can't 306 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: change them. They are here for bad and that's what 307 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: they will do, right. 308 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's really no reasoning with them. They don't operate 309 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: on like psychology that you can figure out. It's certainly 310 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: not that's a whole non human aspect, like they don't 311 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 2: have human motivations, and trying to communicate with them from 312 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 2: our perspective is really freaking hard. And most of the 313 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: time they just don't care because they realize that if 314 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 2: they wait long enough, you're not going to be there anymore. 315 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 2: Like they don't they can just keep doing what they're doing. 316 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: So would you be willing to share, like where you've 317 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: experienced or what it was, what the activity was like, 318 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: or any of them. 319 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a couple. So when I worked on 320 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: Paranormal State, I had actually made a specific request to 321 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: not be called in on any of the cases that 322 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: they thought were demonic. And then this wasn't because I 323 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 2: didn't want to work with that sort of stuff, but 324 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 2: it was more that I didn't always agree with the 325 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: assessment and I did not want to be that person 326 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 2: on camera that was just fighting with everyone going, no, guys, 327 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 2: it's not a demon Like. I just didn't want to 328 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: have to get into it. But there were a few 329 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: instances where there was no better word. We were in 330 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: I think we had we were like right on the 331 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: border between Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Bucks County comes to 332 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: Mine Burlington New Jersey comes to mind, like somewhere in 333 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: that area, I was on a case that was not demonic, 334 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: and since we were close enough, Father Bob was on 335 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: a case that they thought was demonic. And because Father 336 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: Bob was really dedicated to trying to help the family, 337 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 2: like that was a big thing that we did. Like 338 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 2: so we would do stuff that wasn't even getting filmed, 339 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 2: like we had the official hours that we were putting in, 340 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: but if bad stuff was still happening to the family, 341 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: sometimes we would just go over there and help camera 342 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 2: crew or no camera crew. And Father Bob asked me 343 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 2: because I won't say that fluent in Latin, and it 344 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: was astounding to me as someone who was raised Catholic, 345 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 2: that I knew Latin better than a Catholic priest. But 346 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 2: they don't teach them that anymore. 347 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not really much these stories. 348 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, So he was feeling a little out of his 349 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 2: depth because he felt that there were there was some 350 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: Latin that was coming through. So he wanted me to 351 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: sit in on his exorcism of what was going on 352 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 2: and basically listen and see what I heard for the 353 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: interaction as basically having a second pair of eyes for 354 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: what he thought he was experiencing. And when they talk about, 355 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: you know, cases of possession where a person's face changes, 356 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: and that makes really great gripping movie stuff. It is 357 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: creepy as hell on the screen. But you know, something 358 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 2: in the back of your head goes not can't really 359 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 2: happen like that, Like physics and in physiology tells us 360 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: people's faces can't change in front of you. That stuff 361 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 2: happens like it's. 362 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: Without botax and fillers and all of that. 363 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, like in a way where like your brain's going, 364 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: this can't actually be real. But what am I looking at? Like? 365 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 2: And and there is a wrongness that there's something about 366 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: the environment that just jumps in uncanny valley, like all 367 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: of your hairs stand up at once. And I know 368 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 2: a lot of people will process like a foul smell, 369 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: but I'm not so sure that that demons stink in 370 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 2: the sense of like they've got a stinky smell. Is 371 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 2: just something seems off when something like that is around, 372 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: and all of your senses are basically clamoring, like however 373 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: you process stuff, everything feels that this is not a 374 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 2: good thing. Yeah, So so that one was that one 375 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 2: was an experience so, yeah, sitting in on some of 376 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: Father Bob's exorcisms. Uh, that was that was a lot. 377 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: Now would you say, uh, you get scared? 378 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: I am either very brave or very dumb, and there's 379 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 2: not a whole lot that scares me. I think some 380 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 2: of it is, you know, we have a lot of 381 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: conversations these days about like being neurodivergent and neuro atypical. Uh, 382 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 2: and maybe it is like the first five years of 383 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 2: my life being in hospitals and lots of things. But 384 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 2: I don't have a much of a startled response. I 385 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 2: respond to a lot of things emotionally quite different from 386 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 2: other people. I'm not spock by by any means, but 387 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: I don't I don't know. I'm much more likely, even 388 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,239 Speaker 2: in that circumstance to just be analyzing what's going on 389 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: and going is this actually happening? Like? What? What? What 390 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 2: is this? What? Like? What is this? 391 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: My God? I could not, I mean it should should? 392 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: Should I be scared of demons? 393 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: The encounters these instances are incredibly rare, That's what I think. Yeah, 394 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: I mean I've been doing let's see, I've been doing 395 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: like active paranormal investigation or haunting resolution since like nineteen 396 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: ninety one. Well, actually, no, like eighty nine. I started 397 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: really early. I was doing stuff for friends in high school. 398 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: I think I can count on one hand on the 399 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 2: fingers of one hand, and I don't think I'm even 400 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: using all of those fingers the number of times that 401 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 2: I've encountered something that I would say, Yeah, I don't 402 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: know what else to call it, but demonic. 403 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: What can you tell me to make me not terrified 404 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: of demons every single night as I go to bed. 405 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: Incredibly rare. Not something that's going to show up just 406 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 2: because you thought about it or just because you were 407 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: afraid of it, Okay, something that even if there's something 408 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: like it is a long standing like wearing a person down, 409 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: like there's multiple steps along that journey where you could 410 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 2: be like, oh no, no, whatever you are, go away, 411 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 2: And it's really only these very extreme circumstances of someone 412 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: who is a special type of vulnerable and that has 413 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 2: a lot to do, usually with their background. Sometimes there 414 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: are addictions like like how wounded they are, how bad 415 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 2: their emotional and mental boundaries have been wound down by 416 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: various things in their life, so highly unlikely for it 417 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: to happen, and certainly you know, a cute little rapper 418 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 2: doing a lap dance for a CGI lucifer. It's not 419 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: going to bring a devil into your life. 420 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: Well what about you know, if you go ghost hunting 421 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: at a place that they that is, believe there's demons there, 422 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: how do you how do you not have it follow 423 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: you home? 424 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: I mean, if there's actually demons there, you're the average 425 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 2: person is going to have such a very like oh 426 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 2: oh oh new new, I don't want to be here, 427 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: that you probably will leave before there's any chance of 428 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 2: you know, quote unquote contagion. And I got to say, 429 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: like the word demon is tossed around like candy in 430 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 2: the parimal and it's just there are a lot of 431 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: things out there, and there are some things that are 432 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: are darker, that are violent, that are mean. Quite a 433 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 2: number of them are dead to humans who just have 434 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: not gotten over their stuff and like frankly need a 435 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: good therapist. Uh. And just because they're dead doesn't mean 436 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: they've stopped being violent, abusive people. And it's easy to 437 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: mistake those for demons, right. I know some people are like, well, no, 438 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: they turn into a demon after death, and I'm like, no, 439 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: they're just the same old. 440 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: Asshole, I turned into a demon. 441 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, some people really do believe that, And I'm like, 442 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: I don't think it really works that way. Like I 443 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 2: can see that, I can see the interpretation of since 444 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: they are a spirit now and they are continuing to 445 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: do the same bad things that we're doing in life. 446 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: I could see where you would kind of go, well, 447 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: that's that's evil by by you know, some people's ideas 448 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 2: of it, but they're not that they lack a lot 449 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 2: of the really kind of uncanny power of the And 450 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: I cannot stress enough, like less than five things I 451 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: can think of that I've dealt with in a career 452 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: since you know, the eighties. If I'm like really being honest, 453 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 2: for how long I've poked around with this stuff? 454 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: What about wee TI boards, like you know, people like 455 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: to talk about that too. 456 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 2: I swear your psychic because I was thinking. 457 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: About a psychic I think, yeah, no. 458 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: No, literally thinking about because the reason I said eighties 459 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: was there was a point where, you know, of course 460 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: sleepovers and teens and you pull out the board, especially 461 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: if anybody's in a weird stuff and inevitably, inevitably there's 462 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 2: some point where either you're talking to the Ouiji board 463 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 2: and it's telling you which of your teachers or virgins. 464 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 2: Maybe that was just my friend group, or it starts 465 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 2: like circling around and around and around. It's like, you know, 466 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: spelling out Satan or demon or something. Everybody like shrieks 467 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: and runs out of the room. So Wiji boards get 468 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: bad rap. And I think that it has a lot 469 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 2: to do with media, and especially with The Exorcist the movie, 470 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 2: and just sort of like the whole way in which 471 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: that was portrayed, and then also the way in which 472 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: Ed and Lorraine Warren kind of picked up the idea 473 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: that certain occult objects were doorways that would invite evil 474 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: stuff into your life, Tarot cards, Wija boards. I worked 475 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: with Lorraine, I met her. I did not get to 476 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: meet Ed. He had passed away already, but you know, 477 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 2: she worked with Ryan, she worked for Paranormal State. We 478 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: had a couple of good conversations. We had a couple 479 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,479 Speaker 2: of hard conversations. We had one very lengthy disagreement on 480 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 2: camera where I don't know where those forty minutes of 481 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 2: film went, and I wish I did because it was 482 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 2: about Ouiji board. 483 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: We love to see that because yeah, she was very Christian, Yeah. 484 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: And very very firm. So we it was Maryland, maybe 485 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: North Carolina, North or South Carolina. In this case, it 486 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 2: was this old farmhouse. It had pomegranates in the back. 487 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: It was a really cute little home. She and I 488 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: were both on it doing psychic stuff. We both separate 489 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: from one another, had identified what room in the house 490 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 2: felt like where the haunting was focused. And in the 491 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: upstairs there was the eldest daughter's room, and both of us, 492 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: independent of one another, had picked up that that room 493 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: felt protected, like of everything else in the house, that 494 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 2: was the one that felt quiet and calm. This is 495 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: important because flash forward to you know, dead time where 496 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: we're actually doing the investigation. Ryan's in there and he 497 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: starts like, news flash, if you've got an investigating team 498 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 2: doing parnimal investigation in your house, we kind of rifle 499 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: through your stuff a little bit, partly to see like 500 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: what are you reading, what influences might you have? Are 501 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: is there evidence of drug use? Like, like what's going 502 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 2: on here? Are there a lot of prescription medicines that 503 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 2: could be an explanation for what people are experiencing? Like 504 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 2: that's part of investigating. And he's in there like trying 505 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: to do the usual thing, but he ended up looking 506 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: under the girls that and what he found in there 507 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: was a wija board and several witchcraft books. Now I 508 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: hadn't told Ryan because I felt earlier that day when 509 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: I was doing the investigation in her room after the 510 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: psychic walked through, there were a couple of things that 511 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: had caught my attention and I wanted to look at 512 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: a little bit more privacy, and one of them was 513 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: a jewelry box that was arranged in a very certain 514 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: way on a little stand in the corner of the 515 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: room that had some crystals and stones around it in 516 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: a way that seemed to me like maybe maybe just 517 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: art and maybe she was practicing something. So I kind 518 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: of poked herund on the jewelry box and sure enough, 519 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: like there was. It was like, okay, she has a 520 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: baby witch. I am not going to out her to 521 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: her Southern Christian family. I'm certainly not going to do 522 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 2: it on camera. But like I noted, this is why 523 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 2: this room feels comfortable. She's got it warded, like she's 524 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: doing practice in here. She's actually like doing things to 525 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: change the energy in this space, and it is her 526 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 2: way of handling this really haunted house, like this room 527 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: is a refuge refuge and part of her practice is 528 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: helping her keep it like that. So I didn't say anything. 529 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: Ran finds a Weiji board, Ryan loses his mind. Lorraine 530 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 2: is just like oh, and she just completely reverses her 531 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: entire reading based on this regiaboard in the girl's room, 532 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 2: like a suddenly, this room is the most haunted room 533 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: in the house. This is clearly why the house is haunted. 534 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 2: And I mean, she is just up and down about it, 535 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: and I finally sit her down. I'm like, okay, barring 536 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: the fact that like the Ouiji board, Okay, even if 537 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: she was using it, can we agree that symbols and 538 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: tools are really kind of in how they are used. 539 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 2: You know, you can use a hammer to nail in 540 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 2: a nail and like build something productive, or you can 541 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: use a hammer in a terrible murder and the hammer 542 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 2: is not at fault in either case. And that's sort 543 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: of where I fall on wigi boards. It's a tool. 544 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 2: It's not much different in essence from what we do 545 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: with a pendulum with dowsing rods. Honestly, with a lot 546 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 2: of the tech in ps, what. 547 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: I always think about I always think about, like if 548 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna do you know an EMF meter or something like. 549 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: I just don't understand why it's so different when it's 550 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: a wiki board purely pr I mean, yeah, because the 551 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: publicis we do no like you've. 552 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: Got like the little like let's let's take a flashlight 553 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 2: and wiggle it in a way so like we want 554 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 2: the spirit to communicate with us through the flashlight. Well, 555 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 2: is the flash light now a portal? Yeah, it's not. Not. 556 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 2: Neither is your ovulus or your K two and all 557 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 2: of those are things the rempod you're using those to 558 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: try to communicate, to give some ability of these non 559 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 2: physical entities to affect something in the physical world. And 560 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 2: the luigiborg just has this huge association with it that 561 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 2: is scary for a lot of people, mostly because of 562 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: pop culture. Right. And at the end of this story, 563 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: after forty minutes of going back and forth with Lorraine 564 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 2: was I did manage to convince her that what we 565 00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: should do is go talk to the daughter and if 566 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: I don't what any of this stuff means to her, 567 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 2: And the end of the story was, Uh, the Ouija 568 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: board and the books had been inherited from I think 569 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 2: it was an odd who had passed away, who was 570 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: a practitioner, and the daughter was a practitioner herself, and 571 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 2: she'd kept those things in honor of her aunt, but 572 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 2: she'd never used any of those. She had her own 573 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: practice going, hadn't even touched the Wigi board. Interesting, Yeah, 574 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: like it was there because it was like it was 575 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: it was a memento. 576 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I mean, so do you do you subscribe 577 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: to the belief that, like that Lorraine Warren belief that like, 578 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: let's say someone did use it to conjure up demons 579 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: or whatever, like, would it Could it still have that 580 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: energy attached to it. 581 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: If they really knew what they were doing. Maybe? But 582 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: the average person using a Ouiji board at best, like 583 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 2: the worst they're going to get is like some little 584 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,959 Speaker 2: mischievous thing that's just like, hey, free energy. Somebody's paying 585 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 2: attention to me. You want me to seem all big 586 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 2: and bad and scary. Sure, I can do that if 587 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: you continue to pay attention to me. 588 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: You know, one story that I hear a lot is 589 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: people thinking that they're talking to maybe a loved one 590 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: or someone that they trust, and then they find out, oh, 591 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: it's starting to get darker and maybe this is a 592 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: demon is usually you know the word that's used. Do 593 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: you know anything about that or do you have any 594 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: thoughts on that? 595 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: I mean, my biggest problem with Wiji boards is less 596 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 2: about whether or not it's a portal to open something 597 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 2: up and more about how they actually work. There's this 598 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 2: phenomena called ideomotor response, so basically there's microemotions in our 599 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: hands and and everything. It's probably what works dowsing rods 600 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 2: and pendulums as well, and it's certainly what is at 601 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 2: work with table tipping and with Wuiji boards. Now that 602 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean that we're not in communication with spirits, 603 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 2: but it does mean that we are also in communication 604 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 2: with our subconscious minds. And what's much more likely to 605 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 2: come through an Ouigi board is what we are worried about, 606 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 2: what we're fearful about, what we are unconsciously like. We're 607 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 2: not consciously pushing it a deeper part of ourselves or 608 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 2: the group who's working on this is influencing where this 609 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 2: thing is moving, which is why, if you it's why 610 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 2: they're so complicated because of the pop cultural portrayals. Even 611 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 2: if people are trying to have a nice conversation with 612 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 2: a dead loved one. There's that little thread of fear, 613 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: There's that persistent Lorraine Warren voice of like, this is 614 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 2: the portal, it's going to get you an attachment. You 615 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: shouldn play with Ouigi board, and once that fear starts 616 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: to happen, our subconscious fears start to come out on 617 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 2: the board. So really, the unreliability of a Wiji board 618 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 2: not being able to know for one hundred percent whether 619 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 2: it is the people sitting and using it who are 620 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: coming through or if it's actually spirits, that's my biggest 621 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:21,800 Speaker 2: problem with them. 622 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: What about sleep paralysis demons, That's what I you know, 623 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: that's another one that's really really gotten. I feel like 624 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: sleep paralysis got a good publicist the past few years. 625 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 2: That one's interesting as someone who's got a psych background, 626 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: I think, first of all, there is absolutely a purely 627 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 2: physiological thing that happens that is almost indistinguishable from having 628 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 2: like a hag attack or something like leaning over you. 629 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 2: We've had a couple of cases where we had to 630 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: investigate to figure out like is this sleep paralysis or 631 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 2: is the person who while they are in the hypnagologic state, 632 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 2: while they're in the dream state, are more sensitive are 633 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 2: more likely to have an experience? Is there actually something 634 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 2: going on? And for me doing investigations like that, I 635 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 2: always ask like, is there only one person having this 636 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: experience or are there multiple people in the residents who 637 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 2: are having similar experiences? Were those people in contact with 638 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 2: one another, did like person A have the experience talk 639 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 2: about it to person B and then person B started 640 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 2: to have it, because that suggests that person be kind 641 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 2: of got led into the experience and it's still just physiological. 642 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: But the next question ends up being are pets responding 643 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 2: to it? When someone's having this experience, is someone who 644 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: is awake, like do they get a sense of something 645 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 2: else in the space? Like are there other things that 646 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: are being seen? And kind of like the gold ticket 647 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: to this is definitely paranormal. Is if someone who's sensitive, 648 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,919 Speaker 2: or even somebody who doesn't think that they're sensitive, goes 649 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 2: into the room where someone is having a sleep paralyss experience, 650 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 2: they don't necessarily know that that's what the person is experiencing, 651 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 2: and they also perceive something in the room that's not 652 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 2: just physiological, Like you can't just project that physiological effect. 653 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 2: It's complicated though, because you know psychic attack, astro vamphorism. 654 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 2: Those are very very similar in effect, like the sort 655 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 2: of being weighed down, the sort of like paralyzed, the 656 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 2: thing hanging over you, sort of sucking your energy, and 657 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: all of that happens purely physiologically with classic night terrorists 658 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 2: and sleep paralysis. 659 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: But you know, and again this might be just a 660 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: matter of words and labels or whatever, but is that 661 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: is it actually demons? Like you know? A lot of 662 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: the time, I don't think so. 663 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 2: And actually, even if you go into the folklore of it, 664 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 2: the terror that comes in the night, I think is 665 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 2: it Doctor David Dolphin. There's a really good sleep paralysis book, 666 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,760 Speaker 2: the Mara the Night Hag to be Hag Ridden, something 667 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 2: that's really telling across a number of folk traditions with 668 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 2: sleep paralysis night terror attacks. They're unpleasant and it's a 669 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 2: dark entity, but it doesn't really seem to fit money 670 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 2: of our classic ideas of demons. If there's an entity 671 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 2: behind it, it seems to be a different sort of thing. 672 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 2: I will say this in the cases that I have 673 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 2: personally investigated where I determined for myself to my own 674 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 2: satisfaction that it was not merely classic physiological night terrors 675 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 2: or sleep paralysis. It was also not what I would 676 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 2: identify as a demon, Okay, And in one case, actually 677 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 2: in a couple of cases, it was a it was 678 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 2: a it was a person several times living, a living 679 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 2: person who was was reaching out to the person who 680 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 2: was asleep in a few cases because that was when 681 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 2: the person was vulnerable. And that's a that's a technique 682 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 2: that can actually be learned. There's a couple of occult 683 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 2: traditions that teach it, where you can you can pray 684 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 2: on someone in their sleep. 685 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,720 Speaker 1: Oh, are you sort of like a out of body 686 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: astral projection type of thing. 687 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is basically experienced by the sleeper in a 688 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 2: way that is almost indistinguishable from night terrors or sleep paralysis. 689 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,439 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Okay. 690 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 2: Which makes it super complicated to try to figure out 691 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,720 Speaker 2: what's actually going on, Like there's so many different possibilities. 692 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: I there's a story that I referenced all the time 693 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: that happened on this podcast. My friend Gunner told this 694 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: story about going to a place, an event where there 695 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: were some people that were he wasn't really quite sure, 696 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: but there was some they were involved in some type 697 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: of a cult practice that seemed dark to him. And 698 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: they At one point one of the people touched him, 699 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: and later that night he experienced that person in his 700 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: dream and it felt real. I mean, do you do 701 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: you know anything about that? 702 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I wrote a whole book on it. It's called 703 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 2: psychic It's called psychic dream walking. It's something that I 704 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 2: both know how to do and like teach in ways 705 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 2: where it can so. One of the most commonly in 706 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 2: the annals of like the Society for Psychical Research all 707 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 2: the way back in like you know, the eighteen hundreds 708 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 2: and whatnot. One of the most commonly reported things, and 709 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 2: even further before that is like a death announcing dream, 710 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 2: where it seems like humans have this innate ability spontaneously 711 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 2: to reach out to one another in dreams or in 712 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 2: that sort of in between state where you're not quite 713 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 2: asleep and you're not quite awake, but your daytime rain 714 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 2: is kind of shut down, so you're more receptive, you 715 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 2: don't think too hard about what you're experiencing. And it's 716 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 2: an ability that many people have spontaneously, but there are 717 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 2: numerous occult and magical traditions that teach how to do this, 718 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,240 Speaker 2: either as a way to communicate, to meet with one another, 719 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 2: to do work together, to pass messages along, or in 720 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,360 Speaker 2: some of the darker traditions, how to reach out to 721 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 2: someone in order to prey on their energy, in order 722 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 2: to take from them, in order to assault them at night. 723 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,800 Speaker 1: It is so scary. 724 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 2: It is scary. So it's also I guess why, I'm like, well, 725 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 2: you know, there are demons, but honestly, some of the 726 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 2: nastiest stuff and the more, much more widespread, is what 727 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 2: people do to one another. 728 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you could do this to somebody. I mean 729 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: obviously not in like a dark way, I'm assuming, but 730 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: you could. You could visit somebody in their. 731 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 2: Dream yeah, and have done like fairly extensive experiments with 732 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 2: it of you know, telling someone that, like, within this 733 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 2: range of weeks, I'm going to try to do this, 734 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 2: and we would keep logs and journals together to see 735 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,839 Speaker 2: if we met up in the dream space. There's some 736 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 2: fascinating similar experiments that had been carried out by various 737 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 2: people over the years, and it's just meat that this 738 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 2: can happen again, sometimes spontaneously. I saw a huge uptick 739 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 2: in in spontaneous versions of it throughout Lockdown because people 740 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 2: were so starved for connection and so starved for like 741 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 2: human contact, that they didn't necessarily think of themselves as 742 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 2: psychic or having this ability, but they would find themselves 743 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,800 Speaker 2: in dreams with one another. Those dreams would feel real. 744 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 2: They would have an exchange something as simple as just 745 00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,439 Speaker 2: sitting down and conversing somewhere, and sometimes something is as 746 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 2: salacious as more than that, and you would be it 747 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,160 Speaker 2: would be memorable. Like like one of those things is 748 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 2: it stands out as this doesn't only feel like a dream, 749 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 2: it's much more tangible in a way that like really 750 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 2: sticks with you when you wake up. Uh. And that's 751 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 2: one of the ways that you can confirm it is 752 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 2: usually both both parties have some pretty key memory, even 753 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:27,759 Speaker 2: if it's an accidental thing. 754 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: That's what I was telling my friends all throughout this 755 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: past year, like let's learn how to ask or project 756 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: and we can go like let's go to Disneyland. Let's 757 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: like let's go, let's go be social. We won't get COVID. 758 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 2: Well, like like dream walking. As for projection, at least, 759 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 2: the way I've always understood it is, you know, you 760 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 2: lay down and you are projecting a part of yourself 761 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 2: out of yourself. You reach a certain a certain sort 762 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 2: of mental state, a vibratory state if you go with 763 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 2: like Robert Monroe's descriptions, and there's death a sense of 764 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 2: projection as like sort of the gateway to this experience. 765 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 2: Dream Walking for me has always been going in to 766 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 2: go out where you are, using the very curious state 767 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 2: of dreams as sort of your your launch pad to 768 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 2: then meet in this other space, to meet in spaces 769 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 2: between where where the flesh can't always go. Interestingly, there's 770 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 2: there's there's always historical stuff that I've dug up on it. 771 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 2: Dream Incubation was something that was widely practiced by the 772 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,400 Speaker 2: Greeks and the folks that came before them. It's actually 773 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 2: where dormitories come from. If you know the story of 774 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 2: Jason and the organ Argonauts and the Golden Fleece. This, 775 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,400 Speaker 2: this golden sheep skin was important because of the practice. 776 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 2: You would lay down on this on the on a 777 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,840 Speaker 2: sacred sheep skin, and you would go to sleep in 778 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 2: order to communicate with the spirits the gods, like in 779 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,520 Speaker 2: the realm of dreams. You know, they believed that there 780 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 2: were some dreams that were just plain on dreams, but 781 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 2: that the dream space itself could be used as a 782 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 2: step between a way of stepping into the realm of spirits, 783 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 2: the realm of the dead, the realm of the gods, 784 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 2: and communing with them. So you would seek out audience, 785 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 2: you would seek answers. It was not uncommon to go 786 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:33,800 Speaker 2: to the tombs of great heroes like Achilles and sleep 787 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 2: on the tomb in the hopes that the soul of 788 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 2: the great warrior would appear to you and speak to 789 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 2: you in dreams. 790 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: You know so many things. You've been so generous through 791 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: your time too. We should probably wrap it up. You've 792 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: given us so much and I really really appreciate it. 793 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,000 Speaker 1: Are you working on any books or anything right now? 794 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 2: I am slowly chipping away at a past life book 795 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 2: on reincarnation and kind of handling past life memories and 796 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,840 Speaker 2: what we do with those. I've had, especially through Lockdown, 797 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:19,360 Speaker 2: just this fantastic, vibrant, supportive community through Patreon. My patreon 798 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 2: is patreon dot com slash Haunted, and I have them 799 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 2: give me ideas of like what's the next book you 800 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 2: want me to work on? But also I do a 801 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 2: lot of classes like that's where I've started to do 802 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 2: all my teaching, and I also started doing during lockdown, 803 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,880 Speaker 2: talking about walking between spaces and learning how to project. 804 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 2: I started what I call a connection ritual, but it's 805 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 2: really a meditation about connection and energy every Saturday, nine 806 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 2: pm Eastern Standard unless otherwise specified, which I livestream now 807 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,000 Speaker 2: on Facebook and YouTube, and it's about ten to fifteen 808 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,320 Speaker 2: minutes of just learning how to get out of yourself 809 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 2: and connect with people no matter where you are at. 810 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,760 Speaker 1: I was also reading on your website the Inspiration House. 811 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,280 Speaker 2: My wife and I bought this one hundred and fifty 812 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 2: year old brick house in Oberlin, Ohio. It is, by 813 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:22,400 Speaker 2: my estimation, quite haunted, but it's like the coziest haunting 814 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:27,000 Speaker 2: that it's basically a whole bunch of old people who 815 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,880 Speaker 2: lived and died in the house and loved it so 816 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,280 Speaker 2: much that they never moved out. And usually with hauntings 817 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,279 Speaker 2: that are this physical, where you are touched, where you 818 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:40,400 Speaker 2: hear things, where things move, where the freakin music boxes 819 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,920 Speaker 2: will just randomly play, or actually not even randomly, like 820 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 2: play as if they're talking to you, usually it's something negative, 821 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 2: and this house just isn't like. It's just a whole 822 00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 2: bunch of old folks that are happy to have some attention. 823 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 2: And I use it as well, pre COVID, I used 824 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,880 Speaker 2: it as kind of a training ground for psychics where 825 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,800 Speaker 2: you could come and we would do weekend retreats and 826 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 2: we'd test our abilities. We'd do workshops and stuff like that. 827 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 2: We'd work on dream walking. People have a lot of 828 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:17,279 Speaker 2: interesting dream experiences there. At the moment, it's available as 829 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 2: an airbnb for folks who want to come and just 830 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 2: do their own solo investigations, and maybe once COVID is 831 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 2: at least handled, we can go back to having classes. 832 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,279 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is so cool. I looked at 833 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:37,840 Speaker 1: the airbnb and it's beautiful. It looks really great. But 834 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,279 Speaker 1: so have these ghosts. They're like really gotten used, Like 835 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 1: I mean with COVID, you know, like are they like 836 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: where is everyone? 837 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say we have. My wife and I 838 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 2: have definitely noticed because the way that we do renting 839 00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,560 Speaker 2: things out with COVID is like we've got like maybe 840 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 2: a weekend and then like we let it stand for 841 00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,160 Speaker 2: a while and then we go and clean everything and 842 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 2: do all the code produ calls with the house standing 843 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,960 Speaker 2: empty for as many months as it did earlier in 844 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 2: Lockdown when we went back. And this is going to 845 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 2: sound creepy, but I don't mean it too, and I 846 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 2: don't think that the spirits meant it too. But it 847 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,920 Speaker 2: felt hungry, like it felt like it needed some attention, 848 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 2: and it was sort of languishing, and we definitely found 849 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,200 Speaker 2: that we were a little tireder and we felt a 850 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,319 Speaker 2: little worn down when we were there, like they they 851 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,919 Speaker 2: not only missed us, but like some essential part of 852 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,640 Speaker 2: like interacting with them, like letting the house be empty 853 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 2: that long, had kind of starved them a little bit. 854 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,799 Speaker 2: Ah yeah, I know. I felt really bad because, like 855 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,560 Speaker 2: I said, it sounds creepy where it's like, oh no, 856 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,279 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure they're just you know, you know, our 857 00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 2: energy right now. And it's just because that's what I mean, 858 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,399 Speaker 2: spirits need an interview too, and they just they did 859 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,160 Speaker 2: not have anybody to interact with for months. It was 860 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,799 Speaker 2: just this, you know, beautiful brick house just kind of 861 00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 2: sitting empty, gathering dust. 862 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,840 Speaker 1: Well, can you tell everyone you know, your your Instagram 863 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,080 Speaker 1: and one more time, your Patreon, your how do you 864 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 1: say it, patrion? I would say Patreon, Patrireon, Patrion. 865 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,800 Speaker 2: It's it's twenty twenty one. Pronounce it, however. 866 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: You okay, yeah, tell everyone all that stuff. I want 867 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: them to, uh, if they don't already you follow you 868 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: to follow you. 869 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,480 Speaker 2: Well, my my Patreon or patron, however you wish to 870 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,720 Speaker 2: pronounce it is haunted, like so patreon dot com slash haunted. 871 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,080 Speaker 2: It's that. That's the one that's the easiest. My Instagram, 872 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,800 Speaker 2: my Facebook, my YouTube, and my Twitter are all under 873 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 2: seth on acheme and that's s E t h A 874 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 2: n I k E e M, which only makes any 875 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,160 Speaker 2: sense if you've read one of my fiction series. But 876 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 2: it's one of those like internet handles that I've had 877 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,359 Speaker 2: so long that it's just easier to keep it than 878 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 2: try to rebrand it. 879 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: And your website too. I should tell. 880 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,960 Speaker 2: Ncheo bio dot com or if you don't speak French, 881 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 2: Michelle Balanger dot com. 882 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,640 Speaker 1: And that's where all the books, you know, people can 883 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 1: find out about all the books and everything. 884 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's pretty much. That's the clearing house of everything. 885 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,600 Speaker 2: There's links to that links to the connection ritual, links 886 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 2: to inspiration house, to the three thousand year old ancient 887 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,800 Speaker 2: incense that I started making because everybody else during lockdown 888 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:20,080 Speaker 2: made sourdough. I decided to make incense like you do. 889 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,480 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Michelle. Go check out everything 890 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,839 Speaker 1: that Michelle is doing. And if you want to hear 891 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:33,880 Speaker 1: more of our conversation, Michelle still gives us even more knowledge, 892 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,760 Speaker 1: so much, oh so nice to give me so much time. 893 00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,839 Speaker 1: You can hear a little bit more on Patreon where 894 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,520 Speaker 1: we talk about demonic possession, we talk about joking about ghosts. 895 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,120 Speaker 1: That is my second tier on patreon dot com slash 896 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,920 Speaker 1: Ross dress False and also the video of me meeting 897 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,959 Speaker 1: Eddie Munster aka but Patrick, the actor that played Eddie 898 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 1: Munster this weekend that's on my first tier of Patreon. 899 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 1: Please subscribe to this podcast and give us five stars. 900 00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: If you have a ghost story, you could leave it 901 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,000 Speaker 1: in a five star review, or you could just say 902 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 1: something nice about me, or just don't say anything. Just 903 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,960 Speaker 1: five stars would be nice. And if you do want 904 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,280 Speaker 1: to be in a listener episode, send me an email 905 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 1: at ghosted by Roz at gmail dot com with the 906 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 1: subject line listener episode and join our Facebook group Ghosted 907 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 1: by Roz dress fALS great place to talk to other 908 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,160 Speaker 1: people that listen to the show, and if you have 909 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 1: a ghost story, another great place to leave one. I 910 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,839 Speaker 1: would love to check those out and follow me on Instagram, 911 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: at Roz Hernandez, and you know all the other places 912 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: that I'm at, I'm everywhere. I love you all, both 913 00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: living and dead. But if I didn't ask you to 914 00:55:49,280 --> 00:56:05,920 Speaker 1: haunt me, don't haunt me. Hey back Star Bands a podcast, 915 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:07,560 Speaker 1: a podcast network,